He had forgotten to eat pineapple beforehand.
He is a very powerful man and might have blown her head off.
"Dick Morris kept calling me to impress his prostitute."
Because, supposedly, he didn't know her well enough.
I'd actually missed that he did this. Have you got some reason for caring?
This was a serious question, hivemind.
Can I ask why you want to know?
Well, if you want chapter and verse, the Starr report says:
In Ms. Lewinsky's understanding, his refusal was related to "trust and not knowing me well enough."
Or if you want Z Mag's point of view, apparently it was because he had some fear of oral pregnancy, or something.
Some of Lewinsky's testimony is best taken out of context:
Q: You're indicating six to eight inches, something like that?
A: I'm not very good with that.
Q: A foot or less, something like that?
A: A foot or less. I guess that's -- I would assume that's --
The word of Ms Lewinsky:
it had issues to do with trust and not knowing me well enough at first and then not feeling right about things, and not that he said this but I took away from that to sort of mean - that maybe in his mind if he didn't come then maybe it wasn't -- he didn't need to feel guilty about that, that maybe with it not coming to completion that that was easier for him to rationalize.
Thanks be to God.
Yeah, I had found the "trust" quote, but it's less than enlightening. I'm asking because I was discussing weakness of will with someone, and this came up as an example of someone trying to deal with it.
discussing weakness of will with someone
That's a very politic way of saying "getting blown in the server room".
God, that testimony so awful to read. Poor Monica Lewinsky.
Right, it's an unusual standard to invoke: I trust you enough for fellatio, but not enough to ejaculate. I mean, there are some bad things that might happen as a result, but most of them are implausible.
Interesting: I hadn't known just how the blue dress became stained.
Isn't it obvious? Clinton knew about the communist plan to sap our precious bodily fluids, and he wasn't about to let Lewinski have his life essence. Sadly, as we all know, he was a man of weak will and was not able to maintain the essence of his natural fluids.
most of them are implausible
Except for the one in comment 2.
I guess this whole fiasco should teach us men a lesson -- before you put your dick in a woman's mouth, make sure you also trust her enough to ejaculate. And that you trust her not to bite it off.
Ogged, these people are not going to help us advance our historical knowledge.
I seriously think I would rather go to prison than answer questions like that.
I can kind of see it for someone who was, as you say, weak-willed. Not trust so much as guilt. "Oh, I'm not doing anything really wrong, just kissing her a little. Oh, this still isn't a big deal, just a little making out and groping, what a fourteen-year-old might do after a movie date. Oh, she's got my dick in her mouth - shit, if I come, that means I'm really cheating on my wife."
I seriously think I would rather go to prison than answer questions like that.
They are really, truly awful. Insane people have had a lot of power for a while now.
So money shots are a deferential, "Let's get to know each other first" kinda thing? There needs to be a finishing school for, uh, finishing.
Then again, the precious-bodily-fluids theory does have this good nugget of circumstancial evidence for it. The first time he agreed to ejaculate in her presence, it ended up on The Dress and we all know what became of that. If he'd kept to his seemingly-arbitrary rule there would have been no physical evidence against him, and who knows what might have happened then?
who knows what might have happened then?
I hate to say it, but they would have made her out to be an insane attention whore. "The President receiving a blowjob from an intern while he talked to a Congressman? Preposterous!" I probably would have believed them, too.
I'm not even sure that I would be physically capable of answering questions like that. The mortification!
I think Clinton should have just remembered that Eatin Ain't Cheatin.
one day on set, she went to fetch Schwarzenegger from his trailer when a shot became possible earlier than expected, only to discover him performing oral sex on a woman she didn't recognize. He looked up and explained: "Eating isn't cheating."
28.--Hm, I don't know about that. Monica was subpeonaed as part of the investigation into the Paula Jones incident because that horrible human being Linda Tripp had all those taped phone conversations.
23,27 - except for his extensive cheating history. Remember that state trooper or something who came forward with tons of anecdotes about life with Clinton back in Arkansas? He'd go out for his morning jog and come back with a donut and lipstick on his collar.
Remember that state trooper
Yeah, the ones who were paid off and one of whom (if I recall) later recanted.
Yeah, but having an extensive history of cheating doesn't also mean that one is incapable of rationalizing it. Quite the contrary, probably.
By the time the DNA analysis came back, though, it was like the sprinkles on the icing on the cake.
ah, yes, the infamous donut on the collar.
dead give-away.
It's so charming -- it's like the president was a guilty evangelical kid making out after youth group.
Certainly preferable to our current elementary schooler, rubbing Play-Doh into the carpet.
35: Right, the impression I got from the net result of all the allegations against Clinton, considering the sources, is that Clinton was certainly an adulterer, but on a reasonably conventional level (say, conventional by Congressional standards) but that the really unusual sounding allegations were mostly malicious fantasy.
23 and 27 crack me up.
you may be right about what was going through Clinton's mind. But god, it's just pathetic if so.
Do you attribute that sort of spineless weaseldom to the male mind because you have dealt with many spineless weasely male minds? Or do you just think Clinton was special?
I always figured he and Hillary were pretty clear where they stood with each other by the time he was president, and that he was only in trouble with Ma and Pa America.
But then his delicacy in preserving Monica's oral purity doesn't make any sense, so maybe there was still marital strife.
41: Neither. I attribute that kind of pathetic rationalizing because I know that I'm perfectly capable of it myself. We all are.
41: Nah, it's because I inhabit a spineless weaselly female mind, and I can totally imagine myself having an equivalent train of thought. I figure men are people too.
"Attribute," of course, should be "infer."
he was only in trouble with Ma and Pa America.
I'm pretty convinced that the Lewinsky affair actually helped him with Pa America.
42: Again, see 40. I have the impression that he'd certainly cheated on Hillary before, but neither as blatantly nor as often as the accusations would have you believe -- that they had a marriage where he wasn't condoned, he was forgiven.
45: We're both clever enough not to fall for reserve sexism baiting.
Never noticed the symmetry of reverse and reserve before.
I do hold a certain amount of sexism in reserve for emergencies.
Hadn't read 40 before posting, but I'll buy that.
Huh, me either. Anyway, I shouldn't have said 'baiting,' b/c I doubt that was Bitzer's intent.
49--
I think you're both clever enough for anything.
but I'm not sure what you had in mind about "reserve/reverse sexism baiting".
That I was going to accuse you of sexism for thinking poorly of Clinton or men in general?
Not my game.
53, 54: Is there such a thing as apology-pwnage?
Nothing pisses me off more than when someone apologizes before I'm ready to stop being mad at them.
It does sound like a rationalization, or a version of 'technical virginity.'
56: I'm sorry that bothers you, Adam.
The nice thing about "technical virginity" is that when you finally do have sex, it feels like a technicality rather than a serious sin. At least that's the word on the street.
I hadn't realized that Clinton's defense argument was (at least in part) that he hadn't "engaged in sexual relations" because the sexual acts were performed on him rather than reciprocally. Christ, that's worse than the "didn't inhale" rationalization.
56 may be a joke, but dammit, it's right.
56--
lest my failure to reply be taken as anger a la 56:
thanks, B, for clarifying your estimate of my intent. I appreciate it.
This pwnage thing, though--this is a local custom that I just don't find much value in, have to say. In hanging out here I have tried to adopt some of your colorful native folk-ways, but I just don't really see much of interest in this one. (Perhaps because it is an artifact of blog-interaction that does not correspond to anything in live conversation? Except "jinx! you owe me a coke", which got tired in second grade?)
kid bitzer is banned!
60: Maybe he was trying to preserve the "I didn't inhale" defense for Lewinsky.
This pwnage thing, though--this is a local custom that I just don't find much value in
We used to call it "cross-posted", in a more civilized era.
an artifact of blog-interaction that does not correspond to anything in live conversation?
You write as if socially inept people did not hang out here. Except B, who is cool, but hangs out here anyway.
If you wanted to use the less-civilized construction, you had to hang a "Weiner" out in front of it.
47: I'm sure it did. Especially because Pa America really digs the hefty chics, despite what all the advertisers tell you.
63.--That might've been real gentlemanly of him, were it not for the fact that Lewinski has ended up taking the rap for just about everything. (Her last known location: London.)
Don't listen to standpipe, bitzer. It's a drinking game, plain and simple. Everytime someone says "pwned!" we all take a shot.* It makes reading the blog much more entertaining.
* With one slight tweak to the rules so those who comment from work can still participate: if your employer has a policy against drinking on the job, you can substitute masturbation instead. That's what I usually do.
Except "jinx! you owe me a coke", which got tired in second grade?
Yes, it did get tired in second grade. Everyone, please take note.
Ah, back when pwnage was pwnage simpliciter.
(Sound of one's own horn tooting.)
Has "Weiner" been retired?
I think he stopped commenting "voluntarily".
Let me toot that horn for you, SB.
I love Joe's follow-up. Such good timing in that thread.
He'd go out for his morning jog and come back with a donut ...
A jelly donut?
(Her last known location: London.)
I work with a guy whose girlfriend actually met and had dinner with Lewinsky in London, where they were both in school. The friend-in-common went to great lengths before the dinner to make sure she understood which topics were not be broached (Clinton, cigars, etc.). She reported that Lewinsky seemed like a very nice, normal person.
Also, I once had a sex dream about Monica Lewinsky.
60: Well, it was in response to a highly detailed definition of 'sex' plaintiff's lawyers came up with in the Jones case -- it's not clear that he actually thinks that way. It seems more likely that he looked at the definition, riffled through his memory, and figured that what had happened didn't quite fit the particular definition.
I once had a dream in which I tried to persuade Monica it was safe to leave her house.
Dream-JM was not reckoning with the existence of dream-Apo.
The Dream Police, they live inside of my head.
It's a fine legal strategy, I suppose, but only a lawyer arguing on a client's behalf should use it.
84 -- Didn't they have a #1 hit in '73 and then were never heard of again?
Ah -- a Cheap Trick reference that I did not catch.
Dream Police is a Cheap Trick cover band.
85: Given the circumstances, it was use it himself or not use it at all.
My guess is Clinton didn't ejaculate because he wasn't excited enough. Some men don't find oral sex all that stimulating and feeling guilty or nervous about being caught would make things worse.
Excellent guess Shearer! And perfectly in line with the evidence to boot.
90: This would be true for me, but it wouldn't have occurred to me to, if you'll pardon the expression, project it onto Clinton.
I hadn't realized that Clinton's defense argument was (at least in part) that he hadn't "engaged in sexual relations" because the sexual acts were performed on him rather than reciprocally.
IIRC, that was at least in part due to the exceedingly technical definition of "sexual relations" the prosecution had come up with. (They wanted to be absolutely certain he couldn't weasel out of it, and ended up giving him an out.)
Seems like we should be able to work out some sort of barter system, where those of us who do enjoy it could get the oral sex that you guys aren't fully appreciating.
94: like pollution credits, you mean? Dibs on Shearers.
Also, I once had a sex dream about Monica Lewinsky.
Lots of people have had dreams about Bill. (Seriously, everyone should have this book. It's awesome.)
94, 96 -- You guys are ignoring that a guy could greatly enjoy having fellatio performed on him, without being brought (as a matter of course) thereby to orgasm. Though this was not Shearer's point I guess.
94: Yeah, seriously.
One must not discount the ambiguity of the female-on-male oral sex situation. On the one hand, the woman appears to be completely subjected. On the other hand, the woman is much more in control of the situation than during intercourse. The possibilities for serious emotional manipulation are very real -- especially if the man is the type to feel guilty about the lack of reciprocity.
This of course has absolutely nothing to do with my personal experience.
Shorter 100: It's her fault that I feel so guilty. If only she hadn't given me that blow job. The bitch.
During the height of the Lewisnky escapade, I remember having a virulent argument with my then-sorta-kinda-girlfriend about whether or not President Clinton should have resigned as a result of his misadventures with "the whole truth" while under oath. Two months later, while we were at dinner with her parents, she argued exactly the opposite position from the one she'd taken in our argument and denied ever believing anything else.
That's my only Monica Lewinsky-related story. Except that cigars creep me out to this day.
I think 90 stems from male fantasy. If Clinton didn't want the sucky-sucky, why not just refuse it altogether rather than cutting it short, over and over again? I can't believe that he was so weak-willed as to be unable to refuse sex that he didn't even enjoy. That doesn't sound like the sort of attribute that goes with natural leadership. Being unable to resist 'a taste' but having the willpower to stop himself from going 'too far' seems much more plausible to me.
Plus, some stuff from Lewinski's testimony suggests against it, but I just feel icky writing about that stuff.
97: I had a dream that I met Clinton in the aisle of the Oscars, and invited him to smoke a doob with me in the alley. I don't know what I was doing at the Oscars, though.
That wasn't my only dream about smoking with Bill.
The first paragraph of 102 is pretty ambiguous.
Damn. LB-pwned.
Rather, "Weiner-pwned by LB", since "Weiner-pwned" isn't "pwned by Weiner", or even "pwned after the fashion of Weiner", but "pwned in Weiner's sense of the word 'pwned'".
Of course if you insist, we'll end up calling it "Josh-LB-pwned".
101: I thought that off-blog interactions were sacred.
Perhaps we should redefine "cross-posted" to mean "Standpipe-pwned."
105: Yeah, I know. The girl was living in Texas and I was in New York City, and there was a long history there. I said "kinda-sorta" to describe the confused nature of our relationship, so the ambiguity in the comment was intentional.
I got really good at explaining in French the perjury and workplace harrassment angles of the Lewinsky affair---not that I had seen those factors as determinative at the time, but because so many French people were so smug about not knowing any of the details.
Perhaps we should redefine "cross-posted" to mean "Standpipe-pwned."
Clown, "Standpipe-pwned" would presumably mean "pwned", since I use "pwned" in the bog-standard way. I don't see the point.
I think you mean "in the blog-standard way".
I think SB meant what SB wrote and wrote what SB meant.
111: I thought that being pwned in the bog-standard way involved being tossed into the muck and thereby, over the course of thousands of years, becoming a bog mummy.
Which reminds me of a kick-ass Millennium episode.
(Feh -- I'm kind of short of sleep today...)
This redefines pwned. Not even Shawn Bradley ever got embarrassed that badly.
119: Did you notice the audio? That was his *seventh* TD that night. Pwnage indeed.
He scored an eighth TD later in the game, too.
At least the other team didn't get tossed into the muck and thereby become a bog mummy football team. Of course, that would be your standard bog-standard pwnage.
btw, I loved Millenium, even when it veered off the tracks in Season 3.
The obligatory Vince Carter dunk link.
122: they were saving that for homecoming
124: Dilemma - do I duck and become famous for the worst pwnage in basketball history, or do I stand up and get a faceful of Vince Carter's genitalia?
If he'd just put his head down and bucked up and forward a little, he could have claimed the most hilarious ownage in basketball.
He was already in trouble for white water, er, Whitewater?
107: They are. I wasn't talking about that.
Also, thanks a lot.
For some guys, it does take a long while. Another option is that Monica wasn't very skilled, but Bill is too good to come out and say that. Hasn't anyone thought of that?
131 - another reason for a Finishing School For Finishing. How does one navigate the etiquette landmines in such a sitch?
Monica is now a card-carrying Republican. The Dems left a bad taste in her mouth.
Though it's likely you weren't making a factual claim, just repeating a stale joke. I offer you a ceremonial "ha".