Quite an article linked there. Those are some striking last words from Tillman in the final paragraph.

I think you're entitled to use some tough words when you're in combat. That kind of talk doesn't seem to be a reason why his own men would deliberately kill him.

Those words were spoken to the guy right next to him, not to the people who were shooting at them, right?

I really have difficulty imagining this as a fragging incident, but the beauty of the relentless coverups being perpetrated by the Army and the DoD is that now I kind of assume that something awful happened. And it's a shame that that's how I get to think of Pat Tillman now, because everything I read about him makes him sound like an incredibly decent human being and good soldier.

everything I read about him makes him sound like an incredibly decent human being and good soldier.

Ted Rall thinks he was a bloodthirsty, racist idiot.

Wikipedia says he had arranged to meet with Chomsky after his tour in Afghanistan.

3: Yeah, and the guy he was saying them to was the freaking chaplain, right?

So, Tillman was possibly both the only militant atheist in NFL history AND the only militant atheist in foxhole history?

And Ted Rall is a gasbag (who, to be more fair than he deserves, withdrew his comments when someone pointed out that Tillman had asked to be assigned to Afghanistan). What's your point?

the guy he was saying them to was the freaking chaplain, right?

I don't think so. I think it was the chaplain who got the account from the soldier Tillman said it to.

7: No, the chaplain was reporting what someone else had said Tillman had said to him, I believe.

The last 14 posts have been by either Becks or Ogged. Where is everyone?

I am waiting for Lizardbreath to be indignant about Alberto Gonzales!

The evidence from the testimonies is consistent with a scenario where Tillman's unit is under fire from friendlies who don't know who they are, and who shoot Tillman while he is cussing out his men for being antsy while in this crazy situation.

The main evidence for the fragging hypothesis is that many people investigating the incident, including Tillman's own mom, thinks he was deliberately killed by his own men.

This would make a good article for a critical thinking class, with the iterate, "he said that he said that..." testimony and all.

Tillman's unit is under fire from friendlies who don't know who they are

Except that, if I remember correctly, there was just one unit, of which Tillman was a part, and which had split up, with Tillman and one or two others going ahead to do reconnaissance. This doesn't rule out your scenario, of course.

The main evidence for the fragging hypothesis is that many people investigating the incident, including Tillman's own mom, thinks he was deliberately killed by his own men.

Well, except apparently there's no physical evidence that anyone was shooting at them: "No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck." So WTF?

For helpy-chalk's whitewash scenario, you'd have the unit splitting up, Tillman et al going ahead, and the ones left behind spotting them later and shooting them in ignorance. Not impossible, but not, perhaps, the first explanation that would come to mind.

Oh, I see -- it was a bomb that went off that started the firefight; I thought that the group to which Tillman wasn't attached fired on Tillman after coming under enemy fire (the radios weren't working properly due to a ravine, IIRC), but if something detonated to start it, that makes more sense.

14: No enemy fire =! no fire from units who don't know who they are shooting at.

15: Do we know that the friendlies who shot Tillman were in his unit?

I'd reread the article to check, but I going to bed instead. I'll reply again when my kids wake me up at 2:00 AM EST.

Yeah, the Post story after the original coverup fell apart had them splitting into two parties when a Humvee broke down; Tillman's group proceeded and the other group flagged down a tow truck and was meant to rejoin them.

"So now maybe Pat Tillman was deliberately killed by his comrades."
So maybe he was deliberately killed by somebody else.
Why jump to conclusions?
There are so many lies out there.

The whole thing encapsulates the war so well. By which I mean, it stinks. Supposedly he was becoming disillusioned with the war in the days leading up to his death.

This Sports Illustrated article I remember as being both a very moving article delving into Pat Tillman's character and a good narrative on what seems to have happened based on the various accounts and reports. Distills all the information and gives the most probably account. I'll have to re-read it and see how it meshes with the latest accounts.

Of course I emerge from my lurking to make my first comment and I both have a typo and seem to have an unnatural affinity for the word "account."

Anyway, summary of 21: Really good article, also relevant.

LizardBreath (and anyone else with handle sensitivity and/or posting privileges and/or an opinion)

Off topic, but since a lurker introduced himself above, I had a question: is my handle too nondescript?

23: Yes, but if you get some hott bangs we'll be more likely to sexremember you.

Any initial-based handle is too nondescript, I think. Unless there are 4 or more initials.

Too right, Neddy.

Hair's too short for bangs. Unless I go completely New New Wave. And that ain't happening.

Supposedly he was becoming disillusioned with the war in the days leading up to his death.

And on the day of? More than a little disinclined toward the whole affair. His last words reportedly were, "I need this (expletive) war like I need anoth..."

Digby had a post about this a long time ago, suggesting that in those halcyon days of Bush's 81% approval they just wasted Tillman. She might be onto something. Also, I hear she has an incredibly pert bottom.

Much as I hate to drag the thread back to the original post, the point of the linked article was the testimony of the medical examiners, one of whom said that 'The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described.' Analysis of gunshot wounds is a pretty exact science -- at least as much for military docs, I would think, as for their civilian counterparts -- and ten yards is very close range. People can speculate all they want about what happened, but especially given the cover-up, it's essential to investigate evidence that doesn't square up with the scenario as described.

Okay, so I didn't have to drag the thread back after all.

Maybe they killed him, maybe they didn't. Is there really any way to find out? In the absence of any credible evidence, the existence of which has been so carefully prevented, can one say either way? The doctor sounds halfway credible, but his word alone can't really establish murder, only place Tillman in a superimposed state of whacked/not-whacked.

Is there really any way to find out?

Forensic pathology is made of evidence, and sometimes it does find out. When my mom testified as an expert witness in murder cases, she would sometimes present post-mortem findings as "the last testament" of the deceased.

Is there really any way to find out?

I think at the very least there is no reason not to try to find out. It's tragic either way; as awful as it would be, it's worth trying to find out the truth even if it makes it a worse tragedy. Even if we can't figure it out now, preserved evidence and recorded findings might allow the future to figure it out without us.

Isn't the gentleman in question dead and buried?

Indeed he is, but there was at least some examination performed. On Countdown tonight they were talking about closeness of bullets to one another, etc.

OK, I'm really glad someone is working on this but I'm equally done paying attention to it for today.

And the White House is asserting executive privilege over their documents with respect to this incident. Huh...

I hope my very last word isn't "sniveling."

Better your last word were "sniveling" than that it be sniveling.

11: I tried to get something going about that, but LB's response was:

Who needs to weasel if the DOJ won't enforce contempt of Congress. So he lied -- whaddaya going to do about it?

Although there's all sorts of stuff happening on that front that I'm waiting a couple of days to figure out.

So there you go.

When my mom testified as an expert witness in murder cases

CSI Unfogged! Your Mom is a forensic pathologist? TELL US STORIES.

21: Oh, man is that article sad.

I fully intend to snivel as I die. I mean, you're not allowed to snivel for your entire life; surely if someone's shooting at you/you're dying, you might as well indulge.

After all, it's not like you're going to have to face anyone afterwards.

I glanced at a forensic pathology text once. I checked the erotic asphyxiation section, and they all did have what Wm. Burroughs calls a "shit-eating grin" on their faces.