I spent the 90's (for almost all of which decade I had no CD player) mostly listening to used records -- heavy on the Bob Dylan, and various other artists mainly from the '60s. I remember buying a cassette tape by Radio Head in '92 or '93, and a Michael Jackson cassette around the same time.
When I got a CD player ('98, I think) it was because I found out how much old blues and country was available remastered on CD's. So I wasn't buying much new music then either.
I think I don't yet miss the 90's.
a Michael Jackson cassette around the same time
Looks like it must have been Dangerous. Weird, I don't remember a single song on it. I remember hearing a hit single on the radio, which must have been "Black or White", being surprised that I liked it, buying the tape, listening to it a couple of times, then having a co-worker sneer at me for listening to Michael Jackson. The Radio Head tape I have even less memory of.
even less memory of
...Like, apparently it was not even by the group I am remembering -- Wikipaedia says they only had one record in 93, and that is not the record I bought. I seem to remember a song called something like "I Suck".
It hurts me to see you spell their name that way, Clown.
Round about '96 (oddly at the same time the Clear Channel Act passed congress) I stopped listening to the alternative stations. Not through any disdain (though they could have stopped overplaying that fucking Sublime song any time), but more for the novelty of having moved to a market with a jazz station.
Sure, I still heard a lot of that crap. When "Bittersweet Symphony" came on at Matt's party, I was the one machinegunning the speakers.
When I think about how much radio play the songs on that list received, compared to any comparable list from the 70s or 80s, I think that the 90s weren't so bad.
Clown just means he has a tape of the Talking Heads song.
That list, and the ensuing discussion, confirm for me that I have no idea what happened in the 90s w/r/t music.
Well of course, Ben. You were, like, three years old.
What to me has been missing in the recent discussions of 90s music is acknowledgment that the 3-5 years after SLTS broke represented the only time in my music-listening life that interesting/new/different music was getting a chance at airplay. I know that alt-rock became a throwaway cliche that spans all the way from Nirvana to Radiohead, but that's not how I experienced it (context: 2nd year at college when Smells Like came out; late nights with MTV Buzz Bin; no frat parties; variously boho friends with mostly Anthology-leaning tastes). Primus? Wacky. POTUS? Wacky. Cake? Wacky. Beck? Way the hell out there. And dozens of others I can't think of anymore.
Point being, Nirvana freaked out the music execs, and they just started signing everyone in sight, hoping to catch the next big thing - very much like the British Invasion era. Also, a huge emphasis on chicks who rocked - not bubblegum, and not nec. as sex objects, but actually-interesting female musicians given airplay right alongside the traditional guitarboys. I'm not saying everything was great, or that sucky things didn't win out. I'm just saying, things were changing. The clampdown - by my reckoning, complete by '97 - was probably predictable, but nonetheless disappointing.
What to me has been missing in the recent discussions of 90s music is acknowledgment that the 3-5 years after SLTS broke represented the only time in my music-listening life that interesting/new/different music was getting a chance at airplay. I know that alt-rock became a throwaway cliche that spans all the way from Nirvana to Radiohead, but that's not how I experienced it (context: 2nd year at college when Smells Like came out; late nights with MTV Buzz Bin; no frat parties; variously boho friends with mostly Anthology-leaning tastes). Primus? Wacky. POTUS? Wacky. Cake? Wacky. Beck? Way the hell out there. And dozens of others I can't think of anymore.
Point being, Nirvana freaked out the music execs, and they just started signing everyone in sight, hoping to catch the next big thing - very much like the British Invasion era. Also, a huge emphasis on chicks who rocked - not bubblegum, and not nec. as sex objects, but actually-interesting female musicians given airplay right alongside the traditional guitarboys. I'm not saying everything was great, or that sucky things didn't win out. I'm just saying, things were changing. The clampdown - by my reckoning, complete by '97 - was probably predictable, but nonetheless disappointing.
Yeah, that playlist reminded me of the relief I felt when I finally discovered electronic music.
It's strange to realize that there is now a group of adults for whom 90s music is fun, dopey, nostalgia music in the way that 80s music is for decent human beings people my age me.
Hey, remember how everyone used to say that electronica was going to be the Next Big Thing? And they kept saying it and kept saying it, because it never happened? Because electronica sucks?
Sorry, JM. With tiny exceptions, electronica drives me batty, and I was always worried that it actually would be the NBT.
Yeah, I could stand never to hear "Semi-Charmed Life" again. There was a lot to like about the 90's--wackiness foremost--but much that was just really fucking annoying.
Sigh. I never thought my nostalgia for the Goodwill days would ever die.
I have a bizarre, absolutely unsupportable fondness for "Semi-Charmed Life." Why, God, why?
Electronic music is great if you're on drugs, but I don't get much chance to be on drugs these days. I don't ever put it on to just to listen to it.
Yeah, really, it turns out that electro-acoustic improv became the next big thing.
I spit on Movable Type.
But it spit on me first.
By the time I graduated college, the 70s revival had begun. I was flabbergasted, because I was (just) old enough to (accurately) recall that 70s music sucked.
Exceptions existed of course - they always will - but Turn Around Bright Eyes didn't need another go-round.
The funny thing about 80s nostalgia is that the stuff really worth listening to was not, for the most part, getting airplay. So if you go by MY's standards, you get a lot of shitty music (especially after, say 82-84). But if you simply play good music from the 80s, it's less nostalgic, because most people weren't listening to the Pixies, early REM, Replacements (not actually in my category of "good music form the 80s" but everyone else says so...), etc.
I have a nineties-shaped hole in my ipod. I have alot of eighties stuff and earlier and a decent amount of newer stuff, but very little nineties stuff. Largely because I didn't bother converting the cds into mp3s.
On nice days like this weekend, I sit outside and listen to my ipod on random play through a boom box with my neighbor and we watch our kids. It is pretty sweet.
He has more knowledge of music than me. He identified an albert ayer track this weekend and I didn't think I had any albert ayer on my ipod.
Some electronic music is interesting, but a lot strikes me as maddeningly repetitive. But then I tend to take my music sitting down, so I guess I'm missing the whole point.
Whenever I try to dance I always spill my drink.
Exceptions existed of course - they always will - but Turn Around Bright Eyes didn't need another go-round.
You mean "Total Eclipse of the Heart"? Totally 80s. Thanks for that accursed earworm, by the way!
I have a nineties-shaped hole in my ipod
Me too. Once around was enough. The only exceptions right now are Radiohead and Tupac.
I do really like electro-acoustic improv.
I hear you about the drugs, apo, but somehow, ever since that phase in my life, I've largely been able to revive the relevant sensations and energy without suppléement.
God, if you stop the '90s Grunge revival dead in its tracks, I'll never ask for anything else again.
Turn Around Bright Eyes didn't need another go-round
That's exactly what it needed. (Yeah, we've linked to that a dozen times, and yet not enough.)
You mean "Total Eclipse of the Heart"? Totally 80s. Thanks for that accursed earworm, by the way!
Anything written by Jim Steinman = completely awesome, haters.
I downloaded this triple-album but I'm afraid to listen to it.
But if you simply play good music from the 80s, it's less nostalgic, because most people weren't listening to the Pixies, early REM, Replacements (not actually in my category of "good music form the 80s" but everyone else says so...), etc.
Fair point, and one well made to me, as I was only introduced to the good eighties music in the nineties. But I love a lot of the crap music from the eighties, too. Fuck, I like that fucking Pink Tux song just for the reference to OPs; I loved my OPs.
Why does iTunes automatically separate out a playlist of 90's music? I find that a very unhelpful feature.
I have a nineties-shaped hole in my ipod
That can only be filled by you. Wholehearted, wholehearted.
Hm, early 90s I was just leaving college radio around the time SLTS hit. Very odd moment, seeing something from the subculture I had been part of explode just at the moment I was heading out the door. I remember listening to a lot of indie-ish stuff, some local (small factory, Velvet Crush) some not. I pretty much detested all of the grunge bands--Nirvana was sort of ok, but Eddie Vedder sang like a braying donkey and looked like a young Oliver Stone. By the mid-90s I was living in Chicago with no stereo, just a crappy little cassette player and something like a half dozen cassettes. Liz Phair's Whipsmart, a few mix tapes I had made (don't remember what was on them) and some opera, that was it. Kind of sucked, although Phair's "Go West" became my personal anthem. Late nineties, garage and girl group esoterica--the Shitbirds, April March, the Donnas first record, the Frumpies, basically the same sort of stuff I listen to now. Also lots of sneering at the "ska" craze.
I was aware enough of what was getting played on "alternative" radio that I recognize most of the songs in the 90s list. About a half-dozen of them were songs I liked, though I think I only own a record by one of the artists (Beck, and not the one with "Loser" on it.) The 90s kind of sucked, though not nearly as much as the 80s.
27: Shit, you're right. But it was on heavy rotation on the station that called itself the 70s station. Besides, Jim Steinman==70s.
And, to be clear, I went to HS in NJ. I did not attend a single dance or DJ'd event that did not include "Paradise by the Dashboard Light."
Oh, shit; I obviously have Beck on my ipod as well.
I'm glad we're having a "Where were you when the Challenger exploded?" conversation about Smells Like Teen Spirit, because it's one of those moments that unifies you with humanity and stuff.
37: That's just an example of a Smart Playlist. You are welcome to delete it.
Okay, I'm Yglesias's age and ninety percent of that list is earshit. Is my generation really nostalgic for Third Eye Blind? Jesus Christ, the future is fucked.
I did not attend a single dance or DJ'd event that did not include "Paradise by the Dashboard Light."
We used to joke that you couldn't travel on the highway for a half-hour in Florida without hearing "The Boys Are Back In Town". Not sure why it was such a truism, but you really couldn't avoid it.
93-97 was the perfect era to be in high school. I think if I had been older, that music would have annoyed the shit out of me, but it was timed just right for my goofy/melancholy sensibility at that age.
I only regret that I never figured out what to do with my hair during that time. I had a thick, frizzy blonde mane all the way to my ass, and when it didn't look like Sammy Hagar's hair, I was putting forth way too much effort to straighten it and look 60's mod, which does not go with flannel, dude.
42: Hey, sarcasm aside, I actually don't know what the previous comparable cultural milestone/breakpoint would be. That's partly youth/ignorance, but I actually have read a lot about pop/rock history, and the durability of SLTS makes me reach back to Beatles/Hendrix days of paradigm-shifting. Other major music shifts weren't usually quite that discrete (as big as MTV was, an individual's first encounter with it probably wouldn't be so sharable - there was no single moment or video that defined its initial impact).
per 46, also I'm so glad I came of age in a decade where femme and gender roles were minimized.
Man, that playlist brings me back (to middle school, of course). I actually like most of the songs on it that I've heard, which is most but not all of them.
I also missed 90s music, but the music that I recongize on that list does not make me nostalgic.
I mean it's completely correct that most of the good music from the 70s or 80s was not radio hits but can you really tell me that Bitch (moderate hit of the 90s) is better than, say, Voices Carry (moderate hit of the 80s).
47, um hello? "It's the capital S oh yes N double-O P, D - O -double G y D-O-double G, you see." Sheesh, some people need everything spelled out.
93-97 was the perfect era to be in high school. I think if I had been older, that music would have annoyed the shit out of me, but it was timed just right for my goofy/melancholy sensibility at that age.
See, but that's exactly why it annoyed the shit out of me. I knew my goofy/melancholy sensibility was a product of disordered hormones that time would eventually overcome, and I resented the fact that I was listening to this music, produced by adults who had ostensibly outgrown adolescence, were projecting my own teenage mopeyness back at me.
I knew my goofy/melancholy sensibility was a product of disordered hormones that time would eventually overcome
Or not.
53: You saw beyond your years, then. I had been a much mopier and unhappier kid, and 93ish was the first little ray of goofy joy, so I often figured once high school was over, I'd revert to being a miserable little shit like everyone else.
Actually, AWB, if you were a bit grown up in the early-mid '90s, you were free to ignore the tiresome brooders and wear non-flannel (or continue wearing the flannel you already had). Everyone's always so down on the melancholy of 90s music, but, again, that's not how I experienced it. "Peaches" was a fun, wacky song. Primus' Sailing the Seas of Cheese. Videos at the time were often-amazing (David Byrne & Peter Gabriel getting huge kudos; they were, obviously, not of that generation, but were part of the cultural landscape). There was a lot of energy and innovation, even if some of it was directed at perfecting shoe-gazing.
51: But even on the level of radio play, in the 80s you had the occasional Talking Heads and Devo hit, right? I'll take David Byrne over Cobain any day of the week.
"Peaches" was a fun, wacky unbearable song.
JL, are you from Providence? I have difficulty figuring out how far the love spread for some of the bands that I liked. Obviously everyone* knew who Pavement or the Mountain Goats were, but did indie-rock people from Houston or LA listen to Small Factory and Versus and Slant 6?
* For sufficient values of "everyone".
I almost forgot about K's Choice, although Mr. Freeze is much better than Not an Addict.
My house. My rules. As I get dinner ready, we play one of the following:
Exile on Main Street
Let it Bleed
The Band-
Van Morrison
Beatles
Old Crow Medicine Show
Rolling Thunder Revue -dylan
John Prine
Dead
Little Feat
Not much recent stuff makes it in there. Occassionally, Beck or Talking Heads.
See, little of that list really bothers me (I stopped DJing college radio when I graduated in '92 and moved out of reception range as well). It's mostly just slick, well-crafted pop songs. Except that fricking "One Week" song, which absolutely makes my skin crawl. Jesus Christ, I hate that song.
56: Absolutely, JRoth. We loved POTUS and Primus and the Butthole Surfers and the Flaming Lips and Morphine (who were just too noir to take seriously). But weren't they doing some pomo navel gazing themselves that, while funny, was still pretty self-absorbed and holier-than-thou in its own way?
52's pretty funny, but A. I was working backwards from Fall '91, and B. I'm pretty sure that Snoop's breakthrough wasn't definitive for millions of a cohort.
Rap's an interesting question though - it's slow breakthrough from The Message through Rapture and, eventually, Walk This Way made for a 7-8 year series of moments when big groups of people had That Moment. But it was a growing consciousness. Presumably "The first time I heard/noticed rap was X" is a really good demographic marker.
I proudly listened to Boys II Men and Mariah Carey and Babyface, you all, and I'm not sorry one bit.
57: Occasional cool songs aside, the '80s on the radio were a freaking siege. We were forced to wear tie-dyes and huddle around classic rock stations muttering "It's not really happening. It's not really happening." Somehow I managed to take a lifetime dose of Led Zeppelin.
mostly just slick, well-crafted pop songs
Yeah, I think this is right; not many of those make me think "Oh god, blech." But then, like you, I only heard them a few times, not ad nauseum.
Primus was awesome: local band makes it big! Another local band that made it big, Green Day, always annoyed the hell out of me. I haven't heard their new album that everyone's been raving about, though.
Re: Third Eye Blind, we had a spring concert at my college a few years back, and the geniuses-that-be chose 3EB. (Lesson One: never allow budding politicos select musical acts). Granted this was 2005, but I went anyway. They proceeded to play several songs off their self-proclaimed "underrated third album," waited to play "Semi-Charmed Life" until the encore, then promptly segued into "Stairway to Heaven"... and not just any part of Stairway, but the fucking solo. And that was the day that music died.
Presumably "The first time I heard/noticed rap was X" is a really good demographic marker.
We all had LL Cool J's "Going back to Cali" memorised in 3rd grade.
63: 1988 was my first rap-listening year. The first rap album I owned was Young MC's Stone Cold Rhymin'. The second and third were LL Cool J. Yes, I can still do all of "Mama Said Knock You Out."
59: I saw Slant 6 at Motoroil Industrial Coffee/Speedboat Gallery in 199-probably-3. I have an album of theirs on cassette, in fact. I've also got a Versus 7", but have no real memory of the songs.
We all had LL Cool J's "Going back to Cali" memorised in 3rd grade.
I don't think so.
But weren't they doing some pomo navel gazing themselves that, while funny, was still pretty self-absorbed and holier-than-thou in its own way?
I think you're getting too deep into caring about artist's intent. I'm not going to reject a fun song just because I detect an unacceptable level of earnestness underneath.
That said, I actually dislike the take-themselves-too-seriously critique quite a bit. Who the hell are we to tell someone else that they shouldn't take themselves seriously? IOW: You're a joke. Laugh, you fucking clown.
I don't particularly relish interacting with self-serious people, but I don't reject them and all their works.
69: You were in 3rd grade in 1989? How is that possible?
73: I loved them, but I don't think one can separate them out from, e.g., Nirvana and Pearl Jam on the basis of taking themselves less seriously.
First, Jake tells me "Not bad for an old man." Now I find out that JM is just a child. Practically a teenager still.
I mostly stopped listening to white guys with guitars after Kurt Cobain killed himself. I wish I could follow that up with saying that I got really deep into hip-hop or ambient or something, but mostly I just spent the rest of the decade listening to Exiled in Guyville, The Immaculate Collection, and the first three They Might be Giants albums. And Public Enemy. And "Totally 80's". And so I missed out on the song in the video by the very clean kids at work, but I have to say, I liked it when I heard it just now. (It sounded familiar. I think I saw it at the movies.)
No one has mentioned the Spin Doctors/Blues Traveler phenomenon. Is this not inseparable from 90's? Lord knows I danced to "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong" too many times, my freshman year.
Having said all that, I will propose that as an album, Exiled in Guyville was not topped until OK Computer came out, and that by decade's end, Cannonball by the Breeders never was. Appropriate Nirvana exceptions apply.
Wait, I must've been in 6th grade, now that I've looked up the dates and done some math. But I have an extremely vivid memory of singing that song in a very specific 3rd grade place on my elementary school playground! Holy screen memory, Batman.
I lost friends because I hated Blues Traveler so much. To this day, the sound of harmonica melismas makes me go absolutely batty.
I will say that, while I never really identified with Grunge or any of the other cultural markers of that time, they resonated with me - "Slacker" and the like. There was something of Boomer-rejection that I embraced (and since let go of) that was very refreshing. So while maybe I didn't myself have the morose worldview of Kurt or Eddie, I got what they were reacting against.
But anyway, do you still think that self-seriousness is deadly in an artist? And how can you tell? Like, is Beck secretly not caring about his music, so he's OK? Or would he get mad if, say, a producer changed his work to make it play better on the radio? Because he takes his music seriously, and gets upset if someone fucks with it.
Y'all, I was such a storybook white suburban 4th-grader -- my first rap love affair was with the Rick Rubin brainchild Run DMC/Aerosmith "Walk This Way".
I also had an antiestablishment friend who used to talk about making bombs and nerve gas from recipies in The Anarchist's Cookbook (seriously), but the moment in my middle school years that felt the most transgressive was when he popped in Straight Outta Compton and our white pasty asses were nervously lipping along with "Fuck Tha Police".
That album cover was so fucking cool -- like you'd just been triggered and N.W.A. was looking down at your bleeding body as you begged for mercy.
On the rap question, I got lucky. An older friend gave me a mix-tape with Ice-T's "Drama" and BDP's "Stop the Violence", I think It also had Jonathan Richman, the Cramps, and some other good stuff. I only just threw it away. That was probably 9th grade.
82: I never said I hated self-seriousness, just that you can't say that some bands are somehow not self-serious just because they're funny. I'm actually fine with self-seriousness, and may even, gulp, prefer it.
Boy, you people were much less snobby, musically, than the crowd I used to run with. Let's see:
Almost everything off Simple Machines
Those Rhino punk and post-punk cassettes
Jesus Lizard
Huggybear
Bikini Kill and all the riot grrrl bands
I spend a lot of time (after England's Dreaming came out) tracking down old punk records...back before there were a lot of reissues available and before the prices went up...which is how I have such a fantastic record collection if by "collection" you mean arty records released between 1977 and 1982.
For myself, I listened to a lot of X and old Mekons albums, and the Clash Sandinista. Slanted and Enchanted put me right to sleep on the Greyhound, every time.
Oh, fuck, I totally lied! My first rap album was Ice-T's "Power."
My first rap album was Ice-T's "Power."
I had this too.
It seems odd to me that Ogged's pool hall would be playing Public Enemy in the mid-90's. Shouldn't they have been playing West Coast gangsta rap, not tracks from a group whose last major album came out in 1990?
85: Self-seriousness was kind of inherent with a lot of the 94 group. My first two CDs were Rage Against the Machine's "Evil Empire" and Nirvana Unplugged, which are quite possibly the two most self-serious albums of the decade. Alt-rock died when Third Eye Blind tried to be funny, serious, and talented, and wound up imploding an entire genre.
On the rap question, I too got lucky. My older brother gave me a copy of Dana Dane's hit 1987 album "Dana Dane With Fame." You know, the British rapper with such hits as "Cinderfella Dana Dane" and "Nightmares."
That said, I actually dislike the take-themselves-too-seriously critique quite a bit. Who the hell are we to tell someone else that they shouldn't take themselves seriously? IOW: You're a joke. Laugh, you fucking clown.
For me, the objectionable part isn't taking yourself too seriously, but sucking the fun out of rock. Great bands from all eras have often managed to mix bleakness with a sense of play; for much of the early-to-mid-nineties, though, you had this massive wave of grim-faced alt-zombies putting out tiny variations on the same deathly ponderous sound. If nothing else, it was maddeningly monotonous.
Nobody else was introduced to rap by Will Smith?
What can I tell you, w/d? Whoever was working the register brought in his own music, and the California Korean kid with the Glock loved his Public Enemy. I'll ask a friend what else they played.
64 is insupportable.
If you're going to go beyond alt-rock though, what about Brits? Massive Attack, Portishead, Lamb et al are all pretty 90s type of bands.
Also, I'd forgotten about Blues Traveler and now I remember. My life is now a little bit crappier.
94: I'll sheepishly raise my hand to that one.
94: Even sadder, I was introduced to rap by Kris Kross. The only thing I got out of it was a tendency to sartorial non-conformity.
91: I, for one, had great fun with RAtM. Little feels better when you're 14 than moshing and screaming "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me!" at the top of your lungs.
Nirvana Unplugged
That was my first album.
I picked up my car phone to perpretate like I was talking.
Rare indeed is the track which interests me and doesn't involve heavily mediated electronic bits produced by no mere human hands. OK, not rare, but easily over half the music in my collection would qualify as electronic. It's all that time spent in gay bars. I can't help it. If something isn't electronic then it must involve a really powerful/beautiful voice or really compelling and comprehensible lyrics: Rufus Wainwright, Pink Martini, Carmen McRae, Nouvelle Vague, Julee Cruise, They Might Be Giants, Talking Heads, etc.
Exceptions are made for some heavy metal and some gloomy goth music and just a touch of indie rock (for whatever reason I really adore American Analog Set) but generally those are the two axes of my music collection: thumpy speedy bits of techno {u,dys}topia and sentimental vocalists. Standard rock has to be pretty driven to interest me: The Faint, Modest Mouse and Kasabian are the only ones I can immediately call to mind and I don't really know where they are on the spectrum between rock and pop because what I don't know about popular music is almost everything.
re: rap, my first album was Too Short's Shorty the Pimp.
Oooh! I also like Skee Lo! Who here wishes they were a little bit taller?
Great galloping Christ, people, elementary school was peace signs, not rap.
105 was not in response to 104, but it sort of sounds like it was.
95: I was surprised, no need to investigate further on my account.
I had the 12" of "Rapper's Delight" in 1980 when I was in the sixth grade, crackers.
Huh, I still don't own any rap albums.
What is this "introduced to rap"? When I was growing up, hip-hop was fucking everywhere, especially in the heavily (and increasingly) Hispanic public schools I attended. I guess this just shows how much younger I am than most of the rest of you.
ahhh middle school:
Another Brick in the Wall and Rapper's Delight.
What an interesting mix.
Yes, young teo. "Going Back To Cali" could have been on at your bris.
no need to investigate further on my account
Too late, email sent. One more infinitesimal drain on the economy.
I wish I was a baller.
Wish I had a girl
If I did, I would call her.
106: Tell me about it. Where did all these kids come from?
I'll admit to having 'Power,' but after a while it only got played for the humor value of L.G.B.N.A.F..
83: Joe, did you know Larry, too?
Or were there a lot of those guys running around NJ in the 80s?
The first compact disc I bought was Radiohead's The Bends. I thought tapes would live forever!
119: IME, tapes lasted about 6 months. They some bastards player would eat them.
Everything changed when I got a copy of Slint's "Spiderland". Maybe if I'd heard it before 1997, I would have avoided some unfortunate years fronting a ska band.
93: I dunno, I still just don't get it. Not that I've never heard music that had had its fun excised, but that's not my response to a lot of the music that is described thus. "Lake of Fire" from Nirvana Unplugged lifts my spirits, and I don't think that Kurt was feeling dismal when he sang it, yet the consensus appears to be "too self-serious."
I guess that, to me, the only music that is too self-serious is bad, sincere music, like a lot of the Mispell-Core of the late 90s - Fred Durst wasn't playing with the form or having fun; he thought he was a Serious Artist, and he sucked (and sucks). Same deal with Creed.
And as for monotonous, I experienced the too-much-grunge as being maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of what was being put out under the alt-rock banner - easy to focus elsewhere.
109: My mom's ultrasound was performed with sped-up dancehall toasting, so there.
59: I'm from RI, and have lived in or around Providence from about 1989 to the present, with time off in Chicago and Boston. I used to hang in the same crowd as small factory back at that time, so I (and everyone else here) was listening to them, but it's my understanding that they actually got rather popular among certain audiences nationally and beyond.
The last sentence of 96 speaks for me as well.
Slint's "Spiderland" is the kind of album that makes me fear for the 90's revival. I got it based on a good pitchfork review but find it unlistenable. And, I had high frigging hopes because the squirrel bait song on the wailing ultimate is the bee's knees.
My first several records were KISS albums. The first CDs I bought (when I was in college) were Piper at the gates of Dawn and Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me.
Interesting.
I think my musical taste exists in the exact center of the triangle described by w-lfs-n, Apo, and McManlyPants. I feel like Jackmormon is nearby, and JRoth is as far on the other side of the world of musical taste as it is possible for someone to be.
On the other hand, it's kind of fun to see people trot out the good ol' ignorant arguments against electronic music again.
Will nobody raise the "rap isn't music" flag?
Also, I like about half the non-electronic stuff McManly names, so I can't help but think that you've mislocated my tastes somewhat.
Perhaps hours of drinking and then a rambling blog post would help?
(On a less snarky note, I'm pretty sure we don't like much of the same stuff, but you may - just may - have underestimated the actual breadth of musical taste in the world).
Creed is AWESOME!
"you may - just may - have underestimated the actual breadth of musical taste in the world"
Us DJ types are prone to hyperbole.
But seriously, anything that is (a) made by white people (b) with guitars who (c) take themselves seriously, pretty much bugs the shit out of me. I liked Nirvana when I was in high school, of course, but electronic music really saved me from a decade of boring, tiresome music that covered the same ground as every other rock band from the past thirty years. See also indie rock. If you ask me, which nobody ever has, the only genuinely original things to happen in pop music over the past thirty or so years are disco, electronica, and hip-hop.
But yeah, you know, I long ago accepted that most people who's online company I otherwise enjoy have gratingly pedestrian taste in music. I like you anyhow!
Has anybody noticed that music threads are completely guaranteed to devolve into childishness? Trool-proof this, unfogged!
131: I'd rank (a), (b), and (c) as (c), (a), (b) in order of offensiveness. My own comments above focused on indie rock as that seemed to be the topic under discussion, but it's far from the only thing I listened to. Guitars are often very boring. Though to touch on what some others have mentioned, there was a significant subgenre of 90s alt rock that was far less serious than most other indie stuff of the time. I've always thought Jonathan Richman played a role in fostering that sort of sensibility, though the music rarely shared his way with a beat.
That said, originality is way overrated in popular music. Most of it is just genre stuff, the clever manipulating of conventions, and that's just fine.
Again, I'm baffled by the "taking themselves seriously," as broadly construed.
I really want to know: Does Beck take himself seriously? How can you tell?
Does Melora Creager of Rasputina take herself seriously? The music is often silly, and her stage persona is playful, but it's clear from the endless string of second and third chairs that she takes the project as a whole pretty seriously. Some of the songs are maudlin, even earnest, but I gather that artists who don't take themselves too seriously are permitted this. In bounds or out?
Is it a matter of too serious? Is a little seriosity OK, but too much is poison? Or is Dean Martin the ideal?
Ok, so I went down to the basement to look through my unlistened-to cassette tapes. I can say with a fair degree of confidence that all the new music I bought between the end of college and the new century is the following 5 tapes: Michael Jackson, Dangerous. Arrested Development, 5 Years, 3 Months, and 2 Days in the Life of. Cracker, Kerosene Hat (this is the one I misremembered as being by a band called Radio Head). Crash Test Dummies, God Shuffled His Feet. Soul Asylum, Let Your Dim Light Shine. Also there are various tapes dubbed for me by friends.
About 20% of the stuff on Yglesias list I've never heard. I turned 18 in 1990, so I suppose the 90s ought to have been my musical decade, but to be honest, I think a lot of the stuff I really find compelling is more recent than that. The 00s have been a pretty bloody good decade for music.
re: 131
Also, the 'electronic music is the future' line is pretty tired. There's great electronic music being made, and tons of bland or formulaic shite, just as there's great guitar music being made and tons of bland or formulaic shite.
I go through phases when I listen to lots of electronic stuff, and then phases where I don't.
Don't a lot of people go through transient 'crushes' on certain types of music? I have fairly eclectic tastes and listen to all kinds of stuff but at any one time there's usually a couple of fairly narrow genres or types of music that are dominant in my listening habits.
The first cassette tape I bought was the Rain Man soundtrack, and I believe the second was Fugazi's Repeater. What a combo.
About 20% of the stuff on Yglesias list I've never heard.
I would suggest that this is because some of it didn't make it cross the pond, but it's actually true of me too (maybe it was just before my time).
Yeah, I think it's partly because some of it didn't make it across the pond. Also, I'd imagine everyone has some gaps -- bands that just fell under their radar for some reason or other, even though they were fairly mainstream.
133: okay, I'll rephrase it as "expect other people to take them seriously."
Is that helpful?
Really, I mostly just like fun, funky dance music. I have very little use for meaningful lyrics (I don't hear that well, so it's tough for me to get them unless it's a very good stereo) or the explicit reference to emotional states or personal struggles.
I am sympathetic to metal, Morrisey, and anybody else who can be ridiculous without being a novelty act, but my primary thing will always be music with fat, fat funky bass.
135: aye, it is extremely tired. I would go so far as to say the traditional definition of "rock" and "electronic music" as two different things is kind of tired.
Beefo Meaty, are you familiar with Matthew Herbert's stuff?
Or is Dean Martin the ideal?
Shatner is the ideal. Dean Martin was merely his prophet.
140: yeah, I like it pretty well. Somewhat more intellectual than I usually go for, but some of his remixes (of e.g Moloko) are pretty terrific.
The deaf guy is lecturing us about music? Seems right.
The deaf guy also makes music and DJs, figure that one out.
re: 142
Some of his stuff, for me, just hits the right blend of totally funky and the intellectual. His food themed album from last year was too far in the intellectual direction but the big band remix album and his more recent stuff is great. His albums with Roisin Murphy (from Moloko) and Dani Siciliano are pretty good too.
Don't a lot of people go through transient 'crushes' on certain types of music?
That's how I do it. True indeed of all my aesthetic intake -- I get into fads that usually last between a few months and a few years, of seeking out all I can find of a particular form.
Hell, I listen to the same album over and over and over again for weeks on end.
The deaf guy also makes music and DJs, figure that one out.
Musicians who can't hear so good? Never happened before!
145: yeah, see, I really like the big, dumb dance music. Someplace between the Jaxx and big, glitchy electro-house is pretty much the sweet spot for me right now. Really, though, anything funky. LCD Soundsystem? Sure. The Meters? You bet. Ratatat? Hokay. MF Doom? Boss.
Don't a lot of people go through transient 'crushes' on certain types of music?
This, yes.
One winds up with shitloads of stuff from 5 or 10 or 15 years ago, and wonders. Why do I have this Moody Blues? huh. What's with the Prince? Why this Miles Davis? I can't even listen to Bitches' Brew (only fight I ever had with people over music: I played that album and they insisted I turn it off, like NOW).
When they put you in Gitmo, Tweety, it's going to be nothing but Elliot Smith.
The deaf guy also makes music and DJs, figure that one out.
Isn't this where Ideal says something along the lines of, "That explains today's music"?
re: 149
Yeah, Basement Jaxx have produced some of the classic singles of the past couple of years.
re: 150
Heh, Bitches Brew and other similar late 60s fusion stuff (before it turned into fuzak and elevator music) has been a pretty constant source of joy for me since I first discovered it when I was about 17.
At the moment my crushes are quite varied -- 30s and 40s small-group swing and the modern gypsy stuff derived from that has been a pretty big and long-running one.
151: as long as it's not Conor Oberst.
Someday The Decembrists will do an ode to my time in Gitmo, featuring authentic Irish fiddle and eight instances of the word "numinous," called "Beefo Meaty hates this fucking song."
152: don't make me bust some deaf musician links all up in this, Tim. Beethoven was a hack, sure, but the rest of 'em? Solid gold.
Actually, the first time I met a girl who I ended up living with for 3 years, she came back to my flat and it was Side 3 of Bitches Brew that was on the stereo. I'm surprised she didn't walk out.
I can't even listen to Bitches' Brew
You should see a doctor about that.
Sifu, if you're not already checking it out, you might enjoy Home of the Groove. redfoxtailshrub, when I acquired this song, I listened to it 150 times in a row without listening to anything else. iTunes don't lie.
Isn't this where Ideal says something along the lines of, "That explains today's music"?
Get off my lawn, SCMT!
I am perpetually 5 to 10 years behind, but I try to appreciate new music too. It is hard to keep up, though. The other day I bought a CD that I really liked (One Fair Summer Evening by Nanci Griffith). I thought, "Cool, new music" Not so much, it was recorded in 1988. But I try.
156: that is actually fairly awesome. Was she on mushrooms?
re: 160
Heh, no, but the room was lit by a light with a crappy red light shade which might have made it a bit like that scene in Manhunter where the Iron Butterfly song is playing.
I've only heard Bitches' Brew once. It was played at a party one time, and I danced and danced and danced. I've always meant to buy or copy that album.
162: You should, along with A Tribute to Jack Johnson.
So does Miles, man. So does Miles.
There could be mushrooms on Miles, possibly.
Well somebody just blew some minds.
Hey Sifu, I listened to your mix tape tonight for the first time. I enjoyed it.
Speaking of blown minds, there are a remarkable number of videos on youtube of people tripping on mushrooms. Ottoman humping, sure, but that's really something you want to share with the world?
Why the Moody Blues. It must have been the early 80s when I made a tape or two. I was exploring. I worked at a library which had an extensive album collection, and I just brought things home and taped them like crazy. I was really into Yes and King Crimson, and miscellany like Uriah Heep. Short step.
If y'all think I should listen to Bitches Brew again, I will. I have bad memories, but perhaps I'm past them.
169: thanks! I'll try and post some more stuff one of these times here.
re: 164
Yeah, a friend of mine claims that McLaughlin was the greatest guitar player in the world but only for the duration of those 3 albums with Davis, and, in particular, on A Tribute to Jack Johnson.
He's not entirely wrong.
I love theJack Johnson album but Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way probably still get a more regular listen.
do you still think that self-seriousness is deadly in an artist?
Almost always, especially when it comes to the performing arts where the line between "art" and "entertainment" is--and should be--very fuzzy.
Maybe I'll elaborate on the this later but right now I need to go drink beer and watch the Heroes finale.
Unfogged meetup: Teo, Ogged, and Apo.
163: No. I think I was stone-cold sober.
174: Populuxe, one day you and I will have this out. I expect to smile and poke you in the snoot while it happens.
On the Corner and Agartha are my favorites. And Larry Brown's "Khalid of Space" on "Lawrence of Newark" tops any single thing of Miles' electric period.
Back to life, back to reality:
I am also surprised that anyone outside of the most repressed Footloose-like rural areas needed an introduction to hip-hop. What was playing on your school buses? We listened to lots of hip-hop and R&B in the early 1980s, and Licensed to Ill was the anthem of a generation (not to mention Raising Hell). I guess I always figured that part of the whole alternative, as represented by 1990s rock, was that it was rock made by people who had grown up listening to hip-hop. Around here, by the time the early 1990s rolled around, you could hear plenty of PE and Beasties on the altenative stations, and the people I knew were listening to lots of BDP, Goats, Coup, Disposable Heroes, various Native Tongues, plus whatever was big on the hip-hop charts regardless of its politics.
I guess I never felt the grunge/alt-rock stuff was so compelling, nor did I resent it, because it was never my culture that was being packaged and sold back to me in a pre-digested form. Also, I think making lists like these fails to take into account the degree to which listeners, even fairly young, untutored ones, will reach backward for the sounds that resonate with them. When I went to college in 1993, many of the college rock precursors to alternative had apparently never left people's stereos despite being to old to be new and not old enough to be re-discovered.
re: 178
There's a lot of interesting British stuff in a similar vein from that period too. Ian Carr's band Nucleus, some of John Surman's stuff, Graham Collier, etc.
180: I'm two from Kevin Bacon, BTW. I knew Footloose's Lori Singer's brother in college. I have to keep reminding people how important I am.
I could have met her, but she was only two and I didn't know she'd become famous.
I may have told people that I actually did meet her, but if I did say that, I had a good reason to do so.
My aunt went to elementary school with Kevin Bacon.
A friend of mine in middle school had an uncle who was in a movie with a guy who was in a movie with Kevin Bacon. Supposedly.
It turns out that Singer is a Julliard-trained cellist. Not surprising, since her father was an orchestra conductor. She looks better now than she did in the movie, to say nothing of when she was two.
You know, it doesn't count as a connection unless you are in a movie with him, much like having coffee with Paul Erdöaut;s doesn't affect your Erdöaut;s number.
Chorus: Yes, redfoxtailshrub, we know, stop spoiling our fun.
Clearly. Instant variety, no less. *umlauts away*
I have eaten bacon with several men named Kevin.
parsimon:
You dont like Bitches Brew?!?!?!?! You are kidding. Fabulous, spectacular, excellent.
Ok, maybe, not for everybody. But outstanding.
182: I know several people who have Bacon Numbers of 2 or 3. But since I've never appeared in a feature film, I am still at infinity.
I play the game at a higher level, foxtail.
A friend of mine swore long ago that Bitches Brew 'makes women hot.' He has had more success at hooking up than anyone I've ever known, but that may be completely unrelated to Miles Davis.
I once overheard the tail end of a conversation between two guys about some seduction, and the (self-reporting) seducer mentioned the song that helped seal the deal. His friend asked, "They like that?" He replied, "Oh yeah. It's a panty-dropper." Tragically, I didn't catch the name of the song.
Ask B. if it's funny before you laugh, please.
199:
What does she know about panty dropping?
She's very versatile and networks broadly.
Since they are said to come in pairs, what is the sound of one panty dropping?
197: Jesus, that is tragic. You could do an entire off-beat indie movie on that tragedy. Or at least a compelling Youtube movie.
139: That does kind of help, but I still think that "take themselves seriously" is an awful lot like "authentic" (opposite connotations, obvs.) - you apply it as you wish. No sane adult would deny that Creed is, was, and always shall be too self-serious. But debates over when, if ever, Dylan was too self-serious probably make the 30 Years War look like a fucking tea party.
Since musicians I like who obviously have fun making music also produce music that doesn't make sense unless it's taken seriously, I find the whole notion to be worse than useless. Which comes back to the bullshit category of "authentic." But, you know, if it saves you time to ignore any musician with an idea beyond "booty call," go for it.
But debates over when, if ever, Dylan was too self-serious probably make the 30 Years War look like a fucking tea party.
An excellent line. I'm trying to come up with a longish post to clarify my own reaction to the authenticity stuff that's been discussed recently here and over at LGM and Pandagon. Maybe I will reference this thread as well.
195 - I recently discovered that Natalie Portman has a finite Erdös number (in the broad sense; it's a peer-reviewed publication in the sciences, but not actually math-related). She therefore joins Danica McKellar on a very small and sexxxy list.
205: And just to be clear, that last bit wasn't just snark directed at Sifu. The self-serious line dates back to Lester Bangs and, presumably, before. What's funny to me is that most of the people who hate musicians who take their own music seriously do, in fact, take music seriously. I guess it has to be on their own terms, or something.
But music is music. My mom was pre-Boomer, and loved the earliest rock n roll & R&B. She didn't like the Beatles after Hard Days' Night. I doubt she ever used the words, but I'm sure she though they took themselves too seriously. There's nothing wrong with wanting fun music to be fun. I just think that phrase is a fancy way of saying "this music doesn't do it for me" in a way that pushes the blame onto the artist.
If you ask me, which nobody ever has, the only genuinely original things to happen in pop music over the past thirty or so years are disco, electronica, and hip-hop.
Listen, grasshoppers. There's a reason why Tweety is a "Sifu."
if it saves you time to ignore any musician with an idea beyond "booty call," go for it.
It saves me a lot of time. And you know, if I want ideas, I'll read a fucking book.
The "Total Eclipse of the Heart" cover ogged linked to in 32 is the second greatest fucking thing ever, after the bluegrass cover of "Gin and Juice".
However, in my never-ceasing quest to be unserious, let me note that I dislike the name "electronica." Let's call it "dance music" and be done with it.
Great Balls of Fire - that's dance music. I won't give Sifu the satisfaction of saying that electronica is just noise, but, well....
You know what I hate? Writers who want to be taken seriously. Fuck that shit. Twain was pretty funny with Tom Sawyer, but that Huck Finn? Who's he trying to kid? Be more funny, joke man.
211 is f'real.
205: listen, I like tons of music, because there's tons of music with a funky, danceable beat, and there's even more music capable of being laudably ridiculous in one way or another. Does the Clash have a funky, danceable beat? Does Wendy Carlos have a certain weird majesty? Does Seldom Scene occasionally bust a move? I'll say. But I have no interest in listening to white dudes whining about their problems. It provides me no escapist thrill. That's all I meant.
"That's all I meant."
In retrospect, I was pretty damn imprecise about it.
But I have no interest in listening to white dudes whining about their problems.
Then what are you doing at unfogged?
RFTS is evidently not familiar with my proposal regarding Erdős and Bacon.
At the moment, I am suffering from a surfeit of "funky".
It appears that even in your proposal, Ben, only coauthorship and costarring are relevant relationships. Marriage, cousindom, co-coffeeing, etc. still appear to be out of bounds.
#177. Some day, yeah. We'll put it together and we'll get it all done.
216: Well thank god for that, otherwise this whole enterprise would be revealed as a shallow and bitchy method of avoiding actual work. The blog version of coldplay, perhaps.
The blog version of coldplay, perhaps.
Heavens, no! More like the blog version of the 1910 Fruitgum Company.
219: true. But under my proposal a Baconian connection doesn't have to be by costardom.
The deaf guy also makes music and DJs, figure that one out.
And suddenly your opinion of Parts & Labor makes sense!
We'd probably get along incredibly well from a music-taste standpoint, if only it wasn't for that irrational hatred-of-rock you seem to have. I should grab your next mix, since I forgot to download the last one.
I once heard the most awesomely specific and yet obviously illegitimate extension of the concept of Bacon number: a link consisted either of appearing in a movie with someone, or doing a pagan ritual with someone. The person who told me this had a Bacon number of 7 under this calculation. If we could count "donated money to Scientology" as a link, we could all be 2 links from all of Hollywood.
225: it wasn't just me at the P&L show; other people I talked to there who'd seen them many times were confused and disappointed with their direction. It sounded like they'd picked up some lessons from Green Day or something. Very odd.
re: the disco/rap/electronica argument: Joy Division
226 -- Could "donated money to Scientology" fall under the category of "performed a pagan ritual"?
227: Huh, that is really weird. I assume you saw them on their most recent tour, opening for Adult. Their show in Chicago sounded almost just like the records, massive noisy squalls over drumming so frenetic the guy's drum kit basically exploded mid-song at one point. Guess they're not very consistent live.
228: Also: Can, most good funk.
Hey, guys, what about Pulp? "Common People" is a legendary 90s track.
83: Joe, did you know Larry, too? Or were there a lot of those guys running around NJ in the 80s?
I wouldn't know -- I grew up in San Antonio. Just curious - what made you think I was from Jersey?
Shatner doing Common People is delightful. Joe Jackson sings along.
My friend remembers the playlist at the pool hall in college.
Pearl Jam, a fair amount of various jazz, Dexter Gordon, Coltrane, and Miles Davis stands out in my mind, Smashing Pumpkins, Springsteen. There was also that one group that was like light rap combined with hippieish lyrics and poppy melodies that [Korean guy] used to always play (I think it was two guys primarily and one of the singers was sort of a heavyset black guy. Mazzie Star too.
I am currently listening to Zappa's Freak Out and it is so unbelievably good.
It is a definitive example of an album that I don't listen to very often, but when I am in the mood for it and pull it out and listen to it I am convinced it's one of the greatest albums ever.
If anyone's still here, what does "Concrete Blonde" mean to you?
Hey hey, goodbye, tomorrow Wendy's going to die.
It is a definitive example of an album that I don't listen to very often, but when I am in the mood for it and pull it out and listen to it I am convinced it's one of the greatest albums ever.
Entertainment! by the Gang of Four is in this category for me.
Atliens by OutKast and Ritual de lo Habitual by Jane's Addiction are totally in this category for me. Those are probably my longest running staples.
Freak Out, yes. Also, Captain Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica and The Minutemen's Double Nickels on the Dime.
OH GOD HOW COULD I HAVE MISSED THIS THREAD
I meant to ask this 100 comments ago, but I'm still curious (and it's a genuine question, Sifu): what original did disco bring to the table, musically?
re: 237
Me too! It's in my top $number ever. It's damn near perfect.
My greatest albums ever list usually contains the afore-mentioned Bitches Brew and Dusty in Memphis among other things. Lambchop's Nixon was on it for ages, but I've not listed to it for a while (sickened myself on it).
re: 238
I used to LOVE Jane's Addiction. Partly for pathetic 'Losing my edge' reasons -- I saw them first iwhen I was 16 in a tiny club in Edinburgh, a venue small enough that Dave Navarro let my then girlfriend sit on stage on his amp during the gig. I went off them, unfortunately.
242: Well, if my girl sat on some band member's "amp", I wouldn't be too pleased with them (or her) either.
My "best albums" list is probably overly heavy on Dylan and Robyn Hitchcock, to the exclusion of a lot of other worthwhile stuff. Let's see, offhand, and in no particular order:
It is a definitive example of an album that I don't listen to very often, but when I am in the mood for it and pull it out and listen to it I am convinced it's one of the greatest albums ever.
The self-titled Elastica album does that for me.
re: 243
Yeah, I am sure it wasn't an entirely altruistic act on his part. He did try to chat her up immediately after. Of course he, tattoo'd rockstar, had nothing to compete with me (skinny Scottish 16 year old who had only just started shaving).
if my girl sat on some band member's "amp"
It looks just like a Telefunken U-47. You'll love it.