If you already promised to get the surgery, you're stuck with it. Otherwise, I'd say that prolonging a sick pet's life with expensive and invasive procedures is no favor to it.
Oh, I should have clicked "more"; LB gets it right.
and 2: I'm not sure about the 'stuck with it'. What if she'd promised the surgery, and then it turned out to cost something possible, but ridiculous (oh, I dunno, $10K)? There are circumstances under which it'd be okay to back out, I think.
And trying to talk him out of it should be okay under any circumstances.
Maybe health care for mice is similar to the human system and there's a 6 month wait for the surgery. Problem solved, and PK has received an important civics lesson- sorry, kid, if only Mickey had lived in France...
1 beat me to it.
It's a mouse at the end of its natural lifespan. This isn't worth $500. You can either euthanize the mouse, or PK can spend part of his $50 on a fancy mouse bed or something and give it palliative care or donate to a local shelter in honor of Micky or something.
I think it's worthwhile to teach PK that while death is sad, it's also part of pet ownership to know when you're extending the pet's life for the sake of the pet, or prolonging its death for your sake. Animals can't find meaning in suffering or form happy memories of seeing their kids grow up.
I guess convincing him of the euthanasia option then buying him a pet snake is out the question? Poor PK. I'd say this would be a good lesson on death, but coming so soon on the heels of Squeaky dying, it just seems gratuitous.
I don't know whether the cost-analysis and civics lesson strategies are good ideas. My parents ended up putting down our childhood dog after he got mauled (for about the third time). The principle involved there was that sometimes it's cruel to prolong pain.
If I try to talk him out of it, how do I do that tactfully? Emphasize the dangers of surgery? The cold hard cash reality? The distressing fact that Micky's going to die soon anyway--which I'd rather not harp on since Squeaky just kicked?
Also, kudos to LB for extremely clever pseudonyming.
I'd say that prolonging a sick pet's life with expensive and invasive procedures is no favor to it.
Agreed, and for humans too, and I'm lots closer to needing it than most of you are. I'd engage PK in a "Let's go over this again" talk. If he needs to grieve now he'll learn how to do it. He *will* need to be able to at some points in his life and insulating him from biological reality until he's a full adult isn't doing him any favor either.
The distressing fact that Micky's going to die soon anyway
Unfortunately, I think this is your best option. Teh suck.
9: Yeah, the heels of Squeaky's death is a big issue.
I'm not so hung up on the prolonging pain thing--at this point, I don't think Micky's in pain, she seems fine. I am a little hung up on the "spending the money is ridiculous" thing, though. Not so much b/c I disagree, but b/c we spend ridiculous money on unnecessary crap constantly. It's a moral issue inasmuch as that money could be better used to actually help real people; but if I were just going to fritter it away on shoes, it would seem to me that mouse surgery would be a better option.
What I really keep thinking here is that becoming personally attached to an animal with a three year lifespan is just a recipe for heartbreak. Even with a dog -- DogBreath is nine, and while she's healthy as anything, she won't live through the kids' teenage years, and I get preemptively wrecked about that. And I'm not even crazy attached to her (that is, Buck wanted a dog. While I'm fond of DogBreath, I still kind of think that owning a dog in a city is a little goofy.)
The distressing fact that Micky's going to die soon anyway--which I'd rather not harp on since Squeaky just kicked?
And this, awful though it is, is the way to go. "Micky's an old mouse, and won't live too much longer no matter what we do. Surgery hurts, and may not fix the problem -- odds are, if we do the surgery, Micky's only going to live an extra month or two at the best, and may die right away. Better to just keep her at home and let her live as long as she does."
13: Yeah, that's what I'm inclined to do (along with pointing out that the surgery itself is dangerous, blah blah). I just feel shitty, I guess, backing out of it. And I feel shitty about telling him that basically I'm unwilling to do something I'm perfectly capable of doing (affording the surgery) in a situation where his other mouse just died and he doesn't want to lose Micky too.
Are there bigger, longer lived rodents that would still trigger the appeal of mousiness for him? I suppose guinea pigs aren't very mousy.
B, probably best to leave the cash out of it. Too cold. Plus, PK's smart, and he can figure out how many dinners out he'd give up to save his mouse.
Tell PK the surgery is dangerous, probably won't make Micky feel better, and mice his age have had fine old lives and it's best to take care of them and make sure they have plenty of treats and fresh bedding so they're happy before they die.
There's no way to get around death with a pet that lives 18 months on average, unfortunately.
Am I the only sucker here who thinks there's an underlying moral issue re. what good is done by actually "saving" $500?
The average lifespan of a mouse is only 1.5-2 years. Maybe PK should get a parrot.
The "surgery hurts" angle is probably a helpful one, and Cala's idea about a special mouse bed is a pretty good one too. For the price of the surgery, you could get a big parrot that would almost certainly outlive you, and possibly PK. But having lived with a parrot, I'm convinced they aren't meant to be pets.
I agree with all of you. I guess I'm just having Mama heartbreak. Plus looking for absolution.
14: Micky may not be in pain now, but the surgery would almost certainly be painful and sad for her. It seems the better option to let her go easily and painlessly.
Also, it is preposterous to spend $500 on mouse surgery, but I agree that that's not the best argument to make to a kid.
Rrrr. I get stuck on that, because it probably doesn't take me too long to get through $500 in frivolous spending (unnecessary takeout, books, whatever). So the 'immoral to spend it on a mouse, not charity' argument clangs unless I'm going to go all Peter Singer and sell all I have and give it to the poor.
", it is preposterous to spend $500 on mouse surgery, but I agree that that's not the best argument to make to a kid."
I am not sure that I understand this one. Why shouldnt you tell the kid that animals die and you do not spend large sums of money to save them?
Are there turtles with personalities? They live forever.
28: There's nothing wrong with telling a kid that, but they're not likely to be understanding, and I thought that B was trying to get out of this situation with a minimum of heartbreak on all sides.
26: Well, so do I. What bugs me is thinking that basically it boils down to "I'm not willing to give up frivolous spending for a couple of weeks for my kid" thing. It's helping to think about it in terms of the distress of surgery to the mouse (though it would probably be pretty minimal, you know). But since we *can* afford it, the "it's only a mouse" thing makes me feel guilty. I've spent that much having my cat's teeth cleaned without thinking twice.
20: There probably is, but... come on. It's not like this money was earmarked for the women's shelter but-for the mouse emergency. You could do lots of other good things with that money, but you probably won't. The mouse has a brain the size of an eraserhead and a mind to match. Its pain can be real, but I think would count as a negligible harm.
So the question is whether it's worth $500 to maybe save a mouse for ten weeks that you can get at Petco for $2.89.
(Full disclosure: I can't even get on board with $500 for cancer treatment for a cat, so there's a good chance I'm a heartless bastard.)
I'm just having Mama heartbreak.
Seeing your kids selflessly miserable is just the most godawful thing ever. After having children, I can now no longer watch the medical shows with sick kids. They just kill me.
I do not think you are giving kids enough credit. Sing "the Circle of Life" with them. Explain that animals (and people) die.
28: Because kids love animals as much as parents love kids. And I think b/c when you boil it right down, I honestly do think that in the big picture a mouse's life qua life is more important than $500.
14: yeah, that's a more general issue. I mean, how many of us could sit down and do a comprehensive budget analysis, and not end up determining that most of it could be used for better (in some reasonable sense) purposes? In your case, mouse surgery vs. donate to worthy cause might be a no brainer, but it's more likely to be mouse surgery vs. random books, dvd's and a night out, or whatever.
It is pretty hard to follow this up on the heels of Squeaky's death, but on the other hand maybe that gives you an in to talk about it. I mean, there are a lot of issues involved; I don't know how many he is ready to talk about. Sometimes the best (or only) thing you can do is make your loved ones/pets/whatevers remaining time as good as possible. Mortality isn't going away, and assuming he's going to want more pets (seems likely, unless this really throws him of) this is a cycle he'll have to get used to. Some sort of symbolic recognition might be a really good idea anyway, let him use some of his own money (match it?) in a donation or whatever. Help him celebrate them, somehow.
I honestly do think that in the big picture a mouse's life qua life is more important than $500.
You need not to own mice.
35:
So you avoid the lesson that animals die? At what point do you stop? I am no expert, but I think kids need to learn about things dying.
What bugs me is thinking that basically it boils down to "I'm not willing to give up frivolous spending for a couple of weeks for my kid" thing.
The thing is, though, is that PK doesn't understand how little the $500 is going to buy. It's going to buy guaranteed pain for Micky, and maybe, but maybe not, an additional month or two of life for her. If you thought it would get something that PK would really value more than that, you'd spend the money.
35: sure, there is no objective `too much money' here, only subjective ones. The problem is, you aren't going to spend $500 and get a healthy young mouse back. It's not even clear that the procedure would necc. improve it's quality of life.
It could be worse. When my sister was about four years old, she and a five-year old friend were playing with her friend's hamsters, and my clumsy little sister made a wild grab for one as it tried to run behind the bookcase.
And killed it. Little sister felt awful, little friend said, tearfully, "I forgive you for killing my pet, I know it was an accident", and both of them cried and then got over it.
PK will get past Squeaky and Micky.
Am I the only sucker here who thinks there's an underlying moral issue re. what good is done by actually "saving" $500?
You are right, of course. The real issue for me is that you already promised. So I would say have the talk to PK about the moral issue and how it might hurt the mouse even more to have the surgery rather than to let nature take its course etc. (all the really good point made above), but if he says "but momma, you promised," keep your promise.
PK is lucky to have a mother who cares so much about such things.
38: Will, you aren't paying attention. PK just had an object lesson in that, with the other mouse. So that wasn't the point.
When I was a kid the recommended route for parents was always the switcheroo, and magically the mouse lives to twice the expected span. I guess that doesn't work once there's a visible injury. Parenthood today is so much more complicated, but I guess the kids won't grow up to have as many issues
38: No, obviously not: Squeaky died. But I'm a pet person: I figure that one pays, if one can afford it, for almost anything one would pay for for a person. Life is life, love is love, blah blah. The main difference between people and animals when it comes to medical care is that I don't think animals have a sense of futurity: so a cat going through chemo would be really fucking miserable, and I'd be inclined to say no to that. But a surgery that might solve the problem overnight with minimal discomfort to the cat? I would say yes.
Although I'd probably dither with an older cat that was going to cost more than a thousand bucks, say (in my present financial situation, where I can afford that although it would require some sacrifice). But I'd feel guilty about it, just like $500 is apparently my mouse guilt cutoff line.
On another note, does anyone else think the vet is a complete shithead for suggesting this under the circumstances? Wouldn't the decent thing for him to do, with an old mouse (pretty much with any mouse) be to suggest keeping the mouse comfortable, rather than surgery?
44: I think that sort of approach is really stupid. Then again, I think decieving children is objectivly bad in a non-trivial way, only to be done to avoid much worse, certain damage.
I do think that reneging on the promise would be bad. Maybe the lesson will teach itself! Micky comes back from the surgery in pain, drags itself around gruesomely for a month or so, and then dies. There's a moral in there somewhere.
I'm not fond of seeing my kids sad either, but I'd be extremely leery of endorsing that level of cost and effort to save a mouse. At some point everyone just has to learn to let some things go, and a 500 dollar cancer surgery for a mouse seems like heading down a bad path.
Seriously. What's the risk the mouse dies in surgery?
What are the odds that the poor mouse wouldn't even live through the surgery? Pretty high, I'd guess.
Tell him that his mice have had a good life but everything has a time to go. Explain that Micky is old and in pain. Then give him a hug. He will recover. Let him have a big funeral for Micky and let him design a little grave monument.
does anyone else think the vet is a complete shithead for suggesting this under the circumstances?
I think the vet must have a practice in an area where people pay $500 for operations for their mice. I mean, maybe this is something a lot of people want. Kind of hard for me to believe, but it's California, after all.
Cala beat me to the surgery-survival issue, and I forgot to sign 51.
figure that one pays, if one can afford it, for almost anything one would pay for for a person.
Well, at least my parents were consistent on that score. No drawn-out Schiavo deaths in this family. No sir.
I do think, if PK holds you to the promise, that you should make it clear that you promised unwisely and are keeping the promise, but that for all the reasons we've talked about it's a bad idea to do this sort of thing.
(Full disclosure: I can't even get on board with $500 for cancer treatment for a cat, so there's a good chance I'm a heartless bastard.)
I'm right there with you. To me, a 500 dollar quote for this sort of thing signals that it's time for a trash bag and an exhaust pipe.
On a different note, cloning mice is pretty easy. It would cost more than $500, but it would be a good introduction for the lad into the nature vs. nurture issues.
I've spent that much having my cat's teeth cleaned without thinking twice.
To get all the pieces of squeaky out before PK saw it?
52: Yeah, or he just tries it on in the hopes of hitting one or two people a year who'll go for it.
Dear "Baffled"? WTF is the matter with you, LB?
I think it's pointless to get hung up on the $500 itself. I mean, it's clear that there isn't an objective value, so saying `i would' or `i wouldn't', or arguing about a right amount won't get anywhere useful.
I thought that was very clever. So pthbbbtb.
Wait a minute, if the issue is the $500, you could probably pay much less than that. Put up a flyer at the local UC graduate school/medical center saying "Hey lab techs who do surgeries on mice and rats all day, I will pay you $60 to remove a tumor from my mouse's clavicle."
Reneging on the promise isn't great, but, and I'm sorry to be harping on this, it's a mouse that will likely suffer more as a result of the surgery if it doesn't die altogether. Get out of the promise by explaining to PK that it isn't going to save Micky because sometimes when animals get really old, all doctors can do is try their best but they can't make a mouse live forever, and the surgery will hurt. Find something else mouse-related to do with the cash. Nice mouse bed. Little mouse tombstone.
(If you're reading a few intermittent "it's a goddamn mouse" in here, you're not reading in anything wrong. Sorry, I'm trying to hold it back.)
58: trick for that is to just buy a common lab strain first off; then you can always get another later.
just avoid the disease promoting ones, I guess.
(If you're reading a few intermittent "it's a goddamn mouse" in here, you're not reading in anything wrong. Sorry, I'm trying to hold it back.)
Word.
65: This is where I get stuck -- I'm almost perfectly equipoised between Ideal and Jack's 'a promise is a promise' position, and your 'it's a goddamn mouse'. It's so hard, with kids, not to commit yourself to promises that would be silly to keep -- I end up breaking some, and then I feel awful about it.
Remember that if you don't pony up the cash to help him save his poor mouse, thirty years from now he may decide it's not worth the expense to help poor 'ole mom remove her her tumor, either. After all, she'll probably be dead soon anyway.
65,67: Which is exactly how the point is missed, I think. I mean, I'm completely with you *for myself*, but I defy you to construct some sort of objective valuation of it for B. & PK.
70 cont., oh, and it derails the `but you promised' part, which is imo more important.
trick for that is to just buy a common lab strain first off; then you can always get another later.
The problem here is that you might get into an arms race with other parents, similar to what's happening with birthday parties.
"I know Madison R. has a TLR-3/TLR-7/TLR-9 triple knockout mouse, honey, but having a MyD88-knockout is just as nice. Remember, you're saving up for the leptin-knockout gerbil, and some children have to make do with regular BALB/c mice."
"Well, at least my parents were consistent on that score. No drawn-out Schiavo deaths in this family. No sir."
I've told my son to put the pillow over my head if I am not awake by 11:00 am.
Methinks Brock Landers ate his Wheaties this morning.
Well, I am still the owner of an $800 guinea pig with terminal cancer three years on. I did not really mean to spend that much but my kids were across the pond visiting the old country when it took ill under my care. The first $100 was to address they way it started to go bald, the there was the odd wheeze and lump that suggested further tests. The x-rays weren't cheep either. Suddenly I was in to the thing $800 and we still hadn't gotten to the point of surgery. That is when we decided to opt for palliative carrot and veggie therapy and the goofy thing has now outlived its healthy cage mates. Go figure.
At any rate anesthesia on something like a mouse is so touchy that I cannot imagine them giving him good chances. You really want to look at what the vet told you, many times they are in the business of helping the owners with their own issues more than the animal. Good vets will read you to see what your want to happen in a terminal case, they want to suggest what you want them to. If that makes any sense. If you were giving off a "I need to try everything possible vibe for my own sanity" vibe they would be more likely to suggest extreme measures and downplay the risks.
One thing to keep in mind though is that it is not just a mouse anymore, it is PK's mouse. He will judge you on your actions in this situation at a personal level, so utilitarian arguments about donating the money to do more good will be lost. We have a relative that is still a bit on the outs with his kids after putting their dog down when everyone thought that it was inappropriate, but made utilitarian sense in a way. The "do you want to put us down like fluffy" line gets pulled out in arguments and will be a part of that poor man's legacy.
This is part of pets that really sucks, but then again this is the part of life that really sucks as well. My solution is to just live it, in our case the new puppy will be here May 8th!
Good Luck B!
You sound like my mother. Her (as yet unwritten) living will provides for us to sneak a .22 into the hospital to finish her off if necessary.
I shot a mouse in Reno just to watch it die.
Because it's a "goddamn mouse," I feel less bad advocating the promise-keeping, mouse-pain-inflicting solution. If not euthanised, that mouse's death is probably going to be spectacularly awful.
I'm really trying not to sound heartless. For me what gets it is that the mouse isn't a person. The mouse can't find meaning in its suffering. The mouse can't think, endure, o my heart, you have suffered worse before. The mouse can't reflect and feel grateful that it had another four weeks of sniffing around the cage.
All that really matters is PK, and I'm inclined to think the better lesson is "Sometimes animals get sick when they're old, and while mama thinks Micky is lucky to have a boy like you who wants to spend all his money, a surgery won't help Micky and it's better to make him comfortable so he has a happy rest of his life."
78: Well, right. Your position is "You promised to set $500 on fire, so go get the lighter out." And I'm almost with you, but I'm stuck. I'd be twisting PK's arm pretty firmly to get him on board with not harassing the poor mouse any more.
81: Then pick him up by the tail and swallow him whole.
The mouse can't find meaning in its suffering. The mouse can't think, endure, o my heart, you have suffered worse before. The mouse can't reflect and feel grateful that it had another four weeks of sniffing around the cage.
I don't think you can be sure of this. (Unless you're willing to trust science/reason.)
"You sound like my mother. Her (as yet unwritten) living will provides for us to sneak a .22 into the hospital to finish her off if necessary."
She needs a better plan than that. Rest at home, conveniently leave the gun close to the bed.
78: Sure, and when the mouse is in unending pain (if you can tell), then euthanize it.
Let the mouse die and give the kid a haircut.
If it does end up being PK's decision to keep the (goddamned) mouse alive, then B must take all of PK's money.
87. Kidding. $500 is $500, but you promised. This is where "We'll see" is the parent's best friend.
88: And make him work off the rest! "We'll lend you $450, son, on a 3-year plan at 7.5% interest." And then send him to work in the brickyard.
I think a lot of the reasons above for B to break her promise, downplaying the utility of the money and playing up the vital facts of the mouse are important and should be used. But B, I think the most important thing is for you to validate PK's feelings, to empathize with him and not to negotiate with him. If he feels that you've let him down, you shouldn't argue that you didn't, or that you have good reasons, although those explanations will be important. I believe the most important thing is when he says how shitty he feels that you've changed your mind, you say, "Of course you do. You have every reason to," rather than to say, "But let me explain why my decision makes sense." At least at first. The rest he'll understand, even the promise-breaking, if he feels that you feel how bad he feels. (Terrible sentence, that last one, but that is my point.)
As for your own feelings --- it's really easy to lose perspective with pets. When my cat's spleen and liver quit together, the emergency hospital said we could operate for $1500. I couldn't afford it from my paycheck, but certainly from my rainy day fund, and I thought, haven't I made a bargain with this little creature that I'm gonna stick up for it? Fortunately a family friend who was a veterinarian talked me down. But it sucks because just about anyone outside your home can tell you that the right decision is to let the animal pass on. It's a particularly barbed solipsism.
All that, plus I second 83. Validate, empathize, swallow.
"The mouse can't find meaning in its suffering. The mouse can't think, endure, o my heart, you have suffered worse before. The mouse can't reflect and feel grateful that it had another four weeks of sniffing around the cage."
And here I was just thinking it was time for B.phd and the kid to have an in-depth discussion of the nature of consciousness and the definition of "humanity," briefly sidetracked by a discussion of burial rites in mice versus humans.
Also, these evolutions in veterinary care are kind of ridiculous. Invasive surgery on goldfish? (paywall'd, sorry) Why, back in my day, people'd have fifteen kids just to end up with three live ones and go to dogfights three times a day!
* shakes head *
Well that was weird. Anyhow, those vets, huh?!
90.--I've talked about my parents' approach to giving children money before.
But kids can deal with the fact that there was something that could be done (our dog could have had lots of testing, and maybe we would have found something), but that it wasn't kind to the animal to prolong its suffering. We managed it in the calahome with an elderly dog and a cat with kidney failure. All of us are now adults capable of forming emotional attachments with people and animals (except maybe goddamn mice); none of us think that our parents were callous.
83 made me literally lol.
Has anyone mentioned just lying yet? Take Squeaky to "the doctor" and then return. Sadly, his prognosis won't look good. I would only suggest this because the surgery was promised, but what one kid doesn't know won't hurt him, in this case, maybe...
Or a standard sit-com exchange-dead-pet-for-similar-looking-live-one scenario.
I gotta say that I'm pretty pleased to see Beefo Meaty showing up in the comments these days.
47- Oh, I agree it's stupid, I'm just saying that parenting advice used to be a lot less sentimental or based on reasonable psychology. I had a pet die while I was at summer camp, my parents didn't tell me and kept sending letters about how the pet was doing fine, complete with made up stories about what it did last week. Probably seemed like the easier course for them at the time.
I spent $2500 on a dog, but he's lived another 6 years and counting, so it was worth it (also had pet health insurance, so it was only $500 out of pocket) so I can understand arguments to spending what seem to be unreasonable amounts for an animal.
98: Likewise. I've been biting back a certain amount of 'Golly, Mr. Tweety, I love your work. What are The Editors like in person?" because I'd sound like an idiot, but that's what I've been thinking.
98- Right, it's like the post he had about having a famous writer actually communicate with you, only not quite so much, more like some guy whose writing I found funny and now he's on the same message board as me.
I agree with Stroll. Kids don't need to be put on the spot with major existential life-and-death decisions.
a .22 Geez! Helium, helium, helium! If you're gonna DIY, unless you're very precise, a .22 will just mess her up. If the idea is to go out with a bang get at least a 9mm and be prepared for lots of spackling and repainting afterwards.
One of the best things you can do for your kids is to teach them to cope with life's suckier side. I think that includes not only things like a pet's death but also the reality that parents aren't always right, sometimes need to revoke improvident commitments, etc. You have to be able to talk about it in an empathetic way and respond to what the kid is feeling, but part of learning that parents can't always make things right is learning that sometimes our urge to try outruns our ability to follow through (read "ability" to include an element of willingness).
he's lived another 6 years and counting, so it was worth it
There are people who would find that utterly insane.
Thanks, all. I agree with the gist of the thread; I'll try to talk him out of it gently, which I suspect I'll be able to do. If not, then we'll see if I cave or not.
In any case, Micky'll be euthanized sooner or later; my tendency is to go with "keep an eye on it, and when she starts seeming uncomfortable, kill her." Which is actually what I did with a rat I had in college that also developed a tumor, though at that point I didn't pay a vet $50 to tell me that in front of my kid :P
At least in some cases, kids will appreciate it more when their parents let them in on the reasoning behind their decisions, especially when those decisions are difficult or go against immediate desires. With some kind of a rationale to work with, it feels much less like having unchallengeable decrees handed down from Mount Zion (which will make a certain personality type dig in their heels). It's good to show understanding of how bad they feel, but can also be good to explain decisions and to acquaint them with the practice of re-thinking things.
If you're gonna DIY, unless you're very precise, a .22 will just mess her up.
Yeah, definitely not a reliable route.
106: Goddamn vet. That's just pure manipulation on his part: pay me $500 or be the bad guy that killed your kid's pet. Can we get him euthanized?
Better than coming too early, DS.
I think someone's probably said something along these lines already but perhaps it's worth dissolving one lesson from the other—the civics from the life/death moral one—and focusing on the latter? I think it would be not reprehensible for you to say that you've come to realize that surgery is likely a poor option given the pain that the mouse will likely endure; how best to spend or whether to spend his $50 seems like a sidebar question and a distraction from the more compelling issue: what the prospect of pain means and when it is and isn't okay to walk back from a promise (or an affirmative answer).
After the fact (assuming you put the mouse to sleep) you might bring up the notion that he could spend his dough in whatever crunchy way seems suitable.
Man. That's just awful. B, I hate to say it because I'm cheap about everything but myself, but you made the promise and you should keep it. I think you have the option of explaining all the downsides but you should do it with the clear statement that because you have made a promise you will keep that promise if PK asks you to. I agree it stinks to be backed into a corner but that's where you are.
I know it seems ridiculous to spend the $500 on a mouse. Lots of things seem ridiculous when seen from the other side of one's fence. I spent upwards of $1500 in two days on a cat that I ultimately had put down at the end of those 2 days because there was nothing to do but kill him or extend his suffering for my own amusement. I could grasp that at 31. When I was 10 I spent a long time hating my parents for making that same choice for my very old and very cancerous dog. I could have opted for the pillowcase and the tailpipe, sure, and I don't begrudge anyone that perspective because yeah, it's a goddamn animal, but when it's one's own animal it's a different thing entirely.
98, 100, 101: aw-you-guys.
I just like threads where every fifth comment isn't somebody saying "seriously, The Editors, isn't it time for Beefo Meaty to get his own blog?"
The Editors is funny as hell in person, as you might expect.
The Editors is funny as hell in person, as you might expect.
Now I envy you.
What is The Editors' position on mouse surgery? How many dollars per mousemonth of quality life?
If two months of a mouse's life are worth $500, in one month a few years back I probably destroyed $100,000 worth of mouse experience. I could have used that money, too.
There isn't a market in mouse experience, so it's not worth anything. Econ 101.
I think you have the option of explaining all the downsides but you should do it with the clear statement that because you have made a promise you will keep that promise if PK asks you to. I agree it stinks to be backed into a corner but that's where you are.
Gotta be careful about that one, because it puts the kid in the position of either disappointing Mommy or making the decision to let his mouse die. Better, I think, to make the decision yourself and explain why than to put the decision on the kid's shoulders. There are times when you force a kid to either make a tough decision or incur your disapproval, but I don't think this is one of them.
The Editors is funny as hell in person, as you might expect.
Has he got the massive sideburns going on?
I just go ahead and envisage both Sifu and The Eds. as dinosaurs now, clacking away at their keyboards with their nifty little dinosaur claws.
"There are times when you force a kid to either make a tough decision or incur your disapproval, but I don't think this is one of them."
"Do you really want to end up like Uncle Apostropher?"
119: Couldn't you clearly state what you think is the best decision, but still give the kid the option? Then they wouldn't be forced into the corner, but would have the easy option of trusting in their parent's judgment.
110: I'll have to check with the kid but I'm pretty sure they're supposed to give you all the options available and let you pick. The NYTimes has been running lots of stories recently about pets as family members and the growing "Do whatever it takes" sentiment. Not laying the options out, no matter how ridiculous they might seem, gets one into lawsuit territory, and ostensibly plausible options are not all that hard to find on the net.
Surely that doesn't preclude sending PK out of the room for a lollipop or to get a mouse cookie and breaking the news to the adult alone, rather than to the six-year-old.
119: I think you have an excellent point. Never having parented, and never planning to, in many ways I am extremely poorly qualified to discuss this at all. I'm not even good at being an uncle. That said, I was once the kid whose opinion wasn't consulted and I resented it. On the other hand, now-me realizes that then-me would have been incapable of making any decision other than "whatever it takes." I have no idea what B should do. My advice conflicts with itself and my own experience.
I also agree that the vet would have been wise to at least only lay everything out for B rather than for both of them. It would be so easy for me to suspect the motives of the vet.
My last vet experience involved a $500 battery of tests, followed by a sit-down where they explained that surgery would be $2,000 and would we like an instant credit application?
There was nothing wrong with the cat, by the way.
Some thoughts:
1) Get the facts. Does the vet think the mouse is in pain now? Will the mouse be in pain during or after any of the possible procedures? What are the stats for the various possible outcomes? These facts might help the decision making process and they're facts PK needs to consider.
2) The biopsy is probably the least expensive of the options, save the do nothing option. You and PK could discuss going step by step, revisiting the situation after each step. Although unlikely, you might get a pleasant surprise (e.g., it's an abcess).
3) Ditto the person who said tell PK you think the promise you made may have been unwise, but be prepared to keep it.
4) There are a number of important issues involved here. IMHO, PK's love of, as someone said, "his" mouse (i.e., Mickey is not just any mouse) is pretty important. More important is the mouse's well-being, as much as it can be determined. If you discuss and focus on what's best for the mouse, the situation might resolve itself well.
5) Also IMHO, if you go ahead w/the expensive stuff, it would at least be well spent in that it would be encouraging PK's love of mice (and perhaps nature in general?). You never know, he might grow up to be a mouseologist.
6) Wrt vets suggesting expensive procedures: Perhaps the vet should have explained the options and expenses away from PK, if s/he didn't do so. Personally, I'd much prefer the vet to lay out all the options, costs, statistics, etc. and leave me to make the decision. I really don't want a vet ever deciding not to present an option bco his/her opinions.
Please note that I am the Official Crazy Cat Lady(TM) of the neighborhood and have made what some would consider extravagant decisions re: our cats' care. Yeah, I think about whether I should send that money to needy people. I haven't figured that out yet, possibly bc the answer might well be that yes, I should, but screw it, I like my cats better and they make me very happy.
BTW, chemo for cats needn't be an ordeal. One of our cats had it. Pretty mellow cat, took it in stride. But we wouldn't put other, more high strung cats through it.
Last of all: good luck!
I'm with everyone who thinks the goddam vet should be put down.
Also, you shouldn't have promised, and if you hadn't, there wouldn't have been a problem. That may not sound helpful, but it does bring matters back to the promise. Which you should break. That way PK gets two important life lessons: that parents can get things wrong, and that pets die.
But you should tell him what you are going to do, and try to persuade him of what is true: that the surgery won't actually improve the mouse's life at all.
Of course, the truly Machiavellian solution is to take the mouse in to be euthanised, and tell PK it died on the operating table.
125: For sure. You'll not get any arguments from me on that.
Speaking as someone who spent $1,000 on a cat [broken jaw] and whose incredibly generous partner forked over $500 for the family cockatiel [prolapsed cloaca] - and whose six-year-old son's rat developed an ovarian tumour at the end of her life, for which we did not have the $300 surgery, because the vet said her chances of coming through it were zero-to-none - and as someone who promised her then-seven-year-old Offspring that, should he find a discontinued Transformer, she would buy it [my fault; it was in Toys R Us, he asked for it for Xmas, I dawdled, it went] - and got nailed for $75 on a Japanese import, back when that was real money for a toy, because she believes that breaking promises to children is a Very Bad Thing...
No matter what you do, the mouse is going to die soon. He [she?] is at the end of a typical lifespan. When the Offspring's rat couldn't be saved, we discussed what a good life Gus-Gus had had, how he [she, actually] had enjoyed running around the bathtub, had scared my housekeeper, had liked to sit on the Kid's shoulder and chew on his hair, etc. How if Gus-Gus was a person, he would be very grey and wrinkly and old. We spoiled the rat with all its favourite treats and extra nice bedding and [according to the Kid] his favourite cartoons [all in Japanese]. When Gus-Gus died, we buried him with all formality, including a lengthy eulogy. It was sad, but the Kid got over it. The important thing was that we never denied the depth of his grief.
PK will get over it, as well - but the surgery, however well-intentioned, is false hope. The mouse is very likely not to survive, and if it does, its little mouse mind will probably only remember fear and pain and it will most likely cower in the corner of its cage, afraid of PK. [The cockatiel was terrified of the Biophysicist to the end of her days, as he was the one who administered the antibiotic shots.] It would be kinder to the mouse to let it live out its days in the environment it is used to, with all the niceties possible [more for PK's benefit than the mouse's] - Cala's suggestion of a special mouse bed is a great one.
My two cents are that you need to be realistic with PK, explain it isn't the money, but the fact that the mouse is very old and would be frightened and pained by the surgery, which, at best, would give it a few more weeks of life. That what you promised was perhaps not the best thing for poor Micky, who would probably prefer to be with PK and be cuddled and loved until he dies, rather than go to a hospital with strangers.
There's no good solution to a pet's dying, no matter how old one gets.
I just want to note for future pet buying plans that while turtles have plenty of personality, if you're willing to be slow and look for it, they can also die suddenly. Mine did when I was 8 and I have never actually had a pet since then. :-(
Annie neglected to mention that her cats regularly feed on mice.
134: Ha! They most certainly do not, although they almost did when we brought a mouse into the house when we moved in a bunch of crap from the garage. I found a couple of them drooling over the little guy. We tried to save it, but, alas, were unsuccessful.
126: I think the trick lies in consulting the kid's opinion and taking it seriously, but keeping the decision for yourself and trying to help the kid understand the basis for the decision you make.
Re the various thoughts on ways of disposing of the mouse without letting the kid know what you've done: I really, strongly believe that deceiving a kid who's beyond three or four is almost always a mistake and that trying to conceal difficult or painful realities usually is. It tells the kid that you don't think they're capable of handling reality, but learning to handle reality is pretty much what the whole childhood thing is all about.
Get the little fucker a stuffed animal for Christ's sake.
Do you jerk off this mouse to gain utility credits, BTW?
Do you jerk off this mouse to gain utility credits
Do you still get utility credits if the animal is jerking you off simultaneously, or does that make it a wash?
The monkey gets credit for your utility, you get credit for the monkey's. So you end with no utility debt.
CrypticNed's comment in 64 reminded me of some of the procedures that the vets at UC Davis do.
You can get your cat a kidney transplant, though the owner is required to adopt the donating cat as well. I find this ethically disturbing, since the donor cat didn't exactly consent to the procedure. Neither did the donee for that matter.
Cat kidney transplants cost more than $10,000, and the life expectancy of a cat with a donated kidney is not great.
140: Damn Ogged, that would have been a much cheaper option for you *and* you'd have gotten a pet out of the deal.
140: For that matter, Micky can't offer informed consent for surgery either. An out!
Her fear of pickles is ruining her life (video).
126: Having once been the kid not being consulted on the viability of keeping or removing a leg (it stayed on -- went within 24 hours, though) let me vote for the not being consulted kid thing really really sucks whe you would have been quite capable of input.
This thread has compelled me to go buy some tasty snacks for Wreck.
Oh, I hear the plan was to tell me that morning before being prepped for surgery, so it wouldn't be a complete shock. It was an interesting conversation, when it fell out a year or so later.
oops, `year or so' should have been `week or so'
151: Not the leg. The fact that surgery was planned (& consented) if a something or other didn't happen by a certain date.
150: 11 or 12 (right around birthday)
I can't even imagine the thought process by which a parent would get to that decision.
I can't imagine having to decide when to amputate your 11-year-old kid's leg.
Wow. Although, I can see the argument for not giving a kid the voice -- choosing to amputate your own leg has got to be a horrendous position to be in, and if the amputation were medically necessary, it might be easier for the kid not to make it. (Or, on some level, the freedom of choice the kid gets is going to be an illusion -- if the kid refuses consent, at some point you override that rather than letting them die.)
But the whole informed consent thing for medical care is weird -- as a patient, you really aren't fully informed.
Am I understanding correctly that they were going to have your leg amputated without telling you first?
I can imagine the thought process: I'm the parent, this is a horrendous decision to have to make, I can barely bear it, how can I hand responsibility for this decision over to my child, whom I am supposed to protect, who is going to be scared and traumatized.
But gah. How awful all around.
156: Having been pretty close to traumatic events involving a kid that age is part of what makes it so mind-boggling to me. Kids are amazingly resilient if given appropriate appropriate love and support, which does not, IMO, include such things as unannounced amputations.
157, 159: It's possible to involve a kid in a decision without having him make it.
Oh, not telling the kid is fucked all the way up. But I could see, maybe, telling them that it wasn't their decision (I'm not sure that I'd do this, but it's not repugnant to me) to take the weight of the decision off them.
158: Not technically, but effectively. They told me they planned to tell me the night before, and surgery was scheduled (but cancelled). As LB says, it's not like they actually needed my consent. So I think the process was that a doctor comes to parents and says, if we don't see an improvement in 10 days (for example), we need to amputate your kids leg or risk of badthing is too high. Parents decide that having you worry about this for 10 days would really suck for you, so decide not to tell you until closer to the time. Eventually you get to the day before, and you'd have to tell the kid. But then the doctor says, we think it's responding, we're not going to need to amputate unless it gets worse again.
... a llittle while later, Mom is all `oh, I'm so relieved you didn't have to lose your leg'. Kid is all: `wtf?'
In this case it wasn't the decision -- retrospectively I would have decided the same thing. It was the assumptions behind it (and this was part of a larger pattern) that really, really pissed me off. You can even sort of see how a parent would decide to do that -- but beyond a really quite young age, it isn't ok to do it.
George Washington, is there anything more you can tell us about this that will relieve the nightmarishness? Your parents spent the next year apologising for the why they dealt with that and telling you all about the adventures of the good Long John Silver, right?
164: no, disease.
165: sorry, wish I could. Other than the fact that I didn't lose a leg, which all around is a pretty good outcome, I think. But no, that was one of a few nearly terminal blows in our relationship.
167 sounds wrong. I didn't mean that issue was a nearly terminal blow. I meant that it was one of a number of things which, taken all together, was nearly terminal.
Oh, man, I misunderstood your initial post, and thought you'd ended up losing the leg a day later. (Not that that effects the moral issues, I'm just glad you're all right.)
Oh, I thought 'went within 24 hours' meant the leg went regardless of what anybody wanted. Phew.
I am glad that I'm thinking about a lot of this stuff now, before my kid is old enough to land me in a tough ethical quandary.
thought you'd ended up losing the leg a day later
That's what I thought.
Probably depends on the age and maturity of a child. If the child is six, the wait-and-see attitude in 163 doesn't sound too bad. At fifteen it sounds awful. I can't even imagine.
Crap. I didn't mean to write unclearly, at all. Or to be overly dramatic. I was just reminded of the situation by a previous comment.
I guess the thing is, at this late stage (this was all 20+ years ago), the actual issues, both potential and realized, of that hospital stay are old news for me, and only comprised a couple of months time. The (similar) issues with parents went on much longer, although are also not current, and so seem larger to me.
Fuck your leg, george. This thread is about MY KID'S MOUSE.
No, seriously, I told PK I'd been rethinking, blah blah Micky's lived a long life, blah blah surgery wouldn't be fun, blah blah. He "needs time to think about it." Now that DaveL's given me something new to feel guilty about, i.e. having put PK in the position of making the decision himself, maybe I'll just tell him no fucking way and be done with it.
I feel the need to defend the vet. 'Twas me who asked him to explain all the options, blah blah; his initial response was basically along the lines of, 'well, maybe it's not cancer, you never know, let's keep an eye on it.' I'm kinda bad at taking a hint sometimes, and probably err in the direction of attributing to PK too much emotional maturity, but the reason the vet explained all this shit in front of me with PK present (and the actual money figures were presented in writing, not aloud) is because I asked him to. It simply didn't (and wouldn't) occur to me to ask PK to leave the room while the doctor was examining his mouse. I also traumatized the poor child by asking him if he wanted to be present while the vet looked at Squeaky's body (the vet having asked if I wanted to send PK out of the room), which he caught a glimpse of and then cried on the way home over "how something so cute could have become so gross."
On the up side, at least I'm getting a pretty good sense of what PK will resent me for later.
I'm getting a pretty good sense of what PK will resent me for later.
Oh, I think children pretty consistently surprise their parents with that one.
B, it is really great that you care this much. Poor PK. This can't be easy on him.
bitchphd: yeah, sorry, no intention to derail thread. Just got sucked into questions by being unclear at first.
Validate, empathize, swallow.
This would make a great t-shirt.
Now that DaveL's given me something new to feel guilty about
Oops, didn't mean to do that. You obviously know your own kid a whole lot better than we do, and I do think it's better to err on the side of crediting a kid with too much emotional maturity than too little, so don't change your thinking on my account.
Thanks, Cala. Honestly, I suspect he's less worried about it than I am: I just hate the idea of doing something irreversible that's going to make him either feel guilty for years or else feel like his beloved Mama doesn't understand his feelings. Probably neither one is the case, but I have my own childhood pet traumas that I never really got over.
I really want to know which of us had parents planning to amputate their leg at 15. Damn whoever came up with the anonymous presidents idea.
Of course, the truly Machiavellian solution is to take the mouse in to be euthanised, and tell PK it died on the operating table.
And keep PK's fifty bucks, obviously.
178: I was joking. Traumatic lingering resentment over nearly amputated limbs is more important than speculative potential trauma about mice dying at the end of their natural life spans.
180: No, I think you've got a good point, and I honestly *do* suspect that I sometimes overexplain to PK. Someday he'll hate me for having put way too much pressure on him at a young age, or something.
179: with "masturbate, masturbate, cry, masturbate" on the back?
Resentment is weird and stupid and even your well-adjusted kids. I was resenting my mother last week because she took my youngest sister to a nice beauty salon to have her hair highlighted, when not ten years ago, when I had ambitions to go to something besides a) supercuts where b) the stylist didn't begin by saying how sorry she felt for me with my ugly hair, I was told that I was too concerned with vanity. Serious WTF-land.
Happy for my baby sister that my parents seem not to be insane any more, but christ, I sort of wish I could have had her high school experience. What did getting high grades get me? Grad school. What does slacking off get her? Everything else.
So, you see, parents, resentment isn't rational, so don't worry about it, because we'll find ways to resent you when you were actual being normal people.
But the whole informed consent thing for medical care is weird -- as a patient, you really aren't fully informed.
And, quite possibly, neither are the medical practitioners.
Sure. What I was thinking of was childbirth (at this point my major contact with hospitals). I had a moderately weird birth with Sally, which involved in the middle being asked if I wanted a C-section or to go ahead vaginally. I passed on the C-section, figuring that if both options were being presented as reasonable alternatives, why not skip the abdominal surgery. But that wasn't an informed decision -- I was guessing at the OB's estimation of the odds, and figuring that he'd be selling the C harder if he thought it were really risky to go ahead without it. (And also relying on the midwife to be strongly advising the C if it were necessary).
I 'made the decision', but the OB had all the informational cards. My decision wasn't fully informed, and the OB could have flipped it at will by presenting the options differently. There's no real way around that, but it complicates the narrative of patient autonomy we get told these days.
183: My kid is reaching the uncomfortable point where there's more filtering between what's going on in his head and what he'll tell me about, which is forcing me to realize that I have absolutely no control over which bits of his childhood will seem particularly significant when he looks back on them 20 years from now.
Am I understanding correctly that they were going to have your leg amputated without telling you first?
"Hey! Mom! I keep falling over!"
185: I had terrible grades and dropped out ... but still got grad school. Don't know if that helps.
On the other hand, neither really had anything really to do with my parents.
"I just hate the idea of doing something irreversible that's going to make him either feel guilty for years or else feel like his beloved Mama doesn't understand his feelings."
Well, you'll manage that eventually. Everyone does! On the other hand, the odds are neither you nor PK will realize it at the time, so that's nicer.
183: How could you expect to control something like that? I can see how the realization could be a bit uncomfortable.
Hmm. I would have thought that a sensible consultancy ethic would be to present only one recommendation at a time: the best recommendation. Which would not preclude your right to refuse treatment or to ask about alternatives.
But a choice? No fun. Choice is bad enough in everyday life. I came across a great lunchtime cafe a few years ago. It offered only two kinds of sandwich: cheese or ham (both were excellent). Sadly, it had to close.
Also, the Monty Hall problem comes to mind. So you should have chosen the C-section.
194: you are suggesting a 1/3 chance of delivery the way she went?
185: This is true, but if he resents me for frivolous shit like not having had name-brand clothing I'll feel bad about having raised a selfish brat; if for genuine conflict of interest issues like his being a single child or not home-schooling him (which he currently keeps saying I should do), I'll feel sad for him, but not guilty. Traumatizing a kid about something he really loves is something I'm really hoping I can manage not to do.
Given that everything turned out okay, I'm just as happy to have skipped the abdominal surgery. And I can't blame the doctor for tossing the decision in my lap -- it was pretty weird. Sally turned breech during labor; if she'd been known to have been breech beforehand, any doctor in NY would have required a scheduled C. As it was, she wasn't known to be breech until labor was quite advanced, at which point the doc had to, I think, offer the C because it was the conventional standard of care, but didn't think it was necessary because everything was going fine.
But I'm mindreading -- I don't know what was going on in his head. Only met the man that one time.
because everything was going fine
LB, I think we both know the reason for this.
I'm not sure what your implication is, but am reminded of perhaps the least immediately pleasing compliment I ever recieved, from a midwife at a prenatal exam: "Oh, you're not going to have any trouble, you could drive a bus through there."
(Note to the prurient-minded (oh, who am I kidding, everyone): She was talking about bone structure, not soft tissue anatomy.)
It's almost as if you think "the prurient-minded" and "everyone" define two different groups.
Part of me is kinda charmed, though, that the midwife thought that was complimentary. It must be nice to have a job that so thoroughly recalibrates your sensibilities about these things.
B, he'll probably forget about the mouse ('what was his name? Squicky? Meeky?') because he will be traumatized by his hair. See? No worries. Seriously, what's going to stick with him is his mama helping when his mouse got old.
205: Eh, the hair is easily changed. He'll resent you for not getting him circumcised.
That can also be changed (though, granted, not as easily). The reverse, not so much.
206: I'm going to tell you this because it will make you and Ogged so very, very happy. The doc expressed polite disappointment that I "haven't been retracting PK's foreskin" and gave us a referral to a urologist for phimosis.
I told Mr. B. that it is his job to teach PK how to retract his foreskin because that's just a line I'm not willing to cross.
Does "phimosis" mean yanking a stuck foreskin loose? Because I remembering cowering in the corner for much of a day at about age 5 after having that done, despite being circumcised. Not pleasant.
Honestly B, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about circumcision. I just figured it would be easier not to have to explain to my boys why they didn't look like Dad.
Phimosis means tight foreskin. I'm not convinced my pediatrician is right about this being a problem at PK's age: Mr. B. doesn't think it is, and from what I've read a decent percentage of kids have it up to puberty, by which point they've presumably managed to stretch the thing plenty all on their own.
210: "Because grandma had the doctors cut the tip of my penis off, but I wouldn't let her get anywhere near you."
209: Yeah, not doing that. Either PK learns to wriggle it loose all on his own, carefully, or we go for steroid cream or circumcision.
Hey! It's the same as the mouse dilemma: monitor while leaving it be or go for expensive and possibly dangerous surgery! Maybe if I put it to PK like *that*--"do you want to have surgery on your penis? No? Well then what makes you think Micky wants surgery?"--the problem will be solved!
213: Somehow it always comes back to mouse orgasms in the end.
You're just tempting fate with that analogy. He'll decide both that he wants penis surgery and mouse surgery and that Micky should be circumcised, too.
Micky's a girl. And if the kid wants to be circumcised, eh. It's not my dick.
Maybe what I'll have to answer for is discussing his childhood penis on the internets.
Better watch out with 213 - would be a shame for him to turn into a christian scientist. "Sure, you say these pills will make me stop coughing, but next thing I know you'll be going at my penis with a scalpel!"
I find it incredible that a doctor should suggest that *you* (or Mr B) should be retracting PK's foreskin. Wonder how many he's had to deal with? If PK can pull it out (not back), that's probably enough for now.
The doc expressed polite disappointment that I "haven't been retracting PK's foreskin" and gave us a referral to a urologist for phimosis.
Bwahahahaha.
I have to admit that Newt is uncircumcised, and I have firmly delegated any necessary foreskin maintenance to Buck -- I don't need to go there. (I find it hard to believe that there's anything all that unintuitive, given that people managed for hundreds of thousands of years before G-d spoke to Abraham on the subject.)
Sheesh - what's so weird about teaching a kid to pull his foreskin back and learn how to clean the apparatus? We teach them to wipes their butts, brush their teeth, etc.
And if one's son's father is an uptight twit who can't even say the word "masturbate" without going bright red and twitching, well, guess who gets to discuss why we don't play with our penises in public...
219: Well, the doc *is* Jewish....
223: Primarily his age. He's old enough now that dropping his pants so the doc can grope his testicles for hernias embarrasses him. I'm not going to try to push the "let mama touch your penis, honey" thing.
But has the mouse ever performed the Heimlich?
Mice aren't ass-kissers the way dogs are.
Sheesh - what's so weird about teaching a kid to pull his foreskin back and learn how to clean the apparatus?
Well, because it doesn't separate at a particular age, so you shouldn't be teaching them to retract the foreskin in case it doesn't yet - when it's possible, they'll discover that for themselves, and then you can tell them to keep it clean.
people managed for hundreds of thousands of years before G-d spoke to Abraham on the subject
And plenty of people who didn't care what Abraham said have managed in the thousands (?) of years since then!
Three is a trend
"Breaking at 7! Moms and their sons' foreskins: the untold story."