:40 to :42 doesn't sound too bad. I think decent college swimmer types who are more leg swimmers than arm swimmers can probably do 50s on 1:00 coming in right around :30.
The ratio sounds like you are more on the arm side of things, but that's not always down to weak legs. The aforementioned swimmer types could probably do a painful 5 100s kick on 1:20, and 5 100s swim on 1:05.
Ankle stretches help a lot with flutter kick.
Yeah, I've been doing the ankle stretches, which do help. 30 seems quite fast; those must be some big feet and strong legs.
I think the main problem with my free is that the arms and legs aren't at all well integrated.
IMHO, the better approach is to do very little legwork and focus on your arms. 60-75% of your forward propulsion in freestyle comes from your arms; your legs generally function to such blood and energy away from your arms. Indeed, if you look at long distance races, you'll see very, very little kicking. Unless you're focusing on a very short sprint (100 yds or less), you're better off spending your time working on technique.
I will never race anything (if I race at all) beyond 100 yards. Just don't have the lungs for it. That said, most of my swimming is done with very light kick; but occasionally I do sprint drills and kick for time.
Size 13 and has to cart 200 pounds of man-flesh up and down stairs all day. There's definitely a qualitative advantage to having a strong kick, which I think comes from keeping your body high in the water during non-powerful parts of your stroke. So you may want to try kicking harder during that part?
Also, in the spirit of "a good swimmer is a lazy swimmer", your legs are far and away the biggest muscles in your body, so marginal strength increases are much easier to come by there than in your rotator cuffs or whatever.
Kicking is good for you. Don't be afraid to do fast sets kick, the same way you would swim.
I have very skinny size 10.5 feet. I do what I can with what I have.
This is all occassioned by having tried, for the first time in a long time, the head up swimming drill, and realizing that I was going pretty fast. So I'm playing around with kicking harder and also with how my arm enters the water, but that can be another very very boring post sometime.
"that can be another very very boring post sometime"
Hooray!
Well, you have feedback from von and myself. I guess it comes down to if you want to swim fast, or to swim far. You can work on kicking without a coach, for what that's worth. Just go faster until either you run out of breath or your legs don't work any more.
Swimming far isn't really an option; I really have crappy lungs and always have. Fast it is! Kick drills, here I come! (Anyway, I'm supposed to be a breaststroke guy, but my friend was talking smack about racing when he moves out here, so I have to be ready).
Don't you ever talk to people at the pool?
And remember slol, later this year, we race!
I was hoping you'd forgotten that, what with me getting all lazy.
Swimming far is boring. Besides, who would you rather be? Gary Hall, Jr. or Ian Thorpe?
Actually, I'd rather be Thorpe, who isn't the flaming asshole that Hall is, and has that sweet, sweet stroke, but that's neither here nor there.
I was hoping you'd forgotten that
Not a chance. Train up, or lose to cancerboy. Your choice.
You'll never beat your friend in a 50 with that attitude, Ogged.
I don't want to bring up the "train up and lose to cancerboy" possibility yet, Jake.
Your attitude in 15, that is. Sure, Perkins isn't an asshole, didn't mention his excessive drinking with pride on the Jay Leno show when he was 19, doesn't drape himself in the Australian Flag before races, isn't obviously cheating by having a father who was an olypmian, and doesn't have a grandfather with a financial scandal named after him. But Hall is fast!
It's also true that the one time they raced head-to-head, Thorpe won. But whatever.
Hall is indeed fast. But not as fast as Popov! who is another nice guy. Actually, Hall has a blog-type-thing that's pretty good.
Come to think of it, I do kinda like Hall; he's abrasive but generally fair and honest; Thorpe just has a sweeter stroke.
Popov does seem to be a nice guy. But I read that he had some TV interview where he said that Hall had no chance against him because he came from a family of losers. Welcome to the world of sprinting.
And Hall's blog is not just pretty good, it's awesome.
By the way, I got expelled from law school for screaming that last line ["let's put the system on trial!"] too many times, and showing up to trial in a yellow Speedo.
Roland "Unstoppable" Schoeman, take it from a guy that talks some trash, it only works if you back it up.
Regarding the original question:
Are you kicking with a board, on your side, or on your stomach? With a board :40/:42 / 50 is pretty fast, and disproportionately fast relative to :30 / 50 for the swim. Are you doing several of these on an interval, or is that you can do one 50 yd kick in about :40?
Regarding ratios, it's hard to say. As a point of reference, when competing, I could repeat 100yds on 1:05 intervals, coming in at about :58 (i.e., 7 seconds rest) pretty much indefinitely. Kicking, I could probably repeat 100 yds on 1:45 intervals coming in at about 1:40 (with a board). So that would translate to 50/29, whereas yours is 40/30. I had an average kick. Doing just one 100, in practice and from a push start, I could probably lower the 1swim to about :52, the kick to about 1:25 (maybe slower).
So, in my recollection, Jake's numbers are a bit fast for the kick. There's no way I could ever have done 5 100s kick on 1:20 (which would translate to a 6:40 500yd kick. 5 100s at 1:05 would have been no problem.
I'd conclude strong kick. Probably less "weak" arms than "kick technique is easier to master than full swim technique."
Thanks, phred. I'm kicking with a board and my legs are much stronger than my arms, so what you say makes sense. At the moment (I'm still not in very good cardiovascular shape) I can do one 50 at that pace and rest for, oh, a couple of hours, and do another. And I think your diagnosis is probably right. Kicking isn't rocket science, but adding the arms introduces a lot of complexity that I haven't worked out.
What did you swim, phred? You have me wondering if my recollection is off. I wonder if the card I got for the UCSF pool is still valid...
I swam distance, 200 fly, 400 IM. How about you?
My recollection may be off as well, but I'm fairly confident. Also, my data is more than 10 years out-of-date. My sense is that swimmers have much stronger kicks than before, from the emphasis on the walls. So the ratio may have changed.
In the interests of science, Ogged should get a full body wax and see how his times differ. I'm thinking at least 2-3 seconds would come off his 50 yard time.
Have you thought about amputating your cock to cut down on drag? I mean, it's just a dead weight, really.
the solution to all this- the solution to all swimming related debate and tedium- is water polo. you should get on that.
30: Sprints - 100/200 free, 200 IM (best race EVER!), 100 back. I definitely remember that swimming the 200 back and 200 fly with the same kick that you used in the 100s was a recipe for disaster, so we might both be right. And I guess my data is something like 9 years out of date. Kids these days, who knows what they're thinking.
32: the cock acts as a ventral fin, and keeps your body stabilized about the longitudinal axis.
14. Thorpe is Aquaman?
Isn't that cheating?
34.2: wouldn't that require the cock to be stable as we-
Oh.
Water polo players are big.
Water polo is rough, no joke. A friend of mine of was captain of our high school team for three years straight. Playing with him was like getting in a fight.
Are swimming posts a way of damping the fire when a thread gets too "interesting"? Is this thread simply a way of escaping from Dworkin and McKinney?
Is this thread simply a way of escaping from Dworkin and McKinney?
Gah, 500+ comments on that shit yet again. Thar be dragons.
Quick, someone refer dismissively to the other thread when no one's looking.
they're/we're not necessarily huge. small and scrappy works too. the best advantage is having anger and stress that needs to be vented. i never found swimming all that helpful in that department- flailing in circles feels just like whatever work/school/relationship that caused the anger and stress in the first place.
you've forgotten which way time flows, again, Standpipe
I have to have the least flexible ankles around. No wonder my swimming has always sucked. What are these ankle stretches to which you all speak?
I just sit on my feet, yoga child pose style.
Maybe it's my Achilles tendons that are short.
That wouldn't really matter for the kind of flexibility you need.
I'd think ballet dancers' feet are flexible in just the right way for swimming.
Sit on the floor, bend one knee while keeping that foot on the floor, rest your other ankle on that leg, grab your foot, and rotate it. Front and back are most important, but a little circular action won't hurt.
Front and back are most important, but a little circular action won't hurt.
ATM
50. Oh. My feet are like the ones in picture 5. Do you just keep your feet pointed, then? No flappy-flappy, like in tap dancing? In that case, I should be fine. Maybe the reason I'm a sucktacular swimmer is my ballet-dancer's arms...
Things that are annoying: the hotel cancelling your reservation because they overbooked and even though your credit card has already been charged, you're standing in the lobby 12 hours before your flight with no where to stay.
I FUCKING HATE TRAVELLING.
JM, you might be having trouble because bony people don't float so good. But I imagine your kick would be pretty good; point your toes and try not to bend your knees.
Cala, that sucks. Get them to make arrangement for you at another hotel.
I gained some weight! All of my friends noticed and commented on it.
And insulation! All the best aquatic mammals have some.
I gained some weight!
Congrats; well on your way to honorary Iranian chick status, I'm sure.
I've gained as much as I'm comfortable with, though. I've decided to lay off the bacon for a little while (chocolates, pizza, beer, cream are still fine).
The curious thing was that my credit card had already been charged. I had the fun of calling expedia on my cell while talking to the front desk, and then having expedia call the front desk, and then having expedia call back with a different version of the story than the one I overheard.
But I soldiered on, and the hotel called someone who was due to check in hours ago, who said, "I won't be in, but hold my room anyway" (he gets charged the same either way), and then they cancelled his reservation and gave me the room, preferring, I suppose, to face his wrath should he show up rather than mine right there.
Michael Phelps has gigantic flipper feet the size of baby dolphins.
In her youth Andrea Dworkin was a near-Olympic class swimmer.
62: fuck a expedia, anyhow. I don't think I've ever used them where they haven't messed up my reservations.
Yeah, if I get bored, I'm going to call American Express and make *them* bitch at expedia, too.
I swam the same things as phred.
Ogged, that is darn fast kicking compared to your swimming. How do you do without a board?
I swam the same things as phred.
Ogged, that is darn fast kicking compared to your swimming. How do you do without a board?
I swam the same things as phred.
Ogged, that is darn fast kicking compared to your swimming. How do you do without a board?
Haven't tried it without a board. What's the protocol for breathing when you kick without a board?
70:
Don't.
Flutter kick on your side.
Dolphin kick on your back.
Roll to air or come up and grab a breath and go back down.
70:
Don't.
Flutter kick on your side.
Dolphin kick on your back.
Roll to air or come up and grab a breath and go back down.
Ogged:
Focus on your catch. Leave your arm up front until your snap your top hip down. Not roll. Snap.
I'll have to play around with timing. I don't normally kick much at all, so I don't have a good sense of my catch/pull when I'm kicking hard. And I can't seem to rotate much when I'm kicking hard.
75:
Exactly. That is why you dont have to worry about kicking so hard. Snapping is more important.
75:
Exactly. That is why you dont have to worry about kicking so hard. Snapping is more important.
Unfortunately Dworkin is no longer with us. Word has it that she was a damn good swimming instructor.
I've decided to lay off the bacon for a little while (chocolates, pizza, beer, cream are still fine)
Jackmormon, you know I love you but your priorities are seriously fucked up.
78: The overalls really slowed her down in the pool, though.
I just had a burger with bacon and grilled mushrooms, apo. Mmmmm.
The overalls kept her out of the Olympics.
I had chicken and linguini in a pesto cream sauce and (an entirely locally grown) salad with homemade ginger-chili-pomegranate dressing. All with a lovely dry white Burgundy.
I had a Dworkin sandwich and some carp.
Dworkin's name always looks to me like it should have an apostrophe at the end.
86: Marriage has its advantages, if you marry right.
Mr. Emerson is fine form tonight.
Maybe I'll start making all my comments as couplets.
Take fertility drugs and have quintuplets.
I had chicken and linguini in a pesto cream sauce and (an entirely locally grown) salad with homemade ginger-chili-pomegranate dressing
HOMEGROWN SALAD, BUT THE THREE THOUSAND MILE SALAD DRESSING AND OTHER INGREDIENTS
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE JAMES HOWARD KUNSTLER
Watch how his front arm doesnt start to pull until his opposing hip snaps down. That "catch" is the key.
How do you translate "Jeff Rouse" into radians?
Exceptionally, Valerie Solanas was not an Olympic-class swimmer.
Rouse is a great guy and a heck of a kicker.
Watch how his front arm doesnt start to pull until his opposing hip snaps down
Is that really true of his right arm pull?
He is limping. Sometimes that is a way to get more power.
Virtually everyone is more comfortable on one side than another.
ogged. I am still surprised by your kicking times. You are much faster than I thought. I just cannot get over my mental image of the geeky, unathletic ogged.
I don't think I could kick a 40.
1) isn't the 40 (well, 42) a synthetic time based on doubling the time for a 25?
2) is a 40 second fifty kick really that fast? I remain skeptical. You all are going to make me go to the pool, aren't you?
Sorry, apostropher, but I was eating bacon almost three times a week. Surely that's excessive, seeing as how I like bacon better when it's an occasional treat.
About those feet of Jeff Rouse. I don't believe for an instant that he got that lovely metatarsal curve solely from stretching. That there is careful strength training. We demented little ballerinas used to a) put our feet under furniture to stretch the arches, b) trace the entire alphabet with our feet under our desks at school, but most importantly, c) spend hours doing exercises with giant elastic bands, slowly pointing and unpointing under tension. That sort of toe training is also very good for the small pelvic muscles.
1) isn't the 40 (well, 42) a synthetic time based on doubling the time for a 25?
42 is a real time; I just wanted to be clear that I don't fade with the kick like I do still in the second length of breaststroke.
is a 40 second fifty kick really that fast?
Blazing!
with a board, yes.
Even with underwater dolphin kick, I think it is remarkably fast for a non-swimmer.
Also, will is hurting my feelings. I feel pathetic for bringing it up, but dude, I used to be able to dunk. I'm six feet tall. Come on.
On the internet, I assume all men are fat and chubby and all women are hot. Can't you feel my male gaze?
I can, and it makes me horny, in a heterosexual way.
sshhhhh don't say anything smart or assertive.
. I feel pathetic for bringing it up, but dude, I used to be able to dunk.
Many a bald friend has told me about the full head of hair he used to have; it never, ever sounds pathetic.
Ogged is an Ottoman?!? Here I thought he was Persian.
110
I find it hard to believe that this post is 35x more worthy than Ben's.
Post counts are like golf. So Ben's is 35x more worthy than Ogged's.
And I'll go, but it'll probably not be until Friday. Apparently tomorrow is once again ride your bicycle to work day, and I'd hate to be antisocial.
Jackmormon, you know I love you but your priorities are seriously fucked up.
Apo needs to hunt pigs. The South is overrun with the damn things. It's basically open season. You could build one of those brick grills in your yard that you can splay a whole pig on.
And he should name the pug "Hamilton" and stuff it with eels.
