Ogged's throws got accurate quickly, but hurt to catch.

I'm assuming this is some kind of deep and clever metaphor, right?

I am not the author, and therefore have only the same impoverished access to the meaning of those words that you do, slol.

Well, I imagine you would know at least whether you were actually playing catch in the conventional sense of the term.

There are many conventional senses.

Ogged's just looking for some touch tush.

Huh. I haven't gotten any of her last 5 or 6 posts into my RSS reader. I figured she was hiating for the holidays.

Megan -- I think there's something wrong with your feed.

My conventional sense involves a ball, or perhaps frisbee, which one person throws to another, who arrests its progress competently with the hands, "catching" it, and throwing it back. This cycle is repeated. Accuracy and touch are important.

ZZ Top references are banned.

ZZ Top references are banned.

Also, I am hating on party people.

Megan's other account of our day is here.

I actually remembered that. And maybe she wasn't wrong about teh healing.

Don't make me smoke you on the stoop, Slo.

Back off, gump.

Snitch bitch.

I was so bummed about Bodie.

Spoilers people. spoilers.

Marlo's gots to fall.

Man, that was a highbrow thread. And ogged, I thought the spoiler rule was, once it's aired, readers beware.

Is that the rule? Ok then.

It's the Television Without Pity rule.

Was any ZZ Top played at the DCon?

You fuckers, I'm on season 3 now.

What did you think of season 2, baa?

Me too; but spoil me twice, shame on me.

I *finally* caught up with the rest of the Wire-watching world on New Year's Eve. We were racing against the On Demand expiration date for Season 4 at midnight; we made it, and then the accumulated fatigue and hangover from UnfoggeDCon knocked me out at midnight-thirty.

The only hopper kid left from Season 1 is Poot, right?

Yup. "Hopper kid" is redundant.

Didn't mean to offend, oh Voice of the Ghetto.

Just trying to save you some embarrassment.

Yo.

Yeah, I meant playing catch with a frisbee, and I meant that Ogged threw with so much force that his throws stung my hands. I remember a different outcome of the accuracy contest, but... his blog, his version.

Megan says we tied. My memory is horrible, so she's probably right, unless she's a big liar.

Brief thoughts on season two, and let me add: *spoilers*

0.It wasn't as good as season one. Most fundamentally, the villains -- Spyros, and "The Greek" -- were enormous downgrades over Stringer and Avon. Bell and Barksdale are mesmerizing on screen: fully realized characters and intensely charismatic. The mobsters-of-nondescript-European origin, by contrast, were almost caricatures. And their melting into air via an inside FBI informant was too deus ex machina.
1. The focus on Ziggy was a mistake. He's a flawed, irritating, and ultimately uninteresting character. The duck is funny, I grant you, but his was a story that was never going to be upper tier.
2. Keema doesn't want to have a kid, and I don't care. Another plotline that wasn't up to snuff.
3. 1 and 2 above would have been fine if the show wasn't already stretched chasing too many plotlines. Trying to keep the Barksdale side of the show going while giving full time to the docks didn't really work. And as a result a lot of the character development and plotting felt rushed
4. Nowhere was the comparative weakness of characer development more apparent than with Niko. Maybe he could have ended up as the white D'Angelo, the guy in the game who is nonetheless almost wholy sympathetic. But -- in part because of the focus on Ziggy -- he didn't get enough time to develop and wasn't even slightly as compelling a character as D'Angelo. Just as a for instance, in season one we get some sense of both of the women in D'Angelo's life, whereas Niko's girlfriend ends remains little more than a non-combatant cipher
5. Nonetheless, a bad season of the wire is still terrific TV. Bunk is great. McNulty's self destruction is great. And I would steal copper pipes in order to see Omar's court scene. Omar is the king, even when saddled with that silly Brother Mouzon subplot.
6. Not really a complaint about season two, but more a shout to the heavens. Will not the earth itself rise up to destroy Stringer Bell's infamy? Does not the skeletal hand of Nemesis stretch out towards him? How can any man dare cross both Omar and Avon Barksdale live? I devoutly hope that I will be gratified in season three.

I think we're in complete agreement, baa. My Season 2 post has a Season 3 spoiler, so I won't link to it.

I would just defend the show on two points: the FBI insider was a bit convenient, but I thought it worked insofar as it made plain that though the Baltimore cops are the focus of the our world as we watch the show, they're really small-time players.

And I didn't mind the Kima relationship angle. It didn't take much screen time, did it? I think she's a little clunky as an actor (as is her partner), but as a "it's rough being a cop" thing, it didn't bother me.

Anyway, hurry and keep watching. I think Season 4 is the best of the lot.

it worked insofar as it made plain that though the Baltimore cops are the focus of the our world as we watch the show, they're really small-time players.

This is a good point, albeit one that didn't occur to me at the time.

I should have added that it was tragic watching those mobsters hose all that cocaine down the sewers while Daniels' team typed out the warrant. I hope you see the costs of the so-called 'due process' you're always on about.

Really twitchy alligators?

I think Season 4 is the best of the lot

Why? I'm not saying it's not, but it didn't leap out at me that way.

And I'll look forward to reading your season 2 wrap. I should be ready for it in about 72 hours. The wire obsession in my household is so great that we are outstripping netflix delivery times and going straight to the videostore. (like animals)

33 is me
and with 34 SB, you flummox me. What?

it was tragic watching those mobsters hose all that cocaine down the sewers... I hope you see the costs of the so-called 'due process' you're always on about.

I've never understood all the hating on Zyg. Is it just that people don't like him? I agree, he's not likable. But that seems to have been the intent of Simon, et al in creating his character.

Unf!

Ironically, many people hate Ziggy, although he is likeable.

And another thing people. Given that Zyg is of Polish descent, his name is almost certainly a shortened for of Zygmunt. I.e., its Zyg, not Zig. And while we're on the topic, Kima, not Keema. Finally, Mouzone, not Mouzon.

Unf!

This is what I said about Ziggy in the Season 2 post.

First, he's just not very believable as a character, because he's too fucked up and volatile; it's all a bit over the top. And it's not just that the one character is a bit much, but he has a fairly central role, so there's something like a deus ex Ziggy effect on the plot as a whole. For example, Frank never goes to the fateful meeting under the bridge if Ziggy isn't in jail.

Zyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyg.

Aren't you Republicans supposed to stick together, Unf?

In re Ziggy, suck it Mr. Deduction.

No doubt he wasn't written as a hero. The problem is that he ends up as an absurd joke of a character. Not a glimmer of gravitas to him, too ridiculous for pathos, and, as a result, not fully plausible. No member of the Barksdale crew was so fully contemptible. And we saw more of him in season two than of almost any other character. That's an error. If anyone is the correlate to Ziggy from season one, it's Wallace. That, with the D'Angelo/Niko exchange, is why season two isn't as good as season one. String, look at me, where's Wallace?

Then HBO don't know shiznit.

I see that in a previous thread, Lemieux claimed that both Seasons 3 and 2 were better than 1. Clearly, Lemieux is an alligator.

I find Zyg to be a finely realized fuck-up. And while it does not have the emotional heft of the Where's Wallace scene, or the scene in which Wallace gets got (which is, in my opinion, one of most powerful scenes ever shown on TV), the scene where Zyg gets punked by doubly G, returns to shoot the stockboy and kill double G, and then tries to light a smoke in his car afterwards is some pretty excellent TV.

Dude, he had "Z-I-G-G-Y" tatooed on his knuckles.

That was a good scene, I agree.

Then he is ignorant of his proud, Polish heritage. In honor of Casimir Pulaski, I will continue to call him Zyg.

Why? I'm not saying it's not, but it didn't leap out at me that way.

**season 4 spoilers**

I haven't thought this through, but my quick answer would be something like this:

--The story of each boy was emotionally compelling. This must have been incredibly difficult to pull off, but each of the kids is complex and distinct and believable.

--With the kids, I think the show did the best job yet (subtle, realistic, heartbreaking) of showing how social and institutional forces overwhelm individual agency. The four boys are all good (that's probably my main complaint about the season, but we'll leave that for another day) and at times have adults looking out for them, but they quite believably end up as drug dealers and murderers.

--It makes academics look ridiculous

--They managed to make the death of Bodie--Wallace's killer!--a sad and shattering moment. For that alone, someone deserves an award.

I think I had other reasons, but I'll need to watch again to remember them.

The seasons of the Wire, in descending order of excellence:

1
4
3
2

Then he is ignorant of his proud, Polish heritage.

That's almost certainly true. Even if we grant that Zygmunt is a plausible screw up, I think the decision to make him what he was, instead of a more sympthetic character ensnared in vice, diminished the emotional impact of season two. I didn't much care that Ziggie ended up in jail. I cared a lot about Wallace. Ziggy never handed out juice boxes.

My Polish uncle Ziggy also spells his name with an "i".

Could Unf be more pwned on The Ziggy Question? Maybe you should go back to lurking.

Ziggy's real name is Chester.

Lech Walensa's son's given name is "Ziggie"

IMDB is notoriously unreliable. And there's no "n" in Walesa. Having grown up on the mean streets of Chicago, I know my Poles.

"Walesa." I can only back you so far, baa.

I still love Season 2, even though I recognise all the faults identified here, because it brought a completely alien class alive to me. I know less about the struggles of white union workers than I do about black dealers, unfortunately. The port and union system was fascinating to me, and, really, Season 2 was about Frank, not his son or nephew.

The actor James Ransone lives in a ziggurat.

Ziggy had God-given ass.

'Least that's what I've heard.

IMDB is notoriously unreliable.

Keep sucking it.

Your taunting may just lead me to start posting again.

Now there's an idle threat.

I submit that you don't even remember the login page, or your password.

Prove him wrong, unf!

If you email me, unf, I will breach the sanctity of the off-blog communication in order to mock you.

In the words of the immortal proprietor, sure you harp on my so-called spelling when you can't refute my substance.

This blog needs more unf!

--It makes academics look ridiculous

Dude, show me the program that doesn't make academics look ridiculous. Making academics look ridiculous is a staple of American television. Maybe American culture.

My favorite is season 3, because Stringer is my favorite character.

Damn, I got greedy.

I was totally kidding about the academics. I actually thought the portrayal of the academic as an ignorant ninny was strained--someone in his position probably wouldn't be that ignorant. I let it pass because the tables turned in the Mayor's office.

I can't tell who I want more to see go down in Season 5: Marlo Stanfield or Clay Davis.

Clay is the giant mutant cockroach of fictive Baltimore.

The actor who plays Clay Davis is in a Verizon ad that's running right now; is that good enough for you?

I don't much care what happens to Marlo, since he seems to be all symptom, rather than root cause.

I do hate Clay Davis.

I only wish Stringer had put out that hit on him. Clay Davis shouldn't have been so off-limits, given all those many dirty sources his money came in from.

Marlo is a psychopath, though.

Clay Davis is at least comprehensible. Marlo is a big bowl of wrong.

The guy who plays Clay is also the character I'd most want to punch in 25th Hour.

is also also plays

Clay Davis is at least comprehensible.

Marlo isn't? Has he done anything unreasonable (by the rules of his trade)?

Clay taking Stringer for a ride is one of the show's best plotlines.

I've got to drag things back to season 2 for a second here:

The port and union system was fascinating to me, and, really, Season 2 was about Frank, not his son or nephew.

I think you're right here. Even though Zig probably ends up with more screen time, Frank is the linchpin of the season's arc and the character I spent more time thinking about. I don't think he has a direct analogue in season one, and the new territory the show can cover because of him contains a lot of interesting material.

Marlo must get got.

Has he done anything unreasonable (by the rules of his trade)?

Bodie thought so.

Bodie thought so.

Don't punt.

The guy who plays Clay is also the character I'd most want to punch in 25th Hour.

I don't even remember his character. Who was he?

Clay taking Stringer for a ride is one of the show's best plotlines.

Totally agree. That was brilliant stuff.

Don't punt.

I'm not; I agree with Bodie. Marlo is excessively eager to kill. So're Chris and whatsername, Felicia. With them it's not business; they like it. Stringer was all business, Avon was business plus honor: these guys like to kill.

92: He was the obnoxious cop who busted Ed Norton's character.

I forgot about the security guard, so you do have a point. But he doesn't kill Randy, even though Chris wants to, so there's that. Aside from the security guard, it seemed to me that Marlo was just very careful, and in his line of work careful means killing a lot people, as long as you can make the bodies disappear.

Has he done anything unreasonable (by the rules of his trade)?

This was one of the big questions for me during Season 4. We met Avon after he'd taken the towers, so perhaps Avon had been just as ruthless as Marlo is now?

But Marlo doesn't have family, doesn't have much in the way of loyalty, and certainly doesn't have a Stringer Bell next to him to point out the less violent advantage. The most positive thing in Marlo's life seems to be pigeons--not humanity in any incarnation.

Maybe if Avon had been as externally portrayed as Marlo is and at a similar time in his career, he would have been less comprehensible to us, less human and almost sympathetic. But I think the writers are trying to do something very different with Marlo.

I can agree that 56 is correct (although on second view of season 4 I might say 4, 1, 3, 2) so long as one qualification is clearly made:

1
4
3
2

some other HBO shows

everything else on tv

I confess, Marlo just doesn't interest me the way Stringer or Omar do.

Unf!

Huh, I even remember that sequence. He was a dick, especially in the interrogation room.

I mean, remember how McNulty said that he was happy to go up against Stringer? I find it hard, even now, to imagine him quite feeling the same way about Marlo.

101 to 95

Marlo interests me because I'm curious to see what these particular writers believe about him. He's almost a pure monster...but not quite. I've got enough faith in the complexity of this show that I'm waiting to understand more.

I find it hard, even now, to imagine him quite feeling the same way about Marlo.

Then again, Lester does say, "Yes sir, I'm proud to be chasing Mr. Marlo Stanfield." But I agree that he's not nearly as interesting. I would explain that by saying that he's just "the game" incarnate, and not really human in any way. Maybe this is just another way of saying that he's a psychopath. Avon and Stringer were tremendously disciplined, but is was discipline for them, because they were human and had other desires pulling them in other directions: Marlo is tougher to catch, but there's no internal drama with him.

102.--Sure, but that was a clash of the titans! McNulty might not have felt so strongly over time about the case had it only been about Avon Barksdale--the original target he pushed for.

104: Slate's interview with David Simon pretty strongly indicates that you're not going to be disappointed.

To elaborate on my season-3 love: the thing about Stringer was that he couldn't go legitimate, not for clichéd Butch Cassidy/Michael Corleone reasons, but because he had a naïve view of how legitimate the legitimate world is. That's what the Clay-Stringer bit was about; that's what Stringer's B-school for Hoppers was about.

I don't see any similar hook for Marlo's character, except for the pigeons, which are just a sketch, like Blofeld's cat, and not real.

he had a naïve view of how legitimate the legitimate world is

Great point.

I would argue that Season 4 is preparing us for a humanising of Marlo's crew.

***SPOILERS***

Chris beats down Michael's stepdad with a particular rage, clearly because of abuse in his own background. Snoop (Felicia) is gradually coming into shape as a comarade for some, when before she was pure nightmare. And part of the arc of Season 4 is watching Marlo learn to calculate politically in relation to the co-op, in some weird, belated form of socialisation.

So for me, one of the questions going into Season 5 will be: is Marlo capable of human emotions like empathy, regret, hope? I really wouldn't have thought so at the beginning of the season; he was set up to be a pure sociopath.

It was most interesting what they did with Prop Joe in season 4. He and Clay are Baltimore foci: intractable elements of the drug trade. Prop Joe might be eve more crucial to the operation than the Greek; Clay is certainly the biggest single human cause of stagnation in Bmore's efferts to do anything. So it was interesting to pit Marlo and Mayor Carcetti as two reciprocal upstarts, with Marlo's psychoses destabilizing even Prop Joe's setup but Carcetti proving to be malleable.

I would have enjoyed the second season more had I not been subjected to repeated sightings of Ziggy's schlong.

Speaking of contests, it now occurs to me that there definitely needs to be a cage match:

SEK vs. SK

Please note: where M/lls comes from, it's perfectly acceptable to pimp your girlfriend in a show fight.

Much more lip out of you, ogged, and I'm totally going to handle your finances, IYKWIM, AITTYD, ANGBWE.

And let's be clear, too. It's not a show fight, it's a nice-off.

And when it comes to nice, Sir Kraab rules. Anyway, SEK has already apparently conceded (he thinks that Derrida is the nicest person in the world).

He's trying to trick you: Derrida is dead.

It's not very nice to trick people, so that's a sort of loss anyway.

the thing about Stringer was that he couldn't go legitimate, not for clichéd Butch Cassidy/Michael Corleone reasons, but because he had a naïve view of how legitimate the legitimate world is.

I agree entirely with the above, and with the sentiment that this is the reason to love Season 3. Relatedly great was the dawning realization that Avon knew this was how Stringer's foray into the legitimate world was going to end, and that insight explains why he was #1 and Stringer #2.

Huh. No-one made the obvious "of course she's nice. Why else would she date you if not out of pity?" joke.

You guys are so nice.