I was just thinking about this earlier today. He is ugly. Or maybe a better way to put it is that he's attractive in the same way that Rothlesberger (sp) is: he's thick, he has a great body, and the requisite number of eyes, ears and noses.
Not a real problem though: MJ was special because he was attractive, but the league existed and even (sort of) thrived before that. Also, there is no aphrodesiac like success, which LeBron will have.
(I'm wavering back and forth on LeBron v. Kobe. The decider for me, at the moment, +is that I'm pretty sure I want LeBron in the last four minutes.)
Larry Bird? Not attractive.
Didn't seem to cause problems.
Different media era. The NBA wants marketable stars now, and LeBron is the natural heir, but he's ugly. Kobe could have had it, but he doesn't seem likable and might be a rapist, so....
What you're saying, then, is that Kevin Durant is getting the best blowjob Stern has ever given?
Seriously though, everybody loves LeBron. I don't get what the problem is. I would put pretty good money on Game 1 Thursday getting better ratings than any finals game in a long time.
I'm wavering back and forth on LeBron v. Kobe.
I'm pretty much with Ogged and Al from the Saiselgy thread. Kobe's a better defender, and is a scoring machine.
From the article:
James, in contrast, is a brawny 6-foot-8 player who can sometimes score like Jordan or Kobe Bryant but who can also pass like the former N.B.A. star Magic Johnson
Beck you retard, go watch some old clips of Magic Johnson before you type.
Sadly, James used to be a better passer than he is now. He was genuinely fun to watch that first year in the league.
OK, as a non-sports-fan, I had no idea what LeBron looks like. So I did a GIS, expecting to see some hideous deformed soul. People, the guy looks fine. Maybe not movie-star looks, but you don't look at him and go, "Wow, that guy is UGLY!"
Another pro-:LeBron point: he gives you what you need. I can bring myself to expect 10-11 rebounds per game from LeBron if--because of player injury or whatever--needed. Not so with Kobe, who might have a could of such games in him, but not a season's worth.
Crap, I agree with GB. But I'll go further just for the sake of maintaining our animosity and say that in the few pics I looked at (which maybe were chosen because they were unusually flattering), LeBron was actually kinda cute.
Or do you mean that he doesn't move beautifully on the court?
11: Oh, there's only one?
He's no longer the enfant terrible, you know.
The chewing his nails thing I'll grant you. People shouldn't do that.
I can bring myself to expect 10-11 rebounds per game from LeBron
Guys who can step up and pull a few extra rebounds a game a bit easier to come by then Kobe's scoring and defensive abilities.
17: Yes, I found it (and though I do remember all the url changes, it's amusing to see so many different ones show up when you google him). I actually thought there were multiple Lebron threads, anyway; I haven't been reading there for a while.
Here's the heart of the Kobe vs. LeBron matter: by whom would you rather be cuckolded so that you could better claim their genetic prowess was yours? There attractiveness becomes much more important, but I think I still say LeBron.
Admittedly, Lebron still very young, so who knows. But also, he's already 255 pounds, and still very young. Let's see if he can avoid injury.
I'm barely on the pro-Kobe side; like I said over there, only in a right-now comparison. And I was surprised to find that LeBron had more steals and more blocks this past season.
Now I'm going to bed, you racists.
You're talking about a league whose superstars include Nash, Nowitzki, and Yao Ming, right? Lebron looks positively handsome by comparison.
I was just thinking about this earlier today.
You guys are some kind of bees, aren't you?
I don't know what that means, but it's funny.
I've heard Lebron is rather sensitive about the size of his ears.
A lot of people resent Lebron and refuse to give him his due for no good reason except the amount of hype that accompanied him into the league. There's not a team in the NBA that wouldn't choose to have Lebron over Kobe.
I actually thought this NBA post was very well done, ogged.
I'm barely on the pro-Kobe side
Ogged: objectively pro-rapist.
If Ben and B both comment, that means it's technically not a sports thread anymore, right?
No, it just means ogged gets pissy.
And nothing's funner than irritating Ogged.
A lot of people resent Lebron and refuse to give him his due for no good reason except the amount of hype that accompanied him into the league. There's not a team in the NBA that wouldn't choose to have Lebron over Kobe.
Bah. People like to see a guyactually prove themselves in the pros for a few years before they declare him the second coming lest they end up looking like one of those hosers who touted Danny Manning or Larry Johnson.
Lebron is looking like he might end up a better all around player than Kobe. Might. Kobe's put up better numbers for a longer time, has been to the finals 4 times, and has three rings.
So if LeBron gets to play with someone as good as Shaq, you'll think he's as good as Kobe?
The chewing his nails thing I'll grant you. People shouldn't do that.
The only way I stopped was by buying a dozen sets of nail clippers (good ones, not cheap ineffective ones) and nail files and leaving them everywhere I'd ever get the urge to bite my nails.
So if LeBron gets to play with someone as good as Shaq, you'll think he's as good as Kobe?
Did you get all depressed after Bush got re-elected and stop watching or something? Shaq left the Lakers three seasons ago.
And not coincidentally, the Lakers stopped going anywhere in the playoffs three seasons ago. Kobe never singlehandedly carried a team as far as Lebron has this year.
Lebron *is* the second coming. Well before his arrival in the NBA -- in fact, from the moment of his birth to a poor single mother in the dismal ghetto of Akron, Ohio -- he was the Chosen One. Just relax and accept it. You'll feel better.
Kobe never singlehandedly carried a team as far as Lebron has this year.
Neighbor please. If Lebron carries them to a ring then you'll have a point. For now all this demonstrates is that the eastern conference is so pathetic that a single man can carry a team.
Kobe be OK but LeBron is nobler.
Yeah, I had to go and look too, and I'm with GB and B. He's not ugly. Not gorgeous (to me) but I can't see anything wrong with him.
OT - I saw a show on Sunday (a Horrible Histories thing with the kids) and there was a guy in it playing a pharaoh, mostly naked, with a completely smooth chest. Then I looked in the programme and turns out he's Iranian. By the second half his chest stubble was visible.
For ugly (which he isn't) to be an explanation, he'd have to be noticeably uglier than other superstars who were golden marketing boys. I don't know anything about basketball, but if the NYT article is even close, then the reason it's hard to market LeBron is that it's hard to market someone who is a teammate more than he is a superstar.
As the great Omar Khayyam has written,
O, with such wet tears in my eyes
Do I prepare my bowl for commenter stew
The bees dance gaily about the flowers
But a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
the reason it's hard to market LeBron is that it's hard to market someone who is a teammate more than he is a superstar.
In what sense of the word is Lebron not a superstar (or at least well on his way to getting there)?
But how marketable will he be when Cleveland gets swept by the Spurs? Also, even though Kobe is almost certainly a sociopath, he's a much, much, much better scorer at this stage.
LeBron isn't ugly, but he's got some ugly-ass shoes he'd like you to buy.
In the sense where I meant to type "self-glorifying" instead of "superstar." Any more and I'm going into football analogies, but you're easier to market if you're known for doing things that drawn attention to yourself. Better stats & photographs to get excited about.
Of course Kobe's a better scorer at this stage. He's a hellava lot more experienced. The whole point with Lebron is that scoring's not his main game, and that "better scorer" doesn't necessarily mean "better player". How many assists and rebounds does Kobe rack up?
The article is basically bunk: Lebron is a high-flying dunk machine. He also passes well, etc., but you don't need more than one or two dunks a game to be a "highlight reel" guy. There's absolutely nothing in LeBron's game keeping him from being marketable. He's just ugly.
Ogged, what the hell are you talking about with all this "keeping him from being marketable" crap? James sells everything. He's a marketing machine. He's selling fruity-pebbles sneakers, ffs.
He has a lot of endorsements, but people don't love him.
Except for the ones that do.
Maybe it's just that there's a superstar glut. How many guys can be the face of the NBA at once?
54: People in Cleveland love him, and he hasn't yet won anything. And his jersey was the third best-selling in the league, and that was in January -- win or lose the finals, he's sure to rise past Wade and I bet even Kobe in the next update of the numbers. Let him win a few rings, and everyone in the world will love him. He's only 22. This is the worst argument you've ever made.
Of course people in Cleveland love him. They're the one who invented the Cleveland Steamer, after all. And now we know that you're a big gay gay.
That Jersey list is fascinating. Tim Duncan really is a boring dude.
Of course Kobe's a better scorer at this stage. He's a hellava lot more experienced.
4 straight 50+ games and an 81 point game this season. And not against a bunch of guys 6-12'' shorter like Wilt did. At this stage he's the best scorer of all time.
That Jersey list is fascinating
I'm surprised to see Marbury break the Top 10.
59: Agreed. But what's the point?
But what's the point?
Arguments of the "he's more experienced" type make it sound like Lebron will be doing the same with a few more seasons under his belt. Not likely.
I'm surprised to see Marbury break the Top 10.
Only because the list counts only online and NY store sales.
Arguments of the "he's more experienced" type make it sound like Lebron will be doing the same with a few more seasons under his belt. Not likely.
Why not? Aren't his stats actually better than Kobe's were at 22?
LeBron is a good-looking young man who plays in a small-market city with teammates who are mediocre. Put Kobe on the Cavs in place of James and ogged would think Kobe wasn't such a cutie, either.
All those Marbury shirts are bought ironically by Boston fans. We also buy 90% of all Steve Francis Jerseys and have them delivered to Spike Lee.
I just saw some pictures of James, and he's attractive. What are you smoking, Ogged?
Gawddamnit, women are useless when it comes to objectifying people. James is a fit, average-looking person. Nothing more.
He's very fit, and he has an attractive smile, and a nice profile. Larry Bird was fit and hideous; Lebron James wouldn't have any trouble getting a date even if he weren't famous.
I don't even know what to say to the people who don't think he's ugly. He might be appealing in a goofy-looking kid kind of way.
What about Dennis Rodham? He wasn't any better-looking than LeBron. And he's still sorta my favorite player ever.
What about this guy? He certainly looks ugly in motion, but not in these still photos. Possibly because they don't show the back of his head.
People used to say Ilgauskas was ugly, but that was mostly because of his beard, which made people confuse him with Vlade Divac. Now that he's clean-shaven he looks like a nie friendly chap.
Ugly means unpleasant to look at. He's not a pretty-boy, but he's got an attractive face. Don't I get any credibility for being a straight woman, who should know whether a man's attractive (and I note Cala, also a straight woman, said the same thing upthread)? Where's Pants or Cerebrocrat when you need them for backup?
Larry Bird didn't even look fit -- although he must have been in good shape, he spent his career draped in subcutaneous fat. Additionally, Lebron isn't ugly, he just isn't incredibly hot. And it goes without saying that ogged's a racist.
Look, I'm just going to take anyone saying that he's good-looking as further evidence of liberal mushiness and lack of standards, not to mention the decline of civilization. And we're talking about "the face" of the NBA here, not Drew Gooden, or Ilgauskus or Rodman, or any other bit player. He's much worse-looking than Dwyane Wade, or Kobe, and not even in the same universe as Michael, who all the women wanted to sleep with, while all their husbands thought, "Yeah, I'd totally let Michael sleep with my wife."
My claim isn't that he's handsome, but that he isn't less handsome than other NBA marketing darlings. Average-looking, and fit, which makes him better looking than most Americans.
B's such a fan that she almost spelled his name right.
I don't even know what to say to the people who don't think he's ugly.
I think Lebron James falls squarely into the category of "perfectly OK looking."
Larry Bird, indeed, is a funny-looking guy. Since Snarkout and I watched Get Carter just this week, I am reminded of the immortal line: "I'd almost forgotten what your eyes looked like. Still the same. Pissholes in the snow."
The great Michael Caine version, or the much lesser Stallone?
80, 81: If the NBA is counting on my fandom, they're fucked.
You know ugly? Greg Oden. Brother be rough. On the other hand he gets it done so more power to him.
We're in the CBA now.
Ogged, as much as it pains me to side with the forces of mushiness and social decay, I must confess that LeBron never struck me as particularly unattractive. Of course, he does appear frequently with Ilguaskas and Varejao and Donyell Marshall, so we have all sorts of framing problems.
Don't any of our commenters work on Madison Avenue? I'm like, objectively right.
You people are weird. That Greg Oden guy isn't ugly; he's totally got the craggy good looking thing going on. If Labs and Ogged weren't so damn gay, maybe they'd be able to appreciate men who look like men, rather than like teenage girls.
Craggy good looking? I'm starting to feel bad that you flirt with me, B.
89: I'd buy ugly for Oden, but not in a way that's going to hold him back. I hate to keep dumping on Bird, but it's not just that Bird was uglier than someone like Oden, he was ugly different. Oden, while a harsh looking guy, isn't unpleasant to have in your field of view, while Bird you wanted to throw a tarp over so you wouldn't have to look at him.
The ugliness of LeBron (and Oden, for god's sake) is pretty like the principle of non-contradiction: you have to assent to it before you can have an opinion about people's looks. You people are cracking me up. I smell a conspiracy.
I can't believe you monsters are disrespecting Larry Bird.
is pretty like
I blame the matriarchy.
Oden's look could be appealing in the "weathered and tough" way if he were, say, 40, instead of being a college freshman.
You know how you we know Brock is straight: he has no taste in men.
Clearly, there's no black man that the good liberal women of Unfogged are willing to call ugly. Black Republicans don't count.
Patrick Ewing was unfortunate looking.
ogged's strategy: when soundly defeated, start a fight about race and or gender. One--- and a bonus! if the fight includes both.
No discussion of ugly NBA players can be complete without mention of Tyrone Hill.
You know how you we know
I am the eggman. I am the walrus.
Cala, I'm so right about this that I'm just trying to make it as much fun for y'all as it is for me. Seriously, I think you're all out of your minds; you might as well be trying to convince me that the earth is flat.
Greg Oden looks like Moses must have looked.
84: Michael Caine, definitely. I'm not going anywhere near the Stallone version.
Has nobody mentioned Chris Kaman? You guys aren't even trying.
Maybe the problem is that we just can't measure looks against some ill-defined theoretical standard. LB at least copped to the fact that Ewing is ugly. LeBron isn't hideous, he's just average looking. Jordan was really good looking, someone like Sean Elliot is attractive, LeBron doesn't offend us, Ewing is ugly, and Sam Cassell is some other category known only to Martians.
LeBron is, therefore, not the godsend Jordan was because he's not extremely good looking.
Comity!
That was plague number eleven. Rain of frogs, river of blood, cloud of darkness, dunked on Pharaoh. Then he lets his people go, so the moral of the Bible is to let the Wookiee win.
Look, there are a lot of ugly guys in the NBA, but none who are being set up as the next icon, excep LeBron.
Also, baa's from Boston, and can't be credible on issues of attractiveness. As I've said before, people who are otherwise (or otherwhere) attractive somehow magically become unattractive in Boston. Bizarre and unexplained, but there it is.
113: cala, I'm finding it surprisingly hard to think of Exodus jokes in this context.
But he's not ugly -- I'd say better than average, although admittedly not in Jordan's class, which was 'pretty enough to make a profession of his looks, even without the basketball'.
And 113 pwns.
If you want to criticize black men for being ugly, look among the ranks of baseball players.
Moses beat the Red Sea with his cross-over. There's a Michaelangelo statue of him somewhere in Europe that makes him look like he spent a great deal of time in the weight room.
Kobe is a great scorer all right, just like Dominique Wilkins and Vince Carter. He's just as good a choice to build your team around too.
Men have many ways to be handsome. In Lebron's case, the nobility of his carriage and bearing (except when he's picking his nose), his warmth and magnanimity with teammates and fans (Aristotle named this as a characteristic of the great-souled man), his godlike body (250+ pounds and not an ounce of fat), and his divine status as the Chosen One make up for the size of his ears.
Fucker keeps cheating, though. Other teams have to wait until a pause to get some Gatorade. Moses just strikes the floor and up gushes the water.
118: Daryle Ward appears to be better looking than LeBron
Nope. Ward's the best looking of the guys linked in 118 (the rest of them, 'ugly' worked for me; for Ward, I wanted to soften it to 'not really attractive'). But he doesn't make it to actively attractive, while James does.
he doesn't make it to actively attractive, while James does
Stop needling me, LB.
Needle you? James, now there's someone I'd like to needle.
So Liz, I noticed that for the last few days, in your Google search bar you've had the names of various professional athletes combined with various synonyms for "attractive". Let's rethink this idea of giving you access to the Internet from your desk.
That Oden dude is a college freshman? Whoa.
126: Ambiguity is a terrible thing.
Damn, that guy in 101 really IS ugly, poor bastard.
As for 120, it should go without saying that "attractive" and "objectively pretty" are only partially overlapping sets. We've all met objectively homely people who became attractive once they started talking. And of course "doable" is something else again.
123: I think the word for Ward is "goofy-lookin'."
What do the people think about Eric Snow? He looks kind of weird, but also very friendly. Kind of like Pogo the Possum.
I can't believe an ugly-in-the-NBA conversation has gone on this long without mention of Popeye Jones.
Oden's look could be appealing in the "weathered and tough" way if he were, say, 40, instead of being a college freshman.
First you complain that I've insulted you, then you agree with me.
That said, I had no idea he was a college freshman. That does kinda create a problem.
Okay, yes. Popeye Jones is not by any stretch of the imagination a good-looking man. Poor guy.
Mmm. His ears have that Shrek thing going on.
I refuse to believe that nobody shares my opinion of Eric Snow.
Greg Oden was born in 1988. His face apparently came pre-weathered for your viewing enjoyment.
B, I wasn't exactly agreeing with you; I was thinking that unattractive can be appealing.
She we expect LeBron! to become a self-explaining blog comment? When?
I'm thinking that Greg Oden must have some pituitary problems---like that poor Iranian dude apo linked in 82.
As proof of the idea that all standards of attractiveness are relative I offer the following anecdote: My Brother's GF, who doesn't watch basketball, recently saw Sam Cassell doing a studio show and commented, unprompted, on how attractive he was.
I could see it, he doesn't look as strange when he's not playing basketball.
I was thinking that unattractive can be appealing.
Sure, if you yourself are approaching your forties and can't reasonably expect to do better.
One more for the chorus of "Oden's a college freshman? Damn." I wonder if he's going to get craggier as he gets older, or just stay that way.
I also wonder if he spent the last couple of years getting sent to buy beer for all of his buddies, possibly with a fake ID showing that he was 38.
From a recent SI:
The Top Three Reasons Greg Oden Isn't 19If Greg Oden is still trying to look his "age," he's not doing a very good job. In his Sunday Conversation interview with ESPN's LZ Granderson, Oden didn't do anything to prove that he's 19 years old. Here are the top three reasons why it appears Oden was born closer to 1973 then 1988.
3) What 19-year-old wears turtlenecks? Oden was dressed in a cozy-looking brown turtleneck that no college-aged kid would be caught dead in.
2) During footage shown of his much younger playing days, Oden was shown wearing something to protect his eyes. But the style was eerily similar to goggles that a certain Kareem Abdul-Jabbar used to sport. There's just no way that a kid like Oden would wear those unless his idol happened to wear them. Greg must have asked his Mom to get the goggles for him, back when they were popular in Kareem's playing days. Seeing as how Kareem retired in 1989, Oden must be at least 30 years old.
1) "I've had a mustache ever since I can remember." Most college students can recall the approximate time they started growing facial hair, but for those individuals who have been growing it for over 30 years, there's a smaller chance that a specific time can be pinpointed. Therefore, Oden has to have a few decades under his belt.
Also, he always wanted to be a dentist and watches CBS. The man has an old soul, and the face to match.
142: Sam Cassell is a well-known space alien. You might want to make sure your brother's gf isn't as well.
Sam Cassell is a well-known space alien. You might want to make sure your brother's gf isn't as well.
I am aware of that fact, but I can't think of any way to check my brother's GF's alien status that wouldn't be akward for all involved.
147: So true. And so is Nick Van Exel.
I wil always remember Van Exel. Wow.
Athletes don't need to be traditionally nice looking. Having a distinctive and expressive face is more important.
Take Dwyane Wade. He's cute, but he's just so dull. The only good commercials he's in are the ones where he's being ragged on by noted fat man Charles Barkley.
The fact that they're young, fit, tall, multi-millionaires protects ugly athletes from the heartache suffered by us run-of-the-mill unattractive types. You can snark on them without feeling bad.
I'm barely even aware of the existence of NBA, and even I know that LeBron's visage can be pretty frightening. He cleans up good for photoshoots, but he doesn't always look so pretty on the court.
I believe now is the proper time to tell all you Lebron boosters to suck it.
14 points?
BWAHAHAHAHA.
Just watched the post-game interview. LeBron: still horrendously ugly. It's the nose, mostly.
