I was unaware that Posh ever looked that human.
Top is Victoria Beckham (Posh Spice). Bottom is Jenna Jameson.
As if you didn't know.
Keep it real by staying young forever?
Seems complicated.
Thank goodness Ogged is here to teach me what various famous women look like.
Huh. I assumed it was all the same person. Jameson looks the same, then.
Bottom is Jenna Jameson Daffy Duck.
That was my initial reaction, too, Sifu. Getting bad plastic surgery gives the media something to talk about other than how saggy the boobs are getting. On the other hand, I firmly believe that there will be a widespread backlash in favor of 30-50yos whose faces actually show expressions.
I suppose asking that the pictures go behind the fold wouldn't be well received. It's a distinctly visually unappealing post.
(Actually, I had no idea what the point was before reading the comments. The two top pictures are the same woman, as are the two bottom pictures, and the idea is that both women look better significantly younger and before plastic surgery?)
I assumed it was all the same person. Jameson looks the same, then.
The facial recognition algorithms need work, o makers of the Timbot.
Yes, Jenna-on-the-left is the very model of the fresh-faced, just scrubbed clean look.
I do find plastic surgery's wide usage interesting, because it does seem to make people look worse. I really can't watch a movie with Nicole Kidman in it anymore; she looks too grotesque to me. There are a bunch of TV shows like that, too. That thing with Calista Flockheart, for example.
I think (hope) Ogged's point is that these pictures are not necessarily that far apart in time, and that these women would look far better at their current age, without all the reconstructive surgery. I'd much rather see a comparison of unenhanced women at these women's own ages. I don't even know how old Posh and Jenna are now, but my mind reaches well upwards when I see that hard, stretched, plumped look.
what the point was
That plastic surgery ages more ungracefully than just regular aging.
Also, note that the "before" pictures are publicity/modelling shots and have thus been air-brushed to death.
This is a pet peeve, and of course one critiques bad plastic surgery because one doesn't notice good plastic surgery, but I'm really not fond of collagen lips.
I firmly believe that there will be a widespread backlash in favor of 30-50yos whose faces actually show expressions
In people, companions? Sure, lots of us have been there for a long time.
Like the Greeks, or Japanese, our actors wear masks. But since our actors are always on, as part of the life, so are their masks.
You need to control for the fact that the "before" images are both highly processed (made-up, lit, photoshopped) studio shots, while the "after" images are both taken at public events. So those "before" shots are rather a long way away from "keeping it real." You might as well have said "keep it a fantasy."
17 crossed with the preceding five or so comments.
The thing is, I'm figuring people aren't stupid. Wouldn't you guess that actresses who have aged gracefully and attractive also have gotten plastic surgery, and it's just worked out better for them?
I do think that Jenna Jameson should never have stopped washing the naturally-occuring gallon of hairspray out of her hair every morning.
On the other hand, I firmly believe that there will be a widespread backlash in favor of 30-50yos whose faces actually show expressions.
I agree with that completely.
Bust on plastic surgery all you want, but you know that you are signing up to get wings as soon as they are available.
Damn, but you people are difficult. Almost all the unprocessed shots of Jameson are porn stills, and you wouldn't want that, would you? Isn't it *totally fucking obvious* that they've both accepted some very strange model of what they're supposed to look like, and become freaks as a result? They're both only 33, for crying out loud.
So someone like Patricia Clarkson—we just watched The Station Agent—has had plastic surgery too?
Even if, say, plastic surgery has a fifty-fifty chance of making you look younger or making you ugly, it might make sense. If your career depends on being youthfully pretty, and you're aging out of it, the surgery makes sense even if it's not a sure thing -- you're no worse off losing your career to surgery-induced ugliness than to natural aging, and if it works for you, you win.
Better Hollywood should accept genuinely older women, but that's not about the individual decisions of actresses.
Isn't it *totally fucking obvious* that they've both accepted some very strange model of what they're supposed to look like, and become freaks as a result?
Yes. There's an Uncanny Valley effect at work. Maybe it's just bad plastic surgery, as LB says. But these are really rich people dealing with what is maybe their most valuable asset. "Bad" means something other than "unskilled."
THey're both younger than me? Jesus--that's some hard living.
27: that very strange model being "exactly like they did at age 20"
Better Hollywood should accept genuinely older women, but that's not about the individual decisions of actresses.
Hollywood? Le problème nous est
Ok, I'm now convinced that most of you can't actually recognize human faces or make meaningful comments about them. Enjoy the echo chamber. I hate you all.
you're no worse off losing your career to surgery-induced ugliness than to natural aging,
But I don't think that's true. It might be that you're looking for a big win--youth--rather than a loss, like playing character rather than staring roles. But it's not as if there are no older women in movies. Especially if we treat 30 or 35 as older.
The decision to surgerize may have something to do with the way out of the old French maxim that an aging woman must choose between her face and her fanny---that if you gain a little weight as you get older, your face stays looking young, but if you keep getting skinnier, your face will get saggy and wrinkly. Since most women in the media seem to be about twenty to thirty pounds skinnier than they were in the 80's and 90's, I'm guessing surgery is the only way not to end up looking prematurely aged in the face.
I think some perspective is needed. Here's a picture of Jameson pre-surgery (without make-up).
Isn't it *totally fucking obvious* that they've both accepted some very strange model of what they're supposed to look like
No, I think they *started out* having embraced a very strange model of what they're supposed to look like, and they have tried to keep it that way, rather than adopting some other model. That's different from saying they started out looking natural and turned into weird inflatable dolls.
I have a suspicion that older actresses look so odd because the only way to stay 'young-looking' is to be skeletally thin so the wardrobe department can put young-looking clothes on you.
I don't think anyone's disagreeing that the after pictures are less attractive, but I'm not sure what you want us to say. I mean, Jameson obviously didn't want to look like the second picture rather than the first, she had surgery that didn't work out well.
I agree about Posh; the pics I've seen since I've moved to LA are horrifying, and I do not understand why that particular look is so beloved of rich women. It isn't a youth thing; it's a plasticine barbie thing, I swear.
The Jenna pics are ridiculous, because the first pic is so madeup and airbrushed you can't tell what she actually looks like.
37: the drugs can't have helped, either.
The other thing one has to remember is that most plastic surgery for TV and movie actresses is designed to make the face appear normal under odd lighting conditions. Lots of young women actors in their 20's are getting these huge cheekbone implants made to make them look a certain way on TV, and when photographed under normal conditions, they look like cyborgs.
37: I don't think I have pictures of my aunt up on the pool, but is that ever true. My aunt, rail-thin through constant dieting, is 48; my mother, borderline plump through, well, four kids, is 52. My mother is always mistaken for far younger because her face has barely any wrinkles.
Lots of young women actors in their 20's are getting these huge cheekbone implants made to make them look a certain way on TV, and when photographed under normal conditions, they look like the cyborgs they, in fact, are.
B, the first Jenna pic is ridiculous for the reasons you say. The second one looks like any number of heavily processed (surgical, etc.) late 40s early 50s women I've met. There is no way I would peg her at early 30s, if I had to guess.
Keep it real, Laydeez
s/b
Be naturally thin and gorgeous but don't base your self-worth on what everyone clearly considers to be the source of your worth, because then you'll embark on a harrowing quest of plastic surgery mummification, when you would have continued to look pretty good anyway.
Seriously, y'all (B, miraculously, excepted) are being ridiculous. Neither of them is a TV or movie actress. Jameson retired before she became a freak, as I recall. Lots and lots of actresses have plastic surgery, but only a few opt for the skeletal, amber-hued, duck-lipped look. Nicole Richie is another. I'm sorry I didn't post a picture of Jameson from one of her movies, looking unairbrushed and plumper and infinitely hotter. I trust you can find one on your own.
Is this where I am supposed to say that Elle was smoking hot in Sirens?
I'd much rather see a comparison of unenhanced women at these women's own ages.
Easy. Both of those women are six years *younger* than I am, and I look better than either of 'em.
Seriously, though, I get this "you don't look that old" thing all the time. And I swear the main reason for it is that I didn't tan much past the age of 15, never wore a lot of makeup, don't have fake fingernails, etc.
Probably the biggest issue for Jenna, if not Posh, is the tanning. I think Posh's problem is just that she's gotten rich and moved to LA and decided that the trophy wife look is the way to go.
Also, all of this "older actresses get parts" stuff ignores the fact that Posh Spice and Jenna Jameson are not the kind of, uh, actresses who can neatly transition into thoughtful character roles in dramas about the complexities of adulthood. What you're saying, in effect, is "let your career completely disintegrate by age thirty with grace and good cheer."
Which is not to say they aren't freaky looking weirdos, but, y'know: porn and teenybopping, potential for long-term success therein? Limited. Would either of them have anybody taking their picture at all anymore if they hadn't turned themselves into ridiculous spectacles?
So Ogged, if it's not to work, to be cast, then why do you think they do it?
Holy shit, Jenna Jameson is only 33? Damn. That there be some poor choices.
48: No, really, that look is quite popular with plenty of 30-somethings. Also with plenty of 20-somethings and even some college students. The only reason it doesn't look *quite* so horrible on the overprocessed 18-24 year olds is that they're 18-24 and therefore still in the "can pretty much get away with all sorts of awful shit" phase.
49: Yep.
(B, miraculously, excepted)
Oh, please. I'm the most looks-conscious person *on* these boards, supposedly. You know I think about this shit all the damn time.
I don't think Posh would look that weird if she weren't dressed and groomed like an anime villainess.
Holy shit, Jenna Jameson is only 33? Damn. That there be some poor choices.
Who would have guessed?
There really is nothing more erotic than when a woman's skin has the look and feel of a roasted turkey.
I think that "trophy wife look" is really fascinating. You see it a lot among stay-at-home wives in Manhattan, who seem hell-bent on getting a very tan, hard, rail-thin thing going on. I don't think it's about looking pretty or attractive; it's about looking expensive.
When I first moved to NY, dating was suddenly very easy, in a way it hadn't been in Cleveland. I looked very naive and fresh and natural in some way. The women I worked with at the spa spent most of every day trying to talk me into waxing my arms, wearing foundation, dying my hair, and getting into pilates, because, in their words, I didn't look like a "lady." Who would I be doing that for, then? I didn't like the look, and none of the people I dated found it attractive. It's something you do, I guess, for other NY women, so you have something to talk about.
Come on, Jenna has been through more hard wear than just plastic surgery, IYKWIM. It's the carnality, see?
54: For the same reason women wear heels and makeup: it connotes status. This really isn't that hard to realize.
The problems with Jameson in the "later" pic are really not that different from the problems with the earlier pic. Her eye makeup is *way* too harsh, her underlip's been plumped badly, and she's far, far too tan. Without those things, and with a better haircut (after all, her hair's processed to the same godawful hyperblond shade--it just looks worse b/c the contrast with her skin is greater), she'd look fine.
57.---I agree. She hasn't gotten so much plastic surgery in her face, for example. I disapprove of her having gone L.A. blonde, but, uh, a Spice Girl Trophy Wife's going to do what a Spice Girl Trophy Wife's gotta do.
Okay, and viewing this pic, it's also that she's far, far too thin, which isn't helping her lower face any.
Be naturally thin and gorgeous but don't base your self-worth on what everyone clearly considers to be the source of your worth, because then you'll embark on a harrowing quest of plastic surgery mummification, when you would have continued to look pretty good anyway.
Quite.
why that particular look is so beloved of rich women.
It's an alternate status hierarchy, with a close male analog to be found among compulsive weightlifters.
Not understanding the desired look is a marker of being unworthy.
I think were comparing candids with publicity shots, as someone said above.
60 squares with my conviction that very few guys are really attracted to the model-thin woman, but that some guys need the attention they get with a model type on their arm. The women are like props. They can even be business expenses, increasing the guy's prestige.
Just to hassle Ogged, though (and also b/c it's true) both the "before" pictures are studio, rather than candid shots. God knows Jameson's wearing way too much fucking makeup and her hair's a nightmare in the first picture, and it's pretty obvious that Posh is airbrushed all to hell. And she's already got the scary fake nails thing going on.
56: I know it exists for younger women, but my point was, I can't tell the difference. So if you look like that, I'm going to assume your 45 not 33. Which isn't what I think these women are hoping. The photo of Jenna given above literally looks indistinguishable from a couple of 50+ year old women I've met. At least in the face & neck (which is all we can see here)
54: Why do aging athletes have microfracture surgery? Our society doesn't really have second acts for these people. After a certain point having to reminisce about their past and eventually every conversation becomes a eulogy of sorts. Of course they have the surgery.
very few guys are really attracted to the model-thin woman
Bah. Define "really attracted to." Men are as capable as women as learning to think that skinny and fake looks better than fatter and real.
Seriously, y'all (B, miraculously, excepted) are being ridiculous... Lots and lots of actresses have plastic surgery, but only a few opt for the skeletal, amber-hued, duck-lipped look.
I'm not getting you. I'd absolutely agree that that picture of Jameson is unattractive, but do you think she meant to look like that on purpose? I'd assume she was aiming at something prettier, and failed through a combination of bad luck with the surgery and the irreversible effects of aging and sun. At which point, what's the advice?
Competitive Olympic weightlifters look weird. Certain kinds of body-builders are like trophy wives, but probably not the most competitive body-builders, who are pretty grotesque too. The buff, cut look is a fine line, unrelated to the actual sport.
stay-at-home wives in Manhattan, who seem hell-bent on getting a very tan, hard, rail-thin thing going on. I don't think it's about looking pretty or attractive; it's about looking expensive.
I don't think it's about looking expensive, but more about the quest for elusive perfection, in a quantifiable way: if I can enumerate "beautiful" and maximize each category, then I'll be the beautifullest.
But if the reason women wear heels and makeup is that it connotes status, what is wrong again with choosing to avoid women who do that, or a lot of it?
They can even be business expenses, increasing the guy's prestige.
This is true, and I often felt that the guys who were interested in me found me very attractive, but weren't exactly showing me off. Max liked to introduce me to his friends, whose wives were all the trophy hardbody type (Park Slope Style = hardbody ladies in expensive sweatpants), and they all shunned me. I was not playing the game.
having to s/b they constantly have to
72: See? So surgery was the way to go for her.
56: My sister is into the blond highlights, heavy eyeliner and constant tanning thing. She's eighteen, and to her, being tan is being desirable. And it isn't, but when you're eighteen and petite it's very hard not to look desirable anyway.
I am too aged, she says, to understand, but I pointed out in another ten years I'll still look 25 and she'll look like a purse.
72: See? So surgery was the way to go for her.
I hope you're kidding. And that should have been "posh candid."
73: LB, I gotta side with Ogged here. You live in NYC; you can't tell me that you haven't noticed that rich women make some crazy inexplicable choices about what they wear and how their faces look.
82: Yeah. But I don't really think she looks that bad in the top second picture. I can't see her face, really, which is the place that the problems of plastic surgery are made manifest.
73: The thing is, as far as I can see, this is usally what happens. Having major work done in your twenties that doesn't look nasty 10 years later seems to be a bit like winning the lottery. So why do so many women do it anyway? Why don't the look at the crop ahead of them and go `no way!'. Literally, out of all the women I know had work done 10-15 years ago (lets say about 20 women) for only one it isn't obvious --- and I'm certain 17-18 of the rest would look better now if they hadn't done it.
77: Nothing. I don't care who people date or think looks good.
82: My only comment is going to be that it would *much* buttress your credibility, Ogged, if you'd post candid pics like that when you want to claim some woman is hot, rather than the easier-to-find studio pics where they're airbrushed and groomed to perfection, which seriously muddies the water.
So why do so many women do it anyway?
Because people tend to go for short-term gains rather than long-term ones, especially when they're young. Duh.
On further reviewing the posted pics, I feel it's necessary to point out than in the "before" pics both women have totally fake eyebrows, which they're only getting away with, again, because they're otherwise very attractive girls.
Yeah, there's something amiss with 'keep it real, ladies' applied to that first Jenna Jameson shot, unless 'keeping it real means 'only four shades of eyeshadow.' The first Posh shot is natural-looking, but that's not the same as no makeup.
I really think it's about the illusion of control over that which one doesn't have any control, ie aging. When something triggers your fears, you stop acting rationally. The fear of aging is incredibly intense, because their worth was pretexted entirely on being young and beautiful. So they grasp irrationally at anything which promises to return them to that paradise-state.
Ok, I'm going to murder you all if I don't stop reading this thread. I'm going to do some work or something.
89 wins, for both weightlifters and cyborgs. There's a nice bit about the relevant fears in Terry Gilliam's Brazil.
A little while I saw Posh and Beckham being interviewed by Ali G for some charity event. Ali G abused them for fifteen straight minutes, and Posh and B spent the entire time giggling like little kids. She looked more adorable in that footage than I would have ever thought possible. I really suspect that the "Posh Spice" persona is some sort of elaborate public act that she decided to ramp up a notch or two for the move to L.A.
Jenna Jameson's look, on the other hand, seems like a tragic accident. As for 73, I would advise rest, soothing tai chi in a shaded garden, and a live-in French cook.*
*Last night I made a quiche to an authentic recipe for the first time, and it demanded TWO FREAKING STICKS OF BUTTER just for the crust. That's as much as makes an entire batch of chocolate chip cookies. My bird-like honey was all "mmm, the more butter the better!" But, Jesus....
87: Well, yeah, people tend to go for short term gains over long ones ... but this seems pretty extreme. It's like `pay lots of money for 5 years of sort-of what you wanted followed by 50 years of regret'. Occassionally people sell off all their assets, pool up their savings, and have a really, really crazy week in vegas. But not many people do this. It's kind of the same thing, except so many more people do this. Which is why I'm confused by it.
89: This is why I'm planning to peak late.
We are not cowed by the threats of one who cannot convince the jihadi cab driver to take him to his destination.
89 makes way more sense to me than 87, fwiw
You live in NYC; you can't tell me that you haven't noticed that rich women make some crazy inexplicable choices about what they wear and how their faces look.
Would it be lame to say that I don't actually know any rich women? Female lawyers run pretty light on the surgery, and people I know socially as well. I suppose I see weird looking people on the street sometimes.
This is why I'm planning to peak late.
Oh yeah? I'm peaking later this year. Around October, when the leaves are changing.
85, 89: Nah. You really don't need complicated theories. We're all used to our own faces, and we notice minute changes. It can't be all that hard to try to address one little thing, and then yet another little thing, and to sort of keep going by looking more at the trees than the forest.
Evidence in support: the number of gorgeous older celebrities (Bacalll, Hepburn, Loren) who have clearly had one or two small things done, but have had the good advice or restraint or eye to keep it small--just age spots, or eyelids, or drooping bottom lids, or such--rather than messing with underlying structures which were already about as good as it's possible to be.
Occassionally people sell off all their assets, pool up their savings, and have a really, really crazy week in vegas. But not many people do this. It's kind of the same thing, except so many more people do this.
People don't generally sell off their assets and have a crazy week of major surgery. They do it little by little, much the same way as plenty of people gamble a little here, a little there.
97: No, that makes sense. You just need to go to sceney bars once in a while.
BTW, Ogged, thanks for hiding the pictures.
Adjusted for airbrushing and makeup, ti's quite evident that there are mostly organic women underneath the first set of images. For a stock photograph of a celebrity you will always have to do this adjustment. Doing the same for the second set, however, gets you Dragonball Z and the female Terminator.
Though in Posh's case this is more the fault of bad photography combined with alien fashion sense.
rather than messing with underlying structures which were already about as good as it's possible to be.
Best insight so far.
100: People might do better to get their major cosmetic surgery all done at the same time, that way it all looks good together.
I've long thought the same way about tattoos. So many people have tattoos that are very nice on their own, but just look weird pasted at random all over their body.
Moreover, Posh's breasts are way way way more attractive in the first picture, before she got them blown all out of proportion to the rest of her body. The hydraulic frankenbreasts are entirely more mystifying to me than the ducklip thing.
rather than messing with underlying structures which were already about as good as it's possible to be
Where they more distinctive to start with? Did they have better judgement or advice?
Or do they stand out because they lasted, when many in their cohorts fell away, and it's reasonable to suppose some few from recent decades will last as well?
I just want to point out that when I first loaded the page and saw this post, the photos did not show up. I spent a good six or seven seconds pondering what Ogged might be referring to.
in Posh's case this is more the fault of bad photography combined with alien fashion sense.
All the pics of her since she moved to LA make her look horrible. And yes, part of it is that she's chosing godawful clothing, but a big part of it really is the tan and the awful hair and wearing way, way, way too much makeup and having lost too much weight. And I think she's probably had her nose tapered to one of those awful tiny points and her lips all fattened up too, but I haven't really looked closely enough to say that with much confidence.
i'm very happy this got posted, and i think it's socially beneficial for us to go public with it.
these women did this to themselves because of market pressures--their agents, their advisers, and the rest of the competitors in the same market told them that this is what they have to do to compete. they do it because they think there's a demand for it.
a post like this counteracts that pressure by showing that the demand isn't there, and that if anything the market would like them to forgo such procedures.
this is one of the advantages of moderate internet celebrity.
so, actually, the ruder and harsher we are about their appearance, the more authentically feminist we are being.
Oh yeah, and I meant to say the fake half-sphere boobs too. Never a good idea.
The hydraulic frankenbreasts
That does look to be a highly engineered corset she's wearing. Also, the tactical use of duct tape for breast augmentation---perhaps deployed in coordination with retro-engineered suspension mechanisms---has been observed for some decades. Silicone systems are not always necessary to magnify effective volume.
The hydraulic frankenbreasts are entirely more mystifying to me than the ducklip thing.
I can understand the big tits thing because hey, big tits! The lips really seem creepy.
And what mcmc said. First thing I thought at the Posh pic was "whoa, anime villain chick".
The market won't ask them to forgo these procedures, though, because, past the age of 25 or so, a woman only has value as a media star if she's a trainwreck. People take a lot of photos of girls-gone-hideous, and it may be the only way for women to stay in the public eye. Would anyone have taken that photo of Jameson if she didn't look so freakish?
a post like this counteracts that pressure by showing that the demand isn't there, and that if anything the market would like them to forgo such procedures.
Good job JJ and Posh read this blog.
We're all used to our own faces, and we notice minute changes.
It's so weird when you're used to your body and face and then all of a sudden notice a change. Like I was out on Friday and my hand brushed over my arm and felt a bump and realized I had a mole that I'd never ever noticed before. When did that happen? Where did that come from?
Heebie's 89 and this: It can't be all that hard to try to address one little thing, and then yet another little thing, and to sort of keep going by looking more at the trees than the forest.
together constitute the best explanation I can think of, at least for the two women I've known who have gone this route.
111: This is not a corset and duct tape.
115: Yeah. I'm not terribly excited about the emerging sunspots on the tip of my nose and just up by my part, but I am resisting, resisting! contemplating lasering the goddamn things because I know that that way lie botox and cheek implants.
This is not a corset and duct tape.
Holy iron nips Batman.
Oh dear. No, that is not a corset and duct tape. That is a problem.
She looks like a porn version of the gelfling from the Dark Crystal in that one in 117.
by the way, did you see that an officer in abu graibh was acquitted on charges of having countenanced bad behavior by his underlings.
lucky, they did find him guilty on one charge: disobeying a commanding officers prohibition against talking about the case.
could they have made it any plainer that they have no problem with the behavior, they are just against people knowing about the behavior?
What if the media's obsession with dumbass trainwrecks functions the way periods of intense cultural satire do, by clearing away the aesthetic excesses of the late 90's and freeing up ground for new aesthetic ideals? I don't mean to sound naive, and I know that whatever replaces rail-thin, overtanned hardbodies with balloon tits will be just as oppressive and awful, but it will be interesting to see what follows.
100: Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest they funded things the same way; sorry that was inarticulate of me. I meant the similarlity was in the aspect of a short period of `pleasure' followed by a long, and almost guaranteed period or some level of pain (bankrupcy/poverty/financial constraint, vs real dissatisfaction with your looks and nothing left to be done for it). I say `pleasure' because in both cases I think the idea of it is much better than the actuality (I've known many people who regretted plastics pretty much immediately, and one who told me that gambling away his savings wasn't nearly as much fun as he had thought it would be)
whatever replaces rail-thin, overtanned hardbodies with balloon tits will be just as oppressive and awful
Well hey, it's easy enough to feel real dissatisfaction with your looks and feel there's nothing to be done about it.
115: I have a lump on my knee like that. One day normal knee, next day rubbery subcutaneous lump.
126: sure, and some people will by philisophical about it ... but for others it will become the central tragedy of their days, which is sad.
I just periodically feel shitty about it, myself. Isn't that the more usual way?
was 130 to 128?
if so, I'd say yes --- for most people --- but for people who have had major surgical modifications in hopes of staving this off? That, and suddenly looking 10-20 years older than you really are can't help.
125: But no matter what the media embraces, it excludes real human bodies. I remember the day that Lane Bryant set up a window display on 34th St, and I remember thinking, "Holy cow! How radical, to see size 16 mannequins on 34th Street looking foxy!" But a friend of mine who is a size 16 finds the Lane Bryant mannequins and aesthetic even more shaming than the size 0 window display at Express next door. Like, it's fine to be a big sexy woman as long as you have zero cellulite, long legs, and a completely smooth, curvy form. (I.e., the Dove ads debate all over again.) And I can see that. The Express mannequin "ideal" is so far away from my own body type that I don't bother to compare myself to it, and I shop there without thinking about being the "wrong" type.
What's weird is how the entire SHAPE of Jameson's face has changed, or seems to have.
Maybe the collagen lips are a cunnilingus thing? I have no idea, just hope my wife doesn't make me do that. Collagen, I mean.
131: Are you casting doubt on the power of the Bible?
I am myself waiting for the William-Gibson-cyberpunk-utopia form of plastic surgery where it's cheap and effective and quick and painless and everyone has it and you can get, say, teeny-tiny vat-grown cat-teeth in place of your natural ones, or a disgusting slab of shark cartilege instead of a nose. In college I changed my hair every couple of weeks; once the Gibson-utopia has arrived, it will be my whole face.
Chuck Norris jokes featuring The Bible?
I am myself waiting for the William-Gibson-cyberpunk-utopia
Don't forget the virtual sex with everyone on your favorite blog's comment thread. (If that's really "utopian.") I'll be the one with the huge lips.
136: What Will was referring to in his crack about the wings. Wasn't there a Harpers cover story about those radical alterations a few years ago?
Real conversation this morning (Molly is my wife, Caroline my four year old)
Molly: No Joey you can't nurse. I'm tired of this.
Caroline: I have an idea, Mama, you can just get rid of your boobs!
Molly: A boob-ectomy
Me: It lowers your chance of breast cancer.
Caroline: Or you could give them to someone else!
"whatever replaces rail-thin, overtanned hardbodies with balloon tits will be just as oppressive and awful"
I agree totally. CF the status heirarchy threads. and thats why i am blase about fighting beauty standards, other than to favor those which are more taste-based, and less class/$-based.
Also, Jenna Jameson just got her tits removed
Note to self, helpy-chalk's name IRL is "Joey".
I mean, her silicon ones.
Also isn't this largely about remaking oneself so that instead of being stuck with what you have, you fell more in control of your appearance?
But no matter what the media embraces, it excludes real human bodies.
Part of fashion and maybe even beauty is its rarity. Or if not rarity exactly, that it is not something easily attainable, because it is so much a mark of status. So while standards shift -- now it's androids with frankenboobs, in medieval times we are told it was voluptuous curves -- it's never going to be something common to most people or most bodies.
OT: We were talking about Milton Keynes yesterday. It is now the subject of the greatest subhead in newspaper history.
145: I've seen that argument made frequently, and while on one level it makes perfect sense, on another it doesn't. What about that thing where they average out people's faces, and the averaged face is prettier than the starting faces? There's something weird where the beauty ideal is outside the norm, rather than a golden-mean, perfected ideal version of the norm.
OT: Priceless Sen. Craig denial video.
147: "Prettiness" has very little to do with fashion ideals, which are more often about interesting extremes. The fashion industry is not interested in putting size 6-8 women with healthy shapes on display because we won't stare at them. If they get us to stare and think "My God! Look at that!" then they have our attention.
. The Express mannequin "ideal" is so far away from my own body type that I don't bother to compare myself to it, and I shop there without thinking about being the "wrong" type.
But don't you think that the result (if not the intent) is (a) good, and (b) the way it normally works? It seems to me that the growth in the ubiquity of media hasn't made things more oppressive, but open to more--if still impossible--standards. The range of people considered attractive now is just much greater than it was when I was growing up. There are alternative standards, and not everyone agrees in the least on what's attractive. Hell, I don't agree with myself from day to day.
there is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion
And LB, just how many people have blemishless faces?
148:
"I was not eager to express this failing, but I should have anyway, because I am Not Gay."
Isn't this the subtext of most of Labs' posts?
Oh, I'm not saying perfection at the median, or however you'd describe it, isn't unusual, but it's something different from having the ideal fall outside the normal range.
I want credit for getting the point immediately, and agree that the general reaction here is kind of surprising. These women don't just look bad compared to younger, airbrushed, well-lit versions of themselves; they look fucking weird because of the stupid plastic surgery they had.
And I don't think there's a whole lot of plastic surgery that's walking around unnoticed because it was so successful/skillful/understated. I think most plastic surgery looks bad. And be particularly careful of getting your eyes done: an old family friend did this years ago, and all this time later, she still looks like a stranger to me post-surgery, despite knowing her my whole life. Those face-recognition circuits are robust and important for us; start fiddling with your face and you'll become someone different to all your loved ones, for good.
147: But faces and bodies are not the same. If facial symmetry is considered good then averaging faces will yield better looks in a way that averaging bodies wouldn't, and I think that probably holds. And even so, it's entirely possible that a face that is close to the average of a bunch of appearances will be extremely rare on the veldt in the wild.
153:
"I've been in this business 27 years in the public eye here. I don't go around anywhere hitting on men, and by God, if I did, I wouldn't do it in Boise, Idaho! Jiminy!"
155 is exactly right; i was trying to say something like this , but did a bad job of it.
154: LB, i think one problem with those studies is that we already know that people value symmetry highly in this, and averaging tends to give unnaturally symmetric faces.
155 gets it right. Christ, people.
Plastic surgery is a pox on our society.
Michael Jackson.
I have nothing to say about him; it just seemed that his name belonged in this thread somewhere.
well iirc the faces that are not just averaged, but also adjusted to have unusually large doses of gender-specific traits, are actually more attractive than just averaged faces.
I could buy that the prettier a face gets, the greater extent its not getting objectivly prettier, and just getting status-increased. I'd say its pretty clear on the extreme ends, the disfigured from disease/accidnets, and the subcultural markers like dangly earings.
I know someone else has said this already, but I don't think these women really want to look "pretty." Lots of women look pretty, certainly vatloads of women in the industry are pretty, with more pretty young things arriving in L.A. every day. What these women want is to look striking, glamorous, unattainable, and rich.
Whether they've attained those, I don't know. What they got was ugly. But ugly is also striking, and the current market standards determine the rest.
And also: I had occasion, years ago, to attend a few big-deal fashion shows complete with high-profile supermodels. I was struck by how totally weird-looking they were up close, men and women both, and profoundly unattractive. It definitely changed how I look at famous pretty people - I never get too worked up over good looking celebrities, but I'm constantly pleased by the parade of hottietude I see just walking around the city. Real people are way cuter.
Hell, I ain't telling no rich wimmins what they should or should not look like, nor what they should or should not do with their bodies. JJ is not my tragedy, nor society's, for JJ does not belong to us.
Moving on.
147: But that's just the point, isn't it? When you average the faces (I'm guessing you're talking about the 'what if the whole world interbred' sort of Newsweek-style pics where you get a woman with olive skin with hazel eyes with the epicanthal fold and mildly curly hair), you get a face that almost no one has.
153: I'm glad I'm not the only one giggling about this.
163 is part of it too.
I wonder though, if it's a bit like grills. Some of the LA trash-rich look is quite expensive, after all. I've seen a few `thug' teenagers here wearing 20 or 30 k worth of diamond on their teeth. They look like idiots, but they look like idiots with some money.
166 --> 157. I'm not talking to myself here.
Was there a second discussion of Milton Keynes, yesterday? I thought that was an overnight—hence heavy British participation, beyond subject-matter—about a week ago.
163: I saw Helena Christensen in a bar a few years ago, and she had to be the best-looking woman I'd ever seen at the time. Rebecca Romijn is also quite attractive in person, though significantly smaller than one might expect.
No, I think it works within an ethnic group -- like if you averaged a couple dozen German women, you'd get a prettier German woman. Maybe the idea is that it only works on faces rather than bodies, but what I was thinking was that making your beauty ideal someone in the center of the range of variation, so that lots of people are close to it in at least some respects, is a very different thing than making your beauty ideal well outside the normal range of variation.
171: right, it works within pretty narrow ranges --- but like I mentioned above (and probably others too), it's really hard to account for the effect of unnatural symmetry (averaging does wonders for complexion, too, depending how you do it)
There's an equivocation here between the mathematically 'average' face, which might be quite beautiful and rare, and the 'average', or typical person.
And I'd submit that while the 'average of German faces' might indeed reflect an average of length of nose, spacing of eye, jut of jaw, that the typical German woman will not have that perfectly averaged face. One can be an average without being average.
I am not saying that 'beauty is always found on the extremes', just that 'beauty is always (mostly?) rare.'
171: I think symmetry is the quality gained or amplified through the averaging/superimposing process that you have in mind, and symmetry traditionally has a great deal to do with what we call "beautiful." I imagine that there are the usual post facto evobio explanations for this, but it's probably better to take those with a grain of salt if not more.
136: I am myself waiting for the William-Gibson-cyberpunk-utopia form of plastic surgery where it's cheap and effective and quick and painless and everyone has it and you can get, say, teeny-tiny vat-grown cat-teeth in place of your natural ones, or a disgusting slab of shark cartilege instead of a nose. In college I changed my hair every couple of weeks; once the Gibson-utopia has arrived, it will be my whole face.
Not that it's quick and painless, of course, but the link below regarding extreme body-mods seems relevant here. (SFW, but definitely not for the overly squeamish. Originally found at BoingBoing.)
http://deputydog.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/top-10-physically-modified-people-2/
Sure. All I mean to say is that the necessary rarity of beauty doesn't necessarily explain the existence of beauty standards requiring extremes of variation -- you can get the rarity just the same at the median.
Beauty is the opposite of "rare". This is a stone cold fact. Beauty is ubuquitous, even immanent.
And honestly, this thread, with the feminists decrying thick lips, too much tan or makeup, balloon breast, skinny arms, etc etc while simultaneously saying it is all the patriarchy's fault is just fucking hilarious.
I believe the beauty is all around me.
Honestly, bob, put a sock in it.
And honestly, this thread, with the feminists decrying thick lips, too much tan or makeup, balloon breast, skinny arms, etc etc while simultaneously saying it is all the patriarchy's fault is just fucking hilarious.
I know! Nothing better than a buncha harpies feeding on their own! Wimmen, can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. Man, what I wouldn't give to have a coupla titties to play with right about now.
Oh look, I have some in my shirt.
put a sock in it.
A beauty practice that's bound to backfire.
Bob, it's a classic of being "the patriarchy's fault" without being "men's" fault. And nearly every comment I've seen has implicitly acknowledged as much. See particularly AWB's about how desirable she found herself, and how women she met wanted to work on her to bring her into their norms.
If Posh Spice seems ugly to you, then tell yourself you are not horny enough to see and call forth her hottness.
I'm late to the party here, but I just want to point out the implicit premise of this:
If your career depends on being youthfully pretty, and you're aging out of it, the surgery makes sense even if it's not a sure thing -- you're no worse off losing your career to surgery-induced ugliness than to natural aging, and if it works for you, you win.
Which is that when considering your LIFE, your ONLY consideration IS YOUR JOB!!!! Yikes!
177: If we're taking our maxims from after-school specials where we're also all unique, just like everyone else, sure. Otherwise I look at what fashion and media generally dub beautiful, and it sure as hell ain't the everywoman.
Maybe the collagen lips are a cunnilingus thing?
This is totally a joke. Right?
163: I call sexism b/c Cerebrocat can say this and Ogged doesn't tell him he's lying.
I believe the beauty is all around me.
You know what would be a fun thread? If we got to make fun of NPR's This, I believe. I believe the children are the future.
Re. averages--I'll go along with averaging faces = prettier, but not averaging = more beautiful.
... the future wage/insurance slaves of the US consumptive economy, you mean?
Y'know, I thought 109 was pretty bad until Bob came along.
But that's only because you are screwing with the axes, and so are constructing a median along one synthetic axis while all the variation actually occurs on a different axis, for which the "pretty" faces are six standard deviations out or whatever.
186:It was not a cliche, but an actual observation. It might have to do with advancing age and some isolation, but 80% of the people I see are attractive, and 10% are beautiful. I am sorry if you, for whatever reason, need a harsher vision.
Are Berry or Johansson or Portman twice as beautiful as the hundreds of other actresses? No. Are the actresses qualitatively better-looking than what I see on the street. No.
189: All are beautiful in the eyes of the Lord.
Except you.
And you.
And maybe you. Put on some lipstick and we'll talk.
the old French maxim that an aging woman must choose between her face and her fanny
I haven't heard that one, but I did get this in my inbox one time. (I will now preemptively ban myself.)
Geographie d'une femme
- entre 18 et 20 ans une femme est comme l'afrique : à moitié sauvage, naturellement belle et pleine de mystérieux deltas à la fertilité certaine.
- entre 21 et 30 ans une femme est comme l'amérique : développée et ouverte au commerce, spécialement avec ceux qui ont du pognon.
- entre 31 et 35 ans une femme est comme l'inde : sensuelle, relaxée, épanouie, convaincue de sa beauté.
- entre 36 et 40 ans une femme est comme la france : délicieusement mûre, elle reste un agréable territoire à visiter.
- entre 41 et 50 ans une femme est comme la yougoslavie ... la guerre aujourd'hui perdue, les erreurs du passé la hantent. de grosses reconstructions doivent être lancés.
- entre 51 et 60 ans une femme est comme la russie : étendue, aux limites incontrôlées. le climat froid décourage les visiteurs.
- entre 61 et 70 ans une femme est comme la mongolie : un glorieux passé de conquêtes, mais hélas, aucun futur.
- après 70 ans une femme est comme l'afghanistan : beaucoup savent où ça se trouve, mais personne ne veut plus y aller...
195:Yeah, it is. If I can't walk my dogs in the evening without seeing 10 beautiful people out of the hundred in a 10 block neighborhood, that qualifies as:"The beautiful are everywhere."
Ya know, maybe women might stop judging themselves by their appearance if we stopped, umm, judging them by their appearance. I know saying this makes me a sexist pig.
189: You and Francis Bacon.
What I've never gotten over is how different people look to me almost immediately after I start talking with them. This was true even when I was a teenager, and would have crushes that would crash when the personality started coming out.
But the opposite is true too. I still to this day have the experience of women literally lighting up, as if you'd flicked a switch on, once you had a sense of them and a reason to be interested. After that you see them differently.
This is totally a joke. Right?
Yes. Though, really, how would I know?
197: Not when we're having a discussion about standards of beauty in the media, it doesn't.
what on earth does 192 mean? it just doesn't scan.
197: And not when you call women your dogs.
I googled for its mate, but its quite disappointing.
GEOGRAPHIE D'UN HOMME
Entre 15 et 70 ans un homme est comme les Etats Unis : gouverné par un gland.
Someone needs to translate 196. Because what you can gather without knowing French is already pretty damn good.
First, I had somehow never realized that 33 was considered "old" in terms of physical beauty. In terms of no-longer-carefree and too many responsibilities to be fun anymore, sure. And as far as athletic performance, dear god, yes, old. But as far as looking purty, 33 is old? Damn.
Also, this duct tape and corset thing. If anyone cares to explain. Out of purely academic curiosity, of course.
le climat froid décourage les visiteurs
Or you might want to go inside to get out of the cold.
This thread got confusing while I was away.
206: I only skimmed this thread, but I'm pretty sure everyone was saying the opposite.
A Note To The Laydeez
Just to clarify, this means the gents can get all the absurd plastic surgery they please, and ogged won't complain?
First, I had somehow never realized that 33 was considered "old" in terms of physical beauty.
It isn't. The point of bringing up the fact that these women are 33 is that they don't look it at all.
208:Don't be confused. I just turned a "JJ & Posh are really fucking plug-ugly now" thread " into a "let's call Bob a pig for being offended" thread.
this means the gents can get all the absurd plastic surgery they please, and ogged won't complain?
No, you ankle biter, it means that my original plan to include Nick Cage and a dude to be determined later ran up against that fact that it takes forever to find decent pictures for comparison.
212: Or you could just do push ups, old school.
you ankle biter
Are you calling me short, shorty?
Ah, I see. Thank you for clearing things up. Carry on.
It isn't. The point of bringing up the fact that these women are 33 is that they don't look it at all.
I got that part. And that generally the folks here are a bit more sane on such things than Society at Large. But there also seems to be a recognition in the thread that being over say 25 is a liability for women in the media or "high society" such that it's understandable, if regrettable, that these women would resort to desperate measures to look more youthful. It just surprised me that there'd be media pressure for such things before, say, 45 or 50. But I probably am missing the point.
Are you calling me short, shorty?
Apparently, I'm calling you Indian.
80% of the people I see are attractive, and 10% are beautiful
These numbers seem about right to me. Beautiful might be a bit higher than 10% even, but I live in an area with a very high concentration of college-aged people, an age when beauty is pretty effortless.
Or maybe I'm just a big perv. Shrug.
Apparently, I'm calling you Indian.
I think we should accept that neither of us knows the meaning of this colloquialism and move on.
Shorty.
218: I think the idea is that (some) women who consider their attractiveness the be-all and end-all of their value start correcting small imperfections when they're still young and widely considered attractive, and then as they age the effect snowballs (they keep getting more and more surgery to try to reverse the aging process) and they can end up looking weird and unnatural even at the still relatively young age of 33.
That's my impression at least. I may have missed something upthread.
80% of the people I see are attractive, and 10% are beautiful
Am I the only one who knows this at some level, but can't bring himself to actually call the 80% attractive on first impulse? I see them and think "eh" because of teh patriarchy or whatever, but then when I look again I realize that they are, in fact, perfectly attractive. I'm ashamed.
It reminds me of the weird masculinity contest I overheard some acquaintances engaging in one time. They were looking at the rosters of girls' track teams at various colleges they were considering and evaluating their attractiveness. Neither one wanted to be the first to say "She's hot."
That's my impression at least.
If you start making impressions at your age, you're going to look like a golf ball when you're 33.
It reminds me of the weird masculinity contest I overheard some acquaintances engaging in one time. They were looking at the rosters of girls' track teams at various colleges they were considering and evaluating their attractiveness. Neither one wanted to be the first to say "She's hot."
It's that damn connoisseurship again. Sometimes I hate men.
If you start making impressions at your age, you're going to look like a golf ball when you're 33.
That's a risk I'm willing to take.
I'll say it for the seventeen millionth time: evaluating people as aesthetic objects and as real people are separate activities. Lots and lots of you are very attractive as people, but unremarkable and maybe even ugly as aesthetic objects. It's not that big a deal. I would hate you either way.
Or just that what is considered 'beautiful' by fashion and media is this weird androgynous-but-for-boobs body type that flaunts wealth more than it reflects what people find attractive. I find many people attractive and beautiful but I'm not going to confuse that with fashion magazines.
A beautiful-in-the-we're-so-sorry-you-need-a-harsh-world-Cala, everyday sort of attractive, or even uncommonly attractive sort of girl isn't going to end up at that standard without plastic assistance. If that's what she thinks she needs to be beautiful because she *is* in the spotlight or she *is* surrounded by trophy wives, I can see how it would be very easy to start emulating bit by bit, something that gave her the appearance of someone trying to look much younger.
Shorter 228: look, there's looking, and there's looking to get laid.
228: That was the shirt I was wearing, you bastard. It made me look like squat, when I specifically asked the sales lady for "willowy." And I explained that at the time.
I would hate you either way.
We hate you too, ogged.
Just because you've already ordered doesn't mean you can't look at the menu, and then at the photos of the food on the menu, and unconsciously compare it to the lousy old smushed hamburger you see on people's plates, who tries and tries but can't compete with photo-shopped food.
It's not that big a deal.
Or rather, it wouldn't be that big a deal if it weren't everyone's favorite parlor game. It's the ubiquity of the thing that's the problem.
I see beautiful hamburgers all around me.
234: Your tired time is over, anyway. In the New America, we've all got an Asian fetish.
Now I want a hamburger. Fatburger for dinner!
All the pics of her since she moved to LA make her look horrible. And yes, part of it is that she's chosing godawful clothing, but a big part of it really is the tan and the awful hair and wearing way, way, way too much makeup and having lost too much weight. And I think she's probably had her nose tapered to one of those awful tiny points and her lips all fattened up too, but I haven't really looked closely enough to say that with much confidence.
YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM
OG, you're already pwned by 109, 177, and 184. Perhaps you are growing senile?
See, I just don't it, and it ain't PC or anything. I gots me umpteen Rembrandt scanned self-portraits and umpteen Sasha pics and they're beautiful. Most everybody who sees them immediately says the pictures and the couple are beautiful. I do not need to jump thro aesthetic hoops because Rembrandt is not Brad Pitt.
Are the people in the paintings pleasing because of the painter, his craft and genius? Was Rembrandt tricking us, air-brushing his own soul? The role of the artist is disillusionment, and the beauty is at least as much in the eye of the beholder as in the artist's.
And I see people who look like the Rembrandts every night mowing their lawns and sitting on their porches.
Posh has a bad photo, but the more I look at JJ, the more I like her.
I sure as fuck don't give a minute's thought to any People Magazine list.
237: In the New America, we've all got an Asian fetish.
I had banh mi last night. They were delicious. It's starting to get on my nerves how pervasive the smell of the marinade is for the next couple of days, though; not bad-smelling, just very... there.
Would getting laid make Ogged stop trolling? I'm starting to doubt it.
First, I had somehow never realized that 33 was considered "old" in terms of physical beauty
Absolutely. 33 is old. Old as dirt.
Say, how old are you Di Kotimy?
I'm only as old as I feel. So, like 79, I guess.
I knew that we were about the same age.
Do you know, this kids get off my lawn thing always reminds me of the old man in our neighborhood who had a poodle, and how he always enjoyed us kids playing on the lawn with his little dog. What a nice guy he was.
WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH B?
I'm only as old as I feel. So, like 79, I guess.
Hey, I use that line. Do you know if I'm borrowing from some comedian?
A lady is as old as the gentleman she feels.
are you for serious?@?!?
everyone has heard that line.
Oh, how did i forget to mention this?
One of the things thats hot about any modification, is that one is intentionally doing it. Especially if it is associated with being sexual. I think bleaching one's hair qualifies as such a signal.
I think bleaching one's hair starfish qualifies as such a signal.
man, those look like shrooms.
that musta been a huuuge cock before bisexion tho.
I think part of 253 is right.
There's lots of things I don't find attractive in and of themselves [I'm thinking of clothing and hairstyle here rather than surgery] but which become attractive because of the signals the person is sending through choosing them.
Also, re: 92
I read a UK TV reviewer recently arguing strongly for that. They were pointing out that her various assistants and other people in the show were actually actors and that the TV persona was clearly a cleverly crafted and fairly comic 'riff' on a certain kind of celebrity persona. Albeit a comic riff that included and hyper-exaggerated aspects of the real person and real lifestyle.
Would getting laid make Ogged stop trolling? I'm starting to doubt it.
You volunteering?
205 - Someone needs to translate 196. Because what you can gather without knowing French is already pretty damn good.
Female geography
Between 18 and 20 a woman is like Africa - half wild, naturally beautiful, and full of unexplored but definitely fertile areas.
Between 21 and 30 a woman is like America - fully developed and open to commerce, especially to those with a bit of cash.
Between 31 and 35, like India: sensual, relaxed, in full bloom, convinced of her own beauty.
Between 36 and 40, like France: delightfully mature and still a pleasant destination.
Between 41 and 50, like Yugoslavia: having lost the war, the errors of her past still haunt her, and major reconstruction efforts are needed.
Between 51 and 60, like Russia: over-extended, with ungovernable borders and a cold climate which discourages visitors.
Between 61 and 70, like Mongolia: a glorious history of conquest, but, alas, no future.
After 70, like Afghanistan: everyone knows where she is, but no one wants to go there any more...
You missed the other parts:
Between 0-5 a woman is like the Falkland Islands - small and hard to get to.
Between 6-10 a woman is like Madagascar - unspoiled and fragile.
Between 11-17 a woman is like Thailand - mysterious and exotic, with a hint of danger.
[ insert 260 ]
After 110 a woman is like Antartica - cold, barren, but shared equally by all.
Excuse me while I bleach my keyboard.
258: Being unaware that Posh Spice had a TV show, I was 100% convinced that your comment was referring to Anna Nicole Smith.
204: LOL
yoyo is urbane and witty?
260: "knows where *it* is," I was reading, for the 70-plus bracket.
First, I had somehow never realized that 33 was considered "old" in terms of physical beauty.
Jeez, I hope not. I'm going to be 32 in a month.
Speaking of birthdays, Teo, what are you planning to do this September 29th?
I hadn't really thought about it. Looks like it's a Saturday, which would make celebrating easier than usual. You?
It is a Saturday, yes. Sadly, I will probably be working that night. You, however, should be sure to make plans. I know that you feel kind of isolated being back home in New Mexico, so make sure to plan something fun.
Teofilo:
Where in New Mexico are you?
NPR did a great piece on how many people thought New Mexico was outside the US.
My gf's family is from Hobbes, NM.
Albuquerque.
New Mexico Magazine has a feature called "One of Our Fifty Is Missing" that describes instances of people not realizing NM is a state. There are always plenty.
I'm so depressed now to find out I'm Yugoslavian. Assassinate.Me.Now.
So while standards shift -- now it's androids with frankenboobs, in medieval times we are told it was voluptuous curves -- it's never going to be something common to most people or most bodies.
If you were a skinny, stumpylegged, potbellied blonde in Northern Europe in the 15th century, you were in luck. If not, tough titty. According to Margaret Scott, "Descriptions of ideal women ... tend to follow a somewhat monotonous pattern. ... blonde with well-spaced grey eyes ... little ears and 'grosette' mouth, a white, round bosom, long thin arms, long fingers, long thin body, low hips, hollow back, round soft stomach, thin legs and little feet. ... An ugly woman is described as being as fat and round as an apple and as dark as an owl [by poet EustacheDeschamps]."
