So sweet. Women's team sports comes of age. They had to do Hope like that, though. The "team" thing is big for US Soccer, I think.
Oh for fuck's sake. So criticising a teammate is like the girl equivalent of deliberately -check -a -guy- -to -the -head -and -almost -kill- him. Only worse. I had to reread the post to make sure it said what I thought it said. That's embarrassing.
Man. I don't know from sports norms, but that's some mildly delivered, measured criticism to get made an issue of. There's really that strong a no-secondguessing-the-coach norm?
Those vengeful harpies are tools of the Ryanarchy.
There's really that strong a no-secondguessing-the-coach norm?
They're framing it as a "no betraying the solidarity of the sisterhood" norm, but it really is about the coach wanting to save his ass.
Banishing Solo is more embarrassing (because the goal of sports is to win the game) than Solo's pseudo-apology, but still, it was pretty damn shameful when Hope claimed her remarks "were taken out of context" (on her MySpace if PTI is believed).
"And it's worth noting that "team chemistry" is generally bunk as far as game performance is concerned: many, many championship teams in various sports have hated each other's guts, and there are teams with great chemistry that go nowhere."
Well, yes, but they're the exceptions.
As far as soccer at least, US team sports apparently doesn't require much teamwork (or so I've read).
Every coach will be Hitler, if allowed.
Also, let's not be polite. This is the beginning of the Curse Of The Ogged. Ogged liked her before she was famous, right?
Especially a guy coach of the laydeez, maybe.
to return a favor done to me in years past:
Happy birthday, Bostoniangirl!
Well here I am in SLC airport and, thanks to a billboard seen on the way back here, I was made aware of the existence of this interesting genre of movies. Provowood!
This and the thread below seem like ugly examples of the high-schoolization of all of American life, i.e.: bow, scrape, obey, mouth the nonsense shibboleths of spirit, pride and teamwork, or be ostracized as close to literally as the mass media are capable of accomplishing.
God, I hated high school.
speaking of sports:
1) oh, John Maine.
2) go nationals!
The height of ridiculousness here is that she's the goalkeeper, the one player who least needs to work with her teammates. This really is strong evidence that the USA doesn't take football seriously - in any other country in the world, a coach who dropped their best player in a fit of pique like this would be lucky to escape with his life (and in Colombia or Turkey, probably wouldn't)
This is the beginning of the Curse Of The Ogged.
Let's just hope he never starts to fancy Randy Moss.
Happy birthday, Bostoniangirl!
Yeah! That! Happy birthday, callow youth!
14: so if I made a "we do take football seriously, just not soccer" comment, it would be pedantic, provincial, and pathetic all at the same time, right? Consider me fazed by all those P words, but by the same token, is it really our fault British schoolboys come up with such weird slang? I mean, "soccy" I could see, but "soccer"? What?
the goalkeeper, the one player who least needs to work with her teammates
See, it's this kind of thinking that's the reason why we have Brad Friedel, Tim Howard, and Marcus Hahnneman and you have David James.
I'm going to go counter. It's not just what she did after the match. During, she copped a big time attitude on the bench, making it clear that she didn't care who won. A no-confidence with other players is death for a goalkeeper. I also think there might be more history to the story than we know.
Happy Birthday, BG!
14: The US women's soccer team is probably the most broadly well-known--and therefore successful--women's team in the US. Part of the team's appeal lies in its ability to pretend to be a team like those from mythic yesteryear: good, clean athletes who like each other, follow the rules, and are the best in the world. The coach and the team did what they had to do. A US women's team that's just like every other team--full of conflicting agendas, backbiting, etc.--is going to be a much diminished team.
So maybe women's team sports haven't quite come of age, yet.
Too bad that all the controversy in the world can't make soccer any less boring to these American eyes...
Jumping on a teammate who had an pathetic outing is pretty bad form, regardless of the sport. And if that person is well-liked by her teammates, it's suicide. If she were smart, she would have kept her mouth shut and let the result stand on its own. Or at least make an unqualified apology.
North Carolina's women's soccer coach, who had previously been coached only men, said that his women players hated him and played terribly until he helped them bond using insights gleaned from, among other sources, Cosmopolitan. They've won a bunch of national championships since, although he's also been charged with sexual harrassment.
He explained somewhere that women want to "experience a coach's humanity."
Blah blah blah my humanity right here, baby.
I have no pride.
Happy birthday, Bostoniangirl!
Is this how ubiquitous the "my remarks were taken out of context" non-apology has become? Like with that o'reilly stuff. How do you take out of context something boiling down to "i was amazed to find not all dark people are uncivilized savages"?
among other sources, Cosmopolitan.
Well, no wonder he sexually harassed them, then. He was just trying to show them Fifty Techniques for Enhancing Your Orgasm!
Maybe by "out of context" she meant "given that I had reason and inclination to decapitate him with my teeth, my comments were a model of restraint."
This does sound annoyingly high-schoolish, but just sayin'....if someone like TO had said what she did, there would be an equivalent fuss.
although he's also been charged with sexual harrassment.
Yes, Marcus, perhaps too much insight from Cosmo. How was your movie?
So the US lost. The bigger story is that--with Brazil vs. Germany in the final--the women's game has reached equivalence with the men's. Hooray!
Looking into this, the goalie is an important part of the defence, beyond just defending the goal. The goalie is supposed to call out and direct the defensive players on her team. They are a coach on the field, a defensive captain.
Replacing a good goalie in the middle of championship with another that hasn't played in a real match in 3 months. It's tough to come up with an equivalent situation from another sport. I'd say, maybe a center on the offensive line in American football. The offensive line is an integrated unit, they have to work together and know each other's strengths and weaknesses and trust that each will do their job all while making the play they've been assigned. The center's job, beside hiking the ball to the quarterback, is to call out and direct the offensive linemen when he sees how the defenders line up.
Replacing such an integral player affects all of the other players in the unit. It's all well and good that the players have practiced together, but the teamwork, knowledge and sub-concious trust gets thrown out the window when that key player is replaced before the game. Losing such a player to injury is different, psychologically.
Sure, Hope may have been grumpy on the bench. But, you know, maybe she would have told the auto-goal player that she was too close to the goal before the kick. That play, right there, seems to be a massive communication failure on the part of the US defensive players.
"... but no one gets banished for it."
I don't think this is accurate especially if there is also conflict with the coach. Although it is more common with marginal players.
How was your movie?
You mean the Great Heavyweight Fights movie? Oh my god, it was fucking amazing. What a fantastic sport boxing used to be. Such a great mix of grace, quickness, technique, courage, and savage brutality.
One of the guys who was there with me turned to me during the Marciano/Jersey Joe Walcott fight and just said, "these guys do not seem human". That about covered it.
Besides how much better boxing used to be, I'd say the biggest revelation was Rocky Marciano. This unorthodox swarming attack, but just unstoppable. The fantasy fight I would most want to see would be the young Muhammad Ali vs. Rocky Marciano. The perfect clash of styles -- the most elusive boxer against the greatest "brawler" (although Marciano did have a ton of technique, so I wouldn't want to tag him as "just" a brawler). Honestly? I think Marciano would have won.
But it was great fight after great fight -- excellent fights from Joe Louis against Buddy Baer and Billy Conn (Louis was a beautifully well rounded boxer, and looked like he would do fine today), Marciano against Louis, Walcott, and then Archie Moore, two forgettable Ali fights and also Frazier/Foreman (ugh). But also Ali/Cleveland Williams, which was the first fight I've ever seen that made me really understand the "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" thing. Ali was absolutely at his peak in that fight, it actually made the 70s Ali look much diminished.
BTW, here's the famous Heywood Broun description about the Marciano/Moore fight I mentioned above:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1955/10/08/1955_10_08_104_TNY_CARDS_000248048
Oh, it was AJ Liebling, not Heywood Broun. Also the glory days of sportswriting!
The "taken out of context" defense makes me want to retch. It's so Bill O'Reilly.
Is there really a player in a team sport called hope solo?
"Taken out of context" isn't as bad as "unserious," which some jackasses are throwing around like Mardi Gras beads in the review of The Kingdom at Matt Zoller Seitz's The House Next Door. I think "unserious" is supposed to be as conclusively dismissive "taken out of context," but there's something exponentially more chickenshit about it. Still, "taken out of context" is pretty chickenshit.
In related news, thanks for the "Chickenshit" chapter of Wartime, Paul Fussell!
Replacing a good goalie in the middle of championship with another that hasn't played in a real match in 3 months. It's tough to come up with an equivalent situation from another sport. I'd say, maybe a center on the offensive line in American football.
Like, when the favored Oaklands Raiders went without their center in the Super Bowl in 2003, and got creamed?
But a major distraction for the Raiders was that starting center Barrett Robbins who went missing for most of the week leading up to the game and ended up in the hospital. Backup Adam Treu ended up replacing Robbins in the Super Bowl.
North Carolina's women's soccer coach
A fraternity brother of mine and McManlyPants, btw.
There's really that strong a no-secondguessing-the-coach norm?
Sure. I can think of lots of high-profile cases in British soccer. Player falls out with the manager, or disagrees in public -- he'd expect to be benched for a decent period, or even sold. More vindictive treatment would be not uncommon.
That's club football, though. I think dsquared is broadly right in 14 when it comes to national teams.
I think the issue here is not that she criticized her teammate but that she criticized the coach's judgment in playing a 36-year-old fading star instead of her. But it's being played as a 'you attacked the sisterhood' moment, and I know they market women's soccer as strong girls all playing soccer and then braiding each other's hair because they're all such friends, but come on. She's in hot water because she criticized the coach.
There's a solution to the "unseriousness" cliche smear. In the last seven years we've seen mounting evidence that seriousness is fucked.
I wonder if her teammates already didn't like her. It's such an overreaction, given that she was totally right and the coach sounds like he's going to be fired anyway. Y'all really don't think it's a let-down-the-sisterhood thing?
One might point out that Nike has invested many years, and many millions of dollars, in the "sisterhood" story of the U.S. Women's World Cup Team(s). Americans expect wide receivers to be prancing nitwits, Jerry Rice excepted, so a T.O. or a Keyshawn Johnson doesn't threaten to break the mask of the NFL as radically as this episode threatens to harm women's soccer's wholesome, no-sir-no-lesbians-here-sir recent biography.
Probably more like a "I'm sick of listening to that egomaniac bitch. She never shuts up." Coach benches her, they lose the game (she has a reason for the egomania, ya know), she kvetches, and then everybody on the team really wants to rip her eyeballs out.
max
['At that point, he might as well exile her, if he's not going to play her.']
Of course, the myths of "team" and "team spirit" have especial status when they wear national colors, so any dissident has to be disposed of extra-authoritatively.
I think it might be a soccer versus a different sport thing rather than a boys' sport versus girls' sport thing.
46: And Froz! Man, we're getting thick on the ground here.
They're framing it as a "no betraying the solidarity of the sisterhood" norm, but it really is about the coach wanting to save his ass.
Matt F. gets it exactly right. Why does this make the women seem weak and unready for competition, Ogged, you sexist ass, when it's so obviously the coach having made a shitty decision and having made it clear to the team that he'll brook no dissent? Solo was criticizing his decision to bench her, not her teammate's skill.
Solo was criticizing his decision to bench her, not her teammate's skill.
Well, that's just false. "I would have made those saves" is a criticism of her teammate, as is "this isn't 2004," though the latter is at least arguable. It makes them seem weak because they can't tolerate any public dissent. I'm surprised that people seem so sure that this is all about the coach; I think he's a lame duck and the quotes from the other players make them seem totally willing to throw Solo under the bus.
Given the situation with the coach, he has basically no power beyond their next (only semi-important) game. The players could have done whatever the hell they wanted to.
I only watch baseball, so all other sports are foreign to me, but even if Solo intended her comments as criticism of the coach, they came across as criticism of her teammate. The rest of the team is well within their rights to be pissed at her. Not playing her from now on, though, is stupid, if she's really that good.
This really is strong evidence that the USA doesn't take football seriously
Amen.
In other news, PK made the play (save) of the game today and played really awesome defense, actually. The other kid assigned to defense (little kid soccer = no goalie) didn't want to be playing defense and so basically didn't. His team still only tied, 1-1, but they're getting better at that whole "passing" thing.
It took a lot of me pointing out that every parent including the coach told him afterwards that that save was awesome to get him to stop being pissed at himself for letting the other team get a goal at all.
56: Well, the coach is the person who makes the decision to bench/toss a player, not the team.
If you want to criticize the team, though, you've got Solo criticizing her teammate and her teammates criticizing her. Obviously the sense of "team" isn't really there, which is the coach's fault if it's anyone's.
That said, I'm pretty sure that men's national teams have been known to bitch and snipe at each other.
"this isn't 2004," though the latter is at least arguable
Pretty sure it's not 2004.
That said, I'm pretty sure that men's national teams have been known to bitch and snipe at each other.
Yes, exactly, and it's usually no big deal. But in this case, her teammates have joined the coach in banishing the player who was out of line.
She definitely criticized her teammate, but not playing her seems to be pretty dumb. The next game isn't all that important. It's a consolation game, and she is the up-and-coming (or, uh, the starter) keeper so shouldn't be getting as much international experience as possible?
Eh, I saw her comments and it really sounded to me like what she was saying was that she wishes to god she'd been allowed to play (coach's decision). Yes, as O. said in the post, she's also implicitly criticizing her teammate, but I honestly don't think that was what she was thinking.
62: Yeah, which is bitching and sniping among teammates--as you said, usually no big deal. The problem here is the coach.
I'm surprise that not everyone has figured out that there's no real problem here, except that a the coach is a Nazi.
Practically every conflict can be resolved just by deciding which side is the Nazis.
Why can't you bitch and snipe about your teammates? They're doing the same about you. Right now. Behind your back.
Oh, right, because you're all wearing similar shirts. I forgot.
God, I hate things that remind me of high school.
The coach clearly is a problem, but the story they're all telling is that he consulted with his captains about what to do and they decided to banish Solo.
Anyway, if you want to take a feminist angle on this, it seems more worthwhile to note that the US women's soccer team is marketed as a saccharine feel-good story for little girls; it's a very feminized image of team (they're always on about how hard they work to get better and how much they rely on each other, almost never about kicking anyone's ass), and as soon as one of them acts like a real competitive athlete who cares about winning, she's literally banished from the field of play. Seriously, that's utter bullshit.
I wonder if part of the problem was that she attacked Scurry, who's pretty much a legend after the 1999 final (of course, Chastain made the covers of magazines, but Scurry's the one that stopped the fifth kick.)
Aren't that captains around the same age/generation as the non-benched goalie? That might play into it. At least Lily, who's quoted in the article, has been on the team since the 90s, I think.
Scurry's the one that stopped the fifth kick
It was one thing to choose which opponent was most likely to be weak. It was another thing for Scurry to choose her tactics. By her own admission, Scurry decided to improve her chances by ignoring the rules of the penalty kick.
In a quick and practiced move, Scurry bolted two steps forward -- in violation of the rule -- and cut off the angle for Liu Ying, her opponent. With superb reflexes, Scurry then dived to her left and tipped Liu's shot wide of the goal. That one stop would shortly give the United States the championship, and new-found fans of soccer would admit they were teary-eyed watching Scurry's celebration.
Since then, the poised goalkeeper has become one of the most popular of the Yanks, but there has been a minor swell of criticism that the Americans had to break a rule in order to win.
'I've seen things on the Internet,'' said another goalkeeper, Mike Ammann of the MetroStars of Major League Soccer. ''People are saying, 'Wow, Briana Scurry cheated.' But they don't understand that part of the game. What Briana did was perfectly normal. She took a step and the referee didn't call it. I don't call that cheating.''
Oops, I meant to include this:
Scurry is on vacation, and chose not to come to the phone when she was called the other day. But her position was staked out soon after the final game when she told The Los Angeles Times: ''Everybody does it. It's only cheating if you get caught.''
60: Sure. I very nearly said something like that in my last comment re. marketing of women's soccer (and women's basketball). It is annoying.
They basically never, never, call steps forward on penalty kicks. If you move to either side, on the other hand, you'll get called.
The coach and the oh-so-offended-players are being lame, here.
On the other hand, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to cultivate a sense of inclusion on a team. So I don't understand Flippanter's disdain for the entire notion of circumscribing one's behavior with that in mind.
I saw her comments and it really sounded to me like what she was saying was that she wishes to god she'd been allowed to play (coach's decision). Yes, as O. said in the post, she's also implicitly criticizing her teammate, but I honestly don't think that was what she was thinking.
Don't make me agree with B people. Unfortunately, the reason the coaches decision sucks is that the other goalie isn't up to par anymore. It's tough to make that argument without sounding like you're getting on the case of a teammate, but hey, too fucking bad.
Her teammates are idiots for not backing her. Fine you retards, lose every fucking game until you get your priorities straight.
and as soon as one of them acts like a real competitive athlete who cares about winning, she's literally banished from the field of play. Seriously, that's utter bullshit.
It's not bullshit; it's the reality of support for a lot of women's sports in the US. There are related complaints about the WNBA sexing up their athletes. But what are they going to do? They have to sell the sport. (Note that men's teams do somewhat similar things--MJ's first "retirement"?--but it's not as obvious.) Of the various ways in which women's sports can meet the market halfway, the US soccer way is the least offensive.
The more I think about it, the more I'm on her teammates' side, though not her coach's.
I didn't know Solo was actually a real family name. That is so cool. Now where are the Skywalkers and Kenobis?
Greg Ryan was talking it up before the game. After the game, the Brazilian players said they were inspired:
The Brazil players didn't mention Briana Scurry or Hope Solo in their post-match comments. Instead, they talked about what Ryan had said earlier in the week, and how they'd shown him up.
As we reported here before the game, it all goes back to the remarks Ryan made at a Monday press conference, where he said, "Brazil's primary tactic was fouling us to break our rhythm" in the U.S.-Brazil friendly match played at Giants Stadium in June. "We had more of the ball, and their response to that was just to foul. Brazil has tried to break our rhythm by chopping our players down. The last time we played Brazil, they didn't even try to play football -- they just kicked us from behind." He also called for FIFA to assign a referee who would call those kinds of fouls.
But what are they going to do? They have to sell the sport.
Gah. How about they just sell it like the men's sports, because it's fun to watch your national team crush the teams of other countries.
It's amazing to me that the team would be complicit in this bullshit. You know what got people watching in the first place? WINNING.
I want to lord our victory over those filthy fucking foreigners. Send the Brazilians back to the rainforest. Make the Germans want to kill themselves like Hitler. No one gives a shit about how you all read each others diaries and all have a good hug afterwards. WIN motherfuckers.
gswift also cheers for Microsoft.
He consulted with his captains [INCLUDING GENERAL PETRAEUS] about what to do and they decided to banish Solo.
Ya sure.
It's not bullshit; it's the reality of support for a lot of women's sports in the US. There are related complaints about the WNBA sexing up their athletes. But what are they going to do? They have to sell the sport.
Seriously, Tim you're the only person I know of who might be helped by studying the criticisms of consequentialism.
How about they just sell it like the men's sports, because it's fun to watch your national team crush the teams of other countries.
Tell us the number of women's team games that you've watched in the last five years.
Seriously, Tim you're the only person I know of who might be helped by studying the criticisms of consequentialism.
What positive benefit would that bring?
Yeah gswift! Tell us! I bet you like watching girls play sports, don't you?
Gswift has coo-ooties!
Well here I am in SLC airport and, thanks to a billboard seen on the way back here, I was made aware of the existence of this interesting genre of movies. Provowood!
Yeah, I live here and get to endure these fucking ads all the time.
This also makes me want to hurt people. George VanKomen, chair the citizen group Alcohol Policy Coalition, called the flavored beverages "alcohol on training wheels" that are "teaching our kids to drink."
The fruity, sweet beverages are "alcoholic training bras" because they appeal to young girls who don't like beer...
It would make you say extremely stupid things much less often.
85: I'm betting the number is zero.
87: How is that a good thing?
Tell us the number of women's team games that you've watched in the last five years.
I often have to follow stuff on ESPN on the web because I work nights, but I try and catch the women's World Cup when I can.
I tried WNBA, and even went to a couple games here in town early on, but WNBA just sucks. I think it's because the basket is too high/women are too small. If they lowered the hoop so the women could dunk on each other maybe it'd be more fun to watch.
I'm betting the number is zero.
You're way off. Women's soccer is good times. Women's basketball blows. Women's tennis is also good.
Is there anything else worth watching? No women's football, baseball isn't really a very good spectator sport for me, and I'd rather cut myself than watch golf.
I'd rather cut myself than watch golf
And who wouldn't?
I gotta admit, I will watch gold sometimes. Then again, I've smoked a lot of pot in my day.
I mean, it's no NASA TV, but, like a lot of pot, you understand?
Sure, I watch gold like a hawk, but I meant golf.
I've enjoyed some wine in my time, too.
I bet you like watching girls play sports, don't you?
Gswift has coo-ooties!
Heh. I've got two daughters in AYSO. I'm out there running them around the field at the park down the street. Shouting friendly encouragement, "That pass was terrible! Do it again!" I'm starting to sound like Costello in The Departed out there. "No one's going to give you the ball! YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT."
I mean, it's no NASA TV, but, like a lot of pot, you understand?
There's nothing quite like coming in to a room and finding someone zoned out in front of NASA TV.
"What are you doing?"
(slowly, slowly, glazed look turns your way:) "I don't know."
I fucking love NASA TV. Remember a few years back, when that experiment about generating power from a long tether suffered a catastrophic failure? I was watching that shit live. It looked exactly like every other moment on NASA TV, except something on the screens in mission control started blinking red. Awesome.
Oh God, NASA TV. I was so ticked off when my cable company made it share a channel. I really zone on watching the planet roll by. I remember watching once as the flight path went up much of the US East Coast at night. Wow.
So Timbot tried to score a point by getting gswift to say that he doesn't watch women's team sports, but gswift has actually gone to WNBA games? Has there ever been such megapwnage?
It is pwnage that shines with the fire of a thousand suns.
I've traveled to see the NY Liberty play at the Mohegan Sun resort in CT. Becky Hammon rules.
I've seen a WNBA game live. It was awesome -- we had seats in Madison Square Garden that were almost as good as "Spike Lee seats" but for, like, $40.
How do female American soccer players support themselves? Male American soccer players have it bad enough, playing in the MLS (with a few noteworthy exceptions), but I don't know how the women deal with their finances.
How do female American soccer players support themselves?
Sports bras, of course.
I watch the railfan programing, vintage country music shows, and mule training instructionals on RFD, but NASA tv is too much for me.
I'd prefer the NASA channel to E! any day.
Thank you all for the kind birthday wishes. I didn't manage to plan anything myself, but I wound up tagging along on an already-planned cookout. It was quite enjoyable. One of the benefits of not having a job is that I didn't have to work from 2-10:30 on my birthday. And I almost commented Becks-style but for teh fact that my creepy roommate was using the computer. (My laptop died a while ago.)
and there are teams with great chemistry that go nowhere.
I think that this depends on both the sport and how you define chemistry. I don't think that this is true of rowing. In seat racing, it's really important for everyone to pull just as hard when the person one doesn't like is in the boat as when one's friend is there. But once the boat is set, it's important to make sure that everyone works together. Rowing doesn't really have stars. The boat has to work together as a unit.
I didn't know there was a NASA channel. Is it sponsored by Tang?
NASA TV's Public, Education and Media channels are available on an MPEG-2 digital C-band signal via satellite on AMC 6, Transponder 17C in continental North America.
They also say it is streamed on line, plus they have podcasts.
I just streamed it; the logo in the right looks familiar. I think a college I attended may have carried it on their tv system.
Um, this kind of thing is certainly not restricted to the women's game, nor to club level play. I think Ryan looks bad because of how the team performed, but I don't think the decision to send Solo home is surprising in the least. I expected it as soon as I saw her interview.
I was hoping someone would bring up Keane. I think we can agree that it wasn't quite the same.
"Mick, you're a liar... you're a fucking wanker. I didn't rate you as a player, I don't rate you as a manager, and I don't rate you as a person. You're a fucking wanker and you can stick your World Cup up your arse. The only reason I have any dealings with you is that somehow you are the manager of my country! You can stick it up your bollocks."
Happy Birthday BG! I can now say this without fear of jinx, given that a)it is no longer your birthday, and b)the Sox have won the division. Happy Birthday, and may "S" feel the sting of karma. You won't find me shopping at WF, at least.
And the fact remains that the stated reason for her dismissal is broken trust, not taking a shot at the coach.
112. Sure, Keane's tirade was more impressive, but what's the argument? That it comes down to rude words? Solo's criticism of Ryan and Scurry was still pretty damning, even if not as forcefully expressed. And a major reason that Keane did not come back to the team is that his teammates publicly backed McCarthy.
112: But that was Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy. Who deserves more respect? Who played better for ireland? Who better managed fucking Sunderland, for fuck's sake?
Yeah, the Keane blowup doesn't even seem close. Beyond what he said, as I understand it started with him giving coaches shit about how practices were run, then devolved into "I'm leaving, no, I'm staying", and that outburst at the coach.
Hope, on the other hand, responded to an obviously wrongheaded last minute substitution with what amounts to, "WTF, put me in so we can win".
The argument is that the way Solo's actions were condemned tells us something about the ways in which women's team sports differ from men's. An ancillary point is that her criticism was actually pretty mild in that it wasn't personal at all, and she was immediately contrite, so banishing her seems pretty extreme.
I think ogged is right way up thread that her teammates must already not like her or something. This level of outrage at her saying "I'm disappointed" at what was a clearly bad decision just doesn't make sense. Also, sounds like it's working for them to make the story about Solo instead of about how the coach fucked up and lost the semifinal. Which he did.
What do we think is the real reason he put in Scurry, anyway? Is he just an idiot?
Yes, he's an idiot.
You only bench your hot player if you're so stupidly dedicated to "team" play that you're willing to sink your chances just to be "right". You know, follow your program or else.
Thinking about it, I recall watching the Portland Trailblazers while Rick Adelman was the coach and how often he'd bench a player, even though the player was strong and doing well. Rick would stick to his rotation schedule, no mater what.
And then, when you realize you fucked up, you get defensive and place the blame on the player you benched.
Team play is one thing, but you don't have to love your teammates in order to win.
Or, you know, I've had too much beer and such this evening.
I think ogged is right way up thread that her teammates must already not like her or something
I thought his point about the difference is why should this, why should anything matter more than fielding a competitive team? Not to the coach, that's obvious, to the other players?
Yes, he's an idiot. And I think ogged is right that the Solo affair is a very convenient diversion for him. That said, a lot of the discussion (not just here) is becoming pretty revisionist. I wouldn't say Hope Solo was the hot player of the team. The U.S. very nearly lost to North Korea, remember, partly because of her error. And it is hard to imagine that the result against Brazil would have been different if she had been in goal; the U.S. were comprehensively outclassed. (I write this as someone who has been supporting the U.S. women's soccer since well before they became widely known.)
118 - I disagree with the claim that her criticism wasn't personal; "I would have made the saves" was a pretty direct criticism of Scurry. But I'm sympathetic to your assertion that there are still differences between women's and men's team sports. My wife certainly claims this is true of recreational soccer: she says that if you argue with men on the soccer field you still go all out for a beer afterwards, but if you argue with women they may not speak to you for years.
I thought his point about the difference is why should this, why should anything matter more than fielding a competitive team?
That's how sports work. And there's a pretty serious argument to be made that fielding a player that all the other players think is a shite does make the team less competitive.
I'm not buying the alleged gender difference here. As dsquared said, this doesn't happen much at national team level. But that's because with most national teams the coach is smaller than the team, and generally less powerful than the 'name' players on the squad.
In club football, men's club football, this sort of thing happens all the time. You could write several paragraphs just with examples from the managing career of Alex Ferguson alone. Where a major player is critical of the manager in private, or says something to the media that suggests less than perfect compliance with the management regime and then you find that major player, not playing, or being sold even when it's obvious that the team will suffer without them.
Happens all the time.
As to the coach, sure. But do you get the kind of statements from other players, about "forgiveness," etc., quoted in the post?
re: 124
No, not really. That's a bit odd.
I wouldn't say Hope Solo was the hot player of the team. The U.S. very nearly lost to North Korea, remember, partly because of her error. And it is hard to imagine that the result against Brazil would have been different if she had been in goal; the U.S. were comprehensively outclassed.
Yeah, but she was the hot goalie. Beyond the insanity of "I need someone quick in the goal against Brazil, how about I put in the 36 year old who never starts in there anymore", it was obvious the communication was off with Scurry in there. What the fuck was with Leslie Osborne diving at that corner kick like that?
And what the fuck was Ryan doing with his other substitutions? Pulling Heather O'Reilly? Ryan you asshole, down by two goals against a faster team is not the time to pull your fastest striker. Can we get an audit of his finances to see if he was bribed or something, because it's hard to believe he's genuinely that stupid.
...it's hard to believe he's genuinely that stupid.
Well, there is precedent from the men's game. Don't get me started on Steve Sampson.
I add my concurrence to the birthday well-wishes for BG.
Scurry in goal, Solo complaining on sidelines -- lose 4-0.
Scurry in goal, Solo no longer with team -- win 4-1.
I'm with Ttam in 123. When your team is not the hot sport of the nation, solidarity and paying your dues and that kind of thing are considered incredibly important, and I'm not surprised that she got blasted for those comments.
I have no idea why she was benched in the first place. But it's almost military-esque in the united front you should portray to the public. Is the team ethic, at least.
The argument is that the way Solo's actions were condemned tells us something about the ways in which women's team sports differ from men's.
ogged, I'm unclear if you're arguing that 'women can't be competitive because they're too worried about being friends, stupid girls' or 'women's sports are expected to put on a marketable show about how everyone likes each other.'
I think there's some evidence for the latter, but not much for the former. Even teams in sports that are successful in the U.S. value that sort of show (the Steelers all won for Bettis, the negative comments about Manning whining about he's awesome but his teammates let him down.)
--
The rationale being reported before the Brazil game was that Scurry had faced Brazil twelve times and that her style of goalkeeping was more suited to oppose Brazil. I don't know enough about soccer to know if this is bullshit or not (to me it seems that mostly once it gets to the keeper you're kind of hosed anyway).
Even teams in sports that are successful in the U.S. value that sort of show (the Steelers all won for Bettis, the negative comments about Manning whining about he's awesome but his teammates let him down.)
Relatedly (and a better example than my "MJ retirement" jibe), the NFL Commissioner suspends players for behavior unrelated to football or the players' teams or even court decisions. The standard belief is that this attitude toward disciplining players is new, motivated by PR concerns, and broadly supported by players. And it amounts to the same sort of thing: players support the suspensions of other players who are guilty of bad PR behavior. I do the concern with PR is greater and more restrictive among US women's soccer supporters.
to me it seems that mostly once it gets to the keeper you're kind of hosed anyway
Great keepers are important. With a good strong goalkeeper behind them the defence are confident with their positioning, particularly on set-pieces as they know the keeper is going to come for those balls that he/she can take and leave those that are best gathered by the defence. They know the keeper will properly marshall their wall, know which crosses to go for, when to catch, when to punch; they know their keeper is going to be brave and go in at the feet of oncoming strikers, etc. etc. Goalkeepers are important not just for shot-stopping but because of the role they play in the wider defence.
That said, goalkeepers are quite often weird/eccentric/angry guys.
Cala, my point was that the "breach of trust" language used to justify banishing Solo was peculiar to the women's game, and also that taking that language seriously makes the women seem like they value unity and comity more than winning. I don't think I've argued that others players don't get kicked off teams, or even that a player can't be so disruptive that being kicked off wouldn't be justified.
peculiar to the women's game, and also that taking that language seriously makes the women seem like they value unity and comity more than winning.
I don't understand why this sense is being attributed to "the women's game," rather than just the US women's soccer team. You don't see women being shy about negative comments in tennis, for example. (And the US women's soccer team probably does rightly value the appearance of unity and comity more than winning, especially as the winning is likely to come anyway.)
makes the women seem like they value unity and comity more than winning.
I think this is true. I think this is how many coaches unite their team. I don't think it's specific to women's soccer. I think it's true of many teams that aren't receiving much attention. (Being in the spotlight changes a lot of things.)
I don't think it's a gender thing. I think it's entrenched notions of respect and longevity and newbies shouldn't act arrogant or they'll be put in their place, at the expense of the entire group.
Haven't you all seen Drumline? It doesn't matter that Nick Cannon is a genius drummer, if he won't tow the line and pay his dues. He's got to learn that he can learn from other people.
Or toe the line, if the line is too heavy to tow.
You don't see women being shy about negative comments in tennis, for example
Yes, and it's totally awesome.
And tennis isn't a team sport. It's team sports, not the gender.
Did you guys really play team sports in high school and not see coaches try to instill this kind of thing? (And comically fail, in the case of my high school soccer team.)(But the select team had more of this loyalty first stuff.)
136 is right.
The only thing that's weird is the cod-marketing/self-help bollocks in which her team-mates spoke.
Did you guys really play team sports in high school and not see coaches try to instill this kind of thing?
It's much easier to imagine this on a high school team, more on a non-competitive high school team (like mine), more still in middle school, etc. I think coaches tend to make adjustments to the interpretation of "team behavior" as the importance of winning increases, until you get to the explicit position of (IIRC) Jimmy Johnson, who said something like, "I treat all the Pro-Bowl receivers the same."
I only played organized sports through my freshman year of high school and it wasn't really a part of the coaching. It's considered whiny and unclassy to criticize your teammates in public (though certainly not in practice), but no one talks about forgiveness and trust and affecting the group. The standard answer in men's sports is that nothing is a distraction (except for a teammate being killed or paralyzed) and nothing off the field affects what happens on it.
It's much easier to imagine this on a high school team, more on a non-competitive high school team (like mine), more still in middle school, etc.
You think it increases as the skill level goes down? No way, I think college teams would have it more intensely than high school teams.
And since women's soccer is fighting tooth and nail to be taken seriously, I'd so expect them to have the loyalty shtick even more so.
The only thing that's weird is the cod-marketing/self-help bollocks in which her team-mates spoke.
Well, that was the point of the post, after all.
Oh. I thought the point of the post was that she was being over-punished for her comments. (Which is kind of true, but she probably knew how cuttingly her comments would be taken, when she said it.)
re: 144
Yeah, my point was more that the particular phrasing was odd, but the idea that a team would be really fucked off with one of their members basically whining to the press that they are too the best player is not odd. But I realize that was probably your point, also.
I assumed (no offense intended!) that the self-help/marketing bollocks was more because they were American [ahem] than because they were women. But I am happy to be corrected on that.
143: I don't think it's a skill level issue, but a competitiveness issue. I think a team that is really, really head-and-shoulders above its competition--perhaps like the US women's soccer team--can afford to care about team stuff more than winning, and teams with a very high skill level in a sport that people don't follow--perhaps like the US women's soccer team--may have to care more about the PR aspects of the sport than about winning. I don't think this is gendered, particularly; I think it appears gendered because women's sport doesn't have anything like the fan support that the major men's sports have.
I assumed (no offense intended!) that the self-help/marketing bollocks was more because they were American [ahem] than because they were women. But I am happy to be corrected on that.
This might be true, actually, or at least that they're American women, with their team being marketed in a particular way which the athletes seem to buy into completely.
peculiar to the women's game, and also that taking that language seriously makes the women seem like they value unity and comity more than winning.
If you take the language literally and seriously, sure. I think there's bad reasons to take that literally and seriously for the same reasons that I don't buy that teams win championships because they wanted it more or that they had more heart.
And like everyone else, I don't think it's as much gender as much as it is media-posturing for a sport that gets most of its endorsements for being all-American role models for 'millions of little girls.' The team's been heavily marketed as wholesome and good sportswomen.
I don't think it's a skill level issue, but a competitiveness issue.
I think there's two separate ethoses at play.
I think in middle school sports there's a lot of "It doesn't matter if you win or lose" etc. But that's not quite what this is. This is almost more military-esque, like "We'd rather hang you out to dry if you challenge authority without having the proper credentials than win this one battle."
It's shocking that it played out during a World Cup game, but who knows what the team dynamics were, leading up. The team doesn't have a huge turnover. The older players have been there forever, and I'm not too surprised that a newbie mouthing off gets put in their place.
I think a team that is really, really head-and-shoulders above its competition--perhaps like the US women's soccer team
I've only been following this World Cup in a fairly desultory fashion, but is it really true that they are head and shoulders above the competition? Maybe that was true several years ago, but now? I know they head the FIFA rankings, but I wouldn't have thought they were head and shoulders above, say, Germany? [Who I've seen play on TV more often than the USA and who look tremendous].
I don't think this is gendered, particularly; I think it appears gendered because women's sport doesn't have anything like the fan support that the major men's sports have.
I totally agree with this.
is it really true that they are head and shoulders above the competition?
Not anymore, no.
151, 153: I didn't know; that's why I included the "perhaps." I could have been clearer, it appears.
Maybe if you watched some women's team sports, like a real American male...
If real American males (or, interestingly, females) watched women's team sports, Hope would have gotten away with it.
I do wonder if there is more of backstory here than has come out based on these comments of teammate Cat Whitehill:
Whitehill said switching goalkeepers was not the problem, but what followed was.
"There was a lot of emotions going into that Brazil game. There was just a lot going on, and we didn't handle it well," she said. "It was just handling the pressure that came with it, the semifinal game, listening to the media talk about the goalkeepers. There were a lot of surrounding things."
...note that this is going into the game.
Too bad Hope's World Cup "blog" has no entries after Sept. 16.
Rather than making this about gender, I think that we should focus on the Nazi angle. Athletic teams are all just little toy Schutzstaffels.
I'm struck by the specificity of Solo's criticism: I'd've made those saves is a lot like I'd've hit that pitch (that my teammate struck out swinging, ending the game) or I'd've caught that pass. She can't actually know -- is she assuming she'd've been standing in a different spot before the shot, would've read the other player's moves better, could've stopped that own goal? It's all way to contingent, which makes her comments, ime, far out of what you'd hear from most top athletes..
It's all moot, becaue they would've lost in the final anyway. German women rule.
I'm struck by the specificity of Solo's criticism: I'd've made those saves is a lot like I'd've hit that pitch (that my teammate struck out swinging, ending the game) or I'd've caught that pass. She can't actually know -- is she assuming she'd've been standing in a different spot before the shot, would've read the other player's moves better, could've stopped that own goal? It's all way to contingent, which makes her comments, ime, far out of what you'd hear from most top athletes..
It's all moot, becaue they would've lost in the final anyway. German women rule.
The only thing that's weird is the cod-marketing/self-help bollocks in which her team-mates spoke.
God, I really hate to say this, but see 122:
My wife certainly claims this is true of recreational soccer: she says that if you argue with men on the soccer field you still go all out for a beer afterwards, but if you argue with women they may not speak to you for years.
Right, I hate to say it, but it may be a reflection not of women's sports, but of female interaction in general. We are expected to subordinate individual will to collective comity.
Hence, for example, the constant hedging language you see in women's presentations:
"I think that p"
"It seems to me that p"
"I dunno, I just wonder if p"
Rather than simply: p, goddammit.
See, Solo erred in her presentation. She betrayed the larger game.
"I'll have a p"
"Just let me p"
"Damn I have to p like a racehorse"
etc.
161/2: Hope's MySpace friend brought out this 2004 Olympics story:
There's no doubt in Briana Scurry's mind. If she had been the starting goalkeeper four years ago in Sydney, the U.S. women's soccer team would have won the gold medal.
``I put myself into that entire game,'' she said. ``And I've always felt -- and I still feel -- that if I were playing, we would have won.''
The criticism is remarkably similar, but the context is fairly different (the game was four years ago, not four minutes ago; the player she's faulting was probably not on the team any more and, dare I say it, maybe there was also another coach).
"I hate to say it, but p"
"I hate to say it" had actual content there, bub. I hated to say it because it's a fucking red herring! You wanna take this out back?
You'd think twice would be enough, but once more to be sure:
German women rule!
German women rule!
Yeah, for like the next thousand years.
German women rule!
I heard that CharleyCarp has that phrase tatooed across his chest.
Yeah, for like the next thousand years.
I kept trying to think of how to make that joke; good work, Stormtrooper.
Yeah, for like the next thousand years.
We can all joke about it, what with our tattoos and all, but this (from the AP) is a pretty impressive acheivement:
Germany went through six games in the tournament without yielding a goal and outscored the opposition 21-0, setting other records in the process.
The Germans thwarted the flowing attacks of Brazil, which routed the United States 4-0 in the semifinal. . . . Germany, bidding to host the 2011 Women's World Cup, was the first team to go through a major senior competition without yielding a goal. It has not given up a goal in 619 minutes in World Cup play, the last one four years ago in the finals against Sweden.
I just watched the Germany/Brazil game, Charley, and the Germans won, yes, but they basically beat the crap out of the Brazilians. Did you also root for the Pat Riley Knicks?
In my very first college dual meet, the guy next to me was Jens-Peter Berndt. I've never recovered from the humiliating, crushing butt-kicking.
I hate those germans.
Beat the crap out of the Brazilians.
Heh.
Losing to Berndt is no shame. Ms. Solo's "betrayal" of the nation is certainly trivial compared to Berndt's.
Not that there's anything wrong with it.
Right, I hate to say it, but it may be a reflection not of women's sports, but of female interaction in general. We are expected to subordinate individual will to collective comity.
I've noticed this too, but I think it's too simplistic to chalk it up to women being asked to "subordinate" themselves to the collective while men are not. Men are socialized not to let various forms of individual assertion interfere with the maintenance of collective unity. Hence men steretotypically do all kinds of public jockeying for status and even fighting, but the team framework stays intact. At the end of the day the dominance hierarchy is established and everyone has a beer together, etc. Women seem to take things more personally. But men who really won't stay within the team framework can still be in a lot of trouble.
Generally, I don't think there's much if any difference in how much subordination of self men are asked to do in society vs. how much women are asked to do. But the self-subordination men do to serve big institutions gets better PR than the self-subordination women do to the "little platoons" of the family. Perhaps that's sexism, or perhaps it's because big institutions make less inherent sense than families, so they need better PR.
..."better PR" sometimes includes greater rewards, sometimes not. Depends what levels of the big institutions you make it to. The game is of course rigged so that the rewards far outweigh the sacrifices up there.
Unhappiness this morning ChezCarp: big headline in the Post sports section was US Finishes Third, little subhead that Germany wins title, story goes on about how, before the Germany game, the US played strong and blah, blah, blah.
Randomly, JA Adande (not my favorite) contrasts the Kobe situation with the Solo situation, and references Deborah Tannen to suggest the difference is a reflection of the differences between male and female culture:
The backlash following Solo's sniping at her coach and Briana Scurry after Greg Ryan started Scurry over Solo in the World Cup semifinals reminded me of Deborah Tannen's book "You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation."
Tannen, a sociolinguist, researched the differences in communication within genders and between genders, and she reached the conclusion that, even within the same society, women and men constitute different cultures. Women bond by talking, while men bond by doing things together. Men try to one-up each other through conversation, while for women, trying to stand out through conversation is frowned upon. Any woman trying to put herself above the group quickly will find herself outside the group. That's what happened to Solo, who was left out of the consolation game after Ryan met with team leaders.
I'm not in love with this explanation, and suspect there is some age bias going on. But I thought it was interesting, both for the reference to Tannen, and for the comparison with Kobe (which hadn't occurred to me, itself a tell).
re: 183
There are a lengthy article in the Guardian today about this topic. Essentially debunking the whole idea and showing that meta-analysis of pretty much every piece of research ever done on male and female language use suggests there's pretty much no difference -- the meta-analysis specifically included papers on competition in language.
Link? If I'm understanding what you say, I'm surprised by it.
at first glance, it looks rather good ...
The passage reproduced above is a good example. Baron-Cohen classifies nursing as a female-brain, empathy-based job (though if a caring and empathetic nurse cannot measure dosages accurately and make systematic clinical observations she or he risks doing serious harm) and law as a male-brain, system-analysing job (though a lawyer, however well versed in the law, will not get far without communication and people-reading skills). These categorisations are not based on a dispassionate analysis of the demands made by the two jobs. They are based on the everyday common-sense knowledge that most nurses are women and most lawyers are men.
Oh, sure, beat up on Ali G's brother why doesn't she.
Huh, thanks. Some of that I'm familiar with (Language Log did a really nice dissection of that "The Female Brain" book), but I had thought studies tended to show reasonably divergent patterns of verbal behavior between the sexes in some regards. I suppose not.
re: 189
THe meta analysis in the paper suggests that on almost all measures the statistical differences are tiny. There are a couple of exceptions.
Yup. I'm usually fairly good at remembering to be suspicious of 'men are like this, but women are like that' studies, but things like, say, differences in interrupting behavior, I'd seen mentioned often enough that I thought they were fairly consistently identifiable and significant enough to be grossly apparent. I was apparently insufficiently suspicious.
In fairness to Tannen, I googled Language Log on Tannen, and the two entries that I saw were respectful of her work. I should further note that something quoted from her at LL suggested that she wouldn't have a problem with ttaM's #184. To wit, she said that if men and women are raised in effectively separate groups, inter-gender communications will be inter-culture communications. That seems straightfowardly plausibly, and it's what suggested to me that Adande's application of Tannen's work to Solo might be inappropriate (in my mind, because of age). I noted the story because I thought some people--inc. some women, IIRC--had a similar explanation.
In one of a posthumously published collection of essays, edited by his daughter, Christoper Lasch demonstrated to my satisfaction that Tannen was not very worthwhile.
How many mentions is that? Has the buzzer gone off?
Deborah Tannen is perfectly fine pop self-help for couples with standard-variety gendered communication issues.
Other than that, meh.
