I totally thought that they were in New York. His brother sounds equally nuts.
Oh my. He should have just stopped after "once again, I have made an ass of myself."
It's a little game they do. She'll call him back in character, too, as a drunk.
I made 970,000 dollars last year, how much you make? You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father. Fuck you, go home and play with your kids. You want to work here, close. You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cock-sucker. You can't take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit. If you don't like it, leave. I can go out there tonight, the materials you got, make myself 15,000 dollars. Tonight. In two hours. Can you? Can you?
It doesn't really sound like him, but what do I know? I know you don't want a self-centered drama queen for a father, that's what. Jesus.
I get the nagging sensation that this is only part of the story.
8: Indeed, the man with the sniper rifle was making him say that into the pay phone.
Not that I know much about Baldwin, but this is the guy who's hosted SNL what, 12 times now? Not hard to imagine it's a joke.
I bet Kim Basinger is no great parent either. (She must not be, if she'd leak this to the press.)
Is he chewing her out because she didn't answer the phone when they had scheduled some sort of phone appointment?
AH. I just realized what's going on. Alec Baldwin is filming Glengarry Glen Ross 2 on the Ross Ice Shelf, which explains both why it took him a long time to find a phone and why he had to stay in character (he's method).
Phew, that's a relief.
11: She took it to court. I don't think it's can be kept confidential after that.
11: She took it to court. I don't think it's can be kept confidential after that.
Mmm, I'm pretty sure it can and was supposed to be. If it went to court, I assume it's not a joke.
Could be a joke that mom's not in on. A joke gone horribly wrong.
Is there something wrong or unusual about the way he spoke to his daughter? Is there something involved here that I don't know about?
I don't think there are any 12-year-old kids who would get this kind of joke.
Only charitable explanation: Alec had some way of knowing that Kim would listen to the message and not his daughter. It's obvious just from listening to it that she is the real subject of his ire, but is it conscious or not? Let's hope the former. Of course she could be partly to blame by attacking her ex-husband through her daughter as well.
All very sad.
I don't find anything particularly remarkable about the message. That is one reason I am never having kids.
Exactly. I have no interest in being part of the Circle of Life, emotional abuse edition.
22: But it's part of nature's terrifying majesty!
This is really where we need will. I suspect this is not as uncommon as we'd hope. It's probably not that uncommon in intact families.
But remember, kids: if it breaks it's tragedy, if it bends it's comedy.
The terrifying majesty is, I'm sure, much of the thrill for that kind of parent. "All shall love me and despair!", etc.
Miserable wretch! You shall love me!
25: You could inspire epic drama in the Greek style!
Who wouldn't want that?
I love that he gets her age wrong midway into his tirade about how thoughtless she is.
28 is one of the reasons I'm not convinced of the authenticity of this. That, and the fact that he says something about "finding a phone" or something, as if he had to shlep to the corner pay phone to call her.
Anyhow, how do you make an ass of yourself finding a phone? You keep picking up people's shoes? You talk into a blank wall?
Miserable wretch! You shall love me!
Posted by: Friedrich Wilhelm I
This has long been one of my favorite bits of history.
I love that he gets her age wrong midway into his tirade about how thoughtless she is.
In the interest of maintaining my cheerful mood, I haven't listened to it. But my mother was notorious for rounding up or down on her offspring's ages depending on the situation. Viz: "You're barely a teenager! You can't do X" vs. "You're almost fourteen years old. You are mature enough to..."
Don't you have like, seven children, slol?
Unless you guys have, like, actual reason to believe that Basinger is a bad parent, it's kinda shitty to assume she is because Baldwin bitched his daughter out and the press found out about it.
It's not at *all* unusual for divorced people to fight through their kids; ime, it's often the guys who are the worst. If Basinger did release the call to the press, that's a sign of her being pissed at Baldwin--not a sign that she's treating her daughter like shit. And afaik, the only reason we have to believe that she leaked it is because Baldwin says so.
Of course she could be partly to blame by attacking her ex-husband through her daughter as well.
Of course, and since there is absolutely no evidence that she is attacking her husband through her daughter, let's dwell on the possibility that she's attacking her husband through her daughter. That way, we don't have to admit that Baldwin is a fucking abusive nut case who's probably coked out of his mind. No, wait, he's still a fucking abusive nutcase.
What does it say about Kim Basinger that she could give birth to a daughter that would inspire that kind of anger?
Talk about the cycle of abuse!
Alec Baldwin, on the other hand, was wonderful in The Cat in The Hat, so I think we should at least give him the benefit of the doubt.
It's not at *all* unusual for divorced people to fight through their kids; ime, it's often the guys who are the worst.
How many divorces have you been through, B?
But very funny. Attention must be paid.
The plural of anecdote is Baldwin?
26, 32: Not Nietzsche and the horse? I give up.
44: I did say "ime." And I'm not aware of some women's group that's anything like the men's rights jerks.
46: The Golden Girls were pretty bad.
46: You did indeed. I really liked that line, though. That's me: all surface, no substance.
26, 32: Not Nietzsche and the horse? I give up.
FW I was King of Prussia and notable for having an obsession with recruiting tall soldiers and for walking the streets and beating his subjects, demanding that they love him.
46: Dunno. Ime, assessing blame from inside a serious relationship is pretty close to impossible, and assessing it from outside harder. Often enough, it's two decent people who remember the various times the other person was indecent to them and none of the reverse. Or two indecent people who were always going to be a train wreck. I don't really see many clear jerk-not a jerk pairings anymore.
Back in 2005 Baldwin, talking about the bitter custody battle over their daughter, was quoted as saying "I'm keeping things in perspective. Not letting it consume me and eat me up with anger as it used to." Doesn't look like that's working out in the long run.
Certainly between Baldwin and Basinger, it's not the former who's looked classier over the years, which is ironic because it was Baldwin who insisted on taking the whole battle public.
which is ironic
? Wouldn't you expect the "classier" person to be the one who didn't want to take it public?
52: I'd expect the one who wanted it public to actually have some sense of what they looked like to the public.
50: I've seen a lot of not-jerky guys turn pretty assholish once there's a divorce going on.
It's not at *all* unusual for divorced people to fight through their kids; ime, it's often the guys who are the worst.
The crazier, angrier parent is the worst. Neither sex has a corner on this market.
Anybody see Running with Scissors? I get the feeling Baldwin wasn't having to do much acting in that role.
54: Yeah, I think that there are probably a fair number of guys out there who have had the opposite viewing experience. A lot of it comes down to whose friend you are and whose experience is easier for you to see as similar to your own, I think.
54: I humbly suggest you've seen a lot of not-jerky masks come off of assholes.
What's wrong with me? 58 s/b 54.
Well, someone's got a case of the pimp skitters.
59: Maybe, but really, divorce brings out the asshole in people. I've said before that I had the friendliest, most civil divorce imaginable, and honestly, there's nothing in my life that I'm prouder about. But lord knows I've seen an awful lot of ugly divorces, and the not-jerky masks came off everybody involved.
whose friend you are and whose experience is easier for you to see as similar to your own
This, absolutely.
63. If this is too personal, don't answer Apo. But did were you petitioner or respondent? My divorce was pretty civil, but I felt like it took super human strength on my part to make it so.
When Ogged and I got divorced, it just made the sex hotter.
We didn't involve lawyers and did it all ourselves, but the divorce was certainly her idea and not mine, and yeah, it took superhuman strength to keep it civil. That's why I'm proud.
66. Ditto, cheers to you.
Pulling that off successfully was the first time I really knew that I was an adult.
I don't have either of your experiences, but I would be proud to divorce either of you.
Yeah, I'm in the "this vm reminds me of every conversation my mom and I had between when I was six and when I was 17" camp. Awful, but not particularly shocking from a parental standpoint.
If Basinger did release the call to the press, that's a sign of her being pissed at Baldwin--not a sign that she's treating her daughter like shit.
Let's get real. Releasing the call to the public IS treating the kid like shit as is leaving the VM itself. Kim and Alec need to hang out near armed psychotic college students for a bit, the kid would do better as an orphan.
re 64 and 66: I apparently do divorce better than marriage, given the uptick in both of my ex-wives' regard for me after we were divorced.
I think every divorcing couple should be forced to watch The War of the Roses, twice, before doing anything else on their divorce.
I don't think I know any parent whose private conversations with his/her children could withstand public scrutiny out of context.
Don't you have like, seven children, slol?
Fewer than that, but more than none.
"It's not at *all* unusual for divorced people to fight through their kids; ime, it's often the guys who are the worst. "
Bitch:
That is a ridiculous statement. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard "His kids need to know ...." [fill in - "he loves new gf more than them" or "that he doesnt want them to have new shoes" or whatever other thing they are upset about.]
Being an ass or a bad parent as nothing to do with gender.
Apparently this is legit. Baldwin's statement is
"In the best interest of the child, Alec will do what the mother is pathologically incapable of doing ... keeping his mouth shut and obeying the court order. The mother and her lawyer leaked this sealed material in violation of a court order. Although Alec acknowledges that he should have used different language in parenting his child, everyone who knows him privately knows what he has been put through for the past six years."
"The mother." "Different language." Calling his daugher a "vile little pig" was just a poor choice of words...
All that is really important is that he is really good in 30 Rock.
The answer is obvious. Stephen should convince him to accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior. Duh.
Agree with will. We have little information about his parental skills, but excellent information about his work on 30 Rock. (Also, I had long hated Fey, but she is Teh Awesome.)
Of course Fey is excellent. She is a UVa grad!
73: Can you describe for us, other than "joke", a context in which leaving this message would be okay?
Divorced parents who manipulate each other through the children make me violently angry.
83: If your kid really is really irritating.
"Divorced parents who manipulate each other through the children make me violently angry. "
Agreed. But divorce doesnt suddenly make them bad. I'm guessing they did the same thing when they were married.
Is Basinger a notoriously crazy/bad mother? Because I imagine there are plenty of steps along the way to the judge where this recording could have been leaked, and can't imagine why anyone would take Balwin's ludicrously sanctimonious statement seriously.
83: Maybe the kid's really like that.
Seriously, that phone call was obviously a terrible thing to do, but judging people on what might be their single worst moment -- in the absence of any context -- is kind of, I don't know, judgemental.
I don't doubt that Alec Baldwin's a jerk; I don't doubt that any actor is a jerk, but this message by itself doesn't tell us very much about him.
85.1 pwned by 85 leaving me with everything following "seriously."
That can't be good.
That would be a dramatic case of auto-pwnage. But I don't see how you can divide a single sentence post up like that.
Dammit. I'm leaving my errors uncorrected from now on lest I get caught in a feedback loop of typos.
I agree with 88. I hate how one incident is so often used to extrapolate one parent's parental ability to all occassions.
As lawyers, we try to give the judge something to hang his or her hat on, even if it is just one incident.
(I have absolutely no clue who Alec Baldwin is, nor Kim Basinger -- she sounds like she ought to be a sewing machine; he is not Mel Gibson I'm pretty sure -- so I'm not sure what I can do on this thread besides pwnage arbitrage.)
I seem to recall some crazy behavior on her part, though I don't believe it was parenting related. And google gives me the following:
Baldwin recently took Basinger to court in a bid to extend his custody terms after the actress allegedly violated a court imposed settlement, and now little Ireland's grandmother is speaking out about the court battle, which has now been settled. Ann Basinger admits she sides with Baldwin, who she calls "wonderful," adding, "My heart is sad for Ireland. She's the one that's suffering the most. All this is killing her. "I think Kim has tried to alienate Ireland from her father. Alec loves his daughter with all his heart. He really is a family man."
I don't know if I buy mom's claims. I don't particularly believe Bassinger leaked it.
He could be bipolar and having a little episode. I can't really think of any other excuse. If it's something like that, the kid shouldn't really be in his care, anyway.
I know! Maybe I could point out other peoples' misspellings and grammatical slip-ups! Ben's not around is he?
I don't doubt that Alec Baldwin's a jerk; I don't doubt that any actor is a jerk, but this message by itself doesn't tell us very much about him.
Wow.
It tells me that the most important person in Alec Baldwin's life is Alec Baldwin by a wide, wide, wide, wide margin. And that the second most important person in Alec Baldwin's life is also Alec Baldwin. And that the third most important is neither his wife or his daughter.
94 -- This quote relies on a weird understanding of the term "family man".
As an eleven year old, my father bestowed upon me the affectionate nickname "fucking selfish little pig." And we had a running gag about him flying places to spend a whole day with me, while in reality, he lived upstairs and avoided me at all costs. So, you see.
(Just to clarify, I don't think anything's necessarily wrong with oneself being the most important person in one's life by some margin, but it's not what I look for in a father.)
87: Most of the over-the-top public lunacy has come from Baldwin, not Basinger. Whether or not his complaints about Basinger are baseless is impossible to tell, though. It's quite plausible that there's under-the-radar nastiness happening on her end, and just as plausible that if (for example) she did impede Baldwin's visitation rights, it was because she had genuine cause to regard him as weird and abusive. Judging from what's in the public sphere my money would be on the latter, but who knows.
I kind of long for the days of Klaus Kinski, when an actor could be universally recognized both as a brilliant artist and as a batshit crazy asshole. Now we have people like Baldwin, who makes us--yes, makes us--love him. He's a vegetarian and hosts Regis and Kelly sometimes, and is a champion of causes, and damn it, it hurts to find out he's also a total dick sometimes. But Kinski didn't care! He was openly a hateful, horrible dickhead!
Is there anyone in Hollywood we respect as an actor without asking them to have a relatable or cool public face?
but who knows.
That's really where I am. As for the phone message: dunno, sounds like an unbelievably ugly divorce. My general sense is that (a) parents under stress say and or do things they wish, deeply, that they hadn't, and (b) ugly divorces involve a lot of long term stress.
for real, though, in high school the coaches for my sport of choice thought my first name was "goddamit."
Guys, it's pronounced "JA-damit."
97: The guy's a movie star. My first assumption with any movie star is that they are incredible narcissists. It must take a huge effort to fight self-absorption off when you're even moderately successful, but when people are kissing your ass day in day out for thirty years? It's not going to make you a better parent, that's for sure.
Sorry, it was "rude thoughtless little pig," not "vile little pig."
104 - I played soccer in middle school with a kid with the unfortunate name "Houfar". Way, way too close-sounding to "Who farted?"
The media has long decided that he is the ass and she is the victim.
You should all know that the media/general public wants a villian. Once that villian is picked, the media will spin to sell papers.
This is not to say Baldwin is perfect.
But what is often gray, the media makes black and white.
102: Now we have people like Baldwin, who makes us--yes, makes us--love him.
What do you mean "us," kemo sabe?
Generally speaking, Mile Davis and James Brown taught me early in life never to confuse liking someone's artistry with liking them. Every political rally I've been to taught me the same lesson about people who support the same causes I do.
My first name actually sounds nothing like "goddamit." I don't know where the confusion came from.
108: Tell me there was a Theodore you got to introduce him too!
Some directors are noted assholes, right? Isn't James Cameron supposedly a dick? I'm pretty sure there are others.
Hamilton's question in 83:
"73: Can you describe for us, other than "joke", a context in which leaving this message would be okay?"
This depends on what you mean by "okay." I said this: "I don't think I know any parent whose private conversations with his/her children could withstand public scrutiny out of context."
I wasn't describing Baldwin's message as "okay." If you want me to describe a context in which Baldwin's diatribe was "normal" or "human," I think I can do that.
117: Baldwin was yelling at his daughter, not having sex with her, as far as we know.
Most directors can't rap without profanity, but Polanski, he's like Will Smith in that way.
These people are not movie stars, y'all. Reubens is an actor, yes, but not since Pee Wee's Big Adventure has he led a major motion picture.
he said he was going to spend a WHOLE day.
He could be bipolar and having a little episode. I can't really think of any other excuse. If it's something like that, the kid shouldn't really be in his care, anyway.
Now, now. If his illness isn't well controlled by medication, maybe not--especially if he does shit like this--but I don't think we want to go so far as to start taking children away from their sick parents.
Isn't James Cameron supposedly a dick?
Are you saying you respect Cameron as a director?
120: Well sure. And how long did we have to wait between Days of Heaven and The Thin Red Line?
I tend to think all pairs in a relationship (or exes) are about equally jerky to each other. There's a million little ways to cut each other, that the person making the brash obvious dickish moves is probably dishing out exactly what they're recieving.
I'm in the camp that finds this message beyond the pale and inexcusable.
David O. Russell certainly appears to be a big jerk.
Everyone should read a transcript of themselves speaking at least once in their lives.
The first time you read a transcript of an argument, you cannot believe that your brilliant argument was actually utter nonsense, filled with non-coherent thoughts. Humiliating.
I cannot imagine having to read a transcript of a heated argument with a spouse or ex-spouse.
Wait, Jeremy Piven is also a noted asshole, correct?
The first time you read a transcript of an argument, you cannot believe that your brilliant argument was actually utter nonsense, filled with non-coherent thoughts. Humiliating.
It is a humbling experience, for sure.
I just watched a video of myself teaching, and found it humbling.
It sounds like reading old comment threads.
I can't figure out how a single phone message that's not a physical threat can possibly be "inexcusable."
"Reprehensible," sure, "offensive," sure, "shitty parenting," sure. But come on, it's a voicemail. Taking somebody's kids away because of a voice mail is, like, some pretty extreme use of the levers of the state.*
Now, possibly it's inexcusable to his daughter, but to us, the world at large? What do we know?
128: How would you do with the unfogged commentariat judging one of your cases, I wonder?
* slightly conflates 126 and 95
I think people are wildly underestimating how indecent they've been in particular points in their lives. This is one of those times for Baldwin; I have no idea how frequent they are.
134 - I don't necessarily think the kid should be taken away; I think that psychological rip is pretty hellish on the kid. I do think taking out anger like this on a child is inexecusable, though.
What I find particularly galling is that she's not there provoking him in person. He could have easily contained this anger by hanging up and then screaming his head off at his assistant.
I'm not sure if I'd go so far as "inexcusable," but I think Heebie's basically right. Baldwin's hardly the first person in the world to find himself yelling bitterly at someone, but doing it on vm at an eleven-year-old kid is on a whole other level. Even if he's right that Basinger's trying to poison her against him. Hell, especially if he's right about that.
OTOH, Baldwin is doing his part for the job security of the shrinks and drug dealers of Hollywood, so there's that.
Now, now. If his illness isn't well controlled by medication, maybe not--especially if he does shit like this--but I don't think we want to go so far as to start taking children away from their sick parents.
If he's having an episode of mania or something, then by definition his illness isn't well controlled. Of course it's pointless to speculate. He could just be smoking crack, or maybe he's just an awful person.
Nastassja Kinski is 46 now. Apparently her relationship to her father was not good. Her relationship to Polanski was fine.
139 to B's 123--first para was supposed to be italic.
The daughter's part in this should not be ignored. The little bitch.
I think the only person on record as saying she had a good relationship with Kinski was his costar in Woyzeck.
137: It would be better if it was in person?
It would be more contextual if it was in person. In other words, I used to goad my mom until she exploded, on a regular basis when I was 11 or 12. But this message is basically in the absence of direct provocation.
I can see a heartwarming reconciliation when Basinger and Baldwin suddenly realize that little Ireland has been controlling their lives. I see them looking into one another's eyes with a sunset over the ocean in the background, a passionate kiss, and then they walk together hand in hand as the music swells and then fades.
Probably Basinger and Baldwin would have to be played by younger, more attractive people. I suggest Scarlett Johansson and some guy, or Anne Hathaway if Scarlett is all pissy about it.
146 -- what are you talking about? She didn't pick up the phone -- he was calling her when they had agreed to speak -- a more direct provocation is hard to picture.
But this message is basically in the absence of direct provocation.
Works both ways. No small frame and big eyes to remind you that this is just a kid.
147: Are you saying it's now possible to make the fabled All-Ugly film with Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger?
147: Isn't that pretty much the plot of Irreconcilable Differences? God I hated that movie.
148: Yes, I totally expect people to flip out and threaten me when I can't make it to the phone.
From the link, the Drew Barrymore character doesn't seem like a vicious little bitch.
I wasn't talking about the whole family getting together, I was talking about them dumping the evil kid.
148 - I bet she also gets the giggles and likes ice cream, little bitch.
The movie would be more effective if Scarlett Johansson had a lot of nude scenes which could be blamed in some way on evil little Ireland.
153: Maybe I misunderstood it then.
and always has to use the toilet on trips. daddy's bottles aren't good enough for princess.
I don't have time to get through all of the comments (although I read the first 50 or so earlier on my phone), but am I alone in thinking that Baldwin's message isn't all that bad? Yeah, it was angry, but shit, people get angry at their kids when their kids do things that piss them off--and it sounds like this was the rant of a man at the end of his rope, not someone responding to an isolated incident. Feel free to speculate about my warped childhood.
I imagine it's more like The Ring. Wah, I hate being in a well! Wah!
gets the giggles and likes ice cream
Wow, me too! I wonder if my parents are Hollywood movie stars? Perhaps I am secretly a lost dauphin of some American royalty. I know I always felt a strange kinship for Elizabeth Taylor...
she wouldn't have got into that well in the first place if she'd only wash her filthy little hair.
132: The more time you spend in front of a camera, the more you realize it's basically impossible not to be embarrassed later by your words, actions, or hairstyle, (16:05) however much you think you're making stylish, thoughtful points at the time.
I'm not saying men are inherently worse than women. I'm saying, first, IME, men act worse than women. I suspect this may have something to do with the fact that men are less often primary caretakers and less often have custody. Again, IME, the women I've seen going through divorces (ones they've initiated and ones that were initiated against them) are more likely to try to hold stuff in for the sake of the kids' feelings.
That said, my mom *still* bitches about my dad twenty years on.
I'm not saying men are inherently worse than women. I'm saying, first, IME, men act worse than women. I suspect this may have something to do with the fact that men are less often primary caretakers and less often have custody. Again, IME, the women I've seen going through divorces (ones they've initiated and ones that were initiated against them) are more likely to try to hold stuff in for the sake of the kids' feelings.
That said, my mom *still* bitches about my dad twenty years on.
162 -- is Beefo Meaty (who goes by "Sifu Tweety Fish" at his primary abode) the same entity as Tweety Fish? I did not know this.
162: God, the internet was so ugly back then.
165: There should be no needless multiplication of entities.
I'm astonished that there are people out there saying, "What's the big deal?" I mean, yeah, people can say and do stupid shit in the heat of a divorce and can blow up and get angry. But beyond just loud ranting and raving, he must have threatened his 12 -- "or 11, whatever" -- year old daughter at least 3 times. You'd better be ready for Friday. I'm going to straighten you out. I'm going to tell you all about what a horrible, rotten human being you are. Not only is he verbally abusing her in the phone message, he's letting her know that he plans to spend his whole day of visitation verbally abusing her. (Gosh, wonder why she didn't answer his call... ?) Hell, yeah, that's a big fucking deal.
I'll be the first to admit that I've said and done things in the course of a divorce that I am less than proud of (Apo and TLL, you have my awe and respect!). But I can't for a second conceive of taking out all the vitriol and bile on my child.
139: Even so. My mom was pretty verbally abusive to my sister--who moved out before she finished h.s.--but I think that if you were to ask my sister if she would rather my mother hadn't been in her life, she would say no. I think you underestimate the attachment children have even to pretty terrible parents.
No small frame and big eyes to remind you that this is just a kid.
As Mr. B. and I frequently say, being cute saves PK's bacon.
55: There, there, baby. I haven't forgotten all about you. Only the bad parts.
Do we know whether the child heard the message? Did Bassinger have the child hear it? Or did the child play the message for herself?
Baldwin shouldnt have left the message. But if Bassinger heard it, and then played it for the child, her conduct is far worse than his.
Why are we trying to speculate on ways Basinger *might* be worse than Baldwin?! We have no reason to believe she did anything inappropriate; we know exactly what Baldwin did.
DiKotimy:
We know he left a msg. But we do not know that the child heard it.
173: Baldwin released the tape to gain sympathy? The judge's staff has gone feral?
175: Um, Basinger's lawyer could have leaked the tape without her knowledge? A paralegal or secretary? Her mom? Maybe a distraught Ireland herself shared the tape with some friend who shared it with someone else who passed it on.
Anyway, even if she did leak the tape (which I agree would be poor judgment), how exactly would this make her "worse" than the ranting lunatic who left the message in the first place?!
I can't believe they named their daughter "Ireland."
Sorry I'm not tech savvy enough to make this a hyperlink thingy, but I will say this is probably an idea that suddenly seems a little, well, different:
http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/10/get-a-phone-call-from-alec-baldwin/
Undergoing a degrading experience, as Ireland did with the phone message, is one thing. Having that degrading experience exposed to the world is another. Is the latter more damaging? Personally, I think so.
So as not to completely alienate myself from the decent, upright Baldwin-haters of the world, I will note that Baldwin bears significant responsibility for the exposure of the phone call. That exposure, after all, was a consequence of his actions, no matter who actually released the tape.
I share JM's feeling about names, and noticed that right away too. Just a small thing in this story, but it always registers.
177: Yes, any responsible court will have to note that there is a history of abuse here.
"You're 11? I know you're 11. But you'll be an 11 year old walking-the-dog, no-house motherfucker is what you're gonna be."
As a gesture of goodwill to our brothers and sisters on the Right, we should turn over Alex Baldwin to the French. Then we can make this country safe for Baldwin sprog again and start to put our long, national nightmare behind us.
Is there anyone in Hollywood we respect as an actor without asking them to have a relatable or cool public face?
Robert Downey Jr.?
I think I'm with politicalfootball on this one. I always thought that there was something especially cruel about circumstances in which HRC was cuckolded on the world stage. But my parents occasionally spanked me when I was a child, and the horror--horror!--of those experiences may have warped the way in which I see the world.
I don't think it's clear that Bassinger released the tape, though. I'm sure journalists try to wheedle information out of court staff all of the time.
I can't believe they named their daughter "Ireland."
Bad indeed, but would you have the same reaction to "Erin"? If not, why not? People do give their kids terrible names - there's something to be said for the old French system which made you pick from an approved list.
would you have the same reaction to "Erin"
But "Iran" would be an excellent kid name.
would you have the same reaction to "Erin"?
No, mostly because there are other people named "Erin." "Ireland" is so insistent. The first thing I think of is a series of awkward encounters with unamused Irish people.
Or people referring to the child as "the Auld Sod."
186 gets it right. The most annoying thing is parents wandering around saying "we wanted something Celtic, but everything was unpronounceable except the one we chose." You idiots, you're not Celtic, and the name you chose is just as unpronounceable, because you are surrounded by people who can't pronounce it, because you aren't in Ireland or Wales. Please get your head out of the clouds and give Mair$eacute;ad or Drystan a normal name, your baby is not a toy.
Well I certainly owned myself there. Mairéad.
Or people referring to the child as "the Auld Sod."
No, that's the child's grandfather. IME, the child is referred to as "the little bastard".
Mairéad is a perfectly common Irish name.
Yeah, but Mair$eacute;ad? Weird.
You idiots, you're not Celtic, and the name you chose is just as unpronounceable
I suspect Cryptic Ned may actually be named Ruaidhri or Urianus.
Speaking of Mairéad (pron. "Mareeth" mebbe? I don't know), how do the social security office people and other issuers of identity documents decide which characters they are going to support in people's names? I'm pretty sure common accented vowels from Western European languagesFrench and Spanish are supported, and maybe umlaute. But what about ø and č? What about ligatures? I'm betting if you put a thorn in your kids name s/he is going to have a lifetime of headaches trying to get documents.
pron. "Mareeth" mebbe?
More or less rhymes with parade.
194: Has Björk Guðmundsdóttir ever had trouble getting in or out of the US?
We've had this discussion before. One of my daughters is named Siobhán, haters, and we like the name just fine.
Names like Siobhán and Gráinne are infinitely preferable to stuff like Shannon, etc.
194: This issue appears to be more relevant in the word of sports jerseys. this guy, even though he's a star in Spain, is persistently disrespected by being spelled with a c instead of a č.
Somewhat surprisingly, the University of Arizona actually has "Radenović" on the back of Ivan Radenović's jersey.
Compound faux-Southern names, on the other hand, force your child to develop a sense of self-deprecating humor.
Names like Siobhán and Gráinne are infinitely preferable to stuff like Shannon, etc.
It seems to me that a name that you know will be unpronounceable to virtually everyone is a bit of a handicap, but yes, we've had this discussion before.
"virtually everyone" s/b "monoglot rubes."
monoglot rubes
Excellent band name, that.
198: I think of "Shannon" and "Kerry" as now-traditional Irish-American names. What makes me giggle is cod-historical novels with fiery-haired lasses called Placename O'Whatever in the 19thC.
Keep it up, Alex. Its good for business.
In my case, the monoglot rube would be "Grandpa." My dad can't spell or pronounce unfamiliar words to save his life.
"nyway, even if she did leak the tape (which I agree would be poor judgment), how exactly would this make her "worse" than the ranting lunatic who left the message in the first place?!:"
It isnt necessarily who leaked the tape. It is who played the tape for the child. Baldwin shouldnt have left the message. But if your ex leaves a dumbass, vile message, you do not play it for your child.
If your ex leaves a joint on the table for your 12 year old, do you give it to them to smoke or throw it away?
To be more specific, I'm a college graduate, I had a minor in linguistics, I've made incomplete attempts to learn three different languages, I'm fascinated by orthographies in general and memorized the Irish one at one point, and I have no idea how to pronounce "Gráinne". Granny? Greeng? Grith? If I met an American-born person named "Gráinne Jacobson" or something like that, I would think "You poor thing, and your pretentious parents, and how annoyed you must be at people mispronouncing your name and saying 'sorry, I'm going to butcher your name'". It's a completely avoidable inconvenience.
Siobhán isn't hard to pronounce.
One of the most charming things about speakers of American English is their acceptance of foreign names and the tendency to make a good faith effort to pronounce them the right way. This doesn't seem to be common anywhere else in the world.
If your ex leaves a joint on the table for your 12 year old, do you give it to them to smoke or throw it away?
I smell a third choice.
I know you're kidding, but a decent respect for the opinions, capabilities, and familiarities of monoglot rubes is part of what I would call a social sense. And it's exactly what I was referring to above in judging the Baldwins, and what I thought JM was thinking also.
Because Siobhán is pronounced 'shavonne,' a few people have thought it's an African-American thing (which would be peculiar, on account of us being white and all).
do you give it to them to smoke or throw it away? ignores an obvious third path.
How come no one is paying attention to the fact that in 147 and 155, John Emerson WON THE FUCKING INTERNET AGAIN?
Alec Baldwin is a fucking asshole. His daughter is 12. No one should feel sympathy for him in this instance, guys; when you're famous, and you have people who want to fuck you over (as I'm sure most famous people do), you have to assume that they will use the media as a weapon against you. If you give them the opportunity to do that, it's really your own damn fault. If he believes his fame gives him license to be a fucking dick, I'm pleased to watch his dickness get thrown back in his face publicly.
Has no one considered the possibility that this phone call was leaked by Ireland? That's what I would do if I were her, and pissed at my dad for being a fucking dick. She may be 12, but she's been around reporters all her life. She understands what the press is all about.
What's the problem with monoglot rubes? Aren't most introductions done verbally rather than in writing?
Graunya for practical purposes.
I have no idea how to pronounce "Gráinne"
GRAHN-ya.
218 -- give it up dude, we were both owned by neil in 211.
Joe D: I sent you email this morning which contains two questions. You can ignore the second one since it has already been answered for me by outside agencies.
The inconvenience is pretty minor, actually. Mostly it goes like this:
Monoglot rube: How do you say your name?
Siobhán: shuh-vonne.
MR: Oh. That's pretty.
I still like mine best. So there.
Clown: just saw it. I'm gonna be in the recording studio all weekend that weekend. Though I never like to miss a good uke festival.
Has anyone argued that he wasn't a jerk?
Whereas my life goes like:
Monoglot rube: How do you say your name?
Heebie-Geebie: Crystalgayle.
MR: Oh. That's...Were you raised in the south?
Me: My parents moved there from Palo Alto right before they had me.
MR: Oh. So your family's not southern?
Me: not really, no. Jewish.
MR: Oh.
Aren't most introductions done verbally rather than in writing?
No, a lot of introductions consist of somebody getting a document with someone else's name on it and then trying to guess how to pronounce it before talking to them. And every introduction between teacher and child consists of the teacher seeing a list of children's names and wondering how to pronounce them.
My Iranian honey was telling me just a couple of nights ago that I mispronounce one of the vowels in his name about 90% of the time. It should be an "a" sound as in "awe" rather than "a" as in "happy." I've got some sort of linguistic wiring that makes me use the latter unless I think about it really hard.
^telling me in a bemused sort of way
It should be an "a" sound as in "awe" rather than "a" as in "happy."
Funny. I have an "a" sound in my name that's like in "happy," but I always tell people to pronounce it like in "awe" because the American "happy 'a'" is close, but not quite right, and the wrongness bothers me less if it's not even close.
And, although Iranian women should be shunned, avoided and ignored, when I briefly dated an Iranian woman, the fact that she could say my name properly was totally hot.
So it should really be "A-gged"?
when I briefly dated an Iranian woman
You FUCK! You lied to me. Or something.
I've mentioned her before; I did it to appease my mother (and because she was really cute).
Gawddammit. It's not like Iranian sex was in the offing, but somehow I feel led astray and that I've lost out.
208: My impression from the article/recording was that this was Ireland's own cell phone -- he yells at her, among other things, for not even having the phone on. There's no reason to assume that the child only heard this message because her mother made her listen to it. Again, what's the rush to find theories that make mom the bad guy in this?
Oh yeah, I thought that it was a cell phone, too. Because he says something about her turning off the ringer, or leaving it turned off. Something un-landline-like.
I don't think I'm ever going to be able to pronounce my honey's last name properly. There's a smushed-together syllable that combines an "a" as in "happy" that's curled around an "r" and a "guh" sound. I can do the mutilated Americanised version, and that's what I'm sticking with.
I feel led astray and that I've lost out
You're never too old, Timbot.
mutilated Americanised version, and that's what I'm sticking with
I never held it* against my chickies; I doubt he holds it against you.
* very funny, apo.
I'm sure he doesn't hold it against me. It can become part of an argument against giving one's child an exotic name on purpose.
208: Also, if my ex ever leaves a joint on the table for our 12 year old -- or 11 -- daughter, I would not merely throw it away. I would contact my lawyer and find out fast how to restrict the visitation rights of a guy who thinks it's okay to leave a joint for a 12 year old. Which, you know, is pretty much what Basinger did in this case. Please tell me you don't think she did something untoward in making sure Alec did not have the opportunity to "straighten [the little girl] out."
Again, what's the rush to find theories that make mom the bad guy in this?
I think it's just a resistance to buy exclusively into the obvious angle, which is to hear at the tape and conclude that Baldwin is the worst person in the world and end of story. Although the tape speaks for itself, it also doesn't exist in a vacuum.
It was almost certainly leaked by Basinger or at least with her blessing in order to damage Baldwin (I think that if her lawyer or staff leaked it against her will she would do well to search for a new lawyer and to sue the old one, and I have even more faith in the integrity of the courts when it comes to protecting the privacy of individuals). It's virtually impossible to spin doing this as something that's good for the child -- take it to court if you have to, but don't drag the dispute into public. What that says to me is that she wants to hurt her ex even if it hurts her child too, which is basically what Baldwin's tape says to me, only with more gratuitous profanity.
I don't think any of this is incompatible with believing that Baldwin is an abusive creep with anger problems and probably a lousy parent. But the leak seems to be calculated to make people believe 'Baldwin is the only person in the wrong' and I always assume that calculated leaks are intended to mislead. So.
Di Kotimy:
I wasnt assuming anything. I was asking the question. I've seen this kind of thing often enough to know that these things do not occur in a vacuum.
I am always amazed at how after separation, suddenly, the children are in horrible danger if left with the other parent.
I get that. But I've also seen enough of the dynamic where if a guy is indisputably shown to be an abusive jerk, the knee-jerk reaction is to blame someone else. It doesn't always take two to tango, and to me the effort to speculate about things that might have happened that could make Kim a bad person, too, serves to minimize what Alec undeniably did.
247: Your reasoning here seems a bit bizarre. Basically you seem to be saying that failing to leap to conclusions and judgment about the case is essentially to "minimize" Baldwin's actions.
Maybe I was unclear. What I'm saying is that we know what Alec did. Speculating about what Kim may or may not have done, when we don't really know, seems to minimize Alec's conduct by shifting the attention off of him. Sort of, by proxy, like the little kid who gets busted for scribbling on the walls and defends himself by telling mom that little sis broke a vase. Or something.
I'm not sure I can explain this terribly well. It's like the effort is to "redeem" Alec by "proving" he's no worse than Kim. I don't see how anything she could possibly have said or done could ever justify Alec's conduct so I don't see the point in trying to come up with theories about what she could have said or done.
And maybe what rubs me most wrong about it is that the "what Kim may have done" theories have tended to be framed as "what she did was worse."
In my mind, when you start saying things about one parent's visitation being minimized or eliminated, then you have to look at the other parent as well.
There is a difference between saying that someone's action was stupid or bad and saying that, as a result of that action, they should not get to see their child.
In a divorce, these things get magnified, when they would be forgotten or never brought up if the couple was married.
If parent-child contact was elminated whenever a parent does something stupid, no parent would ever see their own children. Except my sainted mother, of course.jk
249: What I'm saying is that we know what Alec did.
We know about at least one of his actions. Will's basic point is that to interpret and judge the action, you need context. Basinger's possible actions are inescapably and necessarily part of that context. Not that anything we say here matters that much, and I guess I don't find speculating about it all that worthwhile beyond saying "we don't really know much" and "Baldwin sure isn't looking great so far, for whatever that's worth," but if you're going to have conversations about it I doubt there's much of a way around this.
Having said that, I agree with you that talking about how Basinger's actions are potentially worse than Baldwin's is overshooting the mark, and I can't say I'm especially persuaded by the line of reasoning that having this incident publicized would be worse than the initial incident itself.
You know, when a father chooses to leave that kind of message for his preteen daughter, including therein the threat that he will subject her to a more extensive tirade in person, then it seems completely fair to give some consderation to whether it's in the child's best interest to be spending time with him now. At least not extensive, unsupervised time.
And if I'm the judge, I'm going to be more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt if he steps up, says, "I was totally out of line, I'm getting some help with my rage issues, this won't happen again." If he walks in saying, "Uh, well maybe it was poor word choice. But you should hear what *she* did..." I would not be impressed.
To clarify a dead horse, the publicizing of the event does not matter to me.
The question that I had was how was the child exposed to this event.
I suspect that many parents have said things to their children that would not hold up very well if transcribed and scrutinized. Rarely, does one incident make someone a bad parent who shouldn't see their children.
Please do not forget that keeping a child away from the parent has consequences as well.
To clarify a dead horse
WORST GHEE EVER
If Ireland survives, she'll be pretty street-smart. Drew Barrymore and Chynna Phillips are role models.
If the haters around here have any spare Iranian women on their hands, frex O**e*'s hott cousin or maybe *s***o**o*'s inlaws, and if they aren't into so-called "relationships", send them by. Insofar as I have any heterosexuality left I think that they're the most attractive.
On pronunciation, spelling makes things worse. My son had a primary school friend named S/ithapou S/omboumkhan. The kids all learned his name orally (Sitapoe Soobaconn) , and every year they heard the new teacher garble the name off the class roster. It's not just the first time, either -- once they'd seen the name spelled, they never could hear it.
His original nickname sas "Sit", but he changed it to "Seth" because his basketball teammates were given technical follows everytime they yelled at him.
I'm with Chopper (158). Apparently many of you have not been a child in the midst of a divorce. You can get upset about his tone, etc., but here is what Baldwin would have said in a calmer state: "You may be 12, but in the course of my divorce from your mother you have witnessed many adult things. For better or for worse, that's life. In terms of maintaining a relationship with me, being 12 is not an excuse for not making an effort. You have to act like an adult when it comes to our scheduled phone calls, and forgetting about them or allowing your mother to interfere. Just because you are 12, it doesn't hurt me any less when I make an effort to call and you are unavailable."
I'm really surprised that people (1) assume that a 12 year old has no resiliance whatsoever and (2) seem to think that, even if Baldwin had been less harsh, he has no right to reprimand his child.
Alec Baldwin is a slave to his daughter, people.
257: I'd vote for something more along the lines of, "Hi honey. It's 10 o'clock and I was really looking forward to our call. I'm disappointed that you weren't there and I'm a bit concerned that this seems to be happening alot. I'll be flying in Friday to see you -- why don't we spend some time then talking about what's going on." At which point he might, in person, want to emphasize, "You're almost 12 now and your getting to be old enough to start taking some responsibility for your own actions. I know things between Mommy and me have been pretty bad, and I'm sorry that you've had to go through that. But I don't want to let what's gone on between me and mom get in the way of my relationship with you. I love you very much and I'm trying very hard to be a good dad to you. I'm asking you to work a little harder so that we can have a good relationship, okay?"
I wouldn't tell her she needs to act like an adult -- she's not an adult. I wouldn't insert a comment about mom interfering -- that may or may not be the case (though, if it's a scheduled call and mom isn't making sure the daughter takes care of it, that's not unfair), but ultimately the child does not need to be triangulated into the battle between mom and dad.
I don't know that anyone's said it was okay for the little girl not to answer the call. But whatever reprimand was called for, dad's shock and awe approach to parenting wasn't it. But I'll stop now. I'm taking this much too personally...
Clarification -- when I say "not unfair" above, I mean it's not unfair to characterize that conduct as interference, not that the conduct itself is not unfair!
260: I don't know that anyone's said it was okay for the little girl not to answer the call.
I'll say it: it was okay for the little girl not to answer the call. Maybe she had forgotten to turn the phone on (from what he says, he seems to have been calling her on a cell). Or had accidentally left it somewhere. Or any number of other possibilities. These would seem like pretty routine uncertainties to me no matter whom you're calling.
Why are we trying to speculate on ways Basinger *might* be worse than Baldwin?! We have no reason to believe she did anything inappropriate; we know exactly what Baldwin did.
::cough::sexism::cough::
Maybe I was unclear. What I'm saying is that we know what Alec did. Speculating about what Kim may or may not have done, when we don't really know, seems to minimize Alec's conduct by shifting the attention off of him.
Seems, nothing.
But if your ex leaves a dumbass, vile message, you do not play it for your child.
Agreed. And as has been pointed out, there's no reason to believe that's what happened.
If your ex leaves a joint on the table for your 12 year old, do you give it to them to smoke or throw it away?
You throw it out. How is this relevant? And even if you leave it for the kid, that doesn't in any way excuse or mitigate the ex's behavior, which is the issue at hand here.
I still say that little Ireland is a devil child who's controlling everything.
Alec Baldwin responds to your comments:
"Naturally, it is not best for a parent to lose their temper with their child. Everyone who knows me privately knows that I have endured a great deal over the last several years in my custody litigation. Everyone who knows me privately knows that certain people will go to any lengths to embarass me and to disrupt my relationship with my daughter.
"In such public cases, your opponents attempt to take a picture of you on your worst day and insist that this is who you are as a person. Outside the doors of divorce court, I have friends, I have respect from people I work with and I have a normal relationship with my daughter. All of that is threatened whenever one enters a court room.
"Although I have been told by numerous people not to worry too much, as all parents lose their patience with their kids, I am most saddened that this was released to the media because of what it does to a child. I'm sorry, as everyone who knows me is aware, for losing my temper with my child. I have been driven to the edge by parental alienation for many years now. You have to go through this to understand. ( Although I hope you never do.) I am sorry for what happened. But I am equally sorry that a court order was violated, which had deliberately been put under seal in this case."
Anger is OK. One does try to keep one's shit together, but all parents do lose patience with their kids.
If Baldwin had made the exact same shouty call but without the name-calling, he would almost come off pretty sympathetic. He sounds in the call like he's in genuine pain over what he perceives as losing his daughter. Has to be near the top of the worst personal tragedies list, doesn't it? Even if I shouldn't wonder she won't pick up the phone.
BitchPhd:
You were the one who made this about gender. You said that men act this way.
I will repeat that we do not know how the child heard the message. To my knowledge, we do not even know if the child heard the message. I asked those questions because I didn't know the answer.
"even if you leave it for the kid, that doesn't in any way excuse or mitigate the ex's behavior, which is the issue at hand here"
Your quote. It absolutely is the issue at hand. Baldwin never should have left the message. But if she played it for the child instead of saving it to deal with it wth the courts or with Baldwin, then I think that conduct is worse.
The issue in this situation is your conduct that impacts the child. Baldwin could have said all of these things and it would have meant nothing if the child never heard it.
I frequently use the sex example. If your spouse sleeps with other people, that makes them an adulterer. It doesnt automatically make them a bad parent.
267: Chill out, Will. I didn't say men. I said, in my experience. Which is worth nothing other than that. And the whole speculation about Basinger hinges on that IF, which we have no reason to suspect other than the suspicion that gosh, if he's so awful, maybe he has a reason to be or some shit like that. And given that he left the message on the child's cell phone, well, if the girl heard it, that's his damn fault.
Here, have some underwear.
BitchPhd:
Sorry. I am perhaps overly sensitive to the implication that women are inherently good parents and men not so much.
And even if you leave it for the kid, that doesn't in any way excuse or mitigate the ex's behavior, which is the issue at hand here.
Give me a break. Shorter B: "Fuck the best interests of the child, the important thing is to focus on what the man did wrong." Ah, the maternal instinct.
270: Give *me* a break. We aren't investigating this situation. We aren't the judge in some custody dispute. We don't know anything more than that he left a shitty message on his daughter's cell phone. Inasmuch as that's *all* we know, it's a bit fucked up to jump to the speculation that well, if he's being an asshole, then somehow his ex wife must be an asshole too.
Inasmuch as that's *all* we know, it's a bit fucked up to jump to the speculation that well, if he's being an asshole, then somehow his ex wife must be an asshole too.
In fact, most people haven't said she's an asshole, too. We've said, instead, "Dunno." Because, as you note, we don't know much. We have one frustrated, angry phone call. Who knows what that means? Maybe he's an unbelievable asshole, and a scary jerk; he certainly comes across as a smug jackass in interviews. Maybe he's abusive on the phone all of the time; maybe it was the first tape Bassinger could take to court. Nobody knows. Most people said that. You decided leaving the question open was sexist.
The frustrated angry phone call is assholish. The rest is speculation. And I'm not the only one on the thread who's found the compulsion to speculate a little problematic. Plus, you know me better than to pull this "to hell with the welfare of the child, let's bash men" nonsense. Puhleeze.
Is the real problem that I don't have any underwear for you? I'm sorry. I just couldn't find anything that was special enough.
266 seems about right to me. Despite the over-the-top awfulness of the phone call, the guy is obviously pretty bent out of shape over his deteriorating relationship with his daughter.
The little bitch Ireland is controlling your minds.
"And I'm not the only one on the thread who's found the compulsion to speculate a little problematic."
I have criticized speculation around here. For example, I was a critic of speculation regarding the Virginia Tech victims and also regarding the British soldiers in Iran. However, I criticized that speculation on the grounds that I thought it was implausible - then I offered my own speculation. The compulsion to speculate in both cases seemed to me to be entirely natural and appropriate. I don't get how this case is different.
Seems to me that unfogged threads would be awfully brief if we were to ban speculation on matters outside the immediate evidence.
Without speculation or analogies, what's left besides cock jokes?
All you haters who were down on me for saying that speculating about Basinger was sexist, have a lookseee.
The fact that a raving lunatic made an argument doesn't discredit others who made it. It should probably lead one to pause and think though.
