Did he offer you a wine from his extensive collection for your trouble?
You didn't crush his spirit and put him in his place? He's got to learn that there are lots of assholes in the world.
"The weather's always like this here, kid. That's why houses all cost two million bucks and you never see your dad. And your legs are sinking when you swim breaststroke. Eat this wave."
3 would be better if I work in the fact that he feels comfortable making small talk because his dad's never around so his mom treats him like an adult....
Maybe he'll turn out like that kid from Funeral Procession of Roses.
Yeah, you're probably faster (longer legs), but was he at least more successful with the lifeguard?
Or from Harold and Maude.
Actually, the weather today is much nicer than it was yesterday, so the kid's comment wasn't as vacuous as ogged, embittered by his comparative lack of romantic success, is making it out to be.
I got a call last night from a friend who's feeling oppressed by all the women throwing themselves at him. He said he was considering saying "How about giving me a little of the thrill of the chase?"
As for the substance of your post, young Ben, remember the microclimates: what it was like in Palo Alto yesterday and today doesn't tell you what it was like in the rest of the area. Indeed, today a man at the pool was complaining about this very fact: he left his house, probably about ten miles from the pool, with the weather beautiful, but found the pool windy and a bit nippy. The spot the pool is in is almost always significantly windier and cooler than the surrounding areas.
The phenomenon of microclimates, while perhaps vitiating the force of the particular example I put forward, only strengthens that of my conclusion, viz., that the kid's comment was meaningful.
So wrong you were right. In any case, I politely agreed with him, since the weather has taken a turn for the warmer lately.
Although the phenomenon of microclimates doesn't really tell us one way or the other whether the kid's comment was meaningful, since a today/yesterday comparison would only be significant if he were comparing the same locale (unless he just traveled and was noting something about that).
11: Does that connect to something in some oblique way?
You'd like my oldest son, Ogged.
I already like him, Apo.
11: Does that connect to something in some oblique way?
To being embittered by lack of romantic success.
17: Some guys have beautiful women crowding them from every which way; Ogged gets hit on by a ten year old boy at the pool. At least he was precocious.
You failed to ask the kid about his neglected Mom's hottness. "Kid, if she wasn't your mom......"
My 2.5-year-old-grandnephew calls me "Johnny". I'm supposed to be Uncle John, but he picked it up from my sister I think.
20 (a) makes a good point.
I exclusively get hit on by objectively hott guys who are dumb. It is sad.
22: Sounds like you might be intimidating to non-arrogant guys. We've probably had this discussion before.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Tried to figure it out last weekend, ended up screwing a 24-year-old model.
Complaining is silly; I'm not complaining. But I am unattractive enough I should be able to weed those guys out and get right to the smart, complex ones.
Off-topic, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the entire lab I'm working in is a giant waste of money and has no reason to exist, and that my boss has an almost bizarre aversion to planning and making decisions. With the result that all the decisions that get made are made by people who are not qualified or knowledgeable enough to make decisions (that is, graduate students), with the full knowledge that several months down the road we will finally realize what the proper decision should have been, and will be embarrassed trying to justify our actions. And our boss should be embarrassed at this proof that he was not actually paying attention to the decisions, but in fact he will just act as if nothing matters one way or the other. I hope I'm the last student ever to work with him.
I'm just giving you a hard time, AWB. But is there such a thing as 'so beautiful smart guys get nervous'? I am skeptical.
30, I think it would be better stated as "so seemingly un-nerdy that nerdy guys get nervous".
is there such a thing as 'so beautiful smart guys get nervous'?
I don't know about smart guys, but I think some woman are so beautiful that only assholes will hit on them. It takes a certain level of presumptuousness or covetousness, after all.
They don't have to be beautiful. In fact, it would be ideal if they weren't. And I'm a big nerd; I'm just comfortable with it, I guess.
Of course, some assholes are smart guys. Some of them are even complex, especially if they turn out to be bipolar.
34: God, I can't talk. I meant, is there such a thing as "this woman is so beautiful, that I, as a smart complex guy, shy away from talking to her?" Or what 30 said. Unfogged could answer that question.
Complex != psychotic, or at least it shouldn't all the time.
Maybe complex, shy dudes are particularly romantic in their sexual attraction in a way that unshy, relatively uncomplex dudes are not.
Agree with ogged in #31 and #33. It's not just assholes, though--just super-confident, which tacks well with asshole.
29: Why, CrypticNed, I didn't know you were part of our institute! Why haven't you let me know whether you'll be attending the guest lecturer lunch on Wednesday? And what's up with all those trips to the ice machine when my lab is at lab meeting?
I've known girls who complained of being unnecessarily attractive in a conventional way and therefore only being hit on by super-confident assholes. What they did to combat this problem was wear something defiantly unstylish, as a sort of message that says to nerds, "Nerds welcome here", and says to chets, "This chick might be trouble, her shoes are weird".
If you're already defiantly unstylish, I don't know what to tell you.
36: is there such a thing as "this woman is so beautiful, that I, as a smart complex guy, shy away from talking to her?"
No, but there's such a thing as "so beautiful only unusually confident guys will take a shot," and thus higher percentages of arrogant, unreflective and/or physically beautiful people in the pool of guys under discussion.
It must be awful simultaneously to be so attractive that only people to whom one is unattracted hits on one, and utterly incapable of hitting on those to whom one is attracted.
AWB, try wearing glasses? I know it sounds stupid, but I think that IME glasses-wearing does slightly filter for smart and complex.
47 gets it right. I don't see how this is a problem anyway, unless AWB takes an exclusively passive role in the hitting-on process, which seems unlikely.
I think what's odd, though, is it's not like I get the sense that the normal-looking, bright sorts of gentlemen I meet are into me but too shy to do anything about it. They're all into beautiful dumb girls. I'm not intimidating them out of doing anything; they're really just not that into me. I am attractive to guys who would probably think of me as "chocolate eaten in the closet," as a girlfriend of mine calls it--something you know is going to be delicious, but in a perverse and possibly self-destructive and shameful way.
Oh dear, it seems that you may be attracting the men whose primary interest is "wild crazy-chick sex".
Wait a minute, that may not be a problem either.
51: Yes, that seems about right. Last weekend's gent kept saying, "I like you because you're so FUN," which could very well translate as "fucking INSANE."
48: Glasses might help. They make me a bit dizzy, but it's not a bad idea.
Some of the smart guys I've met have wanted to date dumb pretty girls to prove that they are manly enough to get the pretty ones. Years of my life, indeed, have been wasted on watching my homely smart crushes chase beautiful girls who weren't interested in nerdy stuff; all the while, I would be the loyal female friend providing good advice.
Now I date only men who are either slightly dumber than me (yes, I know, it's a tiny pool) or more insecure so that I can dominate the conversation. Sadly, I've never gotten to date a fellow with big ugly nerd glasses--they're all busy Jean-Paul-Sartre-ing it after tiny blonds.
47: And w-lfs-n, believe me, I do try. I am no wilting lily.
Hmm, it seems that there may be more nerds who like to fancy themselves as super-confident assholes than I had thought.
53: The glasses don't have to be functional, surely? Anyway, I hate to pooh-pooh the idea but I think we're probably about fifteen years past the days when glasses would have done any significant filtering.
54: Frowner speaks teh true. I think this is deeply about masculinity. I'm not "manly," exactly, but I do broadcast a sort of Steve McQueenish derring-do that intimidates most gents. Which is perhaps why so many of them apologize for perfectly normal penis size (something previously discussed here as absolutely not done, ever, by anyone).
I do broadcast a sort of Steve McQueenish derring-do
Now you've gone too far.
I'll admit that the one time I was with a woman who was substantially more experienced sexually than me and made no effort to hide it, I felt pretty freaked out and emasculated, and have not wanted that to happen again. It's irrational, but, you know, sexual attraction is irrational.
59: About sex, Ogged, not driving in San Francisco.
I could even say "It's irrational and counterproductive", but that's what happens.
I think glasses would do even better signalling now than in times of yore, because of the availability of lasik eye surgery.
chocolate eaten in the closest? that is fabulous.
44 -- didn't Jackson Browne comment on that phenomenon?
Me and my female friends in math used to joke about this phenomenon:
We'd get hit on by really dorky math guys who seem to be thinking that he's spotted some sort of diamond in the rough. "Y'know, I bet no one's ever told her that she's cute before. I'm the first! Market opportunity! Strike while the iron's hot!"
They'd say things like, "You're cuter than you think you are." (Oh yeah? What makes you think I don't think I'm fucking stunning?)
perhaps why so many of them apologize
a) Madness.
b) Isn't this a bit inconsistent with the whole "I attract the hott dumb non-nerdy non-complex no-inner-life ones" thing?
Yeah, I find that "your ass isn't as nice as you think it is" is much more effective.
I think you said something more like, "I'm like 90% sure that you have a gigantic ass, Heebie." Didn't realize you were hitting on me, though.
What makes you think I don't think I'm fucking stunning?
The huge number of teen movies they have watched containing the "beautiful/plain girl" character who discovers her beauty in the third act and stuns everyone at the prom, etc.
I think I said "too big." Maybe the numerical description would have worked better on you.
67: Ugh. That's gross.
I feel like my situation might be the opposite, in a fruitful way. Guys think, "She is nowhere near as cute as she thinks she is, which means she must have some secret skillz that are not apparent." Instant complex, out of nothing. Your situation makes the guy think himself superior, mine makes him think himself inferior. You are (obviously) hott and sexxay, and I am actually thoughtful and sensitive, but teh m4l3 gaz0rs actually changes us into something else for them? I dunno. The dude brain is a mystery.
67 - Aww, Heebie, it's just because math undergrads are dorks who play D&D. They were simply overwhelmed by your bootyliciousness, far greater than that of any 12th level elven priestess.
Yeah, those nerdy guys are way off. What the serious seducers do is insult women in order to make themselves appear less desperate and make the women feel more insecure.
75: Particularly amusing is the fellow on the linked page who is wondering how to introduce girls he knows already to his newer, meaner, more seductive self. Also interesting how much jargon and scientification, as if by creating a new field of "knowledge" they will succeed with women. Maybe I should hang out in bars more so that perhaps I could see one of these guys try this stuff out--they must hit on the plain chicks around closing time.
Frowner thinks I am smart because she has never hit on me.
So, will, got a little German in you?
There, that was easy.
The only guys I've ever known who believed in the "PUA" nonsense were, yes, unattractive skinny libertarian social-darwinist computer-science nerds.
But it's everywhere, it's all out there. For some guys it's the new equivalent to secret fraternal societies.
It's okay, Will. I really like your left eye a lot.
And I hit on Ogged all the time...he's the exact type of luscious, empty-headed male beauty so irresistable to both Gore Vidal and me.
Brief Googling confirms my vague recollection that someone wrote a book called Secrets of Speed Seduction, which was all about how the crackpot tenets of neuro-linguistic programming could have you pulling chicks like you were Dennis Kucinich.
What if it's just that dudes are into girls who are not impressed by them?
75: Dear god. I'm going to secede from the male sex and start a new one now.
Hurry will, hurry! Start mirroring her movements! Drop your keys and see if she shows any motion toward picking them up!
Make sure she isn't the wingman or the DUFF!!!!!!
85: Why then, I look forward to far, far more dates as I get older and less impressed.
85, probably the dudes who are into you are into girls who are not impressed by them. Meanwhile, the poster of 60 would not be one of those guys.
88: Seems to have helped me. When I was in HS, everyone was amazing to me and I couldn't get beyond one or two actionless dates to save my life.
I think 85 is the fact of the matter. Distancer-pursuer dynamics are irresistable to the pursuer.
63: because of the availability of lasik eye surgery.
I don't follow...
65: The range of Jackson Browne's commentary is wide, I wouldn't be surprised.
75: God, it's a little cruel to say, but there are times when I completely understand why nerds get stuffed in lockers.
God, it's a little cruel to say, but there are times when I completely understand why nerds get stuffed in lockers.
Ogged understands.
A little confidence goes a long way. Plus, if a girl is too into me, then clearly I can do better.
In all semi-seriousness, this is why I prefer women in their mid-to-late 30's and above. They don't want to bullshit anymore. If they like you, they tell you. If they want to jump you, they say so.
They know that their butt doesnt look like an 18 year old, and generally, they are ok with that. Women in their 20's are to be avoided.
93: I do believe we need to refine upon our taxonomy of nerds. IThe libertarian social-darwinist ones referenced above are pretty different from the big-glasses-blond-chasers of my heartbroken youth, for example. One could probably taxonomize a lot by glasses, too--I would expect ugly wireframes on the social darwinist ones.
95: Women in their 20's are to be avoided.
That sentence is just so unbelievably wrong.
Women in their 20's are to be avoided.
Yeah, I don't dig old chicks either.
97:
Should I have added: "until you are in your 50's"?
93 - because there's even fewer people than ever before who are forced to wear glasses by circumstance.
The libertarian social-darwinist ones referenced above are pretty different from the big-glasses-blond-chasers of my heartbroken youth, for example.
Wait...these guys are also big-glasses blond-chasers.
The type of glasses doesn't really matter. The real question is whether he is trying to find a woman he can have awesome conversations with, or a woman he can condescend to. with the latter type of guy, I can't stay friends with him too long.
Ogged understands.
Truth be told, I never beat up kids just for being nerdy. It was the ones who had a lot of attitude for no discernible reason that bothered me; they needed to learn humility.
Plus, if a girl is too into me, then clearly I can do better.
Oooh, this makes me nervous. My own gestures toward flirting are usually so feeble as to be invisible (when I'm not using the negs, of course). But from now on I'll just sweep haughtily by the various objects of my affections and snap at them when they try to talk. "Quiet, you!" I'll say, flicking them across the face with my riding crop.
Women in their 20's are to be avoided.
Even as a woman in my 20's, I think there's a lot of truth to this. Furthermore, a lot of women in their 20's would do a lot better to be single and do some soulsearching as to why landing a man is the end-all-be-all of their life's purpose.
In other words, women in their 20's often need to heal and recover from the horrific gender socialization they've been brainwashed with during their first twenty years.
Ogged beat up kids?
My mental image of Ogged was more nerdy gamer. Interesting how we created mental images of other people we have never seen.
I won't mention my image of heebie.
frowner:
I've found that flirting is more direct as you get older. "I like you. Do you like me?" works very well.
women in their 20's often need to heal and recover from the horrific gender socialization they've been brainwashed with during their first twenty years
...and just screw around instead.
105 nails it. But is also true for men.
Will, you need to join the club. This is everyone else's mental image of Ogged.
My mental image of Ogged was more nerdy gamer.
This is hilarious and deeply hurtful, will. But here's Lab's note after we met.
Wears ponytail. Round booty. tough girl. Mischevious.
108 Screwing around can be totally healthy. Anything goes. She just needs to develop herself as her referee and stop living via validation with male attention.
75: It's so precious. Here is how to get women according to my rules. Next stop: "The women did not listen to my rules. It must be the fault of feminism!"
113 Pretty much, but I've also got scales and froglike suckers on my fingers and toes, enabling me to nimbly scale walls and ceilings. Is why I type so slow.
AWB, this can all be explained by the fact that you're a healthy specimen of humanity. Hot guys look for fitness, in the evolutionary sense, and you fit the bill. (Also, what's the female equivalent of Grizzly Adams? 'Cause that might work.)
115: Oh, it gets much sadder than that.
96, 103: Maybe the key difference is between nerds who yearn to be Chris Knight and those who don't.
99: I think by your 50s one should have moved on to the 17-18 demographic.
For real, I of course wouldn't take anything away from women in their thirties, but twentysomethings are (sometimes) in that magical zone where they're savvy enough to know what they're doing, interesting as people and relatively baggage-free. Those are wonderful things.
118: what does this mean? "They were highschool friends catching up, all 26-77 years old."
117: Huh, SEK. I've actually heard this before, from an excruciatingly hot ex. It was part of a sort-of-creepy statement about how, whenever he's on a train that stops, he imagines, if the only people left on earth were the ones on that car, which would be the fittest one for him to re-begin the earth's population with. The relationship did not last long.
116:
I forgot to mention medium sized guns.
119:
relatively baggage free? No way. They are FULL of baggage. They just don't realize it. That is much worse.
Ogged: "Much less geeky than people thought" should be on a plaque.
(That they acted older than their years?)
Oh, and he calls them "birds". Really, the next step is, "feminism ruined all American women, because now when I treat them badly they have the means to leave, but I've heard that women desperate to escape poverty will marry American men... how do I keep my new bride from changing?"
relatively baggage free? No way. They are FULL of baggage. They just don't realize it. That is much worse.
I second this. My decade can take itself WAY too seriously. Women either chill out by their thirties, or they've got kids, in which case they can channel all that angst onto the baby.
Dude, you all are crazy, generalizing about 20-somethings. I could say some mean things, but I instead will make a joke and an observation. A) Some of our butts are better than they were at 18. B) You're just nuts if you think women or men are nuts at one age and not nuts at another. Nuts is nuts is nuts.
There are a lot of these blogs; frustrated guys take up the "PUA" lingo and start these blogs to document their progression toward playerhood. Generally, as we see in 118, he finds that no matter how hard he tries to be a confident asshole, his newly chosen lifestyle is incompatible with a non-sociopathic human brain, and the women are repulsed.
125: Heebie, what about MEEEEEEE? I have no child, yet I have no perceptible chilling-out either. Perhaps I'm not really thirty-two and aliens have been manipulating my sense of time for their own nefarious purposes. This would explain a lot, actually.
You're just nuts if you think women or men are nuts at one age and not nuts at another. Nuts is nuts is nuts.
Word.
126 - I'm just saying, at some point women have to deal with the inferiority indoctrination society saddles the female sex with.
I personally grew a lot over these past few years, so I'm mapping it onto everyone else with dogged tunnel vision.
128 - I'm thinking. One sec.
Wow. There are a damn lot of YouTube vids on "sarge" training. So triumphalist!
OK, how about this. Some guys spend their teen years learning how to be sexy, socially-adept, charming, fun, seductive, athletic, etc. They often end up dumb and conceited.
Other guys are smart because they studied a lot, but they spent very little time learning those other skills and behaviors. But worse than just being inept, they feel tremendously resentful and blame women for their own problem.
However, my main point is that you're all doomed, and nothing will ever work for you, because the evil demiurge who controls the universe wants us all to be miserable.
130: I'm laughing here, that guy looks exactly like the libertarian social-darwinist computer nerd I had in mind.
124: Isn't the "birds" bit because he's Australian or British or otherwise Commonwealthy?
The rise of internet message boards must provide a field day for sociologists - between this and the "San Diego Creative Investors Association" I can't imagine ever wanting for "at least I'm not that guy" validation again.
130: I'd really like to interview some of the girls these guys sleep with because I just can't imagine the kind of people who would fall for those kinds of lines. I find it difficult to believe that guys like that and women like those really exist and it isn't just a giant put-on. Talk about a guy with the kind of face you want to hit!
126, 133 You don't think there are life stages that loosely describe many people's experiences?
Awesomely, one of the pickup lines advertised as part of The Game is "Do you think magic spells work?" If the answer is yes, presumably the next move is to put on your robe and wizard hat.
121: I'm cheating. Someone tagged that picture of me on Facebook, and when I went to see it -- after all, I'm second-to-Kotsko in the not-having-pictures-of-me-taken-department -- I learned that you're a healthy specimen of humanity.
I have no child, yet I have no perceptible chilling-out either.
Frowner, totally out of idle curiousity, why do you think you're so high-strung? (Not asking for evidence, but more like a historical trajectory.)
I think the lines these guys use are probably fairly effective because it least it gives them something to say other than whatever it is guys say when they try to hit on women they know nothing about.
so we have learned that Frowner hasnt chilled out, Cala and heebie have nice butts, Emerson thinks relationships are doomed, and Ogged isnt as geeky as people think.
Productive night.
141: Is there a pic of us together, SEK? I didn't get tagged, I don't believe. Do I look healthy in it?
OH. That's my FB status. Nevermind. Hee.
I just meant, as opposed to last week, when my status was various versions of "coughing my brains out."
Have any laddies here been hit on using any of the "Game" lines?
139: Sure, but by the time you're talking 20something you're already dealing with a hugely diverse group at a bunch of different life stages.
143: It's true that if one can't make actual conversation, knowing what types of lines to employ and when is the next best thing.
Eh, mostly I was kidding. But I think it's a mixture of family--we're all either depressives or just a bit whackaloon (and which am I?)--being a fattish butch straight woman (with beautiful hair, a nice rack and great shoes, I'll have you know)--and having a career path that's a bit unusual for my class and educational background. Even among weirdos I'm a bit weird, and I say that in all earnestness or however you put it around here.
I've got to sleep and prepare for another day of thankless toil now, though.
139: Not usefully, no. Is the 20-something woman lamenting her missing ass more or less crazy than the 30-something woman whose ovaries have taken over her brain? Is the 20-something guy who hasn't figured out he's not in college any more more or less crazy than the 30-something guy who must have something wrong with him, 'cause otherwise he'd be snapped up?
I've grown a lot since I was 22, but I think it would be a mistake to conclude that all the growing has made me a more pleasant date, or that everyone grows the same.
Sorry to be humorless, but this just rubs me the wrong way. Like not only do I have a sell-by date, I have a 'don't use before' date, and it's certainly not a problem with the men...
geeez of course every generalization can be proven false.
It isnt a don't use before date but rather a open with caution sticker.
148: Did you mean to say "laddies" or is that a typo for "ladies"?
149 - fair enough. But all girls hit puberty and are saddled with the patriarchy and their newly diminished status, compared to when they were in elementary school.
I think it's common to get the hang of being yourself throughout your teens, and then start coming to terms with how society shaped you, in your twenties.
139, 152: The thing is not to confuse lifecourse transitions (which confront people as social facts about the passage of time) with personal growth or self-knowledge. E.g., thanks to the lifecourse, many middle-class people go through a phase in their late 20s/early 30s when everyone they know is getting married, just as in their early 20s it was graduating or whatever, and later it's everyone's having kids. But then this doesn't mean wisdom is growing or craziness abating in individuals, just that time is passing in a socially organized fashion.
155: Yes, but then you're 30, and oh ho ho, don't date those thirty-somethings, their clocks go tick-tock tick-tock, and christ, at 40, you're just better off masturbating.
God, who bit me with the humorless bug tonight. I must find them and slay them.
154 -- oops, yeah, strike the second "d".
(Although if any of the laddies here have been hit on using those lines, that would be an interesting data point as well.)
No, you're right, Cala. At least, it would make sense only to discuss the Catch-22 of being a woman at various stages alongside a discussion of male insufficiency in their decades. 20-somethings are too insecure about their masculinity, 30-somethings are psycho-obsessed with either getting or avoiding relationships, and 40-somethings are too tired to have any actual fun. Or maybe it's not really ever fair.
Like not only do I have a sell-by date, I have a 'don't use before' date,
(Cala, I think this might piss you off more.)
This statement still puts men first. I'm saying, it would do women good to learn to see themselves as a primary individual who is whole and complete, regardless of whether they end up single and alone or not.
Most women (and probably most men, but that's not my point) live their twenties in dire fear of ending up single and alone. Our society (besides John Emerson) has no appreciation for a woman's wholeness as an individual, should she bounce around and never be defined by a decades-long relationship.
161:
absolutely. When generalizing wildly, men are fair game too.
When did we start demanding accuracy here?!!!!
I really do. But I don't. They make me break out and if I keep eating them, I will not fit into my wedding gown, which I am told is the worst thing ever next to ebola.
I'm not sure why the wedding-industrial complex thinks that every woman getting married needs to lose weight. Haven't we already landed the guy?
"our society" and "John Emerson" are members of different classes.
162:
Agreed. Men and women in their mid-twenties are bombarded with the questions of when are you getting married or when are you having babies?
Also the kids thing - we do not have a support structure for women who are not in a permanent relationship to rear kids.
A few years ago I had a really emotional discussion with my mom, about how she'd help if I ended up deciding to have kids outside of a relationship.
I can't get YouTube where I am... someone reassure me. Are these assholes secretly filming the women they chat up in bars? That idea makes me feel ill.
And it's really depressing that women are so vulnerable to passive-aggressive manipulation. Although I'm uncomfortably aware that I occasionally fascinate men by being a snarky bitch whose shyness frequently comes off as dismissiveness (and to be fair, it often actually is dismissiveness.) So I guess it works both ways. But I'm not doing it on purpose!
162: I don't think I really have a defensible position. Just that it was bugging me for some reason when other off-the-cuff generalizations don't. I just should have gone for the easy insult.
Thesis: any guy whinging on about how twenty-somethings are crazy has only persuaded himself of that because they think of him as the creepy old man at the bar and won't sleep with him.
All better!
167:
How does anyone have kids without grandparent help?
I have a friend who got fertilized at 38 bc she decided she was never finding a man. Cute kid. Good for her.
Also the kids thing - we do not have a support structure for women who are not in a permanent relationship to rear kids.
That's not really a gender specific problem. Single parenting...not an attractive option in many ways.
168: I wonder if the effectiveness of flirting comes down, in the end, to an explicit directness that obviously overlays deeply not giving a shit either way.
Cala, that hurts. Really, really hurts.
It was a lifeguard at the pool, not a bar.
169 - yeah, it's a topic that I'm hypersensitive to, so I was probably dogmatic in my language. This was a defining battle for me over the past five years.
172:
Kind of like the advertisement: Hurry, supplies limited!!!!
172: That is, "lines" work because they are obviously lines. They signify obvious interest to the other party, but in such a way that doesn't make the flirtee think the flirter has a creepy flirtee-specific agenda, which means you don't have to do any soul-searching about what responding to it would "mean." This would also explain my original problem, because I'm pretty upfront with dudes, and when it's someone I'm not terribly interested in as a person, he's usually extremely responsive.
171 Absolutely, true for both genders. Just happened to use the depersonal "women" as shorthand.
172: I flirt with a purpose: to let all the ladies know what a catch I am, and make them lament that they didn't meet me sooner.
That said, 178 is an example of me flirting. Make of it what you will.
173: they have lifeguards at bars?
Are these assholes secretly filming the women they chat up in bars?
The one AWB linked isn't like this, but there are some "live" "instructional" videos that seem to be.
178: I'm going to go change my FB status to "crying herself to sleep over the unavailability of time travel."
168: It's a photo montage of stills of the guy with women in public places, so it's not as bad as you're thinking.
And it's really depressing that women are so vulnerable to passive-aggressive manipulation.
If it makes you feel any better, it's not just women. And in any case, it's common for guys to think they've put one over on women who are actually overlooking their obvious flaws in order to give them a chance (or maybe just in the hopes of decent lay).
I wouldnt wish single parenting on anyone. I have my kids about half the time. I live with my significant other. I have lots of family close by who can help.
I love spending time with my kids. But it is really hard to take care of them even with all the support that I have.
I cannot imagine the people who do it by themselves with a very limited income.
183: In alternate dimensions, I make love to all the ladies.
I only hit on women on their 30th birthdays.
When you return their wallets with their ID, right?
In alternate dimensions, I make love to all the ladies.
If I said you had a beautiful wurmhole, would you hold it against me?
They signify obvious interest to the other party, but in such a way that doesn't make the flirtee think the flirter has a creepy flirtee-specific agenda, which means you don't have to do any soul-searching about what responding to it would "mean."
Wow, that's quite depressing. Flirting works best when both people involved see each other as not special in any way, interchangeable with any number of other potential mates?
I guess when you actually like the person, you don't flirt, you do something else. Maybe in this sense "flirting" is a realm separate from "having an actual conversation".
189: Only when I'm wearing my stupid man-suit.
190 - I'd say, flirting works best when it's playful. When one or both parties are invested, while it might lead to a beautiful relationship, the flirting isn't as lighthearted.
It's a photo montage of stills of the guy with women in public places, so it's not as bad as you're thinking.
Thanks! Huh, is that what those guys are doing who come up to pretty women in bars and ask to pose for photos with them? Cree-pee. But I bet a bunch of photos is all he had.
Grendel also has a beautiful wurmhole.
184: It starts in with real video about halfway through. I stopped watching about that point.
193: No, I did better than that. I just haven't had a chance to upload those pictures, yet.
186: Had you but worlds enough, and times...
I guess I've been inappropriately using the word "flirting" to describe more serious conversations. Anyway, my problem is much more important than AWB's, so I anticipate an additional 160 comments inspired by #29.
Anyway, my problem is much more important
That really does suck. My wife spent some time in what IMO was a shockingly bad lab. She took a tech job at a different one less than a year ago. Like night and day.
So it's about time for those of you in the Bay Area to start claiming you've been Warriors fans for years, right?
195: Meh. The only video is of the guy and his friend getting dissed by an attractive brunette. Nothing I'd post if I were trying to pass myself off as a pickup artist.
200: In retrospect, it was probably a mistake to become a Warriors fan around 1994-5. I remember listening to their last playoff game (before this year) on the radio when I was in high school.
You'd like my oldest son, Ogged.
I already like him, Apo.
What's my kid, chopped meat? Hmph.
Women are supposed to spend their twenties wondering whether they'll end up single and alone?
204: that's only the ones who haven't already learned for certain that they will.
They know that their butt doesnt look like an 18 year old, and generally, they are ok with that.
Missing apostrophe. And my ass looks way better, thankyouverymuch.
All this notion about 18 year olds being the hottest is just bullshit. I am quite sure that I keep getting more attractive every year since puberty hit. Y'all mo'fuckers are crazy.
I'm pretty sure I'm more attractive now than when I was 18. However, when I was 18 I looked like I was 12, so I don't know if that's saying anything.
202 -- I am a Sonics fan and not have to spend the next year waiting for the team to leave town.
209 -- I feel like I am a much more capable person than I was at 22, but I am still absurdly geeky, so that may not be worth much either.
I think, socially speaking, I was much more capable from about 19-23.
"Do you believe in magic spells" is obviously lame. The idea that you can level up your PUA powers is as much a D&Der's fantasy as it seems. But some of the stuff is simple common sense, like here. It only seems like common sense, though, if you already know it, and for this extremely self-conscious high school junior, that page and a few others were fucking gold.
Speaking of precocious kids, I was at a gig last week, in a fairly smoky bar. The gig was a sort of semi-formal jam session with dozens of guitar players I know.
Anyway, just at the start of this evening, this little kid -- maybe 8 years old -- pushes through a big group of us in the corner of the bar, and squeezes into a tiny space on a corner seat between me and a friend.
Round his neck he had this little padded case, like a camera case, and he kept fiddling about inside it. I looked down, and inside he had a little plastic lunch box, and inside the little lunch box, was, it turns out, his pet hamster. Complete with bedding and food.
The kid was in the whole evening, he pushed through the throng again at some point, to go and sit in front of the stage in the middle of some howling rock song. There's something incongruous and funny about little kids in pubs.
There are some helpful (if crudely presented) insights in the link in 213. There are also some things that make my skin crawl a little.
I watched the video. Fuck, I knew it! They use girls as their wingmen? I'm in Dublin, and I don't know if it was this specific guy, but I remember my very hot blonde friend getting approached by a girl with "Will you pose for a photograph?" I don't remember what the guy looked like, but I pulled my friend away when he started groping her ass-- I worry about her because being super hot and being overly nice and unable to set boundaries is a very bad combination. I don't think he got the photo. But I had a weird feeling at the time that there was something creepy and odd about that scenario, and the way the girl asked, as if it was other than spur of the moment. Eww.
203: My kid has never called him an asshole.
Was it eb or washerdreyer that asked whether Golden State had a chance against Dallas, leading to a curt "No" from me? I'm available to make investment advice as well.
152: Those ovaries are really powerful. I am not exactly afraid of the ticking clock--my great grandmother had her only son at the age of 40, in 1910 no less; but I do have these strong ureges to have a kid. The rational part of me thinks that I'm not ready and might be a very bad mother. For brief moment I even imagine myself as a stay-at-home Mom. This disappears when I listen to the conversation of most of the stay-at-home Moms, but it is temporarily powerful. (I was thinking about this when Brock was talking about his wife's desire to stay at home; I can't really imagine how powerful those hormones would be post-pregnancy.)
A discussion for later: does anyone think that the lives of women who don't work have gotten less interesting and more child-centric since more women entered the paid workforce. I think that for women of a certain class the volunteer activities used to be more oriented to the public sphere than they are now. I'm talking about the women who had help. My grandmother would never have considered working for money, but she ran a cottage hospital. My great grandmother (the one who had the kid at 40) was not a university graduate, but she was a blue stocking and was very interested in the arts and political life.
219: I think child care has gotten more laborious -- a combination of increased caution about allowing children to be unsupervised, and sprawl making it much harder for children to actually do anything on their own. Buck's on a business trip, so I was by myself with the kids all weekend (which for me is unusual) and you literally can't do anything that requires adult focus unless you've got your kids locked up indoors. For a weekend here and there it's pleasant -- you end up mostly being a kid yourself (Ooo, Native American festival in the park! Let's play soccer! Let's play Crazy 8's!) but a full life of it would be awfully stultifying, and that sort of total care is necessary a lot longer than it used to be.
On the dating front, I never figured any of this out. I always had the sense that guys I ran across were looking for something quite specific, and entirely other than me, but what the hell they were thinking was a mystery.
Was it eb or washerdreyer that asked whether Golden State had a chance against Dallas, leading to a curt "No" from me? I'm available to make investment advice as well.
You can't stop Isaac Hayes, Apo. GS should play the Shaft theme before every home game. (I am absolutely astonished by the series so far.)
Two problems with the age generalizations: (1) even if the generalization is kind of accurate there will be so many exceptions that it's not actually that useful; (2) People can have issues with the patriarchy or society or not fully formed as a person or whatever else and still be great to date.
As far as AWB's dilemma: are you primarily meeting guys at bars? Nerds may just be more hesitant to meet women there. Not that it doesn't happen, but you may get a higher % of really attractive dumb guys in the pool.
I don't really know--I spent my entire twenties coupled up & hanging out mainly with coupled-up grad school friends. The last time I spent a sig. amount of time with single guys on nights when they were actively trying to meet someone was in college. Also, I suspect I'm Chet-proof.
a combination of increased caution about allowing children to be unsupervised, and sprawl making it much harder for children to actually do anything on their own
With some trepidation, since some people think this sense of responsibility falls more heavily on moms, I'll say that in our city neighborhood the kids played among themselves and we as adults had less need to watch them once they were no longer literally toddlers. It was a gradual process though, and I think I went outside when they played outside longer than I had to, in the hopes of talking with other parents.
On the dating front, I'm actually relieved to find that so many other people felt they never had a handle on it. Some discussions here have been so blythe as to leave me feeling like a member of a different species.
219: Part of it, in my experience, stems from the fact that just in terms of numbers, an upper-middle-class woman staying at home is more likely to have friends who are working mothers and so there's just not as many women around to do things. This change seemed to pop up quickly. When I was very small, my mom was always hosting social and local school board events. By the time my little sister was born, my mom was one of the only stay-at-home mothers on her block, and she went back to work five years after that.
The other thing is that there's a tendency to treat "being a mom" as a career, and from my perspective, it seems to be out of a desire to be taken as seriously as the women with careers. "I didn't drop out of the workforce; I made a career change" seems to be the mindset, and so there's a lot more pressure to win at Competitive Child Rearing. I cannot imagine my grandmother worrying about the impressiveness of a preschool on a college resume. She'd say it was silly, and light a Pall Mall.
Two problems with the age generalizations: (1) even if the generalization is kind of accurate there will be so many exceptions that it's not actually that useful; (2) People can have issues with the patriarchy or society or not fully formed as a person or whatever else and still be great to date.
1) I think it has some proscriptive benefit. Dropping gender language for a minute, I think people make wiser choices in relationships when they are not staying out of fear of being single. I don't think you can deal with the fear of being single forever much before your 20's. Therefore your 20's are a good time to deal with it.
2) True...but that still puts being dateable as a priority.
I'm saying, there's useful development that occurs being dateable is not a primary concern. Whether someone actually dates during that period is irrelevant.
s/b Insert "when": that occurs when being dateable...
The biggest issue with generalizations is when people take them seriously.
Yeah, I was actually discussing a particular comment about whether one should avoid relationships w/ women in their 20s. I am not saying women in their 20s should be obsessed with dating at the expense of self actualization, or whatever.
Yesterday I got flirted with in the subway. It was a really strange pickup; the guy was pretty dorky, sort of a clean-cut engineering type, and I couldn't really tell what the hell he wanted from me. He started by asking me about the book I was reading, and then kept asking me about whether I wrote, what sorts of movies I liked. He seemed wierdly detached from the conversation, almost as though he were practicing talking to girls. Since I was very clear about the fact that I was taking the train to see my boyfriend and that he wasn't much of a threat, I played along.
Like not only do I have a sell-by date, I have a 'don't use before' date
It could be worse. I can't even get on the shelf.
222: "you may get a higher % of really attractive dumb guys in the pool."
So you're saying attractive dumb guys hang out at the pool? Interesting.
Dear Diary,
I spoke with an attractive, intelligent woman on the subway today. She was on the way to see her paramour, but I believe I still gained 500XP. I'm really close to levelling up!
You know, way back when on one of the first dating threads around here (the one that spun off that Year of Yes book?) someone was advising making friendly conversation with strangers, even without an immediate pickup agenda, as good practice for being able to get a conversation started with someone you were interested in. Maybe that was what was going on.
Yeah, but I think I made the original comment you were referring to, back in 105, which I still stand by.
The original statement, that women in their 20's are to be avoided, places the focus on men, and is tongue-in-cheeck.
The reciprocal statement, that women in their 20's would do well to take some time off, is the one that I am annoyingly relentlessly harping on.
I didn't actually tell him I was on the way to see my honey. I was clear on it *in my head*, which I find to be more important. I do hope that the practice was good for him, although, man, the subway is not a good place to pick up women.
the subway is not a good place to pick up women
Penthouse Letters lied to me!
Clownae! Put them down! They don't like that.
I have been picked up in a train/train-station -- so it happens. Just sayin' ...
Katherine, I don't go out with guys I meet in bars unless they're friends of friends. I can't imagine reacting positively to any kind of cold line. I get them sometimes and always find them completely baffling and weird, and I suddenly go all Not-Fun. It's not a choice; I'd like to think I could react more reasonably to a cold pickup, but it just turns me off too much.
I can't imagine reacting positively to any kind of cold line.
Not even Ol' Reliable?
Also, fwiw, I met my wife by walking up to her in a bar.
However, I really don't do that -- I think that was the 3rd time in my life, ever -- and I came out with some lame request for her phone number [no small talk, nothing]. She laughed and refused, but luckily it didn't end there.
luckily it didn't end there
The laughing and refusing, you mean?
Hey all you naysayers, I have evidence which suggests that John, aka doctor boy, is actually interested.
Yesterday I was in church and sat in a pew by myself on the side where he normally sits. He was a couple of minutes late, and he touched me on the small of my back as he came to the pew. He also said that he was really tired, so if he fell asleep, I should poke him to wake him up.
He also asked me over to his place to see if I could help him figure out how to move a built-in shelf. He did warn me that it was nearly furniture free and when there he was really concerned to make it look as neat as possible.
214: Poor hamster!
217: I bet your kid has never even given Ogged a phone call. What kind of friend is that?
You should make a pass when you're over helping him move the shelf. A little meaningful eyecontact, some talk about how much fun you have spending time with him, put your hand on his arm, and bingo, smooches. You might get shot down, but that's the perfect opportunity.
Well, I didn't make a pass at him, because we were watching Meet the Press, and I was trying to explain how much of a douchebag Joe Biden is.
Oh, so that's why you wanted the bankruptcy bill information! We probably could have found a source that explains it in terms of expanding the already-ludicrous amount of paperwork doctors have to deal with.
re: 246
Yeah, I wondered if the hamster would be OK with all the noise.
Wasted opportunity, man. Seriously, I was on the "he's not that interested" bench before, but inviting you over to help him move stuff around his apartment is very promising, and makes it sound much more like he's just too shy/unaggressive to make the move. If you're interested, you're going to have to go for it at some point.
Dunno from hamsters, but mice have pretty sensitive hearing, and can hear sounds above our pitch range, so I can't imagine loud music would be fun for them. I'm willing to assume hamsters are pretty similar.
