You know what I cannot get enough of? Style section columns about adults who are as selfish as children. They could fill the Times with those stories and a double issue for Christmas, and it would never be enough. They could fill every post of every blog every day, and it would never be enough.
The lack of suspense was killing e.
Wow, that hit close to home.
There's a reason why we say no to affairs with handsome older still-married men with kids. It's too difficult. The guy, no matter how seemingly well-adjusted, is basically a walking, seething, pus-spewing open wound. Luckily for the interloping chick, walking open wounds sure dig marathon bouts of incredibly hot and perverted sex, especially since, for the first time in howevermany years, he spends half his week childfree.
So you stay daddy's dirty little secret for six months. Finally, you meet the kids and fantasize that everything is stupendous. The kids are WILD about you! You're younger and prettier and nicer and smarter and more fun than mommy! You're a gift from heaven! Partying with the kids is so so so great, and they love you so so so much!
But, like boyfriends, kids demand time with you that they can't really handle. They like you, so they want you around all the time. But when you're around all the time, they now have to deal with confusing questions like, "Do you and daddy do what the dinosaurs in my book do?" and "Are you our stepmommy yet?" and "Why don't you like it when I sit on your lap during dinner?" When they figure out that you're really there to entertain Daddy, they'll be cross.
But not as cross as Daddy when he hears them say, for the first time, "We wish AWB was our real parent and you were her boyfriend and she could send you away at night!" Because they're going through a divorce, too, and they're mad and upset and a little psycho about it, which they have the right to be.
God bless her for getting through all that. It's shitty and stressful, and had Max's kids been a few years older, I think it would have been a lot easier. They were four and six when I met them.
1 - Oh, come on. The NYT isn't only full of articles about adults who act like children. It also has articles on the importance of winterizing the pool at your second home.
Pool maintenance is important -- it can make the difference between an afternoon of relaxation and a bad case of cholera.
The guy, no matter how seemingly well-adjusted, is basically a walking, seething, pus-spewing open wound.
You should write romance novels.
Was that a happy ending, or did she fall asleep and dream it?
All adults are as selfish as children much, if not most, of the time.
Adults are more selfish -- they don't just want what they want, they want the other person to read their mind, too.
I'm not touchy, though. "Walking, seething, pus-spewing open wound" describes me fairly well.
I think ogged should re-enact & blog about The Year of Yes.
ot: I just found at that United for Peace & Justice (the big antiwar organizing group that's much less embarrassing than ANSWER) is planning marches in Boston, Chicago, LA, New Orleans, New York, Philly, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle & two locations T.B.D. on October 27th. (Odd that D.C. isn't in there). Meetups, anyone?
The thought of ogged playing the YoY game makes me sad. Because, sure, he'll go out with all these women, but he's just leading them on; he still thinks they're too fat or whatever.
I guess that's what bothers me about the idea behind this book. She may have eventually "found" "love" by saying yes to someone she was probably already pretty attracted to, but she also went out with a lot of people there was no way she was going to go on to date. I would hate to realize my invitation to go out with someone was accepted only because of a rule. Accepting an invitation means you actually feel you might have a good time and want to do it again, right?
I kinda think that the point of blogs and personal essays is to talk about the ugly stuff that we don't admit to: wanting to kill our children, being envious of one's stepkids, acting like a stalker, whatever. Stories about people behaving admirably and doing exactly the right thing and everything turns out just the way it should are godawful.
14: Did you read the book? At least the way she presents it, it isn't really like that. The bit I remember and liked best was where the crazy drunk guy on her block asks her to go dancing with him, and she does, and they have a great time, and from then on she and he are kinda friends. It's quite sweet.
16: No, I haven't, and maybe I should. I realized I am still kind of paranoid about the "Yes means no" problem because of this.
Ick, that's awful. No, there's not that sort of thing in the book as I recall. In a couple cases, she keeps dating the guy for a while, and in some cases she doesn't, but she doesn't act like an asshole, I don't think.
Of course, she's the narrator, so.
There's no way a guy could do the Year of Yes thing. Women just don't ask guys out enough.
I see now that the original YoY thread covered all my gender-differentiation concerns.
I can loan you the YoY book, AWB. Just remind me.
If TBA turns out to = Cleveland, I would be happy to meet Unfoggers here. If not, Chicago is my preferred destination.
I kinda think that the point of blogs and personal essays is to talk about the ugly stuff that we don't admit to: wanting to kill our children
Whoa, apparently they're letting Andrea Yates have internet access.
Reading the article, I wonder how much of the bad reaction of the stepchildren was due to the fact that it was as near as I can tell a complete surprise that daddy's friend was a) moving in and b) daddy's new girlfriend.
I can't believe ogged actually read that book.
I agree with 24. "Never" seems to me to have been totally the wrong response, but as the author points out, she was pretty young herself.
I can see how the dad in that situation was hoping that the kids would react better to it if it seemed organic, or just to happen gradually over time. (And I thought she just moved to an apartment nearby? It wasn't clear.) Like, if the kids get a chance to say, "We want her around more; we like her," then it's not Dad saying, "Like it or hate it, she's going to be around all the time."
I dunno. I wonder what the dad's reaction to all this blanket-hating was. I often got the sense from Max that he wasn't happy when the kids were wild about me, because he felt underappreciated at a sensitive time, but he wasn't happy when they were less fond of me either, because they were failing to respect his right to have a relationship. This is because kids don't give a shit about your right to a relationship. The girlfriend only matters if she makes them happy, or makes Dad nicer.
27: Kids crave an authoritarian dad who lays down the law. Asking your kids to both do what you want and like it is the rankest totalitarianism.
OT: My male roommate, who has never given oral sex to a guy, has just averred that he could undoubtedly give excellent fellatio. His female friend who's over here hanging out, and who has never given oral sex to a girl, has stated with certainty that she could give excellent cunnilingus. I, for one, am skeptical of these claims, but the house seems lacking in spirit when it comes to empiricism, alack.
It's Saturday night, Mineshaft, and we need your input.
Hasn't anyone here ever gone through a divorce when they were a kid and had to deal with a new step-parent? This article seems totally natural to me. Your fondest fantasy when you're a kid is that *your parents will get back together*. Even failing that, the worst possible situation is that a new adult stranger will come in and assert parental intimacy and rights over you. Divorce generally sucks for kids, was my experience. (Natural exceptions made for horribly abusive spouses -- but I suspect those are a small minority of divorce cases, and certainly doesn't describe either of my parents).
29: It's bisexual orgy time. Don't ask us to theorize about it, just report back when you do it.
31: I said the house seems lacking in spirit when it comes to empiricism.
Are you busy right now?
I have a gay friend who avers quite often that he would be great at giving head to a woman because he's gay, so he could, like, concentrate and stuff.
I have countered that it's not hot to get head from someone who's not turned on by doing so. Thoughts?
Your fondest fantasy when you're a kid is that *your parents will get back together*.
Not for me. (And no, neither of my parents was abusive in the slightest.) I was pretty okay with my parents getting divorced; hell, I didn't want my parents living too close to one another, 'cause I enjoyed flying back and forth between them.
29: I can't remember who said that straight chicks suck at cunnilingus, but I think it was here on this blog.
32: I'm orgy-positive, but it's too late to drive down to Charlottesville. We'll have to wait for DCon.
33: that's so absurd. It's all about enthusiasm. Passion produces the best sort of focus. You have to get lost in what you're doing, any sort of "eww" would ruin things.
34: yeah, I guess we always overgeneralize from our own experiences.
29 - Empiricism! In the name of science! If Catherine and I can research these vital issues, so can you.
I was in college when my parents divorced. It's a pretty different situation from a little kid, & was so bound up with my family's specific forms of crazy that I don't know how much I can generalize...in general, the "meet your new mommy!" element is absent, and it's probably easier overall. But the combination of a parent trying to run like hell away from all manifestations of the other, & trying to prove loyalty & commitment to the stepparent, can create its own set of problems. And there's a higher likelihood that you'll never be close.
High-school age kids would be the worst of both words, I'd imagine.
32: I'm orgy-positive, but it's too late to drive down to Charlottesville. We'll have to wait for DCon.
It's a deal.
29 - Empiricism! In the name of science! If Catherine and I can research these vital issues, so can you.
Okay, Becks. I'll do my best to convince my roommate to suck my cock—for science, of course. Unfortunately, he's just left for a dance party, so this experiment will have to wait.
40 - Woo! And we all know you can make videos now so put it up on the internet and we'll all offer a critique for him.
Unfogged: here to help.
I can't believe I missed that thread.
Unfortunately, he's just left for a dance party, so this experiment will have to wait.
Invite him (and his female friend) to UnfoggeDCon. Now there's a venue for empirical research.
"We're from the Mineshaft and we're here to help."
35: No, I was 8 and a half or 9 at the time. I'd had a scare a couple of years earlier, when I was scared that my parents were going to get divorced, but by the time it actually happened it really didn't bother me.
"Hey, guys. This is my roommate Jon and his friend Jennifer. They'll be performing the oral sex tonight. Please be sure to turn in your surveys before leaving. Labs. LABS!!! Stop sucking cocks. Save some for science."
So, in the context of UnfoggedCon, it is possible for two people to have dozens of partners and the rest to have only one. That would be sad, of course, but within a limited population, you can see how it works.
48: Yeah, great, teo. Now I'm supposed to show up with head for everyone. Fuck.
Everyone has to bring something, Stan. At least you didn't get stuck with the expensive booze.
Yeah, good point. Now I feel bad for derailing the developing divorce thread.
OT:
Incompetent Attorney/Fresh Pepper is back.
I consider myself lucky that when my parents were divorced, I was old enough (16) that I wasn't really expected to develop a parental relationship with my mom's new boyfriend-then-husband. We're cordial enough, but that aspect of it just didn't exist, and I can't really see how it would have developed.
At the other end of the scale, a couple I know separated (so far permanently) when their kid was ~4 months old.
In the name of science, I should get a girlfriend and observe the effects on my children. OTOH, in the interest of not getting shot by my wife, maybe science isn't everything.
How do you like your second amendment now, horndog?
I support the 2nd Amendment...cause I'm a feminist.
OT: My male roommate, who has never given oral sex to a guy, has just averred that he could undoubtedly give excellent fellatio.
I was recently party to a long conversation about eating penises.
What, if anything, was concluded in said conversation?
Not all conversations are about reaching conclusions.
I guess that should be obvious to any regular reader of Unfogged.
That ben sucks cock was a foregone conclusion.
I really doubt I'd be any good at fellatio: enthusiasm counts, and I'm a mediocre actor. On the other hand, if the money is right, my enthusiasm is easily bought. If I could somehow transfer the concept of a sabbatical in SE Asia into the form of an unwanted cock, I just might be able to produce something.
Seems like a sabbatical in SE Asia could easily involve one or more unwanted cocks.
Keep the conversation up, fellas, this is useful.
Teo please. Do you really need to ask?
A fellatio in every pot. A cunnilingus in every garage.
How many fellatios can I get? I've been trying for years.
(I have been using a library that gave me much grief for mysterious reasons and the fix turned out to be extremely dumb, but it took me foooorever to hit on it.)
There are more things in heaven and earth (fellatio), than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I was recently in San Francisco and walked past a man in a car who seemed to be looking at me. 5 minutes and two blocks later, he came walking up from behind me and asked if he could give me a ride home.
Uhhhh. No.Oh. Well you're really cute. Can I at least give you a blowjob?
Uhhhh. No.
You sure? Come on, get in my car, I'll give you a ride somewhere.
Hey look it's a green light I'm walking across the street goodbye.
Just a curiosity, I guess. He was quite nice about the whole thing, not threatening in the least. I appreciated the directness. But does he really expect me to get in his car after I've turned down a blowjob? Like, maybe we can talk it out and find common ground, we'll just both masturbate? Does this plan ever work?
I'm in my early twenties but I look about 17.
And then it turned out to be your local Republican state senator...
AWB (3) and Josh (34) have articulated my anxiety and my hope in this whole divorce business very nicely. Given that I've still barely just formulated any intention of dating again, I very definitely have no intentions of introducing Rory to any boyfriends anytime soon. But the ex has been dating since just a few months after I filed, and he negotiated the parenting agreement to specifically make sure he wouldn't be prohibited from having the gf sleep over when he has Rory. I hate the thought of her being introduced to her brand new step-mommy the minute the ink is dry -- I hate the thought that she'll probably be put under at least a little pressure to like this chick. And, even though I keep reminding myself that I have no reason to dislike the gf -- her big sin is bad taste, as far as I know -- I still kind of hate the idea that Rory could wind up liking her.
My favorite line from a man insisting on offering a blowjob: 'if I was a woman you'd say yes.'
On a completely unrelated subject, really, is anyone free for breakfast or lunch in London tomorrow? Drop me a line: handle at gmail dot com.
Charley, I'm not in London, but if you're traveling, you may not have seen the kudos directed at you yesterday.
i didn't see them yesterday either, but charley: thank you.
my mother thanks you, my father thanks you, the magna carta thanks you, and the poor forlorn constitution of the united states thanks you.
so shines a good deed in a naughty world.
I didn't see them, Witt, but thanks, and thanks to everyone. I wish this was a bigger deal than it is. We've got a damn long way to go before JE needs to rethink his cynicism.
As I noted to will by email, Chief Justice Roberts was a great help (without intending it, I'm sure) lecturing the day before on the important role lawyers play as guardians of liberty.
Today, though, belongs to Senator Baucus -- who is not on the holiday card list of some folks here, I'm sure, who is in Baghdad saying some of the right things.
Good work Charley! You're a fellow traveler in my book.
To return this thread to seriousness for a minute and to get back to what AWB said (without talking about the specifics of divorced people), is there anyone out there who isn't in some way wounded. I mean maybe tehre are these perfectly healthy people out there, and if I've met any of them, they seem to be spectacularly lacking in compassion.
I'm young yet and probably naive. Of course one needs to protect oneself, and there are a whole bunch of different scenarios one should probably avoid, but if perfect health (emotional or otherwise) is a necessary criterion in a potential mate (or even in friends*), then I am well and truly screwed. I'd like to have a little hope. I not ready to turn into Emerson just yet.
*Not a dig at AWB, who I know does heroic service to trans friends who are really suffering and have plenty of issues to work through.
It's probably too early for us walking, seething, pus-spewing open wounds to come out and have support groups and pride parades.
BG, I think there are people out there who insist on something that at least looks like perfect health. Maybe there's play-acting going on there, I'm not sure. Illness, or unwellness, is pathologized in our society (ha).
But for the rest, no. The walking wounded are in the majority -- but this is actually a horrid term. It doesn't even take special circumstances to become a member of that tribe: just growing older will suffice. It's normal.
We all come with conditions. As far as I'm concerned, the task is just in tending to whatever one's issues (ew, Issues), psychological and/or physical, are. That constitutes health. You don't want relationships with people who don't get all of that anyway.
Glad it worked out for her, but "I regarded them as beings to be wooed with all my strength made me just cringe. The kids' world was falling apart, and her concern was winning their love? I'm sure she was mocking herself, but still.
In actual orgies, male bisexuality is usually frowned on, often to the point of paranoid fear. But female bisexuality is strongly encouraged.
Clearly a venue for possible square-freaking.
And probably depends on the particular orgy venue. One would assume that there must be local ground-rules.
Actual orgies of a particular sort, I expect.
But seriously on 87, I think the expectation of perfect 'health' is something that comes up in youth -- once people get out of their twenties or so, they start realizing that everyone has a history, and everyone's got issues.
You're right, BG, all of us are compilations of traumas and our reactions to them, and I didn't mean to suggest that one shouldn't date someone with "issues." I guess I now wonder if there wasn't some wisdom to all the advice I got not to date someone who was particularly and recently traumatized by his wife cheating on him. As much as I think Max cared for me, I was also little more than a symbol to him of youth, health, strength, and intelligence, and our relationship couldn't handle the possibility that I, too, would need to sometimes feel able to need something. Our relationship was so much about me reassuring him of his worthiness that my occasional need to feel reassured of mine was seen by him as a sort of breach of contract.
It's true that we all have needs, but I feel I have to take special care not to fall into relationships in which I'm always the strong one for someone else. In a relationship with a traumatized person with traumatized kids, it's easy to feel that his problems are the only ones that are real or that matter.
In my brief stint in therapy, I was trying to come to grips with the fact that it's very hard for me to ask other people for things, especially affection. As I was trying to trace back how that comes from my childhood and upbringing, my therapist kept saying, "You're so strong! You've dealt with all this and you're so strong!" I kept saying, but isn't that the problem? That my "masculine" self-sufficiency is overvalued in a sexist culture that praises Steve McQueen (and me) for refusing to react to insult or pain? I have a tendency to be drawn toward people who are needy and wounded, which would be fine if I weren't also drawn toward people who don't think I have a right to be needy or wounded on occasion.
I hear what you're saying AWB. I would get very torn between what seemed obvious - that the needs of the kids have to come first, because they are defenseless - and wondering if I'd gotten myself into this situation as a way of avoiding the complexities of what my life would have been in my 20s.
Yeah, Penny, I think we tend to feel that we meet the people we meet by chance or magical happenstance, when really everyone we choose to get involved with is attractive to us because of whatever issues we're dealing with or avoiding dealing with.
Of course, being reminded of this while dating someone is really annoying. I got weekly calls from my mom about how creeped out she and my dad were that I was dating someone old enough to be my father, and that clearly I had "daddy issues." I actually don't think this is true, then or now, but clearly dating someone 19 years older than me was a way to avoid a certain kind of intimacy.
when really everyone we choose to get involved with is attractive to us because of whatever issues we're dealing with or avoiding dealing with.
This is true, but for "because of" I'd substitute "in light of," or simply "given."
I seem to seriously resist the notion that relationships are always already alternative therapy. Sometimes you're faced with something that's just *other*. But okay.
Your point is a good one, BG. We have all been wounded in one way or another. It's what we do with our woundedness that make the difference.
I'm awfully familiar myself with the type AWB describes -- the walking wounded who go through life feeling everyone else needs to compensate for and tend to their wounds. Those who define themselves by their woundedness and feel a huge sense of entitlement as a result.
At the other end of the spectrum -- the type I have to work hard not to be -- are those who, rather than define themselves by their woundedness, go to great lengths to deny their woundedness, focusing instead on healing all the walking wounded around them. And working very hard to deny that they are in need of a little healing themselves.
Some healthy place in the middle are those who have learned to be comfortable with their own woundedness, who have developed a special sort of empthy for others that comes from understanding and accepting one's own pain, who allow themselves to be vulnerable enough to accept the healing nurture of others. These would probably be the best sort to get involved with, I should think.
The problem isn't wounds per se, it's people in that acting-out stage where they're flailing around in response to some fresh blow they've suffered. Good to avoid those types. They don't have clarity about what *they* want, it's all about how to tranquilize the pain from whatever the last hit was.