"someone where" s/b "Victor Davis Hansen"

"Victor Davis Hans[o]n" s/b "the conservative right." They all have this comic book picture of the world; it's what drives the "Will to Win" rhetoric. Krauthammer? Brooks? McCain? Cripes--National Greatness? And, as I think I've said before, I think they have to rely on it in the absence of a broader, more robust intellectual framework with which to interpret the world. We should just give Pat Robertson's university a ton of money.

Funny, I had VDH in there originally, but his views of 300 are sort of tricky, because he denounces the specific parallel or pro-Iraq-war thing, but likes the clear, almost-but-not-entirely unambiguous moral lesson. So I took him out.

So I took him out.

You whacked Hansen? I guess you're the hero now.

I've kind of enjoyed reading VDH on 300 because he has no choice but to praise the movie, seeing as how he's become a fully owned subsidiary of the Right-Wing apparatus, but he does so while disowning all of its historical content. Neat trick, that.

he does so while disowning all of its historical content

It may be because he's smart enough to realizes that the obvious parallel that a martian would receive from the movie is that Sparta:Al Qaeda::Persians:US hegemony, so he doesn't want the power of his words to inspire people to join up with the empire-smashing forces of Osama Bin Laden and Dinesh D'Souza.

Couple quick thoughts though I haven't seen it yet: I thought Kung-Fu Monkey (?) 's observation that Leonidas' lines could work, with no alteration, as the lines of the arrogant villain heading for defeat at the hands of American farmboys/plucky peasants was telling.

Second thought: Ten years, max, before Miller comes out of the closet. The only reason you spend that much time gaying up the Persians is so no one notices your Spartans are wearing leather thongs.

Well Labs, I've expressed the same fears myself, I think in a comment at mcmc's. Everybody I know whose written about it or talked about it, like my kids, has mocked it as camp. But like you, I postulate the existance of people who know that they're obliged to mock it, and can see that it's like a cartoon, you know? but at the same time are digging it. So at least you're not alone in your residual humorlessness.

whose s/b who's

The thing is, it's so close to being completely hilarious, because the CULTURAL UNDERTONES are themselves super-obvious and campy, but then the little NRO guy in my head says, hell, let's bomb Iran, and it spoils the fun.

Cala, I totally agree with KF Monkey's point. I'd read his take before seeing the movie, and I was surprised at how obvious the denegration of the volunteer, part-time soldier was-- I was expecting it to be sort of subtle, but no, it jumps right out, like Miller leaving the closet.

Maybe the problem is that the Battle of Thermopylae is a "Major Event". If the Spartans (and their allies) don't hold the pass, Western Civ dies a bornin'. (Cue cheers from Stanford undergrads). So the cultural significance can't be wished away, or "gayed away", in this case. Add to that the actual practises of the ancient Greeks with regard to "mentoring", Don't Ask Don't Tell, squishy feelings about martial prowess, ambivolence about sacrifice to the greater good, and you have a muddle.

Look, here's how anti-Bush liberals can enjoy 300 guilt-free:

When a few Persians actually come into Sparta and talk some shit, Leonidas throws their sorry asses down the well. This represents the appropriate, measured, proportionate response to terrorism: Kill the perps, but don't launch a full-on war against their homelands.

Leonidas doesn't lead his troops into battle UNTIL the Persians themselves invade Greece with a massive army. So, by the 300 way of fighting evil, the Iraq war was a mistake. There ya go.

Amber in a post not long ago mentioned that these guys were the first to defeat the Spartans with a smaller force.

The KF Monkey review overlooks (intentionally?) the fact that while American movies often lionize the plucky amateur, they just as often lionize the elite expert with skills, training, and resources that average people just don't have, like James Bond or Batman.

Of course, these experts, despite their awesome abilities and funding, end up positioned as the underdog anyway, against an even more powerful villain. 300 is an "elite expert" underdog movie, not a "plucky amateur" underdog movie.

Yeah, but the elite expert is positioned against other elite experts, not as the obvious superior of plucky amateurs. If plucky amateurs are in the story, they're the heroes.

Almost by definition, a plucky amateur is going to be a hero. But you don't see many plucky amateurs in a James Bond flick. Imagine if Bond were pursuing Goldfinger, and then some average Joe office worker walked up and asked if he could help. Bond would be just as dismissive of him as Leonidas was of the Arcadians.

An even closer parallel is in The Incredibles, when Mr. Incredible disses Buddy in almost exactly the same way as Leonidas rejects Ephilialtes the hunchback. (And Buddy, like Ephilialtes, decides to get revenge for the slight).

War Nerd had a great column on 300. The subject is perfect for him, what with ancient war and his nemesis Victor David Hanson involved in the narrative.

16. and then some average Joe office worker walked up and asked if he could help

That's usually reserved for Felix Leiter, the CIA man.

The attractiveness of "gaying away" everything about the Thermopylae story that makes modern audiences uncomfortable (and leads some modern minds down the "Oh, Cordoba!" garden path) notwithstanding, it really is a great story, and I'm inclined to think that any version of it is better than none.

That said, I've never thought that Miller was a closeted homosexual, but more a talented, obsessive narcissist. Sort of like his depictions of superheroes like Batman and Daredevil, actually.

Miller isn't a closeted homosexual; I don't even think he's homophobic. What he is is breathtakingly androcentric, less breathtakingly misogynists, and obsessed with a weird notion of masculinity. (Also, his drawings are kind of funny at this point.) John Rogers, who knows the director and may know Miller, had the best take I saw: But [Miller's] religion, his core political/personal framework is not conservative or liberal. It is for the lack of a better term manly anti-authoritarianism. Man the fuck up and do the manly thing, men. I'd quibble, but I think that's right, all in all. The fact that it plays so neatly into the current and ongoing right-wing storyline doesn't mean that it started out that way; it's not like lefties are immune to that particular siren call.

20: Immune? no. As commited to it, as inclined to think of it as a reliable guide to conduct? I don't think so.

I don't think the movie is unintentionally about Iran, or Iraq, or anything.

But you don't gay up the friggin' Immortals unless you're worried your Spartans look really gay. Same reason you make sure everyone knows your Spartans aren't boy-lovers like those philosophers in Athens.

But of course the movie has deep cultural significance. It's just that everyone has identified the wrong cultural significance...except for me, of course.

The only thing standing between me and harmless satisfaction is the existence of people who take this sort of thing seriously: it's impossible to enjoy campy war/playstation porn with the knowledge that someone, somewhere, is really getting off on it while thinking that it has Serious Cultural Significance.

Kinda like professional sports.

Analogies are banned.

Or porn.

26 to 24 ignoring 25

The fucking post itself is an analogy.

26: Same diff, especially around here.

scorn for the citizen-soldiers who, though identified as Arcadians, bring to mind Pericles' praise of the "amateurs" who matched the professional Spartan army

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Athenians didn't match the professional Spartan army. They built good walls and bet on their fleet. I'm not sure that there was ever a full scale battle between the Athenians and Spartans on land.

23 -- That's priceless.

20: What he is is breathtakingly androcentric, less breathtakingly misogynist

Dude, he was the first guy to feature a woman as Robin.

32: Dave Sim didn't always think women were the Female Void. What's your point?

#33: Dave Sim? What's your point? You think Miller became misogynistic after his Dark Knight days? I think his drawing of a woman in a positive, heroic role is evidence that he wasn't a misogynist at that time, and I don't see how he's become one since. Granted, his books are heavy on manly-men themes, but that's not the same thing at all as misogyny.

Dave Sim? What's your point?

That the fact that someone was once not misogynistic is not evidence that they are not now misogynistic.

And not that I follow Miller's work terribly closely, but this suggests that your view of his work is not universally shared.

32: So wait, what you're saying is that Robin is the kind of strong, dominant, capable character that would typically have been male?

A funny take on Miller's drawing of women.

So wait, what you're saying is that Robin is the kind of strong, dominant, capable character that would typically have been male?

The female Robin in the Dark Knight books is portrayed as a positive, capable character, given that she's all of 14 years old or something. She's not the goofy, pointless Robin of the 60's TV show.

Depicting female characters as sexed-up is not the defining characteristic of Miller as an artist; it's a trope of the entire superhero-comics genre. Is Miller worse than average in this regard? I don't think so.

Did Sixties hipsters groove the high camp of Batman when it was on prime time? I was a kid, and only saw reruns so my take would have been different. Certainly by junior high we had figured out that it was meant to be funny, even if we didn't understand the implications to the culture as a whole.

Is Miller worse than average in this regard? I don't think so.

If you're trying to argue that he's not misogynistic, "not worse than average" isn't really helping your cause.

Only if you assume that comic book artists, on average, are misogynistic.

35: Frank Miller has convinced me that Robert Rodriguez is a genius.

I was wondering how long it'd take you to show up in this thread, HD.

42: I can't imagine why anyone would think that.

Christ, I have entire subcultures as my Charles Bird, don't I.

39 to 42

42 - Which I do, thus the "less breathtaking" part. All Star Batman and Robin is exactly what I was thinking of, although I'm not convinced that it's not a magnificent piss-take on a) the industry and b) people who admire his work.

13: I think all of this stuff about pederasty in ancient Greece is just disgusting. If you're going to engage in pederasty, the least you could do would be to spring for a fresh can of Crisco.

45 - I think I was talking up Simone's work on Birds of Prey in the grindhouse thread.

#45: This isn't rocket science. Killing, threatening, or jeopardizing the hero's love interest creates dramatic tension. Since most heroes are male, most of their love interests end up being female.

If that means that comic book artists or writers are misogynists, then so is 90% of the movie industry. I mean, really, having Princess Leia get captured and forced to wear a demeaning outfit while in chains... what was George Lucas thinking?

#46: Being horny is not the same thing as being misogynist.

#47: I admit I haven't read All Star Batman & Robin.

51: Being so horny that it never occurs to you that you could create a female character who wasn't sexed up may not be sexist, but it ain't no Simone de Beauvoir, either.

What is it the Frank Miller is celebrated for, again? Oh, yeah! Putting superheroes into a gritty, urban milieu full of realistically dark circumstances and characterizations. Except for the girls, who generally fit into the roles of madonna, whore, or talking rack.

I'm not complaining about this, per se (don't read comics; enjoy tits), but I think your apologia fails on the grounds that Frank Miller is supposed to be, y'know, different from your average zit-faced comic creator. And he is different, on every metric except three-dimensional non-objectified female characters.

50: it's not love interests.

I'm not going to continue. I don't fault your ignorance; I've had to explain to leftier-than-thou China Mieville about this goddamned trope. But it's a known issue in the industry, and not something uppity feminists came up with to bug real story-telling men about. Next up: no, just because you bought them dinner doesn't mean you get to sleep with them.

I based my apologia on the two Miller works I have read: the Dark Knight series, and 300. Since these bracket a nice long time period, I assumed Miller hadn't changed much in between.

That said, some of the other works linked here seem quite a bit skeezier than Dark Knight or 300. But not having read these other works in full, I won't pass judgment on what they say about Miller as a person.

Way to let down the entire Internet commenter army, dude.

50: Wait, George Fricking Lucas is your idea of a dramatist with typical, non-problematic attitudes toward women?

I think Miller's changed a lot in the intervening years. Partly I think he's become a creative narcissist, indulgently dirtying his own diapers and delighting in the mess and smell. All-Star Batman and Robin is really just wretched, as was DK2. But I have to say I've never thought of him as dramatically more misogynist than other comic book artists (and I have complex feelings about when and how comic book art is misogynist or sexist). What I think is close to the mark is the idea that he's very much in love with a certain kind of manliness that is both anti-authoritarian and exceptionally authoritarian in one simultaneous move. Basically it's men who exemplify a kind of ideal state of violent stoical detachment and supreme willpower that often puts them at odds with "society" or some other kind of convention, but who are ultimately better than ordinary men who are in some way pussified or domesticated, too much "in" society. Women are, under some circumstances, allowed to come along for the ride, I think. That part of Miller has been pretty consistent for a long time, though his version of Daredevil was an unusually soulful and reflective take on the type.

#57: You don't hear people slamming him as a misogynist. As a crappy writer of dialogue, as a racist, and as a juvenile plotter, yes. But not as a misogynist.

But heck, if you don't like Lucas as an example, pick any other one of the kajillion movies where the hero's love interest gets captured, tortured, threatened, killed, etc.

True, we know from #54 that "it's not love interests". Okay. Spielberg opened "Jaws" with a random woman getting eaten alive. Tom Cruise watches a female IMF agent have a posion capsule explode in her head in M:i:III. Are Spielberg and Cruise misogynists?

All I'm sayin' is, this kind of thing goes back at least to the days when Snidley Whiplash tied the heroine to the train tracks. Putting damsels in distress is not unique to the comic book industry.

Racks are three-dimensional. The more, the better.

59: Not interested in debating your broader argument, but it's plain as the ass on a goat that Lucas has serious and deeply weird issues with women, and the fact that he's the example you grabbed kind of suggests that maybe you're not thinking all that hard about what sorts of things feminists might reasonably object to. Beyond that, I'll leave it to those who have actually done the reading.

Gaijin Biker, cultural relativist.

#59: Jeez. I was going for a film that's widely accepted as unobjectionable entertainment, yet still features a woman in distress, and I came up with Star Wars. So sue me.

Oops, "#59" s/b "#61"

#61: I think feminists could object (with varying degrees of reasonableness) to 99.9% of pop-culture entertainment. I don't think the Star Wars movies would make their top ten worst list.

65: We've been over this ground before. I'm not going to tell you *not* to throw rocks at the hornet nest, but...

I don't think the Star Wars movies would make their top ten worst list.

And yet that doesn't mean that the scene you mention isn't laughably retrograde. Pointing out that there are scenes of cliched, unthinking misogyny in "unobjectionable" or commonplace contexts doesn't prove that those tropes are A-OK, it proves that even "unobjectionable" movies are often kind of objectionable, even if they are also enjoyable and their creators basically mean well.

I'm not sure I add much ballast to the "right about feminism" side of the scale, but I agree with #65 as written. And (possibly) #67--I'm willing to agree, but I don't know what the objections to Star Wars are.

And yet that doesn't mean that the scene you mention isn't laughably retrograde.

Well, in fairness, it did take place "a long time ago".

Actually, Leia is a very strong character. She talks smack to Luke and Han when they rescue her, she commands the rebellion, she rescues Han from Jabba's palace, she kills Jabba, she fights on Endor... she's badass. I think Lucas earned the privilege to put her in a bikini for two minutes out of three two-hour movies without being slammed as a tool of the patriarchy.

I think Lucas earned the privilege to put her in a bikini for two minutes out of three two-hour movies

Is that what it is? I remember my pre-teen self and am not willing to give that scene up.

I have no dog at all in this fight, but didn't Luke and Han also appear mostly naked in a scene or two? Luke when he's in the water chamber after he's rescued from the cold, and Han after he comes out of carbon freeze? (Yes, they've been on HBO lately.)

I'm not actually trying to convince anyone that Lucas is a tool of the patriarchy. I just want to point out that though Leia's bikini scene appears in a generally delightful movie,* this does not in itself constitute proof that the trope of chained-up damsels in distress clad in brass bikinis is super keen girl power hooray!

*and doubtless also gave many fine young preteens some delightful young boners

I think Han had his clothes on inside the carbonite.

I have to say the notion that Lucas' relationship with women is supposed to be "deeply weird" to some unusual degree is a surprising one. I don't know where that's coming from.

As for Miller, he's about as non-misogynist as anyone could expect a shut-in, masculinity-obsessed geek to be, and the "manly anti-authoritarianism" diagnosis seems wrong; the vibe is simply manly authoritarianism, with Good flavours fighting Bad flavours. (Not that that's foreign to the caped crusading genre where he first made his name.) It's also perfectly clear that he lost the ability to tell the difference between good and bad cheese some years ago. If "I'm the goddamned Batman" and the farcical 300 don't make that plain enough, this should eliminate all doubt.

Imagine the sick ass Google searches that are going to pull up Unfogged as a result of 73.

I think Han had his clothes on inside the carbonite.

In that case, Lucas is a misogynistic bastard.

I learned a lot from this thread. Like, Black Canary is hott. No, seriously, it was a good discussion.

"Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm the goddamn Batman."

Black Canary is hott, GB, and you should read Gail Simone's Birds of Prey (starring her, the original Batgirl, and Huntress).

Han had his clothes on. Lucas seems to make both Leia and Padmé more classic scifi damsel-in-distress in their respective third movies. Leia gets the bikini, Padmé gets pregnant and very dumb, and neither of them seem to be quite the same character.

Are comic books the worst thing ever? Not really. Are they sexist? Quite a lot of them are. If the heroine isn't a whore, killed off to get the hero off his ass to kill the bad guy, she's running around in stilettos and inflatable boobs. The equivalent, as linked up thread, would be lots of seductive crotch shots of Superman. Are they better or worse than most other movies? Probably a bit worse because every crimefighting chick is doing so with her inflatable boobs.

Oh, I see this thread is now about defending "pop entertainment we like" from accusations of being misogynist because it's no worse than other pop entertainment we like.

Next up: gosh, those feminists think *everything* is sexist. What's wrong with them?

Carry on.

That's not fair, B. That's not what has been said at all.

Oh, God, that All-Star Batman is awful and the review of it is brilliant.

83 was re: 79, btw.

Oh yeah, I forgot somehow that the bikini scene was in Return of the Jedi. Scratch "generally delightful movie," though I think I'm comfortable with "generally delightful trilogy" instead.

I've never read a comic book, but just assumed they were sexist, given the audience and typical subject matter. Now Farber can come tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

83: Isn't it just? I especially love the captions.

I've never read a comic book, but just assumed they were sexist, given the audience and typical subject matter.

What is wrong with you? I don't know much about comic books, have read very few, but I've read more than one.

82: Who ever said I was fair? But for the record, I certainly didn't mean everyone commenting in the thread. But (e.g.) 65 is annoying: the fact that 99.9% of pop culture entertainment is varyingly objectionable on feminist grounds is certainly no reason to absolve anyone of misogyny. On the contrary.

In all honesty, though, I kinda liked that there was an argument that made me feel like I could content myself with weary sniping instead of actually bothering to get worked up.

B thinks that Wolverine could take Batman.

Adamantium is nothing against adamwestium.

I haven't read comics since I was a teenager, but I was buying 2000AD weekly when Alan Moore and Ian Gibson's "Ballad of Halo Jones" was being published, which was a real breakthrough in the portrayal of women in comics.

I don't even know who Wolverine is.

the fact that 99.9% of pop culture entertainment is varyingly objectionable on feminist grounds is certainly no reason to absolve anyone of misogyny. On the contrary.

Kill 'em all!

In all honesty, though, I kinda liked that there was an argument that made me feel like I could content myself with weary sniping instead of actually bothering to get worked up.

Hey, glad to help.

I've read more than one

Geek.

I'm always lost when the subject turns to comic books. When I was a kid, I just listened to KISS instead.

Kill 'em all!

Hardly. More like "expect them to man up and admit it." If you're going to be naughty for fun, it's a bit much to whine about how unfair it is when mommy tsks at you.

By the way, I am currently reading "Y: The Last Man", which is a graphic novel series (written by a man and drawn by a woman), about the last man left alive on earth after something mysteriously kills every male mammal on the planet, except for the one guy's pet monkey. It is not at all stupid, despite how it may sound from that summary. And by definition, it completely lacks sexism and features women in virtually all the major roles: president, scientist, army commander, crime boss, etc. And since it is drawn by a woman, the characters do not have unrealistically ginormous boobs It is completely awesome and I recommend it wholeheartedly. Only the first 8 volumes are out now; I think there will be 10 in total and I can't wait to see how it ends.

You'll forgive us if we retain some skepticism about its "completely lacking sexism" on your say-so.

#97: "mommy" s/b "a complete stranger"

I've never read a comic book, but just assumed they were sexist . . .

Well, Sturgeon's Law definitely applies but, heck, it applies to blogs too.

I've read some of that, GB. It's fun, but I might quibble with the idea that it's not sexist -- while it's depicting world without men (save for Schlub and his monkey), it's being pitched to a largely male audience, and if there's one thing a steady diet of women-in-prison movies have taught me, it's that all-female casts can certainly pander to sexism. The Y writer, Brian Vaughn, also writes Runaways. That's a fun little trifle of a superhero comic that you might also like (also reasonably non-sexist).

101: Whyaren't there more female bloggers?

99: Read an issue, B. It deals with gender issues in a thoughtful, intelligent way. It's like the polar opposite of every comic book we've been talking about here. It even has heroic lesbian characters and portrays lesbian relationships in a serious way. If you buy an issue and think I've deceived you, I'll PayPal you the purchase price.

Sounds cool, GB.

A graphic novel can't possibly lack sexism by definition, by definition of "by definition".

Some are better than others.

Unless you use "by definition" as a mild oath, like "by gum".

Bonus: The first issue shows a mob of Republican congressmen's widows attacking the White House, and another character, watching them, says that Republicans are worse than terrorists.

106: Yeah, I overreached there. But you know what I mean.

104: Appreciate the offer, but really I don't read graphic novels much. That said, there is some good feminist work out there that I have read a bit of. I don't have a particular beef with the form, just not that into it. But if I see Y in a shop somewhere, I'll have a look at it, thanks.

There aren't any analytic truths, anyway.

"any" s/b "a finite number of"

No analytic truth is not an analytic truth.

Also.

I never properly credited Kant Generator Pro for that line. Thanks, Kant Generator Pro.

A sich in time saves nein.

Mache dich mein Herze rein.

BitchPhd: Auguste wrote an in depth analysis/review of Y: The Last Man at Pandagon a couple of months back. You can read it here: The politics of the Acockalypse. As he said, it's not without its problems and is aimed primarily at a male audience, but at the same time the overarching message is firmly pro-feminist. I think it's great. But then I'm a man.

I think "Y" sucks, but perhaps I'm too sexist to recognize the revolutionary value of the whiny, passive male protagonist and his army o' pop culture references.

I fixed the link in 119. It was missing quotes around the URL.

As a young woman, I always assumed that Jabba the Hutt was the sexist asshole who demeaned the awesome kickass Leia by making her wear that stupid bikini. I had not gotten to advanced patriarchy-blaming at that point.

George Lucas, Jabba the Hut, same thing, really.

OK, I really didn't mean to launch another feminism fight, I just thought that it was hilarious to reach for a moviemaker with mainstream attitudes toward women and grab Lucas. But in fairness to GSwift, I think it was those God-awful romance scenes between Anakin and Padme that had my wife and me walking out of the theater shaking our heads, not the original trilogoy. OTOH we're not particularly attuned to gender subtleties, so it takes a fair bit to get us to "holy shit, that guy has major problems with women." Hence the hilarity.

[On preview, I was going to edit "trilogoy," but I think I'll leave it there and see if anyone can make something of it.]

Those were the shrimp-eating arthropods of the late Cambrian period, Dave.

But then I'm a man.

I look forward to the day when the collective Unfoggedetariat will decide whether I'm male-identified or man-hating.

126: They're mutually exclusive?

GB, I mean, not GSwift.

re: 127

Yeah, good point.

126: I'm a self-hating man?

It does seem like the most likely thing, you have to admit.

Are there any lawyers in the house? Can we really sue over #63. 'Cause that would be pretty sweet.

126 - You hate them because you know what they're really like.

You can sue over anything. Better questions are "will I win?" and "will I get sanctioned?"

So how does the slutty thing work into the equation?

All men are sluts... how hard is that?

Ah, got it. And I self-hate as a result.

Cool. Presumably this means that no one can argue with me any more by saying or implying that I don't know how guys talk when they're among themselves.

I'm a self-hating man?

I believe this disqualifies you on the man part, and also makes the self-hating thing dubious.

Well, see, this is what I would have thought. But the other boys don't seem to agree, Apo, and you know how we guys always follow the crowd. Dude.

138 is one of the rare instances where use of the word "Dude" is actually funny.