I'm so tempted to edit this to be about Michael Jackson, growing up in Neverland, and so on.
If we want to declare open season on editing each other's posts, I'm good with that.
That way lies madness, but it would liven things up around here.
Yeah, let's just edit other people's comments.
I love hakeem. yay hakeem! hey, look guys, it's daytime and I'm commenting on unfogged! or, since it's pitch black out, let's say early evening.
I worshipped MJ too, he seems bitter now? Any recent stories that I've missed (saw the one about the mistress and know he left the wizards involuntarily, but others)? I mean, doesn't Nike still give him dump trucks full of money?
And don't get me started on "H"akeem.
also, boo editing other people's posts! unless it's ogged putting 80% of an LB post under the fold; I'm Ok with that.
Welcome to America!
(Drugs are illegal here too!)
Other than being a famous actress, I can't think of anything else where you can go from being on top of the world to washed up in your early thirties.
Women gymnasts are washed up in their early '20s.
9: Also many/most female tennis players.
Other than being a famous actress, I can't think of anything else where you can go from being on top of the world to washed up in your early thirties.
porn star, with a few exceptions.
I kinda figured Ogged's comment applied broadly to most sports.
I love watching Dan Marino in the booth trying calmly to discuss his records being broken, one by one. He's clearly still livid about never having won the big game, and has staked his entire sense of self and self-worth on the fact that statistics proved him the best QB ever, and now as his records are falling away you can just see in his eyes his agony as he crumbles inside. And yet he has to keep a smile on his face and say nice things about the players on the field. When you can see clearly from his facial expressions that he can barely get the words out because he's really just thinking "If I'd had the half the recievers or O-line of that young punk..." and every now and then he almost seems as if he's going to trip up and let his thoughts slip out. It's fantastic to watch.
"Proved" should have had scare quotes.
Yeah, Marino seems a bit on edge.
,i> also, boo editing other people's posts! unless it's ogged putting 80% of an LB post under the fold; I'm Ok with that.
Catfight at Unfogged? Stay tuned.
Dude, I am so not getting in a catfight with Alameida. Her little sister takes down multiple Nazis at once in barfights. I am meek, and harmless, and humble.
Dude, I am so not getting in a catfight with Alameida.
Disappointing.
11: I'm ashamed that that didn't occur to me. Shocking oversight.
Don't know if you were already hip to this, but MJ is keeping busy sponsoring his very own motorcycle racing team.
I can't think of anything else where you can go from being on top of the world to washed up in your early thirties
Math is like that, they say.
But Erdos, and there must be other old productive mathematicians. And of course they can still teach, etc.
ogged:
I think you're vastly underrating the evidence that Jordan was a dick before, when he played, and that you and I and everyone else just didn't care. There has been some change, and I suspect there's other stuff at work there, some of which you mentioned. But I think a lot of it is that--with a nod to Phil--the remarks from the pretty girl are more obviously cruel rather than "incisive" when she's not so pretty anymore. To the extent it matters at all, that's on us. But it doesn't matter at all, in the end. He was a great ball player; that doesn't make him the repository of all man's virtues.
He absolutely was a dick, but he was the Alpha Dick. It was Dick from Strength. Now he's old broken-down dick. And kinda bitter, and kinda sleazy, with a paunch.
No under fold posts, they're a pain in the ass.
And it matters to me because one of the things that made Jordan the best was that he was mentally dominant and unbreakable. He was never intimidated and he never lost his temper with the press, or freaked like Marino up there at comment 15. He wasn't just "a great ball player;" he was in some headspace that few people are ever in.
they're a pain in the ass
How are they a pain in the ass?
to 8: yes, but they're way less illegal. not that I'm shopping.
24: I have it on reasonably good authority that he was always kinda sleazy in a certain way. Which I didn't and don't care about, but I am a libertine in that way...
he was always kinda sleazy in a certain way
Yup, heard that too. But it didn't show.
No under fold posts, they're a pain in the ass.
You should try clicking the mouse with your finger instead.
24: I'm confused. Are you troubled by his behavior, or the paunch (metaphoric or otherwise)? It's not like Jordan's post-career life has anything akin to the pathos of any number of boxers.
I mean that he's lost the smooth swagger and hasn't replaced it, like Magic or Hakeem, with something quite so admirably adult. Or really I guess I'm just saying that he doesn't seem happy, and Michael Jordan should be happy.
he was in some headspace that few people are ever in.
I think you're underestimating the extent to which this wasn't a function of anything willed, but of--there's some better word here, but I don't know it--the material conditions of his life. It wasn't quite a happy accident, but there was a fair bit of luck involved.
31: I'm lazy, and I use a touchpad. Much prefer to keep the hands on the keyboard, kthx.
I'm not sure what you mean, or why it matters.
Ogged, dodid you admire MJ, or his qualities? Is having good qualities enough to make a person admirable? Maybe SCMT is making that distinction?
You're getting all metaphysical on me, dude. What's a man apart from his qualities?
Michael Jordan reminds me of 9/11, because the big story on Chicago radio early that morning was "will MJ come back from retirement?"
Now, I don't follow pro sports that much, but is this typical behavior for fans in other cities? In New York or Boston, when your hero retires or goes to play for another team, do you still talk about Him more than you talk about the guys you've got playing for you now? It always seemed weird to me, the way Chicago fans love their winners so much.
37: The quality you reference--his ability not to be intimidated-- was in part a function of the fact that he was rarely ever at risk. From his early days in the league, he was marked as special. As one of his teammates said, if the Bulls won, it was "Jordan wins again," and if they lost, it was, "Jordan's supporting cast loses the game." It's a bit like talking about the rich man's "boldness" and willingness to "put it all on the line." So--and admittedly I'm making assumptions here based on my own worship of Jordan--the quality you admire is somewhat fictive.
Actresses might have it the worst, because they rarely get the big bucks or great parts at their peak, and really don't lose the prime reason they became stars. Debra Winger wasn't the prettiest woman in the business, she had talent and drive and luck. The Rosanna Arquette movie is very painful to watch.
I probably think about this everyday. I could get lost in it. Michele Trauchtenberg, lil' sis on Buffy, has the 2nd lead in Black Christmas. Why her, and not some other kid?
No, I don't think so. They would have lost to Detroit forever, except that the year they finally beat Detroit, Jordan deliberately got in Rodman's face when Rodman cheapshotted him, and you knew the series was over right there. There was nothing to guarantee that the Bulls would become as dominant as they did, and Jordan, if you'll recall, was called a ball-hog much the same way Iverson is now, and he could have been another Iverson: a spectacular scorer who never won it all.
Jordan was clearly a greater player than Hakeem, but it's hard for me to fathom how anyone could have liked him more. Hakeem always carried himself with a certain serenity, unlike Jordan who clearly wanted to kill you.
On that note, it has been extremely pleasurable for this Bostonian to follow Isaiah's career. I live in fear that I'm going to find out Mark Aguirre turned into some saintly philanthropist.
40: I don't know how it breaks down in numbers, but it seems to me that a lot of cities hate players who leave, no matter the circumstance. But Chicago had no - NO - winning teams from, I dunno, the 40s until Da Bears in '85 (with the '84 Cubs straddling the line between winner and knife-in-the-heart loser)? Then Jordan is the consensus best player in any sport ever anywhere for, like, a decade? It would be hard to get over that. Christ knows that Pittsburgh still hasn't really gotten over the Steel Curtain Steelers. Maybe if Roethlisberger wins 2 more, people will start to care....
PS - I always hated Marino - glad to see him psychologically destroyed on TV.
. There was nothing to guarantee that the Bulls would become as dominant as they did, and Jordan, if you'll recall, was called a ball-hog much the same way Iverson is now, and he could have been another Iverson: a spectacular scorer who never won it all.
This is nearly pure myth. Iverson never, ever had the corporate love that Jordan had. No one has. Columnists may have said he was a ball-hog, but fans loved, loved, loved him. Cripes, he was probably the best player in the league, by wide acknowledgement, by his third season in the league, he won the MVP three years before he won his first title. He was the best defender and the best offensive player by his third season. It would have been tragic if he'd never won a title, but the furthest he would have fallen is "best player never to win a title" and maybe as far as, what, seventh best of all time. Oscar Robertson won a title in his waning years on a team led by Kareem; he's still always in the conversation for GOAT, and the discussion almost never references championships.
They would have lost to Detroit forever, except that the year they finally beat Detroit, Jordan deliberately got in Rodman's face when Rodman cheapshotted him, and you knew the series was over right there.
This is also pure myth. Detroit got old and, IIRC, gave up Mahorn a year before. The Bulls were a better team the year before, and would have won but for Pippen coming up soft. The difference was that Pip and Grant committed. And they didn't just beat the Pistons, they swept 'em.
The look that Marino gives Esiason at the end of this clip is damn-near priceless.
Also, in re. 22: I feel like Erdos was the Julio Franco of his time. Up to and including the heavy drug abuse.
"Other than being a famous actress, I can't think of anything else where you can go from being on top of the world to washed up in your early thirties."
You can't be on The Real World if you're over twenty-five.
He's unhappy because he finally failed at something. And not just something, but a few things, back to back. And the reason he failed was, at least in part, the same reason he used to succeed. Plus, he was probably pretty vain, and now he's old and fat. So there's a pretty good recipe for unhappiness. If his failures had been more damaging, maybe even a tragic figure. But since he's still rich and will always have something to do, no, just an angry fat man.
20: Yeah, and he's complained in interviews about the way the AMA is run. Now, in comparison to MotoGP or World Superbike or even British Superbike the AMA is a pretty podunk operation, but there's definitely an element of "why won't people do things MY way?" to it.
50: though I guess then he redeemed himself by returning to basketball, so text's 49 holds, I think.
that's true, he did. but it was sort of off scene, and then he got to come back to basketball. failing at baskteball, in all the myriad ways he did with the wizards, must have been worse. plus, maybe it said something bad about his character, how he handled himself, fucking up kwame, dumping the young talented players in favor of Oakley and his ilk in a last pitiful run.
arrogance can be a really helpful attribute, and then it isn't.
Didn't Dikembe Mutombo single-handedly fund a Congolese women's hospital?
53: Yeah, his tenure with the Wizards provided a smooth but shockingly fast fall from grace. It's like all the magic disappeared when he stopped wearing a Bulls uniform.
I suspect it's the business deals that hurt more than anything else. He seemed to be trying to cultivate an image as a savvy manager of his empire. Then Abe Pollin played him, and he found out he wasn't a player when the Bobcats deal came around, and he realized that Hanes offering you a lot of money to wear their underwear doesn't necessarily mean you're a business genius. Plus the Wizards' persistent suckiness closed off the possibility of passing himself off as a masterful basketball strategist.
What can the guy claim to be good at now? And whatever it is, how much worse at it is he than he was at playing basketball?
54: Yep. Named for his mother, in fact.
Not to jump to quickly to the shaky politician parallel, but I do wonder what President Bush will do after leaving office. Clinton seems to be doing some very specific and useful things. I guess there's enough money in speeches to the Carlyle execs to keep a man in F-350s for his remaining days. But what else can he do?
What the fuck is wrong with being a bitter old man??????
Then Abe Pollin played him, and he found out he wasn't a player when the Bobcats deal came around,
Michael Jordan as Stringer Bell.
Human sympathy has its limits, and we were content to let all their tragic arguments fade with the city lights behind. Thirty - the promise of a decade of loneliness, a thinning list of single men to know, a thinning briefcase of enthusiasm, thinning hair. But there was Jordan beside men, who, unlike Daisy, was too wise ever to carry well-forgotten dreams from age to age.
58: Politics aside, Clinton has a personal level of competence that Bush doesn't come close to. I'm sure he (C.) could be effective at many things if he decided to. Bush probably has meet-and-greet value a lot of places, but has demonstrated no basic capabilities that are going to turn heads --- instead I'm sure there will be a nice sinecure found for him.
22 Erdos certainly kept churning out papers but I think he did his best work when he was young. The problem solving part of mathematical ability peaks pretty young for most people.
21 Chessplayers peak young also.
66: While there certainly is some evidence of this, I think it is also mythologized as being more true than it actually is.
47 Erdos was notorious for using amphetamines but I am not sure his use qualifies as abuse.
58: "to" s/b "too" obviously. Jesus, I suck at life today.
21, 22
I'm no saying this doesn't exist at all. However, I think it has more to do with the mythology of how math is done than with how it is actually done.
odd, 71 should have had an arrow from 61 -> 21, 22 not sure what happened to it.
71: I wouldn't know, but I guess I'll find out. I'll test the arrow again though see if it shows up at the end of this sentence. 71: I wouldn't know, but I guess I'll find out. I'll test the arrow again though see if it shows up at the end of this sentence.
something about the way comments are parsed then. "something about the way comments are parsed then. Left angle brackets cut off the rest of the text.
Left angle brackets cut off the rest of the text.
Yeah, it's expecting an html tag to follow a <.
76: simplistic parser then. But it also messed up my text by repeating sections, which is interesting.
I, for one, am eager to see how Bush handles his post-presidency. I suspect that it'll be a train wreck, with enough Schadenfreude to power a small city. I hope he starts drinking again.
47 Erdos was notorious for using amphetamines but I am not sure his use qualifies as abuse.
There was an anecdote in his New Yorker profile that he once just stopped, cold turkey, for a month, and was fine, except he did no math. Then he started again.
I suspect that it'll be a train wreck
God, I hope so. I'm trying to decide whether he'll leave with lower approval ratings than Nixon. I can't wait to hear that he's "writing" a book.
I hope he starts drinking again.
I'm guessing there's no "again" to it, and that he'll just get so reviled that people will stop covering for him.
79: Yes, that was in "The Man Who Loved Only Numbers" as well. (His biography: read it).
He also coined the phrase "A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems."
82 -- And weak coffee is fit only for lemmas.
(I've also heard the original joke attributed to Alfred Rényi? The follow-up is Paul Turán, I think, and I think I've gotten the accents straight here.)
82 - His epitaph ("Finally I am becoming stupider no more.") makes me mist up a little.
Actaully, upon thought, I think the most likely outline of the Bush post-presidency is that he's given a handful of board positions where he's kept semi-visible, but given absolutely no real power. Having Bush's post-presidency be a train wreck would be a black eye on a Republican party that can ill-afford to have Bush careening around the public square without even the constraints of office to limit the spectacle he makes of himself, especially given what a poor contrast he'd make to Carter and Clinton's post-presidential careers. I expect more of what we've seen already; Potemkin intiatives and diplomacy, little Kabuki shows paid for by Republican billionaires to make Bush look like he's just as good an ex-president as Democrats.
85: agreed; this is roughly what I meant in 65.
I'd always assumed that Bush would go straight to "Commissioner of Baseball" once he left the White House, but maybe now he'll be unpopular enough that Baseball doesn't want him.
Wouldn't that be nice.
The idea that mathematicians over 30 are worthless is wildly inaccurate. Certainly nowadays top mathematicians keep doing good work for a long time.