The White Stripes link should be this.
I agree that's awesome (if that's what you meant) but I wanted to be fair and do studio version for studio version.
Your taste is "minimalist." Which is the most overused word ever. And you don't like music that's slick and over-produced. If that makes any sense.
Although that doesn't quite cover your objection to that particular Taj Mahal track.
Ogged likes the raw, the stripped-down, the real. He should listen to Gang of Four.
minimalist
I'm hoping to get even more technical than that, at least as an ideal--maybe everything I like (I use these terms in ignorance) is in 4/4 time, and everything I don't is in 5/8ths, or maybe I like syncopated and don't like not. But maybe it will come down to things like "minimalist."
Gang of Four
Just listened to a couple of songs. Doesn't work for me.
It is extremely unlikely that you'll be able to nail down your musical tastes very much by meter.
Actually, you should listen to some rembetika.
The compilation Songs of the Manghes 1928–1938 comes highly recommended.
What about The Ex?
They did a fantastic live set on WFMU: http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/21696
Hold off on the defeatism until comment 30 or so.
Why do you recommend rembetika, Ben? I just listened to the first three tracks on Rembetika: The Ottoman Legacy 1925-1937 and I kind of dig it, though I'm not sure I'd listen to it except rarely.
Ogged likes the raw, the stripped-down, the real. He should listen to Gang of Four.
It sounds like the raw that he likes isn't so much in the production as in the form that the music derives from. He likes pop whose melodic structures are blues-like; he doesn't like songs whose form descends from pop in the sense in which "pop" used to be opposed to folk and blues.
So, not surprising that he doesn't like Gang of Four. Based on his dislike of that Bloc Party song, we can also confidently predict that he'd hate the English Beat.
I just discovered the Gang of Four and my second though, after deciding they were good was, "I bet w-lfs-n likes this."
Have you listened to anything off Richard Thompson's 1000 years of popular music, I'd be curious whether that's to your taste (you probably want to try to listen to songs from the middle of the show since the early stuff is deliberately strange, and the later songs are very poppy). Though Richard Thompson's voice annoys some people.
I would also not have expected ogged to like Gang of Four
he doesn't like songs whose form descends from pop in the sense in which "pop" used to be opposed to folk and blues
This sounds promising; what does this mean, bza?
How do you feel about Pavement, Ogged?
Pavement
Just sampled bits from a few songs, but don't think it's my thing.
What I had in mind is that two of the main ingredients feeding into rock/pop as we know it are blues and 50s dancehall pop (think Pattie Page as an extreme example). You can categorize a lot of rock in terms of which element is dominant. Thus: Buddy Holly has a lot of dance/pop, but little blues; Elvis had measures of both. The Stones were mainly blues based; The Beatles involved much more dance/pop.
I liked that Bloc Party song, too.
OK, I think I see a pattern. How do you like Colombian gaiteros?
19 may explain why Ogged mistakenly dislikes Elvis Costello.
I know you like blues and some singer/songwriter material, but I'm curious how you feel about more stripped down folky singer/songwriter music. That doesn't get to pop, but I'm thinking about music that shows its roots.
Can you find a copy of Dave Goulder's "proper little gent" (which seems unfogged appropriate) or "dry stone walls"? (lyrics for the latter here)
ogged likes bangy-waah-waah-waah. He dislikes doody-waah-waah.
I see that there are some Dave Goulder audio samples on his website but I have no idea what their quality is.
I only clicked the first two links, and I liked the Bloc Party and hated the White Stripes. On quick inspection, the difference seems obvious: black people. Block Party has'em, and White Stripes don't.
Ogged is on a quest for authenticity in music.
Nothing to do with this thread at all, but I figure one of you out there speaks Spanish well enough to tell me how to write out "Please do not paint *any* of the wood" and "Please do not paint this part of the wall". I get as far as "Por favor no pinte la madera", but after that, I lose the subtleties. I've got people coming in the morning to paint and it's important that they not repaint the cabinetry and moulding I spent weeks stripping of 50 years of enamel. I understand more Spanish than I speak, I'm afraid, and I don't want the crew to misunderstand me. Thanks,
I thought the Bloc Party song was alright, if a little forced. It was plainly crushed by the White Stripes.
what to do if your musical taste has been so informed by your sense of irony that there is no separating the two, what then?
26 is the musical expression of what I was trying to say.
28: And yet it's Bloc Party that sounds totally white. A conundrum.
i'm not sure what the taj mahal link is, so this might be dumb, but have you listened to corrina? i love that song.
based on white stripes & be good tanyas, have you listened to okkervil river? i recommend "no key no plan" and "the president's dead."
also, way back during the summer, i put a random mix in the grab bag i left at whatever midtown bar people picked for th meet-up. i still wonder if it found a loving home.
i've mentioned it before when de-lurking, but the drive by truckers are still fantastic southern rock. good starter tracks are "decoration day", ""goddamn lonely love", and "outfit."
And yet it's Bloc Party that sounds totally white
Yep.
Ogged, have you ever listened to the Black Keys? I'm guessing they'll be right up your alley.
I do like Buddy Holly, but let's not let that confound us.
Oh, and of course I hate the Stones with a passion, but let's also not let that confound us.
39: Yeah, Lily Allen is a lot of fun.
Fuck ogged and his complications. I think you're on to something here, bza. The pop-blues axis is one axis, but it doesn't seem to explain the second pair of songs, both of which I hate.
You might like the 13th Floor Elevators.
Yes! That song is awesome. Thanks.
(Listening as fast as I can.)
43: I think you need to throw away that copy of Hot Rocks and listen to Exile on Main Street.
How do you like Colombian gaiteros?
I like the song you linked a lot.
it doesn't seem to explain the second pair of songs, both of which I hate.
Female vocalists.
49: See, that's knowledge production at work. OTOH, the Go-Gos are a favorite of mine.
The pop-blues axis is one axis, but it doesn't seem to explain the second pair of songs, both of which I hate
Timbot, you ignoramus, the Be Good Tanyas song is a cover of a Blind Willie Johnson song.
Ogged, have you ever listened to the Black Keys? I'm guessing they'll be right up your alley.
I'm not sure I had, but a few of the songs I just sampled I liked quite a bit. Y'all might be on to me. What's the heuristic you're using, music-I-like recommenders?
Yeah, that works. I should think of music I like that isn't that.
Oh, and I forgot to add: you have terrible taste in music.
We need more data, Ogged. But I also think that the time between comment n (rec for Ogged) and comment n+1 (dismissal by Ogged) can't be enough time for Ogged to have given the music much of a listen.
What about TV on the Radio? That's blues infused.
given the music much of a listen
Generally, I figure I know in about 20 seconds whether I'll like a band. I've never found that giving them more of a chance has helped.
What about TV on the Radio?
Too layered, I'd think. But here, what do you think, ogged?
I agree with 57. Now will read the thread.
AS a further test, what do you think of Feist? (live recording, doesn't really get going until a minute in)
We need more data, Ogged.
I'm thinking. Here, I love this Malinky song.
What about TV on the Radio?
Not doing it for me.
57 is depressing.
It's also been true of people, you Nazi child-molester.
The problem with Ween is, they seem to be in on the joke. That's not good enough. I'm at the stage where I enjoy the Neil Diamond output of the early 1980s, and I'm not just trying to be funny.
what do you think of Feist?
A couple of weeks ago I was thinking that I really ought to like Feist, but I wound up not managing it.
By the way, I don't mean to diss all these bands; I'm aware that I have extremely narrow musical tastes; I'm just trying to figure out what they are.
64: I swear, that Nazi girl looked eighteen!
And I like some Balkan music, like the first 1:20 of this.
Why not create two stations on Pandora (see link) -- one with songs you like, one with songs you hate. Pandora will find commonality for you. It will also recommend songs that fit the profile it built.
It isn't the "overproduced" thing--Ogged likes Journey, after all. Which also craps on the "blues" argument, b/c a less bluesy band there almost ain't. Probably the "authenticity" thing gets it--and since there's little more earnestly wankerish than being hung up about musical authenticity, I'm sure it's right.
30: Favor de no pintar *ningun parte* de la madera. Y tambien, favor de no pintar *este* parte de la muro. (I think "muro" is wall--you might want to check. And I'm sure that my translations are stilted and schoolbookish, but they're clear.)
Pandora
Playing with Pandora is what got me asking this question.
Where did the actual musicians go? Where are Labs and McG when I need them?
I do like Journey (a few of their songs, anyway) and I do like Pearl Jam. There, I said it. Also Nirvana, of course, and some Soundgarden tunes.
Whaddya need them for, ogged? I'm telling you, Bangy-Waah-Waah-Waah. Wicky-Wicky-Waah. Bang-Bang-Bangy-Waah-Whomp-Waah-Waah.
Success! Feel free to download the whole album from the linked directory. All the songs are very similar although they're performed by different people.
Since you'll also need names of artists, try Totó la Momposina.
And if you like Balkan music you can look for a band called Farmers Market. They're Eastern European and it will probably be hard to find. Along those lines you might also like Estradasphere, who are from Santa Cruz.
My knowledge of most music is so pitiful I'm not going to mention the things I've never heard. Suffice it to say that I have trouble appreciating anything where guitars are the main element. I prefer horns, pianos, and/or synthesizers.
77: Like I said, schoolbookish. But it's clear enough, and I didn't see *you* offering help.
73: Nirvana is excellent, but definitely more punk than blues. Autheniticity out the ass, though: nothing like blowing your head off to prove you really *are* that depressed.
B, I'm trying to avoid terms like "authenticity" and focus on musical similarities.
Bangy-Waah-Waah-Waah. Wicky-Wicky-Waah. Bang-Bang-Bangy-Waah-Whomp-Waah-Waah.
If only they labeled music with text terms, I'd be all set.
ogged, your ignoring my analysis is making me sad.
79: I was going to, but you got there first.
(DE: B's version is good, but the last part should really be "del muro." There should also be some accent marks in there, but it's perfectly understandable without them.)
83 written before having read 82. I like music that goes: Hauauuuh Hauauuh huuh huuh.
81: Yeah, but why talk about music in technical terms? Not that I wouldn't like to be able to do it a little bit better myself (meaning: at all), but like any art, speaking about form doesn't really express why it moves you. The only way to do that is to embrace the metaphoric, inexact language. Sorry.
84: I can't be bothered to type accent marks. Or upside-down punctuation, or the tilde, or a proper cedilla, or any of the other non-English stuff that requires memorizing weird keystrokes. Good enough is good enough.
In this thread, I want to talk about it technical terms.
But why? Let's talk about that, instead.
Also, I got asked to blog for a well-known hipster porn site. For money. Should I do it?
last FM has a similar artist lists that are based on social rather than sound based affinities.
http://www.last.fm/music/Mississippi+John+Hurt/+similar
http://www.last.fm/music/The+Be+Good+Tanyas/+similar
The list for the gang of four is pretty good:
http://www.last.fm/music/Gang+of+Four/+similar
86 gets it exactly right. Saw them opening for U2 a couple of months ago. Pretty much 100% pure undifferentiated noise, aside from a cover of an Israel Kamakawiwoole song and a cover of Baba O'Reilly. Also, a concert in a stadium is a really stupid waste of 100 bucks, I only intermittently like U2, people in really large crowds suck even more than people generally, and it is possible to doze off in the middle of a very loud concert if you're tired enough.
I haven't heard any of Pearl Jam's new stuff (and new mean less than ten years old), but I sure did like their first album when it came out.
Even worse than Pearl Jam singing Pearl Jam are long-haired, vaguely skeezy undergraduate men playing Pearl Jam covers for you on their expensive electric guitars, unplugged. This has happened to me at least twice.
last FM has a similar artist lists that are based on social rather than sound based affinities.
Interesting. The blues stuff is mostly stuff I like. The BGT's list suffers from the "stuff I like sounds a lot like stuff I hate" problem, and I don't know most of the bands on the third list.
I will now break to sing "elderly woman" alone in my apartment.
Ogged, can you weigh in on the Rezillos vs. the Undertones?
the Rezillos vs. the Undertones?
Interesting. While I don't think I'd add either to my rotation, so to speak, I would secretly hope that my counterfactual cool friend would be playing the Rezillos when I went over to visit, and the Undertones are kinda cute, which might not be what they're going for.
Dude's singing falsetto, the least you can do is find him cute. Okay, my calibration is off -- let me try another close pair:
Goblin Cock or Pinback?
Ogged likes Nick Drake? Maybe he'd like John Martyn's cover of "I'd Rather Be the Devil" or some other material from Solid Air.
I recommended rembetika for the entirely shallow reason that it's often referred to as the Greek blues—music played by poor Greeks in Turkish hash dens and whatnot.
I find TV on the Radio pretty uneven, myself, but like the songs of theirs I like a good deal.
What an unjust example of a Pinback song that is! Boretastic.
Goblin Cock or Pinback?
Neither of thoes is doing much for me, but the Pinback is doing particularly little. (Are you putting me in the middle of your domestic disputes?)
The reason I chose those songs was that Rob Crow is the songwriter in both bands, but rfts is right that it wasn't particularly representative of either one.
Neither of thoes is doing much for me, but the Pinback is doing particularly little. (Are you putting me in the middle of your domestic disputes?)
Even in your peoples' heathen lands, they understand that a woman's role is to acknowledge the superiority of Pinback's first album, Blue Screen Life.
Maybe he'd like John Martyn's cover of "I'd Rather Be the Devil" or some other material from Solid Air.
I'm listening to "Go Down Easy" right now and enjoying it. But I have a friend who I think would love it, so that's good.
Not that Ogged will like it anyhow, but here's some teenager's video accompanied by the studio version of Pinback's Penelope. Hand claps!
My working assumption is that Ogged will like Sham 69 better than either the MC5 or The Jam. Let me know if I'm pegging this right.
Goblin Cock?
Band of gay, high school dungeons and dragons players who love puns?
syracuse is my favorite pinback song.
pop 4ever!
110 - I don't know Rob Crow well enough to comment on anything but the pun part. The last album's name (Bagged and Boarded) suggests you're at least two for three.
"Let me know if I'm pegging this right."
a little slower, actually.
ogged likes Nick Drake? How is he not a mewling wussy?
My working assumption is that Ogged will like Sham 69 better than either the MC5 or The Jam. Let me know if I'm pegging this right.
Correct! Although that MC5 song isn't bad.
ogged likes Nick Drake? How is he not a mewling wussy?
It's a mystery. But I like Nick Drake a lot.
Ok, Ogged, try the Fred McDowell record I Do Not Play No Rock and Roll, particularly the songs "Red Cross Blues" and his version of "Kokomo." Let me know.
It's odd. I am thinking I have a handle on what you like, but not enough to make confident recommendations. Or at least a lot of them. This might help: How do you feel about deep southern blues (Stax, like Otis Redding, or Hi Records, like Ann Peebles, or the like?)
I was a little thrown by your animosity to the Stones. Someone noted Exiles on Main Street. Have you tried that?
also, surely you've tried Howling Wolf?
Failing to find any Dave Goulder online, I'm curious what you think of this (the pogues recorded a great version of that song as well).
Also, following 117, how do you feel about Soul music? Was your mention of Curtis Mayfied recently an endorsement?
I was listening to Fred McDowell earlier today, Tom. Great stuff.
You guys are going to make me listen to the Stones, eh?
And of course I've only heard one Otis Redding song. Let me give it a whirl.
Otis Redding:
"That's How Strong My Love Is"
"I've Been Loving You"
"Pain In My Heart"
"Try A Little Tenderness"
Well, almost any of it as far as I'm concerned, but those are pretty great.
Ah, I have heard Try a Little Tenderness, and like it a lot.
Almost all Otis Redding songs are great, I would also recommend "Hard to Handle" as a different mood.
There's a great Etta James cover of "I've been loving you too long" that is very faithful to the original.
I'm listening to the Big O's (original) version of "Respect." what about that Ogged?
Phew.
Ok, Otis Redding is awesome. I kinda doubt anyone else singing these songs could make me like them, however.
What do you think of the Strokes, ogged? I'm guessing you don't like them. I'm guessing my affinity for the Strokes is evident of some character weakness.
Failing to find any Dave Goulder online, I'm curious what you think of this (the pogues recorded a great version of that song as well).
A touch precious for my taste. Add a twenty-year smoking habit to the guy's voice and it might work. (And now, back to strictly technical discussion!)
What do you think of the Strokes, ogged? I'm guessing you don't like them. I'm guessing my affinity for the Strokes is evident of some character weakness.
You're a lot more defensive since you've been engaged, textaroo. Is she beating you? But I thank you for reminding me about The Strokes, which was the band I was trying to think of in order to say that they're kinda like the White Stripes, but I don't like them. Now stop pilfering pens from work.
You should listen to Otis Redding doing "I Been Loving You Too Long" in a live performance.
If you want a band that sounds like the White Stripes but you won't like, try the Black Keys.
For a better band, try Blanche.
130 -- then you should listen to the Pogues version off Rum Sodomy and the Lash
No, seriously. There's something about The Strokes--they're a little self-indulgent, or showy--which should make a person dislike them, only I still like them. Maybe because I'm self-indulgent in the same way.
But Otis Redding's Fa Fa Fa song has only good things to say for it.
Ned, we talked about the Black Keys upthread, and Blanche is not at all to my taste.
Redding's Fa Fa Fa song
Yeah, just listened to it. It's good.
130 -- then you should listen to the Pogues version off Rum Sodomy and the Lash
Listened to a little bit at last.fm. Ok, but don't love it.
I just asked a friend with some musical training to read the post. Apparently, it's not going to be as simple as 4/4 time. Was worth a shot.
138 -- okay, I'm slightly surprised.
Question, when you are determining the apeal of a song, how would you weight the following elements:
1) Vocals
2) Lyrics
3) Musical Proficiency
4) Musical Texture
Which of those do you key in on first, when listening to a song?
As a semi-non-sequitur, I will now link to a video of a song that I can't imagine anyone not liking, and anyone who wants to can explain why they don't like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkMQRpBnf4A
I was originally thinking of, for example, what makes a guitar player sound "bluesy". But, thinking about it I'm not sure that I can make a clear definition.
Perhaps I just mean the ability to convey emotion through the instrument -- as opposed to ability to generate the widest range of sounds from an instrument.
To use another example, I'm thinking of the instumental equivalent of what separates Tom Waits and David Bowie as singers -- both are great singers, David Bowie clearly has a much wider range of vocal stylings at his disposal than Tom Waits, but he still couldn't sound like Tom Waits if he tried.
I just asked a friend with some musical training to read the post. Apparently, it's not going to be as simple as 4/4 time. Was worth a shot.
Didn't I say that in comment seven, ogged?
Okay. I'd probably cite 'narrative coherence' as the single biggest attractor to a song for me. A good song should feel structured, go somewhere, build somewhere.
I've noticed this more when I listen to tracks that are supposed to be experimental or tone poems... and I can't figure out where they're going.
Other than that, I'd rate lyrics pretty low as I never can remember what anyone sings. I probably key in on vocals (too many years playing treble/melody instruments), unless the rhythm is particularly good.
For me the bigest question is one that isn't on there, do I find the music interesting or boring. I want the highlights of the song to be both surprising and overdetermined when they arrive.
Didn't I say that in comment seven, ogged?
It was too soon, Ben. Hope. Faith. Magic!
143: 5. Length
No matter what the style, I prefer my songs to be at least 7 minutes long. There is a little logic to this, because longer songs will have instrumental breaks, anthemic chants, interesting structures and time changes, whatever.
But Louis Armstrong wrote 3 minute symphonies in the 20s.
I gave up on this thread when Ogged didn't like Taj Mahal.
Wait! Musical friend now suggests that perhaps I like songs that are slightly "behind the beat." I don't know what this means.
I think it means your friend is hitting on you.
"behind the beat"
This, to me, would mean a slight hesitation returning to the one-beat of a song, as is common in many blues songs, when they return to the top of the form and everything hangs juuuuuuust a bit before releasing. Of course, I play drums and thus know nothing about music.
Here's something:
BEAT PLACEMENT--Most professional bass and drum masters understand the subtleties of "beat placement." Essentially there are three ways of playing "time" in any musical situation:
1) on TOP of the beat (slightly ahead of the metronome click)
2) in the MIDDLE of the beat (dead center with the metronome click)
3) BEHIND the beat (slightly behind the metronome click)
Although I could literally write a whole novel about the beat placement and its effect, I won't go into great detail now. Just understand and be aware that the subtle difference of where you place your note makes the truly great rhythm section players stand apart from the rest.
As a guideline, I tend to play straight-ahead jazz slightly ahead of the beat. With rock and country music, I tend to play right in the middle of the beat. With funk, blues, hip-hop and gospel, I will play slightly behind the beat.
It certainly matches up with my personal jazz=barf, country/rock=cool, blues=awesome ranking.
Hard to tell what it really means without something to listen to.
156: I agree with that assessment, sort of. And the White Stripes' drummer certainly does play behind the beat. Perhaps, for you, this is a feature not a bug.
I'll take this fucker to 160 by myself if I have to.
Ogged, can you tell us specifically what you like or dislike about some of the linked songs? That might help.
Not really. That's the problem. I just make a muddle puddle of words when I try to explain what I like and don't like about music.
160: Luckily, you didn't have to.
161: I think the answer to that must be "no," otherwise he wouldn't be asking us to do it for him.
Well, at this juncture, it bears mentioning that "Hotel Yorba" is the best thing ever done by the White Stripes.
If you don't like it, it's off to Guantánamo.
163: good point; this is hopeless.
I agree that Hotel Yorba is a good song, but now you've corrupted the purity of my enjoyment with your threats of detention. Way to go.
Re-listening to your three approved songs on the original post, I agree that all three have a rhythm that "drags" slightly (not in a bad way) or is "behind the beat" slightly. I'd be surprised if every song you like fit this pattern (cf. Journey).
Really, it's okay for you to have eclectic tastes—tastes that don't necessarily make sense. For example, I think that most of what Coldplay does is CRAP, but Lisa Loeb's "Stay" is glory on a pancake, and I'll fight to the death to defend it. It's all subjective, man.
I cannot enjoy Hotel Yorba if I watch the video. A music video should not make me want to kick the bands ass.
It would be very cool if people got into the habit of labeling music with things like "behind the beat" or even "blues-based lo-fi."
Stanley, it's late and all, but maybe sometime you'll be able to explain to me what "behind the beat" means. When you say the rhythm drags, I truly have no idea what that means.
167: I say, kick away. I have a recording and that's enough.
168-9: Yeah, I understand. It is late, and I'm going to sleep.
Behind versus ahead of the beat might be a good marker. Bloc Party, for example, are off that British post-punk school that tends to play slightly on or ahead of the beat -- which gives an edgy, choppy feel to the music. White Stripes do that bluesy thing of laying back and lingering a fraction behind it.
re: 146
Bluesy usually equals chord progression based on the 12 bar form centred around the I, IV and V chords. That would be, for example, C, F and G in the key of C.
Then, typically, the use of the minor (or sometimes major) pentatonic scale - C, Eb, F, G, Bb in the key of C - plus various 'blue' notes such as the b5 (F# in the key of C). As Emerson said in another thread, it's common to play a note in between a minor and major 3rd i.e. like a slightly flattened E.
Then, stylistically, there'll be bent notes, especially bending the 4th up to the 5th (F to G), the minor 3rd up to the 4th (or the major 3rd or somewhere in between), etc. On the guitar that usually means using one of 2 or 3 pentatonic 'box shapes' to solo over the chords and then bending a few standard notes.
Also, Ogged, your taste seems to lean more towards riff driven blues progressions rather than more 'urban' chordal playing with solos.
Robin Frederick she was a member of the Incredible String Band. This is an article about Nick Drake from a musician's viewpoint;Drake's used of clustered chords and other stuff. Ogged did say he liked Drake.
"Most songwriters begin a melodic phrase near the first beat of a measure or as a pickup to the first beat. In blues songs, it's often laid back onto Beat 2. (You can hear this on Been Smokin' Too Long.) But Nick usually starts on Beat 3, and often ends on Beat 3 as well." ...RF;there is a lot more
Since I don't know what she is talking about, it may not be relevant.
Thanks much, Matt. I guess what I need to get my head around is that there's a beat independent of what the musicians are playing.
re: 73
Yeah, there's a sort of virtual beat, around which the musicians may be centred, even if they aren't actually playing on that beat. Like a click track, in their head.
I'm off to bed, but tomorrow I'm going to see if there are samples somewhere on the web to demonstrate this beat business.
Thanks, all! Very helpful, and lots of fun, actually.
re: 175
If I remember, I may have time to record a quick sample tomorrow. Although by that time, this discussion will probably be dead.
I'll still be interested! (It would be awesome if you could do it, but don't put yourself out on account of imaginary me.)
re: 177
I'll do it if I have time, it'll give me an incentive to plug my guitar gear in for the first time in a long time and might be fun. Also shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
If I don't have time, I won't (and won't feel guilty!).
I think the ultimate in subterranean-fi blues-based music is Mr Airplane Man. Their version of "Jesus is on the Mainline" appears to involve guitar slides made of concrete.
ogged likes Nick Drake? How is he not a mewling wussy?
Remember, Ogged unironically likes Journey, who made some of the wussiest mewling imaginable.
If what you like is singers who are behind the beat, you definitely need to check out more deep southern soul than Otis Redding, because that's a chaacteristic of many of the singers. I'll try to come up with other examples later today.
It certainly matches up with my personal jazz=barf, country/rock=cool, blues=awesome ranking.
Have you tried any alt-country?
Jazz can be played behind the beat. Ogged, you're making the baby Coltrane cry. You just don't like eighth notes, that's all.
And the White Stripes' drummer certainly does play behind the beat.
I wonder if this is intentional, or just because she's the worst drummer on the radio right now. I love their music, too.
ogged's preference for "behind the beat" music makes me wonder whether I should bother to mention the awesomeness of breakbeat.
because she's the worst drummer on the radio right now
Yes.
Pretty much the hallmark of swing playing in jazz is being behind the beat (along with an emphasis on the 2 and the 4).
185: yes.
I'm coming to this discussion late but I'll add a few, ogged.
Since you like the white stripes, do you like the raconteurs?
do you like stuff like modest mouse? I wonder if we can narrow things down a bit
people have mentioned a few well known names, here are some perhaps less well known ones...
playing loosely off liking BGT's; acts you may not have run into and have recent recordings: bonnie `prince' billy, okkerville river and/or shearwater (young, but promising), califone (perhaps stretching it, but they are great), iron & wine, cat power, the silver jews, maybe grizzly bear.
harder stuff, perhaps too far from your stated likes: frog eyes, wolf parade, less savy fav (post punk, and you said you liked some punk), dresden dolls (perhaps)
have you looked into a lot of texas blues? Tried stuff like blind lemon jefforson, charlie patton?
Oh, and if you didn't know Jolie Holland was in the BGT's for a bit and has an album `Escondida' you'll probably like. Along those lines somewhat, try Neko Case's `Blacklisted' too.
I don't know what's up with my inconsistent captialization, either.
If ogged wants to look into some of the more techno-y stuff, here's an approachable track from Breakbeat Era. Don't be distracted by the visuals.
No techno stuff for me, thanks.
I did know about Jolie Holland, but didn't like Escondida. In fact, I think it's a good bet that I'll dislike anything that sounds like the Be Good Tanyas.
Tried stuff like blind lemon jefforson, charlie patton?
Of course! That's the stuff I love.
No techno stuff for me, thanks.
Wuss.
I've only found techno enjoyable on drugs.
Then you didn't take enough of them, apo.
Amon Tobin is techno for people who hate techno.
Have you listened to Howling Wolf, Ogged?
197: I doubt that very much, JM.
But Amon Tobin is also really great!
While I recognize Howlin' Wolf's awesomeness, it's not something I'm keen to listen to much.
Amon Tobin
Now you guys are just fucking with me.
Have you listened to Hobart Smith, ogged? You should check out the Revenant label, Jack Rose, and maybe Joe Henry's Trampoline.
ogged, I am also a fan of the Be Good Tanyas, and now I am a fan of you.
I've met both of them, eekbeat, and I say stick with Stanley.
The title track to Trampoline, "Trampoline", would be a good one to listen to if you're curious.
194: Try Neko Case anyway, she doesn't sound like the BGT's.
190: Awesome though Wolf Parade and Les Savy Fav may be (and they truly, truly are), I'd be surprised if Ogged cared for them. Wolf Parade's vocals are a pretty tough obstacle, as are LSF's general abrasive magnificence. Still, good taste on your part.
Also, boo to anyone who dislikes Amon Tobin.
Hey, ogged, how do you feel about hip-hop? Even Sausagely admitted to liking the new Clipse. Do you have any interest in any music outside bluesey rock?
Oh, and Amon Tobin is awesome, but I liked him better when he was Cujo.
Amon Tobin must be too jazz inspired for Ogged to like him.
Wolf Parade is good, as is the other lupine inspired group: Wolf Eyes. Very different though.
But don't you all think this whole process has been absurd? Over 200 comments! It's like a bunch of court jesters each trying to offer the perfect fruit to the king.
Wolf Parade: not actually awesome.
211: I don't expect ogged to like all of that stuff, but was trying to explore the space.
ogged: what about tom waits, by the by?
David Holmes is my favourite ex-techno type. Although it's arguable that his stuff was never really techno at all.
Heart of Saturday Night Tom Waits or Raindogs Tom Waits?
I'm getting the sense that you like "gritty" vocals.
But don't you all think this whole process has been absurd? Over 200 comments! It's like a bunch of court jesters each trying to offer the perfect fruit to the king.
It's a little absurd, but this has been an ongoing concern on the blog, with me trying to understand other kinds of music, and the kind commenters trying to understand my narrow and untutled mind.
That's "untutored", philosopher.
I do like Neko Case, but she suffers from a bit of the same problem as Gillian Welch, which is that her voice is much better than her songs.
"Narrow" and "untutled" don't really go together, you know.
ogged: have you checked out `orphans' then?
220: it's all good, occasionally trending to sublime.
You must have a low opinion of the life of the mind, Ben.
Except for the first disc of Orphans, which is kind of not so good.
224: she's getting better material though; also `the tigers have spoken' live disc is pretty good.
Did you ever listen to any Joseph Spence?
Also this whole thing makes me think that you might enjoy some traditional sea shanty music, I'll see if I can find any good recommendations.
224 -- I think that's a fair description. I also had the reaction of wanting to like Neko Case, but just not finding it interesting enough.
Ok, so now the thread has pretty much devolved from "what's musically distinct" to "what do you like" which I do feel a little silly about. So don't mind me anymore. I should also add that I think there's a distinction between stuff that one thinks is good and stuff that one wants to listen to--there's a lot of stuff in the first category (for me, anyway), but much less in the second. Maybe most of the rest of you enjoy more stuff you think is good--maybe this is because you understand music and have more of an intellectual appreciation of the good stuff? Dunno.
228: you have a point; i haven't actually heard all of orphans yet. Consider my comment to apply to most of his catalogue. He has a couple of weak records; The Black Rider or Night on Earth (is that the title?) come to mind. Most of his catalogue is surprisingly good, considering the output.
184 is cracking me up. Poor little eighth notes.
232 Above is somewhat unfair, one is a movie score and the other an operetta: I don't blame him for doing either, but don't think either worked particularly well.
231: the point of my earlier post was to try and get more sample points from you; `distinct' is hard to pin down.
traditional sea shanty music
I was digging around last night for a CD I bought recently in order to ask if you'd heard it...fuck I can't remember who it's by!
231 -- I think you also overestimated how much information can be derived from 6 examples.
Imagine if I gave you 3 books I liked and 3 I didn't and asked for a technical classification of my literary tastes. You'd probably ask for more examples.
238 -- No, but I should!
[I just ordered a CD from Amazon Marketplace]
There's someone else I was thinking of who's name I can't remember but who is also considered a giant among shantymen and who is one of the last remaining shantymen who learned his trade by going to work on the sea at an early age.
I think the person I'm thinking of is still alive (or was 10 years ago).
237: hence the effort to add examples --- not considered exhaustive, just adding to the space.
I believe that I was thinking of Richard Maitland (see, some information about him) but I'm not sure.
I'm not a huge fan of shanties, so I don't own any and have only heard them from my friends but, particularly since I've been on a british isles kick lately, I'm looking forward to the Sam Larner.
I honestly tend more to singer/songwriters than genuinely traditional music, but that's partially because it's just easier to find and to get recommendations.
I also found a good summary of the different types of shanties.
CAPSTAN SHANTY Capstan shanties were used for long repetitive tasks, that simply need a sustained rhythm. Raising or lowering the anchor while winding up the heavy anchor chain was their prime use. This winding was done by pushing round and round at the capstan bars, which required a long and continuous effort. These are the most devloped of the work shanties. Capstan shanties had steady rhythms and usually told stories because of the length of time (which could be hours) it took to raise the anchor. Sailors would stamp on the deck on the words. This gave rise to the term, "stamp and go chanties."
HALYARD SHANTY Halyard (or Long Drag) shanties were sung to the raising and lowering of sails. Sails hung from wooden cross-pieces called yards. With the canvas and wood, sails could weigh between 1,000 and 2,500 pounds. To set sail a member of the crew would climb the rigging to loosen the canvas. On deck the crew would take hold of a line called the halyard (for haul + yard). The crew would rest during the verse and haul during the chorus. Depending on the weight of the sail, crews could pull one (for heavy jobs) to three (for lighter jobs) times per chorus.
SHORT DRAG SHANTY Short drag (or short haul) shanties were for tasks requiring quick pulls over a relatively short time, such as shortening or unfurling sails, and raising the masthead.
PUMPING SHANTY Sailors would pump handles up and down, making the barrel of the windlass rotate to bring the anchor chain up. Pumps were fitting in ships to empty the bilge (the lowest part of the ship) of water. Wooden ships leaked, but not so fast that the crew could not pump the water out. There were several different types of pumps, which accounts for the variation in the timing of pumping shanties.
CEREMONIAL SHANTY Ceremonial and forecastle (the crews quarters) songs were those sung by sailors on their time off in the evening, when the work was done. These generally are the ballads or told stories of famous men, battles, romance, of their longing for home or just plain funny songs. Singing was a favored method of relaxation aboard ship. Ceremonial shanties were for times of celebration, such as when the sailor paid off his debt to the ship or when they crossed the equator.
Don't discount the importance of skill over style. There are bands I like that play in the excact same style as bands I hate, it's just that the first band is more skilled at pulling off a good performance or writing a good tune. That's the most frustrating thing about Pandora - "sounds like" and "in the same style as" has nothing to do with being good. I suspect you are relating to the skill of the performer and the quality of the tune more than the technical musical aspects. I love Nick Drake and Tom Waits, but pretty much nobody else who sounds like them or works in their respective style. They just gots the goods.
214 made Guitar Wolf cry. 224 made me cry. How can you harsh on "I Wish I Was the Moon" or "Thrice All American"? Those are beautiful songs.
215: I'll have to agree with WP being not actually awesome, but pretty good and fun live. Not actually crap, either. L-S-F, on the other hand, has moments of awesome.
245: I suspect he hasn't listened extensively (but could be wrong). Her disks have some weak songs, but some beautiful ones too.
Ogged should listen to some holy fuck, if only on principle that the film-projector as an instrument is underexplored. Ok, maybe not ogged's thing.
When I asked about alt-country, I was thinking something like Old Crow Medicine Show.
too many years playing treble/melody instruments
Amen to this. One of the ways in which a song can most easily frustrate me is in having an indistinct vocal and one of the ways in which a song can most easily please me is in having a really bold, smooth, even voice that sounds like a good brass instrument or maybe an alto sax.
Ogged, this is as non-technical as it will ever get, but songs that are "behind the beat" sound as if someone is dragging them along by their shirtsleeves towards the end and the song itself doesn't really want to get there because it really likes where it's already at.
Another way to express it: songs that are ahead of the beat make one want to bounce around. Songs that are on the beat make one want to march. Songs that are behind the beat make one want to dance like a drunk.
A couple of thoughts and some guesses about what ogged doesn't like (I don't have a fix on what ogged likes, but I think I have some general ideas of what ogged doesn't like).
First thought is that I'm curious about ogged's comment that if he doesn't like a band that listening to more rarely changes his opinion. For myself I know there are a lot of CDs that I own on which I've listened to them 1-3 times to pick out the one or two songs that I like best and which I will pull out when I want to listen to that one song. In other words I find that for most bands that I listen to and think, "this is good, but not to my taste" there is usually at least one song that either is to my taste or so well captures what is good about that band that I am happy to own it and listen to it on occasion.
Second thought, most of the music that ogged likes that I think of as great music (roots blues, nick drake, etc . . .) is music that I want to like but find myself getting impatient with. I tend to like music that is light on its feet and changes direction rather than music that finds a groove and delivers it masterfully (but, still, make my funk the p-funk). So I get the impressions that ogged tends not to value surprises in music, and likes a sense of repetition.
So, I predict that ogged, in general, won't like
1) Generally up-tempt music. I think I asked ogged to listen to the English Beat at one point (Tears of a Clown) but I suspec that even setting aside the ahead/behind the beat question, that it's just generally faster tempo than ogged likes.
2) Nothing overly experimental or with notably odd voacals. There's nothing that ogged has said specifically about vocals but I just can't see him liking Tegan and Sarah, for example.
3) I get the sense that ogged is less likely to like music that features Electric guitar or percussion as the primary instruments (ignoring Journey for the moment).
So I think of mid-tempo, stripped down songs with acoustic guitar or something other than the holy trinity of rock -- guitar/bass/drums.
Thinking about that I'm slightly surprised again that ogged didn't like the Pogues version of "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda" since it avoids those traits.
Ogged -- how does that do, do you recognize those generalizations or am I off on this.
Shorter this thread:
ogged: Explain my musical tastes to me.
commenters: Okay! You like authenticity.
ogged: No, no, explain it in words I don't understand.
commenters: Uh, okay, you like music that's, um, behind the beat.
ogged: That's more like it! Now, what does that mean?
commenters: Well, there's this beat, see...
That list makes me curious, ogged, how you feel about the Violent Femmes. The live version of "Gimme the Car" that appears on Permanent Record is very very good, but I suspect that's not a mood that ogged is looking for in music. But why not? Why is that not a song ogged would like?
249: 2) I loooove Cocorosie! Has ogged tried Cocorosie?
Way back earlier I was gonna say something about hearing arguments that my deep blues acoustic delta dude was blacker and more authentically delta bluesier than your old toothless deep delta blues dude since about the time Dylan went electric, but thank goodness, I restrained myself. That would be wrong.
Ogged doesn't read my comments anyway.
Cocorosie are kind of despicable. Surely you all have heard of the time half of Cocorosie talked about going to minstrel shows because they were a safe space to gawp at Negro customs, far away from actual Negroes?
That might not have been the precise way she put it.
God bless your dedication, Nick. I think you're generally right, but I also really like this and this.
Tell me those are both behind the beat and we'll be all set.
253: Now Ben, I am sure she was being ironic and deliberately provocative.
Unless you think:"I'd wear your black eyes/Bake you apple pies" portrays an earnest romanticism.
That wasn't in a song, and there really were such parties, and she really was there. If she were being deliberately provocative and ironic, that's no excuse (arguably worse).
257:Maybe so. I don't know her. or anything much beyond their music.
But like 40 years after Tom Wolfe's essay on Radical Chic all the jokes on white folk trying to touch the authentic black experience have gotten so stale and had so little effect that multiple layers of provocative irony might be required.
Like the feminism of "I'll wear your black eye" sung in a romantic little-girlish voice.
I could imagine going to a party in blackface and a minstrel outfit.
God bless your dedication, Nick.
Thank you. I've said before, part of why I try so hard to stir up conversations about music is because I like music, but I don't know a lot of music theory, and I find that trying to write anything meaningful about music is difficult and takes practice. So I try to practice.
It's easier to talk about shared musical experiences -- when two people like the same music for approximately the same reasons and are just trying to highlight points of emphasis, but I think it's entertainingly difficult to try to explain musical tastes to someone that doesn't share them.
all the jokes on white folk trying to touch the authentic black experience have gotten so stale
Part of what I found interesting about stumbling into putting together a mix that was mostly british isles a couple months back was that when I sat and listened to it I was surprised at how notable it was to listen to a set of music that didn't draw upon or relate to the African American presence in American pop culture. It wasn't intentional, but it was interesting to notice.
255 -- when I can use a computer with speakers I'll listen to those.
Lilly Allen's presale password for great american music hall in SF on Feb.6 is:
lilymtv
https://www.virtuous.com/purchase/info/e/3701973452
now I suspect that there's something musically different between the music I like and the music I don't--and I also suspect that y'all might have the musical knowledge and vocabulary to tell me what it is.
I'm not a music expert, Ogged, but what knowledge I do have makes me think this quest is completely quixotic. I'll see if I can explain why I think that..
To start with, there are all sorts of little quirks and flourishes in music that are unique to the players. To pick a cliche, BB King's vibrato - but saying, "I like that" isn't very useful, because no one else has it, exactly. Or, to take another track, classical piano music - it's written down, note for note, measure for measure. Yet everyone pays it differently. And sometimes I like it better the way *I* play it than the way some renowned professional plays it. To go back to guitar music, usually a guy who plays deftly and cleanly sounds better, playing the exact same notes and exact same rhythmn, than a guy who's fumbling. But sometimes a player has a sloppy style that's interesting.
This "behind the beat" stuff - there may be something to it, but I'd be surprised if you found it that useful. For several reasons, such as what I layed out above, you're going to like some of it and not like some of it. And you're certainly going to like some music that is not behind the beat - Robert Johnson, for instance, a solo player who didn't utilize beats or measures.
Finally, I think songs work because of their overall effect, not because of technical components. The I IV V chord progression is really popular, but it has to be toyed around with to get the right feel that the player wants. For instance, I like substituting a 6th or Maj7 chord for the tonic (I) chord when I can, but not always, and not in all keys. (For instance, I don't like the D6 chord so much, but it could work for certain situations)
As far as I've discovered, the best way to describe music you like is the emotional feel you get from it. But then, the problem with looking for music to fit your moods is that music can lead you to a new mood you enjoy, and one that you weren't really enjoying before. I think what I'm saying is that there's no golden shortcut to finding new music, if that's what you're looking for.
Ogged thinks that taste is rule-governed and is trying to find the rules. We don't need to get into specifics about music to understand that it won't work.
Do you have a spiel on how taste is categorically not rule-governed? I'm inclined to think so. Still, if you have a spiel, spill.
You're inclined to think that it is rule-governed?
I'm not sure I have a spiel; it just seems so obvious. I would have expected ogged to think it as well.
There's a (flawed) defense of the claim in Nehamas' (flawed) new book.
no, sorry, I meant i'm inclined to think it's not; i'm in agreement with you.
Whether taste "is" or "isn't" rule-governed seems like an oddly polarized way of thinking about it, and "rule-governed" is misleading anyway: I'm looking for a pattern, and I can express the pattern in my language or I can ask other people to help me express it in a language I'm trying to learn. I think this is similar to when I was wondering why I had crushes on some women and a friend pointed out to me that they all had husky voices. It would have been absurd to then say, "let me introduce you to this other women, she has a husky voice too," but it was still an interesting thing to find out.
Wouldn't it be a sad world if taste in music really were rule-governed? If I knew that I only liked a song not because it sounded "good" but because, say, it featured a male tenor backed by three guitars plus drums playing 4/4 syncopated allegro behind-the-backbeat shuffle rhythms in a major key (I'll stop here having reached the limits of my knowledge of music jargon) -- well, I would probably stop listening to music and switch to spoken-word poetry albums.
Everything after teo's 250 including this comment should be deleted and this thread closed.
270. It's probably a safe assumption, though, that if there were a better way of describing musical tastes, people would be employing. Which is not to say that you can't work at improving exisiting ways describing music.
The only people, to my knowledge, who get off on describing the technical aspects of music they like are metal geeks. You don't want to be like them.
I think you need to throw away that copy of Hot Rocks and listen to Exile on Main Street.
This turns out to be true That's a fine album, right there. Who knew?
[flogging a dead thread]
Generally, I figure I know in about 20 seconds whether I'll like a band. I've never found that giving them more of a chance has helped.
Meet:
> I think you need to throw away that copy of Hot Rocks and listen to Exile on Main Street.
This turns out to be true That's a fine album, right there. Who knew?
This makes me think that, I've been biasing my recommendations towards more obscure stuff in the assumption that you've at least taken a listen through the generally acknowledged masterpieces of pop music. But in case you haven't here's what I would put together as a list of utterly uncontroversial pop recommendations:
(leaving out people I know you're familiar with like Townes Van Zandt, Dylan or Joni Mitchell, and I'm stopping with the 80s because I figure you've gotten enough recommendations for contemporary music)
Sam Cooke -- Live at Harlem Square Club 1963
Leonard Cohen -- needs no introduction.
Velvet Undergound -- Velvet Underground & Nico and Loaded
Cream -- Disraeli Gears. They're young, obviously having a great time, and discovering just how good they are. Say what you like about Clapton, it's a talented line-up and Ginger Baker is a star on Drums. I don't listen to this much, but I went through a stretch where I was listening to this album a lot at work. It seemed well suited to being work music.
The Band -- I don't know if they have any albums I would recommend in their entirety. I like the songs on Rock of Ages but the sound quality is poor. Certainly listen to "The Weight", "Get Up Jake" and "King Harvest" and, if you like them, listen to Rock of Ages
Kris Kristofferson -- Kris Kristofferson. A country image of the 70s singer/songwriter.
Patti Smith -- Easter. "Gloria" may be my favorite patti smith song, but I think Easter works as a complete album.
The Clash -- The Clash -- I really doubt you'll like them but they belong on the list. I remember a quote by one of the Clash that was, essentially, "we figured out that people would rather dance than fight" and I think that's the attitude of their music.
Big Star -- Sister Lovers. One of the most sarcastic, bitter, uneven, and charismatic pop albums ever.
Curtis Mayfield -- Curtis/Live!. One of my favorite concert albums period.
David Bowie -- Ziggy Stardust. My affection for this doesn't need to be restated.
The Who -- Live at Leeds. Like them or hate them, at this point they're a very experience band and they rock as hard as anybody. I own this album, I like, I almost never listen to it just because I'm rarely in the mood to listen to music at the volume this demands.
[Parliament and Bootsy Collins to taste]
[I've just started listening to Guy Clark and don't have a specific recommendation, but would recommend him in general]
Elvis Costello -- My Aim Is True. I can't always decide whether I like Elvis Costello (and ogged has said he doesn't) but his debut album is the one I most consistently enjoy.
Laurie Anderson -- Big Science (this may start a fight with Armsmasher, but I quote LB, "I am resisting the urge to just start typing big hunks of her 'lyrics' -- they're weird but compelling."
The Replacements -- Tim
Prince -- Sign 'O The Times is my favorite album, but it's uneven. Start with "I Feel For You", "IF I Were Your Girlfriend" and maybe "Erotic City"
Sinead O'Connor -- Lion and the Cobra. Sinead O'Connor is a great singer and a lousy songwriter, I think this has her best material.
There's a start, I may add to this as I have time (or I may give up on the whole idea).
I can't for a minute imagine ogged liking any funk whatsoever.
I don't imagine that he'll like half of the music on that list, but I think it's all worth listening to at least once. If, for no other reason, than to have some sense of context for other music in the the genere.
That said, I think ogged's reaction to Bootsy Collins was, "I understand that this would be considered good, but it doesn't do anything for me."
The Clash over London Calling? I'm proud of my Sham 69 over the MC5 or the Jam guess - Ogged likes his guitar music a little dirty sounding, but not more tightly controlled than the MC5. Surely this is the key to his happiness.
Point Conceded. For some reason I'm not personally as fond of London Calling as I think I should be. But it almost certainly is the best place to start for The Clash. OTOH, "I Fought the Law" is also a good place to start.
Who doesn't like The Clash?
Ah, now I'm glad I started the list. I would have guessed that you wouldn't like The Clash. I wouldn't have thought of "White Riot" as fitting your musical preferences.
I don't like the Clash. Their only justification is the claim to some sort of authenticity, and covering a Crickets song doesn't always give you that. Besides, Bernie Rhodes.
Oi bza : "Thus: Buddy Holly has a lot of dance/pop, but little blues"
His guitar playing is primarily influenced by Lightnin' Hopkins. His first recording, age 13, is a blues. OK "True Love Ways" isn't particularly drenched in the tradition, but still..
I don't like the Clash. Their only justification is the claim to some sort of authenticity
I don't think this is their only justification. I think of them as very good, high-energy dance pop with an edge, and take their politics as part of their identity as a band, but not as a defining part of their appeal.
Really, who else sounds like them?
Some other recommendations.
Steely Dan -- The Royal Scam. I'm a fan and, while opinions vary, the case for Steely Dan is made by Alameida. I like this album or their debut, Can't Buy A Thrill, best.
The Pretenders -- Learning to Crawl. Their debut is one of the great debut albums ever, but I like Learning To Crawl better. There's a wider variety of moods and the songwriting is more subtle. I left this off the original list partially because I feared mockery, but I will defend the greatness of the Pretenders. "Watching the Clothes Go Round", "Thumbelina", "My City Was Gone", "Thin Line Between Love and Hate" are all great performances. (Random Note: Grace Jones cover of "Private Life" is surprising, and superb)
The Pixies -- Doolittle. Some of the best production and sharpest performances of any "indie" rock album period. Just listen to the sound of the album, it's perfect.