I prefer realist or experienced.
The tanning beds give it away.
Which woman? There were two in your post; I'm presuming it's the second woman, "long time gone" not "after cellulite."
the woman who hadn't had sex in two years; she was the one about whom will said "her husband has had sex more recently." (I paraphrase.)
I trained to be, and practised for a while as a divorce lawyer in part. Heartbreaking stories, although usually by the time I heard them the parties had at least faced up to it, so I never had to see the discovery or realization.
Of course, she is the one who has to decide how she wants to live her life. For some people, the rest of the lifestyle more than offsets circumstances that other people would find unacceptable.
the rest of the lifestyle
The cuckold lifestyle, you mean? (Can women be cuckolded or only men?)
No. I meant the house, cars, friends, neighborhood, being able to afford to work the job she works or the hobbies she has...or anything else.
Some people simply do not care if their spouse is having sex with other people, as long as it isn't thrown in their faces.
Don't you know couples and ask "how does he/she not know!??!?!??"?
Ooops. Left out important stuff. The kids going to a certain school or having a two parent household. Some people are willing to suppress their feelings about a spouse cheating because those issues are more important to them than being cheated on.
Man, I don't know how people do divorce work -- the combination of frustrating and heartbreaking has got to wear you down so badly. (This is particularly annoying for me, because the pro bono work my firm supports is all low-income divorce and child custody matters. Every other pro bono project I've come up with has been nixed for political reasons. And I just really don't want to do divorces -- I know someone has to, and it's a worthy project, but I don't want it to be me.)
As I've shown, without the sexual part, relationships go much more smoothly. Their mistake was starting having sex in the first place. A loveless, sexless marriage is a stable marriage. There are no surprises.
Marriage is the thickest of thick concepts and really needs some conceptual clarification. Just analyze it down to its fifty or so most common functions, and then go systematically through them one by one to decide which of these functions a particular marriage will fulfill. Ultimately perhaps each partner's "marriage" can be broken down to five or six component sub-marriage units with five or six different partners each.
A loveless, sexless marriage is a stable marriage not a marriage.
Oh yeah? Have you been working on a list of the fifty functions?
Ultimately perhaps each partner's "marriage" can be broken down to five or six component sub-marriage units with five or six different partners each
I'd oppose this by referencing Jan Smuts' theory of wholes.
Essentialism!
Is it too much to ask that my wife should satisfy my demiurges?
For example, "showing up with you at weddings or funerals". Why should the person you attend funerals be the same person who cooks dinner, or the same person you have sex with, or the same person who you share the mortgage with, or your co-parent. Perhaps it would just be easier to go to a funeral-escort place and hire someone.
As someone getting married in less than two months, #10 makes my head hurt.
Being two months away from a big wedding will make your head hurt even in the absence of Emerson's curmudgeonly counsel.
"Being two months away from a big wedding will make your head hurt even in the absence of Emerson's curmudgeonly counsel."
On either direction.
1: Absolutely. Going to a tanning bed is the single gayest act a man can commit - gayer even than actually having sex with other men.
We always joked that the heirarchy was
1. Having anal sex with other men
2. Rollerblading
3. Having oral sex with other men
But regional variation may account for you ranking tanning beds higher.
I miss rollerblading. I went on a date with a rabbi who rollerblades. If it works out, maybe I'll start again. A chick rabbi, mind you.
a chick rabbi
Heaven forfend you would be dating a dude rabbi.
"Not that there's anything wrong with that", of course; I just wanted to bring up the structural tension between rollerblading qua 21.2 and heterosexual courtship. I figured it was also worth mentioning because of the old "I can't operate on this child--he's my son" riddle.
Alameida, one question for you, several for your friend:
--is your friend comfortable with this arrangement? does she want a divorce? does she miss sex? who knows who knows what? --as in, does the husband think he's getting with something and the wife just thinks he's a silly cocksman?
--meta to that: did you just call her up and say, "hey, I mentioned your plight on my blog and everybody wants to know if your husband is fucking around on you"? If not, how did you phrase the follow-up questions?
Threadjack comment bleg! I'm looking to speak to someone from some sort of auditing firm, an Arthur Anderson type, who is willing to speak out of her ass on subjects she knows little about. Or someone who has that kind of experience or background. I have questions to pose about how things work, then hypothetical questions to pose about how things should work wrt example x.
How did journalists ever find sources who weren't already their friends before the Internet?
They made a lot of friends. A good journalist had a killer Rolodex.
I'm starting to get very frightened by how congenial I find Emerson's worldview. Especially as I just got into an exclusive relationship.
Oh come on, does no one have a reasonable doubt? Could be that he just likes the excitement of running around acting like he's single (i.e, showing up tanned in bars without a wedding ring), but never actually followed through with anything. Could be that after two years' hiatus, the guy wouldn't know how to initiate an affair even if he wanted to.
(And yes, that very naivete is precisely why I am not a divorce lawyer...)
Could be that he just likes the excitement of running around acting like he's single (i.e, showing up tanned in bars without a wedding ring), but never actually followed through with anything. Could be that after two years' hiatus, the guy wouldn't know how to initiate an affair even if he wanted to.
How is this better?
24 to 20, of course.
Hmm, do couples go to tanning beds together?
do couples go to tanning beds together?
With regards to melanin, no; with regards to hides, yes.
My aunt and uncle had their skins flayed and stretched into a lovely wall-hanging for my Bar Mitzvah present.
10, 16: I think it is actually more convenient and simpler to have one relationship that plays all those different functions than to have five or six relationships, let alone fifty. For starters, a lot of functions require more or less continuous interaction, for instance you co-parent and your romantic partner. Both of these require a lot of interaction, especially at night. You want to snuggle with your romantic partner at night, but you also have to be ready for children who wake up in the middle of the night with bad dreams, babies who want to nurse, etc.
I know some people separate these functions, but it just makes everything so messy. Monogamy is like one-stop shopping for all your relationship needs.
31: Better in that it might signal some remaining committment to the wife (though I probably should've said "would never actually initiate" rather than "wouldn't know how to initiate"). If he has no intention of actually cheating, his behavior would seem reflective of a need for reassurance about his desirablity. Knowing this and that he's still truly committed would leave open more possibility (in my mind) of the couple being able to work through things than if he was just getting laid willy nilly because he could. (If that makes no sense, let me know and I'll try again... )
Also, he may use tanning beds to combat SAD and not wear the ring because of weight loss/gain, allergy, occupational hazard... And one can visit a bar without trying to pick anyone up.
Now, if he's out trying to start something and just can't, it is still better in a schadenfreude sense. That is, if I were married and my spouse were out trying to sow his wild oats, it would make me feel much, MUCH better if he totally bombed....
Monogamy is like one-stop shopping for all your relationship needs.
Rob's pet name is Wal-Marty-poo.
35: Sure, in some imaginary universe. But you end up with someone who does some of the things well, and others not so well, and doesn't even want to do some of them at all.
You're just not analytic, visionary and forward-looking, Rob. You're stuck in the old paradigm and will be "left behind" by the imminently-approaching singularity.
35, 16, 10; dept. of split-the-baby: It seems that Emerson's taxonomy of spheres is useful for understanding that the marriage has different functions, that convenience dictates burdening the same person with them, and that some expected functions may be subcontracted out without threat. I have several friends who found that the mate who makes them happy is not the person they get their greatest intellectual charge from; this came to them as a surprise. If I ever wanted to go out dancing, it was surely without my ex in tow, and this was fine. For some, it's sex, rare but not impossible.
Feminism has resulted in more companionate relationships between professional and emotional peers; this has probably placed more of Emerson's intimate responsibilities on single relationships. The benefit is probably stronger bonds between partners, but also relationships that have to take on more of the burdens of each partner's happiness.
Based on the previous thread, "stronger bonds between partners" sometimes needs to be interpreted in the sense "going without sex for years at a time".
Looks like a Kipnis thread is in order.
You can't analyze the cinematography in a movie that they were emotional about.... You can't say the wrong thing, even in situations where there's no right thing to say. You can't use the 'wrong tone of voice,' and you can't deny the wrong-tone-of-voice accusation when it's made. You can't repeat yourself, you can't be overly dramatic.... You can't begin a sentence 'You always.' You can't begin a sentence 'I never.' You can't be simplistic, even when things are simple. You're not permitted to employ the Socratic method in an argument."
9: So true LB. My best friend from LS does divorce, and my oh my, the stories. I find it much easier to live with myself knowing that everything I'm doing basically boils down to money...
I didn't say you will wind up with someone who does all these functions perfectly, just well enough that it isn't worthwhile to shop around for alternatives.
One of the more interesting things that Bitch said about her polyamory is that she didn't think that romance should be simple or pain free. (IIRC) I think that you really should have that value set if you are going to pursue polyamory.
Also, note John that you have gone from advocating no relationships, to advocating far more relationships than I really want to handle.
I'm just trying to help people, Rob.
I think I'll ask Laura Kipnis to marry me. We do seem to have a lot of common ground.
"One of the more interesting things that Bitch said about her polyamory is that she didn't think that romance should be simple or pain free. (IIRC) I think that you really should have that value set if you are going to pursue polyamory. "
Rob Helpy-chalk: "Only S&Mers should get married.
Rob Helpy-chalk: "Only S&Mers should get married.
Why bother with redundancy if you don't need reliability?
My aunt and uncle had their skins flayed and stretched into a lovely wall-hanging
It's the front side of Heebie-Geebie, isn't it?
I looked up that Kaplan excerpt on Amazon; immediately preceding it is the problematic line You can't not be supportive, even when the mate does something insupportable.
Freely admitting that I haven't read the preceding 89 pages of polemic: I don't call that love, I call that codependency (another condition which is not love.) I don't think I could love a partner who wouldn't tolerate me not supporting the insupportable.
Co-dependancy = actually-existing love.
Emerson's trying to get to Knipis's right on the Love Issue.
51: I would think it would be the Left ...
Yes, maybe she'll marry me then. I have to show her that I'm exactly like her except much better, because let's face it, domination is what really turns women on.
"I think that you really should have that value set if you are going to pursue polyamory any relationship with a human."
I looked up that Kaplan excerpt on Amazon
Kaplan = Kipnis? Yeah, I've always wondered why a "good" marriage should be lots of work. If it's not mostly fun there's something wrong. Granted, certain events (illness, April 15th, salmonella, etc.) might not be fun but the basic going through life together should be or there's little point in doing so.
Doesn't anyone else here read Vollmann novels? Tanning salons are de facto brothels in much of the US, where woman (mostly Asian, sometimes Eastern European/Russian) with little knowledge of English give "table showers" and more for $80 a pop.
Hey, April 15th is my anniversary, it better be fun.
Tanning salons are de facto brothels in much of the US, where woman (mostly Asian, sometimes Eastern European/Russian) with little knowledge of English give "table showers" and more for $80 a pop.
My sister, when she worked at a tanning salon, had a guy come in thinking he was in such a place. She didn't quite catch on to his meaning at first, but apparently he was excited to be thinking he was going to get serviced by a good looking young white girl.
I never heard that about tanning salons. Why would they be de facto brothels when "massage parolors" are already de facto brothels, and tanning salons have an actual clientele of women who would be displeased by the prostitution going on in the next room?
I hope she didn't traumatize him with rejection.
I think the de facto brothel businesses change depending on the area. I have been told that in Korean immigrant neighborhoods, barber shops are the de facto brothels.
I guess you just can't have too many kinds of de facto brothel. (Hell, pizza parlours have been used as brothel fronts.) And the problem with female clientele probably isn't that much greater -- women also do get massages, after all.
I guess you just can't have too many kinds of de facto brothel.
Add "legislative bodies."
Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream.
I'm told in China "Karaoke Bar" often means brothel.
59: Massage parlors are illegal in much of the US, but tanning salons aren't. (Although one of my students wrote an article on the attempt to shut down tanning salons in Orange County because of the popularity of "tanning competitions" in the Asian community. The whole thing was weird, I tell you, weird. "And this year's winner for Best Tennis Outfit is...")
That said, there's a difference between having a pizza parlor as a front and a massage parlor/tanning salon. Two require relative nudity; in the other, you get a massage.
58 - That's sick. She looks like she's about eight years old.
Gswift, is that the Columbia River?
Gswift, is that the Columbia River
Bear Lake, in Northern Utah. If you're in Logan where Utah State U. is at, and drive up Logan Canyon you'll come out at Bear Lake. Right on the Idaho border. Upper end of the Logan river there is great fly fishing.
Doesn't anyone else here read Vollmann novels?
No.
68 - the little one standing up? I thought that was a boy.
I read "The Rainbow Stories" and rather liked it. I remember he described a slutty friend by saying that his "promiscuity is a failure to understand the basic sameness of vaginas, of women, of oneself". (OK, I just remembered the "sameness of vaginas" bit and looked up the rest of the bit on Amazon.)
the basic sameness of vaginas, of women
Doesn't get out much, I take it.
the basic sameness of vaginas,
I mean, sure, there's a strong family resemblance. But in general?
The speaker is not talking about what differences exist, merely what differences interest him. In other words, he is announcing that he is an asshole.
Will, thanks for 8: I was about to jump your shit for the implicit pejorativeness of dismissing stability as a "lifestyle" preference.
35: Rob, dear, bollocks. People have friends with whom they do different things: x group of friends likes to go out drinking, y group of friends likes witty internet conversation, z group is always reliable when you need a favor or a shoulder to whine on. Sometimes--often--those things intersect in the same person, but it would be kind of silly to insist that you should evaluate people you care for according to whether they fulfill *all* your emotional needs.
Kipnis's book is absolutely fabulous, by the way. It's a really interesting Marxist analysis of the work that stable companionate marriage gets roped into doing by way of shaping people's desires and willingness to accept the status quo. Highly recommended.
55: Honestly? Raising kids is work; living with the same person day in and day out is work; negotiating the balance between different individuals' personal goals and the good of the collective unit is work. Yes, a good marriage also makes people happy and is enjoyable most of the time; but it's not as if enjoying one's job doesn't mean it isn't work.
Re. original post, yep. My question is, isn't the being away 90% of the time a bigger problem than the fact that he's having sex while he's gone? And why the hell isn't she?
"My question is, isn't the being away 90% of the time a bigger problem than the fact that he's having sex while he's gone?"
But that is a judgment call on your part. For some the sex is worse.
79: I think she would hope that he had a lack of sex with other people.
It would indeed be convenient and helpful to have one partner that fills most of one's needs, but for very introverted people, it tends to be even more important. I think 77 neglects the plight of introverts.
Bitch, dear, see my first answer to Emerson in 43.
No doubt this is more of a preference issue than an ethical one. I was really just trying to explain why many people find monogamy appealing, outside of the social conditioning.
78: If he's gone 90% of the time, she's not having sex regardless.
Also, those people are just idiots.
77: 55: I don't define doing things I like to do as "work".
Work is something one does out of necessity, wants a vacation from, and wants to retire from. To me, that's different from putting in some effort at something, which can be quite enjoyable.
Anyway, I just don't remember raising the kids as being all that difficult or tiring. I'll have to check with them and the Ex, maybe I'm developing rose-colored neurons. I haven't forgotten the moments of pure terror but those were quite infrequent.
Anyway, I just don't remember raising the kids as being all that difficult or tiring.
!!??
Likewise. I love them, they're a joy, but you've clearly forgotten the difficult and tiring bits.
I don't define doing things I like to do as "work".
So anyone who enjoys their job shouldn't get paid? Or get a vacation? That's insane.
I suspect 86 has it right. And LizardBreath has not had to deal with the teenage years yet.
Sally's only seven, but we've already hit 'dripping with sarcasm' and 'somehow, when she sits on the couch, there are arms and legs splayed everywhere to the point where there's no room for anything else'. How much more teenagerness is there?
To me it feels like it's not marriage that is hard work. Individual things in a marriage take work, but it still feel strange and wrong to me to say that marriage itself is work.
Being a decent person is hard work, dealing with trials and tribulations is hard work, and dealing with trials and tribulations while also being a decent person is really hard work. For me, marriage itself is the easy part, the part where you get to have this incredible amount of societal and legal support for cohabiting with your favorite person, and having a favorite person to rely on and keep you company while you deal with all the hard work that would be there for you regardless.
No doubt I'm an incurable romantic.
I think this is the sort of vocabulary disagreement that isn't going to illuminate anything and may lead to bad feeling. Can we agree that marriage and raising children both require hard work, and leave to one side whether they are hard work?
And all that stuff about how marriage makes so many things on all kinds of levels easier is of course a major reason why it's so horrid to restrict it to heterosexual couples.
Yes, certainly The Gays should have to suffer too. They've been getting off easy for far too long. (Same for that fun military service, getting blown up and so on.)
91: I didn't mean it as a mere vocabulary disagreement -- I do think the particular distinction I was drawing is a real one (and that it isn't a distinction between is and requires), with political and personal consequences, and it's something I've been thinking about for a while. But I don't mind moving on, because hey, comity.
The thing is, I've been in conversations like that before (about childrearing rather than marriage, but same difference) and there's a tendency for "If you really loved your children/spouse, the idea of describing the relationship as 'work' would never occur to you" to hang in the air as an implication. So long as it's clear that no one means to say that unless they explicitly endorse it (at which point the fur can start flying), there's nothing wrong with having the discussion.
Fuck it: I explicitly endorse whatever it is that starts fur flying. You, LB, are a bad human being.
But everyone knew that already. Details of what, precisely, other than online irasciblity make me a bad person are not happening barring an outbreak of complete Presidentiality, but surely the online bad behavior is sufficient.
What I find fascinating is how important these things are to us. That someone else infers that we're a bad parent means a great deal to us, even though that inference by that person rarely impacts on our career or home life. There are any number of other examples, of course, and I am by no means excepting myself--I do this all of the time.
Yeah, my whole preoccupation is with the question of what part is appropriately attributed to marriage itself, as opposed to other, more general aspects of dealing with circumstances, relationships, responsibility, and other humans. It's also coming from a context of trying to explain why I think there's something weird/problematic with the scenario where the Older and Wiser Person comes up to you at your wedding, or upon hearing of your engagement and says, "You know, marriage is hard work," and then I think, "I think maybe you mean hell is other people."
And the thought that one might even suggest that raising children isn't hard work frankly blows my mind.
It really isn't that hard. My wife pretty much does everything.
What blows my mind is the seemingly prevailing sentiment that child rearing is somehow necessary for full personhood. If I'm not interested in having children, it means I'm too selfish and immature. I actually had a therapist tell me this, as well as various family members.
Ah, but then you can tell them to bite you. God alone knows where that weirdness comes from -- it's all over the place, and it's incredibly stupid.
aw, I'm sure you'll come around, when you mature and become less selfish.
I don't see why it should blow anybody's mind that people tend to set a lot of store by child rearing, given that reproduction and child rearing are pretty important to human societies. (I'm not eager to get into the child-rearing thing myself, but I can certainly see where the attitude comes from.)
given that reproduction and child rearing are pretty important to human societies
So's waste disposal.
With operant conditioning and behavior mod in a secure therapy center, Pdf23ds's selfishness can be painlessly extinguished, though the erroneous belief that pain is being felt by him/her may temorarily occupy his/her mind.
104: One of those really helpful bits of advice that's true often enough to reinforce people's tendency to give it, but that would probably be true more often if given less often.
BitchPhd:
Idiots? Your comments confuse me. You keep appear to be coming back to the position that people who get upset about their spouse having sex with other people are wrong. But, then, you don't want to be judged for placing stability above sexual fidelity. Am I reading you incorrectly?
108: The thing is that it isn't advice, it's a prediction. And it does come true sometimes when you'd think it wouldn't (a friend of mine had a planned baby last summer after having been committed all her adult life to childlessness), but that doesn't make making the prediction anything but obnoxious.
110: Oh, I agree absolutely, and you're right that it's phrased as a prediction in 104. All I'm saying is that I would be amazed if there aren't people out there who refuse to change their minds about having kids simply because they've spent several years brushing off that sort of BS and aren't willing to tolerate the I-told-you-so's, even if, in the heart of hearts, they might like to have some kids after all.
Deciding not to have kids is fine. Getting bullied into taking a firm position on the issue when you don't need to isn't.
102 tends to go hand-in-hand with the notion that all men are afraid of commitment and responsibility, and that if a man who says he doesn't want kids only had a woman who was willing to pressure him into knocking her up, his immaturity and selfishness would just melt in the face of the resulting widdle baby.
While I can certainly understand the sentiment as applied to one's children saying "Eww, girls! I'll never get married!", given the probability of the other outcome, I wonder what the statistics are for child rearing. How many 20 year olds who say they'll never have children end up having them?
Not to be obnoxious, but I bet a whole lot. Most people end up having children, and of the ones I know who don't, it seems most often to be happenstance/life course rather than a decision arrived at ahead of time. But I'm guessing.
All I'm saying is that I would be amazed if there aren't people out there who refuse to change their minds about having kids simply because they've spent several years brushing off that sort of BS and aren't willing to tolerate the I-told-you-so's, even if, in the heart of hearts, they might like to have some kids after all.
I've spent at least a decade at the brush-off, and while my actual position on the subject has softened, the brush-off hasn't changed. This is largely because if I let the slightest hint that I might consider having a baby out in front of my parents, they'd be on me like a frickin' remora.
115: I know a couple in a somewhat similar situation. The sad thing is that she's (quietly) changed her mind but he hasn't.
That's the worst thing to be out of step on -- I mentioned a couple I knew who'd married planning to have kids, and the wife changed her mind -- there's just no way around it. It's such a huge decision either way that it's really hard to be flexible about it to humor your partner, but in the absence of that flexibility there goes the marriage.
The hell of it is that he'd be a great dad and apparently resists largely out of fear that he wouldn't, or that the kid would turn out to be a monster regardless of what they did. But not my life and not my call. (When asked for arguments that might be persuasive, I was at least mostly joking when I suggested "oops!").
Those who get the brush-off are people who are overinvested in the idea of my having a kid and/or people who don't know me well enough that I'm willing to discuss it with them. (Sadly, there's significant overlap between the two.)
Now, if a couple is giving the brush-off to each other, then that's a whole separate problem.
I mentioned a couple I knew who'd married planning to have kids, and the wife changed her mind
On the plus side, this is potentially grounds for annulment (in the Catholic church, at least, if not in civil family law), so you basically get a do-over.
119: No brush off, just fundamental disagreement, and they're surviving fine.
120: It's really kind of awful. They love each other a great deal, or did, but he wants children very badly. I don't think they're going to stay married and they seem terribly unhappy.
Does anyone know of cases where the husband really wants kids, but the wife isn't so sure or doesn't want them at all?
Okay my 123 is dumb.
I wonder about this a lot. I'm not sure whether I want to have kids. Right now I'm inclined to think not, but that could all change with the right person and a whole bunch of other things. I don't really feel safe having kids. I think I'd be perfectly happy not having them, but most of the men I'm inclined to love do seem to want them. It's complicated.
124 came out before I was able to type out 125.
so you basically get a do-over
On marriage, sure -- but if you're a career woman you will never, ever get those precious years of fertility back, you egg-rot-infested old whore.
122: Didn't mean to be facetious, LB. It sounds like a painful situation.
I went into marriage clueless and noncommital about having children, but also knowing that my wife wanted more than just about anything to be a mother. Four years into fatherhood, I'm thoroughly won over.
I'm not sure whether I want to have kids. Right now I'm inclined to think not, but that could all change with the right person and a whole bunch of other things....It's complicated.
It is indeed very complicated. I watched one friend go from clear, decisive, absolute disinterest in childbearing (to the point that she considered a tubal ligation) at age 27 to passionate, focused, yearning eagerness to have children at age 40.
And another friend who desperately wanted children but whose husband delayed for years and then finally said No. And she's quite clear that she's staying with him, though has been grieving for two years now.
And then there's the 28-year-old man I know, whose wife just laughs and shakes her head when he holds his baby daughter and says, "Why didn't we have kids much earlier?"
Shorter version: Some people are ready to have kids when they meet the right mate; some are ready when they reach the right life stage; and for some it will never be right.
My gf never wanted kids. But since we got together (three years ago), she has found that she loves having my kids in her life. But she still doesnt want to birth any of her own.
I think there is tremendous pressure on women to "want to have kids." If they do not, they are viewed as weird.
Pediatricians--do they generally want kids of their own or are any of them inclined to be happy taking care of other people's kids?
How many 20 year olds who say they'll never have children end up having them?
(Raises hand)
I think there is tremendous pressure on women to "want to have kids." If they do not, they are viewed as weird.
I myself have trouble not viewing my fiancee's lack of interest in kids as weird and something that she's likely to change her mind about, even though she feels the exact same way that I do. This is known as a "culturally instilled prejudice".
I am totally crazy about a woman who, sadly doesn't want kids and would probably not even want marriage. Fortunately, she doesn't even like me all that much, so it's not a crushing dilemma.
I also made a large wager with a friend in college that he would have kids by the time he was 40. A few years ago, he got a vasectomy. But I will not give up.
I also met a guy once whose father-in-law performed his vasectomy reversal operation.
I am totally crazy about a woman who, sadly doesn't want kids and would probably not even want marriage. Fortunately, she doesn't even like me all that much, so it's not a crushing dilemma.
I recommend impregnating her out of spite. How dare she not reciprocate your love?
134: It's always going to be "weird" as in off-center on the bell-curve, it's a self-limiting population.
138: The point, though, (to be blindingly obvious) is that there's an imbalance between how the same attitude is viewed when held by women and men. So even besides the bell-curve part of the weirdness, there's the woman-specific stigma.
I am posting Becks-style.
How many 20 year olds who say they'll never have children end up having them?
Me too. I was still saying it at 25, even.
139: It must be a generational thing. Any male not wanting kids to the point of actually not having them (after perhaps sowing some oats, wild or mild) was definitely weird. One could be a workaholic and never see them but you had to have them.
I honestly don't understand anyone who wants kids. I was (and remain) one of those people who are like, yeah, kids are nice, but I dunno. . . .
So I think that the idea that people should want them before they have them is a bit much. Like a lot of other important things, it just isn't a completely rational decision: it makes no sense at all to want them, as much work as they are, but once they show up you *do* love them more than anything else and you're glad they're there.
Which doesn't mean that it's okay to condescend to people who say they actively *don't* want them. Pdf needs another therapist.
109: In all honesty, I really don't get why people think infidelity is The Worst Marital Sin. I understand that they do, but I do think that an awful lot of that is just unthinking silliness. And yes, I realize that this contradicts what I said about important things not being completely rational, and that being okay. Nonetheless I firmly believe that a lot of what people object to about cheating comes from something else, like insecurity or jealousy or neglect or whatever.
All that said, all I meant by "idiots" is that if someone's partner is gone 90% of the time, I think that's clearly the biggest issue in the marriage. It's one a lot of people deal with, and more power to 'em, but even so.
I understand that they do, but I do think that an awful lot of that is just unthinking silliness.
It's unthinking silliness, to some extent, all the way down. People care what they care about, and they bring it into the marriage. They aren't going to be able to change on the fly, due to rational argument, or, in most case, anymore than just a little bit. So if people care a lot about infidelity, they do, and that's just the way it is.
Of course. But because marriage *is* so important, I wish people would think through this stuff, is all.
How many 20 year olds who say they'll never have children end up having them?
Many of them, I'd say. Lifecourse effects are extremely powerful, and systematically underestimated by the young.
as to how I learned all this: she volunteered that my incredulous look had made her reassess how badly things were going, and then told me the facts about her husband.
my guess is that the percentage of young women who announce at 20 that they don't want kids but then go on to have them is lower than the percentage of young men who do the same. simple reason: sexism. Any 20yr old woman who openly expresses a contrary desire is going to take a lot of heat. I certainly did--that was a proclamation I started making at 15, before I even 'came out'. Now just about past the point where child-bearing would even be possible (THANK G-D!) and never had a single moment's hesitation.
Jeez, B., you're as crazy as me. You're all over the map on this stuff.
I do think that an awful lot of that is just unthinking silliness.
It's as easy a position to rationalize as any other -- which, let's be honest, is mostly what "thinking through" means in that kind of context. ISTR the original infidelity thread was chock full of arguments about everything from implied personal contracts to unilateral alteration of consensus reality, all of them pretty well thought through.
Promising not to have sex with others has been a part of the marriage ritual, and a fundamental part of the institution of marriage, from time out of mind, in American culture and its antecedents. There's no similar tradition with respect to staying home from business trips.
Obviously, people are free to craft their own promises, or their own understandings of the promises they've made. It's hardly surprising, though, that for a great many people, the default position is the centuries-old one. Silly though it may seem.
I honestly don't understand anyone who wants kids.
Is it any harder to understand than people who want pets or a big garden?
Perhaps you should have just ended the sentence at "anyone". </tweak>
The wanting part is so funny to me. Of course, you shouldn't have kids if you don't want them, but having them just because you *wanted to* seemed sort of selfish to me. My mother desperately wanted kids, but she was for most of my childhood totally unfit as a mother. She really loved us a lot, and in the beginning some of the inappropriate ways in which she cared for us were charming, but mostly I think that it was wrong of her to have had us. When I was a child there were many times that I wished that I had never been born, and I would never want any child of mine to feel that way ever. That's why I'm inlined to think that I shouldn't have them.
But, if I meet someone who is perfectly sane who really wants kids and with whom I can raise kids in a safe and secure environment, then I'm open to the possibility.
How much more teenagerness is there?
The list of endless. I assume she has not yet taken to staying out all night without telling you where she is (something my now-31-year old did a couple of times when he was 15), or hot wiring and taking the family car (my step-brother, with me in tow), or running away from home and taking up with a much much older woman at 15 (me) or, with said woman, helping my step-brother run away because my parents were going to send him to military school (and the list goes on and on).
The sad thing is that she's (quietly) changed her mind but he hasn't
That's not particularly sad. It just means that she will (quietly) forget about contraception and (quietly) get pregnant.
Wrongshore, you went to college with George Clooney?
154 gets it exactly right. I can't tell stories except as a dead president, however.
Yes, my parents would have been thrilled if that was the extent of my teenageriness.
150 sums up my feelings about the sexual fidelity topic.
Further to 154.
The scary thing about being a parent is that your children--particularly teenagers--can make you crazy even if you are doing everything right. My father was an outstanding parent--everything I am not and wish I was. He was kind, patient, loving and always there for us. And yet I made his life miserable when I was a teenager (we made up later, and by the time he died, when I was in my early 40's, he knew how much all of his children loved and admired him, so I guess it turned out OK, but he went through some rough times).
156: Hah! Yes. Yes I did. If by college, you mean, "made love to in my dreams, where all my gay comes out."
It's hardly surprising, though, that for a great many people, the default position is the centuries-old one.
It's not surprising at all. But most of the reasons sexual fidelity's so important to marriage have changed or disappeared.
I honestly don't understand anyone who wants kids.
I really want kids. I'm sure it'll be a boatload more work than I can fathom, but still always felt this way.
163: Nah -- I jumped on whoever said that it wasn't work, but 'more... than you can fathom' is overstated. 'Different than you were expecting' maybe. And, of course, they're evil little disease vectors. I think I've got strep throat again -- I just dragged myself out of bed -- and I blame the children. I hardly ever got sick between 12 and 27, and I get sick all the goddamn time now. (The other explanation, of course, is that lawyers make me sick. This is also fairly persuasive.)
I think I've got strep throat again
That's awful. I hope you get some medicine, lots more rest and feel better soon.
I used to proclaim very loudly that I didn't want children. My sister used to swear up and down that she was going to raise petrie dishfuls of bacteria instead of children; she just had her second son (and yes, his middle name is "Darwin"--so cute!). At about 26 or 27, my body started emitting new hormonal signals, which I've gotten slightly more used to by now but can still be sudden and overpowering. Rationally, I know I'm not at all ready for kids, but, wow, my body wants them bad.
My main aversion to child rearing is the extreme amount of work, and thus lost opportunity, they represent. I want to have the freedom to pick up weird projects like retrofitting an electric engine to my car or writing a new blogging software package or chess engine or picking up competitive parcheesi.
Or moving to Hawaii for a couple years. Etc.
evil little disease vectors
Are they ever. Another argument for having them in your twenties, when you're more hale and healthy. I've been sick more in the past two years than the previous ten or fifteen combined.
retrofitting an electric engine to my car or writing a new blogging software package or chess engine or picking up competitive parcheesi
Ha. Just getting to the movies is an accomplishment.
I've been sick more in the past two years than the previous ten or fifteen combined.
Hang in there parents of young children. This problem recedes as they get older.
I always wanted kids - I like them. Had I been able to have them, I would probably have had at least three. Adoption expenses being what they were, I had to settle for one. [My sister, the Type A MBA who never wanted kids, ended up with three - the Today Sponge, a defective condom and "maybe another child will keep the marriage together". It didn't.]
I never really viewed raising the Offspring as "hard work" - yes, there were the usual infant maladies, but he was an easy baby with a laid-back personality. [And he liked malls. And shoes.] He never went through the Terrible Twos, was convinced at an early age that "being boring" was the worst sin, and that misbehaviour was boring. [He was also frighteningly logical when he did misbehave - as he explained, at age four, when he hacked off the bottoms of new fabric vertical blinds after I'd left him with a sitter when he had chicken pox: 'You hurt my feelings because I am sick and I wanted you, so I hurt your feelings and cut your curtains.'] Hell, I even didn't mind what I had to do to get him help with his reading disability at school. I've done pro bono child advocacy both before and after going to bat for the Kid; it's important to me as a cause. Except for his asthma - something I share with him - the occasional earache and the CP, he was an otherwise healthy child. I used to worry about giving things to him, as I used to pick up every respiratory illness out there.
I've been in relationships that were "work" - the one with the BF before the Biophysicist was lots of work. The one with the Offspring's father was lots of work. The one with the Biophysicist isn't. That may be simply because we mesh so well, it may be because we spent two years in an LDR, so we spent a lot of time talking and writing and baring our souls to each other. It may be because each of us had figured out what we did and didn't want before we got together. Or it may just be our mutual love of garlic.
Re: Infidelity - the problem, as I see it, is that the unfaithful partner violated a trust. That brings up "if I can't trust X on this, what else can't I trust?" I dunno about the rest of you, but trust is right up there at the top of Things Required for a Relationship, right after "must not be an axe murderer; blood is so hard to get out of the carpet". If, for unforeseeable reasons, I stopped wanting to swive the Biophysicist, and he told me he needed to sweep that broom elsewhere - well, it wouldn't be a breach of trust, because I'd know what he was doing, and there would be logical reasons to change that part of the relationship. Polyamory is fine when it's agreed upon; cheating on a promise of monogamy isn't - not because of the extramarital sex, but because of the lie.
167,168 -- Well, you do have to keep being a person, even when you're a parent. I don't see any of those things being any more difficult to reconcile with parenthood than with marriage.
162 -- I don't think I agree at all. But then, I'm not sure exactly what it is I'm not agreeing to. OK, the concept of 'ownership' has evolved, but only into something less one-sided. I'm not sure that a woman's interest in a man's fidelity has changed at all. What did you have in mind?
Oddly enough, I'm pro-kid. For more information read my book "Relationship-free Childraising". The last chapter, "Bonsai Your Kid" is of special interest. The problems with relationships come only when both members of the relationship are older than three.
Ha. Just getting to the movies is an accomplishment.
Yeah, not sure we're going to be able to do that today after all....
170: But you can still catch the occasional ACC tourney game on the teevee, yes?
TOE-Heels! TOE-Heels!
173: I dunno, it seems like childless marriage might take up half of your free time, unless you're really codependent, and then kids would take up the other half plus some sleep too. You could still do some of those things, but only if you're the motivated, non-lazy type. Unlike me.
177: Relationship-free childraising is the answer!
I find it much easier to list the fifty or so functions a child serves, and subcontract them out to friends and family. Soooooo embarrassing when you're breastfeeding, though!
178: Oh yeah, being a single parent means you have loads of free time.
HG, you're really ahead of your time. I admire that.
The breaking-things function, the shitting-on-things function, the crying-endlessly function -- while babies and toddlers do these things, having them skilfully and professionally done often is more satisfactory in the long run.
No, there are at least two parents. Just no relationship.
Don't forget the throwing-a-fit function when losing at Monopoly. While everyone is capable of that, it takes a six-year-old to do it properly, which apparently includes lite-brite messages reading "you suck" (funny) and kicking people in the throat (not funny).
150 et seq.: I hear what you're saying, but the arc of my own feeling has been moving for some time in the opposite direction. I was very one-and-only as a young man, I don't think priggishly so but it was what I'd have ascribed to if forced to define it. Now my sense of what's right has become much more situational.
There are still many reasons for sexual fidelity. Disease, pregnancy, commitment, loyality.
185: Absolutely. If committment and loyalty, to you, mean sexual fidelity (or include sexual fidelity), then go for it. Disease and pregnancy can usually be prevented, but sure, there's a certain risk if you're not monogamous. I'm just saying commitment and loyalty don't necessarily have to involve sexual monogamy, and the risks of disease and/or pregnancy are realistically pretty small these days, if you use birth control, condoms, and a little bit of the third degree.
and a little bit of the third degree.
But what if one only has a Masters?
162-185-186: This all seems to dodge the question of sexual jealousy. BPhD's example shows us that it's not universal, but it's pretty damn frequent and it's pretty damn deep.
As far as I can recall, I've never had any sexual jealousy. On the other hand, that disposition has never been put to the test. My younger brother is different, though.
But you can still catch the occasional ACC tourney game on the teevee, yes?
During tourney time, the little fucker can sit in his own filth screaming for all I care. I'll change you at halftime, little man. This weekend, however, I have the whole house to myself. Keegan's at his mother's house and Roberta and Noah are in Knoxville.
kicking people in the throat
Any parenting book will tell you that you should cut his hair the first time this happens. If it happens again, circumcise him.
It is true that I have never been kicked in the throat by a Jew. What relation that has to the "no haircut for boys until age three" custom, though, I don't know.
throwing-a-fit function when losing at Monopoly
Oh dear god, I was so relieved when Keegan moved out of the phase where losing at a board game was a serious trauma. And now he's advanced enough to play actually enjoyable games, which makes all the difference in the world. I can't tell you how disheartened I am to be approaching Candyland time with Noah.
Yeah, SOC and PR are great games, though I don't get to play them often enough and so am not particularly good at either. One of the great things about SOC is that it moves quickly and most games are over in about 20 or 30 minutes, so you can play several rounds in an evening, so luck evens out somewhat. Haven't played Power Grid, but have heard a little about it.
I love Puerto Rico, but I can't stand Settlers -- it's too random for my tastes. My two current favorite games are Caylus for 2 or 3 players and Tower of Babel for 4 or 5 players.
Caylus can be a long game, but Tower of Babel moves pretty quickly -- though not as quickly as Settlers.
191: PK's not a Jew, he's an athiest--much to my father's displeasure.
192: Can you tell me when that happens, please? Because the fit-throwing really pisses me off.
Also, condolences re. Candyland. A more tiresome and irritating game there isn't. What about "Uh-Oh, Cherry-O," which will teach him to count and is not quite as banal? Although there is the problem of losing all the goddamn little plastic cherries....
Uh-Oh, Cherry-O
Hi-Ho Cherry-O. The problem with either that or Candyland is that there isn't any way to throw the game to avoid the tantrum.
Can you tell me when that happens, please?
With Keegan, about eight. But that's a sample size of one, so don't weight it too heavily.
Hi-Ho, right. I have a friend who swears he stacks the Candyland deck. And you can always fudge the spins on Cherry-O so that you lose all your cherries, it's not really that hard.
Seriously, Apo, when do they get old enough to stand losing board games? I think PK's surprised me by being a good sport once or twice, but the status quo is pitch-fitting.
8, huh? Okay, two more years. Great.
I detest board games, so I just taught my kids stuff like Go Fish and Uno.
I have a friend who swears he stacks the Candyland deck
Oh man, the biggest meltdown K ever had was after I watched him try to stack the deck. But, he was just young enough to fuck it up. So he pulls out all the picture cards, and puts Queen Frostine on top, so that when he draws first, he'll move almost to the end. Of course, every card he pulls thereafter, being the rest of the picture cards, moves him steadily backwards. By the time he's been shunted back all the way to Plumpy, he fucking boiled over, doubtlessly egged on by his father's now uncontrollable laughter.
I actually hate playing games with kids, for the most part. Card games are frustrating because he really cannot get it into his head that he can't show me the damn cards.
201: Dude, you are not allowed to laugh at them. It is forbidden.
doubtlessly egged on by his father's now uncontrollable laughter.
So awesome.
I believe in not being beaten up by my child.
Actually, tonight the babysitter asked what she should do to punish him (b/c last time she came he was overtired and acted like a turd the whole time). I was honestly taken aback. "Uh, punish . . . ? Well, if he's driving me crazy I usually just tell him to go to his room because I don't want to deal with him, is that the kind of thing you mean?"
B, you realize you're raising the kind of person who would be too sensitive to hang out here?
On another topic entirely, does she sound cool or is "physically and mentally healthy" too wholesome/new agey? Maybe someone you couldn't laught at crazy people with?
O, do you remember when he called you up on the phone and told you you're an asshole? Too sensitive, my ass.
Ogged, she's white. You'd have to tell her all about your fascinating childhood and everything.
She sounds great; it's impossible to believe she hasn't been inundated with offers.
On another topic entirely, does she sound cool or is "physically and mentally healthy" too wholesome/new agey?
I'm always suspicious of people who proclaim their own mental health.
I couldn't do it this weekend anyway, as I think I'm coming down with yet another cold. Anyone more...mainstream...have an opinion?
called you up on the phone and told you you're an asshole
Right, nothing about that says overly sensitive. Anyhow, I had to toughen Keegan up before he started getting checked into the boards.
Do people use their real email addresses when they contact the insane people on Craigslist, or what?
Dear god, I'm so glad we moved away from Canada, because PK's lost interest in hockey.
By the way, blog love: blogger accepts marriage proposal from a reader.
"good looking" sounds more promising than "cute"
"fit" could go either way, but hopefully "physically and mentally healthy" means "STD free and not nuts"
What the hell, go for it. At least coffee and a movie is cheap.
I'd recommend using a CL-only email address. If you use your real one, not only would you give away your name, they could google chat you or something forever if they're nuts. You should probably create a dedicated account.
216: I wouldn't; I had a dedicated email account when I was internet dating.
Then again, I'm a girl. Most of the men I talked to used their real email and real names. Not all, though.
because PK's lost interest in hockey.
Jesus, that kid almost had a brush with manliness.
Not that I have any idea what I'm talking about in 220. It just seems pragmatic.
Oh for god's sake, people, he does taekwondo.
Also, you're being totally sexist.
so glad we moved away from Canada, because PK's lost interest in hockey.
Do you understand how far away from Canada I live? It's like he developed a fascination with cricket.
I'm now hunting CL for girls for Ogged. SF CL is full of single moms, though.
What can I say, your kid's a freak.
I just assume that everyone on Craigslist is either 17 or has an STD. I've never thought about using it before and just read it for entertainment, but this one actually sounded good, except for the possibly too wholesome thing.
Oh for god's sake, people, he does taekwondo.
That might help, so long as he's not showing up in a gi with a unicorn on it.
SF CL is full of single moms, though.
Sweet. Go for the desperate ones.
Take her to see 300. And if you see a Persian being stereotyped in a movie theater, you should immediately stand up and shout incessantly at the screen so that none of the white audience members could enjoy the film.
No, dear god. His dad is the one teaching him to be a big geek, what with the Star Wars and the Star Trek and all that crap. Do you know, I actually caught him the other day telling PK about Dungeons and Dragons...?
I think she's your best bet on CL, Ogged. I flipped through the rest of the ads for you and they all look nuts or people you wouldn't like. Go for it!
What can I say, your kid's a freak.
I expected that. It's the specific manifestation of freakishness that surprised me.
234: Do you think he calculated the probable expense of various sports and decided, yup, let's make dad pay for hockey?
I actually caught him the other day telling PK about Dungeons and Dragons
You might as well go ahead and get him the Church of Wicca introduction pack now.
the probable expense of various sports
Could have been horseback riding, I guess.
I know, man. He's reading the kid the Lord of the Rings trilogy and everything. It's horrifying.
Do you know, I actually caught him the other day telling PK about Dungeons and Dragons...?
Maybe the circumcision doesn't matter, as apparently he's never going to be showing anyone his penis.
Yes, I'm definitely higher up on the geek hierarchy than those D&D nerds. Scoff, scoff.
239: Well, maybe he'll get lucky. Like all the boys I dated in high school.
Geekiness, within reason, isn't so bad, actually.
Come to think of it, D&D plus TKD . . . . maybe martial arts wasn't such a great idea.
he's never going to be showing anyone his penis.
244: Wait . . . are you defending PK? Or my parenting?
I am, as always, dispassionately stating the facts.
I might have made a mathematical model of katamari rolling in LISP in Emacs on Linux to determine the optimal order of object pickup in Katamari Damacy, but I'm still better than those D&D dorks.
apo, I'm hoping you're wearing pants right now, because what this thread needs right now is a link to that awesome nerd heirarchy chart that's out there somewhere on the intarwebs.
I miss the Brunching Shuttlecocks. Also awesome: brunch. Mmm...eggs.
254: Yep, breakfast is unquestionably the most pleasurable meal, as long as one doesn't have anywhere to be and has the time to enjoy it.
253: Go easy on him, apo, he got stood up tonight, he deserves some props.
Anyway, the unabridged version is superior.
Bitch, start PK on chess. Sylvia has gotten much easier about losing games since we started chess -- because there is a point to losing, ie figuring out why you lost and trying to fix it next time. Also it is a lot more fun than Monopoly. You know what I found more bearable than Candyland, mainly because it is over faster? Chutes and Ladders: also a source of valuable moral instruction.
208: Too good to be true. A very clever psychopath who understands the value of minimalism. It's probably been focus-grouped on normal people by the Psychopath Research Council.
258: I actually can't get good at chess because I HATE LOSING so much that I can't play very often against people who are better than me (like everyone, but certainly husband x) and thus make no progress. I don't mind losing as much in games where there is an element of chance, but with chess I just feel like we had a mind-to-mind straight up cognitive wrestle and YOU'RE SMARTER THAN ME FUCK YOU. I do like chess puzzles, though.
244 is absolutely right.
But Date No. 2 was also great: They went to Coney Island and rode the Cyclone, then hung out in a nearby dive bar listening to a Journey cover band. He was amazed that she knew every lyric to every song the band played.
"Rather suddenly, it became clear to me that everything I wanted was there in one package, that no piece of the puzzle was missing," Mr. Heilner said.
The most important factor in successful relationships is compatability. Bad taste helps. Being someone for whom "hot" means "pleasant-looking" helps A LOT. I'll put this one in my "Successful Relationships" file and use it to dissuade the difficult cases with. "Is this you?"
260: Have you tried playing a computer, or playing a real person but via mail or e-mail? The latter is slow, but that can be a good thing, plus not being face to face with someone cuts way down on the feeling that someone just kicked your brain's ass.
229: And as long as he realizes f=ma trumps chi any day of the week.
I'm with gswift when he says that he's suspicious of people who proclaim their own mental health, but don't forget that I come from a family of nutters.
Without more information, I'm inclined (though perhaps wrongly) to see an assertion of mental health not as evidence of wholesomeness but of meanness. "I'm mentally healthy, so please stay away from me if you've ever had anything wrong with you or any problems in your life ever." I'm not saying that people should actively seek out alcoholics for relationships, but there's something deeply unhealthy about people who are only willing to deal with the perfectly healthy.
208: Zzzzzzzz. Who puts a post up saying she wants a talky date and doesn't say anything about herself except that she's healthy, fit and well-educated? What would you talk about, working out? Check her teeth like a horse's maybe?
No, I thought that was one of the good things about it, to leave things genuinely open.
Agree with ogged. Beyond "healthy, fit, and well-educated," it's either all lies, or sufficiently open to interpretation that it might as well be lies.
Unsure. "Physically and mentally healthy" sounds like damning with faint praise.
"How was your date?"
"Mentally healthy."
See? Might as well tack an "articulate", "clean" and "knows the underwear goes on the inside of the pants" on there and be done with it.
On the other hand, since pretty much everyone lies anyway, and ogged's prone to analyzing it to death.. might as well send a message.
Hmm. "Mentally healthy" only sets off alarms for me insofar as, like I said, it signals too wholesome, new-agey. I think that on Craigslist, it does real descriptive work, since so many of the people on it seem kinda crazy. I probably will drop a line, especially since now the weekend's almost over, and it'll be like practice.
The "mentally healthy" woman sounds fine.
269: The underwear what?
This could explain a lot, actually.
Meeting up for coffee might be a bit awkward, though. ("I'm healthy, are you?" "I'm healthy too!" Pause.)
Maybe you want to stroll through a botanical garden instead. ("I'm healthy---hey look at the spikes on that thing!"
"You forgot to close your parenthesis."
"I love you."
"Don't touch the choll-ah---oh, well.")
BG makes a good point:
Without more information, I'm inclined (though perhaps wrongly) to see an assertion of mental health not as evidence of wholesomeness but of meanness. "I'm mentally healthy, so please stay away from me if you've ever had anything wrong with you or any problems in your life ever."
But also:
I think that on Craigslist, it does real descriptive work
Both true. It's very contextual. In most circumstances I would be suspicious of anyone proclaiming her stellar mental health; in online personals, and especially on CL, it can actually be useful shorthand.
I'm not sure I really understand complaints of people arguing against the woman. I don't think CL postings do a very good job of sorting unless the poster has very specific interests: "Big For/tuny fan; let's ruin some lives together." Her ad seems to acknowledge the inability of the post to impart anything important. She's fit, well-educated, and not crazy. So are a lot of people. I take her to be saying, "No obvious disqualifications, and that's all you'd ever get out of this, anyway."
She seems like a peach. Fuck meeting her for coffee, ogged; just propose via email.
Re 261: UnfoggedCon IV?
For his annual June scavenger hunts, he invites about 25 friends and friends of friends. They form teams and make video recordings of themselves as they track down a piece of the Berlin Wall in Midtown or convince strangers to recount, on camera, how they lost their virginity.
258: I was going to recommend chess earlier, but it has a couple downsides--games can take a long time, and take a lot of concentration, and it might be a bit too hard for a six year old to play well enough to have fun with it. But what you can do is play various versions of small chess, on smaller boards with fewer pieces, which simplifies the game and makes it quicker (but more drawish). Games involving just a king, rook, and a piece or two on a 5X5 or 6X6 board can be a good way to start out.
Another thing that'd be good for young players is to skip the whole "checkmate but don't actually take the king" deal, because it's so much easier to explain the rules when it's just "capture the other king".
260: Have Husband X give you odds. He starts without a knight, or some such thing.
Have Husband X give you odds. He starts without a knight, or some such thing.
Or make him play with one lobe tied behind his back.
278 sounds like way too much m-fun to actually be enjoyable. Especially the part about convincing strangers to tell naughty stories. It's like Live-Action Truth or Dare or something.
Another thing that'd be good for young players is to skip the whole "checkmate but don't actually take the king" deal, because it's so much easier to explain the rules when it's just "capture the other king".
If you add to this rule:
1. You cannot end your turn in check
this rule:
2. To win a game, capture the opposing king,
the game is impossible to win.
277: The psychopaths' focus groups obviously did an excellent job. Tim would walk in like a lamb to the slaughter. Clearly he right in the middle of their target population.
Uh, I am delurking to draw your attention to the personals in the London Review of Books.
Fantastic: My last affair ended with a round of applause from a crew of stand-by paramedics. If the next one has to end I'll settle for a text message. Woman, 39. Seeks man who knows when to wear his Medic Alert Badge, carries his own emergency injectable adrenaline kit, and isn't too scared to say 'actually, I don't feel like lobster tonight'. Box no. 05/10
"Just once I'd like to date a woman whose home isn't on Bitch Island, accessible only by Satan's Hell Train into which is continuously piped the blood-curdling screams of her multitudinous previous victims. If you don't think that's too much to ask - and don't have a long-running tab at your local pharmacist - then write to stupid man, 43. Box no. 05/08"
*relurking*
Oh no, don't do that. My brusqueness is for humorous effect only.
Also, I tire of this new handle. Back to the tried-and-true.
No, I am mostly relurking due to my inability to give up lowercase, smilies, terrible spelling and analogies. A smilie would go here if it was allowed.
Would that you knew when to give up the indicative!
Would that you knew when to give up the indicative!
Would that I could kick you in the throat!
Yeah, thats sort of what i meant. Could we have some sort of amnesty for Europeans with English as a third language?
As a second language, maybe. You can't (for the most part) help where you were born. But not choosing to learn English until the third go-around is an unforgivable slight.
I knew it! Raster is a foreigner spying on American procrastination practices and snark production methods.
I'm sure he's in awe: Americans procrastinate even on weekends, when decadent Europeans are relaxing and living La Dolce Vita.
I grew up bilingual - so got here at the first chance i got. Still can't do the proper English grammer etc. for the life of me. What IS the indicative anyway? And no, don't tell me - it's too late [in so many ways] and the baby is crying. Later...
The indicative is what the union of the subjunctive and the imperative isn't.
258: The Offspring liked chess; I think he started around age five, playing mostly with my then-BF. By the time he was 8, he routinely beat me [not that I'm a great chess player, but still...] and by the time he was 10, was good enough that playing the Biophysicist - who is a good chess player - wasn't a complete rout.
We really didn't play very many conventional American board games - we played Mancala, Jenga, Go-Moku [the kid version; only 3 disks in a row] and Yut. And endless games of Pokemon cards. I suspect that he played the standards at day care/preschool, but he expressed a lack of interest in owning anything but Hungry Hungry Hippos [one of the world's noisiest games]. And every computer game that the Learning Company ever made.
I'd be more inclined to trust "Physically healthy psychopath seeks trusting gentleman for wild sex, followed by visits to ER to staunch the bleeding. Virgins welcome".
I'm still neurotic about losing in chess. I blame praise.
pdf -- I read your blog entry about chess and appreciated it.
I love most board games but have never gotten into chess because of the reasons mentioned -- it is a very difficult game to enjoy losing.
I don't know, entirely, why chess has held so little interest for me but, ultimately, it doesn't feel improvisational in the way that I like in games. I have the perception, which is almost certainly incorrect, that playing chess well requires the ability to stick to one's strategy. In most games I am very good about trying to get a slight advantage and then being disciplined about exploiting it, but I also appreciate games in which the dynamic of the game, can change suddenly.
Chess probably is like that, but my perception that it is *supposed to be* predictable when played well has discouraged me from learning it.
Still can't do the proper English grammer etc. for the life of me. What IS the indicative anyway?
Don't listen to w-lfs-n, your English is fine, even the sentence he nitpicked.
I'm a bigger fan of chess sets than I am of the game itself (the latter lack of enthusiasm probably largely due to the fact that I'm not very good at chess).
Everyone should learn to play bridge!
Don't listen to w-lfs-n, your English is fine, even the sentence he nitpicked.
"w-lfs-n, your" should be "w-lfs-n. Your".
That would also be acceptable, but I prefer beginning a sentence anew.
None of the above formulations is correct: proper nouns are traditionally capitalized in English.
302: I suspect the "predictable" [i.e., logic and skill over chance] nature of chess is why the Offspring liked it/took to it as he did. He prefers strategy and tactics over rolls of the dice; math games were amongst his favourite LC computer games when he was little. Given that his reading disability involves on/off difficulties in assigning meaning to words, and was much worse when he was younger, things that had more than a hint of randomness were unpleasant. He still thinks gambling is idiotic, which dashed my hopes that he would become a poker hustler champ [sniff!!].
Everyone should learn to play bridge!
Agreed. The world would be a better place.
No, I thought that was one of the good things about it, to leave things genuinely open.
Open, like her head, with the breeze blowing through and all, is what I'm thinking. But, hey, different strokes -- and on Craig's List, you could certainly do worse.
Just be sure to tell us how her teeth are when you get back.
