When I originally moved to SF I was continually shocked by the amazing views I'd come upon, just randomly. If it had been the era of cameraphones I would have no doubt been contributing to boring-ass flickr pool upon boring-ass flickr pool.

The mountain west can probably hold its own, though.

You live here?

Not anymore, no. I did 97-01. I've been steadily moving south since then.

Ah.

Nice place, though.

Speaking of "move along", this is interesting. Also, depressing.

For the last couple years I was there I lived on Treasure Island; it was a form of view fatigue.

Fourth of July, I remember, we could see about eight fireworks displays simultaneously. If only it had ever been warmer than 60 degrees.

I've been steadily moving south since then

Have you gotten past Daly City yet?

8: Stopped dead at Colma.

Yes, read the article in 6. It's really something.

I hung out for six weeks or so at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences last summer and would walk in that way in the mornings from the dump we were living in on the Stanford campus. If you want a less pastoral but easily as spectacular kind of view, you should come out to Arizona sometime.

Here's something typical, and here's something atypical but cool.

I didn't read the whole article but the parts I did read seemed kind of corny. I mean talented performers do very well in some subway stations in NYC and I'm assuming in DC as well. It seems totally plausible to me that this is a combination of (1) a different skill-set is important for subway musician as opposed to concert hall musician and (2) morning commute is not prime time for subway musicians -- evening commute is much better. The choice of station plays into it too -- is there any mention of whether musicians normally perform at the spot that was selected?

The choice of station plays into it too -- is there any mention of whether musicians normally perform at the spot that was selected?

Yes, that's addressed at length. One woman who works there says he was the first guy in a while who didn't inspire her to think she should call the cops.

Now that you mention it, I agree that the whole idea was wasted by doing it during the morning commute. Geez! Literally, wasted. It would have made so much more of a difference.

Err, that should be "it would have made such a difference". No need for the second derivative there.

Thanks for the clarification -- my parsing apparatus was going a little haywire on that.

BTW on the subject of grammatical tensors, can anyone give me an actual source for this? It's such a great example for certain conversational purposes, but I haven't mentioned it because I don't know if it's true.

I think it would have been hard not to stop and at least ask where he'd learned to play. I haven't played in a formal orchestra since high school, but even to my rusty ear that guy was far and away not your average performer.

What's the piece being played at the beginning of the second video?

Nevermind, got it.

I love the cultural hero guy, standing around at the pillar, like, "why don't people get this?"

I think they should redo the experiment with Robert Fripp on guitar, see if anybody punches him.

Or with Yoko Ono, possibly.

It's funny, I was just reading the same WaPo article (because TPM linked it and Sopranos and Entourage finished), and was then thinking that it might make good conversation fodder here.

A year or so ago we visited some friends who live right next to there, and we went for a run around those trails. It really is beautiful.

My gosh. Hadn't watched the second video. He really is a hell of a violinist, isn't he.

I think it would have been hard not to stop and at least ask where he'd learned to play.

I think for me, that would be overwhelmed by the feeling of "Oh the sadness, what a talent, reduced to busking."

So, the article's view is that people are doing something wrong because they place too high a priority on not being late for work, right?

Or, more charitably, people should leave themselves some time at the margins so that if they happen upon beauty they have the option of pausing to enjoy it?

Yes, that's right.

The article's point is also that people aren't particularly good at recognising beauty when it isn't presented to them as Beauty.

As far as I can tell, the article's conclusions fly in the face of cognitive psychology's current understanding of how attentional focus works, but w/e.

28: Or that people claiming to recognize beauty when it is presented to them are actually just ponces putting on airs, and we shouldn't feel bad making fun of them. (I should probably note that I haven't read the article, so this might be a slight misconstrual of it. But if so, I have misconstrued it into a better, more interesting article.)

So I left 26 fairly early in my read through the article, and now that I'm at the end and seeing something like 25 said more explicitly, I think it's a pretty good article, in the sense that the early parts lead you logically to the conclusion.

I liked the article, though it was a bit overwritten, but I agree with 13's #1. I thought the Post people came off as awfully naive. I adore street musicians, especially horn players, but a) it's not unusual for there to be professional-quality musicans where I commute, and b) I think it's a stretch to say that people aren't recognizing beauty because they aren't stopping to look, listen, or pay money.

(Also, Ava Maria is not well known? Wha?)

If you want a less pastoral but easily as spectacular kind of view, you should come out to Arizona sometime.

The desert southwest is gorgeous, though I think I've only driven through a bit of Arizona.

33: when we lived in Arizona the skies always had little fluffy clouds in them. And they were long and clear and there were lots of stars at night. And when it would rain they would all turn . . . they were beautiful, the most beautiful skies as a matter of fact. The sunsets were purple and red and yellow and... on fire. And the clouds would catch the colors everywhere. That's unique, 'cause I used to look at them all the time. You don't see that. You might still see it, in the desert.

17 - Here's the totally unhelpful backstory: I was preparing worksheets for some class I was TAing, and found a website with a little "press here for math quotes!" button, and sat there pressing it for like a half-hour, and it was in that.

So, here's a math-version, /a> but I don't know about a historical source.

Goddamnit, that's the second time I've misremembered how to make a link.

34: Yeah, the evening and night sky here is amazing. It wasn't until I moved to AZ that I understood that the Milky Way was this big object in the sky that you could actually see. Here's a nice shot.

The Orb notwithstanding, btw.

Wow, that's pretty cool.

For the last couple years I was there I lived on Treasure Island; it was a form of view fatigue.

I got the same thing from my first place in the Bay Area, renting a room in a house on the west side of Albany Hill. Watching the fog march across the Bay, and seeing Sutro Tower poke out above the City, never got old, though.

28: That's what it's going for, but it misses. For the average, non-musically trained commuter, there's probably not a lot of difference between "pretty good violinist" and "prodigy"; even if they weren't wrapped up in getting to work, most of them wouldn't have the skill necessary to realize that it wasn't just a good violinist but a top one.

So what you'd need to do is get a group of those cranky audiophiles somehow, and watch them on their commutes (on days when they're not running late and have had their coffee.)

Audiophiles are notoriously defensive and typically have two or three more excuses in their back pocket, should such a situation arise.

At the risk of sounding like I am on a retainer from the State Tourism Board I will just add that one of the coolest things to do on a visit to Tucson is to sign up for the nighttime observation program at the Kitt Peak National Observatory, which is perched on top of a mountain about an hour outside of town. You get some food, a tour of the night sky by enthusiastic astronomers with the world's coolest laser pointers (powerful ones with fully visible beams that can pick out constellations by tracing the pattern in the sky), a strong pair of binoculars to look through, and then at the end a few turns looking through a big telescope.

Even better (though I haven't done this) you can get on the waitlist for the Advanced Program, where you stay the whole night in charge of a big-ass telescope and imaging hardware (with a tech to help you), and you get to point it at whatever stuff in the sky you like best and take some pictures.

If you can only go during the day, you can still look at the giant solar telescope and (if the guy running it is nice) see a big projected image of the sun.

I don't have a good image to back this up, and I don't have time to Flickr-find one, but:

I was actually disappointed by O's pics, because I was expecting something meaningfully comparable to Chicago. I mean, yes, it's lovely that Stanford has this spectacular nature reserve thingy right near SF, but, really, it's a place apart.

Whereas, here in Pittsburgh, gorgeous, green views are a dime a dozen. Downtown itself is surrounded by green hillsides, and the topography (plus a good ca. 1900 parks system) has created wild pockets throughout.

Thus, this is a five minute walk from this. There are a number of places within city limits that feel, quite literally, like some hollow in West Virginia (in the good sense). And as for crazy hills (I'm looking at you, SF), this is reputedly the steepest street (37%) anywhere in America.

No point, really. Just representin'.

Sigh. I tried for a long time to fight the fact that the last place I lived was ass-ugly, because I thought it was shallow to care so much about what the landscape looked like.

But no. It isn't. Most people have just, sadly, had their taste ruined by growing up somewhere that isn't the western U.S.

but, really, it's a place apart

Not sure what you mean by this.

45: Not clear to me how someone whoe prefers a single season landscape can even talk about natural beauty.

Winter spring summer fall = 4X the beauty.

46: Unless I'm really misreading this place, is it a 5 minute walk from urban density? I'm seeing a lot of open landscape, and a distant picture of some unpleasantness (Stanford campus? Never been). If this is in the heart of urbanity, then I take it back.

The idea that the west has but one season is held only by those who are insensitive to subtlety. Them, and the Puritans who think there's something wrong with not freezing your ass off half the year.

45: Ahh, having moved from Treasure Island to Los Angeles, I'm not one to claim a position of aesthetic superiority. What a view! Brownish and undifferentiated!

On the other hand I've never seen quite so remarkable an orange color as LA sky during a wildfire. Made me feel like I'd just met an alien.

These nature pics are all very nice, but have any of you taken a cat picture that was so cute it was awarded two "Kitty Crowns of Greatness"?

is it a 5 minute walk from urban density?

It's about a five minute drive from downtown Palo Alto, but part of my point was that there are views like this (not just like this, but spectacular) all over the place here.

I live near a neat river that people tube and kayak down. It has cypress trees. And a baseball diamond and barbecue grills and lots of Tejano music.

49: This was actually pointed squarely at you, B. I know that (parts of) the West have multiple seasons. But what you've praised about it is the monoseason.

I live between two neat rivers, and some people do kayak in them, but it's rare. It does not, to my knowledge have cypress trees.

what parts of the west don't have differentiated seasons? Even Death Valley has a (momentary) rainy season.

Also, best views in the continental US: top of going to the sun road in glacier national park STEEL CAGE MATCH vs. CA 396 headed south from Mono Lake towards Bishop at dawn in the summertime.

Being thrilled that I'm not freezing my ass off in two feet of snow /= monoseason.

But they're still neat? Then it's okay.

52: I thought it was about the nature more than the views per se.

But I stand by my point that views here are cheap, to the point where more than one shitty neighborhood has city views that would be worth millions elsewhere, but here, no one can be bothered to gentrify them.

Maybe I'll drive around with a camera later this week to prove my point.

50: Depends what part of LA you're in. There are pretty big green swaths in the metro area; I got lost in one of 'em last week, actually.

Speaking of SoCal aesthetics, I was just marvelling today at how gorgeous the drive between Ventura and Ojai is, as it happens.

CA 396

395?

Both the Hudson and East rivers are neat, yes.

59: There's such a thing as ugly nature. Like scrubby-ass upstate NY in late winter. Ugh.

It sounds like New York, but you say there's no cypress trees...give me a moment...

56: "momentary" =/= "season"

Look, I lived in Miami for 7 years - I know whereof I speak. "Rainy season" and "dry season" don't mean shit. It all looks about the same all year round. There's subtlety, and there's denial.

I'm not judging. I'm just saying.

And I'm bidding a roof job (for a guy who's putting in a roof deck to watch fireworks) in 11.5 hours, so I gotta go. Forget I said anything.

I agree with JRoth. Some of the best views in Pittsburgh belong to undergraduates paying $900 a month for a 5-bedroom house on Frazier or Ward Street in South Oakland, and they can sit out on their porches and look over a precipitous drop over Second Avenue, the river, and the rest, and see a ginormous clock and the South Side Slopes neighborhood which itself is full of dilapidated 1920s-immigrant-steel-worker housing, streets which are actually staircases, and great views of downtown.

64: Wait, insofar as you're actually confused it's because I'm a poor observer of nature (oh, the irony, re: violin article). If there are Cyrpress trees in my vicinity, it's totally possible that I've missed them.

61: Uh oh, I wasn't supposed to let on about 396. It runs exactly parallel to 395, about a half mile away, carefully disguised by foliage. It was designed by the army in the fifties as an alternate escape route in case of nuclear calamity.

Or, okay, I meant 395 and tried to cover up my typo by being a giant nerd. Take your pick.

67: oh, you're giving me too much credit. I'm wouldn't think there's be any cypress trees up there either, I was just trying to be a dim bulb about putting the facts together.

So, are there barbecue grills? Because you say these rivers are "neat".

Yeah, it's 395 that goes down the Antelope Valley. Never been down towards Bishop, but the view you get of the valley coming through Monitor Pass on Highway 89 is pretty spectacular.

60: Oh, I love e.g. the San Gabriels. But you have to be, what, fifty feet away to see them clearly?

I don't know if you've ever driven through Riverside on a clear winter day after a rain, but it's completely revelatory. You think to yourself, "damn, this would be a mighty nice place to live."

Also, I'm certainly not talking about SoCal in general, just LA. Where I live now is lousy with natural beauty.

65: Yeah, the climate in Miami is exactly like the climate on the west coast. 3000 miles away.

What steep street is that, 44?

This one is probably steeper, but unfortunately cars cannot drive on it, although it has street signs and everything.

In recent years, [East River Park] has been the site of extensive renovations, including 1994 improvements to the basketball court, playground, and picnic area, and seawall. Renovation continued in 1996, when Parks celebrated the opening of the 10th Street comfort station, funded through the efforts of City Council Members Antonio Pagan and Kathryn Freed, with a First Flush ceremony. Commissioner Stern performed a ceremonial flush of the men's room toilet and cut an inaugural toilet paper ribbon.

395 is awesome.

Ok, 320 comments to go.

72: Uh.... except for the humidity and the hurricanes, you mean?

72: Who said anything about climate? I'm talking about foliage.

73: Canton Avenue in Beechview. Aside from the hilarious fact that it's called "avenue", it has - no shit - Do Not Enter signs top and bottom. It is entirely unclear how residents cope with winter.

My wife still tells tales of trying to navigate Pittsburgh with a map that would show a street connecting two locations separated by 200 horizontal and 100 vertical feet. And, legally, that street is there....

78: Yes. I hear Miami is well known for its pine forests, its broad, dry grasslands, and its high desert.

Oh, and the rolling oak forest hills. They've got a lot of those in Florida, too.

Foilage! We can read about foilage at the libary!

It's green year round in California. Really. All that grass, when it burns in the fall, as it occasionally does, is green when it burns and burns a green flame.

California is beautiful until it cracks off of the continent and slides into the Pacific.

That'll still be profound, though.

83: What, you don't like to look at the ocean?

From above, sure.

Moral relativist.

See, that's why Ogged is so keen on swimming. He's preparing for the apocalypse.

Whereas in places that have, say, tornadoes, well--good luck learning to fly.

But you might land in Oz! We're all more comfortable with the natural disasters we grew up with, I guess. Hurricanes don't bother me much, see, because they give lots of advance notice. I like that is a disaster.

*in* a disaster.

Yeah, I prefer disasters that come once in a blue moon, instead of every damn year.

91: So how come when you say that everybody nods, but when I say that every blogger in New Orleans is out for blood?

The photos in 44 are pretty unremarkable. Nice, but lots of things are nice.

92: Are you kidding? No one here ever agrees with me.

That plus those New Orleans people are crazy from the heat and the spinning air.

I actually think there are better views in the Bay Area from SF, where it might be possible to catch a glimpse of urban density down some long forgotten side street, or from the Berkeley/Oakland hills than from the Peninsula/South Bay, but that's probably just a matter of taste.

And the tits! Don't forget the tits!

96 to 94. Or 95, if you like.

93: That's why I put a great big disclaimer on them - they're the result of a whopping 20 seconds of Flickr searching. I actually have a more noteworthy example on my hard drive, but I don't have time to upload it (see 65).

But my point was that I found O's pictures unremarkable, and he had to travel to get to them. Well, obviously, if you travel to the country, you'll get some nice countryside pics. I understand his point in 52 that such views are common there, but mine was simply that the same is true here.

PS - I've been to SF - I understand what the views are like. Hence, my lack of impressment. Not that they're not nice. But, as someone said, lots of things are nice.

Lot of nice hikes in the mountains around L.A. Most people, even a lot of the locals, don't realize what's there. Especially in places like Arcadia, Pasadena, etc. that are right next to the San Gabriels. This hike was local for me growing up. Took my kids on it a couple weeks ago while I was down visiting my parents.

Is the point of 79 and 80 that Miami/Southern Fla. is aesthetically dull? That the Everglades are, what, like a fucking lawn?

My point about seasons is that places where seasonal change is minimal (and yes, if your leaves are on the trees 365 days, that's minimal. Brown grass - whoop-de-fucking-doo) are less aesthetically interesting to me. Any given view might be amazing, but as a whole, I like to see the annual cycle. I only brought up Miami to note that I've lived in a place where seasonal change is more ebb and flow and less life and death, so I get it, even if the specifics are different.

De gustibus, etc. Goodnight, all.

I think they should redo the experiment with Robert Fripp on guitar, see if anybody punches him.

He should play while the Gang of Four gets a haircut.

I love a man with his hair neatly trimmed so as to not touch his uniform.

100: No, it's that the two aren't the same. I have no doubt I'd find Florida lovely if I were ever there. But you "four seasons!" people are so annoying.

But you "four seasons!" people are so annoying.

This L.A. boy could definitely use a little less variation in weather. Utah's nice for climbing and fishing and all, but fuck snow and the cloud it rode in on.

I'm with you, Gswift. Although one of the most beautiful western sights *I've* ever seen was driving into Salt Lake from the west on I-80 with a huge full moon rising above the mountains. Salt flats, skyline, mountains, moon. Gorgeous.

Brown grass - whoop-de-fucking-doo

Here's some brown grass for ya.

Ogged's view of the Stanford dish is pretty unremarkable in terms of landscape -- it looks like about half of the more boring rural bits of the UK.

It's hard to find good photos of my area of Scotland on Flickr. Lots of photos of further North. However, these are OK:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/flyingpie/326452942/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/garyjd/85376690/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zosofoto/159870955/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightbody/251758684/
[a place I used to work]

106: Hey, it was eb in 82 bragging about how brown the grass gets before it ignites. That middle link is pretty stunning. The other two are between dull and repellent.

California: I'm just not that into you.

(you're welcome for what I'm doing to keep down property values)

You have an odd definition of bragging. Commenting here is such a waste of time.

California: I'm just not that into you.

Even though I call New York home now, every time I go back to California I am struck by how beautiful it is. I was in the Bay Area two weeks ago for business and it was just stunning. I delayed my flight back a day and drove up through the valley along the Sacramento River and then up into the Sierras, to visit my sister. It made me wonder what the heck I was doing living in New York.

I have to go back this week for a couple of days. I am looking forward to it.

And the hills are golden in the summer, not brown!

It made me wonder what the heck I was doing living in New York.

You do not spend enough time in the Hudson valley, which is lovely in a way directly comparable to the loveliness of Northern California. And much easier to get to.

110: I love New York, both the concrete and the surrounding country, but you're right about California. Every time I go out there I'm stunned at just how pretty it all is.

Then I remember the earthquakes and mudslides and wildfires and mountain lion attacks and the fact that most of the population of the state lives in various deserts that are only livable through incredible and probably unsustainable feats of water transportation, and remain happy to live in an inhabitable portion of the country.

112: There is that.

earthquakes and mudslides and wildfires and mountain lion attacks

But you know these are way overblown as risks (of course this means the Big One is about to level the building I'm in, but...). Not very many people live in wildfire/mudslide zones, and the ones who do have knowingly taken on the risk. In the nearly eight years I've been out here, I've felt one minor earthquake and seen (from my car) one mountain lion (in a state park).

The water is a genuine problem.

way overblown as risks

I'm just giving the Californians a hard time. I'm sure very few of you are devoured by pumas in any given week.

114 gets it right. Yes, water is a problem, but more in Southern California. In the Sacramento Valley, where I was raised, flood control is the bigger concern.

Canals are not a super-high-tech recent innovation, really.

flood control is the bigger concern.

Right, my understanding from Megan is that there is the potential for very bad flood-related things to happen to Sacramento. Like I said, the whole state is uninhabitable. Lovely, but uninhabitable.

Certainly on the scale, and in the style it's inhabited now.

Most people have just, sadly, had their taste ruined by growing up somewhere that isn't the western U.S. where I live now.

my understanding from Megan is that there is the potential for very bad flood-related things to happen to Sacramento.

As there has ever been. I was particularly reminded of this when I was driving along the Sacramento River on my recent visit. The State Highway I was on goes on top of the levee protecting the surrounding farmland from the river. Without that levee, a lot of those farms would be under water.

114: Technically, pretty much any hill in southern California is a potential wildfire zone.

Earthquake-wise, anybody living on a sandy hillside is probably going to be in trouble when a big one hits.

In terms of landslides (actual name: debris flows. Hah!) there's some pretty good mitigation in place, but people up in the hills in Altadena and the like are certainly at some significant risk for giant boulders crashing through their homes.

Why what a handy opportunity to recommend The Control of Nature by John McPhee! Greatest scary book I've ever read, especially with the remarkably prescient middle section about New Orleans.

119: I think that's the key issue. Pretty much anywhere is habitable with some combination of low density/thoughtful planning.

Not that we ever do that in this country.

At least in California it's never potentially deadly to simply walk around outside for an hour in normal weather conditions. More dangerous for rich homeowners, safer for the homeless. C'est las vie.

potentially deadly to simply walk around outside for an hour in normal weather conditions.

You mean, like, without a winter coat on?

between dull and repellent.

Like I said: some people just don't understand subtle beauty. I honestly think that the brown hills are gorgeous.

125: It can be beautiful, yes. You're `the west' seems to mostly refer to the southern half. I think the NW is more beautiful, all told.

Most people have just, sadly, had their taste ruined by growing up somewhere that isn't the western U.S. where I live now.

s/b "where I grew up and am glad to be back to." Anyway, what's wrong with genuinely loving a place and thinking of it as home?

Stopped dead at Colma

Sifu, I'm not sure the Easterners get the joke.

you're welcome for what I'm doing to keep down property values

Our property values are doing just fine without you haters. And feel free to keep whining about your precious "four seasons," as long as you don't actually live in California, in which case we reserve the right to boot your ungrateful ass out.

Mike Davis's "Ecology of Fear" has a lot of nice LA disaster stuff.

126: I lived in Seattle for 10 years; loved it, too. Could have stayed forever. Montana, Wyoming: beautiful. It's just that now I live in SoCal, and my family's from the SW for way back, and so I know and love that part of the country well.

I'd rather be in San Francisco during an earthquake than New York City. Did you know New York rests on an active faultline? There have been two 5-magnitudue earthquakes in the last century. They say that a 6-magnitude earthquake is a 600-year event. There has not been a 6-magnitude earthquake in the New York area since colonization.

There was a little earthquake in NYC Thanksgiving Day 1988 or 1989. Very surprising.

124: "walk around" s/b "nap"

128: It was only meant for you.

This part of North Carolina was a lot prettier before everybody started moving here and developers began throwing up new neighborhoods as fast as humanly possible. So different from the Triangle of my childhood. This time of year, however, what with the dogwoods, wisteria, redbuds, and azaleas in riotous bloom, is still gorgeous. So much color everywhere!

Why what a handy opportunity to recommend The Control of Nature by John McPhee! Greatest scary book I've ever read, especially with the remarkably prescient middle section about New Orleans.

I second Beefo Meaty's recommendation.

San Francisco has four seasons: Rainy, Nice, Foggy, and Nice. What's not to love?

I can see how Rainy might be a drag.

You people don't know what rain is ...

The wettest parts of Scotland experiences an average of 250 days of rain per year, whereas the driest parts only experience an average of about 150 days of rain per year.

[http://www.scotland.com/travel/climate/]

Christ, no wonder Scots are grumpy.

128: Since SB's joke-explaining blog seems to be down, we'll have to settle for Wikipedia.

I was on the Isle of Skye once in July. At 8 in the morning I was wearing a long coat with a winter liner and gratefully thinking of the continual mist as "dry." ttaM is lucky I didn't right then adopt a fake accent and apply for residency.

139: Ah, but (ime) the rain in Scotland is much like that in Seattle. Basically it just means that the air is really damp (and your skin is great).

re: 143

Nah, where I'm from it constantly pissed heavy rain for about 100-150 days a year -- I mean 'arrrgh, my skull is hurting' sort of rain. The rest of the time it was the damp air stuff you mention [we call it 'smirr'].

re: 40

Yeah, as has already been remarked by others on other threads, the weather is one reason Scots are so keen on going out and finding warm places to pwn (sorry, 'colonize').

Okay, constant heavy rain does kinda suck. Though the massive midwestern thunderstorm type heavy rain is pretty cool, as long as you're not caught out in it.

the rain in Scotland is much like that in Seattle

If ttaM's numbers and the numbers I just looked up for Seattle are accurate, Seattle would be one of the driest parts of Scotland.

Rainy is a drag, and I'll have to concede that ttaM's got it worse than we do in the PacNW. We get pissed on most of the year, but summer here is awesomely awesome (please don't tell any Californians about that). Plus, we have this nice wee park.

Also this one, which really was breathtakingly beautiful when I visited.

Summer is awesomely awesome when it's summery. Rain on the 4th does tend to kind of suck, though, you have to admit.

For some definitions of "summery," perhaps. I mostly hate summers in NC.

All these great places to live, how bout some contrast? Never move to Michigan.

I was depressed from January till June every year I lived in Michigan. Goddamn, but that state is gray and colorless and depressing during those months. They say it's the cloudiest state in the union, worse than the northwest.

The lake effect doesn't bring much snow to eastern Michigan, either. God it's horrible. Fall was pretty though.

Thesis: That which is east of the Mississippi river is objectively worse than that which is west of the Mississippi river.

150: Seattle summery.

Yeah, Michigan would be tough. I seem to remember finding it pretty while driving through at some point, but I can't remember when the hell that was.

Maybe what I'm remembering is that after Michigan, Minnesota seems even lovelier by contrast.

Thesis: That which is east of the Mississippi river is objectively worse than that which is west of the Mississippi river.

Been to Amarillo lately?

How about: Thesis: That which is east of the Rockies is objectively uglier than that which is west of the Rockies.

What Apo said. I moved out here from Vermont, where like most of the East Coast, 'summery' means hot and humid. We have a Mediterranean climate here, so it's basically blissfully warm and dry for four months. People here typically don't even have screens on their windows, there are so few mosquitos -- suck on that, Easterners.

152 is true; 154 is truer. Taken in bulk, of course: there are quite pretty things in the east. A few.

People, I thought you all were liberals (except Idealist). The East is different from the West, and every ecosystem has its own beauty. All of them but West Texas and Michigan, apparently.

154: 'Rockies' s/b 'Cascades/Sierras'

Truest!

All these "Vague thing A > Vague thing B" opinions are boring. I've lived in Pennsylvania all my life, and am always impressed by unimpressive things there, while visiting any other place quickly seems to get old. It's human nature.

157: The east no longer has an ecosystem.

What y'all have instead is mass transit, which admittedly has certain advantages. But prettiness isn't one of them.

Thesis: Everyone should leave the ridiculous thesis-making to me.

All of them but West Texas and Michigan, apparently.

And there's something creative and romantic about the colorless monotony of these spots in their worst-of-timesness, but I'm glad I don't live there.

No place with such a long coastline really has "colorless monotony". "Michigan" s/b "Indiana".

All of them but West Texas

El Paso is home to the austerely beautiful Franklin Mountains State Park, the largest 'urban' park in the country. El Paso itself, however, is objectively unpleasant.

157- of course every ecosystem has its own beauty. As does every human. Doesn't mean they're all equally beautiful.

How about the interior of Michigan, then? And I really ought to qualify, between January and June.

I mean, I'm happy to hate on Indiana, or really any of the Ohio valley, but I have a bone to pick with Michigan.

Mike Davis's "Ecology of Fear" has a lot of nice LA disaster stuff.

Fuck a bunch of Mike Davis. City of Quartz pissed me off even before I found out he'd made up a bunch of stuff in it.

People, I thought you all were liberals (except Idealist). The East is different from the West, and every ecosystem has its own beauty. All of them but West Texas and Michigan, apparently.

The geographic equivalent of moral relativism!

More seriously, of course they are different and there is something good to say about almost anyplace. And, as has been noted above, there always is something special about home.

My first wife was the daughter of very poor farmers who lived in the panhandle of Texas (she was born in a shack in a cotton field--we are talking poor dirt farmers). When her mother got old (after we divorced, thankfully) she had her mother move out of the falling-down farmhouse she lived in to California to live with her. He mother apparently did not like it much. "All those trees," she would complain. So home is special for everyone. [but 165 is still right]

Also, Pittsburgh is a very beautiful city, albeit one where 'partly clahhhdy' counts as a sunny day. And it is hillier than San Francisco. I'm not a big fan of winter, but there's something to be said for a gorgeous autumn and actually having a springtime.

And, you know, being able to afford housing. That's not so much the climate, obviously, but the 'great views' in some places are inexpensive. California's gorgeous, but I wouldn't be able to afford to live in the pretty areas.

Also? The Bay? Very humid. Is it hellish in the summer?

insert an Area up there.

132: Or Boston, which both architecturally and in terms of ground quality is really poorly-suited for withstanding earthquakes. It would take a much smaller earthquake to have much more serious widespread damage than, say, Loma Prieta. It looked horrible on TV, but most of the death-causing damage from Loma Prieta was in 3 or 4 areas. Imagine what the Marina would have looked like if the buildings had been unreinforced masonry instead of wood, and you have the North End and Back Bay.

"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco." Supposedly Twain didn't really say this, but the point is, it's *by the water*. So no, it doesn't get muggy hardly ever, because it catches the breeze.

I've lived in Pennsylvania all my life, and am always impressed by unimpressive things there, while visiting any other place quickly seems to get old

Cryptic Ned has been brought to you by the Pennsylvania Department of Tourism, which should adopt the above as its endearingly unwieldy new slogan. (I used to live there too, CN; ever been to Sayre?)

Summer in San Francisco is quite cold, cold and foggy. The east and south bay can get pretty muggy, although it doesn't often get hot enough to constitute hellishness.

169: Most of the summer it's foggy in the mornings and evenings; there are some places (hello, Sunset) that can be socked in for weeks at a time. When it does get hot (further inland, and coastal areas in September-October) it's usually 80s and fairly dry. Sacramento may be more humid.

Be more specific, Josh, or go fuck yourself, whichever.

As I understand, his big mistake was the number of tons of concrete in LA county. He threw out a back-of-the-envelope number which didn't survive factchecking. The bogus fact wasn't essential to his argument, though it did give a veneer of science to "an unbelievable shitload of concrete" which was his first draft.

I honestly like it when the Southeast/Texas gets horribly, unbearably humid and hot in the summer. Everything slows down, and everyone has a sense of camraderie.

When it's cold, everyone hunches over and hurries and it's isolating.

Sacramento may be more humid.

Yeah, the valley can get way up there and humid,ish. But it's nothing, *nothing* like the east or the south, where 70 feels disgusting sometimes.

That's pretty sweet.

Central Minnesota is rich in weather, lake,s and swamps and poor in topography. You learn to like the things that are there, unless you don't.

177: I'll go along with that. Hot and humid is better than fucking cold-ass freezing, any day.

This thread is so not obeying its title, is it?

You can always add more clothes, but eventually, you can't get any more naked.

183 - wait, can you see me?

Sayre is right on the NY border, near Binghamton, right? I guess I grew up about an hour south of there, on the other side of the "Endless (pshaw) Mountains".

183: But you can take cool showers, or swim, or lie down and cover yourself with wet sheets. Heat brings on ennui. But freezing brings on clenched muscles and the desire to die.

(This said by a woman who had strep throat while 8 months pregnant in Kentucky in August, and who last summer felt absolutely nauseated from the heat for almost a week during remodelling. But even so.)

I love summers in New York City. Honestly, I do. I love the grandmas in mumus, the sticky stink of the subways, I love the hotdogs and italian ices and dubious-looking men playing dominoes on the sidewalk. I especially love the ten pm barbeques, still hot, with fireflies.

Of course, I also love leaving NYC in the summer to visit my family in the Bay Area. I just have to remember to pack my freaking wool socks.

183: And when you do get naked it's too hot for sex. I'll take cold. I've got a closet-full of gear suited to the minus temps and no chance to use it.

167, 176: I'd be interested in knowing what the charges are. I know City of Quartz only by reputation, and didn't know about any criticisms. Googling around I can find some complaints about fact checking, but no specific charges.

But my home is heated and has no air conditioning. It's easier to put on another blanket or wear warm clothes.

More frustrating when it's 97 degrees and you have to walk to go teach. They don't let you teach naked. But there is the drinking of frosty drinks out of doors after the teaching, which can only be done in the summer.

176: I thought it was accepted that Mike Davis had played fast and loose with the facts -- he invented a conversation between himself and Lewis MacAdams, and generally inflated numbers when suitable (the number of homicides in LA, the number of gangs, etcetera). Both Ecology of Fear and City of Quartz are pretty great books, but they're useful more as poetic/polemic essays and thought pieces, rather than an actual history or data sourcebook.

B- you lived in KY?

I've got a closet-full of gear suited to the minus temps and no chance to use it.

I get the "cold as a challenge" thing, cause I've got a bit of that in me. But B's "freezing brings on clenched muscles and the desire to die." is also on the mark.

Maybe E v. W is too difficult. Can we all at least agree that the world's greatest climate/environment is Argentina?

184: "wait, can you see me?"

I can't. Perhaps you should send around more pictures of yourself.

I guess it's probably SOMEWHERE in Argentina, that's a big place. I'm not partial to Tierra del Fuego, though.

Surprised nobody has mentioned this book yet. C'mon east coast partisans, make us work for it!

I've realized that I really don't need seasons. Temperature ranging from the mid-sixties to the low eighties and 300 sunny days a year? Okay by me!

Supposedly Twain didn't really say this

But Sleater-Kinney did.

176: Here you go. It's an article by Lewis MacAdams, in which he talks about the fact that Davis invented an interview with him.

160: get off your high horse. Much of California is an environmental nightmare compared to Manhattan. And even leaving sprawl aside, which one shouldn't--we have enough water here, and that makes a big difference. The eastern United States has about the same amount of forest cover they did during the revolutionary war, and we're even seeing large predators come back (though it's now coyotes, and it's not great for pets).

I shouldn't say we; I live in Chicago But the land around it is much too flat for me. Home is home. The West is more spectacular, but New England is human scaled, and that has its own charms. And New York City and Chicago are spectacular too. I found Southern California depressing even as an eight year old.

But we DO have seasons, at least in the Bay Area. They're just perhaps too subtle for coarse Eastern sensibilities.

"The eastern United States has about the same amount of forest cover they did during the revolutionary war"

Well, yeah, because the colonists had already largely deforested it by that time!

201: Wasn't talking about the bay area. I am happy to acknowledge my neck of the woods has fairly minimal seasonal differences.

But fortunately, it's the type of land that can be deforested and the forests will return, i.e. not a desert.

Argentina? Too much pampa for my tastes.

203: OK. It is a complaint that gets applied to the Bay Area as well, though, IMO, somewhat inaccurately.

Well, yeah, because the colonists had already largely deforested it by that time!

Silly Sifu, don't you see? Absence is a very sustainable expression of sustainability.

I am partial to NC and in fact have trouble thinking of anywhere else I've been in the US where I think I could live and enjoy it. On the other hand, the mountain forest where I spent my childhood playing has recently been turned into a subdivision and my mom is tweaked because the limit of the newly established "city" in my hometown is right at my parents' property line and thus they are not technically in "town" and don't qualify for services. Changebad, etc.

199: Weird. He fabricated an interview for the LA Weekly, then asked his subject if it was ok, and the subject agreed, and then wrote about the fabrication himself.

as for too cold v. too hot: I prefer a bad winter to a bad summer, but I'm not sure there's anything worse than being cold at night and unable to warm up. This almost never happens, though--unless you're camping or whatnot you can always put on socks, another blanket, etc.

What I resent in Chicago is the combination of cold and not snowy.

right, it'd been deforested before--peaked during the 19th century. But being settled before the car is a huge advantage.

Mass transit isn't an ecosystem, but if we want to have ecosystems it's damn well necessary.

This isn't really East v. West though, for me; this is real cities v. not. The southeast is actually worse than the west on that front.

Also, the Maine coast is unbelievably beautiful. I thought I should mention.

The MacAdams interview is hardly damning.

I'm not sure there's anything worse than being cold at night and unable to warm up.

This happens to me every single time I visit the Bay Area. Compared to the centrally heated apartments I've lived in on the East Coast and in Europe, my parents' house is just clammy. The only thing that warms up and dries out the sheets there is an electric blanket.

I reiterate my principled stance to have no opinions beyond attempting to defend what is familiar to me. A discussion of climates is a far better place to take that approach than a political discussion.

while I'm rambling, you know what state has a surprisingly pretty countryside? (to my uneducated Yankee eyes, anyway?) Missouri, south of St Louis. Towards the Ozarks I guess it is. You don't realize how far even low foothills get you until you go someplace really flat.

"Michigan" s/b "Indiana

Funny thing about Indiana, the roads make it look worse than it is. I-65 between Chicago and Indianapolis is flat and featureless everywhere but around Lafayette, and I-70 is about as bad across the entire waist of the state. The worst of all is U.S. 30, the Lincoln Highway. Yet even there, the road was built deliberately, in the 20s, on the flatest land. One time I was diverted, I think by a major accident, and found a much more rolling and interesting country within a half mile of 30, that was there until the detour ended. Another time I was caught in a major blizzard that caused the road to be closed for several days. I was sleeping on a cot in the fire station when I was invited to join volunteer firefighters on rescue. Beautiful woods and rolling hills.

185: That's the place. You're somewhere around Scranton/Wilkes-Barre? I went back there a few years ago for the first time since I was a kid, and I'd totally forgotten how beautiful parts of the Susquehanna Valley are.

Jersey has the same problem. There are lots of beautiful places in Jersey, if you like the East Coast landscape at all, but not where you can see them from the major highways.

197: I've realized that I really don't need seasons. Temperature ranging from the mid-sixties to the low eighties and 300 sunny days a year? Okay by me!

Ahhh, but little do you know human require bracing Nordic climes to test their mettle.

And New York City and Chicago are spectacular too.

Damn straight. Even SoCal can't really claim amazing beaches in the heart of downtown.

I second the opinion expressed earlier that Ogged's photos of the Palo Alto area just reminded me of the boring rural areas in England. I can't really think of a major American city with truly amazing natural surroundings, though Vancouver was pretty incredible and I have yet to visit Seattle and the rest of the Pacific NW. Mountain valleys, beaches with amazing waterfront, and dense forests are the best city surroundings IMO.

David had a lot of hilarious stuff about the many LA disaster movies, a lot of stuff about actual tornadoes in LA, a lot of stuff about real people talking about apocalyptic scenarios they really feared, etc. The criticisms I've read don't touch the most interesting stuff. Why he chose to do the fictionalizing I don't know, but it's not Judith Miller type deception.

You're somewhere around Scranton/Wilkes-Barre?

Yes, but in Pittsburgh now. It struck me as soon as I got here as like Wilkes-Barre but fractally bigger, and it still seems that way. Quite a similar experience.

I went back there a few years ago for the first time since I was a kid, and I'd totally forgotten how beautiful parts of the Susquehanna Valley are.

I tend to think the abandoned machinery is often the most picturesque element of the less populated areas.

218: My mom lived in Jersey for a while while my dad was in the Navy. This was in the late 1950's. She loved it there and thought it very beautiful. There's a reason they call it the Garden State, I am told, and I'm OK with those reasons not having the turnpike in the middle of them if that's the case.

The thing about north america is, the beautiful parts are spread out. I'm sure most areas have some pretty bits, and there are a few really stunning areas. Mostly though, there is a whole lot of blah, and a bit of downright ugly.

So you have to go looking for the good stuff.

JAC have you ever seen Portland Maine? It sort of is both on a mountain and on the ocean, sort of.

219: Yeah, well, I grew up in Boston, and spent two winters without heat, so I think my mettle has been plenty tested, thank you.

Also I've heard that ludicrous argument about brain size/intellectual capability before. The historical argument, sure, fine, but when applied to modern humans? Apparently living in cold climates doesn't protect us from scientific illiteracy

amazing beaches in the heart of downtown

I ride to that beach every day I can, and was there yesterday.

Oh, I interviewed there for a clerkship, and thought it was gorgeous. Didn't get it -- I think I answered the question about whether I was personally offended by Clinton's infidelity and dishonesty wrong.

228 to 225

there is the drinking of frosty drinks out of doors after the teaching, which can only be done in the summer.

Exactly. There are few pleasures in the world that can top that.

192: No, Mr. B. grew up there.

200: Bah. The "Southern California is so awful" thing is so cliched, and it's not high horsiness to be genuinely enthused about the place on lives. You easterly folks are sooooooo touchy. Chillax.

San Francisco has beaches. New York has waterfronts of a sort.

You interviewed where for a clerkship? Portland Maine? The Hancock Building? Wilkes-Barre? Rural Indiana? Tierra del Fuego?

I have yet to visit Seattle and the rest of the Pacific NW

I haven't been to Seattle, but Portland really was very pretty.

220: vancouver is easily the most beautifully situated city in north america thouh (continental, anyway). Hard to go far wrong near there too. It's the only part that really does mountains + ocean though (perhaps Alaska?). As you go south things go to rolling hills, and the eastern part of the continent doesn't mountains like that.

220: Salt Lake, San Diego. Yeah, Portland.

220: But a lake beach just isn't . . . right. The water doesn't smell or taste right, and knowing that it's a lake is just disturbing.

Portland ME.

220: but I meant to add, but arguably vancouver is in the top few worldwide, too.

228: Oh, I wasn't counterpointing, I was agreeing based on the family lore.

And seriously, they didn't give you a clerkship because of that answer? I cannot fathom a context in which that question would be OK, but all I know about the legal profession I learned from Perry Mason.

239: Gah, misread and thus responded when not addressed. But seriously, that is fucked up.

But it's nothing, *nothing* like the east or the south, where 70 feels disgusting sometimes.

In my experience, seventy degrees is swell everywhere, unless there's actually a tornado or something bearing down on one.

239: Eh, clerking for a judge is like being a personal assistant -- you're trying to do the routine legal work precisely as the judge would do it themselves if they had the time to do it all. While you could argue that hiring for political compatibility is unseemly anyway, it's very conventional.

234 is correct. Seattle is prettier than Portland.

Another vote for hating the cold. You can't put on more layers or throw on another blanket when you're waiting thirty-two minutes for a Q train at 11pm in February with the temperature at 13 F, then enduring a 15 minute walk home from the train station.

The heat was blasting in my apartment that night and it still took me over an hour to warm back up.

225: No, I've never been there. A quick Flickr search is having a hard time finding mountains in the pile of lighthouse pictures. In a more annoying mood, I'd claim that Portland doesn't count as a "major American city", but I think Boulder is closer to what I think of as a town hemmed in by mountains. And of course, we'll never have anything on the Himalayan cities.

227: You can see my apartment in the photo in 220. Chances are that I'll run into you sometime this summer, since I'm also down there as often as possible. My jar likes the warmth of the sand.

236: You're right, it smells and tastes better. Plus it doesn't irritate the all skin you never knew you had after a few hours of swimming. Lake Michigan is cold as all get out, admittedly, and really no good for long bouts in the water unless you're doing some serious swimming.

All these "Vague thing A > Vague thing B" opinions are boring.

I tend to think the abandoned machinery is often the most picturesque element of the less populated areas.

Get out of my brain, Cryptic Ned! Out!

246: JAC, I nominate you for contrarian of the day.

I have to second Portland, OR, and really the state of Oregon as a whole. Where else can you go from city center (aka downtown) to countryside in 15 minutes? And the vsat majority of the state is rather rural and in beautiful hills and valleys (and Mt. Hood). I've never been to the desert side of the Cascades however.

Where else can you go from city center (aka downtown) to countryside in 15 minutes?

Any city roughly the size of Portland, I think. The question is whether the city center or the countryside are worth spending any time in.

B, you can like California better all you want, but the idea that the northeast is environmentally inferior pushes particular buttons of mine.

I am attached to cities in general, and depressed by the idea that people aren't capable of building great ones anymore. But that probably means I should shut up about California until I go to the cities that people actually like.

Chicago beaches are better for walking or biking along than swimming or sunbathing, I think: the sand's too hot without the ocean breeze, and the water's too cold.

Chicago has sandy shorelines, not beaches. It's not a beach unless it's the ocean. This is elementary, folks.

250:

You'd be hard pressed to do so in a city Portland's size (the whole metropolitan area, really) in the Midwest. Take Cincinnati or Indianapolis...

The point about the countryside may just be philosophical differences.

251:

I've been in Chicago for the past couple summers and still don't feel good in 68 degree water.

It's not a beach unless it's the ocean.

This is correct. No sharks, no beach.

I love that these threads get so heated. Y'all wouldn't think my pictures were unremarkable if you'd grown up in the fucking wasteland that is the greater Chicago metropolitan area. Seventy degrees and sunny does actually suck in Chicago, even though those poor, poor Chicagoans don't realize it. On other topics, cold is far preferable to heat, cities suck, and mass transit sucks extra bad.

You'll take my subway system away from me when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

248: For saying that fresh lake water is better tasting than salty ocean water? When you're hot and thirsty, do you reach for a refreshing glass of cool brine (Gatorade is a borderline and cheeky answer)?

251, 253: A good towel or beach mat really is crucial to hang out on Chicago beaches, but the hotness of the sand and the coldness of the water are also perfect complements on the hot-as-hell July days. Jump in and out of the water a few times, play some sports on the beach, and you'll be exhausted in a couple hours. It's a much sunnier version of the sauna-to-snow treatment.

Gah, I remember riding the T to do grocery shopping in the middle of the damn Boston winter, thinking to myself, "why am I not tending sheep in the scorching sun of my ancestral homeland?" Cars have been invented. Use them!

For saying that fresh lake water is better tasting than salty ocean water?

Lake water tastes nasty, as does ocean water. This is why the eight-pound baby Jesus gave us water treatment facilities.

222: Yes! Huge and abandoned old steel plant and quarry gear completely covered in kudzu is great.

Cars have been invented. Use them!

But first, shovel the snow out of the driveway, scrape the ice off your windshield, and let them warm up for ten minutes. And make sure to give yourself half an hour to deal with traffic delays, and another half hour to drive around looking for a fucking place to park.

You know you miss it, B.

257.1: Yeah, the fact that fresh ocean air smells great means that I think saltwater is drinkable.

262: God, I was so thrilled to throw the ice scraper away you can't even imagine.

Yeah, the fact that fresh ocean air smells great means that I think saltwater is drinkable.

Meet:
But a lake beach just isn't . . . right. The water doesn't smell or taste right

Not gonna argue with the ocean smell, that involves far more personal preference than the taste difference. Lake Michigan is way more delicious than any other major body of water I've accidentally ingested. However, I think we can both agree that in 259, as usual, Apo showed the path to enlightenment.

Lake Michigan is way more delicious than any other major body of water I've accidentally ingested

Except on those days after a heavy rain when the sewers back up into the lake and they close the beaches because of "unsafe levels of bacteria."

Seattle is prettier than Portland

Dear Rest of America,

B is correct. This place is a hellish shithole, and you should not under any circumstances consider moving here. Also, it rains a lot.

Love,
Portland

Think of them as flavor crystals, Ogged.

Who put donuts in the lake?

And speaking of abandoned places, as some people were upthread, this is beautiful and spooky. From a pretty cool site. via

226: Apparently living in cold climates doesn't protect us from scientific illiteracy

No doubt. Or maybe we're just not eating enough fish.

266: Yeah, the beach closings do suck horribly. It never seems to happen to Oak Street or Olive Park beaches though, just the ones north and south of downtown. So my beach remains delightfully E. Coli free.

And continuing to speak of abandoned places, this is also beautiful and spooky. Maybe not so beautiful, but striking nonetheless. The best part is in the ghost town itself, from about chapter 11 on. There's even a swimming pool, O.

267: Portland's probably a better place to live than Seattle, what with all the growth and craziness, but it's awfully hard to argue that it has better scenery. It's pretty, but the mountains and water on both sides thing that Seattle has going is awfully hard to beat. Crossing the ship canal bridge from the north on a sunny day in the late spring is a pretty intense bit of scenery.

But for natural setting, there's an argument to be made for Tacoma. The main problem is that they put Tacoma there.

But for natural setting, there's an argument to be made for Tacoma. The main problem is that they put Tacoma there.

This is also true of Anchorage. And by the way, for spectacular scenery, Alaska is very tough to beat.

What, no one appreciates the Tacoma Dome?

Also a shame: Renton

Portland is worse than Seattle which is worse than Vancouver, scenery wise.

Portland may be the most comfortable town in the US to live in, halfway between New York and Fargo. It has lots of nice stuff but still is AAA rather than big league. I think of it as the perpetuall AAA champion town. (I also think of it as an elephant graveyard, where no-longer-ambitious people go to die. )

273: When I used to work for Powell's, sometimes out-of-of-town customers would ask, "I'm only in Portland for a couple of days -- where should I go for fun?" The answer: "Seattle." So yeah, nice place to live...

Seattle does have better scenery, but that said, I have a view of Mt. St. Helens out the bedroom window, and I would have a view of Mt. Hood if it weren't for a tree a few blocks away. Stupid trees.

I also think of it as an elephant graveyard

So true. The mystery is that you never see their bleached skeletons anywhere.

Weirdly enough, Tacoma doesn't seem to be so bad anymore. I spent a month their last summer, and within walking distance of where I was staying there was an Indian resteraunt better than any within walking distance of any other place I've lived (though not better than some of the further flung places in Berkeley), a delicious Argentinian resteraunt, and a brewpub who brewed best Hefeweizen I've had and Lindeman's Frambois on tap for $2.50. On top of that, there's a city park that rivals the Presidio. I really expected it to suck, and it really wasn't that bad.

I can only think of a few states I've been in without any redeeming natural value. The charms of Indiana have so far not affected me, but then I've never been to the dunes. Tippecanoe and those mounds northeast of Indy are worth something, though.

I don't think of Boulder as surrounded by mountains -- but maybe that's because I don't think of mountains on one side as surrounding anything. Bozeman, on the other hand, is surrounded. If I had as much money as Ted Turner, I'd be happy enough to buy his ranch west of town.

That kind of sums up my attitude towards living in the Bay Area, I think. If I had enough money to have 6 homes, and no need to spend any more than 3-4 months in one place at a time, I can imagine one of the homes being in Marin. West of Mt. Tam.

279: Partly it's that Tacoma is another place that shows its worst to the freeway. And those of us old enough to remember when the Tacoma Aroma was truly powerful still resent it for that. And it has a few more heavy metals in the dirt than any place really needs too badly. But other than that....

278 -- Many years ago, in the process of moving to Europe, I abandoned my VW bug to my little brother, then a student at Reed. As expected, the engine failed after a short while. He and some friends bolted the car (sans identifying information, I'm assured) to the underside of an underpass somewhere in Portland. It quickly disappeared -- something about not leaving bleaching bones to be discovered . . .

The Rockies are pretty bad scenery, since the plain the mountains rise from is about 11000 feet.

Tacoma's been getting gentrified, people.

265: Taste. Not as in "drink a nice tall glass full." For that you want Pelligrino. As in, when you get a li'l bit of that saltwater on your lips, or your honey gets some on their skin. You gonna argue with that, Mr. Contrarian?

The one thing I have to say against Portland is that my black friend who lived there said it was surprisingly racist.

284: I've heard it said that Portland has the largest de facto segregated school system in the northern states, which is not hard to believe. The city itself is very white, with mostly homogenous neighborhoods.

The gentrification is apparently also pushing out the people who used to live in the stable middle-class black neighborhood, which isn't making anyone very happy.

Lindeman's Frambois on tap for $2.50

That has GOT to be below cost. I call BS on this as suggesting any greater trend.

since the plain the mountains rise from is about 11000 feet

Bozeman elevation 4950
Helena elevation 3875
Kalispell elevation 2959
Jackson WY elevation 6447
Boulder elevation 5430
Colorado Springs elevation 6035
Calgary elevation 3736

56 -- Charles Kuralt, who got around, famously preferred the Beartooth Highway, from Red Lodge to Cooke City.

I like US 395 as much as the next person, but once when I was driving past Obsidian Dome, there was an earthquake, and I ended up driving southbound in the northbound lane. Which was only okay because the folks going northbound were in the borrow pit.

Charles Kuralt, who got around

But considered North Carolina home. A fraternity brother of McManlyPants and me, also.

Lindeman's lambics are over-sweet.

Off Topic but you should have taken your mom 15 or 20 minutes up 280 to Edgewood County Park. It is awash in wildflowers now.
Then again for some real views take her to the Marin Headlands.

Yeah, I've taken her to the Headlands, but I didn't know about Edgewood. Thanks.

Oceans are scary. A kraken could get me. Lakes are nice, but too damn cold. Solution: stay on shore, you don't have gills. Go hiking instead.

Oceans are great. And you heartland and east coast people would get laughed at a bit less if you learned to go under the waves. Duck dive.

I'd move to the Portland area in a heartbeat, I love the Northwest. If my wife and I spot decent jobs, it'll be pretty tempting. The whiteness of it won't bother me much as I live in freaking Salt Lake.

295: Our waves aren't big enough to make it worth the effort.