You were there, of course, but from the description alone I would think the motivation was something like, "Am I cut too? Do I look ok? Yes?"
I'm suggesting he guy next to him was part of the story.
Or maybe "This is so great, I look much better than I did last year." If he's comparing himself to his own baseline, the superhero next to him isn't relevant.
"Am I cut too? Do I look ok? Yes?"
You'll have to trust me that the look on his face was pure self-love.
I don't think it's just American guys, but I've certainly seen that and various close cousins before. Some people find it oddly charming, I think. That's basically Will Farrell's schtick.
I know that guy. He was a quadruple amputee, and then through sheer force of will he grew his arms and legs back. It's a very inspiring story, and your shallow response sickens me.
He was a quadruple amputee, and then through sheer force of will he grew his arms and legs back.
The part that warmed my heart was his fundraising effort for blind albino orphans. "Each inch I grow, I'll donate $10,000 for these souls more deserving than I." What a champ.
I modeled for an artist for the first time last night. (Yes, nude.) Upon looking at the not-yet-completed drawing, I thought, "Damn, I look pretty good."
Am I vain? I suppose so, but I can accept that.
Am I vain? I suppose so, but I can accept that.
Big of you.
zadfrack is going to be crushed when the drawing is finished and there's a big "Note: Artist's conception" in the corner.
Artist: It's a boy!
Zadfrack: And what a boy!
Artist: Zadfrack, that's the umbilical cord.
I'm going to disagree with what Ogged seems to be implying. Sure, "posing" like that in a public place shows a deficiency in social awareness. In that, mockable.
But pride, even vanity, in one's own body is, in man or woman, a positive thing. It beats the hell out of its opposite. Among other things, it gives rise to that vaunted, elusive "confidence."
We have to watch the excesses of every virtue, but I think of physical self-satisfaction as a good.
I think of physical self-satisfaction as a good
What you do in the privacy of your own home is none of our business, IDP.
Which of the two guys was you, Ogged?
... but I think of physical self-satisfaction as a good.
"I feel like I'm watching an episode of Heroes."
It is funny, however, when a man is posing with weights in front of the gym mirror and he has less weight than the woman next to him. N.B. don't pose with 15lb.
"I feel like I'm watching an episode of Heroes."
I'm not exactly an X-games guy, but I saw that last night. I have no idea how he walked away. I also saw the dude wipe out on the double backflip on the motorcycle. Those guys are amazing.
I have no idea how he walked away
Landing just right, I guess. Though landing just right from that height should earn you a black belt in judo right on the spot.
Yeah, and he hit a part of the ramp that still had a bit of an angle, which I think might have helped. A little. The slo-mo at the end is terrifying.
"I feel like I'm watching an episode of Heroes."
Holy shit, man.
The shoes thing is definitely kind of weird. I still don't understand why that happened.
19: Some of my proudest moments at the gym were along the lines of "Former Texas Governor Ann Richards used the lat pulldown machine before me. Now I get to add more than 100 lbs. of resistance and feel like a real man. [Sob.] I am a lost little boy. Will you help me?"
I still don't understand why that happened.
His heels hit the ground first.
Yeah, and he hit a part of the ramp that still had a bit of an angle, which I think might have helped. A little.
Also looks like he took part of the shock with his legs on impact.
I'm with Mr. Selflove on this one. Ogged's argument is the converse of the one neocon "feminists" use: Why are you so worried about Carhart etc... when there are women in Repressistan we could be liberating? Hypocrisy! Similarly, Mr. Selflove can be proud of his own damn body because he's the one responsible for maintaining it. Whatever Mr. Evenmorecut does with his body is his business.
The slo-mo at the end is terrifying.
Gross understatement.
OTOH, I wish I could make my shoes fly off like that when I plop down on the couch at the end of the day.
only an American male
Only in America would we think that the behavior of some guy at the gym tells us something about our national character.
re: the the vid in 18
He could be quite injured and still walking away.* Adrenalin does amazing things.
I was once present at the scene of a motorbike crash; a friend crashed into the back of a parked car doing about 50mph, and by sheer chance, a couple of us happened to be just round the corner when it happened. We saw him go past, and a minute or so later someone who'd seen the crash ran to get us, and we all ran to the scene.
He was standing up talking to us for a few minutes before the ambulance arrived. It later transpired he'd broken one of his legs in 6 places. He'd actually gone through the car -- in the rear window and out the front -- and had hit the car hard enough to have moved it several feet. Despite that, he was standing on both legs carrying out a conversation.
* although I presume the medics wouldn't have let him get up if they'd suspected broken bones.
He could be quite injured and still walking away.
Yeah, I've been looking at the news stories, expecting to read about a broken pelvis and some cracked ribs, but nothing yet...
although I presume the medics wouldn't have let him get up if they'd suspected broken bones
Thought the same thing. The first aid I learned emphasized non-movement until checked.
Then again, I walked off a 'cliff' (only about 15 - 20ft high, though) once while drunk and trying navigate home through a forest in total darkness.* I saw what I thought were some low ferns. Ah-hah, the path lies this way. Of course they weren't low ferns, they were the tops of pine trees. The first I knew of it was when I went into free-fall. Got up without a scratch.
* we used to drunkenly celebrate mid-summer in a hilltop ruined broch when we were in our teens. Specifically - http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/pls/portal/newcanmore.newcandig_p_coll_details?p_arcnumlink=450981
although it usually looks more like http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/435344
It seems to me that men exhibit irrational self-confidence* more than women, and that physical vanity is just one manifestation of this general phenomenon. Does anyone else have this sense?
*self-confidence greater than the facts justify.
once while drunk [...] I went into free-fall. Got up without a scratch.
Well, being drunk is famously the best way of surviving a fall - without a conscious effort to control your body, the impact energy dissipates along lines of least resistance, which include (relatively) flexy things like tendons and ligaments.
re: 37
Yeah. No pain, no bruising even.
Only in America would we think that the behavior of some guy at the gym tells us something about our national character.
Ogged's clearly just angling for a spot as an NYT columnist.
36: Or maybe, at least as far as looks go, it's rational self-confidence. After all, while it's nice to have earth-shattering personal beauty, earth-shattering personal beauty doesn't mean that you'll be much happier than anyone else, and lacking phenomenal good looks doesn't actually cause you to be miserable. Good relationships, a satisfying level of fitness, a fairly good amount of sex with people you find attractive--those things are attainable almost regardless of looks. (I was exceedingly startled to realize this, but I can testify, as a distinctly below-par-looking person, that it's true.) And in fact, the more you worry about the adequacy of your looks the less likely you are to wring any advantage from them--vid my two most beautiful female friends, the one dating a string of real assholes and the other almost unable to get a date with anyone she liked at all; not to mention my handsome, built male friend and his string of women-with-whom-he-had-nothing-in-common, culminating in the one who did not want him to pursue painting because it took up too much space.
self-confidence greater than the facts justify
As regarding people's sense of their own appearance, this is pernicious, holding people to standards usually unduly critical. Every reader of these threads appreciates the damage that treating women's appearance as if it could be evaluated objectively causes; nobody should be judged by such standards.
On preview, also what Frowner said.
I have no idea how he walked away
I saw that last night and first thing I said was "He's dead."
36--
yeah, i'll sign on to all of those sentiments, and go frowner.
but i'm thinking those thoughts are not the thoughts of the guy that ogged watched preening in front of the mirror.
flexing this tricep helps me to remember the importance of good relationships and the irrelevance of good looks.
40: I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage insofar as they are pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people. There are some great people in that group, but it still tends to be disproportionately filled with vain assholes -- i.e., people who have little going for them except good looks.
I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage
Just keep telling yourself that, Kotsko.
t still tends to be disproportionately filled with vain assholes -- i.e., people who have little going for them except good looks.
I'm not really sure that's true, it's a stereotype much like the one that good looking people are often dumb. Sure, some really really great looking people have probably been pandered to their entire lives, but in my experience the really good looking people I know (and I know a few) aren't really much more likely to be arseholes than anyone else.
I agree that there can be "higher rationality" in never doubting yourself. You see this a lot with doctors who make snap decisions and never waver. This can be a real, objective success factor. No one wants a vacillating surgeon. Similarly, you meet many entrepreneurs who are 100% confident that they will succeed. Objectively, this is crazy, but it helps them do what they do.
it's a stereotype much like the one that good looking people are often dumb
But surely this is one of the most useful stereotypes in existence? If a given person is really,really attractive, what are the odds that they're also really, really smart? I recognize the fallacy here, but this fallacy is all that stands between assuming beautiful people are dumb, and weeding out the smart ones and gutting them from crotch to sternum.
If a given person is really,really attractive, what are the odds that they're also really, really smart?
Actually, as has been remarked (on this site, somewhere, on some previous thread) quite a lot higher than pure chance. Ditto athletic ability, etc.
and gutting them from crotch to sternum.
This is more fearsome when you don't misread it as "from crotch to scrotum".
The feminist argument has gone too far when we start defending gym rats, people.
48: Probably a good place to note the difference between "it's good for them" and "it's good for the rest of us."
The feminist argument has gone too far when we start defending gym rats, people
We'll try to remember that when we start doing it.
I don't know why you people are going on and on about the fall in the video in 18 -- I was clearly only posting it because the kids waving their shirts at the very beginning provide a clear parallel to the self-regarding gym man. Start 'em young, that's what the X-games are all about.
Also, Ogged: I'm not exactly an X-games guy, but I saw that last night.
You mean, while you were just flipping through the channels, you 'happened' to settle on some skateboarding? And watched a few jumps, maybe? They are some of the best athletes in the world, or so I hear.
I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage insofar as they are pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people. There are some great people in that group, but it still tends to be disproportionately filled with vain assholes
Remarkably wealthy people are also at a disadvantage in that they are pretty much limited to living in neighborhoods with other remarkably wealthy people.
Remarkably intelligent people are also at a disadvantage in that they are pretty much limited to working with other remarkably intelligent people.
We are using a very curious definition of "disadvantage", aren't we?
I'd also dispute the 'pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people' claim. I know lots of couples where there's a fair sized disparity in 'looks' between the two people.
Start 'em young
Great, I don't get it.
57: Right. They tend to have the same dating options as anyone else, plus a whole lot of others. That they tend to choose from among those (attractive) others doesn't mean they're "limited", and it's hard to call it a "disadvantage."
Are you going through Kotsko's ouvre claim by claim, ttaM? Because we still need a compelling response to the claim that all of society's ills can be laid at the feet of Tim Burke. Harder to refute than I'd have thought.
49: I recognize the fallacy here, but this fallacy is all that stands between assuming beautiful people are dumb, and weeding out the smart ones and gutting them from crotch to sternum.
I've reread this numerous times, and I still can't figure out what it means, who is in danger of being gutted, and why.
Maybe the fact that I don't get it means I'm one of the dumb ones. Does that mean I should be wary of people with filet knives, or am I safe?
Actually, as has been remarked (on this site, somewhere, on some previous thread) quite a lot higher than pure chance. Ditto athletic ability, etc.
I suspect that part of this is that often what we think of as beauty is largely expensive grooming and being fit and so much of what measures intelligence (standardized test scores, universities) is influenced by income, too. So you have an expensively groomed person who's been educated and goes to the gym. Chances are, they'd have to work at it to be ugly.
Does that mean I should be wary of people with filet knives, or am I safe?
I think it means that you're great looking. Feel free to have copious amounts of sex or wear lycra.
59: It started on the veldt eons ago and now there are no poor or ugly people.
I do think that remarkably good-looking people are at a disadvantage insofar as they are pretty much limited to other remarkably good-looking people
Not limited in that regard, as others have noted.
They can, though, be limited in this regard: people they date may well fall for them rather more easily than they otherwise would.
Let me try that again: I have a young, very attractive female friend who finds herself repeatedly, desperately shouting out after a month or three of a relationship: Stop it! Why does everybody keep falling in love with me??
She's never had to try very hard for people to be taken with her; her relationship-building skills are therefore a little lacking. And she has trouble extricating herself if she'd like to, because her men tend to be willing to compromise endlessly rather than standing on their own two feet and risking (gasp) her leaving them.
And she leaves them rather easily because it's just never been hard at all for her to find someone else.
Ugh, ultimately. When her looks eventually fade, she'll find herself bewildered.
60: Tim Burke has finally decided to stop being reasonable now. Soon the Fontana Labs-SCMT axis of "come on, guys, let's not be so alarmist" will fall as well.
That's the thing about the blogosphere -- sooner or later, everyone comes around to agreeing with me. That's why my blog is called The Weblog.
The first I knew of it was when I went into free-fall. Got up without a scratch.
Once, while drunk, I fell down my front steps and landed face-down on the walkway. Got up without a scratch.
No, wait; got up with my face and arm cut and bruised and a fat lip, tasting blood and gravel. Now I remember.
You bastards. Every time I fall when drunk I somehow end up in the hospital with a concussion. I fell/jumped off a porch when drunk and pretty much broke my ass.
I think 65 is unfair to good-looking people. We *all* tend to be mostly limited to other people in our social class, and looks are one rough factor in determining people's peer groups. And believe it or not, even beautiful people can have the same kinds of relationship issues as everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, if sweet-natured beautiful women got driven into shyness by being stared at all the time, or (as maybe your friend), if sweet-natured beautiful women did find men deciding they were "in love" pretty quickly and found the implied responsibilities thereof something they really did not want to deal with.
Is it clear that being good-looking is immediately comparable to being unusually intelligent or being wealthy?
I think 65 is unfair to good-looking people.
Not saying that the scenario I described will be the case for all good-looking people. It's more likely for them, though, and not necessarily through any fault of their own.
Of course beautiful people can have the same types of relationship issues we all do (can).
69--
well, right, but this:
"looks are one rough factor in determining people's peer groups"
is surely a salient, noteworthy feature, no?
i mean--that appearance has the same kinds of effects as wealth, intelligence, social class, etc., in both expanding and narrowing one's social opportunities.
though i suspect that the effect is magnified for women, minimized for men.
'each teaming mother, anxious for her race,
craves for her young the blessing of a face.
yet Vane could tell what ills from beauty spring,
and Sedley cursed the face that pleased a king."
forgive me, dr. j, if i got some of that wrong. vane and sedley were two mistresses of restoration monarchs, can't recall which. bummer having a name like vane, and being a looker, too, huh?
Is it clear that being good-looking is immediately comparable to being unusually intelligent or being wealthy?
For women? Yes, that is generally assumed--because for women, looks are a material asset. Supposedly.
For guys? Less so; depends on other factors. For educated upper middle class type guys, yes, looks are an asset; for "slackers" (including the poor), they aren't. Socially speaking.
Remarkably intelligent people are also at a disadvantage in that they are pretty much limited to working with other remarkably intelligent people.
This could be true:
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/intercourse-and-intelligence.php
Tim Burke has finally decided to stop being reasonable now. Soon the Fontana Labs-SCMT axis of "come on, guys, let's not be so alarmist" will fall as well.
"Burke" sounds like a Norman name; surrender was to be expected. It will not all be so easy, Kotsko.
When her looks eventually fade, she'll find herself bewildered.
It's more likely for them, though, and not necessarily through any fault of their own.
Agreed, for sure.
72: Of course it's noteworthy. But we're a looks-conscious society, and as was pointed out upthread, part of what counts as "attractive" is a certain projection of the ability to afford time and money to achieve a certain look (as well as the cultural capital to be aware of which looks are "classy" and which aren't).
also--
on appearance and mating choices,
i seem to recall a study from some years ago
that claimed that couples who were roughly matched
in attractiveness were more likely to last longer.
gross disparities in looks led to earlier break-ups.
and it was a reputable source, too--
people, or us, or something like that.
to whatever extent that's plausible (and it has not held up in my own case, thank god and my forgiving wife), it will limit something, i.e. not the choice of initial mates, but the choice of steady, long-term sustainable mates.
all of society's ills can be laid at the feet of Tim Burke
When will his reign of terror cease? When, O Tim Burke, do you mean to cease abusing our patience? How long is that madness of yours still to mock us?
For women? Yes, that is generally assumed--because for women, looks are a material asset.
B, you are or are not a free trader?
Not following the link in 74 because I hate those people (sorry, JE), but I'm sure that the argument is something about how on the veldt people who were better at coming up with evopsych rationalizations that they were the intellectually superior group were more likely to bore their prey into a trance, thereby being able to eat without having to run the risk of actually hunting.
Tim, you failed to quote that entire paragraph.
For educated upper middle class type guys, yes, looks are an asset; for "slackers" (including the poor), they aren't.
What about educated upper middle class slackers?
JoeO, that link is fantastic. Favorite datum:
"The chart for Wellesley displayed below shows that 0% of studio art majors were virgins, but 72% of biology majors were virgins, and 83% of biochem and math majors were virgins..."
I think this implies that theatre majors have negative virginity.
a guy who was much bigger, more cut, and more naturally well-proportioned [...] was clearly superior in relevant ways
I get the feeling ogged wasn't comparing the same body parts on the two gentlemen in question.
re: 70
Being good looking is much commoner than either extreme intelligence or wealth.
78: I like it when you comment in free verse.
86--
that's a joke, right? pick how many standard deviations out you want to go, and you can always get equivalent rarities.
So, everyone -- in my controversial comment, I was saying that social pressures tend to push people toward people with their same attractiveness level. Attractiveness may well correlate with other desirable qualities such as intelligence or wealth, but there is no evidence that these types of qualities correlate strongly with the types of qualities that make for a healthy and enduring relationship.
I think this implies that theatre majors have negative virginity.
Only if you add Fallujah to the analysis. Therefore, the Lancet study is disproven!
87--
hadn't noticed that.
"that claimed that couples who were roughly matched"
is actually pretty good blank, for that matter.
maybe it was the early johnsonian echo that made me do it.
What the fuck are you people even talking about now? Being beautiful is a breeze, the guy at the gym was a tool, and skateboarders are, apparently, badass. The end!
Oh, and Tim Burke is the oppressor.
I think this implies that theatre majors have negative virginity.
They're born without virginity.
skateboarders are, apparently, badass
a healthy and enduring relationship.
That sounds interesting. What is it?
I wish the data from the link in 74 had been available to me back when I was deciding what to major in. Sign me up for studio art!
and skateboarders are, apparently, badass
Genuinely hurtful.
re: 88
No, it's not a joke. Obviously, if you are just picking standard deviations, then the equivalence holds.
However, what I had in mind was how we actually use the English words in conversation which obviously don't correspond across category to similarly calibrated deviations. If we used 'smart' to consistently mean 'top 5%' and 'good-looking' in similar way, then the equivalence would hold. But it doesn't seem to me that we do. There are all kinds of asymmetries in how we apply those superlatives across different categories.
Perhaps my threshold for 'good looking' is low but I'd much more readily apply it to a much higher percentage of people than I would 'really smart', say.*
* I realise this might be, of course, because I'm, by most standards, fairly smart, so the % of people who strike me as 'really smart' is low. But I'd still argue that the general claim seems right.
ttaM, my instinct would be to say just the opposite: there are lots of very smart people, but relatively few very good-looking ones. But there are many more people I find attractive than I find genuinely good-looking, so maybe you're using "good-looking" in the way I use "attractive."
99--
yeah,
i guess that clicks with my own intuition.
fairly smart, so stingy of calling others 'smart'.
godawful ugly, so everyone looks good to me.
as a claim of general usage, we'd have to ask the general user.
Being good looking is much commoner than either extreme intelligence or wealth.
I fear that this will lead to one of those threads, but: I'm actually not sure there's such a thing as "extreme" beauty in the way that there are extremes of the others. The ultra wealthy are, literally, 50,000X wealthier than median. This week's Jessica Biel is, like 100X hotter than median, 10X hotter than someone who's pretty cute, and no more than 2X hotter than the hottest girl in your extended social circle (scientists excepted).
I don't think that whatever "advantage" we're talking about track linearily like that - is being 10X hotter than median as big a leg up as earning $400k? - but I do think that wealth tracks very differently. This is because of Republicans.
100--
semi-comity: i am using 'looks good to me', which is closer to 'attractive' than to 'classically elegant' or whatever.
ttaM, my instinct would be to say just the opposite: there are lots of very smart people, but relatively few very good-looking ones. But there are many more people I find attractive than I find genuinely good-looking, so maybe you're using "good-looking" in the way I use "attractive."
C'mon, people, this is useless without examples. So everyone's on the same page, we'll need to keep examples within the Mineshaft.
You first, O.
For example, I am smart and beautiful.
Who wants to go next?
"I'm actually not sure there's such a thing as "extreme" beauty in the way that there are extremes of the others"
Yeah, I think that may be true and may also partly explain what I was calling the asymmetry in the application of the terms.
More seriously, I think ogged may be overestimating the number of "very smart" people out there, or else using a pretty low standard.
Furthermore, given that "really smart" has to include everything from computer scientists to essayists, I think it would be pretty artificial to compare that pool to the number of people who look like Cary Grant or Marlene Dietrich.
re: 106
And if we establish that I am, say, 2x smarter and more attractive than you, that gives us a way of calibrating our scale.
78, 87, and 101
make me wonder
what unfogged would be like
if all of us started to format our comments
as if they were free verse poems.
i imagine it would get tiresome
pretty fast,
but
when it did,
to breathe new life into the joke,
we could end each comment with
fuck you, clown.
I am also smart and beautiful.
This may not turn out to be a very useful exercise.
For example, I am smart and beautiful.
OK, so we've established the low end of the scale. Does anyone here not make it in?
In support of the experience described in 100, it strikes me that people are much more likely to be grouped, over time, on the basis of intelligence or wealth than attractiveness. So if you match a certain set of intelligence measurement criteria, as you've moved through The (or Burke's) System, you run into more and more people who have similarly met such criteria.
I am often stupid and not that attractive if it helps.
the number of people who look like Cary Grant or Marlene Dietrich
That's not the measuring stick, though. It's the number of people who look as good as the cute girl in HR.
My mother says I'm smart and handsome.
And with a fine head of red hair, too.
118: Funny, she says the same thing about me.
That's not the measuring stick, though. It's the number of people who look as good as the cute girl in HR.
Gawd, with that attitude, I bet you let everyone measure your stick.
102 seems right to me,
with wealth being the most easily metered, and the most uniform,
looks being hard to meter and subject to very low inter-rater reliability,
smarts somewhere in between.
(i.e., both that any particular kind of smarts, e.g. math whiz, is hard to quantify, and that one can be a math whiz and not so smart at music or languages or whatever.)
about the structure of the top end:
i agree that the best-looking people are not exceptionally better looking than the average people, not e.g. 50k times.
smarts i'm not so sure about. bach was a fucking genius. not just a better piano-player than you or me. not just better than the best kid in your high school, or the best piano-player alive. he was so fucking smart that he made brahms cry.
ditto for johnny von neumann.
in that regard, i do think there may be something like a 50k difference in smarts.
116, 117: I would agree, but it seems ogged has in mind an "objective" standard of beauty separate from individual opinion. At least, that's the only sense I can make of 100.
111--
what, what.
you guys never use the return key?
111--
and if the last line of 111 was addressed to me, then fuck you too, with no return key.
ogged has in mind an "objective" standard of beauty separate from individual opinion
Sure. The classically beautiful with great bone structure, great skin, big eyes, nice lips, etc. You know, Christy Turlington. But there are lots and lots of people who aren't Christy Turlington who almost all of us would say are very cute.
126: It's not. It's an old joke.
you guys never use the return key?
No. Why would we?
61:
All I meant was that being really smart and/or really attractive is in itself a rather arbitrary sort of state to be in. I mean, sure, it helps if you listen to Heidegger while you work out, but you have to have be born a certain way to achieve maximum effect. To be born smart and pretty just makes the injustice of it all particularly manifest, so pretending that beautiful people are ditzy and smart people are nerdy is a fiction useful for keeping the plebes in line.
128--
fair enough. that's what 'if's are for.
if the last line of 111 was addressed to me
You were here for that, weren't you?
But there are lots and lots of people who aren't Christy Turlington who almost all of us would say are very cute.
So why set up such a distinction between them and Christy?
Extreme beauty is the pageant portion of the X-Games.
What does it mean to be 'twice as smart' as someone, though? I'm reasonably bright -- I run into people who know a whole lot more than I do all the time, but much less often someone who I think is fundamentally a lot smarter than I am. (As smart, all the time, but not a lot of people I feel significantly inferior to.)
The smartest person I've ever met was a guy at MIT who I was in a bunch of classes with, who might as well have been from another planet. Hardly communicated verbally (that makes him sound nonfunctional, which he wasn't. Very pleasant, just not wordy at all.) but could effortlessly do things in math and physics classes that I couldn't get near. Never, in the time I was in classes with him, did I ever figure out anything first and be in the position of explaining it to him.
So, lots smarter than I am, but I have no idea at all how you'd quantify the difference -- the question "Was Kelly as much smarter than I am as Jessica Biel is prettier?" doesn't make any sense.
Because most people instinctively recognize such a difference?
>>the number of people who look like Cary Grant or Marlene Dietrich
That's not the measuring stick, though. It's the number of people who look as good as the cute girl in HR.
But Ogged was talking about "very smart." If he was calling the guy in software who put the office NCAA pool into Excel as "very smart" and the cute girl in HR "very good-looking," then I'm not sure where his 100 comes from.
Anyway, I was trying to suggest that, just as there are different intelligences, there are different attractivenesses (ack), and it would be ridiculous to lump all smart people into one group, then compare the size of that group with the subset of attractive people who are "classically beautiful" or whatever.
132--
nope, hard at work on a job.
67.68: Am I the only one that's ever fallen off a porch completely sober?
I'm not sure where his 100 comes from
That's okay, neither does he.
I've walked into a 5' off-the-ground tree limb cold sober. Smarted like a bitch.
126:
no,
it wasn't addressed to you
or rather
directed at you.
it was merely a reference
to what i consider
one of the greatest threads of all time,
the one where we speculated
and tested the theory
that any great poem
can be made even better
by the simple addition of
fuck you, clown.
I do think JRoth, LB and others are right that it's hard to have an apples/apples comparison between intelligence and looks.
142,
pwned by 132,
gasps,
with its dying breath
fuck you, clown.
Because most people instinctively recognize such a difference?
Do they, though? It's not even clear that most people in this thread do.
I'm really getting some hostile vibes here.
Do they, though? It's not even clear that most people in this thread do.
Apo clearly does, as does ttaM and (I'd bet) ogged. I'm not sure who you see on the other side.
142--
thanks for the explanation.
if i were in the business of writing poems, i'd give it a try.
i'm just trying to format my thoughts in a little box, is all.
135--
so kelly at mit, who caught on to stuff a lot quicker?
okay--keep in mind that what he was *learning* easily was actually *thought up* by somebody.
and that person was in that regard smarter than him.
and the guy who came up with the theorem that kelly learned quickly and you learned slowly--he would probably be the first to tell you that he was nothing compared to erdos. and erdos lived in awe of euler. and euler couldn't fathom the brilliance of archimedes. and so on up the chain.
it's like--i'm maybe one standard deviation out from the mean, and everything to the right of me is lost in a fog; it's hard for me to tell how much smarter smart gets.
but i can see a few people out at the two sd mark, and they tell me that there are some people out at the three sd mark. and i have read reports from people out at the three sd mark that they worship people out at the four sd mark.
and even though it's all foggy out there to me, cause i'm not smart enough to tell even what those differences would be like, i'm inclined to think they can.
there--
no return key, and 149 sprawls all over like a spilled custard.
take it away; it has no theme.
>>Because most people instinctively recognize such a difference?
Do they, though? It's not even clear that most people in this thread do.
I'm quite poor at judging the relative intelligence of others, partly because mere social interaction only reveals a couple of types of intelligence (mostly verbal, but also analytical and knowledge-based). So I don't know if someone in a technical - or artistic - field is a fucking genius in that field. All I know is that talking to her is like talking to a goddamn brick wall. But also, you have to interact a lot, or have one really serious conversation, to get a feel for fine gradations in intelligence - is that just surface wit, or is the wit evidence of serious thinking beneath?
Whereas a camera phone and 24 hours at HotOrNot definitively answers the attractiveness questions.
I'm not sure who you see on the other side.
We may not be on the same page here; I see you and ogged on one side, with apo and ttaM on the other.
I'm neither smarter nor better looking than the guy at the gym.
He reminds me of my own combination of laziness and vanity. I like looking good, but I don't have the patience to primp. So I have low standards that are easy for me to meet, and I spend a lot of time checking myself out in the mirror, thinking, "Could be worse!"
Of course, he goes to the gym, so who am I to call him lazy?
re: 152
See, you're sorting by attractiveness AND smartness, right there!
141: Thanks for admitting to that LB. I was sore for quite a while after my fall, but years later it's the stupidity that still stings.
I am intelligent but sort of goofy looking.
146: It's not flattery if it's true.
You didn't look particularly goofy in the wedding photos you put on flickr, Cala.
Are smart people better at assessing their own attractiveness?
158--
ah--now we're getting into the gender asymmetry of self-regard.
i didn't see the photos, but i'm guessing that cala turns out to be
quite nice-looking, and a victim of downward self-assessment bias.
which is more common among women.
meanwhile, the genuinely goofy-looking guy looks in the mirror and think's he's a god.
Shivbunny's dad is a wringer for the long-time boss of my (former) unit, my mentor. Did a double take when I saw him.
the gender asymmetry of self-regard
Which baa noted way back at 36. Surely true.
I actually am goofy-looking, for reals, though sometimes in a cute way, and a fair amount smarter than the mean, though not nearly as smart as I would like.
164: ringer.
165: Maybe on average, but nothing essential about it.
re: 162
That's definitely true. I look at myself in the mirror and think, 'could really do with losing 30lbs, but otherwise, not bad', my wife, who is (by *any* reasonable standard) better looking than me, looks at herself and thinks 'arrrggggh, I look terrible'.
163: Lots of makeup my cellulite-pocked ass.
I hereby declare an absolute moratorium on the women here playing the "I'm fat," "I'm ugly" cards. Every single woman from Unfogged I've met is perfectly good looking, and ya'll need to just fucking own up to it.
the long-time boss of my (former) unit, my mentor
I'm so sorry to hear that you were bobbitted, Idp. Shoulda listened to Emerson about those mail-order brides.
Except in the manner of 167 and 169. It's acceptable to say "I'm goofy looking but cute" or "I'm fat, but I look damn good."
Hey, you worry about your ass, I worry about my face.
I worry about B's ass in my face.
Are all three bridesmaids your sisters, Cala?
The point is I don't worry about my ass. My ass is a fucking fine ass, and cellulite is goddamn normal.
I'm sort of joking, but sort of serious. I sometimes feel like it's completely unacceptable to say "I look good and I'm smarter than average," but dammit, I *do* look good and I'm smarter than average, and ime that holds true for everyone here. It annoys me to end up feeling like I'm being a vain cow around the deformed and hideous, only to find out that y'all aren't deformed and hideous.
Plus it's just healthier, dammit, not to feel so insecure all the damn time.
174: And well you should, my friend. Well you should.
Those are nice wedding pictures, although not enough closeups of you - you look great from a distance, but I wouldn't try to recognize you on the street from them.
Your sisters (much more visible) are gorgeous and look like a ridiculous amount of fun.
(And Shivbunny's dad appears to be Zonker Harris in middle age.)
B, are you coming to MN any time soon? Then you can decide for yourself whether I'm deformed and hideous. Actually I have a skirt that I stencilled some years ago which reads "I will grow to be a monster".
Wait, just how does one see these pictures? Do I have to sign anything in blood?
Bobbit's unit was reattached; mine was moved to another city.
It's acceptable to say "I'm goofy looking but cute" or "I'm fat, but I look damn good—because it's hard-won self-respect for women. Many guys, not all, appear to have never questioned their own awesomeness.
One joins Flickr and emails ogged or 'Smasher to be invited to join the photo group.
(Is it wrong that a year after I joined, I've put up exactly two pictures? I suck.)
All Unfogged commenters are above-average.
180: They're mostly from my camera, and my sisters were alternately giddy and hyper the entire day. Especially the youngest who was the first to head down the aisle and freaked out five minutes beforehand because she didn't know how fast to walk or where to hold the flowers and it just had occurred to her that heading down first meant she wouldn't be able to take cues from the other two. (Yup, all three are my sisters.) So we practiced walking in the church basement. It was very cute.
One joins Flickr and emails ogged or 'Smasher to be invited to join the photo group.
Those are instructions to join the group, but I don't think Cala's pictures (or most of everyone else's) are restricted to group members.
I admit that I don't actually look like this.
Mildly OT, but has anyone ever won a thread so thoroughly as Felix did in the FYC? Total genius.
re: 188
That's right. The Frappr photos are still live it seems [linked by ogged below your comment].
181: Yes, I'll be in town next week. We will get together and I will smack you for playing the girl game of "oh, I'm so hideous." And then I'll FORCE YOU TO ORDER DESSERT AND LIKE IT dammit.
185: Well, we skew youngish and middle- to upper-middle class, so we probably *are* above average, on balance. Add to that that we're mostly American, and all from industrialized countries. We surely all have straightish whiteish teeth, clean hair and bodies, access to cosmetics for minor skin flaws and the like, and the ability to pick clothes that fit and are reasonably suitable to our body types and general peer group.
I realize that for women in particular, performing modesty--and comparing oneself constantly to models--is drilled into us from childhood on. And I realize that I'm lucky to have somehow escaped internalizing a lot of the bullshit "I'm not good enough in the looks department." stuff. And that I'm also a bitch. But it *drives me up a wall* that so many women feel like they constantly have to put themselves down when *there's no fucking reason for them to do so.*
It's ironic that B is so funny looking.
Hey, I like the way I look, and if you don't, Ogged, well then it's a good thing I'm not sleeping with you. So, nyah.
I am either smart OR beautiful, but I don't know which.
Also, 65: I think I dated that woman.
We surely all have straightish whiteish teeth
Some of us are British ...
[getting the joke in first]
ability to pick clothes that fit and are reasonably suitable
O RLY?
Hence the "ish."
I figured that was for the smokers, rather than the Brits.
re: 198
Arrgh. Doubly damned.*
* although I've sort of stopped. A couple of packs in the past 8 months.
Surprisingly, the internet doesn't have the photo of Katherine Hepburn skateboarding in the 1970's wearing a sailor hat.
Surprisingly, the internet doesn't have the photo of Katherine Hepburn skateboarding in the 1970's wearing a sailor hat.
Apparently it's from her book "Me" which you can "search inside," at Amazon, so the internet does have it, but I ain't gonna look for it.
I realize that for women in particular, performing modesty--and comparing oneself constantly to models--is drilled into us from childhood on. And I realize that I'm lucky to have somehow escaped internalizing a lot of the bullshit "I'm not good enough in the looks department"
I'm constantly startled by how pervasive this is, how tenuous the self-confidence.
What do we know about patterns of women's self-criticism, of their senses of their own prettiness, before mass circulation magazines with photo images in the 20th C?
What IA was suggesting in that link was exactly my question, and I had the same hunch. Not sure if the second link is a book on the right level, though.
What do we know about patterns of women's self-criticism, of their senses of their own prettiness, before mass circulation magazines with photo images in the 20th C?
It wasn't looks-focused. Women's self-examination in the late 18th/19th centuries seems to have been focused on spirituality, acceptance, humility--all that kind of conduct-manual thing.
I'm not sure what you mean by "on the right level" but since I haven't read the book, I can't add anything either way.
re: 205
Although, interestingly, the responses were quite similar. Eating disorders, self-harm, etc.
so nobody has made the connection between
the asymmetrical self-regard issue and
the asymmetrical negotiating strategies thread
from the other day?
the question is: what penalty do women pay, both in dealing with men and with women, for representing their own attractiveness accurately, to themselves or others?
and what advantages do men gain, both with women and with men, for erring on the side of over-confidence in their self-assessments?
seems to me there are many similarities to the negotiation thread.
Of course the situation is slightly complicated by the fact that it's not actually over-confidence in self-assessment that's 'punished', it's publicly exhibiting that over-confidence.
The public role people perform and their inner beliefs may be quite different. Smart kids are often familiar with concealing the fact that they are smarter than their peers. They certainly don't admit to other kids that they believe themselves to be much smarter than their peer group. This generally holds true of adults, also.
Women are punished so harshly for thinking they're attractive that it's almost rational to assume you're ugly, depending on how much you fear the punishment. There are a lot of men out there who are highly invested in lowering women's self esteem (presumably to increase the odds that they'll be able to find women who hate themselves enough to sleep with them) and those men are merciless to women who acknowledge their own hotness in any way, and will verbally tear them apart.
Also, that thing where guys fall in love with you incredibly easily: is that a looks thing then? Damn, I thought it was my natural charisma. My self-regard is wounded.
209--
sure, but the public projection can feed back into genuine self-doubt.
plus, on the veldt...and so now it's genetic. (hey presto).
210--
that's the kind of thing i'm talking about.
don't know if it's true or not.
any women want to speak to trying it both ways,
i.e. feeling better about yourself and acting that way
vs. feeling all oh i'm such a slapper don't look at me way?
all mysterious to me. but then i was mystified by
the results of that psych study on negotiating, too.
211--
care to splain? didn't get.
(tho always happy to laugh along at jokes i didn't get.)
Women are punished so harshly for thinking they're attractive
This seems insanely false. Part of what almost all guys find attractive is some confidence, a way of carrying oneself, etc.
I dunno, ogged. Confidence is sexy, but it's not uncommon to hear snipey comments if a woman thinks she's more attractive than she is. "Who does she think she is, she doesn't have the legs for that miniskirt?" "Fat girls shouldn't wear bikinis", that sort of thing.
Sure, I'm all for making it a more precise claim, but to say without qualification that women are "punished so harshly" just for "thinking they're attractive" seems plainly false.
Mmmm... if I were to say of my sister "She's gorgeous, and she knows it" I think most people would take that as that she was gorgeous and probably a little manipulative.
I think you're described your sister as a little manipulative, haven't you? Might not your choice of specific words reflect that?
If I were to say a "guy was handsome and he knows it" that would have the same connotation though. That kind of phrase has a well known meaning that isn't gender related.
I can't believe it took 106 comments for anyone to claim they are attractive. And then it was ogged, who doesn't mean it.
220: Well, you weren't around.
I think you're described your sister as a little manipulative, haven't you?
I believe the actual phrasing she's used is "batshit insane" or similar.
I would not be certain whether I meant it if I were to say I was attractive.
220: Well, you weren't around.
"urbane and witty" ≠ "egomaniacal"
If I were to say eb was attractive I would mean it.
it's funny how a lot of men falsely believe
that they are more urbane and witty than they are.
She is a little manipulative, and it's totally because she's figured out that old men are putty when an 18-year-old smiles at them. But the phrase 'and she knows it' connotes manipulation, like being pretty is something of which she should be innocently ignorant. (You can get this with 'smarter than you and knows it', too.)
223: Different sister. And I think that might have been 'batshit conservative.' Batshit insane is the cat (and wine-dark was the sea.)
And furthermore, if I were staring at myself in the mirror while standing next to Cary Grant, I would not be humming, "I feel witty, oh so witty."
Whereas I might be thinking, "ew, he's kind of dead now."
Different sister.
It's so hard to keep them straight.
did someone speak?
sorry--i was just staring into a blog
and thinking how incredibly awesome
my witty urbanity is.
flex that wit....
tense that urb....
Probably because I've only seen one movie with him in it, I associate Cary Grant with crop dusters and Mt. Rushmore.
cary grant--
probably the most beautiful embodiment of masculine self-possession ever seen on film.
what all other guys delude themselves about?
he's it.
and a sizable degree of self-regard is part of his persona.
hitchcock i think had the right insight:
with someone this in control of the world,
someone for whom the entire world is an endless oyster,
the best thing to do is to knock him off kilter.
Huh, I see that I've seen two movies with him in it. I guess I didn't find the other one memorable.
Sure, I'm all for making it a more precise claim, but to say without qualification that women are "punished so harshly" just for "thinking they're attractive" seems plainly false.
Sure, but I can't think what the exact qualifications are. Being "objectively" super-attractive gets you some kind of exemption but how many women are really that? I just watched Big Brother (UK) and a woman on there just got booed to the rafters for being fattish and giving a lapdance-- last year's winner was male and resembled a hobbit and his entire repertoire of dialogue was "Aye, at the end of the day I know ah'm a good-looking canny lad, like. Textbook."-- and he won!
OK, maybe the moral of this story is that watching Big Brother is a bad idea, but I can't help thinking that it also sheds light on the reasons why so many women hate their own bodies--it's just not socially acceptable not to.
211: Thanks!
213: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/People/rgs/sk-vashtar.html
Happy people are generally fine, but the ones who clap their hands are manipulative.
hands or no hands, their face will surely show it.
I certainly would not be considered objectively attractive enough to stand out in a crowd.
But I essentially like the way I look. I've checked myself out on the mirror. There are plenty of areas where I could improve, but why hate on the way you look?
Is that an Ogged thing?
Yeah, I think you need to lose some weight, Will. I can see that "family belly" from here.
My two kids really put a crimp in my workouts. The little bastards.
My not-so-little OCD girl makes me go on death marches, but still the belly remains.
Was that you checking me checking myself out in the mirror?
Late to the ball as usual.
1. I wish I was getting drunk in a ruined broch RIGHT NOW!
2. It's interesting that there's been more and clearer parsing of the concept of "attractive" (on this thread and others) than of the concept of "intelligent". Guy I went to HS with, looked like a hobbit, had the sweetest disposition you could imagine, and was a math/geography savant. Offered a merit-based full ride at MIT, but turned it down so he could go to school closer to home. Saw him on the bus 5 years ago -- I was sure they'd have him buried in the deepest bunker in Langley, but no, he said, he was liasing between local govts. and the fed. govt. on transportation issues, and he really loved the personal interaction aspect, couldn't imagine being tied down to a bunch of number crunching. Is he smarter than me? Certainly, when it comes to hard sciences, but I'm more envious of the fact that he's been smart enough to carve out a place for himself that he really enjoys and which benefits him and other people.
3. BPhD -- come on, I'm not a goon, or a woman, but you have to admit after meeting me that there are LOTS of people everywhere I go who are miles better looking than me.
4. Beauty/work etc. One thing that was eye-opening for me was my experience as a hiring manager. A couple of the women I hired were quite attractive by anyone's estimation. One of them was, alas, cursed with stereotypical "dumb blonde" looks -- tall, leggy, chesty, tiny, doll-like facial features, perfect flowy blond hair. Everytime she came in, her whole body language was about "don't look at me, I'm not just my body". I got the impression from talking to her that her life was an endless round of being given special favors because of her looks and resenting herself and others for it.
The other woman was a dark-complexioned dancer who "knew she was gorgeous" and used that to her greatest advantage in every interaction. When she came in for her interview she was wearing a skirt smaller than a bandanna. I hired her only at the urging of male colleagues, and felt pretty stupid about it later, when it became clear that she really did expect the world to fall at her feet everyday because of her looks.
243: I like the way I look. It just seems that no one else does. I think I look like adonis in geek clothing, but even my mom says, "Oh honey, you would be so handsome if only you " etc... .
Wait, were Cala wedding photos posted? are they super secret or is there a link? I'll confess to being sappy about wedding photos.
247--
ah--good to identify a method of intergenerational transmission.
men start with a positive self-regard from doting mothers.
women start in arrears from their mothers' projections of their own insecurities.
i think it helped that my mother always winced when she looked at me.
good for you foolishmortal. people should be happy with how they look.
kid is a guy? I fail at remembering gender.
i had always thought, e.g., that minneapolitan was a woman.
so many women hate their own bodies--it's just not socially acceptable not to.
True, but it's also generally the case, I think, that women are harder on women who say they're attractive than some men are.
Other men, aka assholes, love nothing better than cutting down haughty bitches to size. Or trying to. Whereas we haughty bitches love watching them fail.
246.3: You're fat, but you're better looking than I think you think you are. Whether or not there are people who are look better than you has no bearing on whether you yourself are attractive.
Whether or not there are people who are look better than you has no bearing on whether you yourself are attractive.
B speaks the truth. People should take this to heart.
256: B. is tired of "fat" being a pejorative, rather than merely a description. Anyway, Minneapolitan knows he's fat. There are plenty of good-looking fat people; "fat" isn't (and damn well shouldn't be) a synonym for "ugly."
The fact that Ogged thinks it is shows that he's the meanie, not me. So there.
Ogged is apparently emaciated. He is showing his own prejudice against people who are not thin by assuming that fat means ugly.
Apparently I speak the ungrammatical truth.
258: No, he's just a tall thin guy.
I'm just all about the love today, people.
I wonder, given that attractiveness is traditionally such an asset for women, that proclaiming it doesn't often come across like bragging about income or something would be for men.
261: Probably. But fuck that shit. Men should also be able to acknowledge (for instance) that they're doing just fine; it's irritating when a guy who you know makes six figures pretends that he's barely scraping by, for instance.
I think the test (for women) is whether a woman who acknowledges or even takes pride in her own looks tends to cut down other women. If you use your looks (or money) as a way of putting down other people who aren't so lucky, then that sucks; but there's something equally sucky, if more subtle, about saying you're poor/unattractive when you're not, you know?
*Plus* of course (making up for lost commenting time, obvs.), while good looks are an asset for women in a lot of ways, there's something to be said for decoupling the looks/worth thing by acknowledging one's looks simply *as* such, if that makes sense.
Of course, in my case, I'm both attractive and better than everyone else, but that's just pure luck.
Of course, in my case, I'm both attractive and better than everyone else, but that's just pure luck.
i thought you were blonde?
Attractive, superior, and blond. Plus I know the difference between "blond" (adjective) and "blonde" (noun, f.)
Really, you should know better, will.
I type and hit post. I rarely edit to correct. I make mistakes all the time in first drafts. That is what editing is for. [softball]
hitchcock i think had the right insight:
with someone this in control of the world,
Except I think Grant himself had it first -- he took advantage of his good looks, and everyone's inevitable envy, to learn expert pratfalls.
eb, you should try His Girl Friday, The Philadelphia Story (which of course benefits from both Katharine Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart), or (maybe unconventional choice) The Awful Truth.
I like Minneapolitan's remarks up at 146. Just saying.
269: And To Catch a Thief and The Bachelor and the Bobbysoxer. But especially His Girl Friday.
Speaking of Katharine Hepburn, has anybody here heard Katharine Hepburn's Voice? They put on a really good show last night.
In my mind, To Catch a Thief is the ur-James Bond. I've never seen The Bachelor and the Bobbysoxer. Bringing up Baby (more Hepburn) is also good.
Holiday is a great Cary Grant movie.
I'm unlikely to watch To Catch a Thief, having attempted it before. I don't actually like the movies I've seen Grant in, and didn't particularly care for the character he played, but The Philadelphia Story is on my "to watch" list. I'll look up the other two.
Everyone should watch Holiday. It's one of my very favorite romantic comedies of that era.
Freaktastic Cary Grant shower scene in Charade. Must-see!
All my recommendations were comedies, so very different from TCaT and NbNW.
Never saw Charade or Holiday. Guy made a lot of movies, evidently.
Freaktastic Cary Grant shower scene in Charade
I've never seen The Bachelor and the Bobbysoxer.
Dude. Myrna Loy. I think that's the movie in which he does the "I know a man with the Power..." bit, which I thought I saw you reference once.
Freaktastic Cary Grant shower scene in Charade
There's a deeper joke there somewhere, but I don't get it.
Shoot. The clip ends just when it starts getting good.
I know a man with the Power
I know that bit, but had no idea it was from there. Possibly it's also from somewhere else?
Shoot. The clip ends just when it starts getting good.
What was the punchline?
Cary Grant is great in Arsenic and Old Lace. I love that movie.
289: You just like poisoning people. And cats.
I also have a particular fondness for batty old women.
250: No, not good for me. If you've been raised in a hippie parent/punk peer environment, you think you look awesome and fuck those who think otherwise, etc., which works pretty good right through high school, but after that, the schtick wears off pretty damn quick. Hard to lose it though.
I can't explain it, and suppose I shouldn't even mention it so no one will agree, but I find Grant irritating even in that short Charade clip.
so s/b since
I should start using preview again.
Arsenic and Old Lace indeed also excellent.
Dude. Myrna Loy
You know what else, dude? Veronica Lake, Katharine Hepburn, Lauren Bacall. Rita Hayworth. Different class of women in movies in those days.
I find Grant irritating
You know what else you wouldn't like? The cartoons in The New Yorker.
I can't imagine not liking To Catch a Thief. Or, I can--it's not really a good movie; it's hardly a movie at all--but only if you're some sort of monster who can't appreciate a postcard from somewhere elegant and beautiful.
somewhere elegant and beautiful
AKA Grace Kelly.
Years of Hidden Valley Ranch commercials killed whatever boner I might have had for Lauren Bacall.
somewhere elegant and beautiful.
But I thought the movie was set in southeastern France.
I should start using preview again.
Nah. Like, my 270 should have said "246" rather than "146" but who cares?
Maybe that was too harsh; all indications - that is, pictures I've seen - are that outside of the resort areas that part of France is beautiful.
but who cares?
The site cares; let's maintain some quality, people.
I think I look all right now, but my Freshman year of highschool I was pretty scrawny (85 lbs 5'). I gained 10 pounds that summer and was 95 pounds for two years and looked quite a bit better. I didn't get any kind of chest until Senior year when I weighed 105. It grew bigger (a bit too big) in college.
The New Yorkers always seemed so sophisticated, and there were a couple who looked like models. I don't think I looked very good for most of highschool, because I didn't know how to dress and felt gawky and uncomfortable.
298: Love, love, love Kelly. She is astonishingly beautiful, especially in that movie. (She's also in a remake of Philly Story w/, IIRC, Sinatra (and someone else. obv.).) But in Thief, I prefer the French woman; I could watch the scene out on the floating platform all day. So bitchy, so delightful.
I even like one of Grant's weaker, light movies. It may have been his last. He's not the romantic lead but the matchmaker in Walk, don't Run.
The cartoons in The New Yorker
My sister tells me that some of the illustrations - not the stand alone cartoons - tell a continuous story in each issue.
Preview would have shown me where my italics tags went wrong.
303:
The site cares; let's maintain some quality, people.
Sorry. I'm abashed.
Thus, Cary Grant is established as the Official Actor of Unfogged.
Oh, Unfogged! or ogged, or LB, or Bitch, or Becks or whatever your name is! We'll have lots of children, and name them all after you!
kid bitzer wrote in 149:
and the guy who came up with the theorem that kelly learned quickly and you learned slowly--he would probably be the first to tell you that he was nothing compared to erdos. and erdos lived in awe of euler. and euler couldn't fathom the brilliance of archimedes. and so on up the chain.
Here's an interesting discussion topic, which might make its own thread. If you could be as smart as anyone--either living or dead--who would that person be? What do you appreciate about his/her type of intelligence?
I think I'd like to be as smart as Frank Ramsey, because he was so very good at so many things. His contributions to economics were seminal, and tehy were basically his weekend activities. He was good at classics, interested in politics and philosophy generally, but he was essentially a math specialist who made important contributions to logic. Economists love him now, but most of them would never have made the effort to translate Wittgenstein. Who knows what Ramsey would have accomplished if he'd lived past 26.
If it's not obvious from the poor writing, 313 was I.
I don't get the Grace Kelly boner at all. She's very pretty, yes, but she's so cool she seems like she's made of cardboard. Why guys go gaga over her when there are other very pretty women with actual personalities, I do not understand.
315: Well, she was a princess, after all.
313: Spinoza, maybe? Newton and Plato/Socrates are right out, because their intelligence is not particularly separable from my perspective.
313: eh, I can't get behind "smart" as a relevant characteristic. I would like to be 50% Niels Bohr and 50% Buckaroo Banzai, sure, but to say that you want one piece of somebody's intellect and not the other pieces implies that you know the categories into which intellect can be subdivided, which makes me hesitant.
In other news, being on vacation at the beach makes keeping up with unfogged threads damnably hard. Why must you test me so, Buzzard's Bay?
I think I'd like to be as smart as Frank Ramsey, because he was so very good at so many things. ... Who knows what Ramsey would have accomplished if he'd lived past 26.
Indeed. An excellent choice. Also because of his character, as this suggests.
Only an idiot would want to be smarter.
Really, the only way to keep up with Unfogged is to work a 9–5 white-collar job, never go anywhere and have no friends. Anything else just gets in the way.
I am happy with my current smartness, but I wish I had more mental discipline.
315: You say "personality" like it was necessarily a good thing.
Personality is a gateway drug to relationships.
323: Don't worry, John, I don't judge you for owning a Real Doll.
I am happy with my disciples, but wish I had more mental smartening.
I'm mental, but have smart disciples. In five hundred years I will be worshipped as a God.
You know, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Although I imagine you'd attract a better class of disciples than I have.
Don't disciples just get you wrong and hog power in your name after you're dead?
Intelligence, disciples.... What's wrong with you people? You should be wishing to win the lottery and lose your ambition.
330: You should be wishing to win the lottery and lose your ambition.
One out of two ain't bad.
I'm pretty sure that a kajillion dollar windfall would not make me lose my ambition. But I'd be willing to try it and find out.
Winning the lottery is my ambition. But I've been too lazy to actually go buy lottery tickets, so I'm not making much progress.
There was a man who was so disturbed by the size of his own ambition and so displeased with his own disciples that he determined to get rid of both. The method he hit upon was to run away from them. So he got up and ran. But every time he put his foot down he wanted to put his ambition even farther behind, while his disciples kept up with him without slightest difficulty. He attributed his failure to the fact that he was not running fast enough. So he ran faster & faster, without stopping until he dropped dead. He failed to realize that if he merely lurked on unfogged, his ambition would vanish and if he sat down and started commenting, there would be no more disciples.
I, on the other hand, have been working tirelessly towards the moment when I find a winning lottery ticket discarded on the sidewalk.
That & sign really gives away the cut and paste portion of the post.
Only an idiot would want to be smarter.
Than they are, I take it.
I would wish to be as smart as Wittgenstein, or Cavell. I have a craving in that direction.
But now I have a cat who's just smashed a dish onto the kitchen floor. Thanks.
Feynman, maybe. I wouldn't want to give up my ability to get laser-focused on random trivial-to-most concepts, though, even in exchange for being able to do more with my smarts.
'Awesome' has, I think, only appeared ONCE in this discussion, and, for ONCE, it was used appropriately! Thanks Ogged!
339: I would wish to be as smart as Wittgenstein... now I have a cat who's just smashed a dish onto the kitchen floor
Schrödinger would have been a better choice.
341: thrice, coach, excluding yours.
I want to be as smart as Warren Buffett. I could hire lots of people to be smart in all the other ways for me.
Schrödinger would have been a better choice.
Good try, Sifu.
Are you not going to BRC this year?
There is no try.
Re: me 'n BRC: it is up in the air. Rest assured, I will keep unfogged informed.
Rest assured, I will keep unfogged informed
ha. (Really, I just didn't expect you to be around much these weeks.)
BRC?
And what should be the proper use of awesome be anyway? I reserve "awful" for puns that are both, but I can't think of an "awesome" equivalent.
348: I think Herr is making the Izzardian distinction between calling, say, the universe "awesome" (in the sense of inspiring awe) vs. saying something such as, "Man, this hot dog is awesome!!!1!!!1!"
No idea about BRC.
Yeah, I've been looking at the news stories, expecting to read about a broken pelvis and some cracked ribs, but nothing yet...
Brown spent Thursday night in a local hospital, where he was treated for a bleeding liver, two sprained wrists, a bruised lung, and whiplash to his back and neck.
I can't post a comment without a mistake today.
Of course he is, and of course he is correct. But my question is this: is there such a thing that is both awesome and awesome?
Frank Ramsey is a damn fine choice. Plus he had the best middle name, evar.
re: Cary Grant -- his status as icon of suave urbanity is near universal, it seems. The Wu Ming/Luther Blisset* guys' novel 54 is pretty much a paean to Grant's cool.
* if you read one Italian anarchist authorial collective, read that one!**
** I love the whole Luther Blissett concept, tbh.
And I mean both, of course, in my designations of puns. Tweety's the other day, involving Argentinian ants, was one. I think Frowner made the list a while ago, with St. Bunnyface. In both cases, the puns were abominations made text; in both cases I was struck dumb with adoration. Well, maybe not dumb, and certainly not adoration, but close enough.
And, again, 355 to 349. (There's something vaguely disconcerting seeing my handle displayed so frequently next to the text "Self-Regard")
I'm happy with my Vice Lords, but I wish they had more political discipline.
Also, B, you forgot balding. And bespectacled.
Parsimon, why does everyone get to have a cat except me? I just woke from a dream that cats were biting my pinkie fingers though, so maybe that was prophetic.
Speaking of falling about five stories, from Minneapolis it seems that being in a car helps. Several bridge sections fell straight down and landed almost flat with the cars rightside up, and apparently the tires, shocks, springs, and seats absorbed a lot of the fall.
Huh. Also, I bet the sections weren't really 'falling' -- they were crushing the supports under them as they fell, that probably slowed them down.
I'm not sure if smartness gets at what I tend to most admire in intellectual figures, all of whom, obviously, must be smart if they are to be such. I tend to appreciate more a wide frame of reference, what I take to be good judgment, and for lack of a better phrase, a largeness of spirit. I suppose this has something to do with the fact that I'm mostly engaged by history of various kinds. Gibbon comes to mind, but I sometimes wonder if I don't prefer the Gibbon of Arnaldo Momigliano and Peter Brown to the actual one (not that I don't love me some Decline and Fall.)
Anyway, I don't know that I wish to be as smart as him, and I'm sure there are other people who were smarter, but these days the person who's caught my attention is the late John Michael Montias. Bored after a distinguished career as an economist when his subject area (the economy of the Soviet Union) began to fade, he turned around and changed the direction of art history to pass the time. It really burns some people up.
Parsimon, why does everyone get to have a cat except me? I just woke from a dream that cats were biting my pinkie fingers though, so maybe that was prophetic.
"Get" to have a cat? Unless you're allergic or living in an apartment that doesn't allow pets, it's not very hard to get a cat.
Most don't bite pinkie fingers; mine do paw my nose and lips in the morning to wake me up. I believe they consider the locus of my being to be my mouth.
Bespectacled is unattractive? Puhleeze. And you men are way too hung up on your hairlines: no one cares.
Hair on the head, generally a nice thing, is scarcer among older men, therefore desirable. It's Econ 101, B.
361: It's both, actually, but when I am allowed to have a pet at some point in the future, it's gonna be a cat, and I'm going to clean more and take pseudo-Clar/tin regularly.
Bah, slol. Receeding hairlines are something men fret about because they think it shows age, much the same way women fret about little wrinkles around the eyes. Neither impedes attractiveness one whit, and in fact both can make someone *more* attractive by giving a kind of character to the face. Anyway, think of all the hotties who shave their heads.
The only bad way to go bald is if you develop the bald top while retaining hair in a band from ear to ear and in a little spot at the top of the head. If that happens, just shave it off and be done with it already.
Oh, I do feel sorry for light-haired guys who go the 'evenly thinning all over' route. Receding is fine, honestly bald is fine, but being able to see scalp through a fine cloud of hair is not a good look. B. is right -- if that's what's happening to you, shave your head. (Crewcut, whatever.)
They say that bald men have more testosterone and are more virile.
Actually 367 would be fine without the combover. I'd shave the little tuft up front, though.
apo, Keynes was a pretty good investor too, though. Plus then you get to be intellectually important, and, you know, create macroeconomics.
357,361,364: Everyone else has had more pets than you? - I do sometimes get that feeling.
369. I linked 367 because B was going on the other day about how hot soccer players are. When that was taken he was one of the top dozen midfielders in the world. In his old age he apologised for the comb over.
re: 372
Yeah, one of the greatest players, ever, on lots of people's counts.
I have to admit, I've stopped worrying about the fact I am balding/receding, but for a long time, it really pissed me off. It's a fairly natural thing for men to worry about. I ahve the wrinkles at the corners of the eyes too. I'd like to stay looking 30 forever but it seems it's not going to happen.
I know the feeling. I still look fine, but I don't look 25.
371: Sadly, there are lots of people who've had less sex AND less pets than me, may God have mercy on their souls.
371: I love that one bunny's number is 3.5
I love the keyboard player with the zero and the bag over his head.
