Word.

How do you arrange dates then? Do you actually ask ladies out over IM?

Your question is infelicitous, Sommer.

Oh Lord, I agree with Ben. Since the electromail has become so pervasive I resent, deeply, the intrusion of the telephonic ringer. Email me, dear petitioner; display the superior courtesy of asynchrony, and you will get a much cheerier response.

Ben is so right. This is why I rarely call anyone: If they really wanted to talk to me, surely they would have called me.

I understand that I can't universalize that, but, seriously, fuck Kant.

You're infelicitous. And I guess I just don't feel the same way. I have friends living far away I would no doubt not be friends with anymore were it not for long telephone conversations.

Those are two different purposes for a phone call, Ben. Do you remember before Hardly Strictly Bluegrass, how we made "plans" to meet? Making plans is faster on the phone; else you have to type out a series of options for the other person to choose among. There is a fair chance the other person will simply choose among those options, and not convey a whole other alternative that would best represent her preferences. Hunting for mutual optimization goes fastest by talking.

I suppose that you could have a straightforward preference for IM over the phone, but I do like hearing my friends' voices.

One of the main things I dislike about talking over the phone (there are many) is that you can hear the person but you can't see them. There's no way to judge their reactions except by tone of voice, which is tricky. E-mail is really just so much less stressful.

(The simplest answer to 3 is that I scheme to do so in person but usually end up emailing—for one thing, I often know email addresses but almost never phone numbers, because knowing a phone number would surely lead to using it, and plus asking for a phone number? fraught! There's a quotation from The Last Gentleman that's relevant here; I think I've quoted it here before but all I'm finding is this old comment. There really is a habit/vicious circle here; for instance, I don't ever eat out at a place I'd bring a date, because I don't like eating at any place that's not totally low-rent alone, so I don't even know what's going on in that regard, so I can't in good faith propose any such thing. The only activities I ingenuously engage in are going to bookstores, concerts, and cafes, the latter either to read or play chess. The question is, as you're learning, infelicitous not only for its unsatisfied presupposition but because it's an invitation for me to whine.)

Yeah, IM has pretty much replaced the phone as far as I'm concerned. I hate the phone. You're either tied to a cord, or else walking around holding some damn thing up to your head, or else giving yourself brain cancer. Short calls to make arrangements or whatever are fine, and I have no problem calling old friends who, for whatever reason, don't use IM, but calling people "just to talk"? Those days are so over.

7: of course once you've made skeletal arrangements hashing things out on the phone is ok; you're essentially cleared in advance for phonal or other communication. You've already got a mutual purpose to accomplish.

I scheme to do so in person but usually end up emailing

In my experience, asking ladies out via e-mail is a decidedly bad idea.

I hate telephones and I feel inconvenienced every time mine rings.

Whatever, b; I call people just to talk. But only certain people. Hour-long conversations can be quite diverting and it's warmer and more congenial for several purposes in several respects than IM.

This is the point: talking on the phone is the last stage of communication in which ease is achieved.

12: IME as well.

I employ a double standard here and am completely happy to accept calls whenever

I'm just the opposite: generally I'm annoyed when the phone rings, because I was probably in the middle of something (see Slol's point about asynchrony), but I love talking to friends on the phone. If they weren't all married and raising children, I'd probably still call most of them a few times a week, just to chat. There are friends I'll call and watch TV with, or surf the net with. Back in the day, there were friends I'd just "hang out" with, doing whatever we were doing, but on the phone. And, contra Teo, tone of voice generally tells you everything you need to know.

Whatever, b; I call people just to talk. But only certain people.

La di da.

That "whenever" means "at whatever stage in my knowing someone".

Am I really so incompetent a writer that my meaning has been utterly obscured? Or perhaps … perhaps you're all just sucky readers, seeking confirmation wherever you can find it for an interpretation that has me saying what you already agree with … I can see why someone would expend a lot of energy in trying to position me on his or her side, owing to my eminence in every field …

And, contra Teo, tone of voice generally tells you everything you need to know.

At least in theory, I'm with ogged on this. Tone can be hard in text, and asynchronous communication makes it impossible to be sure that you were understood properly.

... and great success with the ladies.

12 & 15: This is what I was attempting to point to. Y'all need to nut up if you're ever going to get anywhere. Wussies.

Also what Ogged said in 16. Talking on the phone with friends is so best.

19: Sure, but in asynchronous communication you have time to think about it and clarify if need be. On the phone you have to figure out what the person means right away and it's just too much pressure, especially if you don't have visual cues to work with.

Y'all need to nut up

A wonderful expression.

23: And true, of course. But surely face-to-face communication would be better for that?

24 was not actually intended to be a double entendre.

Sure ideally teo, but Ben has said he usually resorts to emailing (either, I can only assume, because asking in person is not practical or because asking person is actually more fraught than he's owning up to). And phone is way better than email for that sort of thing.

I agree with 16. Also: things you can get done while on the phone:

1) Baking
2) Cooking
3) Weeding
4) Laundry
5) Housework
6) Painting
7) Polishing fingernails

...must I go on? I could get through a whole Saturday like that, but for the phone ear.

And I love e-mail, but chat combines the worst of all worlds: tied to a computer, talking in little fragments, with other people jumping in to interrupt, and your supposed conversational partner often distracted in whole or in part. Bleh.

If Ben's anything like me (and he seems to be) the problem with asking in person is the fraughtness. Telephoning would not help with that.

which is why you ought to do it.

Usually it works out that asking the person face-to-face is (perhaps not objectively, but effectively) impractical. Of course one needs a phone number to call someone on the phone.

I reiterate that there exist people I like talking to on the phone, something I've never denied.

/unsolicited advice>

Don't worry, text, I think I'm due for another round.

The thing about calling (and this is connected to what I said in 8) is that I'm always terrified that I'll interrupt something important and they'll be mad at me but I won't be able to tell because I'll only have tone of voice as a cue and I suck at interpreting that and and and...

So I mainly stick to e-mail.

You know teo, most people just don't answer their phones if they're in the middle of something important. Or at least they shouldn't.

They don't? I mean, I don't, but I've always assumed that's just because I'm a jerk.

All y'all who love spending all day talking on the phone? Wait until you have kids.

Well I was going to suggest that fraughtness is not a constant value, even for those who naturally prefer IM type communication to phones (myself included), that such persons should, as a matter of practice, force themselves to interact via phone from time to time, not because it will help those hypothetical persons score chicks, though it will, but in furtherance of general principles of self-improvement. One even might construct a calendar, like great self-improvers of yore, goading one, "use the telephone today!" along with a certain value of chin-ups and squat thrusts to be accomplished, and biblical verses to be recited. In addition, one should learn to easily read backwards, and memorize the decimals of pi.

All y'all who love spending all day talking on the phone? Wait until you have kids.

Having kids is a sucker's game.

"I'm always terrified that I'll interrupt something important and they'll be mad at me . . ."

In a few small ways, it is helpful to be a bit arrogant.

38: Well, no shit.

In a few small ways, it is helpful to be a bit arrogant.

I don't doubt it.

My order of preference is: IM, SMS, phone, e-mail, if you're planning something for right now, and flip e-mail and phone if it's a few days or more in the future. SMS is particularly good for sending inappropriate messages that will make the recipient snort with laughter and then have to make up some palatable explanation for the boss/parents/in-laws/clergy member they're with when they get it.

I generally dislike making phone calls, and do my best to avoid using it even for such simple tasks as ordering takeout. I do, however, rather enjoy using it for extended chats BY APPOINTMENT with a select few people. Caller ID on my cell phone has made me pretty okay with dealing with incoming calls, as I can mentally prepare myself before I answer.

What I'm really a shithead about, however, is checking my messages. I hate to do it, am even rather phobic about it (why?) and so I usually don't do it at all, which makes me kind of an asshole.

As far as scoring chicks goes (Ben mentioned this, but no one seems to have noticed), a phone number is something that one needs to acquire by talking to the person, unlike, in many cases, an e-mail address. And if one is able to talk to someone in order to obtain a phone number, one might as well just ask her out right then.

ok, I think we've got to make a calendar.

45 was written before I read 44--don't mean to be dismissive.

I also hate talking on the phone, and prefer typing-based forms of communication where face-to-face is not an option. However, for the purposes of making social plans the telephone (while fraught) is the most effective means.

but there are several reasons people don't usually ask out right away: (1) people have schedules; difficult to make plans while drunk, (2) might come off as a bit needy (or might not, I dunno), (3) convention. Don't overlook (3) as a powerful deterrent to getting a date.

43: I hate checking messages too.

45: If you can't talk to someone, why would you want to ask them out?

I don't understand 48 at all.

45: If you can't talk to someone, why would you want to ask them out?

"talk to someone" s/b "talk to someone to ask him/her out", which is different.

people rely on convention, understandably, when they don't know each other very well.

plus, you're going to have to communicate in some way to establish the logistics of the date before it actually occurs.

44: Depends on the social circle, no? Way back when I was in school, everyone else's phone number was published a directory of sorts.

If you're meeting someone in a purely social situation, getting any kind of communications handle (email, phone) is good, and you can use the former to build up to the latter.

51: Right. The point is that asking for a phone number is tantamount to asking out in itself (because of a bunch of societal coding), so it's subject to the same anxieties.

In 48, I mean "ask out right away" in opposition to "get a number, ask out later," i.e., make plans at the moment you have just met.

Way back when I was in school, everyone else's phone number was published a directory of sorts.

Cell phone numbers are unlisted.

55: I get that, but I still don't understand.

54: no, teo. not all men are swell fellows like you and I; they don't always call those numbers.

58: But asking for the number implies that they will. No?

Just last week a good friend, who lives 15 or so blocks away but whom I don't see for months at a time, gave me shit about never calling. And while it takes two (not, in this case) to tango, he was totally right. Another friend had given me shit about the same thing a couple weeks before -- she always calls me, not the other way around. They're catching on! I need to either start calling my friends or get new friends, which would suck.

Part of the problem is that when it occurs to me to call someone, I immediately start imagining what I might be interrupting, or getting anxious because I might not have anything to say. This happens with all but maybe two or three friends. And like Ben, I love getting phone calls.

Fucking neurotic is what it is.

ok, in (1) what I meant was, people don't usually want to make specific plans with someone they've just met while they are out because it requires a certain amount of thinking; they aren't sure what other plans they've made, and they might not remember exactly what the plan was, the next day. In (2) I'm just referring to the basic, sad fact that humans are drawn to other humans who act non-commital. And this ties in with (1), the woman may want to discuss you with friends. In (3), I just mean that straying from convention in these rituals can set off alarms, because those conventions are comforting where two people don't know each other very well. In some ways, you can ignore the dating conventions, but especially where ignoring them could make you look overeager, I would suggest not to, not at first.

Anyway, I'm by no means an expert on anything. I've made messes of such things in a variety of ways. The important thing is to go out and try, and make your own messes, tiger.

59: yes, it is basically a broken promise not to call the number. and yet, often, they do not call.

Must I wax nostalgic for the old days on teo/ben's behalf --- when you never knew when a cute girl might walk up and say `nice boots, want to fuck?'

or was that just me?

I think you're just looking at this from a completely different perspective, text. I'm not thinking in terms of meeting strangers at bars.

it is basically a broken promise not to call the number

And so, by asking for a number, I would be implicitly promising to call the number to arrange a date. Therefore, anxiety.

You guys who worry about interrupting people, don't be like that. As long as you are willing to hear "I'm sorry, I have guests right now. When would be a good time to call you back?", you aren't bothering anyone. I mean, if you are really anxious about it, you can ask "Hey, is this a good time to call?", but I swear, you aren't inflicting yourself on people. You are making them happy because someone whose company they enjoy wanted to talk to them.

I totally agree that asking for someone's number is coded "I want to ask you out." Asking for an email address seems less fraught, right? "Hey, you're cool, we should hang, what's your email" is way more casual than asking for someone's number.

And the email address can lead to planning a social get-together (even in a group!), and from there it's a hop, skip, and a jump to hot make-outs.

All this to say, yes, calling people sucks.

An excruciatingly long and uncertain hop, skip and jump, yes.

well, it doesn't have to be at a bar, my advice applies to any first meeting. But feel free to ignore it; I don't actually know anything.

if this is someone you know already, of course, you can just ask her out in person.

my final advice for the evening: if it gives you anxiety, it's probably something you should try.

if this is someone you know already, of course, you can just ask her out in person.

See, this is the problem in a nutshell.

Honestly, Teo, just take out a personals ad.

Don't worry, I will. None of this here is actually relevant to my current situation.

I like talking on the phone to the Chestnut. We just talked for like two hours. Not much happens, but it's pretty satisfying. I also like getting a little drunk and calling my mom. Way more fun that way. I tend to like having people's phone numbers because I am often walking around wanting conversation to make it less boring, or at least the potentiality of making plans while on the move. Alas, no one answers their phones anymore.

Actually, most people are okay with phones, but I've gotten so used to you anti-phone freaks that I refuse to call anyone I've just met lest I annoy them somehow in the midst of something.

As I have explained, teofilo is a 42-year-old perv. He's cruising teenagers on the net. He thinks we're all teenage girls here, pretending to be adults.

If he asks to meet with you personally, do NOT go. His intentions are not good.

Where have you explained this, John?

He's emailed each of us, individually.

Thoughtful of him.

Teo, I can offer from experience that I've not been so sure about a guy in person, but, after exchanging a few emails in which he proved himself to have a good sense of humor (like, apart from the situation in which he's suddenly a nervous wreck), been happy to make date plans. Of course, if he's still a nervous wreck in person, it then takes, like, three sexy, funny emails to get me to go out again. There's a statute of limitations on totally awkward dates, but sexy, funny emails help.

My current beau is kind of terrible on the phone and this has caused me much anxiety. I keep trying to get him to move over to exclusively email and in-person conversations, but instead he seems determined to become more interesting on the phone.

I bet he took text's advice. Let this be a lesson, people.

w-lfs-n is actually a pseudonym for T. Herman Zweibel.

I should also say that most of the guys I end up going out with are the kind who are far too nervous to ask me out or even ask for my phone number, but seem to have no problem with suddenly fondling my hands or knees during a multiple-person conversation at a party. How can it possibly be easier to molest someone's inter-finger webbings in front of your friends than to ask for digits?

AWB: I've experienced the same. And the only answer I can deduce is liquid courage.

I, of course, would never do such a thing, but I can see how physical contact could be less nerve-wracking than asking for a number, particularly with the liquid courage etc. Less conventional, you know. Less worry about acting out the script.

molest someone's inter-finger webbings

Hott.

How can it possibly be easier to molest someone's inter-finger webbings in front of your friends than to ask for digits?

Molesting someone's inter-digit webbing is a request for digits.

Perverts.

But a question: When the fellow makes with the touchy-feely without making any verbal essay, and I then take up the talking part where I say, "Listen, Mister. I'm not gonna go home with you, but if you were to call me and ask me out, I'd say yes," the guy acts all shocked like I'm being ridiculously forward. Did he think I didn't notice he was making with the touchy-feely? For whom was it, after all?

Haven't you lot noticed that one can both talk on the phone and IM/email at the same time? That's what Bluetooth is for. Not to mention a Blackberry. And if one is particularly deft, one can also write a postcard at the same time.

And smoke signals! And telepathic messages to Xenu!

Haven't you lot noticed that one can both talk on the phone and IM/email at the same time?

Yes, but why would anyone want to do this? Carrying on one conversation is exhausting enough.

I do it if, like, my dad calls me or something.

87: The no-talk all-touch approach is weird, no question. I confess, once or twice I may have initiated some kind of flirty touching without associated conversation, but it was in the interest of plausible deniability: "What? No, my leg just happened to be resting against yours, not rubbing." The behavior you're describing I can't explain.

The guy acts all shocked because he's embarrassed, of course, but he should be. Embarrassed, and then very thankful.

He was being a bit of an ass. If he then took your number, and called you, he was being an ass in a playful way. If he did not take your number, he was just being an ass.

90: Suppose the person on the phone is boring. Or the person on the IM is super interesting/hot.

If someone calls me while I'm communicating electronically I have to stop and just talk. I can't handle both at the same time.

(I'm not much of a multitasker.)

92, 93: In each case, he's acted shocked and then we've ended up dating. It's happened with probably five or six guys, just like that, so I figured it was one of the Protocols of the Elders of Awkward that we ladies are so rarely privy to.

"without making any verbal essay"

does this mean the two of you had not actually spoken, or that he had not made his interest known verbally?

87: I suppose I might do that because it's hard to forget an instance where I made an ass out of myself by saying something; I would dwell on something like that. But it's easy for me to forget an instance where I made an ass out of myself by performing some physical action that could theoretically be justified as an accident or a drunken mistake. It seems like less of a commitment from the point of view of the person who is taking the risk of seeming to be an ass.

Of course, this is a mistaken point of view; the woman probably feels more annoyed by the physical intrusion than by the verbal one.

I don't like this move over to doing everything by IM and email. It seems so... lazy. Like the person doesn't care about me enough to call me up and say "hey, let's eat lunch," but if they just happen to see me on IM then we'll shoot the shit for ten minutes idly before we finally get around to saying "what are you doing for lunch?" "nothing, what are you doing for lunch?" It's idiotic. I think the whole thing is just a way to avoid rejection, which I think is especially bad among friends. So if I send an email to all my friends saying "who wants to go to this lecture on Sunday?" they can all studiously ignore it and I won't feel hurt the way I might if I had called up each individually.

I just feel like it increases the separations between people. Emailing and IMing is fine for people who live far away (I probably talk to my sister on the phone once every couple months, but we talk every day on IM), but for the people that you're maintaining in-town, close relationships with? Pick up the damn phone.

Also, I really appreciate getting phone calls, even when I'm in the middle of something. I dont pick up, I listen to the message, and call back in a few hours. Works just fine.

97: That is, there had been no verbal seduction attempt. Usually the handsiness is paired with a light patter about an irritation at the eventual degradation of the work of a film director, or the odds on a particular post-season game, or the relative durability/washability of various fabrics. The point seems to be to make boring chitchat that basically forces the fondlee to interrupt with something that says, basically, "What the hell are you doing?"

I think the whole thing is just a way to avoid rejection, which I think is especially bad among friends.

Unquestionably. I still feel weird calling up friends and inviting them to hang out or do something, especially if they're female. It's like the association has been built up in my brain -- "calling girls makes you nervous!" -- even though I'm happily married and they're gay or whatever. So I email instead.

basically basically. Bah.

I prefer e-mail because I basically just don't like talking to people at all. I like communicating, but spoken conversation makes me nervous (except in person with people I'm comfortable around).

Like the person doesn't care about me enough to call me up and say "hey, let's eat lunch," but if they just happen to see me on IM then we'll shoot the shit for ten minutes idly before we finally get around to saying "what are you doing for lunch?" "nothing, what are you doing for lunch?" It's idiotic.

This way of thinking sounds absolutely bizarre. I absolutely never, ever, call somebody up out of the blue and ask them if they want to have lunch. I have trouble doing things at arbitrary moments. But if they're on IM, and you're on IM, then it would be impolite not to notice them, just as if you were in a room together. It makes it much easier to invite them to something.

I think the whole thing is just a way to avoid rejection, which I think is especially bad among friends. So if I send an email to all my friends saying "who wants to go to this lecture on Sunday?" they can all studiously ignore it and I won't feel hurt the way I might if I had called up each individually.

And...this is...bad?

I think talking on the phone with a particular person is about getting into the phone groove. My best friend is a dude, and he and I probably call eachother multiple times a day. We hang out so much that any given rejection doesn't matter. "Hey wanna have breakfast?" "No, I'm having breakfast with *cough cough* someone else."

"What are you doing?" "Watching What not to wear and getting drunk." "Ok, I'm coming over."

And he's not even gay. Who says men and women can't be friends?

Watching What not to wear

....he's not even gay

ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE (head explodes)

You know what's even better than calling someone to see if they want to go to lunch? Popping by their office, if it is nearby. Riskiness factor: much higher! But, lunch temptation: also much higher! And if they say no, actually, there's a lot of work to be done, you can do the "but come on, lunch is fun!" dance in the doorway until they crack a grin and can't help but accompany you for lunch.

104: Well, it's a little different for me, because all my friends go to the same school as me, so we're all in the same general area anyway. But I still think your policy of never calling anyone out of the blue is weird.

And to your second question, yeah, it's bad, because it makes it easy for people to just ignore the email, and then no one comes to the lecture with me. People should hang out more. And that lecture was sweet.

And to your second question, yeah, it's bad, because it makes it easy for people to just ignore the email, and then no one comes to the lecture with me.

So call them.

Ned, I was the one watching What Not To Wear, obv. Although he did call me last week to say that he had Tivoed that HBO show about the brothel for me, cause he knew that I would like to watch it and get irate. Which I did.

And the Oscar for Neurosis goes to...

I think what we're finding out is that some of us are terrified of imposing our will on others, that there is constant fear that someone will say, "Yes, I'll go to lunch with you!" but secretly think, "Fucking retard! As if anyone would want lunch with you!"

So in order to combat even the remotest possibility of an inkling of obligated feeling in others, these folks are willing to maintain the fantasy that (a) anyone would be so obsessed with the asker's feelings that they'd overcome their own nausea to spend a little ego-stroking time with them, or that (b) the asker should never invest even the slightest amount of ego-risk in anyone, lest the bruises last, yea, until death.

What those of us who like asking in person or on the phone seem to be suggesting is that the eternal avoidance of obligation creates a much worse obligation on your friends, because (a) it forces the friend to be the constant initiator/ego-stroker, which is much worse than any tiny amount of possible ego-stroking they would have done by accepting your invitation, (b) risking a tiny amount of your ego is what many of us would call "friendship," which does have to go both ways to count, and (c) if you can't face the prospect of someone having other lunch plans, how are you ever going to work up to the prospect of asking anyone for a date, or something seriously potentially ego-bruising? Lunch is just the tip of the iceberg, y'all.

Amen.

Damn, she's got my number (so to speak).

I also like getting a little drunk and calling my mom.

I like getting drunk and calling almost anyone (but not necessarily my mom). I don't understand this anti-phone-ism. Isn't caller ID all about the opportunity to choose exactly who you want talk to and isn't that the best thing about cell phones? You call and if someone answers you talk to them; if no one answers, you leave a message. Maybe they call back. Communication couldn't be simpler or more perfect.

I like sitting outside a coffee shop or a bar talking to people on the phone. Drinking while I do so only makes it more fun to comment on people I see. I like talking to people on the phone while I'm walking down the street. And I routinely ask for the phone numbers of male and female acquaintances whom I've met at least twice--maybe once if they're really interesting--just so I can call them up and subject them to the purile details of my life. Obviously, this fear/love of phones maps on to whether you're an Interactor or a cold, unfeeling Autonomist.

112: I'm with you, AWB. I also don't like that I have friends who don't like the phone and are afraid of making any unplanned call, who then, in fits of vulnerability say "how come you never call me?!" when they haven't picked up the phone and dialed my number in a month. I have a lot of phone-weird friends, and so I often end up being the one doing the calling, because I don't care about getting rejected by my friends. Having a call that goes "Hey, what are you doing tonight?" "Oh, I'm going to a concert with so-and-so." "Sounds cool. I was going to invite you to come over, but now I won't." "Cool, let's talk tomorrow" isn't a horrible thing, people.

And it annoys me, because I want people to call me, too, but they just wait for me to call, or email and say "wanna hang out this weekend?" but then never call to follow up. It sucks being the fucking social coordinator.

Wait, why should they have to call to follow up an email that says "wanna hang out this weekend?" -- unless, of course, you wrote back to say something like, "Yes! Call me and we can make plans."

113: It's not the fear of rejection, it's a different kind of awkwardness. By calling someone on the phone, I feel like I'm sending the message that at this very moment, that person is the one person in the world who I want to talk to the most, so I'd better have something worthwhile to say. (this may come from growing up in a house where my mother said, about five seconds into every phone call she received, "So what are you calling about?")

Just calling somebody for a random lunch invite on a random day, or just to talk, is something I'm only comfortable doing with people I see just about every day anyway, not with people who will be surprised to hear from me.

I get very happy when I have an excuse to call someone that I don't often talk to, because otherwise I don't call them. The advent of IM has made it much easier to stay in touch with people who are in my city but who I don't run into regularly anymore. I'm on IM, she's on IM, hey, IM has brought us together! No need for me to initiate contact in an arbitrary manner!

Because I think that if someone is in the active position of wanting to hang out with me, they should be the one to make sure that it happens, not me. Usually I will respond with something tentative, or I'll see them in person and say "oh, I got your email, yeah let's do something," but then if I don't take the lead, it never happens.

I was basically teo for a long time. Less articulate in written communication, but that didn't matter because the internets hadn't been invented yet. Scared shitless of offending anyone by expressing interest. Somehow it worked out. Life mostly does. Not always--that's the scary part--but mostly. Alcohol and assertive women are a good combination, but assertive women who are tired enough of the blather to cut to the chase will work in a pinch.

I'm happy enough with my life, but there were way too many missed opportunities along the way, some of which probably hurt people I really, really didn't want to hurt.

Now I'm all sad.

DaveL understands where we're coming from.

I was probably around 17 when I realized that sometimes when I ignored people, they thought I was doing it to be rude, instead of because I had no idea what to say or do in their presence. I was shocked.

I guess I was hung up on the idea that somehow taking the lead required calling specifically, which I maintain that it need not.

I wrote 121 before seeing 120, but it's still true.

I think what we're finding out is that some of us are terrified of imposing our will on others

Perhaps. What I'm finding out, or rediscovering, is how much I hate eating in public. And how happy I am to work within an office culture where people leave one another alone at lunch time.

As for the broader issue, 103 gets it exactly right.

Do you know, probably the best advice my mother ever gave me was this:

Other people are way too busy worrying about what everyone thinks of them to really have much of an opinion about you.

In other words, if you call and they can't talk--or even if they can--two minutes after the call they've forgotten about it. If you make a move on someone or ask them out or whatever and it doesn't work out, they'll have forgotten about it a whopping ten minutes later.

Whether one finds this reassuring or even more anxiety-provoking is probably up for grabs. I personally find it quite comforting.

126: I've heard that a lot, and I'd say I'm definitely in the "even more anxiety-provoking" camp. I want people to notice me, dammit. As far as I can tell, they never have.

126 is exactly right. And frankly, most people I think are happy when others express interest in them, be it friendship or otherwise. I haven't been asked out that much by people I actually know, but the times I have I always thought "hey, that was cool," even if I wasn't interested in the person. And anytime people invite me to do stuff, I like it. Like what Cryptic Ned said? Well, people like thinking that you want to talk to them at that moment. It makes everyone feel good.

It sucks being the fucking social coordinator.

So, so true. Those freeloaders freakin' owe us, and some portion of them don't even realize we are doing work.

I was probably around 17 when I realized that sometimes when I ignored people, they thought I was doing it to be rude, instead of because I had no idea what to say or do in their presence. I was shocked.

It took me until my twenties to realize that shy people weren't deliberately snubbing me. I still have to deliberately remember that, instead of thinking "yeah, well, I didn't want to be friends anyway.".

.".

Don't tell me Ben's gotten to you too.

You know, I retract my saying that 126 is exactly right. You really think so? I still remember over a year ago when a guy started talking to smoking outside the building was like "hey, you seem cool. Do you play poker? You should come play poker with me and my buddies next week." I didn't go, but I remember the invitation, and I still talk to that guy. There are a bunch of other little things I remember like that, too.

127: Meanwhile, I'm happy with people not noticing me, and then they get all offended when I pretend not to notice them while hoping that they return the favor. It's not that I'm ignoring you, it's that if I really honestly have nothing of interest to talk about with you, and we're only going to spend fifteen seconds with each other, I'm more comfortable saying nothing than starting some sort of conversation that we both know is doomed to an early grave.

I've gotten a lot better about that in the last couple of years, though. Apparently sounding like an idiot for fifteen seconds is a social lubricant that gives people vaguely good impressions of each other, while staying aloof in the presence of others leads to awkwardness in the long run. It seems to be called "small talk".

127 - Well, maybe if you talked to them...

130 - Nope. I did that before I ever heard of Ben. I think of punctuation like the math rules of operation, and have to close it all in order.

Every time we have one of these conversations I become convinced that I should just start asking dudes out that I go to school with, but then I remember that my school is probably full of arrogant pricks who wouldn't want to date me anyway.

I want people to notice me, dammit.

Well, you could try calling them.

(*ducks*)

ducks to avoid the scourge of pwnag3, perhaps?

Well, you could try calling them.

I have. It doesn't work.

133: Fucking engineers. No respect for conventions.

My preferred order of communication lately: email, SMS, IM, and then phone. Like many others, it seems, I hate the idea of interrupting someone, to the point that I even feel a bit nervous instant messaging someone I don't know well because IM just feels so...needy. Write me back! Right now! Drop whatever you're doing!

I used to really enjoy talking on the phone at length but there are very few friends I do that with anymore. Mostly, it's just my parents and relatives. I wonder how much of that is attributable to technology -- since so many of my friends have gone to cell-only, conversations seem to involve a lot of "what did you say?" and "can you repeat that? you're cutting out"s. I only really enjoy talking to someone at length on my landline, which limits the opportunities. Yet, somehow, people managed that for dozens of years.

To clarify, I think email is great for "talking about stuff"--especially since there's a lot of clarity that writing things down can bring. But for plans-making, I think people should use the phone. Although I do admit to texting people sometimes when I'm not quite brave enough to make a call.

131: I think that this is true 90% of the time for most of us. And that in terms of people harboring secret thoughts about [what an idiot you are/god I hope *that* person never asks me out/omg I can't believe that person asked me out/ew, s/he has cooties], it's 100% right.

Cooties are a real problem when you're young. It feels as if someone gross asking you out somehow spoils your mojo, like you can't believe someone so totally grody could imagine you're in their league. Then you get older and endure much worse cootie-getting, like when a hobo slaps his penis against your thigh, and suddenly a nerd at work showing an interest seems low on the cootie scale. In fact, now you start to realize that cooties are actually indeed a by-product of encroaching behavior, but that the encroaching behavior comes mostly from psychos and patriarchal assholes who want to put you in your place. **WARNING: Many handsome men turn out to be patriarchal assholes! Test against patch of skin before full-body use!**

Once you develop a full-on accurate anti-encroaching-asshole allergy, suddenly those slightly nerdy, shy fellows (who really do have the best sense of humor and taste in foreign film, after all) are completely cootie-free. When did that happen?

Shorter this thread:

"Get confident, stupid!"

143: Kinda. If only because insecurity breeds cooties.

Test against patch of skin before full-body use!

Speaking of which, how's the sexrash situation?

145: Same as it was yesterday. Due to the rash, we only get to hang out like once a week. It is highly unfortunate. I will try feeding him anti-histamines.

I guess I'm kind of fixated on insecure guys because they totally ruined my dating life when I was in college by being incredibly emotionally needy but also really withholding about expressing affection, and now those same guys that were all young and insecure are now grown up and more confident, but secretly still regretful about having missed out on so much (and being unintentionally manipulative) in the past. All that self-doubt never made themselves happier, nor did it make anyone else happier, so what was it for? Life is not very long.

Ouch.

Yeah, ouch.

I ban myself for the rest of the night.

Otherwise known as "going to bed."

Your friend is right. While IM, e-mail, and the like can be ways to keep in touch or make plans, hearing another voice helps to stave off loneliness, in my experience.

For mechanical planning of events, however, e-mail is the easiest. Unless you're trying to coordinate a large group driving to a tailgate or something, then text messaging is the best.

I have become entirely phobic about using the phone...I hate using and especially checking messages.

I'm in the email camp when it comes to asking people out: it's a lot less pressure, and you have time to compose coherent thoughts without getting flustered.

Here's the big problem with using a phone to just call and chat anymore: everyone's got a cell phone. This means that they could be anywhere (and indisposed) when you call. In the old days of land lines, you would call at a certain hour with the expectation that they would be home, or would call you back when they got in. So when they don't answer their cell you get the sense that they are screening you out. [as an aside, "I'm not in right now" is a totally pointless message on your cell's voicemail, since the fact is YOU HAVE YOUR PHONE WITH YOU...].

People call Mrs V all the time. Whenever the phone rings she groans, "Oh God! Why does it never stop?" before picking up the phone and saying brightly, "Hello! Mrs V speaking!" as if she had been hoping against hope for whoever it was to call at that precise moment. Seeing this several times a day has left me terrified to ever call her myself.

It sucks being the fucking social coordinator.

So, so true. Those freeloaders freakin' owe us, and some portion of them don't even realize we are doing work.

I hope that this was meant in a genuinely ironic fashion rather than a pseudo-self-deprecating fashion which means that you actually believe it, because good God does this sort of attitude get the old strangle finger itching. I very much take the Surcommandante Marcos view of people who wish to lead the masses into a better state of the world for their own benefit.

By the way, if you have a complicated relationship with the telephone, try getting a job which requires you to make sixty calls every morning, most of which go to people who genuinely don't want to hear from you.

re: 155

hope that this was meant in a genuinely ironic fashion, in vain, I fear.

I hope that this was meant in a genuinely ironic fashion rather than a pseudo-self-deprecating fashion which means that you actually believe it

I have to admit that I got lost in the genuines and the pseudos here and have no idea what dsquared is hoping was or was not sincerely meant.

Daniel, do you really have a job which requires you to make sixty calls every morning, most of which go to people who genuinely don't want to hear from you? Is it something political that you're doing?

Speaking of work, I've noticed a distinct increase in snarkiness in business communications. I put this down to decreased phone usage.

And re dating hell: there's definitely something appalling about the first call that (by dull convention) follows the getting of the phone number. But maybe it's just that any rapid ramping up of relations is awkward. Much easier just to date colleagues or steal your friend's girlfriend.

"there's definitely something appalling about the first call that (by dull convention) follows the getting of the phone number."

If you have a good phone voice, answering machines can be a saviour there. "<manly voice> Hi, this is X, from the other night. If you get the chance give me a ring back on $foo, maybe we can meet up for $dateactivity </manly voice>"

I used to work in a call centre -- immediately after my undergrad degree -- and had to cold call people a few times. Never again.

If you have a good phone voice, answering machines can be a saviour ...

I'd forgotten about that possibility. I must have done it at some point. But surely it just delays the inevitable?

And now I'm imagining an unhealthy progression. It starts with checking yourself in the mirror at the gym. It moves on to discreet reconnoitering of date venues. Then comes making a test recording of the planned telephone message (just to see if it sounds properly manly). It ends with an addiction to cosmetic surgery.

I've never tried to arrange a date by instant message (I don't know anyone who uses it). I've tried SMS - halfheartedly. It didn't work.

I had a telemarketing job when I was in college, which was no fun at all. We were calling nationwide, and I used to save up the calls to the South for when I got too beaten up by callers in other regions -- Southerners didn't want any more newsletter subscriptions than anyone else, but they would ask how you were doing and chat about the weather for a bit.

Socially, I hate the telephone with a passion. I really don't like talking to people if I can't see their faces; tone of voice isn't enough context for me to know what's going on in the conversation. There are exceptions for nuclear family and about three close friends, but for 99% of the people I have contact with, I really don't ever want to talk to them on the phone. I answer voicemail messages with emails if it's at all practical.

I've never used IM at all, really -- most of the time I spend at a computer is at work, and law firms frown on that sort of thing.

I'm a stockbroker (I think this is a fairly open secret).

the first call that (by dull convention) follows the getting of the phone number

it might be a dull convention but I'm coming up short on other ideas about what you could do with a phone number.

I'm coming up short on other ideas about what you could do with a phone number.

Reverse directory lookup?

Curiously, when I Googled that to check for any interesting borderline illegal services the new economy may have thrown up recently, I got this. A site which "provides a database of celebrities addresses, in order to facilitate communication between the Celebrities and their fans via mail, and also to provide helpful resource for autograph collectors and charity funds."