I'm sure the denim suit was very tasteful.. Looks good on you, though.

It's painful to read depictions of awkward, embarrassing behavior that gets explained by the fact that the people involved are in their late 30's.

Yep. Every so often I wonder about signing up on Facebook, and then I think 'This can only lead to sorrow.'

It's not that big a deal to have someone as your Facebook friend. Geez Mr. Dyer, just accept his friend request and move on with your life.

Doesn't your "friend" get access to all your details or whatever?

Don't worry, LB, you and I will have our very own social network of two when the rest of humanity is on Facebook.

5 - Yes, they do. There are a lot of people in my life that I like and consider "work friends" and such that I wouldn't want having that access.

5- Yeah, your 'friend' can see your entire profile. I guess the fact that this doesn't seem problematic to me says something about my own use of these sites-- I'd never put something in my profile that I didn't want my boss (student, mom, enemy) to read.

You can set the privacy settings so that certain people can only see a limited section of your profile, even if they're on your friends list. So you can block off photo albums, say, or your phone number.

Don't worry, LB, you and I will have our very own social network of two when the rest of humanity is on Facebook.

I'm a Facebook holdout. Can I join?

I just had to send a rather tart message to someone who I don't know but who just could not get the hint that I'd been ignoring her emails and refusing her FB friend request *twice*. Urgh.

8 - Yes, but the fact that you've blocked part of your profile from someone is considered a snub, too.

Most members of my current team are about thirty years younger than I am. So far, no problems, and I'd probably be cut out of an invitation like this one. But who knows? There are some loons out there.

Sure, so long as all three of us recognize that this is a social network devoted to solitude, lack of information sharing, and isolation. Emersonian networking, in fact.

That article was like George Foreman pinning me against the ropes and unleashing shot after shot. After each one I thought, whatever happens next can't hurt more than this, but I was wrong again and again.

I'm so on the verge of taking my facebook page down. What's the use, these days?

Students send me friend requests which I feel bad turning down, but honestly, do I want the not-work-appropriate photos they pick showing up on my page? I think not.

I'm a Facebook holdout. Can I join?

You can! And you don't have to tell us anything about yourself!

10:

right: that's already enough sorrow to vindicate lb's thought in 3.

Wait, Labs has a facebook page?!?

Hang on, didn't ogged sign up for facebook in order to stalk the lifeguard?

There was a post on Riesenmaschine about a networking site that ogged, SB, and LB might like, but I can't find it anymore. However, I did just find out about this from there, so, you know.

Standpipe Bridgeplate joined the Disconnetwork network. 2:17pm

I read this story at lunch yesterday and had exactly the same thought as LB. As someone at CT said, the only thing worse than being unpopular is being unpopular and creepy.

Can I join the Emerson Notwork? My problems do not include a shortage of other people with claims on my time.

Once again, anyone who's taken the plunge and wants in on the Unfogged group can e-mail me for an invite.

didn't ogged sign up for facebook in order to stalk the lifeguard?

I have a fake-email facebook login with no info, but you can't actually see anything about anyone that way. I just wanted to poke around the site a bit.

Whippersnappers are still on your lawn. 2:19pm

I am confused although fascinated by this contemporary desire to put as much detail about your personal life as possible onto the web for all the world to see and admire. For real, why would you do this? It's convenient to have some information up, but the other stuff? Is it that we're so fascinated by celebrities that we're all trying for ersatz fame? And the stupidity! For real, if you want your friends to see your pictures, why not put them (under a non-google-y name) up on a website, such as for example a blog? Network? Rank folly, if you ask me.

24: You could join a regional network.

You could join a regional network.

I'm not actually a stalker, young Teo.

For real, if you want your friends to see your pictures, why not put them (under a non-google-y name) up on a website, such as for example a blog?

Because this would involve letting everyone know where the pictures are and what non-google-y name you used to put them there, which is more effort than just posting them under your real name on a site everyone is already on.

I am FB friends with a couple of past students, but only after the class is over. Somehow, I have avoided anyone posting anything incriminating on my wall or tagging me in inappropriate photos, but I haven't done too much evil in the past five years or so. Eh, I'm not worried about it. Of course, I have the kind of relationship with my students in which knowing a few details about my private life wouldn't send them into shock. I've heard horror stories about young instructors in the Midwest completely losing control of a class, for the rest of the semester, because the students overheard they had a birthday party or something. If I were teaching in some other place, I might feel differently about it.

28: You can see how it's hard to tell sometimes.

Or you could join Orkut with all the Brazilians.

OTOH, what I don't get is why people sign up on *anything* under their *real names* and then don't keep it basically clean enough that they don't have to worry about it. There's a reason pseudonyms exist.

19 is awesome. I especially like the bizarre testimonials:
Since I have begun Myself, I feel free.
Using Myself has freed me from always searching for the bathroom.
Myself has helped me so much.

...though before and after pictures would help.

But in re. students, Mr. Labs, you simply have to have a solid policy that you don't "friend" them until they've graduated.

I just don't get it-- wouldn't such a page and the email it entails be one more damn thing to maintain? Bad enough keeping track of matching socks.

I actually first joined facebook to look at the profiles of some of the students in a class I was teaching. (Yeah, so I'm nosy.)

It still seems weird to me. The various risks seem large and the results so often seem uninteresting, at least when people have show me their pages...and what is the one where you get "testimonials" from your friends? That's just so creepy and...and....self-branding, and job-interviewish.

Also, it seems like the main goal of a lot of these pages is to impress other people by branding yourself correctly--showing that you like the proper books and bands and that you have fun, kicky friends. I spent years attending punk shows and hanging around with cultural studies types, so I've already put in my quota of trying-too-hard.

33: Eh, what's 'clean enough'? To pick up something from the AutoAdmit mess, when you put the pictures up, they're beach pictures from your vacation. When other people start looking at them, it's 'if she didn't want people talking about her breasts, why did she post pictures of herself in a bikini on the internet?' I'm not surprised that the 'clean enough' for friends line gets a little muddy when you bring in work people and possibly hostile strangers.

s/b "have shown". Maybe more interesting people would show me their pages if I could type/spell/string together a compelling sentence.

I actually first joined facebook to look at the profiles of some of the students in a class I was teaching.

I looked up some of my students on facebook so I could remember/discover their names.

I think it's mostly just a harmless and sometimes mildly silly way of keeping in touch with people who you know well enough not to want to lose track of, but not well enough to really have a regular correspondence with.

41 is not a bad idea.

38: That's probably true of Friendster, which served as little more than a grand exercise in narcissism tempered by occasional erotic desire, but I use FB to have quick contacts with a lot of groups of people, send out messages about softball games and other harmless things. It's also helpful to see someone's "status" line, which often says when they're working or out of town, so that I know who's around and not.

Sure, so long as all three of us recognize that this is a social network devoted to solitude, lack of information sharing, and isolation.

I'm in.

I'm in.

It's probably against charter to announce these things.

41:

several universities i have taught at already had an institutional version of that. access only to students, or to instructors of record. i.e., i could look at the picture of a student if and only if that student was currently registered in a course i was teaching.

The trick is to have a Facebook page and not use it. I keep it accurate in broad outline, and when spending a lot of time with friends who use it a lot then I wind up using it more than usual, but my Facebook page get checked every few days and updated every few weeks, if that. I'm not in the habit of taking pictures of myself drunk, so no one expects them to get posted. If someone wants to find me by interest or geographical location rather than by name, they can -- the organizer of the local chapter of Drinking Liberally did that when he got it started, for example -- and vice versa, and that's about it.

My university has a function on class webpages that allows anyone with instructor status to look a the ID photos of all the students enrolled in the class. Confusingly, this feature is also called the Facebook.

The first semester I taught I thought it was really creepy that I could look at all the students' pictures before I had even met them. I mentioned that on the first day of class, and they had no idea why that would be weird. This was five years ago. I guess I wouldn't find it so weird if I encountered it for the first time today.

When someone let me poke around using their facebook profile, I was pretty surprised to see how many of you are having parallel conversations there. All this blog commenting isn't enough for you people?

42 and 44 get it right.

SB, LB, ogged, Emerson, and I are moving here.

48 gets it right.

Facebook isn't necessarily something you have to spend a lot of time on; lots of people just set up a profile and basically don't check the site after that unless someone friends them or invites them to something.

When I started college, they gave us an actual book with pictures and names of our fellow freshman. It was called "the face book." Olden days, you know.

42: And also a good way of keeping in touch with the mundane activities of life of distant friends and relatives. I find it's much more important to know that "Jill is heading out to celebrate Jack's retirement" or "Joe is eating potato chips" than the usual litany of accomplishments and major emotional trail markers than characterize normal long distance communications between people that aren't lovers.

39: True. Which is why my real name profiles tend to be quite boring. I don't even have pictures of myself as an adult on Facebook.

45: You're all a bunch of joiners.

Damn, if I'm going to be alone, I want to be alone by myself.

You might need other people to help enforce your aloneness.

44 gets it right. I don't know why Frowner is making a big deal about the idea of putting up information about yourself online, especially in a venue where only your friends can see it. It lets people who know each other realize that they have things in common. It fills out your impressions of other people. Most importantly for me, it lets me get back in touch with people, and transfer information about myself to them without trying to decide "Which people should I notify about my address change? I want people to know what I'm up to, but if I go to the effort of actually emailing people out of the blue I'll seem like an egomaniac."

56: Yes, exactly. I like to know when my friends are content enough to eat potato chips.

55: I didn't send in a picture for that. At the UofC, they substitute a picture of a gargoyle.

62 is awesome.

It's probably against charter to announce these things.

I thought the two options were to either announce the intent to join without actually joining or to join, without announcing, create a profile and never update any of the information.

I went with the simpler option.

At the UofC, they substitute a picture of a gargoyle.

You know, this has never occurred to me before, but I was probably in the U of C one, but not in the one of the school I attended, since I switched at the last minute. Weird.

60: Well, you can if you want, I guess. Me, I haven't really adjusted to having to check voicemails. (Although that's partly because of the unbearably annoying and protracted procedure). I suppose I ought to, just because it seems like a web presence is an expectation for professional-class people, and although I am only a secretary, academics often like their secretaries to seem a rung or two higher on the class ladder than they actually are.

59: There's never a shortage of those.

I joined Facebook just a couple of weeks ago and haven't figured out what it's good for, exactly. Not enough of my IRL friends are on it. (I'm early 30s.)

I refuse to check voicemail. I figure if people really want to talk to me, they can email or call back.

It's just like the pre-answering machine era! Why I pay for vm I have no idea.

I dunno, my working-class nieces are all webbed up. The My-Space/FaceBook class distinction holds, but I don't think internettiness at all is a professional class marker.

(Obviously, there's going to be a dropoff at socioeconomic levels where internet service/a computer isn't affordable, but that's not professional class.)

68: Yeah, I'm not sure how useful it is for people who don't have a lot of friends on already to join. For people my age, Facebook is so ubiquitous that asking why someone would use it is like asking why you would want a phone.

Not so much that if you aren't on the intertube you must be dreadfully proletarian but "if you're so damn professional and all, why aren't you at least on the internet?". I don't want to seem weird in my work role, you know--secretaries can't be visibly weird until they've attained to power, at least not if they want to attain to power.

Speaking of social distortion on the internet, would it be very, very wrong of me to take revenge on my assholic roommate (who's starting to screw us all over bigtime) by creating a blog called [realname]isanasshole.blogspot.com, and then comment-spamming it all over the place to get its google rank up to first?

I've already figured out that I should do it from an internet cafe so as to cloak my ISP, and that truth or colorable "opinion" could be defenses against libel. As far as I understand, "malicious intent"---which I certainly have---could translate into legal problems for me. Aside from the legal concerns and the possible damage to my immortal soul, is there anything wrong with this idea?

I think one of the reasons why this stuff is associated with the professional classes might well be that we just travel around so fucking much.

Aside from the legal concerns and the possible damage to my immortal soul, is there anything wrong with this idea?

All I can think of is that he'll probably figure out who's behind it and take revenge on you. Otherwise it sounds like an awesome idea.

73:

very, very wrong? dunno. probably not advisable, though. sounds really fun, and even well-deserved. but it just seems like the sort of thing that will end in tears, yours among them. (not that you don't know all this already).

Yes, and in order to mimic the professional classes (protective coloration!) I must give the appearance of moving around. (Although we're thinking of actually moving away! Away, away!)

73: Well, you might end up as a star feature on passiveaggressivenotes.com.

74: Need to fix the word order at the end of the penultimate line.

JM, that seems like a really bad idea. You'd get found out eventually. If you like, we can have a thread about creative revenge.

77: Well, you do have invisible internet friends.

Aside from the legal concerns and the possible damage to my immortal soul, is there anything wrong with this idea?

His or her response, possibly?

77: Your steady date has progressed to the point where you're thinking about moving as a 'we'? Nice!

Move to the East Coast, so you can start showing up at meetups.

I was thinking of doing it after either I move out (in which case he's screwed me out of a nice apartment and will be facing legal trouble anyway, I hope) or he does (in which case he'll have caused me heartache and gotten away with not paying rent for a month).

I joined it purely to try to put names to faces amongst the undergrad members of my fraternity (I'm on the alumni board). I have utterly failed to do so, but I am happy to know that an old, old, old friend from whom I hadn't heard in ten years is alive and well and thoughtful enough to friend me and I guess that makes it worthwhile. Now I only check it when the email tells me someone has friended me and I need to deal with that or leave them feeling insulted. I am perpetually haunted by the spectre of thought that someone I know will find out I'm on Facebook and think this is some attempt on my part to be Creepy Thirties Guy Who Thinks He's Hip, thus I have never sought anyone out to initiate the friending. My profile picture is a completely non-identifying, heavily photoshopped profile I used on the group blog of our former residence and it had never even occurred to me that people might put up more than one picture.

How weird is he? From what you've said, I'm thinking borderline scary weird. I wouldn't do it unless you're actively looking forward to the confrontation when he finds out it's you, because you know he will. And I'd say that even if you think you're looking forward to that, you should think hard about it.

I was thinking of doing it after either I move out (in which case he's screwed me out of a nice apartment and will be facing legal trouble anyway, I hope) or he does (in which case he'll have caused me heartache and gotten away with not paying rent for a month).

He may still know enough about you--where you work, who your boyfriend is, etc.-- to cause problems if he wants.

Yeah, the thing about the plan is that the sorts of things you're likely to put up to demonstrate his assholishness would likely make it very easy for him to find out it's you.

Didn't we conclude that dancers are muscular? JM should just kick his ass.

Borderline scary weird, yes, but also stupid and self-absorbed. And also, from what I've seen on his google results to date, not very internet-present.

Ah, I knew it was a bad idea. God, I hate him.

73: One problem with the plan is that the rest of us don't want the comment spam.

Have his mail forwarded to Alaska.

That might be a federal offense, however.

83: That would be the steady date, yeah. A rather horrifying turn of events, all things considered.

We're thinking that I could parlay my fantastic academic secretary skills into a job 'most anywhere, and similarly for Steady Date....so we could actually Leave The Midwest. I'm not sure we're good enough for NYC, though. (And I mean we'd arrange jobs before we moved, having good sense as I flatter myself that at least one of us does.)

Also, a Facebook question: is there such a thing as "friend spamming?" I ask because my profile sees very, very little action but today I've gotten several friend requests from random names I don't recognize. I haven't yet logged into it to check whether these are people I just think I don't know; a couple of weeks ago I was about to refuse a request when I abruptly realized I didn't recognize them because they were the real identity of a blogger with whom I'd emailed before. Today, though, it's enough to ask.

JM, was this the guy that you gave notice to? Why is he still there?

One thing NYC has is colleges. Of course, it also has freakish real-estate prices, so if you're not for biographical reasons phobic about living anyplace else, it's probably a poor idea.

He doesn't get any mail, as far as I can tell. Seriously, all this guy does take showers, fuck, and talk loudly on his cell phone. Then he "goes to college" every once in a while.

97 to 94, and to 93, yeah, what's the awful guy done?

95: There is a certain amount of that sort of thing, and I suspect the incidence of it is increasing as people discover the marketing potential in these sites, but I've never noticed a whole lot of it.

94: The Pacific NorthWest is a beautiful place to live.

I've been on the site about 6 months, and have gotten about 6 friend requests from people or things I've never heard of. The problem is about 100 times worse on Myspace, I've heard.

96.---Yeah. Technically, he has until the end of this month to leave. However, as he's feeling wounded at having been asked to leave, he's no longer paying rent (or utilities or for toilet paper, for God's sake). Ever since discovering the shiny new lock on his bedroom door, I've become convinced that he does not intend to leave when we all originally agreed he would.

In order to get him gone, however, the primary tenant of the apartment will have to bring him to court; that primary tenant (I think) is a person who's out of town and hard to contact.

99: Yeah, probably not NYC. But a cascade of awful things have overwhelmed many of my favorite Minneapolis institutions, plus we jointly realized that almost all our close friends will be leaving in a couple of years, either because finishing grad school or in order to start grad school. And honestly, if you're not in grad school it's hard to meet nerdy fancy-book-reading types 'round here, the more so as you get older. Or maybe we're just unappealing and we should move to a town full of awful, awful people so that we'll seem delightful by contrast and hence be sought-after.

Also, you know, I hate to say it, but this plan might end not with a bang but with a whimper. You plan to make a site mocking him the main Google hit on his name. Even if you succeed, what if he and/or his acquaintances or employer or whoever doesn't Google his name that much? It'll be a lot of work for something that probably won't be noticed for weeks and possibly never.

Granted, maybe he's the egotistical type that Googles himself daily, or maybe he has a pretty public career so he gets Googled a lot anyway. Or maybe you could just send him a pseudonymous e-mail about it. But still, it's the kind of thing you have to consider.

94: But Frowner, why would you want to move to a rightwing part of the country?

104: Like what awful things? I'm very fond of Minneapolis, so I'm curious about it.

My brother is a nerdy fancy-book-reading type, long out of grad school and living in St. Paul. I'd say you should look him up, but all the fancy books he likes to read these days are about the early Church fathers and whatnot. Nice guy, but a little too keen on Jesus for my taste.

105.---True enough. He's talking about going to law school, though, and admissions people and law firms both google candidates' names. He's also a compulsive dater, and NYC girls google the names of their interests...

In re JM's unfortunate roommate I must say that the concept of random apartment sharing is one that I have never had to endure, for which I am eternally thankful. Freshman year of college was the last one, and he transfered. Yay me.

109: Yes, this is the sort of thing that makes me not want to move to NYC.

Wreak some havoc here, JM.

104: What if the awful people like other awful people, and your contrasting delightfulness leaves you shunned?

And what about Boston? Kneedeep in colleges, if you're set on the career path (seriously, if you like secretarying, but were thinking of slightly more money, you could do very nicely as a legal secretary. Anything specifically legal you could pick up in a month or two, and trust me, you'd be appreciated.) and I have the pretty strong impression that there's a large population of academicy-but-no-longer-doing-anything-actually-academic types.

107: Oh, mostly activist/hippie stuff. My favorite co-op (North Country, the only non-yuppie one in town) seems to be going under; the city is really, finally, seriously gunning for grubby, soothing Hard Times Cafe, the bookstore where I volunteer is probably going to morph into a show space just to stay open, which I can't fault but seriously, if I wanted to run a cafe/music venue I'd do it for pay. Plus the redevelopment has snowballed and a lot of places I used to like are covered with really stupid bars (the kind that look like they're a chain but they aren't) or new condos.

There's still a lot to like here, but not as much as there used to be.

Maybe the thing to do is to outsource the revenge project to w-lfs-n. He's a sneaky little shit.

Of course, it also has freakish real-estate prices, so if you're not for biographical reasons phobic about living anyplace else, it's probably a poor idea.

Wait, what? There are lots of reasons to want to live in New York, and two people sharing a one bedroom could get a quite nice place someplace far in the outer boroughs if they don't mind a longish subway commute. The calculations only disfavor living in New York when you have children.

Frowner, if you want info about how to get employment at Major New York University, I can hook you up with some, but it wouldn't involve arranging something before you left.

seriously, if you like secretarying, but were thinking of slightly more money, you could do very nicely as a legal secretary. Anything specifically legal you could pick up in a month or two, and trust me, you'd be appreciated.

Speaking as a legal secretary, I agree.

I'm not sure the legal world would really be Frowner's cup of tea, though.

Tia!

And you're probably right -- I'm just thinking about taking a big salary cut, and then thinking about how cheap housing is everyplace else in the goddamn country. (Okay, not the Bay Area. But everyplace else.) And feeling self-indulgent for wanting to stay anyway.

111.----I think that would only work if that site were extensively googlebot-crawled. It doesn't seem to be hugely trafficked or known.

If your asshole roommate makes you lose that sweet, sweet apartment, you should have every right to cut him. What NYC jury would convict? Just show them pictures of how large your kitchen is and the hardwood floors.

That's the attitude, Becks! Yay, affirmation!

112: It's not so much that I'm attached to secretary-ing as that I'm not really qualified for many jobs, my resume is rather odd and I'm old enough that I don't really want to embark on a major professional degree because I'd be in my late thirties when I was done. But does one have to undertake major retraining to be a legal secretary? Although then I'd have to work for lawyers, and don't they treat their secretaries with scorn and brutality and yelling?

Boston actually might be nice. I like Boston. I like the trains, so clanky.

115: Sure, Tia, any advice welcome...although if we moved to NY I'd be a little worried about sharing a one-bedroom. I do like my own room, at least as an option. Maybe we could build a wall out of legos or something.

117: I dunno. While lawyers can be awful, I don't see a lot of unpleasantness directed secretary-ward. One downside would be that displaying competence would be an automatic way of getting asked to do a whole bunch of overtime, but I know plenty of secretaries who won't work overtime here, and that gets respected.

I like the trains, so clanky.

Believe me, the nostalgia factor gets old pretty fast. (And I HATE that I can't bitch about the Boston subway without feeling I have to thank my lucky stars that I live in a part of the U.S. that even has a subway.)

There's always legal secretarying for a university general counsel's office. I hear those tend to be nice places.

Anybody have anything particularly good or particularly bad to say about the DC area for people not in the Becks/Ezra/Sausagely et al. demographic?

I'm feeling restless now too. I have virtually no faith in either my own or my boss's ability to design a meaningful series of non-impossible experiments that could be compiled for . Then again, several students have in fact graduated under his tutelage, and they can't all be cases of people who were pitied and allowed to leave by the other committee members who recognized my boss's incompetence at planning. Then again, most of them had substantially more experience when they entered the program than I did, so I will probably waste more time on unfeasible things that don't work. And my lab is (completely undeservedly) one of the few that isn't worried about funding vanishing in the next couple years, so if I were more experienced and able to work independently (or alternately if I had no trouble with staying in the program for more than 6 years) I would be in a very good position.

I need to be simultaneously taking courses toward another degree in case this PhD doesn't work out. However, those courses are expensive. However, I do have actual assets instead of being in debt. However, I don't know if I should reduce my assets just to get a Master of Public Health degree. But wouldn't that be a lot less risky than actually going into debt for it? And it's not like my assets are enough to live on for a year anyway.

could be compiled for a dissertation.

124: Huh. That is actually a thought. I suppose the nice thing about being a legal secretary would be that it's rather hard to outsource. Plus lawyers always have money, unlike academics. I bet I'd need to dress better,though.

122: No on the retraining -- the specificially legal stuff you'd pick up in a month, and most of them never get it. (Mostly, all a secretary needs to know is a pretty small subset of legal citation form enough to spot typos. And again, saying 'needs to know' ignores the fact that mostly they don't.)

On the horribleness of lawyers -- eh, we're horrible, but the stress usually doesn't get directed at the secretary. Like, the having you at a meeting and not feeding you thing? That was totally alien anything I've ever seen.

lawyers always have money

The catch is that they don't share worth a shit.

I bet I'd need to dress better,though.

Nope. Again, I don't speak for all law firms, but I haven't seen one where the secretaries are expected to be sharper than pretty minimal business casual.

I'm really a terrible person -- I'm sitting here giving career advice, and I'm mostly thinking about the good turn I'm doing some lawyer down the road if you take it. I've had one useful secretary in my eight years of practice, and it was really nice not doing everything myself to make sure it actually got done.

But I bet it does pay better.

132: This is starting to sound almost too promising. Are you sure you aren't trying get me to send away for a $39.95 "You Too Can Become A Legal Secretary" packet?

But y'all, what about JackMormon? Can she figure out a way to hurt this fellow? Surely the Unfoggetariat has some suggestions?

I bet I'd need to dress better,though.

Not necessarily. In an Oxford shirt and khakis I'm by far the best-dressed person around the office most days. This obviously varies a lot, though.

135:

I'm starting to think teofilo actually *is* ty braxton.

Who?

134: Damn, busted. But you can make three easy payments, and study at home in your spare time!

137:
sorry.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27698

lb, don't read it. it'll make you cry.

Can she figure out a way to hurt this fellow?

I'm starting to doubt it.

I've read it, and there was a pang or two.

Poison his sex-oatmeal?

139: Yup, that's basically me.

142: With saltpeter! See, now we're getting somewhere.

He's stopped serving his girls even oatmeal. They're all down to ice cubes now.

145: WTF? Ice cubes?

JM, if you know people in his circle of acquaintances, you can spread nasty rumors about him. Small penis, weird rash, likes to shit in the shower, etc.

Ice can be formed into sharp shapes; evidence melts away.

Borderline scary weird, yes, but also stupid and self-absorbed.

Great. Just the sort who'll attempt to kill you for revenge but leave you scarred and paraplegic instead.

Ice cubes: the only thing he replenishes in the apartment. The sound of the ice cubes breaking into the sink is the sure sign that he is done having sex and is about to take a forty-five minute shower.

I don't know anyone in his circle, nor do I want to.

148 would be a spoiler if I could remember where I got that from.

146: I realize the injustice is painful.

The sound of the ice cubes breaking into the sink is the sure sign that he is done having sex and is about to take a forty-five minute shower.

God, the seething hate drips for your words. I feel like Palpatine in encouraging this. Gooood.

You should all swear off ice cubes and make up trays of ice cubes with laxative in them. Just enough to get things flowing. Get him dehydrated and weak and then drag his ass out of the apartment.

Then let the remaining ice cubes melt away, destroying the evidence.

146, 152: It's just that women don't like nice guys.

If having a visual helps anyone, my awful roommate is almost a dead ringer for this Pete Wentz guy , except blond.

And with more ice cubes.

I'm not sure that the first picture that comes up with safesearch disabled is what you wanted to convey, there.

Ty Braxton of the onion article actually sort of resembles Tyondai Braxton of real life.

158.--Oh. I hadn't noticed the nudie pictures. No, I don't know anything, mercifully, about my roommate's genitals, except that I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot plastic-wrapped pole.

11: My facebook profile at present doesn't include my e-mail, number, or birth date because I don't want them distributed as widely as facebook would cause them to be. I take your implication to be that f I were to include them but block some people from seeing them, the people who were blocked would see something different from what they currently do. Is that right?

Now I must leave, so unless anyone has any good revenge plans, go ahead and talk about other things.

JM, the website in 119 actually got a fair bit of press. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

But can't you just change the locks on the front door some day when he's out? Tell him his stuff will be available curbside at, say, 11 AM, and will be unattended after noon?

163.---Nope. That's illegal in NYC.

I'll look into that website again, thanks.

I have one of those clean profiles. No pictures of beer or 3way kissing or mooning people or bongs or anything. Mostly useful so when people in the office are like "HEY, lets be fb friends" i can be ok. its kida like a phone: i have one, but use it an order of magnitdue less then most kids.

i got a slew of friend request from these high school freshmen girls one week a few months ago, but it turned out some creepy friend had hacked their accounts or something.

I have my fb profile open to anyone in the networks i've got.

There were a couple big stories in our City Paper about a guy suing an ex-girlfriend for something on dontdatehimgirl.com. Apparently it really screwed up his social life. As far as anyone could tell, though, the stories were all true, and even if they weren't he wouldn't have won his lawsuit. What a douche.

It seemed from the articles that the site was used primarily by African-Americans, but that may not be true.

Frowner, do consider Seattle or Portland. Both have universities, both have a mellow but urban vibe that's quite like Minneapolis, actually, both are in beautiful parts of the country. Seattle's more urban and more diverse; Portland's more affordable and (from what my friends tell me) has race problems in much the same liberalish way that Minneapolis does. Seattle doesn't get as hot, and it sure as shit doesn't get as cold as Minneapolis in the winter. But it's pretty similar in vibe and affect.

Plus, it has tons of indie bookstores and coops and it's really quite livable with only one car, no matter what people try to tell you.

All unfogged commentators who want to do a dramatic move / career change should get together, pick a city, and rent a group house. That would be very entertaining for everyone. And also save on rent!

There do seem to be a lot of us.

Also, there could be a television show. Real World style. Maybe on Youtube.

94: picking locks is a fun skill to learn anyhow, and there's tons of fun things you could do with access to his room (something nasty in the heating vent, mess with his electrical wiring, remove single pages from books (although I suppose he probably doesn't read). Alternately, go to the cafe and post lots of really sick messages from his name to Yahoo forums and whatnot.

Ordering things to be delivered COD can be fun, too. Drop a fake jury summons in the mailbox, or...

Oh.

I totally have it.

Put a letter in the mailbox with a handwritten note in feminine handwriting, and an ultrasound. Mention something about a paternity test (for bonus points, the DNA came from an ice cube somehow), catholic upbringing, child support, and upcoming court date.

Not sure that'd even be illegal!

Frowner I bet you would love Somerville to death. Boston is the dream city for interesting post-academic layabouts. And you're already equipped to deal with the weather.

Somerville certainly is nice, at least away from Winter Hill (though for all I know, that's cleaned up by now as well--haven't been in a while.) It's hard to remember the days when Slummerville actually was an apt description. I remember back in the '80's dating a girl who lived in Davis Sq.; she complained about it a lot, nothing there at all. Nowadays I wish I could afford to live there--or at least a few years ago I did, for all I know it's played out there now.

Providence, now that's where it's at. I'm only partly kidding.

JM: I think that you should find AWB's Max and have him talk privately to the guy.

Seriously, discreetly applied physical intimidation by a third party might work.

174: Somerville is pretty much safe everywhere now. JP slightly less so, but not much. They also are both pretty expensive. People are being driven as far out as Roslindale and Malden.

Providence is awesomely cheap, and has a surprisingly fun music and art scene, but no jobs, y'know?

Frowner: One advantage of Portland compared to Boston or Seattle is that PSU is pretty much third-rank, so Portland is not so PhD-heavy and status-conscious as the other two. There are a lot of educated non-career non-professionals there.

168 gets it exactly right.

The RTP area in NC has universities galore, tons of jobs, good weather, low housing costs, and is solidly liberal. No public transit to speak of, however.

People are being driven as far out as Roslindale and Malden.

The SO is OFD, as I never tire of mentioning. When we were exiled from Somerville I suggested we look at Roslindale rather than move to Providence. Her response? Rozzie was "too far away." And Providence wasn't?

Providence is awesomely cheap, and has a surprisingly fun music and art scene, but no jobs, y'know?

Partly true. It's no longer awesomely cheap (cheaper than Boston, sure, but much more expensive than it was a decade ago--Boston and New York people have bought up the town) and there are some jobs. Just not many. Hence my daily commute north. But hey, they're adding more service to the commuter rail; it's about 40 minutes from Porter Sq. in Somerville to downtown, why not live in Providence and take the train? 20 minute longer commute (if you work downtown) and somewhat lower cost of living. And you'll never need to worry about spending money at Trader Joe's, because they hate us.

But hey, they're adding more service to the commuter rail

Well, yeah, eventually. That wouldn't be a bad train commute, though. Does it get super crowded?

There's a good chance I'll be spending a month or so this summer about 20 minutes north of you, though unfortunately nowhere near any commuter rail.

I sorta wish i move out to seattle, but lack of snow in the winter and it would be a pain in the ass to find a job. also kinda far from a big city that has art museums and stuff.

Also, that 'NW girls don't wear heels or makeup' thing someone here on unfogged mentioned once is sorta scary.

Also, all that rain would mean i really shouldn't spend money on nice shoes.

Does it get super crowded?

I don't take it regularly anymore--I work in Wormtown--but when I did, it could get very crowded. And that was seven or eight years ago, so I imagine it's worse now. The scene is pretty annoying, though, even if it's not wall-to-wall people. There's all these people who ride every day and hang out together, playing cards or telling jokes, which sounds nice, but in practice is unbearable. They tend to be really loud and obnoxious, and all seem to live in Attleboro.

There's a good chance I'll be spending a month or so this summer about 20 minutes north of you

Well, I'm a meet-up hating, anti-social person, but I think the other NE members of the Unfoggetariat should demand some sort of gathering.

I found Boston to have lousy weather and to be full of unfriendly people. Actually the least friendly city I've ever been in, New Englanders seem downright surly sometimes. Quite overpriced for what it is. True it is jam-packed with academics though. The Harvard/MIT sort of academic is a little different from your Midwestern public U. scene though.

If I had real freedom to move to a place for quality of life alone, I'd target attractive midsize cities with good quality of life and low costs. Pittsburgh is a good town from what I've seen. The whole West Coast is expensive but IME worth it -- beautiful and there are all sorts of scenes to be part of.

I found Boston to have lousy weather and to be full of unfriendly people. Actually the least friendly city I've ever been in, New Englanders seem downright surly sometimes.

See, you should have gone in late June or mid September. Then the weather's great! People are still surly, though.

I've been out west for ten years, but I'm still much more of a cynical bastard than most Californians.

182: Seattle is a big city with an art museum. Admittedly not exactly the Met, but a collection of 23,000 objects isn't too shabby. Portland has a relatively sizable museum, too, and both cities have (from what I read--I follow their art scene from afar) some very good galleries and artists working there.

Actually, you know, it's stupid to say you want attractive midsize cities with good quality of life and low costs, because who doesn't? But seriously, Pittsburgh is cheap and underrated, I think one of the most underrated cities in the U.S. Thriving university scene (Pitt, CMU, Duquesne, etc.), doing pretty well economically, physically beautiful city by east coast standards.

Washington, Oregon, Northern California, British Columbia just can't be beat if you love the outdoors. OK, some places in the interior Mountain West are great too, but outside of maybe Denver they aren't as good culturally.

I've been out west for ten years, but I'm still much more of a cynical bastard than most Californians.

Awwww!!! Someone needs a hug!!!!!

189: really, I've had plenty. I love California, the optimism, the sunshine. I feel like a Californian. But my sense of humor is vastly more cutting than a native's. What can ya do, you know?

Someone from California once said to me: "realistic is the most cynical I can get". Funny, because realistic is the most optimistic I get.

Oh, Pittsburgh has great art museums too. EVERYBODY MOVE TO PITTSBURGH!

I like the Midwest quite a bit, though I was a miserable bastard living in Chicago, but I have to say that the happy, smiling, friendliness of many of the people out there often bugged the shit out of me. People who don't know me talking to me? WTF? At least out here we're honest about hating our fellow man.

190: Um, joke. Clearly you've been hanging around the wrong natives.

193 reminds me that Chicago always struck me as cool too. Brutal winters, but great architecture, beautiful lakefront, several of the world's great universities, reasonable cost of living, down to earth people. But I never lived there or spent much time there, so I couldn't really say.

Despite all this, I'm moving to DC for a job.

194: but I love hugs!

196: I meant that if you thought your sense of humor was too cutting for California, you've been hanging around the wrong natives.

great architecture

Every morning I used to walk by the Robie house on the way to class or work. Every time I'd think to myself, "It looks like a big damn boat." I was very pleased when, after leaving Chicago and studying the house's history, that early critics of Wright, especially German ones, lauded it precisely for its resemblance to a steamship. Very modern and all that.

I grew up in Pittsburgh and must agree (despite my adolescent eagerness to get the hell out) that it has many charms.

197: there's some grumpy bastards in SF, it's true. Maybe I meant Southern California?

I am under the impression that I would love to live in Chicago, though I have only visited many times and may be quite wrong. The winters are a bummer, but we have almost the same ones here in Cleveland, and so far I haven't died of them.

Providence is fantastic, or was when I was in college there. Pittsburgh is nice, too, but I bet that it's gone to seed since the Big O shut down.

doesn't cleveland get a lot more snow than chicago?

Well, there's a lot to love about Chicago, as I'm sure some of the hosts of this site would be happy to point out. I think I would prefer Cleveland, though (admittedly I've never been, but I've long wanted to visit.)

I knew I didn't like Chicago when I moved there--it was a purely expedient decision. And I do love the Art Institute and the Oriental Institute. As for the rest, when a German girl asked me at a party there why I didn't like the town, I said because it was flat and ugly. "Like the women," she sniffed.

I recently moved from Cleveland...my impression was that you get my lake effect snow in Cleveland (although it varies by which side of town you're on), but the wind and cold was worse in Chicago.

Chicago is the only Midwestern city that really survived as a great world city after deindustrialization. Cleveland is filled with ghosts, it's easy to tell there was once something great there that is now gone.

I would bite that German in the torso and give her a disease.

Whoops, *more* lake effect snow. Although sometimes it felt like it was my lake effect.

it was flat and ugly.

This could be said of Cleveland too.

Cleveland is like Chicago would be if half the population and pretty much all of the world-class institutions left.

admittedly I've never been, but I've long wanted to visit.

Color me mystified. Why Cleveland? It's fine, but it doesn't seem like a tourist Mecca.

Cleveland gets more snow than Chicago (boo lake effect!) but Chicago gets colder.

I would bite that German in the torso and give her a disease.

Maybe. She was pretty imposing, though. Like all stereotypes of Germans rolled into one; I wouldn't mess.

redfoxtailshrub...where do you live in Cleveland?

Pwned by Marcus. And that's actually a very succinct description of the difference between Chicago and Cleveland -- there was room for one and only one Midwestern financial center, and Chicago leveraged the options exchange (a legacy of meatpacking days, I believe), beating out St. Louis and Cleveland. I'm sure the Mayor For Life's attempts to prevent white flight didn't hurt, bad as they were in other ways.

Why Cleveland? It's fine, but it doesn't seem like a tourist Mecca.

That's part of the point! Plus, the Cleveland Museum of Art is a very serious place--one of the best museums in the country, though unfortunately all closed down right now.

I also really want to visit Milwaukee. And not just for their museum.

Snarkout and I live in Cleveland Heights, in Coventry, which some airline magazine or other apparently recently claimed is the Soho of Cleveland. We're both working at Case while I write my dissertation.

I have yet to go to the Cleveland Museum of Art, partly because it's mostly been closed while I'm here and partly because I have weird uppity Pittsburgh-rivalry feelings about it.

Cleveland has a history of almosts -- almost got the auto industry, almost had a financial industry (used to have one of the major U.S. stock exchanges), almost developed the aerospace industry...but in the end it didn't get big enough to make it through when the rust belt crashed.

Cities like Cleveland have to follow Pittsburgh's lead and become an attractive, livable, regional center with a diverse economic base instead of a world city.

Plus, the Cleveland Museum of Art is a very serious place--one of the best museums in the country, though unfortunately all closed down right now.

It's open again, and rfts and I have been holding up our part of the bargain by not attending.

If you go to Milwaukee, hit a Brewers game and watch the sausage race.

The Cleveland Museum of Art is a great, fantastic museum filled to the rafters with magnificent stuff. It's a real crime that they recently shut it down for so many years -- a real example of a non-profit board choosing to indulge their Edifice Complex over serving their public.

Redfoxtailshrub -- I still know some people around your way, maybe we should have a drink or something if I come through visiting again. I used to live on Hampshire right off Coventry. Nice little area, but Tremont is much closer to being the Soho of Cleveland.

208: mind, I'd like to visit Cleveland. I think a long weekend would satisfy. That I think I might prefer it to Chicago doesn't mean that I really want to live there.

Although the fact of it being a deserted (relatively speaking) town appeals to me. I much preferred Providence back in the '80's and early '90's to the town of today. Fewer upscale restaurants I can't afford anyway, less of the ghost town where people could carve out their own freaky scene--not to mention the value of architecture left alone.

Oh yeah, Cleveland is very artinruins. Haunted for sure. I liked that about it. Although as another friend of mine said after they left the city, "I got tired of that dying feeling".

By all means! We live on Hampshire ourselves, as it happens. I agree about Tremont, too, and mentioned the airline magazine mainly for absurdity value. Though you might be surprised, slightly -- Coventry just obtained a boutique clothing shop with $240 skirts and $80 men's t-shirts and the like.

Oh, snarkout, you're in Cleveland too. I sense a NE Ohio meetup someday.

Love your blog, BTW.

Snarkout and I are married.

A friendly acquaintance (one of the guys from Purple Ivy Shadows, though to my discredit I can't remember which one) was involved with one of the failed reconstruction efforts at the Providence Masonic Temple. Man, were his photos nice. JL, if you find yourself coming through town, do let us know.

218 - I'd say Ohio City, myself, but yeah.

Cleveland also books good rep films through the Cleveland Institute of Art -- better than DC, worse than Berkeley/SF (although given that the UC and Fine Arts have closed since I lived there and the PFA's booking quality has apparently declined, this may no longer actually be true).

(That might have been evident.) Let's gang up and make Snark write another blog post!

Wait, the O closed? I know they shut down the one that was in the student center at CMU, but did they shut down the one in Oakland, too? What the hell...

Coventry just obtained a boutique clothing shop

I'm glad it obtained something, because there were like half a dozen empty storefronts when I left. Especially as you went down toward Mayfield. That inexorable, grinding migration of business toward the suburbs was really frustrating to watch, since there is so much great architecture and urban planning in the inner ring suburbs. There are some very pretty streets right around Coventry.

Yes, isn't it tragic? I definitely had not yet eaten my lifetime allotment of O fries. (Though given the generosity of their servings, it's possible that actually, I did.)

The empty storefronts have in fact, surprisingly to me, been filling up lately. We'll see how it goes, I guess.

That is tragic. I have fond memories of going around at swimmer parties on Saturday night and making all the freshmen give us their ID cards so we could go to the O and order fries with the remaining money on their meal plans for that week, money that would otherwise disappear.

The $3 pizzas, on the other hand, were just disgusting.

God, do I miss the CIA movie series! One of the great things about Cleveland. That's got to be one of the best repretory movie series anywhere in the country. So hard to replace when you move. Not only do they change movies almost every night, but the programming is terrific. What a great mix of classic and cutting edge stuff.

Yeah, I was sort of putting Tremont and Ohio City together in my head. My ex GF (she's great, we're still good friends -- teaches at Oberlin) lives in Ohio City. That area would be so much better if they could get a handle on the crime. It was so dangerous to walk around there at night that we had to get taxis back from Indians games. So much for strolling those beautiful bridges at night.

I'm seeing references to it from this year on Chowhound, so maybe the owner changed his mind (or found a buyer).

Marcus, where do you plan on moving to in DC? We were living in Takoma Park/Silver Spring before we moved thisaway.

Yeah, the Cinematheque is shockingly great. We're probably going to go see Killer of Sheep at the CIA tomorrow. I'm much happier with the rep theater options here than I was in DC, even after the Silver Theater opened.

Marcus, Snark, Shrub: I will have moved to West Cleveland by Aug. 15. Please keep me in mind for any meet ups.

Excellent news! I have been thinking of you and meet-ups for a while now.

I'm trying to decide. I'll be working on Capitol Hill, so part of me wants to live in walking distance from work. But Capitol Hill rents have gone through the roof...I was also think upper Connecticut Ave / Van Ness, near Rock Creek Park, and taking the red line down.

There are definitely some more reasonably priced places out past H street and near Catholic U., but I know those areas used to be like incredibly dangerous...dunno if gentrification has made them safe?

Any suggestions for hidden gem neighborhoods? How was Takoma Park?

I might come through Cleveland on my way moving cross-country (prob'ly in early to mid August), I'll look you guys up if I do.

I personally would not want to live in Capitol Hill -- it just feels sort of blah to me -- but walking to work is awfully nice. Is that area around the Van Ness station affordable?

We have a friend who lives pretty near Catholic, and I never feel specially unsafe in her neighborhood (maybe a little right by the Rhode Island metro station, which is her nearest station), but I don't think there are many rentals right around there. The vibe I got from that neighborhood was that it probably had a fair number of domestic disputes but not many muggings, if that communicates anything.

I liked Takoma Park, though it really is not in the city -- just conveniently located to it. We lived in the part that was not near the metro station, which was less convenient but also less full of smug well-off people. If money were not an object, I would probably live in Logan Circle, because I am lame. There are some GORGEOUS streets near Howard, but I suppose they are probably expensive due to being near Howard and being part of the U Street corridor gentrification expensiveness.

Sorry, I'm afraid that isn't much of a hidden gem answer.

Yeah, thanks though, the tip about the CU area not necessarily being so bad was actually pretty helpful.

Gotta run now, but I'll definitely drop you a line through snarkout's blog if / when I have a firm date for a Cleveland visit...that would be a blast.

Frowner, based only on what I know of you through comments here, obvs, I think you might really like Portland. In addition to the career-culture advantage Emerson pointed out in 177, it's a comfortable city that has already attracted many Minneapolitans. It's a lesser city than Seattle in pretty much every regard; on the plus side, it's a bit cheaper, there's a bit less traffic, you could likely live a bit closer to downtown, and the weather's even a bit better. Plus, not all the co-ops are yuppified, and the best yuppie supermarkets are locally owned. Unfogged meetups here are also very uncrowded.

240: dude, you're convincing somebody to move to Portland? I'm telling your fellow citizens.

241: Californians are still not welcome.

A) totally not a Californian. See above.

B) I don't even do heroin, why would I move to Portland?

Cheap housing keeps me in Utah for now, but the Portland/Salem area is at the top of my list if I move.

The Brady Campaign gives them a C- on their gun laws. Sweet.

Sifu, a limited number of invitations can be issued every year to fill vacancies left by departed heroin addicts. No Californians need apply, of course.

gswift, as soon as you get here I'll introduce you to my liberal gun-loving pals. I'll even borrow a gun, and we can all go bag an elk.

and we can all go bag an elk.

Here, piggy piggy piggy.

"There is no set season, no bag limit and no weapon restriction." So awesome.

Here, piggy....

Regarding snow in the Pacific Northwest, you just go uphill and you have lots of it 7 or 8 months of the year. From Portland you're an hour or two from the desert, the ocean, and the mountains.

247: And just when my winemaking partners and I are getting into charcuterie. I sense a hunting trip on the horizon -- let me know when you're free.

Feral pigs are one of the few remaining sources of trichinosis in the US, the other two being wild bears and free-range domestic pigs.

All this means is, no rare feral pork. But rare store-bought pork is fine.

Chicago always struck me as cool too. Brutal winters, but great architecture, beautiful lakefront, several of the world's great universities

"Several"? I mean, the University of Chicago is there, but what would these other world-class universities be?

All this means is, no rare feral pork.

Oh, c'mon, John. Live a little.

Personally, I like my feral pork extra rare. But now I'll have to rethink things a little....ARGHH, THINKING...it HURTS!!!

Trichinosis is seldom fatal and is often asymptomatic. Probably the mullahs and rabbis got together to impose this prohibition of God's people.

rfst, snarkout, marcus: y'all caught the 30 Rock episode 'Cleveland'?

Alec Baldwin: "'For God's sakes, Lemon, we'd all like to flee to the Cleve, and club hop down at the flats, and have lunch with Little Richard, but we fight those urges, because we have responsibilities."

252: Northwestern is very good. Art Institute.

The Art Institute isn't a university and Northwestern isn't in Chicago.

(plus it sux)

It's in "Chicagoland". And I didn't think U of Chicago students stooped to belittle it.

Grammar pedantry is much more attractive than geographical pedantry. You can swim to it from Chicago, for god's sake. Easily.

249: You forgot rain forest out 6 or 26. Everything man-made out there is sooo rusty.

Sniff. I miss it. I hate LA.

I loved the Cleveland episode of 30 Rock.

"Are you a model?"

Another Angeleno, however reluctant. What's the L.A. count? I count Domineditrix, Moira, Bitch, TJ, formerly/occasionally Sifu. Who am I missing? Five seems shy of meetup critical mass.

A. I got a Facebook page in connection with a case. Under a pseudonym. Just today, I got my very first friend invitation, obviously kind of disturbing, since it's someone I know and like IRL (and online) but under what I'd hoped was a more transparent identity.

B. I go to Cleveland now and again, for cases. Always enjoy it, but I tend to view I-90 as defining the southern limit of acceptable weather anyway. I may be out in September, depending.

C. I lived in NE DC, a couple of blocks from CUA, when I went there. Heard gunshots every now and then, and plenty of stories about how I shouldn't be in this, that or the other area. The grocery stores had poor selection at higher prices. Maybe that's changed, but I doubt it.

D. I was thinking the other day about how strident some folks were when talking about the trade-offs of political freedom vs. other values wrt a Certain City State, and yet eyes barely bat at the thought of living in DC. Sure it's different, but just look at the medical marijuana thing.

I think Tasseled Loafer Leech?

Another Angeleno, however reluctant. What's the L.A. count?

Also "formerly". We're down there at least once a year at my parents house, typically during spring break.

Well, gswift, show us yer tits!

I keep on suggesting an LA meetup, but I don't suppose there are enough of us. Megan gets down here a fair bit. If it were timed correctly, perhaps she could be co-opted.

Also, my wife reads often enough, but doesn't (to my knowledge comment). She'd go.

252, 257: Also Illinois Institute of Technology used to be a great architecture school. I am completely unaware if this is still the case.

This thread has got me thinking about when I might want to move cities. For all the San Francisco and NYC folks, what would I be looking at for rents on a nice one-bedroom located conveniently closoe to the major financial area (or probably midtown in the case of Manhattan)? I know the answer will be frightening, but I really should get a good grasp on what salary I would need to entice me from my current cozy nook.

So, let us all know when you're down here, gswift, and we'll use it as an excuse to have a meetup.

We've had a couple already: one was me and DE and a lurker and dear god, I'm so sorry but I forget who else, and the other was a bunch of us when LeBlanc and w-lfs-n happened to be in the area.

Damn you, B! When were these meetups?

263: count me as LA for these purposes. SEK is also socal.

Right, I forgot about That Guy ™

268: SF, maybe $1200-$1500, depending on what you mean by "nice" and "conveniently close to the major financial area".

268: just browsing craigslist, check out this beauty for the low low rent of $2000/mo. Appears to be about 400 sq. ft., but what the hey, right?

270: Not that long ago. You newbies or occasional readers need to get with the program.

Anyway, the obvious problem with an LA meetup is that everyone is going to have to drive for at least a fucking hour in heinous traffic to converge on a central point. At least in NY and SF there's public transit. But yes. We should do it again sometime.

Anyway, the obvious problem with an LA meetup is that everyone is going to have to drive for at least a fucking hour in heinous traffic to converge on a central point go anywhere ever.

It was in November? Long enough!

It isn't LA if you don't have to drive, peoples.

273: I'm currently less than a mile north of the main business district of Chicago, so my total commute to work including elevator, walking, waiting, taking bus/train and more walking, is only 20-30 minutes even on bad traffic days. I don't want to deal with anything worse than that.

By nice, I mostly mean that 274 depressed me because I can't imagine 2 grand a month going out the door for somewhere with such a mediocre little kitchen and prefab plastic bathroom. All the fixtures look like Home Depot's bottom-of-the-line.

Bleh. It's mostly that I know I'll be taking a jump down in living style when I move, and a big jump up in price (with the possible exception of moving to Sydney, but I doubt that will happen). I just need to start finding out how big those jumps will actually be in order to prepare myself.

277: Not really, actually. When I stayed with my sis in Santa Monica I got around really well using the bus and my feet. Obviously, there are a *lot* of destinations that'll stick you in evil traffic, but it's at least *possible* to manage most of the day-to-day stuff while avoiding it, if you're careful.

And where I live (not really LA), same thing. There's not too much that's terribly exciting within less than half an hour, but most of my errands I really can run without a car. I don't, b/c I'm a lazy ass, but.

279: If you can't stand to live anywhere but Chicago, SF, or NYC then you'll take a big jump down, yep.

280: where I am, I don't have to drive at all to get to 90% of the places I need to go, and yeah, there are many places in LA where you can get to the essentials without driving, or without driving in traffic, but if you intend to have a social life (or job) in LA? Gotta drive. Lots. In terrible traffic.

281: It's not like Portland or Vancouver have great investment industries. I'm looking to apply for jobs at top mutual funds, and perhaps some more relaxed hedge funds. Those don't really exist outside of SF, NYC and Chicago (and Boston to a lesser extent).

There are a couple other scattered fund companies I would otherwise like, but the cities aren't ones I would consider. Denver's a possibility, but Memphis, Newport Beach or Houston? Blech.

282: True.
283: T Rowe Price is in Baltimore. And Denver's nice.

Denver can be nice. The mountains are spectacular, and the cost of living difference is a bonus. It's pretty well sprawled out, though, so even if you minimize your commute you'll be driving places for anything else.

283: Memphis is supposed to be really cool, actually, with a great music scene. Newport Beach is ritzy, but c'mon, it's still the California coastline, and it's a short drive from much natural beauty and excitement. Neither of those places is an uninhabitable, fetid swamp rendered (if barely) into vaguely urban form via the exigencies of vigorous paving and ubiquitous, wheezingly overstressed central air.

Baltimore is a neat town, for all its problems. Gotta love hitting crabs with hammers.

Sifu, have you walked the earth, or what?

He's walked the earth, met people, had adventures...

T-Dot is Canada's hub of the investment industry, I think. It's no Vancouver but pretty pleasant. Sort of a lite version of the American eastern seaboard.

Comes with the Sifu gig. Nobody takes you seriously as head of a ninja army if you haven't wandered from village (Newport Beach) to village (Houston, Scottsdale), outsmarting warlords and befriending mischief-making monkeys and whatnot.

befriending mischief-making monkeys

Racist.

Denver's a possibility, but Memphis, Newport Beach or Houston? Blech.

Fuck a bunch of Houston, but Newport Beach has good waves, lots of hot women in swimsuits, Balboa Island...

I've actually never been to Houston. Hard to imagine why I would ever go.

Memphis is a lot of fun, from what I could tell of my one long weekend there.

I may be in Chicagoland around Christmastime, though this is late in the thread to notate such information; moreover, we've shunned all the bonobo members of the family, but the manqué members remained.

remained

There are some fairly nice parts of Houston, but it's really not the sort of place an urban-oriented person would enjoy much (despite its size).

I'm on Facebook, under my non-backwardmasked name. I don't think I've ever made a friend request, though. Other people seem much more profligate with them than me. Also, since my profile is part of the university network, no dodgy/incriminating material so I wouldn't be embarrassed if my boss, for example, looked at my profile. That doesn't seem to stop others, though.

There are some fairly nice parts of Houston

But that weather, ye gods.

284: T. Rowe Price is a very big mutual fund company, not a particularly good one. Still, I could possibly see living in Baltimore, and the music scene there is pretty good at the moment by my tastes.

286, 292: I think SoCal and I just have irreconcilable differences. The few times I've been in Orange County, I've felt mild to moderate existential despair until I could leave and return to my fetid swamp made habitable (with beach adjacent!). Plus, the major problem with most other cities is that I do not even have a drivers license, and I'll probably be a very uncomfortable mediocre driver even after I do learn. I'd hate to be somewhere where I can't rely on mass transit.

Still, I will admit that Denver puts up a good fight. And I'd consider Toronto if I knew of any good funds that were domiciled there (generally investment is done only within national borders for tax and regulation purposes, so really big funds in North America are pretty much all going to be in the US, or in Bermuda for offshoring purposes).

Y'all should move to Glasgow. Great music scene, great architecture, loads of museums and galleries. Don't let little things like near constant rain and the 3000 miles of ocean stop you.

Also, Glasgow is a major showcase for the "creative cities" concept, which is not as dorky as it sounds.

(generally investment is done only within national borders for tax and regulation purposes, so really big funds in North America are pretty much all going to be in the US, or in Bermuda for offshoring purposes)

And Bermuda is not an option why?

299: Yeah, it's brutal.

Plus, the major problem with most other cities is that I do not even have a drivers license, and I'll probably be a very uncomfortable mediocre driver even after I do learn.

Whatever you do, stay the hell away from Houston.

So... why not Bermuda?

298: Would you like to join the Unfogged group?

Presumably, that's why we call him Sifu. 303 > 305.

301: Actually, one of my good friends from college moved up there to pursue his career in stand-up comedy. Amazing guy to go drinking with. You've now got me looking him up again.

Anyway, thanks for the answers so far, everyone. I hope to catch some of the NYer crew in the morning when I wake up, since that is the most likely place for me to end up.

And maybe ogged can feel useful for knowing about San Francisco's financial area apartments. I don't even know where the financial district is there, so I really need some help on that city.

I'd be interested in moving abroad if I had any idea of what I'd do in whichever place.

re: 298

Yes, sure. Does it stay sekrit? Or appear on my public profile, btw?

Totally sekrit. Only other members of the group can see it.

SF financial district, approximately.

I'm starting to wonder if teo works for Facebook.

re: 311

Ah, then cool. Definitely. I appear on facebook under Firstname Surname where the firstname is the non-contracted form of the name.

ttaM: I sent you a friend request. Once you confirm it I'll invite you to the group.

313: Quiet, you.

re: 315
Done

313: girls on facebook are really shallow; they only care about the size of your group.

Seattle doesn't get as hot

After Wednesday, this is a goddamn lie. Jesus Christ, there's a FUCKING REASON I left St. Louis behind at the first instant I could. Just let me die.

303-305, 312: See, this is why I love this place. Nigh omniscient insomniacs are super people. Now I seriously have got to get to bed. I have to finish some homework and sell my extra ticket to the Slint/GZA/Sonic Youth show tomorrow morning while pretending to work, so I can slack off and leave for that show in the afternoon.

Vive le weekend!

318: We're up to 17!

re: 321

Yes, and you've gone transatlantic.

321, 322: Have the girls come calling yet?

my group got length like a undersea cable/tickle you all the time cuz my haggis is able

Tickling haggis is illegal in some states.

Today the Atlantic, tomorrow, the Channel!

re: 324

Heh, reminded me of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_GnG1wO38

sell my extra ticket to the Slint/GZA/Sonic Youth show

Fuck you.

San Francisco is not a big city; if you live closeish to a BART or Muni Metro station, half an hour from the Financial District will get you to most of the Mission and a lot of places closer than that.

When I worked in SoMA, pretty close to the financial district, I lived pretty far out in the sticks of the city and would go door-to-door by motorcyle in 20 minutes. Parking was either free if I walked three blocks, or the ten-cents-an-hour meter. If you're not into motocycles, it seems like everyone has a scooter. Something to consider.

OT: Fire Joe Morgan is so goddamn funny.

323: It's only a matter of time.

330: OT s/b banned.

I don't want to oversell this group; it's not very exciting. You do get to learn my real name if you join, though.

RE: 333

Learning that is worth joining! It's a good name.

Teo everybody figured out the anagram months ago.

What kind of name is Ifol Eto, anyhow? Yoruba?

334: Thanks.

335: Twi.

Twee.

That too.

I would love to move to Glasgow. Are there any pharmaceutical or medical research centers there?

re: 339

Well, there are three universities in the city and another four within 45 minutes travel. And there are definitely pharmaceutical companies in the area, too.

Does no one here actually live in Pittsburgh? Not even a lurker? The O in Oakland has not closed down. I bought a 6-pack of Cleveland's finest beer there on Monday.

The Five Guys that moved in next door (in the former location of the KFTaco Hut) has definitely stolen their thunder in the "huge paper bag filled with fries" market, though. Fewer undergraduate customers (although still a bunch...cheap huge pizzas), more poor people.

Pittsburgh has 3 arthouse theaters. One mostly shows things that are of interest to other filmmakers, not narrative for-profit films.

http://www.pghfilmmakers.org/

Plus we have started having a great Asian film festival in addition to the Three Rivers Film Festival.

Surprisingly the Pittsburgh Filmmakers heavily promotes the Cleveland Film Festival every February and March. I must admit that the Cleveland Film Festival is a lot bigger than the Three Rivers Film Festival.

333: I'll bite. I'm on there as michael at metalab dot unc dot edu. Is that what you need?

re: 339

Further to that, some Scottish 'we are great at all things medical and research-y' propaganda:

http://www.talentscotland.com/view_item.aspx?item_id=56138

330: Fire Joe Morgan is the best baseball writing on the web today. There. I said it.

I already know your real name, teofilo. You were too hasty about revealing that you were heavily involved with a particular field of study at a particular university and that you come from a particular city.

(although the decisive webpage is only to be found in Google's cache)

Actually I can't figure out where the decisive website is anymore, or what I searched to find it. You may be safe.

I left the computer last night and never got back, so now offer comments few will be interested in or read. So:

snarkout and rfs, why the boycott of the CMA? As you've probably seen from the photographs at AiR, they've finally succeeded in redeveloping the Masonic Temple. Hotels, hotels, hotels--it boggles my mind that anyone thinks Providence needs more hotels.

I'll let you know if I'm ever going to make it to Cleveland, but it's unlikely to happen. I try not to travel outside New England if I can help it.

(The Art Institute is, at the very least, a college--or rather, The School of the Art Institute is. They don't do doctorates but offer a variety of masters degrees for various arts-related fields.)

I would like to join the sekrit Unfogged group too! Teo, you already know my real name, if you want to invite me.

We aren't actually boycotting the CMA, we just never happen to go.

I am glad to hear the O didn't close. Surely the Five Guys fries can't be nearly as good!

208: mind, I'd like to visit Cleveland. I think a long weekend would satisfy. That I think I might prefer it to Chicago doesn't mean that I really want to live there.

I think Cleveland is much better for living in than for visiting, actually.

Is that what you need?

No, I will need some sort of name to search under. E-mail and we'll work something out.

346: I'm not really that zealous about guarding my identity (obviously). You're not the only person who figured it out.

Put a letter in the mailbox with a handwritten note in feminine handwriting, and an ultrasound. Mention something about a paternity test (for bonus points, the DNA came from an ice cube somehow), catholic upbringing, child support, and upcoming court date. Not sure that'd even be illegal!

Not illegal in a statutory sense, but pretty much the textbook definition of the common law tort of Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress.

353, just letting people know the true value of your name as a commodity. For more informed market actors, you know.

I just sent you a message.

Po-Mo Polymath, you can do a LOT better than 2000/mo for a one bedroom in Midtown. Depending on where you'd work, Brooklyn or Queens might be closer (via subway), and prices are certainly lower. For example, I'm five minutes from Grand Central, in a not nicely renovated 3-bedroom with huge bath for 1600/mo. (total rent).

Escape the rat race. $7000 buys a 2 bedroom hours on a 100-foot-square lot. Convenient to either Grand Forks of Fargo.

"house" "or"

"Reason" magazine has figured out my North Dakota joke:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/36485.html

357: But is there glass in the windows? I'm not even going to ask about electricity or plumbing.

It doesn't look like an abandoned house to me -- it's not even shabby. It's sort of small, bu so is the $2000/mo. NYC apartment.

357: The real genius is in fitting a 768 square foot house on a 100 square foot lot.

My ex g/friend bought her flat in Glasgow for 20,000 UKP not that long ago, I though that was cheap. $7000 US is extraordinary.

362: it's 10 stories tall.

But this isn't in Glasgow. If someone offered you a little patch of land in the middle of absolutely nowhere western usa for $7000, would you make the deal?

No!

[And to put it in context, her £20,000 flat in glasgow was about 20% of the cost of the same sized flat in a nicer part of the city]

100 feet square is 10,000 square feet.

This is not the middle of nowhere, see. It's halfway between Grand Forks and Fargo.

I need to grab a picture of this one bridgehouse sometime. I believe it's in the Loop, right across the street from the Lyric Opera. It's about three stories tall (judging by height and window spacing) and is mostly suspended in open space over the river, wedged between the bridge and the adjacent major building.

It's the urban holy grail: 600-800 square feet on a zero square foot plot.

flat in glasgow was about 20% of the cost of the same sized flat in a nicer part of the city

Really?? How does that happen?

re: 369

Glasgow has highly gentrified areas with beautiful Victorian sandstone buildings set among leafy green parks, nice bars and independent record shops. It also has other areas that are about as bad as anywhere in Europe gets for deprivation. The price differential between these areas is huge. Her flat was a nice enough flat (Victorian tenement, etc) but it was in a shitty area south of the river. She also bought it at a moment when the property market in that particular area was quite depressed.

Ok, that makes sense.

re: 369

I just checked prices on similar sized flats in the same street and for a similar property in a nicer part of the city. 35,000 versus 140,000. Almost identical buildings too. Location, etc.

Admittedly, the area with the cheaper flats isn't anywhere near as bad as Glasgow gets. Just, not nice.

The area of Glasgow with the really cheap real estate is locally called "North Dakota". A hellhole of sagebrush, Christians, and boredom.

I went on an outing with the Flickr Boston Photo Mob yesterday. Half of the people worked for a PR agency, in its Social Networks Group. Seemed sinister to me. They were heavily into Twitter.

The Cleveland Museum of Art should be boycotted, or something, because the bastards shut the entire place down for something like 7 years (from 2005-2011) in order to satisfy their vanity by building a massive new modernist expansion to the building. The wonderful permanent collection is inaccessible, the museum is effectively closed (recent immigrants to the city like redfoxtail don't seem to fully realize what they're missing). There are occasional piddly little "special exhibitions", which charge admission prices to see a few pieces in the tiny corner of the building that's still help open, but that's about it. Granted they needed to do some new building, but some other way could have been found. It's a terrible joke on the public to take our contribution money and use it to fund a project that shuts the place down.

Also, anyone visiting Cleveland should definitely stay in this hotel:

http://thealcazar.com/

Unfortunately, the site doesn't have many photos, but it's great.

This concludes my Cleveland-related postings.

P.S. well, OK, I see that some of the galleries will be reopening around 2009, which makes it just slightly better, but still.

I promise to buy the frst round of drinks at the proverbial LA area meetup

Hey, that explains why I've recently been seeing really nice pieces from Cleveland out on loan!

Cleveland's been sending loan shows from their collection everywhere. In addition to the exhibition at the Frick, I'm pretty sure they sent a "masterworks" grab bag to China. I bet that was fun.

I can't evaluate whether the partial or temporary closing of the museum was worthwhile or not, not being close enough to the situation. It's something that sometimes has to be done, though, especially since it seems that their old main building needed significant renovation. And from what I can tell, the entire museum was only closed for a brief while, if at all--part of their explanation for why the project's taking so long is because they kept some of the place open.

The Currier in NH is closed for expansion right now, as is the Davis Museum at Wellsley. Detroit closed, or came very close to it, a few years ago when they were doing renovations, and while RISD never completely closed, they had pretty sparse offerings for several years in the '90's when they renovated. And of course, the Boston ICA completely closed and changed locations. It happens. Often the only way you can get funding to do essential innovations to unsexy-but-critical things like storage is if you also do some building that people want to fork over money to see happen. But yeah, I'd hate that it wasn't fully open if I lived there, too.

I saw the Cleveland Museum before it closed. It was really quite impressive.

Yeah, I'm probably whining a bit much. Wouldn't be the first time. But this statement --

the entire museum was only closed for a brief while, if at all

is sort of a cheap excuse they're making. I mean, they have only a tiny sliver of the museum open, and there's just about nothing there except the occasional traveling exhibition. Usually quite a small one because the space is so limited. I saw it before I left, and was back last month and saw it again.

Well, I'm basically just an apologist here. But it seems to me a "damn if you do . . " sort of situation. I'd have opted for closing them place entirely and getting it all done faster, myself, but that doesn't win you any friends either. Schools complain, maybe city officials, your development staff worries about losing touch with the public, hell, your entire staff hates it. So an inadequate solution is found that everybody hates almost as much.

The CMA's cast of Rodin's Thinker is fascinating and unique.

Jesus, did you ever go to the Maryhill Rodin exhibit? It was on my list for 10-20 years. Never went.

Still haven't, and it's on the way to the vineyard where we get our grapes -- as in, we pass right by it. I really should stop next time; for a smallish, remote museum, it's got an impressive collection. Plus the Stonehenge replica, of course.

John, that's nice to know about. I'd not known about the museum. I've been wanting to get up to see the Goldendale area; now I have yet another reason.

Roamsedge!

Yep, me. Insane making busy of late, but subsiding.

JL, we're past the point where anyone is reading, but I'm not much of a museum-going type (I think the last time I went to a museum in the U.S. was to see a Dan Flavin exhibit in 2003). I think the CMA has a street photography exhibition going on now that I'd like to see, but most of the exhibitions they've been doing didn't sound particularly interesting to me. (I confess to being generally uninterested, with a few exceptions, in twentieth c. painting.) I'm looking forward to them showing Queen Christina and my favorite James Wong Howe movie in August, though. Knowing that most of their permanent collection is boxed up or on loan helps explain my disinterest a little, in fact.

The thing with the old CMA is that most of the day there was like, nobody there, and there were entire rooms full of Picassos and Van Goghs, ancient Greek statuary, etc. that you would have all to yourself. Wandering in from Case in the middle of the day was like owning a great art collection personally. Then it was taken away. Hence my bitterness. Of course, I've moved now, so I would have lost it anyway.