For once, ogged, you are right. I approve of this standard because "ever-so-slightly-tanned" is my natural color. Booyah.
Unlike you, ogged, I am not so doctrinaire and small-minded as to demand one skin color for all. I have no truck with this notion of "proper" skin color that goes for everyone regardless of his or her personal situation, personality, history, etc etc etc.
I'm a denizen of blogdom who is not pale at all.
The palest white guys I know are physically fit, not obsessive, and unashamed of their bodies. They just don't tan. They're also some of the best looking white guys I know. (Black Irish, for instance, pale skin, dark hair, frequently hot.) I think it completely depends on your hair and skin, and with those in mind every shade can be a good shade. Uniformity of complexio n(or, rarely, elegantly placed freckles) make a much bigger difference.
I don't believe that Ogged actually wrote this post. I think Ben is sock-puppeting. No way does Ogged talk like that.
You, Ben, are under the pernicious influence of the po-mo, lit-crit, rainbow, everything is permitted crowd. A little sun might cure you of that, you know.
That pernicious influence is going to save Ben's soul.
Also, Ogged is racist.
"Ever-so-slight tan"? This is surely Fontana Labs, ever writing his sweet centrist love notes to the object of his desire.
Would ever-so-slightly-tanned be the color you get when your natural skin color is fairly dark but you sit inside in front of a computer blogging all day?
Ogged, are you saying that susan is ashamed of her body and out of shape? Because I think that would be somewhat rude.
All I'm saying here is that, based on the total Gestalt of my knowledge about susan, and that picture of her licentiously displaying her calves, she's working the pale, and there's nothing wrong with that.
My favorite skin color is actually a kind of dark Indian subcontinent coffee with a teensy bit of cream.
And I only say that to prove how non-racist I am.
My own version of an ever-so-slight, or indeed, a maximal tan, is most people's ever-so-slightly-greenish-slug-colored.
I tend to agree, but how does seasonal variance figure into your judgment, Ogged? A golden tan in the dead of winter does not imply health so much as genetic good luck, access to tropical/southerly climes, or a regular date with the tanning parlor.
You seem to believe, Susan, that luck shouldn't figure in our judgments about other people.
People who are tanned in winter sicken me. Or maybe fake tanning parlor tans sicken me—I might never have encountered a winter tan not so obtained.
Are we pretending to talk about skin color in purely aesthetic terms? Or are we going to admit that context matters here?
Hypothesis: those hailing from climes where the seasons don't appreciably change are less likely to appreciate the seasonal changing of skin tones.
Ben, you live in California; outdoor winter tans are not so unusual. I have one right now.
(Black Irish, for instance, pale skin, dark hair, frequently hot.)
This reminds me of something. In The Bonfire of the Vanities, there is a character who's described repeatedly as "black Irish", but as far as I can tell he is actually black. Was I reading it wrong, is he actually not supposed to be black, does Tom Wolfe not know what "black Irish" means (I had never heard the phrase myself before reading the book), can a black person be called "black Irish", or what?
What about freckles? Do they count as being ever-so-slightly?
does Tom Wolfe not know what "black Irish" means
This would certainly not surprise me in the slightest.
What about being rescued from being completely fish-belly white only by also being consistently flushed? Not that this question has any personal relevance or anything.
Forget tans -- I want to hear more about the Ben w-lfs-n/Susan sex tape.
And what precisely makes "tanning stock" more hearty than those who burn, cancer boy?
Hypothesis: those hailing from climes where the seasons don't appreciably change are less likely to appreciate the seasonal changing of skin tones.
I grew up in Chicago, which is how I know that during the winter, when we're all pale, we're also worse people: grumpy, vitamin D deficient, and sniffly.
To say that the ideal skin color is "ever-so-slightly-tanned" implies that one ideally ought to have pale skin that is darkened slightly by exposure to the sun, and furthermore that it is preferable to achieve this hue by sun exposure than to have the same hue occur naturally, as a result of of genetic disposition rather than exposure to the sun.
makes "tanning stock" more hearty than those who burn
More hearty in this particular sense, of course.
Ogged you've been assimilated. Do you drink wheatgrass?
Precisely right, MAE. (But it has to be a tannable pale.)
Susan, between the two of us, only one of us knows what wheatgrass is.
does Tom Wolfe not know what "black Irish" means
Maybe he thinks it refers to people like Phil Lynott.
30: In that case, m. leblanc may wish to reconsider her endorsement in 1 of ogged's ideal.
Maybe if you'd taken the time to learn about wheatgrass, you'd still have two whole kidneys.
30: Wait, seriously, am I the only non-white person here? Really? That can't possibly be true.
Wheatgrass is yummy, and contains many antioxidants, which are (as it happens) good for the skin.
Wait, seriously, am I the only non-white person here?
Nope. (Not that I am not white, but you are by no means alone.)
ogged, perhaps you are wildly mistaken about what "objectively best" means; perhaps you are nuts; perhaps you are trolling.
does Tom Wolfe not know what "black Irish" means
Probably.
It all depends on how you define "white," Saheli. All the Jews, for example, aren't white, except when they are.
That can't possibly be true.
It isn't true. Did we ever decide whether Jews are white or Mexican?
perhaps you are trolling
Who, Ogged? Never!!
That is the most boring bitter dispute I have ever read.
Do you still have the goggle tan, ogged?
Keep it down, y'all. Farber will hear you.
Do you still have the goggle tan, ogged?
Gone, gone, gone, PG. The first day I started swimming again, the lifeguard said, "Hey, you are white!" But I'll get it back; in fact, I'm going swimming right now.
This bitter dispute is more like it!
Ogged is, of course, on crack.
Let's take this to the next level.
Tan lines: hot or not?
Tan lines are super hot, but probably only because I don't tan.
I'm so pale that even when I'm tanned, I'm pale.
Tan lines are not hott. This fact kept me indoors for a very long time, as my creed was to be "all one color!" and I didn't know where the nudist beaches were.
52: "because I don't tan" s/b "because I view too much porn."
Hey, if you were physically incapable of tanning, you'd find them exotic, too.
Ha! The "Golden" Mean would be the exquisite colour of my Asian Offspring, none of this namby-pamby "ever-so-slight-tan" nonsense.
Speaking of coloured things one no longer finds odd: Yesterday, when I was importuning a tech at the local Verizon store to figure out why the Biophysicist's phone had decided to endlessly repeat a cycle of "Hello, Moto", followed by a dark screen, refusing to stop unless the battery was removed, I noted that Customer Service was staffed by three blondes: An Asian blonde, a Latina blonde and a Black blonde. A decade ago, this would have been an oddity, even in LA; now, it isn't. None of them, however, were of Ogged's preferred skin-colour.
Customer Service was staffed by three blondes
This explains much.
I'd postulate that people who actually expend energy trying to be "ever-so-slightly" this or that pretty much automatically suck. All things in moderation, especially moderation, and all that.
A friend of mine is both black and Irish, and would describe himself as "black Irish" if he had to, because anything else would be cumbersome and silly. But the old phrase ain't going out of fashion any time soon. I suppose if he was a communist he'd be red Irish as well, but everybody knows what a red Irishman looks like (except probablt Tom Wolfe).
This discussion and the Racist Compliments thread should make the Unfogged referrer logs a more interesting read from here on out.
Speaking of blond, I'm getting my hair done tomorrow, v. expensively. Should I go for some crazy color thing? And if so, what?
Color your hair ever so slightly tan.
I thought that "Black Irish" refered to those freakish Irish people with black hair, blue eyes, and the ability to tan to a deep mahogony.
seeing OFE's post reminds me of the green and pleasant land of pale and pasty people.
what are the descriptors used in high victorian lit for an attractive complexion? 'high color', 'freshly colored', etc. i'm trying to remember them.
every now and then hollywood or bbc will pick the right pigment-less girl, put her on the right iron-deficient diet, light her correctly, and make me think there's something to the old 'english rose' idea.
but what were the right words we used to use to compliment that color?
(a parallel: there's that great line in northanger abby when catherine is passing out of puberty, and austen says that her figure began to acquire consequence. ah, consequence. that's what we used to call it.)
You should get that crazy bright red all the old people in Europe have.
Hey, if you were physically incapable of tanning, you'd find them exotic, too.
Sez you.
64: See also Black Swede, e.g. my father. I, of course, prepared myself for life in the tropics by inheriting my mom's pallor, although I do tan a bit.
67: We call it peaches and cream, or delicate, or snow white, or old-fashioned. I actually think that that old-fashioned 1930s beauty is quite lovely.
68: I'm thinking red, actually.
The vitamin D thing is exactly right. If you live in a climate with long dark winters, drinking cod liver oil will rid your skin of the sickly pale appearance. Though it won't actually make you tan, of course. You'll still be lilly white (if lilly white you ever were), but your skin will look much healthier nonetheless. I suspect all ogged is really trying to say, insofar as he is being serious, is that skin is more attractive when healthy, which includes being neither sickly pale nor dangerously overbaked. Healthy pale skin and healthy dark skin are both very attractive.
Upon further inspection it seems that the character I was thinking of is not, in fact, black. He does seem to have a lot of resentment against those members of the ethnic majority who are prejudiced against him, at least for an Irishman in 1980s New York.
every now and then hollywood or bbc will pick the right pigment-less girl, put her on the right iron-deficient diet, light her correctly, and make me think there's something to the old 'english rose' idea.
but what were the right words we used to use to compliment that color?
"fair", right? "creamy"? (with its derogatory flipside, "whey-faced")
Diff'rent strokes, I suppose. Similarly, people who can draw make me a little weak in the knees, because I can just barely render recognizable stick figures.
62: I'd go for a nice ash, myself, punctuated by stripes of peach and lavender. Or blueberry Kool-Aid.
Bah. Let's not get into the whole "I'm not being a jerk, I just prefer people who are *healthy*" euphemism.
Red looks great on a lot of people, particularly if you're palish -- back when my hair was red, the reaction was very positive.
Yeah, I look fabulous with dark red hair. Although I have to say that 76 is actually quite a tempting idea.
B: Go with blue or fire engine red. You don't have a boss, students, or customers to answer to right now, so take advantage of it.
I am waiting for the next generation of genetic research, which I hope can explain in a simple, recessive-gene-blue-eyes kind of way why my baby niece has the most gorgeously even olive skin tone when both her parents are the palest, pinkest people you can imagine.
Until then, I mostly agree with Ogged. But I'm ashamed to admit it.
Pre-Biophysicist, I did burgundy cellophane, which looks fiery red in sunlight, but his ex-wife was a red-head, and I really don't want to remind him of her.
He returns the favour by not dithering in emergencies, unlike my ex-husband, and by not telling fart jokes at the Emmy awards.
Dishwater blond with flecks of gray is the objectively best hair color.
why my baby niece has the most gorgeously even olive skin tone when both her parents are the palest, pinkest people you can imagine
Cable guy.
81: You should never have introduced Ogged to the baby's mother.
83 to 80. I can't do burgundy, but I can do auburn. Hmmmmmm.
I agree with 84. Looking like Erma Bombeck is going to be the new ironic hipster move.
84 is my actual hair color, but gray doesn't show up hardly at all on blondes, which makes it boring.
Mousy brown with streaks of gray, on the other hand, is teh hottt.
I'd go for a nice ash
Wouldn't we all; but what about your the hair colorsh?
84 is my actual hair color
I hope my implication that you look like Erma Bombeck will be taken in the spirit of praise by faint damnation.
90: Exactly. It's all about the contrast.
91: Well, I've *got* the ass already.
Well, I'm going out to get some sunlight. SPF 50 should be enough protection; it is winter, after all. If I don't return, 'twas the heatstroke what done me in.
My people are not used to this much sun in winter. We like to stay inside on seasonably dark days and huddle up to the reindeer for warmth.
92: I love Erma Bombeck. I read all her books when I was a kid.
85, 86: You jest, but my sister just mentioned to me that she had finally met the new mailman. Yep, olive-skinned.
Seriously, it is quite remarkable. Our other sister can tan slightly, but the rest of the family, on both sides...nada.
Acne is the new tan. I'm sooo hot, especially my upper back.
You know what is kind of like Erma Bombeck, only a zillion times better? Shirley Jackson's housewifely writings, in which her essential freaky Shirley Jackson-ness comes creeping subtly through. I highly recommend Life Among the Savages.
Good to know. I heart Shirley Jackson's short stories, so I imagine I'll love it.
I really liked the story "Like Mother Used to Make". (By Jackson.) I'm not sure if that's the exact title, but it's something like that.
88: Don't such moves have to be post-ironic to qualify as hipsterism these days?
I've gotta say, this "bitter dispute" at sue's blog is remarkably tame.
Everyone north of Philadelphia should supplement with vitamin D in the winter.
Brock! Would you be up for a Boston-area meet-up sometime soonish? Arthegall or I would be glad to give you our cell phone numbers so that you don't get lost. Alternatively, we'll make a big sign.
What about being rescued from being completely fish-belly white only by also being consistently flushed?
Add jaundice, and you get a remarkably pleasant and healthy-looking coloration.
If you eat several pounds each of carrots and tomatoes every day, you turn a nice healthy orange -- an organic, vitamin-rich tan. There may be some flatulence and diarrhea involved, but hey! -- if you really want something, you'll be willing to pay the price.
Tomatoes and carrots cause cirrhosis?
Also, the whites of your eyes turn orange.
They say that too much vitamin A can lead, in a roundabout way, to cirrhosis.