2 - I wrote the post late last night and only posted it now. Shut up. Also: bite me.
Bringing in any sort of sextoy or prop unannounced would cause me to say "Whoa, hold on, let's discuss what's going on here." Not a deal-breaker but a deal-postponer.
I have to say, I don't think the scenario is the most realistic: if you're already "hot and heavy," there's very little new information that will dissuade you, but if you're at dinner, and things are going Really Well and you think there might be You Know, I can imagine a lot of things making someone reconsider.
Other-than-expected genitalia would probably pause things.
Yeah, I'm not coming up with much in the way of realistic possibilities. Genitalia belonging to a gender other than that announced? Infectious-looking sores?
Yeah, but how would you get hot&heavy without knowing that.
Just about any sort of unexpected dentata.
Like if a mouse scurried from her hoohaw, LB.
5 - Yes, I think in reality it's going to take unexpected genitalia or a contagious looking rash. But I think it's an interesting topic because, in more neurotic moments (especially when younger), there's a feeling that someone would literally call things off because you have a pimple on your back or haven't shaved or your ass isn't perfect. When, in reality, it takes a lot more than that to bring things to a halt.
13, well that might be true if the person is mainly having sex with you in order to get material for anecdotes. Which happens in high school.
Hrm. A friend once described having unexpectedly encountered a foreign object in a date's vagina -- a small hard-plastic object which he couldn't identify, but sounded to me like maybe a cap to something. I don't think there was a second encounter.
Yeah, maybe the better question is not what would be a dealbreaker in the moment, but what would cause you not to go there with that person again.
By saying it's hot and heavy you've already ruled out a lot. Basically, anything that causes it not to feel hot enough.
15: really, now, they had never heard of a diaphragm? I know they're incredibly old-fashioned now, but they do exist.
a small hard-plastic object which he couldn't identify
"Hey, babe, do you know..."
OK, how instead of things being "hot and heavy" you're making out but you see things proceeding towards sex.
I'm also interested in Blume's question in 16 (OK in the moment but knowing you'd never go back for more). I almost included that in my original post.
Like if a mouse scurried from her hoohaw, LB.
Hey!
19: Right, but they aren't small or hard plastic -- they're a couple of inches across and soft latex.
Bave has an open mind.
See, if I were attracted to the person enough to get hot and heavy with them, presumably they'd still be attractive once the pants came off. And while the specific parts down there are enjoyable, they're not the only thing about a person, and who knows? Maybe dealing with an unexpected set of parts would have its own rewards. So I think, honestly, a pause for adjustment, but then probably right back to business.
23: Eh, the keeper, a cervical cap. Gentlemen do not comment adversely on the contents of ladies' vaginas.
A Coke bottle is not a foreign object. Coke is domestic. A Heineken bottle would be a foreign object.
/ freshman year of college.
Well that might be true if the person is mainly having sex with you in order to get material for anecdotes. Which happens in high school Unfoggedville .
Definite dealbreaker no matter how hot and heavy we are: someone getting mean without prior permission and acknowledgment.
O-ho, I have a dealbreaker. Way back in ancient times, when I was having sex, I met a young woman in a class. We struck it off, even had a dinner date (rare IME in college), went to her house one night. Things were moving right along when she said she wanted to go to the bathroom. I must've looked at her quizzically because she clarified that she wanted to take some pills. My thirst for knowledge not yet slaked, she paused and then asked whether it was cool by me if she popped a few Valium and maybe passed out during sex. It was, in fact, not cool by me, and it was moreover a dealbreaker—we settled on a dissatisfying discussion about Mark Rothko and I went home. Later, she sort of clarified that this was just a kink (but it didn't matter because she started dating the professor of the class).
25: This was an ungentlemanly conversation, but he was quite clear and detailed because he was mystified. Again, hard plastic, which rules out most things you'd expect, and quite small, like nickel-sized.
29: Menstrual cups can be worn during sex, right? They advertise that feature as one of their selling points.
Finding their husband waiting in the bedroom?
Indeed. Astonishingly inconsiderate of her to have contemplated going ahead with it without clearing it with you first, too -- where does that leave you, calling 911 and explaining that she was conscious when you started have sex with her?
Would you not see someone again if they're a bad lover?
Unannounced renegotiation of the implicit terms of an encounter: i.e. the introduction of acts, implements, or additional participants without notification or agreement.
Or to be shorter: crazy people with control issues.
Now picturing Smasher sitting in class looking at the professor and thinking that not merely does he go right ahead and screw his students, but he doesn't mind them passing out on him in the act. Very weird.
31: Again, not hard plastic. Almost anything that there's a good reason to insert vaginally is going to be soft rubber or soft plastic. I don't think anyone's going to figure it out, because I don't have the first hand knowledge to confirm a right answer, but I can't think of any hard plastic object about the size of a nickel that one would be unsurprised to encounter vaginally.
37: A misplaced Dalkon shield, but I'd be appalled to encounter such a thing these days.
28 is not only astonishingly offputting, but reveals a breathtaking callousness about the danger to which she was exposing her partner (doubt about consent, potential loss of self-respect, fear of sexual-assult charges). I wouldn't even want to be friends with a person who was that oblivious to the impact of her actions.
Mentioning a previously undisclosed-to-me husband.
Regarding Blume's comment, some indication that she is racist or appears overly clingy.
If she mentions how much she wants a baby and is actively encouraging unprotected sex.
Huh. About the right size, and hard, but isn't just falling out of your cervix a really unlikely mode of failure for an IUD? (And of course the current ones I'm aware of are all t-shaped.)
Maybe it was some sort of charm or amulet inserted in the hope of encouraging pregnancy or to ward off demons.
I suspect that some men/boys would not completely understand what a Nuva ring is.
Finding a clear plastic ring might be disconcerting to those who do not know it is a nuva ring.
Still too big, and not hard.
On the subject of the thread, this seems relevant.
Did he take it out and examine it? If so, there should be more details known. If not, how did he know if was plastic? It could have just been a jolly rancher or something like that.
44: no one has ever really asked "Is it in yet?", have they? I don't understand the circumstances in which that question could be posed, other than in a joke.
Drawing blood.
Expulsion via the cervix is the typical method of IUD failure these days, but that doesn't sound like the right size/shape.
I agree with Witt in #39, but isn't that just a form of crazy?
44:Still too big, and not hard.
Yeah, I suppose that could be a deal breaker.
I think I answered this question before, and LB's—funny—response was the viking kittens link. I can't find it though.
LB has some very specific information, here...
48: Indications of crazy are the major dealbreakers this late in the game.
Actually, a guy repeatedly offering progress reports on his firmness was a deal breaker. So annoyingly dorky.
46: The natural range of human variation is wide, Brock. Given sufficiently disparate genitalia, and perhaps incomplete erection, the sensory distinction between preliminary frottage and penetration can be small.
45: He did remove it and look at it (apparently without her noticing). The additional details didn't help me any -- a squat cylinder, maybe 1-2 cm in diameter, less than one cm tall, with a smaller cylindrical protrusion on one of the flat faces. It sounded like a cap for a test-tube or something to me -- the smaller cylinder fits inside the tube, and the larger one forms a lip to seal it. But he wasn't convinced.
I wouldn't even want to be friends with a person who was that oblivious to the impact of her actions.
No kidding. No one should have to endure an hour's worth of droning on about Rothko.
I don't know. The girl had problems, and I was inexperienced and massively unprepared to deal with them. She was a cutter, which she revealed to me then (it would have been difficult not to notice). I was only dimly aware of the phenomenon at all but I decided at the moment that it was something to be treated with sympathy and understanding (even if I had none of the latter to give) and not apprehension. With the pills/avoidance, I suppose I felt all those doubts about consent &c. but mentally it occurred to me as a blaring "THIS NOW NOT AWESOME".
Discovering that your potential partner has the same level of finesse in foreplay that your high school significant other did could be a turn-off, maybe enough to be a deal breaker. Especially when you're decidedly not in high school anymore.
He did remove it and look at it (apparently without her noticing).
!
You know, wanting to pass out during sex is a whole new fetish for me. I had never heard of that one at all.
Unexpected tentacles, I tend to regard with suspicion.
You know, wanting to pass out during sex is a whole new fetish for me. I had never heard of that one at all.
It was in a Law & Order episode.
Yeah, maybe the better question is not what would be a dealbreaker in the moment, but what would cause you not to go there with that person again.
Tattoos. They've got predictable and tiresome. Also, more than one cat (Two, I'll let slide. Four? Not so much)
The two major stories on this thread are great. They are just the right amount weird and confessional.
My friend says it's not a fetish and that this was just an embarrassed excuse. It's avoidance, not wanting to have sex but not being good at saying no or not relating well to men except through sex.
61: What I miss for not watching L&O!
Frankly, I'm impressed that Smasher stayed and discussed Rothko. I think I'd have said, "Sure, fine, I love that stuff," and then taken off while she was in the bathroom.
My friend says it's not a fetish and that this was just an embarrassed excuse. It's avoidance, not wanting to have sex but not being good at saying no or not relating well to men except through sex.
I don't see why it can't be an authentic kink. Why not?
64: Oh, wow. Feeling socially obligated to go through with it, but unable to be there for the process? If that was what was going on, poor thing and I hope she got some help. (Not that she should have inflicted it on you, but still, man, that must have sucked for her.)
In the latter category of "reasons not to go back": A pet snake, being treated with mystical/totemic reverence.
Are those two separate criteria, or are you worried about people worshiping their pet snakes?
BMEzine-esque body modifications: subcutaneous stainless steel implants, branding, carved-and-cauterized skin art, labia sagging under the weight of metal rings and other things.
Call me old-fashioned.
That's one reason; the snake was the thing being worshipped.
I was grateful for the opportunity to immediately reset and return to familiar (if tediously pedestrian) territory. I really did want to leave, but I felt sympathy and guilt and also a nagging feeling that I had proven myself sexually meek. If she had been supportive and offered that we just have some vanilla sex, I think these feelings would have been awfully compounded, especially because I'm not sure what I would have done. So I felt validated about thinking that this was really, really weird by the fact that we went from that to terrifically awkward conversation.
At the risk of sounding like myself, I have to say that most of these disqualifiers can't really be complete surprises; the sweet, down-to-earth Chem major just isn't going to have stainless steel implants. And if you're with someone who might, I don't see that you get to wuss out and run away. You made your choice!
69: Me, too. I think that's standard.
74: You're a better man than me, Gunga Smasher.
Game on dealbreaker: somebody whose ass is insufficiently wiped.
I've been "playfully" bitten during fellatio. You've got to really know what you're doing if you're going to try that. As it was: dealbreaker.
75: Isn't the idea that they're overwhelmingly likely not to be surprises, meaning that if they really, genuinely are you've got an excuse for flight? (You can do all sorts of math on how perceptive you're expected to be, but there has to be a point where real false advertising comes into play.)
78: Like, you got up and left? Man, how hard did she bite?
75: I have heard that people can be surprising. Or was this thread about something else?
Regarding the two cat limit, is that something that will have to change as we get older?
Single women acquire cats as they age. If you find yourself dating again in your 60s, won't you necessarily have to learn to love more pets?
80: Didn't immediately get up and leave, but there was enough pain that it quickly became clear that going forward was pointless. She bit pretty hard.
a squat cylinder, maybe 1-2 cm in diameter, less than one cm tall, with a smaller cylindrical protrusion on one of the flat faces
Maybe it was a Screw Spy Cam with Sound.
Also, what if you have one cat, but she turns out to be a slut, and then you have four cats?
83: If she's 60, she should be able to afford a couch for the cats.
86: sensible people give away the kittens (or drown them). You don't just keep them all.
He did remove it and look at it (apparently without her noticing).
Was that the same girl Armsmasher was with?
86: Try sending her to convent school.
86: What Brock said. A woman who can't find a burlap sack and a river is probably not the woman for me.
If you find yourself dating again in your 60s, won't you necessarily have to learn to love more pets?
At a certain point a single person should start deaccessioning the cats, to avoid the dying alone and being eaten by pets thing.
58, 89: To be precise as to the story I was told, he felt it during sex, and it worked its way out and he brushed it off the bed -- she didn't comment and he was too embarrassed to say anything. Subsequently, he picked it up off the floor and got a look at it, I believe while she was sleeping.
he felt it during sex, and it worked its way out and he brushed it off the bed
OMG THAT WAS A MEDICAL DEVICE I BET SHE'S PROBABLY DEAD NOW!!!
Re. cats, you people are all mean. Some people just like cats.
93: At least it wasn't a class ring.
Single women acquire cats as they age.
What a strange thing. Is it kind of like menopause?
deaccessioning the cats
Did I tell you that you're my blog crush, mcmc?
the one episode i've seen of Sex in the City featured a guy who turned on the porn (and watched it) as they begin to get freaky.
And 77 seconded.
Yeah, reminding me of my children is a definite boner-killer. Also, a baby crowning.
I found my story, starting here, although it takes me 70, 79, 84, 95, 110, and 163 to fully tell it.
96: As near as I can tell. It's definitely something to look out for.
You know, wanting to pass out during sex is a whole new fetish for me.
You don't remember Stephen Milligan?
dealbreaker in the moment: aggressive/stupid porny talk, heavily modified parts (a la modern primitives), any sort of scat kink, and the ones already mentioned (crazy, mean, contagious)
possibly requiring immediate renegotiations: freaky big parts, undisclosed non-scat kinks
likely dealbreakers for round 2: porny talk that didn't reach dealbreaker threshold on round 1, squeaky-clean shaved parts (likely, but not absolutely), crying, elaborate kinks, Republicanism
Also, what if you have one cat, but she turns out to be a slut
They're all sluts.
OK, what about dressing animals in clothes? To how many excess cats is a cat in a knitted hat equivalent? I should note that I've never actually encountered an animal dresser, so maybe they're not problematic at all.
I once split up with someone for a combination of i) hygiene reasons [her flat was bug infested and she could have showered more often] and ii) a variation of 'smasher's 28 [she just sort of lay there mummy-like and that seemed to be her 'thing'].
She was ridiculously cute, too. Really pretty.
The wanting to pass out might be okay, as long as she was willing to share the Valium and be okay with me passing out too. That in combination with the being a cutter part, though, violates the "no more obviously insane people" rule.
Hello from the picket lines! (I'm on strike, as some may recall...sadly, no sex has resulted, or even any sex-halted-by-dealbreakers.)
Sheerly as a cautionary tale for you fellas out there, I will relate my only deal-breaker: the time the guy (who I thought was cute and at least intelligent enough to be interesting) tried clumsily to get me liquored up so that I'd have sex with him. If he'd actually, you know, asked, I would have. Or even just made what they used to call a move. But being plied with hard liquor even when I was kind of demurring really freaked me out.
78: Ooh. Yeah, that'd definitely be a dealbreaker.
the one episode i've seen of Sex in the City featured a guy who turned on the porn (and watched it) as they begin to get freaky.
No, not dealmaker....dealbreaker.
Dressing animals in clothes is objectionable, yes. Including all those stupid dogs with bandanas on their necks and shit like that.
Frowner! How's the strike?
Cerebrocrat, I have to speak out in defense of people who cry a bit during/after sex. Some folks just *do* that when they're having intense emotions.
108: How else are you supposed to get them to pass out if you're not into pills?
103: Funnily, although I don't actually like modifications for themselves, I do tend to like people who have a perverse desire to render themselves genuinely unattractive. Facial tattoos, really impossibly ugly clothes, genuine surliness--it doesn't count if it's just "ooh, look at me, I have Elvis Costello glasses and I'm sarky and I have a lip ring".
In college I knew a woman who would sort of freeze up (become immobile, make no noise, hold her breath) during sex because she did indeed feel obliged to put out but couldn't actually handle doing so. In general, the men in question didn't pay much attention.
defense of people who cry a bit during/after sex
Yeah, quit picking on Tim.
in defense of people who cry a bit during/after sex. Some folks just *do*
Those folks, I'd imagine, are far more likely to be women. But actually, I take your point. I was thinking of the kind of crying that would fall under the "crazy" category of dealbreakers.
108: You hadn't said that the strike was actually on, had you? In any case, best of luck and, you know, solidarity.
I've actually got a similar story -- not a guy trying to get me liquored up, but a kind of bizarre seduction routine that seemed to assume that heavy persuasion and a certain amount of deceptiveness was necessary. Given that I wanted to, and that being straightforward seemed like it would have put him off, I played dumb and got seduced. But it was a deal-killer for coming back for a second time.
re: 114
In college I knew a woman who would sort of freeze up (become immobile, make no noise, hold her breath) during sex because she did indeed feel obliged to put out but couldn't actually handle doing so.
Yeah, that was my thought re: the person in 106. However, other circumstances surrounding things suggested that was not the case.
crying that would fall under the "crazy" category
I will attest that it can be a mood-killer.
98: Yeah, maybe not a deal breaker in the moment, but a dozen years or so years down the line...
The strike? Meh. Very meh. After it's all over, I will reveal to you some of the more demoralizing aspects. I mean, we still deserve to win, but we aren't going to, and although I've met some fantastic rank-and-file people, I've also found out a couple of disturbing things about the leadership. I'm taking a two-day holiday from the picket line, in fact, because my house has deteriorated into a slum (well, I've de-deteriorated it in part) and because I'm very peeved indeed about how things are going.
None the less, I did hear about how things were before the union, and it's a damn good thing we have one. (Raises at the discretion of supervisors; in one case "Oh, clerical work is unskilled, really no one ever deserves a raise because the job really only requires a warm body".)
116: Maybe. I do it sometimes (not often, assholes), and I have a guy friend who tells me he does, too. But yes, crazy crying = not good.
97: Gosh!
105: If you run into someone capable of making a cat wear clothing, run, for s/he has a will of iron and will certainly crush you.
Menstrual cups can be worn during sex, right? They advertise that feature as one of their selling points.
They can't. Maybe the Instead kind can, but the reusable ones sit relatively low in the vagina, so your willy would have to be paper-thin and prehensile.
The first time an ex-girlfriend and I started making out, we were both so drunk that we got in some absurd argument in the middle of a kiss. I can't even remember what it was over. Maybe that wasn't a real deal breaker experience, since we did date for about a year following, but it should've been. We were both way too crazy to date each other.
Did I tell you that you're my blog crush, mcmc?
Line forms over there, buddy!
Frowner do you work for the U here? Or is that too much prying?
Crying requires some explaining:
Was I that bad???
Was this a big mistake?
Are you picking out our kid's names now?
In college I knew a woman who would sort of freeze up (become immobile, make no noise, hold her breath) during sex because she did indeed feel obliged to put out but couldn't actually handle doing so
Obviously, this is what you worry about. If crying is an indication that maybe she shouldnt be having sex with you (or others), then you need to discuss it.
124: Well it's not Cala okay? No one says that. Jesus.
Maybe the Instead kind can, but the reusable ones sit relatively low in the vagina, so your willy would have to be paper-thin and prehensile.
1 out of 2 won't cut it?
Dealbreaker: inopportune fits of giggling.
If crying is an indication that maybe she shouldnt be having sex with you (or others), then you need to discuss it.
Or, you know, wait till she goes to another room and leave by the window. Either one.
123.2: A wise observation.
Although, I'll admit that the one christmas we put little reindeer antlers on the cat, I think I ruptured something laughing. Totally worth it.
130: Let's see. Paper-thin but not prehensile won't allow your willy to curve around the cup; prehensile but not paper-thin means you won't fit. Conclusion: both conditions needed.
124: Instead, like a diaphragm (or for that matter a small sea sponge) can indeed be worn during period sex.
128: Or just "are you okay?" "I'm great, I'm just kind of emotional/overwhelmed/etc."
Another genuine one [said to me, not by me]:
"I shouldn't be doing this, I'm getting married tomorrow"
And by 131, I mean dealbreaking for that encounter, not generally for the relationship. Unless it's every time.
137: Sounds like the beginning of a fascinating conversation, though.
Yes, "are you ok?"
Not, "What the f/uck is your problem?!?!" Unless she responds to "are you ok" with "I love you!!"
will, I don't see this thread being close to the top of Google searches for "fuck".
Is 137 better or worse than "... I got married yesterday"?
Or perhaps "Oh, shit, what time is it? I'm due at the church in fifteen minutes!"
re: 139
The whole story is quite amusing and has some elements of pure farce. Details probably require the adoption of a presidential alias, though.
or "By doing this I am now married, to you."
I heard a second-hand story years ago about a girl who passed out on GHB while having sex; she was on top, and gave her boyfriend a shiner.
The 3 actual, as opposed to hypothetical, dealbreakers I've run into:
1. The girl who bit my lip so hard it started to bleed - from both the inside and outside.
2. The girl who was not just a cutter (although that would have been enough), but a "wounder" (for lack of a better term - she inflicted injuries all over her body). I really felt awful, because when she realized my horror at what I was taking in she tried to just pull me close so I couldn't see as if to pretend there was nothing wrong...
3. A propos the last conversation...this girl had an unnatural amount of pubic hair - I don't mean surface area, I mean length. I swear, it was like she had 1975 Michael Jackson's head between her thighs.
Hypotheticals:
1. Bad smell.
2. Insistence on unprotected sex.
Deal breaker:
"I'm going to blog about this tonight!"
Insistence on unprotected sex.
Oh, I know a woman who was having sex with a guy who after it had been clearly said that condoms were required, then fucked her without one. Definite deal breaker, and should be prosecutable.
better: I'm liveblogging this!
"See that webcam over there? ..."
Dealbreaker: Anything said that starts "IM IN UR".
no one has ever really asked "Is it in yet?"
I have. I can't feel much when I'm on top and thought he wasn't in. I told him to go ahead and he said he already was. That was in college. It was so humiliating for both of us that I didn't retry a woman-on-top position for almost 8 years.
151: Perfect.
Re: Crying. My ex-wife did it a couple times, although well into our relationship. It still freaked me out enough that...
...when a girl I just met (post-marriage) broke out into tears right after we first slept together, that was a dealbreaker for any further occasions. When I, as gently and compassionately as possible, asked WTF, she said "sex can just be very lonely some times".
I remember thinking - ha! you think it's lonely now, just think how lonely it's going to be when I leave - and I am leaving.
I've had enough crazies, thank you.
After a long day in her company, while she went about her routine, including stopping in where she worked, and her pushing me under the counter when her boyfriend came in, I once went to sleep with a girl in her apartment without doing anything. We'd talked plenty before that.
In the morning, I started initiating. She smiled and stirred, and occasionally seemed to be having trouble keeping a straight face, but basically acted as if she were too lazy to open her eyes. Ridiculous, of course, as I played fore, lifted and positioned her, and she was aroused, all right. But no break in the closed-eyes, "am I asleep?" except the occasional smirk or smile. All the way through. Rolled over happily, and made it plain she didn't want to be talked to. I waited around for awhile, not wanting to leave like that, but it was pretty plain that's what she wanted me to do.
I was smitten, and would have gladly repeated, but she didn't think it'd be a good idea, with her boyfriend and all, so we left it there.
Definite deal breaker, and should be prosecutable.
Donning my criminal lawyer's hat: it is in Canada. If HIV or otherwise STD positive, it's aggravated sexual assault. Otherwise, it can be prosecuted as sexual assault simpliciter (sex obtained by fraud).
sex obtained by fraud
Isn't that, like, most of it?
I don't think this would work in America.
She asked to be punched. I refused. After a short conversation which I basically interpreted as "Quit being a pussy", I was out the door.
156: I, er, fell asleep during sex, once. It was bad sex. I was tired. I didn't even feel sleepy beforehand; I just fell asleep. If I'd had any sense, that would have been the end of that little entanglement, but we remained involved for some months afterwards.
161: Jeebus. That makes me realize that there's quite a bit that would ensure that there are probably a lot of things that guarantee I wouldn't be interested in a second meeting. I, personally, would be very uncomfortable with someone who put too much control of sexual matters in my hands. A lot of that is probably an absence of a lot of exposure to women like that, but I'm pretty comfortable with my being uncomfortable with that, so I can't see it changing.
Funny enough, I was dating a wonderful woman long distance, but it eventually developed that our weekends together would inevitably involve (a) her falling asleep during sex - including one time while I was going down on her - and (b) her crying over something, related to us or otherwise. Those ended up being part of the dealbreaker.
Say the word and I'll sock you one, Timbot. It'll be trusting and whatever.
164: Looking back, I realize that I was really only in that relationship to be polite, and that I fell asleep because the sex, while non-painful and non-suffering-inducing, was totally uninteresting to me. The person was all right as a person, but not someone with whom I had a great deal in common, and possessed of horrible hippie-dippie facial hair. Facial hair itself is nearly a deal-breaker, but horrible hippie-dippie facial hair? I'm cringing right now.
Stop all your hating on the crazy! alameida is "crazy" and you all love her.
In a semi-serious vein, would you all automatically reject someone who had a history of cutting? (I've never doen anything like that, so this isn't a personal question, but I've been to support groups where people have admitted to that sort of thing.) I guess I'm thinking more in terms of longer-term relationships than short-term stuff, but somebody might have dealt with that stuff and still have visible scars. It's awfully hard to support people through that stuff, if it's realistic of them to think taht now they're permanently damaged goods.
Someone who'd been hurt badly with cigarette burns by a rapist could easily feel doubly violated--first by the initial rape, and then every time someone looked away in disgust or rejected her.
165: I concede that a sock from a Texan probably feels like a caress to the rest of us.
(It should be obvious that Pat and I are talking about different relationships, I just thought the point-counterpoint was too good to pass up. In my case, the falling asleep was due to her preference to "go hard or go home" and be out until ungodly hours, after long weeks at school/job.)
"someone who had a history of cutting" ≠ "a cutter"
Someone who'd been hurt badly with cigarette burns by a rapist
Been there. That was just after she told me she was HIV+ as a result of the attack.
would you all automatically reject someone who had a history of cutting?
No. But in the situation I referenced, there were all kinds of fresh wounds, which definitely kills the mood.
169:
"go hard or go home" is a much more succinct explanation of my dealbreaker than my anecdote in 161.
170: You realize that marriage probably saved your life? Or prevented you from making a fortune serializing it.
31, 124: That is one of the selling points of Instead, but you can only get away with it if your partner isn't very big. "What the hell was that? It's like there's a weird bone in there! It hurt."
I don't know; damaged people don't particularly bother me if they're more or less functional. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'd think a lot less of someone who rejected a former cutter-type-person solely on those grounds. That's a bit different from the "Oh, we're going to have sex now--wait, you're covered with open wounds!" situation, though.
Of course, I have a ridiculous number of suspicious-looking but quite innocent scars myself, since I scar really easily (a tremendous number are cat scratches, and several nasty ones from this weird cardboard-shredder thing) , and I've had people ask about them in a not-entirely-open-and-egalitarian-way, so I have some sympathy.
172: Smasher totally needs those to go with the undies.
would you all automatically reject someone who had a history of cutting?
I wouldn't. In the short term, except in scenarios like 'smasher's where you're going to need to be complicit in something disturbing, that sort of thing wouldn't bother me at all, per se.
you can only get away with it if your partner isn't very big.
Ahem, what????? Dude, the *flexible* ring part goes at the top of the vagina, around the cervix. If your partner's ouchy about the flexible ring, he's gonna scream and cry when he hits your cervix.
170: Serious question: what did you do? Because, wow. The poor woman. And how awkward.
You realize that marriage probably saved your life?
Perhaps. The woman in question stayed the night, and a couple other nights as well, but there was no piv/oral sex and the fooling around was all safe. We're still in touch, though she lives in another state now. She was barely in her 20s when the assault happened.
BG, I can't speak for others, but there's quite a bit of variation in how I'd react given the severity of mental illness, acuteness of current symptoms, person's willingness to seek treatment, etc.
Also, the degree to which the person is able to be an equal partner in a relationship. Someone who really needs a social worker or a parent (in a sustained kind of way, not in the kind of we-all-need-parenting-sometimes kind of way) is going to be extremely difficult to begin a relationship with. (It's also hard if it starts happening years into the relationship, but at least then you have a foundation and history together.)
no piv/oral sex
That's gotta seriously suck, for the rest of your life. Man.
I have cut things off with people who insisted I do something abusive or painful to them while fooling around the first time. I think it's perfectly reasonable to reject a cutter as a partner if you know you really will not handle that shit well.
I have way too much of a history with self-abusives to be sensitive or kind about it in the long term. I'll nicely say, "I'm sorry; I can't do this" and go home.
Oh, you say that now.
Hey, after this thread, you won't have Old Dick Nixon to kick around anymore.
Of course, I have a ridiculous number of suspicious-looking but quite innocent scars myself, since I scar really easily (a tremendous number are cat scratches, and several nasty ones from this weird cardboard-shredder thing) , and I've had people ask about them in a not-entirely-open-and-egalitarian-way, so I have some sympathy.
I had a really annoying accident in college: my coop had an industrial sized roll of plastic wrap, in a dispenser with a sharp edge, on a shelf slightly above waist height. I tried to pull some wrap off the roll, and tipped the whole roll off the shelf toward me. Somehow, I caught it with both wrists squarely accross the cutting edge, and got two shallow but nasty ragged cuts right across both wrists. I told the story a lot, assuring people that no, I wasn't in any emotional difficulty.
I, personally, would be very uncomfortable with someone who put too much control of sexual matters in my hands.
Well, you just cut down your field quite a bit, because a whole lot of women like to do that.
185 is not to say that I don't have a lot of self-abusives in my life as friends and acquaintances. I just can't have sex with them. All desire disappears, because, for me, sex is all about people feeling and making each other feel great. If I can't make someone feel good, I don't want to be involved in it.
Serious question: what did you do?
I wrote 182 before I saw this question. Y'know, I was pretty stunned. Mostly I thought that it was so horrible, and would have to leave you feeling so incredibly cheated (because, y'know, she was so young) and lonely, that I just wanted to hold her. Also, this was pretty soon after my marriage fell apart and she had been a really first-rate friend to me through all that, so I really did feel a closeness to her that affected the way I reacted.
I'm pretty certain it was the first time anybody had touched her sexually in several years.
180: I didn't say it. Some wussy guy I was dating said it.
OK, I've got one, not a considered hypothetical, but a sudden and surprising alarm. Drunken making-out at a very crowded concert; stepping out of the crowd, I realize that she has one arm. Nothing wrong with that, but as a surprise, it was jarring.
@191:Was she frustrated, do you think? I understand your reaction, but wonder if she'd have liked you to find a way, or didn't know what she wanted, in which case you were fine in every respect.
191: Oh, man that's sad. Are you still in touch? Is she generally okay?
There was a sweet, intelligent, attractive, woman I was dating who turned out to wear a colostomy bag. She didn't reveal this until we started heavily making out after several dates (I had suspicion something was off before that, but couldn't guess what).
Instant dealbreaker. I felt shallow and bad about it, but I also felt she should have told me before. Like, the first time she asked me out.
Witt speaks the truth in 183.
Voluntarily electing to start a relationship with someone with an active mental illness problem is similar to going into a relationship with someone with a substance abuse problem. You are taking a huge risk. Maybe it ends up being worth it, but a huge risk nevertheless.
For me, this hits hard. My daughter is fabulous and wonderful in so many ways. But, she is often a MAJOR pain in the ass. Getting into a relationship with me involves jumping on board with a long term pain in the ass. Don't get me wrong. There are many rewards to being around my daughter. But, it takes an unusual person to voluntarily get on my crazy ship.
193: So you had to run out before she beat the shit out of you?
would you all automatically reject someone who had a history of cutting?
No, not any more than a history of anorexia. We all have the capability to fall into self-destructive routines.
I dated a girl who was sometimes worried she would fall back into anorexia. She still had amenorrhea.
Further to 195: Duh, you said you were still in touch. Never mind.
194: We did fool around; I think we were both okay with the limits falling where they did.
195: We are still in touch, though it's been a few months since I last heard from her. She had fallen in love with a woman (which was as surprising to her as it was to me), and was very happy about it.
196: Huh. I haven't been around someone with a colostomy bag. Was the problem conceptual, or visual/olfactory?
would you all automatically reject someone who had a history of cutting?
I would. Sorry. Only relentlessly happy people for me, thanks.
As for crying, I'm pretty sure that every single woman I've slept with has cried at least once out of the first few times. Is this fruit too low for the Unfoggetariat? I doubt it.
Also, Apostropher: wow. I'm glad she's happy.
Was the problem conceptual, or visual/olfactory?
I found those hard to separate, honestly. Things never quite got to visual (the room was dark).
I think it's one of those things that would be pretty different if someone you were already committed to / in love with got a disease or health problem, vs. starting out with someone you didn't know too well yet.
202: He couldn't stop thinking the anal sex would be weird.
So, conceptual. None of my business, I was just curious.
As for crying, I'm pretty sure that every single woman I've slept with has cried at least once out of the first few times. Is this fruit too low for the Unfoggetariat? I doubt it.
From the PoV of someone who's physically non-standard, I think such people can spot a pity fuck coming at 500 yards and that is the deal breaker. So it sounds like Apo played that one very well indeed. Glad to hear she's happy.
203:
The crying or the implication that there has been more than one?
As for crying, I'm pretty sure that every single woman I've slept with has cried at least once out of the first few times.
Aside from the low-hangingness, I find this pretty goddamn shocking. Really? There's something you're not telling us. I'm thinking:
a) They were all virgins, planning to save themselves for marriage.
b) They were cheating on someone else with you.
c) You're incredibly enormous, or mean, or in some other way, uh, surprising.
I find this pretty goddamn shocking
That's because you have soulless NY sex, AWB.
she had been a really first-rate friend to me through all that
I honestly have no idea how I'd have reacted if we'd just met.
In fact, this came up when ex, exbeforelast and I were talking one day, and a friend mentioned that he'd been freaked out by the woman he was with starting to cry. Ex and ebl were both of the opinion that that was totally normal and just meant that he really cared about him (which turned out to be true, they're now happily married, etc.)
There's crazy-person crying, and then there's crying because it's an emotional, intimate moment. Nothing at all wrong with the latter. In the former case, I would worry that the person wasn't exactly ready and willing.
210: Maybe Ogged just likes sensitive girls.
physically non-standard
OFE, I have to know what this means. You have a colostomy bag? One arm? What?
211: So it's an emotional thing, related to you? Are you tender and loving or something? I could imagine being moved by such a thing.
I think OFE is in a wheelchair?
Are you tender and loving or something?
I am also incredulous by this possibility.
B, I have cerebral palsey and spinal curvature. And various not visible things.
people can spot a pity fuck
Well, I'd invited her over with the clear intention of a straight-up drunken fucking, so that wasn't really an issue.
I have cut things off with people who insisted I do something abusive or painful to them
I misread this at first as "cut things off of . . ." which sounded overly aggressive.
218: ah, you're still here. sorry.
As a data point, I've never encountered crying in any proximity to sex. I'd probably be fine with what B described and MattF just referenced, depending on how easy it was to read or if it was explained, as should be straightforward.
But as an expectation? Way outside my experience.
I just have a standard spiel that goes something like, "That was nice. But man, the best was..." and then I tell a made-up story about incredible sex on the roof of a hotel in Hawaii. They cry, but people cry at lots of stories.
Are you tender
I'm pretty sure all that swimming has left Ogged tough and stringy. I, on the other hand, would be like the finest penned veal.
I don't know; damaged people don't particularly bother me if they're more or less functional.
Damaged women are generally fantastic in bed. To the extent they remain damaged, I can't date them, though. I have enough of my own problems that it just won't do for me to be the healthiest person in the relationship...
I could imagine being moved by such a thing.
More disembodied intelligence talk from AWB.
216: Ogged? Mr. Facials and rumored domminess? Hrm.
218: Ah, I see. CP is a bitch, man: it always drives me crazy how people think that folks with CP are mentally retarded.
I'm totally disappointed that you don't have something I can make fun of, though. I was hoping for a third nipple or somesuch.
217. No, but I have to walk with a stick (which is a bugger when you've only one functional hand and you need to carry stuff). The point I was making is that IME the sexual experience that many disabled people have is that most potential partners rule us out without further consideration, which you'd expect, but a fair few feel the sorta oughta give us a break, even though they're not attracted.
This is unutterably insulting.
210: I have to say that I'm with Bear as being at least surprised. As an odd emotional reaction, or maybe if you'd finally had sex with someone you'd loved for years but were separated from by circumstances, or something, maybe. But every woman you've slept with? Do you have some kink involving erotic onion peeling?
Well, there's happy/grateful crying, which I've seen (one reason to get involved with divorced guys), and then there's "don't touch me" crying. Or "Oh my God, what have I done" crying. These I have not.
Damaged women are generally fantastic in bed.
Depends heavily on the kind of damage. But generally yes, crazy=teh hott monkey lovin'.
she should have told me before. Like, the first time she asked me out.
Come on. "Hi, would you like to go to dinner? I have a colosotomy bag."
I think it's one of those things that would be pretty different if someone you were already committed to / in love with got a disease or health problem, vs. starting out with someone you didn't know too well yet.
Presumably that's why she waited to tell you until you'd already had several dates?
you don't have something I can make fun of
Don't be a pussy, B. He can take it.
233: Just wait until the next time he and I hang out and I mock him for not being gentleman enough to carry my bags.
Yeah, in my experience crying during sex is not that uncommon, and usually a indicative of intense good / emotional feelings as opposed to bad ones.
Make all the fun you like. Just don't try and fuck me if you don't want to.
Dealbreakers change over time, too... it's interesting when you get to a point when most of your close friends have kids or start dating people who have been married before or have kids of their own.
228: Ew, that would be maddening. And further maddening and insecurity-making trying to be certain which category a prospective partner fell into.
CP does suck. My brother in law is severely retarded and has CP, and the combination of the two limits him much more severely than either would; it took me knowing him for months before I could understand much of anything he said, or got a good sense of his mental capacities. (Oddly, he has a bizarrely accurate basketball shot. He can't move fast enough to play, but hand him the ball and he can drain it from a reasonable range. It looks like he's hurling it blindly, but it goes in more often than not.)
I've cried after sex maybe twice, but both were extremely intense experiences with partners I'd been with for a long time. I have a hard time believing you could get to that level of intimacy/vulnerability/ecstasy the first or second time you have sex with someone.
I have a hard time believing you could get to that level of intimacy/vulnerability/ecstasy the first or second time you have sex with someone.
You've never had sex with Ogged then. It's like touching the face of God.
fair few feel the sorta oughta give us a break, even though they're not attracted.
This is unutterably insulting.
I can see that. I was the on-call van driver and aide for an experiment in independent assisted living in the early seventies. Most of the people in the complex were quadraplegics, of varying degrees of sophistication. I learned from conversations a bit about sexual dynamics—really, one partner should be quite strong and agile—and picked up just what you say.
I wonder if there's any obvious demographic split between people who think of crying during/after sex as reasonably likely and those who think of it as unusual?
Presumably that's why she waited to tell you until you'd already had several dates?
Um, three or four dates does not equal "committed to / in love with". Not for most of us, anyway.
"Hi, would you like to go to dinner? I have a colosotomy bag."
I was thinking more that over the first dinner would have been good.
234:
Make all the fun you like. Just don't try and fuck me if you don't want to.
His walking stick doubles as a dowsing-rod for insincerity.
A female friend of mine went on a second date with a guy, they ended up at her place and were going at it on the couch when she puts her hand down his pants. That's when she noticed he already had a condom on. Apparently, he put the thing on before meeting for dinner and had been wearing it the whole time, because he didn't want to mess with it when it was time to sex it up. It weirded her out so much that she brought things to a halt and said she had to work early in the morning, so the night was over. Disappointed, he left, but not before using her bathroom. She found the condom in the morning.
His walking stick doubles as a dowsing-rod
There's a euphemism I was unfamiliar with.
he put the thing on before meeting for dinner and had been wearing it the whole time, because he didn't want to mess with it when it was time to sex it up
That's a hall of fame example of skeez right there. Also pretty stupid, as you might snag a hole in the thing by wearing it under your clothes.
After-sex crying is one thing, but sex-induced crying is weird. This one girl I "dated" was determined to have sex, but any kind of arousal caused her to tense up, then shiver, then semi-hysterically cry. Not hott.
I wonder if there's any obvious demographic split between people who think of crying during/after sex as reasonably likely and those who think of it as unusual?
I think of it as unusual. If it happened I would spend the next several days haunted by the memory and wondering what was going on.
Maybe someone should make an online questionnaire.
246: Hilarious. But, pardon if I'm ignorant here, isn't it unlikely to keep a condom on without an erection? Did he have to remain aroused through dinner?
And yes, this would weird me out.
246: Skeeze, or incredible dorkitude.
Or come on, maybe he had a disability and it takes him an hour to put on a condom.
If someone suggested to me in the midst of making out or more "why not upgrade to the latest version of nvidia-drivers?" I would definitely break it off.
obvious demographic split between people who think of crying during/after sex
besides male vs. female?
Maybe he kept it on with a rubber band during dinner.
252: viagra + cock ring + naval service?
Cerebrocrat's trying to buff his misogynist image, I see.
246: ???????? I was thinking exactly the same thing, LB.
And White Bear, I didn't think that condoms stayed on without an erection. Maybe the guy was also really inexperienced.
256: People seem to be describing more women than men actually crying, but the split would be between people who think it's normal (Ogged) and people who think it's odd (me, Bear, Cryptic Ned). So, not really male/female.
I think you could get one to stay on; they're pretty clingy.
@252: I suppose it depends on how much of a shrinker you are. But the whole thing's daft, and I move we make a unanimous resolution that this was a justified dealbreaker.
260: Oh, come now. Do you really think there is an equal probability of a male vs. female partner crying during/after sex?
people who think it's normal (Ogged) and people who think it's odd (me, Bear, Cryptic Ned)
You're such a lawyer. Ficke and Marcus are both in the "normal" camp, as are my ex and ebl.
A related PSA: Being good and quick at putting on a condom is greatly appreciated and always an important skill to have. Not being good at putting on condoms is not a deal-breaker, but there is little weirder than sitting on the bed with a guy who says, "I'm really no good at this. Sorry. Might take a while to figure this out."
252: There's a certain way of walking which I more commonly associate with hemarroids, which might make it possible to keep it on if he was the type who doesn't expand and deflate much. But you'd think she'd notice something was afoot.
See my 262. In our culture, women cry more than men generally. There still seem to be people of both sexes who consider post-coital crying ordinary, and people who don't.
266: Dude, I personally know one woman who cries on rare occasions during sex (me) and one man who apparently cries most of the time (my friend, by his own admission). So I don't know.
My roommate freshman year of college was making out with a guy she had just met at the dorm dance when he pulled his own little tube of lube out of his pocket so she could jerk him off.
She didn't.
No way that condom stays on without an erection, or, like, a rubber-band.
267: That's not lawyering, dude, that's giving you shit. Including your exes would actually have helped my point.
but there is little weirder than sitting on the bed with a guy who says, "I'm really no good at this. Sorry. Might take a while to figure this out."
I don't know if I'd call that "weird". Just annoying or frustrating.
Only relentlessly happy people for me, thanks.
As for crying, I'm pretty sure that every single woman I've slept with has cried at least once out of the first few times.
Hmmmm...
I think I've cried after sex twice. Once for the emotional reasons most people associate with "crying after sex" but also once after what may have been the best orgasm of my life. That was less "crying" than bursting into tears as an involuntary physical reaction. It was like I had all of these hormones and signals rushing through my body and they got misdirected. I think I ended up crying and laughing at the same time. It freaked even me out for a little bit but was pretty cool.
I'm in the not-crying camp, by the way.
you'd think she'd notice something was afoot.
You'd have to be pretty warped not to notice it, if it was a foot.
people who think of crying during v. not
My bet would be not demographic, but a demarcation line in some myers-briggs personality space. Hypothesis is that people who like earnest, open partners will think this is normal; they're weirdos. People who like the fun kind of gal who steals your kidneys if you're not paying close attention and preys on your weaknesses with snarky comment, should you show any, these people think that the crying is unusual. At least until they find the leopard-spotted temptress who reveals a tender heart of gold beneath the tough front.
277/276: Cala v. Becks, the final showdown
268: More guys apologizing. Probably the same guys, now that I think about it.
262: Count me among the odds.
277/276: Cala v. Becks, the final showdown
176 (Commenting on my own comment!)
I don't know; damaged people don't particularly bother me if they're more or less functional.
In the interests of clarity, by "more or less functional" I meant "able to be witty and conversational and fun to hang out with", not any particular physical limitation or lack thereof.
I'm certain all of ogged's girlfriends were crying for reasons similar to Becks' second case.
One thing: if you're straight, you're probably not that experienced in the during-sex behaviors of your own sex. It's not like guys would tell each other if they cried during sex.
With that said, women do seem to cry more than men generally in this culture. About the only time crying is permissible for men is if your buddy is shot next to you in the foxhole. Or maybe when limping off the field just after losing the Super Bowl.
There's a cute scene in Superbad where Michael Cera's character shows that he's prepared to have sex at the party because he has a condom and a small tube of spermicidal lubricant.
Like the putting-the-condom-on-before-dinner thing, it's perfectly high-school-anxietyish.
280 fits perfectly with my vain self-image, so it's clearly true.
270: I think you're talking to me? I was talking to B.
About the only time crying is permissible for men is if your buddy is shot next to you in the foxhole. Or maybe when limping off the field just after losing the Super Bowl.
And neither of these things occur during sex, usually.
281,283: Silly Ned, you can't have the final showdown twice!
next to you in the foxhole.
So naive, Ned.
276: I've seen exactly that "involuntary physical reaction" a couple of times, and it is pretty cool.
limping off the field just after losing the Super Bowl.
No, you're allowed to cry if you won, but you're a baby if you lost.
293: Marcus is subtly advertising himself for UnfoggeDCon.
On reflection, I recall crying after a particularly good back rub and also occasionally crying after doing (a very little) yoga. When you're crazy-tense and neurotic, physical relaxation perhaps brings the crying.
271: Ah, I see your point; yes, then, clearly I am a misogynist.
295: I had a lot to make up for after last night.
In the interests of clarity, by "more or less functional" I meant "able to be witty and conversational and fun to hang out with", not any particular physical limitation or lack thereof.
OFE, I think Frowner's coming on to you.
Wait, Becks. Was either time you cried after having sex with Ogged?
About the only time crying is permissible for men is if your buddy is shot next to you in the foxhole. Or maybe when limping off the field just after losing the Super Bowl.
One could easily argue that this is precisely why one would expect more men than women to cry postcoitally.
Of course, Cerebrocrat's experience would be unrepresentative, because gay men are by definition over that whole terror of unmanliness thing.
She'd still be crying, apo. They call me Marv Albert.
I had a lot to make up for after last night.
Fell asleep during, eh?
OFE, I think Frowner's coming on to you.
I wonder how OFE's wife would feel about that.
No, he just happened to fill a much-needed gap in the literature.
IME, men are often very emotional about sex, maybe because it's the one time they feel they can really let things out in a private way to someone they can trust. So whatever emotional stuff they're carrying around from the rest of their life gets inserted into their sex life. It's not a bad thing or a good thing; it's just different from how, for example, I think about sex. It doesn't have to be the only repository of my emotions, because I feel relatively free to express myself in other ways and at other times.
BG, what happens 4000 miles away stays 4000 miles away.
299: God damn it, cockblocked by B. Thanks, B. This is precisely why I never get anywhere.
By voting odd I don't mean weird, I mean unexpected. And that may be my small lifetime count of partners and never having produced a 276 reaction.
I cry quite a bit more than the self-reporting here, I'm sure most people do. But usually such an emotional state rules out sex for me, although I understand many people feel the exact opposite: that anger, sadness, etc. are just the time for it.
Crying? All you folks need to harden the fuck up.
someone they can trust
So wait, maybe I see what's wrong-- you're saying that there exist men who trust women? Boy, are they in for a surprise. It's normal to cry for Frank Capra, maybe for a really good movie on Lifetime, but an actual adult person-- that's dangerous.
308: You never get anywhere because of me? I've only got the one boyfriend in Minneapolis, I swear.
312: That's not what they're sayin'. Oh well, at least you've left a trail of broken hearts to mark your passage.
Minneapolis is full of liars. LIARS I tell you.
One could easily argue that this is precisely why one would expect more men than women to cry postcoitally.
One could argue, or one could collect data!
Straight women and gay men (and bi people) of Unfogged, how many of your male partners have cried during or after sex?
Straight men and gay women (and bi people) of Unfogged, how many of your female partners have cried during or after sex?
If you are able to express your answers as a ratio of cryers to total, that would be helpful.
A question for men: Do you, manly fellows that you are, ever cry about life stuff? I've always assumed that most men are ruthless chunks of self-repression and that romance novels and R & B songs lie, but now I'm starting to wonder. No, seriously.
I have cried salt tears in living memory.
I have no idea how men act around women who are not me, but they really let loose around me. I hear lots of monologues about feelings and stuff. I don't really mind, as long as they're not expecting me to "fix" them. I'm not a renovator.
as long as they're not expecting me to "fix" them.
Yeah, that's what Chris Martin is for.
Frowner, there's at least as much of a prohibition on admitting that one cries as there is on crying. And I intend to enforce it.
I cried very recently. Right after sex, incidentally.
315: Oops, semi-pwnd. Although I tend to view crying-after-sex as more about relaxation than feelings, and I'm curious about the feelings stuff.
314: Well, not full. There are only a few of us; for the most part everyone is midwesternly earnest and sincere.
ever cry about life stuff
Sure. It's definitely coded negative, though, and if I start to cry about life stuff, I suddenly add "feels bad about crying" to whatever else I'm already upset about. This notion of "a good cry" is pretty alien - it's a horrible place to go to.
317: Mr. B. cries about life stuff much more than I do. Also things like sad stories on the radio, sad movies, etc.
Joke's on you, B—I haven't been in a sexual situation in living memory.
Keep in mind that destroyer is twelve years old. The teacher had sex with him and forgot to give him the candy he was promised...you can guess the rest.
I might cry in the presence of Feist.
317: As with all other questions, the data has already been collected.
322: And just how do you intend to do that, Ogged?
Yes I do, Frowner, as I've already said.
Straight man, no criers out of fewer than ten partners, all women.
What, nobody mentioned The Crying Game yet?
I probably cry--I mean really sob and get blubbery--every couple years. Nothing seems to predict what will trigger it. I've cried at some really stupid stuff.
I cried after sex once. After a delightful romp such as described in 152, what I thought was make-up sex but was apparently "I'm going to impregnate you so you can never ever leave me." Can't imagine tears for a good reason.
The women often cry out during the sex. Does that count for your study?
My father has grown rather emotional in his old age, which is annoying, because now nearly every time I visit, he tears up over something, and there is no surer trigger of crying for me than seeing my father cry.
If he can't learn to keep it together, I may have to try the old "I'll give you something to cry about" routine on him and see how HE likes it.
midwesternly earnest and sincere.
Dude, you and I both know that being midwesternly earnest requires one to lie pretty much constantly.
315 is hard to measure, because we're not comparing identical situations. I'd say, for the most part, the men I've dated have been more emotionally sensitive than me, more likely to cry about life-stuff---professional and personal frustrations, feelings, etc. The women I've been with (only a handful) have been a lot more emotional about sex than me, but not criers. (I think the latter is more about those being the kinds of people who think sex is "important" as opposed to "fun.")
336: Fuck. That is absolutely horrible.
338: So ask him if he cries during sex, Mr. Science.
315: Straight man, ~3% women cryers.
Do you, manly fellows that you are, ever cry about life stuff?
You listen to different R&B to me. The sky is crying, believe it (sorry, showing my age - that's rhythm and blues).
Dinner and bed. Hasta la victoria siempre, Frowner. No idea what you're striking for, but best of luck.
If someone suggested to me in the midst of making out or more "why not upgrade to the latest version of nvidia-drivers?" I would definitely break it off.
Ben can't handle dirty talk?
337: Cries of pain don't count, Gigantor.
Three cats was not a dealbreaker.
The women often cry out during the sex
ITYM "The women, they are often crying out during the sex with the Armsmasher".
342: I have reason to believe he's not often given the opportunity.
presidential because I'm both mostly lurking and not sure I want to discuss my sex life openly here.
stats are very roughly
me: male
female partners, maybe 8-10 criers in say 150-200ish
male partners maybe 5 in 50ish
You shouldn't cockblock your own dad, cerebrocrat.
350: Damn, motherfucker. Those are some serious stats.
Wow, some presidents get more play than Shakespeare.
This notion of "a good cry" is pretty alien - it's a horrible place to go to.
Yeah, I'll second that. A few tears shed watching Ratatouille is one thing (yes, I've cried everytime I saw the movie -- damned falshback scene!). That's pleasant enough. But a truly "good cry" is no good. I get genuinely "hungover" from a good cry. Yuck.
Men cry about life stuff?
Certainly not in the presence of other people. Alone, sure; in my case generally for maudlin reasons. I may be an oddball, as It's a Wonderful Life or any competent film with brave kids in emotional distress, courageously overcome (say Kolya) will set the tears flowing for me, and since it's impersonal, I'll snuffle away even with others present. I'll spit in public if I'm not wearing fancy clothes, I genuinely miss bar fights, and hate shopping, except for booze and seafood. Did I just write a personal ad?
Again, there will be a Myers-Briggs/ age gradient in the distribution of answers, and the football-watching grunters are unlikely to show up here to answer.
352: Seems to call for a database, or at least a spreadsheet.
At the very least one hell of a Christmas card list.
about 20% women criers (at least once), out of 20-25.
325/354: The "good cry" concept may make more sense when you are wont to keep your emotions bottled up. I have some personal experience of this.
Certainly not in the presence of other people.
lw, we don't take kindly, here, to people declaiming with such authority on what men or women do.
Do you, manly fellows that you are, ever cry about life stuff?
Yeah, definitely. I've been through a lot of stuff, so it happens. Mostly when I'm reminded of a particular incident rather than out of sadness. So since it hits me like that, I'll excuse myself and go to the bathroom, or something....even when I'm alone with someone.
A question for men: Do you, manly fellows that you are, ever cry about life stuff? I've always assumed that most men are ruthless chunks of self-repression and that romance novels and R & B songs lie, but now I'm starting to wonder. No, seriously.
I maintain a stony imperviousness to suffering and sadness, but am likely to tear up at expressions of hope. Even really cheesy expressions of hope. Like, I get a lump in my throat watching the president's speech in Independence Day.
That's weird, right?
This thread has gotten way to good for a comment of this direction, but I will confess that the way we played the original game was "I wouldn't kick _____ out of bed for eating _____." Typically went from crackers to pig slop to compost to shit. I don't remember the whole matrix, but I do remember that most everyone would tolerate Demi Moore eating compost.
I've had two women who cried during/after orgasms, one who cried following sex when we hadn't seen each other in a year, two or three who cried during breakup sex, and two more who cried during sex but had been sexually abused as kids and just generally cried during sex. The latter category is decidedly a downer. I've never cried in a sexual situation unless I was on ecstasy, and I don't recall whether that's ever happened but it's possible.
I get teary at sad or extremely touching stories—especially ones involving children—and even teared up a little at NCP's wedding reception during the speeches (you had to be there; you would have too). But it has been years since I actually cried audibly.
359: Mmph. I'll just say that that doesn't match my experience.
Is the idea that the person would be eating this substance in bed, or just that s/he would be in the habit of eating it or had eaten it once or what?
362: The musicians playing on as the Titanic sank totally broke me up.
363: Would you kick Ashton Kutcher out of bed for eating Demi Moore?
365: Fair enough, I'm not in much of a position to make generalizations.
On the dealbreaking (not crying) thread, it reminds me of my first date with my now Ex. After dinner, we went to a public park, where he attempted to seduce me. His smooth moves included pulling his penis out and exhorting me to "touch it." I didn't, but he proceeded to pleasure himself to the point of release, right there onto the brick retaining wall.
Surprisingly, I went out with him again the next night, but we stayed at my place and actually screwed instead of going anywhere public. Ended up living with him for 9 years, which probably tells you more about my tolerances for weirdness than anything else.
God, you guys are embarrassing men the world over. This is why Al Qaeda is going to win!
366: Eating it in bed. The old expression "I wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers" implies that the person is so hot that a gentleman of your fastidiousness would endure the crumbs for a night in her presence.
I had a boyfriend once who cried freely and copiously when we argued or he was otherwise upset about emotional life stuff, and this makes me completely retrograde and bad, but it absolutely repulsed me. If he'd just broken down on occasion, about genuinely upsetting things that weren't me, I don't think I'd have minded, but bursting into tears because I hurt his feelings grossed me out utterly. It was entirely unfair of me in every way, but I couldn't get rid of this mean, judgmental reaction. You can imagine how ugly it got when I eventually broke up with him.
344: You know, lately I'm not exactly sure what we're striking for. That is, I know on paper and I know I won't go back til it's settled (and in our workplace, not everyone is union and even the union people don't all strike--which makes you just slap your forehead in despair) but it's getting a bit depressing.
359: I get post-cry euphoria, just as I get post-migraine euphoria. I mean, I also feel exhausted and hungover, but there's a defininte lightness and sense of pleasureable detachment afterwards. Weirdly, I cry easily about books and films but I only really cry once every six months to a year. I don't like interruptions when I'm crying, mostly, because I prefer to sob and beat the wall with the flat of my hand. I find that I tend to really cry about politics and death, not much else.
God, threads about dealbreakers are depressing during a dry spell.
374: I'm the same way. It makes me feel really manipulated to deal with people who can't discuss anything without bawling. (And that goes for women and men both.)
Ratatouille is one thing (yes, I've cried everytime I saw the movie -- damned falshback scene!
Really? I burst out laughing at that scene. (Anton Ego's flashback, right? Or was there another sad one I'm forgetting?)
Most stereotypical movie cry ever: Brokeback Mountain. Everybody just shut up.
Speaking of "the good cry" notion, I was (reluctantly) watching some Dane Cook stand-up with some overly masculine friends one time and I started mocking his bit where he endorses "the good cry."
I was shocked when everyone I was with condemned me. Apparently expressing emotion generally (as I am more inclined to do than they are) is bad, but a hard, fierce cry every once in a while is masculine and acceptable.
God, threads about dealbreakers are depressing during a dry spell.
There, there.
Al Qaeda is going to win
Unlikely. The maudlin coefficient in Egyptian cinema is extremely high. Besides, international conflicts are usually resloved by capable defectors, and we've got you.
376: Aw, AWB, whyn't you just have a good cry instead?
370 is awesome. 372: college was a while ago, although in my book nothing's changed. Maybe she'd go down to pig slop.
Actually, I can't remember if pig slop is grosser than compost. Compost is all the organic material that you can't give the pigs, but pig slop is all the leftovers mixed together and looks grosser. Oh, bother.
I get post-cry euphoria, just as I get post-migraine euphoria I was thinking of the same comparison. People who may have witnessed you crying don't believe you when you say how much better you feel.
RFTS: Why do you think it's so unfair? You're not freezing in the presence of emotion so much as judging the cause, I think correctly.
During my separation, I mostly did my crying on the freeway. Not sure why. Felt more alone than the empty apartment.
Re: Men crying after sex, check this out
http://cbs5.com/video/?id=26888@kpix.dayport.com
Mind you, it's a guy *talking* about sex, so it's almost the same.
(Actually, I shouldn't make fun - it's the mayor of San Diego explaining why he now supports equal rights for gay/lesbian partners. Good for him, and it's a pretty moving speech).
384: Well fine, be that way. No pity fuck for you, then.
No accounting for taste. Anyways, I bet it depends on how far along the compost is.
I haven't cried, sex or otherwise, for like eight and a half years. Not out of any masculinity hangup, I just happen to be wired weirdly.
379: This makes me wonder: how much control does one have over crying? Like, if you decide that you want to be all in touch with your feelings instead of manly and stoic, is it possible to switch over to a little cry every now and again rather than the cinematic/when-pushed-to-the-brink kind? I find that once I really start crying I cry, and I can't imagine that the things that make me really, truly cry would fit in with a little sobbing every so often.
Well, it just seems mean. It's not like I never cry (though I certainly don't cry anywhere near as much or as willingly as this guy did), and it felt both sexist and selfish of me.
378: Yes, the Anton Ego flashback. Maybe it's just that I've seen the movie while PMS-ing, but a steady flow of tears every time.
Brokeback. Damn it, I wanted to like that movie but I hated it. Never understood the relationship. I decided it must have been guy movie. The ex, however, who is a bit of a homophobe and only agreed to see it because it was directed by Ang Lee, was entranced. He apparently felt like he could really relate to the one who wasn't Jake Gyllenhall but whose name I can't remember.
And now I've overshared.
Continuing 392: also, I felt like there was something wrong with feeling actual disgust.
394: I hear where you're coming from, but it seems like a more justified case then you sometimes get. And some women are unapologetic about not wanting men to cry, ever.
some women are unapologetic about not wanting men to cry, ever.
misogynists, obviously.
It makes me feel really manipulated to deal with people who can't discuss anything without bawling.
Amen.
My ex would cry all the time when we fought, and I actually thought she was using as a tactical ploy (because men will generally do anything to get a woman to stop crying); I mean, she would only cry when I was winning/she was losing the argument (it was a bit like an octopus with the ink). It got to the point where we would fight about her crying during fights...
I tear up at all sorts of stuff, but not at bad stuff happening directly to me. Seems like then I'm too busy coping to get emotional.
OT: The analysis in this article is mostly bullshit, but there's lots of discussion fodder.
RFTS, it's an interesting situation. I have had male partners who cried a lot in ways that made me mad (manipulative, self-absorbed, quick to take offense, etc) but also male partners who cried in ways I found deeply moving (like Max, who spent the first month we were together nearly in tears because I looked him in the eyes and was nice to him, something he hadn't had in years with his wife). I guess I don't have much respect for people who are easily wounded by conversation, but I am really impressed by expressions of vulnerability.
I'm not cryin',
it's just been raining.
On my face.
I've wondered whether reality TV is paving the way for more openness about men crying. I only tend to watch the cooking related shows, but there's an awful lot of male blubbering on Top Chef, Next Food Network Star, etc.
As far as crying generally, do people draw a distinction between "tearing up" and full on crying? I do the former a lot, but the latter very seldomly.
I don't think a real "cry" has occured until you get vocalization of some sort.
The thread the other day leaves me wondering whether AWB would kick someone out of bed for not having read a book since high school.
Wet eyes and a lump in your throat do not crying make. In my book you need at least the jagged exhalations, but they can be silent.
The guys on The Pick-Up Artist cry on every episode. (Season finale next Monday!)
404: Not found. It's highly unlikely that I'd get into bed with them in the first place.
This thread is making my nose run.
(I thought it'd be funnier to say "This thread is making me wet" but I am slightly too embarrassed to just make the joke outright.)
405: Because your feelings are hurt, or out of joy and gratitude?
407: Proxy authentication required. Uh, I mean... that was pretty much what I gleaned from the previous thread. But you didn't answer the question (and it was meant seriously) -- would you?
The Pick-Up Artist is hilarious. Did you see Mystery on the Samantha B. clip on the Daily Show? It's up on Feministing. It's so fucking funny.
I would kick any of my students out of my students out of bed if they tried to divide by zero.
Heebie, you're not supposed to have your students in your bed. We've talked about that before.
411: Oh yay! I wanted to see that. I'm semi-obsessed with The PUA, for reasons which I will probably beg someone to let me guest-post on their blog after next Monday's finale.
410: You mean if I was fooling around with someone, and it somehow came out that he was functionally illiterate? I can't imagine that scenario, but I have had sex with dumb guys. This is part of why I'm having a hard time dating right now. It's really really really easy to meet hot dumb guys in NYC. It's also very tempting. And I don't want to do it anymore. I'm bored of sexing dumb guys.
The PUA is definitely one of the main reasons to regret I don't have cable. I wonder if I can get hold of DVDs or something.
AWB, let us all know when you post on it.
Rock of Love is even better. I love Rock of Love sooooo much.
re 411: here's link to the whole Samantha Bee sketch with Mystery in it. Her best ever I thought, hilarious:
http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/20/politics-meets-satc/
The only real problem with being involved with someone who cries a lot is that after a while you become inured to it and a lot of other indications of unhappiness, and possibly end up behaving like more of a bastard (or a bitch) than you really should. Or so I've heard.
I used to give my male friends lots of shit about exclusively dating hot dumb girls whom they didn't respect, when, as cute smart guys, they could have their pick of cute smart girls. But at some point, I realized, you know, it's just easier to get involved with dumb handsome boys. They're not as self-conscious, they're not trying to figure out what things "mean," and they're not hypercompetitive about who-knows-more-factoids?-type crap. I know there are wonderful, smart, attractive men in the world---some of them even single!---but, for them and for me, dating one another is a lot higher-stakes, and it's really hard to date people you like and respect. I want to do that. But it means I can't get caught up by the kinds of guys who actually hit on me.
416: I don't have a TV. I watch the episodes on VH1.com. Totally worth it, man.
The article linked in 400 grows steadily and steadily more horrifying, until you get to the end and read that it came from the American Enterprise Institute and can think, "thank goodness! a crazy person wrote this."
Off all the ways to say "I don't have a TV", following it with "I watch VH1.com." has to be among the least offensive.
AWB, 415 and 420 set some kind of new record for speed and intensity of self-contradiction.
Yeah, the other show that was worth watching online for me was Age of Love. I'm TV-less, but for God's sakes, I'm not highbrow.
I love how Mystery has his soul patch pierced.
424: I don't get it. How do they contradict? In both comments, I say it's been way too easy to get involved with guys who are not very smart, and that I don't want to do it anymore.
Someone who hasn't read a book since high school, though? That's off-the-charts.
From what little I saw of it, Age of Love was rigged so all the younger women were impossible bitches and the older women were cool and nice.
422: Ugh, I followed a link from the Chronicle and missed the AEI connection. I do think that the role of work in life-as-it-should-be is an interesting question to chew on, but that's a pretty lame attempt to do so. Which isn't hard to understand if it's just AEI "work harder, proles" propaganda.
Yeah, the main outcome of that little social experiment was the shocking discovery that it's easier to date someone who radiates neediness and hurtability than to date someone who makes you feel you have a lot to learn. Jen wasn't a brain surgeon or anything, but she knew what she was doing. Amanda was a total headcase.
427: This is so incredibly alien to me. People who I don't think are very smart make me cripplingly insecure -- I have no idea how to amuse them, so I shut up entirely like a clam. With people I think are clever, I feel as if I've got something to offer. Then again, the idea of it being really really easy to hook up with anyone, hot dumb guys or not, is also mysterious to me. Yay, not dating.
Everyone think about my problems now: showoffy 10th anniversary present that doesn't present a storage problem (NYC apartment). New speakers, maybe, or is that really lame? And if it isn't lame, tell me what to buy.
People who I don't think are very smart make me cripplingly insecure -- I have no idea how to amuse them, so I shut up entirely like a clam
God, so right. Dumb people are banned! (Right after they willingly give up power.)
Speakers sound like (heh) an awesome anniversary present. Kind: Large & Loud.
(BTW, anyone I've ever met and been taciturn at -- this does not necessarily mean I think you're stupid, I clam up for many and varied reasons, neurotic and non. But if I met you and was sparklingly animated, I think you're terribly clever.)
tell me what to buy
An elephant!
No, new speakers are a good choice (particularly if he's into music). Or one of them flat-panel television things. Are you generally thinking of electronic-type objects?
LB didn't say a word to me when we met.
426: It's hard to shave around that kind of piercing. I think the soul patch may be a logical consequence of the piercing.
Yay new speakers!
I teach undergrads, and have to sparkle at them whether they're A-1 braniacs or not, which might be why I do well with our less-gifted brethren. I make them laugh. It's not that I'm bad with smart guys, but mutual intimidation leads to inaction.
What is 10-years as far as anniversary symbolism? I know year one was paper... Gold and silver are like 25 and 50?
new speakers are a good choice
I hate to do this but . . . what's the current set-up? How confident are you that the speakers are the weak link? Are the current speakers bookshelf or floor standing?
New speakers are a good choice, because there something that people often wouldn't buy themself, that they use regularly, and will notice the difference, but it can take some time and effort to select speakers, so it makes some difference how much time you have to look.
I'm bored of sexing dumb guys.
Ahem.
Traditionally, the 10th year is Tin/Aluminum. Modern, the 10th is Diamond.
Get him a can of Diet Coke?
10-year should be electronics. iPod, new laptop, speakers, something like that. Or! A twenty-visit pass to the Russian Baths. Mmmmmm.
435: I have no idea, speakers are just the only thing I thought of. If I were a guy, I'd be doing the stupid jewelry thing -- "Look, it's expensive enough to prove I took it seriously, but requires no thought!" But he wouldn't wear diamond earrings.
The problem is, our apartment is full, and he has no hobbies that require equipment, nor does he wear much in the way of pretty clothes. (I got him a gift certificate for custom-made shirts a year or two ago, and he still hasn't worn them.)
10th anniversary is tin or aluminum. This says the theme of the piece is humor, but I don't get it.
442 -- huh, yeah, speakers it is!
Although, aluminum -- you can send Newt and Sally away for the evening and greet Buck at the door draped in Reynold's Wrap!
436: Heh. I was actually rather hurt by that -- all evening and you hardly said word one to me. Snf.
I think the theme of that piece is Broccoli.
I'm thinking that 10 years should be celebrated by an event, not an item.
"Buck, we're going to Unfogged DC!"
446/449: On second thought, after that other anecdote you posted, please don't try this unless you have someone who will help you use the little built in razor thing to tear off the foil. Slit wrists for the 10th anniversary is such a dealbreaker.
Speakers are a great idea, and if you have the time to have them shipped, you can get some great deals at the Cambridge Soundworks Outlet:
http://www.bestspeakerdeals.com/store/category.cgi?category=0
No, I don't work for them, but I just bought some of their stuff, so it's right at the tip of my brain.
Snf.
More girly emotional manipulation.
So, what kind of speakers do you have now? (Roughly speaking.)
God, what if I went to a meet-up and no one talked to me?
LB, is there something maybe that Buck would like to do or try but wouldn't do on his own? Kind of like the equivalent of a spa day for you... I dunno, like sending him and his friends paintballing for an afternoon?
450: He'd love it, but we have no place to keep it.
LB, is there something maybe that Buck would like to do or try but wouldn't do on his own
Someone needs to link to the Brazilian thread.
454: Ones we found in the laundry room. God knows what the brand is.
Doesn't he work at home doing something on computers? Consider an office chair upgrade.
Ones we found in the laundry room
I mean, are they big tall speakers that live on the floor, or boxy speakers that live on a shelf, or what? And what do you have room for?
(On preview: I wouldn't buy a chair for someone else.)
is there something maybe that Buck would like to do or try but wouldn't do on his own?
"Buck, there's a man waiting in the bedroom with a special surprise for you..."
greet Buck at the door draped in Reynold's Wrap!
Unless he has fillings.
Big tall speakers on the floor. Given that, we have room to replace them with big tall speakers, but smaller is always going to be better.
A question for men: Do you, manly fellows that you are, ever cry about life stuff? I've always assumed that most men are ruthless chunks of self-repression and that romance novels and R & B songs lie, but now I'm starting to wonder. No, seriously.
I cry about things that seem completely hopeless. About a year ago I cried like 20 times in a month when for the first time in my life it seemed like I had gone down the wrong path and had no chance to switch to the right path.
I get post-cry euphoria, just as I get post-migraine euphoria. I mean, I also feel exhausted and hungover, but there's a defininte lightness and sense of pleasureable detachment afterwards.
Yeah, me too.
Like, if you decide that you want to be all in touch with your feelings instead of manly and stoic, is it possible to switch over to a little cry every now and again rather than the cinematic/when-pushed-to-the-brink kind?
No. Either stoic, or audibly sobbing. I don't think any other humans have actually heard my audible sobbing, except my fiancee, once. (and probably my parents, but I don't remember what that incident might have been)
Straight men and gay women (and bi people) of Unfogged, how many of your female partners have cried during or after sex?
0 of 2.
Finally, comment 420 sounds like complete insanity. I get the feeling that cordial as we are here, I'd probably not like AWB if we were acquaintances in real life.
One alternative to speakers would be good headphones and, optionally, a headphone amp. Good speakers are nicer but results can depend on placements and room interactions.
That's cheaper which may or may not be a plus.
I've tried a couple of nice headphones over the last year and am very happy with the predictable choice of the Sennheiser 650.
speakers with stands if you don't already have them, a little elevation makes a big difference, a corset (a little elevation...), and a personal grooming device.
"Buck, there's a man waiting in the bedroom with a special surprise for you..."
Read this as "rectal surprise". Which would imply the same thing, but would mean Buck probably wouldn't be all that surprised when he actually went upstairs.
"I'm thinking that 10 years should be celebrated by an event, not an item."
Totally agree. The 10 year should be an experience rather than something that blends with IKEA, Crate & Barrel, etc purchases. Something that later you'll say, 'yeah, that was great!' The best trip/dinner/show you can afford.
466 posted before seeing 464, sounds like you have space for speakers.
I'd probably not like AWB if we were acquaintances in real life.
She's perfectly pleasant in person. Just don't sleep with her, I guess.
Hrmf. "Perfectly pleasant". Sounds like tofu. Spectacularly fun.
Whoops, yeah, that sounds like damning with faint praise. No, she's great! And funny! And witty! And makes delicious bean salad!
I'm thinking that 10 years should be celebrated by an event, not an item.
"Buck, we're going to Unfogged DC!"
On an aluminum airplane! Perfect.
Re. speakers--if what you have now is huge speakers you found in the laundry room, then yes: get the man a nice pair of smaller speakers. You can get amazingly good speakers nowadays in small sizes, or so my husband and audiophiles generally say.
Ok, music snobs, time to step up with the tower speaker recommendations. I'm pretty much out of my element here, LB, but I have some Polk speakers in my car that I'm very happy with. But there are many good speaker makers, of which the Unfoggetariat will now inform you.
The problem is, our apartment is full, and he has no hobbies that require equipment, nor does he wear much in the way of pretty clothes.
Maybe you've reached the point in life where the best thing to do is go out for a nice dinner and skip the gifts? We've been sort of drifting that way, and it reduces the stress.
465: Isn't the euphoria nice? I've gotten through my last few migraines by looking forward to it. I do like euphoria. Come to that, perhaps tonight would be a good night for a little glass of wine to console me for the unaccountable delay in the historically-inevitable union victory. All power to the soviets!
Finally, comment 420 sounds like complete insanity. I get the feeling that cordial as we are here, I'd probably not like AWB if we were acquaintances in real life.
Uncalled for. I thought it was fine, but that's not the point.
465: Sorry if 420 was TMI, I guess, Ned. I feel like it's the sort of problem men talk about a lot---reaching a point where you realize the ease with which one meets a partner who is not an intellectual equal is related to fear of actual intimacy. But then you get past the fear of intimacy and then you're stuck not knowing how to go about meeting someone you can respect. I only said it because I think it's a male stereotype that can be true for women, too.
And it's not like I've only dated super-hot vapid guys. But they're the only ones who actively express interest in me, without irony or competitiveness.
475: Please. There must be some audiophiles who can put me on a nice reliable brand of smallish but good-sounding speakers in the moderately spendy but not lunatic range.
It may just be that more of us are in LB's position--more intimidated, or at least mystified, by the dumb pretty ones--than AWB's. I sure am. Also, as a married, boring old fart, discussions like this quickly cure any grass-is-greener sentiment.
shivbunny is not my educational or intellectual equal, but that is not a bad thing because being my equal would mean another grad student, which is too many neuroses for any one relationship.
I mean, it's good that when we watch Rome only one of us starts squeaking about Leibniz and superessentialism when Caesar crosses the Rubicon.
Smallish but good sounding speakers in the moderately spendy but not lunatic range, you say? Hm!
Then maybe toss in a cd with a significant song from each year of your married life to date. To make the speakers mushy.
Does he start squeaking when you watch movies with big-ass explosions?
476: On our last anniversary, I was visiting the boyfriend and Mr. B. was in Kentucky with his parents and siblings.
It may just be that more of us are in LB's position--more intimidated, or at least mystified, by the dumb pretty ones--than AWB's. I sure am.
I know you don't like weak women, you get bored so quick. And you don't like strong women, 'cause they're hip to your tricks.
484: Yay, advice! Thank you thank you.
487: See, that's a little further than I'd really want to take it. But YMM(AD)V.
487: Not really bragging material, that.
It may just be that more of us are in LB's position--more intimidated, or at least mystified, by the dumb pretty ones--than AWB's.
There's a third option -- being equally intimidated by both the pretty dumb ones as by the intellectual equals, such that one ends up with a dim-witted schmuck who's not even all that attractive.
Hypothetically speaking, of course.
479: I'm like that too, esp. with sex: much easier to enjoy myself if I don't really give a shit what the other person thinks of me.
Stupid neurosis.
We normally do have a non-aggression pact around Valentines Day and our anniversary. Neither one of us is expected to remember or do anything much. But ten years seems like I should do something.
490, 491: Oh, admittedly: not so great, that one. 'Twasn't bragging, more like self-deprecating braggadocio. We sort of made travel plans before we figured out the date. Or at least, I didn't really realize until too late, because I'm really awful at remembering significant dates until they're almost on top of me.
492: Maybe a different strategy next time?
More speakers. I don't know whether those are the very best for the money, but like I say, I'm very happy with mine.
Like dating from the impeccably sane and attractive pool of Unfogged commenters! (Not that I can think of anyone either geographically or otherwise appropriate.)
If you're willing to completely give up on anything resembling "smallish", I can certainly recommend my speakers, often available used for bargain prices.
In honor of the 500th comment in the thread, let me say, sorry I crashed the bot.
499: I suppose we could buy an additional apartment to put them in... 39" tall?
awful at remembering remembering significant dates until they're almost on top of me
That must be confusing for your dates.
Maybe a different strategy next time?
You know I think Emerson has a strategy that would guarantee that Di wouldn't date a schmuck ever again.
It would be my anniversary today, if I were still married.
503: Sometimes they end up kicking her out of bed.
499, "speakers" s/b "cock", obvs.
Honey, no one has ever kicked me out of bed.
Actually, that's not true.
502: with the smaller base, yeah. They're utterly ludicrous. They also weigh like 150 pounds each, distributed very awkwardly. They were a gift, and while I love them, they are not something it would ever occur to me to purchase myself. The reason you can get them so cheap, I suspect, is that most of the young, single, overpaid men who buy them are forced to get rid of them pretty much the minute they move in with a woman.
That was certainly the case with mine.
498: I like long walks at sunset, and holding hands...
Really I think a 40" cock would be a hassle most of the time.
Yeah, B, I think starting a conversation about why people here have been given the boot would be both fascinating and dangerous.
513: Dude, I am not volunteering anything beyond the simple fact of the matter. Because I'm honest and self-deprecating like that, but not a complete idiot.
These are supposedly a great sound for the money.
I did give the boot once over birth control. Well, no boot, just declined. The rhythm method was on offer. I was not convinced.
I returned the next day with condoms, which I hadn't had the night before. She was Polish, and in her Catholic upbringing, condoms meant "whore". A few weeks later she came around on the issue, but we were camp counselors together, and she was on a plane a few days after that. Oh well.
508: Gotta keep it on topic, you know.
505: Last week we had the 18th anniversary of our first marriage and the 13th of our divorce. I still remember walking back from the mailbox with the file-stamped decree, filed on our anniversary (no hearing, just happenstance that the documents landed in front of the judge that day). I lose track of the other anniversary. I think it's June 30, but I tend to get it confused with several significant dates at the end of July and end up having to dig out the marriage certificate to check.
When the link is labelled "40" cock," I think the NSFW is pretty generally understood.
Ironically, those were pretty much safe for work.
Sexism at work: everyone oohs and ahs at the male tapir's Washington Monument, but the lady tapir's Martha Washington Monument must be pretty impressive too.
reaching a point where you realize the ease with which one meets a partner who is not an intellectual equal is related to fear of actual intimacy.
What about if you can have love and intimacy with a person but not sex? Or sex but not intimacy? I've realized over time that I tend to separate the two sorts of feeling and I have no idea why. It's rather inconvenient, although one would think otherwise.
I don't know anything about commercial speakers (remind me to talk at some point about the wildly eccentric but brilliant person who built my speakers. Also remind me to brag about the new pre-amp he's building that I don't need but is very pretty.)
Quickly browsing audioreview.com these look interesting (the epinion reviews also have helpful comments). Does anyone know anything about them? It looks like they can be found used at reasonable prices (there's a pair on ebay for $550 right now).
518 - so you got married again? My parents did that but I've never heard of anyone else non-famous who did. There was about 2 1/4 years between separation and remarriage. They don't (publicly) celebrate their first anniversary; coming up to 18 years second time round.
524: Agreed. I often have fabulous love and intimacy with my friends, real mutual adoration. I know other people who can turn that into a romantic and sexual partnership, and I envy them. It's so hard to know if bringing desire into a friendship will make your friend feel cheap or objectified. I don't feel that way, but, especially given my relationship history, and the fact that a good friend would know about it, I do fear him feeling like my desire cheapens him.
That said, I have had sex with deeply respected and adored female friends, but not, like, romantic relationships.
Would be nice to find it all in one package, that's for sure.
So, more a reconsideration of whether the divorce was a good idea at all, then a fresh start on a new relationship.
This is a counterfactual, I guess: the smarter and more educated the woman, the more relaxed and confident I am. It's not the only factor, of course, but it's a really big one. I can talk in my natural idiom, spontaneously. I can be myself. Nothing is quite so deadly as repeated looks of incomprehension, and plenty of "What?" That's when I get really self-conscious, and uncomfortable.
Something like that, but some element of starting afresh, too.
532: Same here. I feel bizarrely guilty if I realize I've talked over someone's head, like I need to apologize for knowing stuff.
Does anybody else remember the sex scene in The Goodbye Girl where Richard Dreyfuss cries? I have a vague memory that it is portrayed as 1970s Sensitive Male in a more or less sweet way. It's almost impossible to imagine that happening in a movie today.
Later on the female character even refers to it: "The first time we made love, you cried....
Eh, I can't remember the rest of the context. I remember thinking the scene made him look kind of weak, and then being ashamed of myself for being sexist. But it's hard to disentangle that from generally finding RD's roles irritating, which I do.
528: I am somewhat haunted by the belated realization that a close friend whom I was hopelessly in love with in high school probably felt the same way, and more so by the fear that she may have misunderstood why I never effectively tried to make something of it and been significantly hurt by that. But I really couldn't imagine that she could see my desire as a good thing. Blech.
Now that I think of it, it might be Richard Dreyfuss in The Competition.
I've always dated women I was friends with first.
re: speakers
Tannoy Mercurys on the PC [attached to an old 1970s but pretty great sounding Kenwood/Trio receiver] and a set of Tannoy 605IIs on the living room system -- which are stand-mounted but pretty big as far as stand mounts go.
re:
The reason you can get them so cheap, I suspect, is that most of the young, single, overpaid men who buy them are forced to get rid of them pretty much the minute they move in with a woman.
When I moved in with my previous girlfriend, she asked why I needed such a big hi-fi, and such large speakers [they aren't large compared to the floor-standers already linked]. When we split up, she phoned to tell me she'd gone out and spent a huge chunk of money on a new hi-fi and speakers, as she couldn't go back. I considered myself vindicated.
The best thing about everyone going to 5.1 DVD based systems is that good stereo stuff is cheap second-hand.
I couldn't spend anything like the money for some of these things new.
532: I've invested a considerable amount of energy in learning how to talk on a less-academic, less-literary level than I used to be comfortable doing. Partly this is a work-related thing, and worth it from that standpoint (insofar as the job is worth it), but apart from broadening my range of casual friendships it actually hasn't made that much difference from a romantic standpoint. Once you're imprinted on Educated there just isn't any going back.
I've always successfully dated women I was friends with first.
Okay, followup question on the speakers. I have no opinion at all as to the quality, power, or brandname of the stereo equipment that will be attached to the speakers (well, I can figure out the brand name when I go home.) I have the ignorant belief that compatibility isn't an issue for speakers -- any speakers will work with any stereo. Is this true, or do I have to figure out what I'm doing to buy something compatible?
I have recently been an uncomfortable witness to the awful spectacle of a friend who is incapable of constructively/compassionately dealing with a highschool friend of hers, who silently pined for her back in the day, and has since grown into a 30 year old virgin who pines for her still. He just finally worked up to trying out a kiss; it didn't go over well at all. What to do, besides cover my eyes...
542: Ooh, boy, is that not true.
Bummer. What do I have to know?
re: 544
Well, that can be over-rated a bit. Most not-low-end hi-fi gear being broadly compatible with most not-low-end speakers.
By "broadly compatible" I take it that it means that they'll work, but the brightness in the high notes may be muffled or something?
I was just surfing around looking for a link to give you that would explain... didn't quickly come up with anything great, but maybe this would do.
543: OMG. That's terrifying. The kiss was with her, the Ultimate Beloved? Train wreck.
My high school reunion is in a few weeks, and I am somewhat eased to discover that my Ultimate Beloved was not found by the reunion committee. Then I talked to a girlfriend from HS, who found out her UB (turns out is the same as mine) will not be there, so she's considering skipping it. I've convinced her to come, and am more grateful than ever that our UB won't be there.
547: While I'm sure it's possible to so severely mismatch your speakers to your amplifier that you could get them to blow up, yeah, the main problem would be spending a buncha dough on nice speakers and getting lousy sound out of them.
re: 547
You'll be able to get the impedance and wattage from the existing speakers. So if you talk to someone knowledgeable they can probably recommend a decent alternative.
I'm deeply biased against systems that use sub-woofers, but that's just a personal thing, probably. Since most people I know that have systems built that way have some tinny shit little boxes and a huge hulking subwoofer that sounds like a speaker in a cupboard.
You know, that I'm not so much bothered by. Given that our current speakers suck, better speakers will probably be better, albeit not living up to their full potential, and if it turns out we're going to need a new amp to make them sound great, there's always Christmas.
I suppose the biggest worry is that if the existing speakers are pretty great, then it'd be hard to get something better without spending monster amounts of cash.
That's why those Polk Monitor's seemed like a good bet, since they explicitly say that they don't need much power to sound good. Whether that's true, I dunno.
553: well, if the idea is to find an excuse to get a new amp, then, I like the way you think. But if you like the one you have, just do the basic homework and you'll be happier.
543: Yikes. My fear isn't about continuing attraction or anything, it's that we teased her about being a cheerleader and sometimes a bit of a ditz (both, I think in hindsight, coping strategies for someone struggling with being smart and beautiful and trying to fit in) and I'm afraid she might have thought I didn't respect her intelligence, which was mostly what was attractive in the first place.
I'm deeply biased against systems that use sub-woofers
I hadn't thought about it before, but I think I might agree with you here.
550: Train wreck indeed. And she's totally making it worse; she's refusing to talk to him.
557: The thing is, I'm completely indifferent to all of this. I occasionally listen to music, but if I lived alone I probably wouldn't bother to own a stereo. The idea of noticing differences in sound quality is entirely foreign to me; while I don't think I'm literally tone-deaf, I'm pretty darn insensitive. This is why the pathetic begging for advice -- if I cared, I'd know something.
What about if you can have love and intimacy with a person but not sex? Or sex but not intimacy? I've realized over time that I tend to separate the two sorts of feeling and I have no idea why.
Yeah, you get therapy. Because that's a tricky one in a long-term relationship, if you want one. You can go for a long time if you can finangle that "open relationship" thing but at some point you gotta deal with your fuckeduppedness.
Man, I don't like thinking about the very cool women I didn't talk to when I was in high-school/college because I didn't have any idea what I was doing or what actually made people cool. The very pretty painter in high school who told me I had an "interesting face" (haha)--totally blew her off. The beautiful woman in my Hegel class who always wound up sitting next to me--never managed to talk to her. Dios mio. It's true that at that age I would have screwed up any relationships with them, but...sigh.
558: You probably scarred her for life.
re: 556
Sensitive speakers are better than ones that aren't, I suppose, but personally, I've never ever had a problem with an amp/speaker combination that didn't go loud enough.
re: 559
My stand-mounts [fairly big boxes for stand mounts but not huge compared to big floor-mounted speakers] produce plenty of bass for me. So I suppose I'm not a bass-head. It's the 'integration' between the small speakers and sub-woofers that I always find problematic in other people's systems. Not that I am some 'audiophile' expert or anything.
I've always dated women I was friends with first.
I've always been friends with women I've dated first.
562:
Isnt that the truth? Some remarkable people go largely unnoticed in high school.
562: Last I knew my friend was in the Bay Area and still single....
Yeah, but is Buck indifferent? (if so, why on earth are you considering speakers?) And a lot of people have the experience of *learning* the differences in sound quality.
If you're remotely interested (I know, you just said you aren't) and have the time someday, like after the children are grown, take a couple favorite recordings into a high-end audio store with a listening room and act like you're there to spend. If you're not literally tone-deaf, you'll get the difference.
562: Ogged, on the other hand--if his regrets are for anything but lost opportunity--is surely giving himself airs.
Last I knew my friend was in the Bay Area and still single....
Ha, I googled the woman from college and she lives out here too, but with her husband and three kids.
568: Well, that's why it's a present -- he listens to music a fair amount, so I should expect he's not indifferent to sound quality. What I meant is liking or not liking the amp isn't something I have an opinion on -- if after the new speakers, prodding elicits bitching about the amp, then I have someplace to go for his next birthday.
Something like that, but some element of starting afresh, too.
Your description at the bay area meetup of "the divorce didn't work out" was one of the most awesome things I've ever heard.
I suppose I'm lucky enough not to have had any crushes on girls in high school that persisted for any length of time. I left high school at 16, though, so I'd only just started getting really interested in girls when I left.
I did have a weird quasi-platonic relationship with a female friend [who was also a friend of my parents] for years, though. A relationship that was only quasi-platonic because I was too dumb to make the appropriate moves.
Man, I don't like thinking about the very cool women I didn't talk to when I was in high-school/college because I didn't have any idea what I was doing or what actually made people cool.
Jeebus, isn't that the truth. There should be a shorthand way to reference these people, who seem to turn up in college as well. Gawd, am I an ass.
563: Lord, I hope not, but she's one of a small handful of people from my high school class to whom I think I owe a big apology (for the teasing, not the failure to make a move). Maybe someday.
You know how to make whatever gift you choose seem extra-special? Find a pregnant friend to pee on a home pregnancy test and wrap that up. Then, once the shock settles in, tell him you're kidding and pull out the real gift.
BTW, thanks, ogged, as I'm now in physical pain.
Find a pregnant friend to pee on a home pregnancy test and wrap that up.
A friend's (ex) wife did this to him for April Fools.
Yeah, all my and my UB ever managed was a lot of quiet, tragic eye contact, followed by remarkably clumsy and hurtful attempts at teasing. If either of us had learned how to make a decent first move, we'd probably be a lot more romantically successful than we are now. (Rumor has it he's an even bigger disaster than me.)
I've never ever had a problem with an amp/speaker combination that didn't go loud enough.
The problem isn't so much not going loud enough; I think that if the speakers are seriously underpowered by the amp, the cones won't be underdriven equally, and so the whole response profile will be screwy and your music will sound weird.
On the other hand, I'm not trying to be overly dramatic, I just don't have any clue about what kind of amp/speakers LB is working with. You don't have to have a *perfect* match, you just want to be within a reasonable range. I mean, if you're gonna spend the money. In my opinion.
Can the people with technical speaker knowledge talk about computers? All of my music is digital, and I've (so far) not heard the difference between bitrates; I imagine it's my speakers, but then, I also imagine outputting good sound from a computer might be more complicated than just buying nice-looking, more expensive speakers.
thanks, ogged, as I'm now in physical pain.
You and me both, brother. This thread reminded me of the painter. I hadn't thought about her in years. God damn youth.
I have a friend at work who did this to her husband a couple of years ago for April Fools, too. I asked her, "What would you have done if he had been overjoyed?" Her face fell and she replied, "Oh Jesus Christ, I never thought of that."
They have a (unplanned) little boy just a couple of months older than Cassidy now, so I guess the joke ended up being on her after all.
think that if the speakers are seriously underpowered by the amp, the cones won't be underdriven equally, and so the whole response profile will be screwy and your music will sound weird.
Sure, but I've never really had a grossly under-powered amp or vastly powerful set of speakers. The smallest amp I've owned is the 20W per channel amp attached to my PC and it sounds great. Of course, if someone's listening to music really loud with an underpowered amp there's also the danger of clipping and blowing your speakers.
571: Aaaaah, now I understand the grand strategy. Clever. You should still try the high-end audio store thing though.
581: See, and I was going to stop talking about it altogether because it was making me feel really geeky, and I only halfway know what I'm talking about anyway. (Wouldn't w-lfs-n know this kind of thing?)
For computers, you should be able to hear the difference between a low bitrate and a high one with reasonably good amp + speakers. For comparing two different highish bitrates, you'd never hear the difference without a very good setup and a good pair of ears to match them. Again, IMO.
I left high school at 16
How does this work? Isn't 16 o-levels, not a-levels? How does one get from o-levels to graduate school?
re: 581
Computers just output analogue audio at line-level, like a Cd player. An ordinary decent hi-fi amp and speakers, connected to a computer, will sound great.
Alternatively, powered speakers will do away for the need for an amp. I have friends who use powered studio monitors [not your ordinary common or garden PC speakers, which are mostly shit]. I use an old 70s amp with some bookshelf sized Tannoy speakers.
Cerebrocrat is right right, in 586, I think. Higher bit-rates, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. I know people who record music for a living who can't tell the difference between, say, 256kbps MP3s and uncompressed audio.
I pined
after this guy in 9th and 10th grade. Pined. He had long hair and ran with a fast bunch of hippies.
Boy, is his short-lived blog funny to read.
w-lfs-n has said something about having crappy speakers. Shocking, I know.
And nice photo, Jacob. You look very contemplative.
re: 587
In Scotland you do your Highers [rough A-level equivalent] in your 5th year of high school. If your birthday falls at the right time of the year, you start school at 4 [as I did] and are 16 in your 5th year of high school.
Most people who want to go to university choose to do a 6th year, and universities increasingly require it, but technically, you can leave at 16 and go straight to college. Which I did. I also dropped out after 6 months and worked for 4 years before going back to university at 21, so perhaps leaving at 16 wasn't necessarily ideal.
589: Fucking adorable, Heebie. Exactly the sort I would have crushed on in high school.
589: Heideggeriffic!
I had a good friend all through high school who I think was crushing on me, and I wasn't sure enough how I felt about the issue to do anything about. I made a half-assed move on him right before I left for the Peace Corps (that is, visited, stayed up late talking, snuggled) but no making out eventuated -- I'm not sure whether he wasn't into it, either generally or because I was just about to leave for two years, or whether I was insufficiently unambigious in conveying that a move would be welcome. I still feel vaguely as though I screwed that one up, somehow, although I'm not sure how.
One lesson I'm trying to learn is that assuming others don't care much what I think can cause me to unintentionally hurt people who do.
Oh wow, I didn't look at the text on that page. Heebie, I'm just glad Labs isn't alive to see this.
Now you see why he looks so contemplative. He's pondering hard things.
We should run one of those comment threads up to 1000.
I fear that Heebie has been distracted by carnal desire. This Jacob guy is not a major philosopher.
It takes a lot of Concentration to humorlessly capitalize your Nouns.
592: Ah, I see. Thanks.
*Is* there a way to go on to college as an adult if you left after taking o-levels?
589: that entry is just lorem ipsum, right?
I can't think of any people in high school who I should have made the moves on and what's funny is that I can't even think of any who I suspect of being little closet cases like me. If I were to go to a reunion, I have no idea who'd be the best look-who-turned-out-gay bet. This kind of surprises me.
599: I don't think it's possible to take him seriously as a philosopher, but the feeling is similar, perhaps, to watching a beautiful woman puzzle kittenlike through differential equations.
Observable is this process as it emerges in the conception of one's ownmost identity.
You've got a lot to answer for, HG.
How does this work? Isn't 16 o-levels, not a-levels? How does one get from o-levels to graduate school?
I'm totally behind on UK education reform, but the English and Welsh haven't called them O levels in a long time. 7 years ago, they were GCSEs. They'd brought in AS levels, so that soem people did an extra 1/2 subject in addition to regular A levels. Now I think that people have to do more AS levels but they're after the first half of the 6th form instead of being after the second year. As far as I can tell, there are just a lot more tests for the English.
ttaM, Don't some Scots do A-levels too? The ones who want to go to English universities, I mean. They stay in school longer, don't they, but the Scottish Universities are mostly 4 year courses, and teh English ones tend to last 3 years. Am I completely wrong?
I'm enjoying everyone's reaction immensely. Tad bit of schadenfraude here. He explicitly rejected me, although I don't think he had any idea about the pining that followed the rejection.
It could be worse, Heebie. He could have turned out to be this guy.
603: That would be cheating, though. No sport in that.
Actually, I do retrospectively suspect a friend of mine who, I'm still sad to say after all this time, killed himself in college.
Oh, sad.
When did you come out? Were you poised to spring as soon as you got to college, or did it take you some time to figure things out?
It took waking up in bed naked with my first boyfriend (junior year) to figure things out, I'm not proud to say. Denial can be potent.
That is sad. The number of people one knew who killed themselves, or tried to, in h.s. and college is really fucking depressing.
re: 606
Most Scots don't do A-levels. You can get into English universities with Highers, but you'd usually be required to do additional SYS courses [sixth year studies, sort of an advanced Higher] in order to get into an English university as the orthodox view is that Highers are a lower qualification than A-levels. Equivalent, roughly, to the modern AS level. It'd be standard now to do SYS courses to get into a Scottish uni, too. So the Scottish system is quite similar to the English with Highers and SYS equivalent to AS levels and A levels. The difference being that most Scots would do more Highers than the typical English student would do AS levels. But I first went at a time when you could still get in with just Highers if the Highers were good enough.
re: 601
Sure, you'd do your Highers or A levels part-time at college. Lots of people do it that way. I have several friends from college who left school, worked, then studied part-time for Highers in order to go to University.
My mum doesn't have a degree but she studied for Highers as an adult* in order to get into college to qualify first as a psychiatric nurse (and then later as a social worker). It's also generally possible to get into a lot of universities by doing a full-time 1 year 'access' course designed to prepare people with no formal educational experience to go to university [in lieu of A levels or Highers].
* she actually went to my high school, under a scheme were local adults could attend high school courses in order to get into college, and was in my Higher maths class. Which was amusing, having a parent sitting behind me in class.
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to bring down the thread. He's just the only probably-a-homo I could think of. It is interesting, though, that the few people I've known to kill themselves occupy a different emotional space than other regrettably gone people. There is something special about it.
Shit, sorry for the long comment. Wine-driven garrulousness.
Wine-driven garrulousness.
But I bet the accent is great.
611: That was my freshman year roommate -- she was a junior, and didn't figure out she was gay until she fell for another freshman right after winter break. As the designated faux-sophisticate, being from NY, I spent the next month or so telling the two of them "It's okay, no one's going to hell, you don't have to tell your parents until you're ready" over and over while the two of them freaked. Not that I knew anything about the emotional issues, but someone had to calm things down or my room would have been completely uninhabitable.
Heebie's Jacob actively causes me pain.
I'm with cerebrocrat: can't think of anyone in high school I should have made the moves on, at least at that time. The ones I did moon after or very obliquely flirt with were pretty silly, totally wrong for me, so on and so forth. Cluelessness, or tunnel vision.
The one guy who agreed to be sincere with me about our fumblings turned out later to be gay. I was pleased to hear that he came out so comparatively early.
617: You damned NY sophisticates. I remember how horrified the boyfriend and I were when a girl of his acquaintance, who grew up in NYC in an arty family, casually asked us out of the blue how long we'd been seeing each other. Oh my god! Is it that obvious?!
613: Thanks for the info. I've always been curious about that.
611,617: I have a friend who didn't realize he was gay until several years after college when he woke up in bed with a woman friend's ex-husband. And even after that, having come out to all his friends, he decided he wasn't gay and it was "just one of those things" for a little while before he got totally comfortable with the idea. Poor guy; he was from a tiny little town and had to figure out that being gay didn't mean he was required to be a drag queen or an activist.
619 makes me feel guilty (again) about the time Mr. B.'s college roommate called to tell us he was gay and I said "didn't we already know that?" loud enough for him to overhear.
I'm sure he didn't think so at the time, but that's hilarious.
Which thread had the link to the article by the AEI fellow about work?
It was all faux -- I was putting on a blase "everything is fine, the two of you are in love, lots of other women have been lesbians in the past, nothing terrible is going to happen" attitude to be helpful and reassuring, and because I was pretty sure they'd buy it from me given the New Yorkiness, and of course to show off how sophisticated I was, but I was actually kind of freaked a bit. For some reason my high school had boys who were gay, but I don't remember any lesbians and I didn't know any adult lesbians. And I was kind of worried that coming out was all traumatic and I'd fuck things up by trying to be helpful. Luckily, as it happened, past the initial freakout there was no trauma.
622: No, he didn't. In fact he later thanked me for being the only person who, when he retracted (heh) his gayness, asked a few questions and then said, "well, I believe you" rather than some version of "yeah, right."
621: That's totally hysterical.
625: He subsequently restraightened? That's unusual -- there was my highschool boyfriend, but I've never heard of anyone else.
I'd fuck things up by trying to be helpful.
A constant hazard, isn't it?
627: No, he didn't. Or rather, he did for a little while, and then finally decided to just accept that he was, in fact, a total ponce.
Yeah, but in retrospect I was wildly overestimating the potential for trauma -- I got all "OMG, if I fuck up by being insufficiently supportive, or supportive wrong somehow, I could do real damage to [roommate's] fragile psyche!" when in retrospect, of course she would have gotten over the freakout she was having fine.
I googled a high school classmate of mine a couple of years back and was pleased and surprised to see her photo in an article about Seattle's 2004 Pride March.
I'd known her from 4th grade through 12th; she was "cool" and well-adjusted, was always nice to me even though I was hopelessly socially inept, and apart from having an unusually large number of ear piercings, she had always seemed pretty "normal", as loaded a term as that might be in this context. No idea when it was she knew or when she came out.
Your description at the bay area meetup of "the divorce didn't work out" was one of the most awesome things I've ever heard.
Good for you Dave L. That is great.
God. I had an incredible night, maybe 2 weeks after I graduated from high school, among friends who made confessions all night long around a campfire, beside a stream, into the dawn -- with the fog rising over the water at 4 am.
Chris confessed to us all that he was gay (we knew, he knew that), but he wrung his hands and cried, and it was chiefly about his parents. We were all going off to college in a couple of months.
I hooked up, as the kids say these days, with the guy who was to become a 7-year relationship. Rather, secured the intention to be hooking up.
Myles fell asleep with his boots facing the fire and their soles began to melt as he snored while Chris was crying.
Good times, man, good times. 17 years old.
My dad made me go to a Red Sox game the next day. That sucked.
Now that I think of it, it might be Richard Dreyfuss in The Competition.
Oh, don't cry Richard! It's all right, just because you have played so many wussy characters that people can't remember which movie was the one where you cried while having sex doesn't make you any less of a man.
621: I had a somewhat similar experience with a couple who only officially came out fairly recently but who had clearly been a couple for ages. Whenever we'd get together I'd keep catching myself making "couple-y" remarks -- not "did you sodomize her?" couple-y, just little things that, once they were out of my mouth, I realized I wouldn't say to a non-couple. I'd keep kicking myself thinking, "You don't know that they're together!" When they finally did come out, the one woman's mom asked (supportively) "So, you're a lesbian?" and the woman was a little taken aback because she hadn't quite thought of it that way before. "Well, I'm in love with a woman, so I guess if you had to label it... "
246 is like an early 80s sitcom
Specifically the movie Porky's (1982), where the character named Pee Wee does this very thing, thereby ruining his chances of losing his virginity to the most promiscuous girl in the school.
I googled a high school classmate of mine a couple of years back and was pleased and surprised to see her photo in an article about Seattle's 2004 Pride March.
I googled a friend from my Mormon mission a few years ago and came up with a photo of him shirtless, wearing a "Mr. Bear Cub D.C." sash. Awesome.
There should be a shorthand way to reference these people, who seem to turn up in college as well.
"Late bloomer" comes close, although there is some ambiguity associated with the phrase ("You mean, as in late onset of puberty?").
My sister was one of the girls that got no attention at all in HS. I have heard from any number of her classmates that they kick themselves for not recognizing what a catch she was.
Somewhat tangentially to the original topic of the thread, I would be interested in the worst things that people have encountered at the critical moment that they have chosen *not* to let be dealbreakers.
For me, it was a girl saying to me as we got naked, "Would it bother you if I imagined you were someone else while we do it?"
Even more embarassingly, I had to ask her to repeat the question like three times to be sure I was understanding her right (we were speaking her mother tongue, different from mine).
In light of the fact that I was coming off of a very long drought, and she was super hot, and I had lusted after her for a long time, I sucked it up and went ahead with it. But brother, was I not proud of myself afterwards.
Motherfucker. I lost a long comment and that makes me want to cry.
Goddamn you no crying sonsabitches! I hate crying, but strong emotions--especially anger--make me cry. I can't help it. Fuck. And of course nothing is more ridiculous than an angry person crying, so that makes me even angrier.
The night after the '04 election, when a friend of mine dared to half-heartedly apologize for John Kerry and the American people, was my last episode of teary-eyed rage. In my defense, I was pretty badly hung-over that night.
So I empathize with tears and sex.
I'd probably not like AWB if we were acquaintances in real life.
Myself, I can't read a thread with wanting to confess all my inner secrets to AWB! AWB is the Great Oz!
#633 sounds like a John Hughes movie. Well, I'd pay to see it.
Myself, I can't read a thread with wanting to confess all my inner secrets to AWB! AWB is the Great Oz!
Come to Mama, Populuxe!
"Would it bother you if I imagined you were someone else while we do it?"
No, but only if you let me pick the person.
643: Sure, but only if it's another unfogged commenter.
"Yeah, okay. What if you're that 'Pause endlessly' guy. That sounds nice."
"Would it bother you if I imagined you were a more desirable version of yourself?"
I think people who follow "Radical Honesty" would be asking that question most or all of the time.
If I knew AWB in real life, we would end married in terrible misery in a very cheap house in North Dakota, proving John Emerson right about everything.
I tried to work Econ 101 in there, but it was too much work. I'm still spending 90 percent of my day clicking on that random paragraph generator, so it's hard to fit everything else in.
Speaking of computer music, the best purchase I ever made was a tiny USB soundcard. I have never been able to justify really good or expensive speakers but this makes a huge difference.
If anyone does know of a cheap-ish brand of speakers that sound as good or better than Etymotics in-ear phones, speak up. They are my standard for clarity, which shows I am no audiophile.
re: 651
I've never listened through Etymotics, but since I don't generally like listening to music through headphones the 'speakers that are better than headphone X' threshold is pretty low for me.
But, if I was buying something to plug into a computer and I wasn't going to use an external amp, something like these:
http://www.richersounds.com/showproduct.php?cda=showproduct&pid=TANN-REVEAL-5A
I have a friend who's a professional musician who swears by these.
In this sense, I agree with Keillor. Hopefully, 10 years from now, the gayness will not be so suppressed and frowned upon.
Frowner! I was just wondering about you yesterday. Sorry to hear the strike's not going well. Are you getting support from students and/or faculty?
LB, did you look up the brands of the other pieces of equipment? Also, is the room echoey (hardwood floor, bare walls?) or somewhat dead (bookshelves can be good for sound, they absorb some sound, and aren't a flat surface?
Good. I think that's better than the alternative. My current set-up suffers from being in a room with too many echoes in the highs, and it's unfortunate.
I was reminded of it because the speakers the one flaw mentoned for the speakers linked in 525 is that they don't do well in an echoey room, (and that they sound better with a better amp).
There were, honestly, only a half serious suggestion because they sound like they're a little more serious than what you're looking for but, reading more reviews, they sound like a nice speaker.
"Well, I'm in love with a woman, so I guess if you had to label it... "
The nutritional information certainly would make fascinating reading.
