First, we must appreciate the differences between weight lifting, body building, and weight training.
http://stylizedfacts.com/coruscation/2007/09/weight_training_body_building.html
And between power lifting and Olympic lifting. Squats are power lifting, while snatches and clean-and-jerks are Olympic lifting.
Power lifting also includes the dead lift and the bench press, but these aren't funny names.
When squatting, it's important not to think about whether anyone's looking at your butt, especially if it's a skinny butt. At the heavier weights, near-fatal injuries can result from butt anxiety.
The bodybuilding leaves me cold, but I'm impressed by his custom woodworking.
Mutatis mutandis, much the same is true of snatching and jerking.
He even dispels the myths about bodybuilding and masturbation.
"if this were true it would mean that no elite athletes would ever be allowed to have sex."
"No sax before the fight."
If comment 1 is not a joke, then that's exactly the kind of thing we want to avoid, and which this guy, our Scooby, does a good job of avoiding.
The bodybuilding leaves me cold, but I'm impressed by his custom woodworking.
You don't get a line item veto on the homosexual agenda, IA.
There isn't a difference between weightlifting and weight training. There's differences between styles, and your eventual goals, but there's no lifting that will make you 'toned' or anything like that. Weight is weight.
He even has body-shaving related advice! It's one-stop shopping for Unfogged!
http://fitness.scoobysworkshop.com/shaving.htm
Seriously, though, it didn't answer my major home gym question: how can I install a pullup bar that will hold my weight? Especially in a rented apartment so I can't do major drilling?
Man, this guy approaches everything he does with incredible dedication and precision. Did you see the houses he built? Freaky.
mounting brackets to increase the surface area under strain, just wood screws into the doorframe. After removal, spackle or toothpaste if you hate your landlord.
how can I install a pullup bar that will hold my weight?
I've been fun of mercilessly off-blog for this, but I have a door gym and it totally works--a perfectly fine pull-up bar with no drilling at all. You do need a doorway with a frame, but most places have at least one of those.
12: I had a (roughly 5-1/2 foot) roommate in college who had one of these, but it was *just* above my line of vision. The fourth or fifth time I brained myself silly walking into his room, he took pity on me and took it down.
Nothing you do for a few minutes a day will have any affect on the size of your arms.
Obviously he's not really very serious about masturbation.
re: 12
Those look interesting, but I wonder if my weight would pull part of the door frame off.
The idea of the design is that most of the force is applied to the wall, and the frame isn't really supporting much weight. It's the old "normal force" from physics. I think it basically works as advertised, but I've found that you do need the frame to at least keep it in place.
But his diet ideas, which are in part sensible for portion control and increased vegetable eating, are insane. He suggests that one avoid food with flavor, near as I can tell. No jambalaya, no guláš, no thousand-layer pancake, no thanks. The way to cook kale is with some bacon, vinegar, and pepper; freedom in the kitchen is priceless.
I had an obsessive friend who was in great shape, who refused to cook with fat. He was wiry and quite strong, inclined to messiness but compulsive about anything mechanical; perhaps a kindred spirit. A colleague who is a fiftyish serious runner also leans compulsive. Not to deprecate, useful no-shit advice about exercise and diet in a sedentary fast-food culture is a good thing, but to seriously suggest greens with no sauce is out of balance.
12: How late did you have to stay up to come across that? (I used to have something like that. I took it down on "no bike shirts if you're not a good bicyclist" grounds.)
I think I saw it on some fitness equipment retailer site. When I went to their own site, I was slightly embarrassed, but hey, it works.
but hey, it works.
The only justification that matters, to be honest. I don't like buying exercise equipment because it mocks me for its disuse. So do gyms I join, but if I plan it right, I can avoid passing by them.
I didn't read the nutrition stuff, but the bodybuilding stuff is good, clear and sane as Ogged says.
In the Sixties, Boys Life—that's right—had a regular column/feature in this same vein, and much of what he says has been in the bodybuilding books for many decades. But it is coherent.
Pushups on fists is new to me, but he makes it sound plausible. I'll have to try it.
Pushups on fists is new to me, but he makes it sound plausible. I'll have to try it.
That's how I've always done them. It keeps the wrist perpendicular to the ground and parallel to the force, which seems like a good idea since it's almost certainly the weakest body part involved in a push-up. Mostly I just never felt comfortable bending my hands so far back and then pushing on them with decent force 30+ times.
17:I use a tablespoon of dressing on a 2 cups of salad every day.
I am Atkinsy, and have just lost my taste for grains. Although, IIRC, Atkins allows lots of whole-grain carbs. And I don't worry about fat.
There are other good sites out there, but this one gets the Bob Seal of Approval. Dumbbells are the best.
Come on guys, where's the ridicule? This is no fun.
Would eating one of these count as lifting weights? Because I think I'm in love.
Incidentally, was watching the remake of Get Carter the other night, and Sly was watching tv, laying on the bed belly-down, with arms hanging over the edge. He was moving his arms, w/o weights, in a short fly action very very fast. No, not only fly. Intertwine fingers, raise to chin, lower to floor, repeat very very fast. Didn't really get it.
25: Ha! In the New Yorker article on David Simon (the creator of The Wire), Simon mentions that he was raised in a conservative Jewish family that kept kosher until a friend gave his older brother some bacon. Truly the devil comes in the form of a delicious food.
Um, I get that this is one of those "hey, I'm interested in this and so are a lot of people reading this blog so shut the fuck up and don't change the subject" posts, but I'm really kind of amazed that there are this many people men who are this hung up about exercise and body image stuff.
I guess everyone gets to have hobbies, but it's weird.
Know what would really go great with that burrito? A nice side of lard.
28: I don't seriously believe that you're amazed. Also, you shouldn't start comments with "Um", because it signals that the comment will be condescending.
What pushes it over the line from just large to scary is the sausage gravy. I kind of like sausage gravy, but filling a burrito with it is weird.
I kind of like sausage gravy, but filling a burrito with it is weird.
It really is, as the article says, "food porn." It's more to look at and think about than to enjoy in reality--I'd guess that the people who think those are good (apo excepted) are people who think they hate "political correctness."
Right on, B! That's a random opinion that I can fully endorse.
Aftr I failed to ake the Olympic weightlifting team back before you guys were born, I lost interest in the sport.
That burrito looks disgusting. And I say that as someone who loves a proper fried breakfast.
It's more to look at and think about than to enjoy in reality
I like bacon, sausage and ham as much as the next guy &mdash even if the next guy is Apo &mdash but I found that photo nauseating. Literally.
It's funny, that burrito is obviously overkill in an almost theatrical way -- kinda funny! no shit, bacon and sausage AND ham, ha ha! -- but the inclusion of sausage gravy on it all just crosses a line.
John that's funny: I also failed to make the Olympic weightlifting team before I was born. Peas in a pod.
I still love Krista's site. It's just seriously good writing about weight training, nutrition, and more. You can get a feel for her approach in this interview.
My training now has a few components. First, I love variety and novelty. I am continually looking for new challenges. I keep the constants in there, but I love finding new little tidbits or setting little mini-goals. Weight training has given me the confidence and body control to try new activities and do moderately well at them. Second, I aim for all-round achievement. If you can do a huge 1RM but your heart tries to climb out your nostril when you go up a flight of stairs; if you're so inflexible you can't wipe your ass properly; or if your arteries look like the fatty equivalent of some crazy hoarding cat lady's house, then you aren't fit. This is certainly an endorsement for elements of the Crossfit style of approach. I do think you can have it all, and still achieve in the areas that are important to you. You can't perform 100% in every single respect, and elite performance takes focus, but nevertheless you can enjoy moderate development in all aspects. This will enhance rather than detract from your abilities. I think the idea that strength training is some special thing that has to be done separately from everything else has resulted in a lot of poorly structured, myopic training.
Third, I choose quality movements that are based, to some degree, in "real world" tasks and demands. When I teach people to clean and press, I call it "pick up a thing from the floor and put it on a high shelf".
Finally my training has to be fun! I try to be playful with it. After all it is a bit silly to be out dragging a sled full of cinder blocks around...
Also, you shouldn't start comments with "Um", because it signals that the comment will be condescending.
Um, I think that's why she did it. Literally.
I don't seriously believe that you're amazed.
I really am. At least, that men who are otherwise bright and intelligent, and who brag on their not giving a rat's ass about fashion and makeup, are like this. It's the same impulse that gets women fretting about pedicures and weight loss, and I'd expect my male peers to be a little more aware of feminism and hence less uncritically hung up on this shit. (Maybe hung up, sure; after all a lot of smart feminist chicks are. It's the *uncritically* hung up part that gets me.)
Also, you shouldn't start comments with "Um", because it signals that the comment will be condescending.
Um, thanks for the advice.
Um, we just had to read 100 posts about cute shoes. It amazes me etc. etc.
I thought men fussing about body image would be exactly the kind of femming up of masculinity that you would be in favor of, B. Men should do more housework, take care of the kids more, be willing to look pretty with long hair and...fret about their waistline.
no shit, bacon and sausage AND ham
Oh, I bet if you look hard enough, you can find some shit in there.
Also, that burrito looks awesome, you philistines. Think of the gravy as breakfast salsa.
These posts always depress me, because they remind me of my inadequacy.
All that I'm regularly able to manage is brisk walking. I used to do ashtanga yoga at home, but my DVD on the computer (plus now the whole computer) so now I don't. I'm out of shape now, and i can't really afford a gym. What I'd love is a few sessions with a trainer, and what I need is a workout buddy.
but there's no lifting that will make you 'toned' or anything like that. Weight is weight.
Semantics, of course, but I would say better toned almost right away, but never buffed unless you do something with the weight.
I like his point on getting in and out. I always see people sitting around taking long breaks. Make your lifts manageable so that you don't need to take breaks, and you'll get a much better anaerobic workout, great for your heart.
Um, I get that this is one of those "hey, I'm interested in this and so are a lot of people reading this blog so shut the fuck up and don't change the subject" posts
Um, B, you're aware that you're commenting on a post at Unfogged, right?
46
BG- There is absolutely nothing wrong with brisk walks. Nothing. There's sooo much hype out there and so much of it is crap. It discourages and intimidates many. Internet is good for searching out workout partners. Many women, especially, look for workout partners.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with brisk walks.
Caveat- As long as you not eating that burrito during.
Somewhere on his site, Guru Scooby says that if you only have time for one activity, make it cardio, even if it's just a brisk walk. So you can still be an acolyte, BG.
I'm really kind of amazed that there are this many people men who are this hung up about exercise and body image stuff.
I just re-read the thread up to your comment, and I'm not seeing anyone hung up about body image, nor exercise, unless caring about exercise at all makes someone hung up?
what I need is a workout buddy
IYKWIM.
55: What, Ogged counts as people now?
47: "Toned", at least as it applies to women and weightlifting usually means "You can get in shape by lifting 14oz soup cans, which will make you toned without building unsightly muscle." It's practically a game of spot the error.
I second the recommendation for Krista's site. It's clear, clearheaded, and contains lots of useful advice.
43: No. I don't actually want men to adopt the more fucked-up aspects of being a woman. Part of that whole "not actually hating men" thing, you know.
53: Um. Okay. In this thread it's pretty mild, but I think there's plenty of evidence on the site that a lot of us are kinda uptight about this stuff. Which is distinct, you know, from things like "I just really enjoy swimming/biking." No one enjoys not eating/reading about what they 'should' eat to lose weight/fretting about their waist size.
'hung up" makes it sounds like its something bad.
brisk walks are a good way to start exercising, doing vigorous stuff right away doesn't work well
its a pretty good site for covering everything thouroughly. still some misinformation like 'must eat 5+ times a day' and 'workout once a week for 'advanced' gains'
Um, I enjoy thinking abotu nutritional value of my foods and keeping track of my weight and bodyfat and lifts and stuff.
I always thought "toned" meant "not worrying about being visibly cut or body fat or that kind of thing, just trying to have a reasonable amount of healthy strength." At least sometimes. Though I'm aware it also can mean "I want to lift weights while continuing to look anorexic."
In a society where daily life offers unlimited junk food and no exercise at all, you *have* to be hung up (in the sense of having some amount of obsession with fitness) just in order to stay healthy. Not to mention attractive.
62: You "enjoy" it. As in, reading calorie counts is a Fun Activity that you would recommend to someone asking "hey, what should we do this evening."
I don't believe you.
64: Mmmm, you have to make an effort to, say, walk or bike instead of driving, or to seek out stuff that isn't junk food, sure. But that's not the same as worrying about your dress or pants size. And I wouldn't call it obsession.
Mmmm,
Not quite as bad as "Um, " but still unnecessary.
65: Is that really so unbelievable? Some people play Scrabble.
Consider that i don't have any negative association with competition around body aesthetics, either.
which is to say i don't have any reason to dislike it. it gives me something of a problem to work at, and goals to acheive.
67: I'm with you on 'Um', but you have to leave me 'mmm.'
I agree with B that it's easy to become too obsessed, but I'm also aware that it's easier for me to say that because I've never felt the need to diet. Which is fortunate, because I like eating too, too much. I am totally screwed in about five years when the metabolism goes away.
A moderate amount of obsession was useful for my mother when she started working out (for the first time in her life, at age 50!), but what kept it reasonable is that she had lots of different things to obsess over: she could measure inches lost, and weight, and body fat %. Which meant that when she stalled losing weight, she could still see that she was making progress.
"You can get in shape by lifting 14oz soup cans, which will make you toned without building unsightly muscle."
I see. Yeah, you definitely need more than 14 oz. soup cans to get tone. 5 lb cans at least.
Given that we're all aware of how hung up women are about this stuff, I don't see why it's surprising to learn that men are too.
72: Oh sure, a big part of why I am, imho, pretty healthy about this stuff is that I'm lucky enough to have always had the socially approved body type, more or less. Not that this is a guarantee (since a lot of women who do as well are still obsessed), but along with whatever other factors and good luck I've had, I'm sure that helped.
74: Maybe because men are often really dismissive of women talk about this sort of thing. Including expressions of surprise that guys are hung up about it *to the extent that they apparently are* (as opposed to "at all"). Just a possibility.
we're all aware of how hung up women are about this stuff
Presumably "how" s/b "that"?
Really? Because I'm not aware of *how* hung up, exactly, "women" as a class are about height/weight stuff.
If you are, that's really fucking amazing.
Not my usual role to defend Bitch, but 'hmmm' is pretty innocuous. She and Marcus are both right. Making an effort to be lifestyle active is all that's needed to stay in reasonably fit, but that's harder to do here than in other societies.
men who are otherwise bright and intelligent, and who brag on their not giving a rat's ass about fashion and makeup, are like this
Ummm...I exercise for self esteem. I'm the smartest guy at my gym.
Seriously, people exercise for a combination of reasons. Its a reasonably socially acceptable form of obsessive behavior, it feels good, it can be social, it is good for you and it makes you look better. Everybody has a different set of reasons.
On that Burrito, it made my screen smell of bacon and lard. Gotta go eat.
I believe teo's point was that if one follows your suggested substitution, "we're all aware of that hung up women are about this stuff" does not make any sense.
So teo, WMYMBSALB?
That is to say, Why must you, mmmm, be such a little bitch?
80: Of *course* people exercise for a variety of reasons. Please see 60.2.
It's kind of nice to see someone taking over the role of resident little bitch, now that Ben's gotten too busy to play it properly.
As for your substantive objection, b, fair enough. I don't mean to imply that I am aware of the precise extent to which all women are concerned with body image issues, and I think that was clear from the context of what I said.
B, I'm completely missing why you were critiquing teo in the first place, since as far as I know it's true to say that women in our culture and time do tend to have body image hang-ups, and that people posting here are aware of it. Something about egregious overgeneralizing?
88: Oh, I was being pissy (probably overly so) about his "well we all know this, so why should you be surprised that guys have it too?" thing, which seemed sort of snotty to me.
Theres a large range of negative and positive forms of being 'hung up' on something. I think the men's shock is more that women's understanding or at least communicatino fo their thinking of body aesthetic management is so pervasively negative.
As in, reading calorie counts is a Fun Activity that you would recommend to someone asking "hey, what should we do this evening."
I enjoy reading nutrition labels, because I like knowing what is in what I eat, and in general, just like knowing stuff. I generally don't read calories, though. I focus on sugars and the ratio of good fats to bad fats. I also like to see how many ingredients there are which I could not find in my own kitchen.
I wish nutrition labels had more information, because it would make shopping more fun.
I also wish that all beers had to list their alcohol content.
I associate the phrase "nicely done" with The Wire.
91 is insane. I read the damn things, but given a choice, I'd much rather read the New Yorker.
89 is upsetting me a lot, and I don't even know how to respond to it. I really don't understand why b is always so quick to interpret what I say in the least charitable way possible and to respond with personal insults when I object. I don't know why I even bother engaging with her anymore.
Couldn't we speculate about the Kotsko / Holbo ? Kaufmann triangle instead? Something is afoot. They've sworn an oath of silence.
91: Dude, that's nuts, and I'm someone who reads all the inserts on prescription medicine just out of curiosity.
I'm kind of with Rob in being perfectly happy to soak up information just because it's there and you never know when it might come in handy.
Teo, B's style of communicating is B's style of communicating. Don't take it personally and don't be upset about it.
And B manages to troll you suckers again.
94: Oh! I'm sorry. I honestly thought you tended to snipe at me, and obviously I'm wrong. It's probably simply a tone thing, and I apologize for misreading.
FWIW, teo, I had you down on the list of "Guys who enjoy sniping at B," too, although I couldn't tell you offhand what comments that was based on. But I figured everyone was playing, and there were no real hard feelings.
Also thanks Cala for asking, seriously. Otherwise I'd have just gone one being snotty to Teo for no reason.
B, you're getting beat up pretty good in this thread, aren't you. I actually feel sorry for you.
103: Huh? Not at all, I don't think, especially now that the Teo/me weirdness has turned out to be nothing, apparently.
(Except for Ned, who I'm pretty sure *is* on the "guys who enjoy sniping at B" list, and happy to be there. Well, and Ogged, but he founded the club.)
Um, I get that this is one of those "hey, everyone's gotten sucked into personality issues so shut the fuck up and don't talk about the original subject" threads, but I'm gonna anyway.
No one has mentioned this reason (though it may have been implicit for some) for lifting heavy things: It makes you stronger. I've been doing weight training for about 7 months now and I have muscles I didn't used to have. I ran for 2 miles the other day before my legs got tired, a definite record for me. It's cool.
I don't know what "sniping" means. Is it like baiting?
106: Personally, I think "baiting" is good-humored; "sniping" is that kind of kidding-on-the-square thing where one pretends to just be baiting someone who one actually kind of dislikes.
105: That's the awesomest reason for lifting heavy things, and is why I used to love weight training (and should start doing it again, dammit).
104
Was just kidding. Too bad Unfogged doesn't allow emoticons (sp?).
Teo, B's style of communicating is B's style of communicating.
NOTE: Not really! Let's all shake hands, kiss and make up, and engage in malicious gossip about the Holbo-Kotsko-Kauffman entente. Priorities, people!
Sniping is taking little shots at someone. I don't think that baiting or sniping is necessarily good humored. One can definitely bait in bad faith.
John, I'm going to have you killed.
One of my parents' friends, who's known me since I was a baby, delights in red-baiting me. For example.
If I'm trying to point out that someone is being condescending, it is in fact because that person is presenting herself in an unlikeable fashion for no good reason.
101: God help us, but...is the interpersonal shit becoming a problem again? Because if there's a gender-based difference in how bantering/sniping is getting perceived--and my impressions aren't necessarily the same as yours--I think I want to at least be aware of it. YMMV.
Baiting is setting someone up in a predictable way. Sniping is taking a potshot.
I never really read teo as anything but very gentle. This could be an argument for emoticons except then I'd be sniping.
No one has mentioned this reason (though it may have been implicit for some) for lifting heavy things: It makes you stronger.
Yep. We've got a small kitchen, and the KitchenAid mixer is on a shelf way over my head. When I've been lifting, getting it down is no big thing. When I haven't, I have to get a chair to stand on and make a production of it. Strength is convenient.
(In further "look how pathetic I am" news, I'm relaxing a bit today after yesterday's filing, and figured I'd take a long lunch and go to the gym. I haven't been in so long (maybe six weeks? two months?) that my branch has closed. There was a sign on the door directing me to an alternative ten blocks away. So I took a really long lunch and went anyway.)
113: Sigh. Okay, Ned, I appreciate the concern; but I really don't welcome the advice, which comes off to me as itself condescending.
That's right, LB -- you're done with that monstrous brief! Yay for you!
114- Problem? This blog is the most tame in terms of interpersonal shit I have ever seen....by a long shot.
Being strong is nice. Plus, my knee hurts less when my leg muscles are strong and pulling their, uh, weight. I also feel more coordinated when I'm working out regularly.
114: I really didn't think there was all that much bad feeling going on, but I do see a pattern where B says something aggressive or overblown, and a bunch of guys make snippy remarks about what a jerk she is, with the snippy remarks showing up sometimes in the absence of anything particularly remarkable from B. I was figuring it was a running gag on both sides, rather than genuine hostility -- I was kinda surprised that Teo was actually sad about it.
101: I think you are probably assuming that "Guys who enjoy sniping at B" and "guys" are synonyms.
That's a misconception, though. Some of us are afraid of B.
I really don't understand why b is always so quick to interpret what I say in the least charitable way possible and to respond with personal insults when I object. I don't know why I even bother engaging with her anymore.
Every time we talk with thee,
That bitch butts in constantly.
When she does, you never speak
Must you always be so meek?
Teo get angry!
Teo get mad!
Give B the biggest lecture she's ever had!
She wants a brave man—she wants a cave man
Teo, show her that you care, really care for B.
"Guys who enjoy sniping at B" and "guys" are synonyms.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply this.
I never really read teo as anything but very gentle.
My not doing so probably has something to do with my never having met him; you have, right? Anyway, I stand corrected.
I dunno--since I've managed to make this thread all about me (which I swear to you people I do not set out to do) I'll just confess that I've been getting a little tired of the "B is crazy/trolling/enjoys making trouble/is rude" thing lately. It's entirely possible that this is just some weird mood of mine and that's not the case, but for the record, while I realize that that kind of thing started as friendly piss-taking (which I love), it seems to me (e.g. 113) that it's gotten to the point where a lot of people take it seriously, which I am not loving.
Maybe it is just that I comment here too often or pursue arguments too strenuously. Or maybe I just need to up the meds. But I've been kind of getting the impression that I'm almost becoming the resident troll, and I honestly have no idea how or what to do about it.
I also wish that all beers had to list their alcohol content.
That's what the toll-free number is for. Just this morning I called to check the alcohol content of Milwaukee's Best.
Some of us are afraid of B.
Yeah, see, I'm okay with that.
I'm sniping with you, B, not at you.
130: Ogged, I think you are joking, because I think you know that I do not deliberately set out to troll, ever.
But this is what I'm saying: I honestly don't know if you are or not. If so, it's a mean joke because I was being entirely serious; if not, then it's a problem that I don't know how to address.
131: You're second on the list, right after John, Tweety. Watch your back.
It doesn't matter if you set out to troll, does it?
OMG HTML tags, I forgot! Okay, 133 and 129 are jokes, but 132 isn't. I *assume* people can tell the difference? But I'm honestly not sure.
134: It does if your solution is "troll less," since obviously if I do not think I'm trolling, that's not something I'm capable of doing, is it?
see what happens when you disallow emoticons?
Whoa. Before I couldn't stand B, but now I'm sympathizing with her. Though I'm sure it's because of sexist rationale that she would completely despise
I get a sort of constant sense that you have gone beyond impatience and are legitimately angry when you detect a man who has an inaccurate notion of what women think, even if he's making a joke. But you don't have any problem with it when the situation is reversed.
Meh, we should probably take this off-blog.
130: Ogged, I think you are joking, because I think you know that I do not deliberately set out to troll, ever.
I believe you, but a lot of your comments really do feel like they are deliberately provocative, or deliberately uncharitable/incomplete readings of what other people say. Is it something that comes from, I don't know, responding really quickly to your first impression of comments read in haste? Or a conversational habit of starting with an extra extreme statement, because it's fun and people should know that you're just kicking things off, and the idea is to work out the nuances later?
126: I've been noticing the same thing a bit -- that thread about catcalls where two or three guys called Ned oblivious for never having noticed women being harassed on the street, and no one remarked on it, and then you agreed and suddenly there was a heavy discussion of how hostile you were. I figured it was just the usual running gag getting out of control, but I am sorry that it's happening enough to make you uncomfortable.
I shouldn't say "you don't have any problem with it". I should say "you don't seem to notice it". Sorry.
Meh, we should probably take this off-blog.
Oops, sorry.
136 continued: And it does matter, to me, if I'm truly perceived that way because it bugs me. Jokey "quit trolling, B" is fine; but if I'm really pissing my pretend friends off, then that sucks.
141 is literally the first thing I've ever read in my life. I am 100% serious.
... say, that is fun! Thanks for the idea, rfts!
125: Yikes, that was a joke ! I'm doomed without emoticons.
141: I know I say things strongly, but I don't think I am uncharitable, especially among friends. Mostly I figure I'm understood here as saying things strongly (partly as rhetorical persona construction, partly just for fun, partly out of a genuine habit of being direct) but not actually being mean. I deny Ned's implication that I dislike men or excuse things from women that I don't tolerate from guys.
142: Thank you.
140: Noted.
141: Or a conversational habit of starting with an extra extreme statement, because it's fun and people should know that you're just kicking things off, and the idea is to work out the nuances later?
See, I'd totally take that as a description of B's posting style, but I wouldn't call it trolling. And I'm starting to get the feeling that the kidding around about 'trolling' has turned into a pattern where people aren't cutting her the conventional amount of conversational slack.
a conversational habit of starting with an extra extreme statement, because it's fun and people should know that you're just kicking things off, and the idea is to work out the nuances later?
Yes, exactly. And probably a bit of the other--quick skim reading--which I *think* I'm pretty good about backing up and correcting when it happens.
Oops, sorry.
I meant me and B. The rest of you can ride this train all the way to the last stop: Accusationsofsexismville.
playing innocent while trolling is really one of the fundamental techniques of trolling.
Kidding about trolling becomes trolling about kidding.
The rest of you
The rest of us? What's that supposed to mean? Way to otherize, sexist.
154: But now you're trolling about trolling.
Okay, take it off-blog, people.
I don't know anyone here personally. Maybe those who know each other are better able to detect each other's nuances and tones of voice and implied emoticons.
I've appreciated the education that several women here have provided me into how women think and how annoying they find some prevalent aspects of our patriarchal culture. But this is a very enlightened comments section with hardly anyone who is actually unaware of, or disagrees with, the basic premises of feminism. I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have some nuance to their opinions, not act as if they are motivated by prejudice or ignorance.
mixer is on a shelf way over my head. When I've been lifting, getting it down is no big thing. When I haven't, I have to get a chair to stand on and make a production of it
When you commented at Megan's about wanting strength just to be able to enjoy playing, I didn't get it, but this is serious and obvious.
Do the kinds of simple strength exercises, like pushups, that Scooby talks about present problems, or are they really repellent or something? I'm not being sarcastic, they have always worked for me but there maybe dimorphism and ymmv idiosyncrasy beyond whether or not doing them is unpleasant.
When I was practicing I would sometimes shut the door and do pushups or situps to relieve tension.
When I was practicing I would sometimes shut the door and do pushups or situps to relieve tension.
Geez you could just masturbate like a normal person.
I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have some nuance to their opinions, not act as if they are motivated by prejudice or ignorance.
Be the change you want to see in the world, Ned.
I'm not envisioning a lot of success for this exhortation beyond that.
Yeah, I think both of those things can have genuinely bad effects, especially online, even if they're done in a spirit of fun. The latter, especially, in an argument, is a lot like what trolls do -- if you try to argue against the fun extreme view and the person you're arguing with slowly adds in nuances until the (to your mind) unreasonable view becomes reasonable, it feels like you've been trapped. I know that I, at least, can have a hard time knowing how to respond to that feeling. It's hard to find a straightforward but pleasant way to say, "Arrgh! You're being maddening! (Even if you don't mean to be.)"
I agree with 141, and also think that B is frequently uncharitable or at least overhasty in interpreting others' comments.
Another contributing factor to the impression of B as a troll is the one Emerson has identified, to wit, the Random Opinion Generator whose deliverances are defended to the death with little concern for avoiding inconsistency (or at least the appearance thereof).
Be the change you want to see in the world, Ned.
Have I mentioned yet how hilarious I find this phrase?
"Look at me! I'm increased childhood vaccination rates! Wait, wait, now I'm sustainable agriculture in the developing world!"
161: Agreed. I should just say "We should give people the benefit of the doubt".
This does not necessarily apply to drive-by commenters.
"I'm a bunch of at-signs representing laughter!"
The rest of you can ride this train all the way to the last stop: Accusationsofsexismville.
We got there at comment 139, if I'm not mistaken.
162: That's what I'm trying to get at: if the effect is genuinely bad, then I guess I have to either quit or comment a hell of a lot less. Mostly I think/hope that the effect *isn't* genuinely bad because for whatever reason this place is pretty collegial. But like I say, maybe I'm wrong.
my impression of b-as-troll has a lot to do with inconsistancy (or at least impenetrability to my readings) of any subjective-objective distinction, so that i never know how totalizing the statement is meant to be, and how much is just blowing off steam
167: If you agree with my assessment, couldn't you try double checking your reading of other people's comments before you reply to them, and qualifying your arguments more when you make them? Or even just saying, "I could be wrong" or "I'm saying this partially because I want to see how the most extreme argument works out" or something like that?
Couldn't we maybe just let B be B? We're all imaginary here anyway, so it's not that hard to back away for a while if we're getting annoyed.
And by "a while" I mean about 15 minutes, but I'm unusually bad at staying mad.
And what the attendant lord said. Jesus, it's not like we don't have a bunch of strong personalities here -- do we really need to have a sharing circle about how B., particularly, could be just a little bit nicer and more appealing?
173: pass the conch shell, I'll start braining people with it.
I think the talking stick is better for that. Conch shells break easily, at least if you're hitting people hard enough.
169: Good advice in some respects, maybe, but since this really is coming off overall as the "gang up on B" thread and I don't think it's such a one-sided issue...
It seems to me like it would get awfully frustrating if practically every time you said something it was virtually guaranteed that someone was going to pipe in and tell you to "quit trolling" without seeming to make any genuine effort to take what you are trying to say seriously. Feeling obligated to qualify every assertion with "I could be wrong" could seem awfully denigrating if you didn't have confidence that the people receiving your assertions were inclined to entertain the possibility that you could be right.
Not that B needs me to speak for her by any stretch. But any advice that B should soften her tone kind of irritates me if it's not balanced with the counter-advice that people could cut her a fucking break once in awhile.
"No one has mentioned this reason (though it may have been implicit for some) for lifting heavy things: It makes you stronger."
I was lifting upper body and trying to run. With running, I was having lots of problems with aches and pains that I never had until just a few years ago. Then I thought to do leg lifting (deh). It has made running much less painful.
176 gets it right.
She's the only regular who regularly gets accused of trolling. Other than James B. Shearer. But it's appropriate to lash out when people are ganging up on you, and ganging is not fair.
169: I think that I do, not infrequently, say "I could be wrong." And I know I make a point of saying I *am* wrong when I realize it, and apologizing (e.g., to Teo upthread).
117 is the problem though ... talking stick loses its (original) purpose if Cala won't give it up.
Comity?
I was hoping someone would back me up on 139, but otherwise, comity.
I think someone mentioned Laughing Yoga before. This is a club that has such an event on October 21 in DC. I don't really like to laugh, so it's not for me. Here's a clip-
Today, we'll study important facets of Laughing Yoga. These powerful questions and tools include: how does the human mind work? What is the meaning and purpose of life? Understanding laws of the universe which govern our life? Understanding negative emotions like anger, fear, anxiety, greed, guilt, sadness, lust and attachments. and cultivating positive attitudes like appreciation, forgiveness, service and devotion.
Wait, lust is negative now? Why do I never get the memo?
186: Please, like you've never read an Emerson comment before.
That memo came out a very long time ago, LB.
Your favorite partner forgot to send it to you. But when you do find it, it needs to be rewritten by tomorrow.
No, the partner sent the memo, but the junior paralawyer is busy reformatting it into Comic Sans and putting in citations from the 1930s.
189: Stop snooping into my dreams. (Oddly, last night's work-related anxiety dream also included a whole lot of half-eaten Easter candy. Goodness only knows what the symbolism was there.)
I like to see the occasional comment from Brock, 'cause then I don't wonder if he's still alive.
Why do I never get the memo
One of my favorite muppet moments is Cookie saying "Me not get memo? Is OK, Me can adjust!" The persistence, not knowing it's in the face of a lost cause, is just perfect. I say this to my monitor sometimes, in hope that some timesuck will go away.
This discussion actually turned out a lot better than I was anticipating. To clear up some things:
1. Where I'm coming from here, and I had thought this was obvious from my past comments but maybe it isn't, is that I'm really, really averse to conflict, and I try to avoid it or prevent it whenever possible. Thus, I don't bait or snipe or whatever; if I say something clearly hostile, it's because I'm genuinely angry at someone and have reached the end of my patience with them. I don't enjoy the argument game, so I don't play it.
2. This, obviously, is a very different approach from b's. For the most part I try to stay out of her way, because I know that she's mostly just kidding and no amount of arguing with her position is going to do anything. Sometimes, however, it seems clear to me that what she's saying is based on a misreading of what someone else has said, and I decide that pointing that out might prevent the argument from escalating. When I do this, however, she seems to interpret my comments to mean that I'm playing the "let's bait b" game, so she responds in kind. Sometimes this goes on for a long time, and I get increasingly angry and frustrated until I finally lose my cool and yell at her, because my interpretation of the interaction has been that I was trying to calm things down and she just refused to listen and started yelling at me. These incidents, which have been few but memorable, are probably the source of her and others thinking that I'm one of the guys who likes to bait her.
3. Since I'm considered one of the b-baiting guys, b naturally assumes that my comments directed at her are intended as needling and not entirely sincere, so she interprets them uncharitably and responds in her usual inimitable fashion. They are, however, intended completely sincerely, and her replies make me feel like she's jumping all over me for no reason. This makes me sad.
4. For a long time, I didn't pay this much mind and just started doing things like not reading threads where b took a major role. Lately, though, in my fragile emotional state, I've found it harder to ignore, and I knew that I would eventually have to just come right out and say how I felt. I have to say that the response I was expecting from b was nothing like her actual response once I brought it up in this thread.
5. The only people in this thread that I have met are eb and LB.
Wait, lust is negative now? Why do I never get the memo?
Many might feel the same way with greed as well.
Feeling obligated to qualify every assertion with "I could be wrong" could seem awfully denigrating if you didn't have confidence that the people receiving your assertions were inclined to entertain the possibility that you could be right.
Sure. I meant this suggestion specifically in the context of mitigating the situation that I speculated about in 141b. Or, even more so, the situation that can come up when both of the conditions in 141 arise at the same time. I'm just thinking that the answer doesn't have to be "either people need not to mind this, or I have to comment less."
I'm sorry for the ganging up on B feeling that's emerging here -- I honestly think that it happened because people are trying to give an honest answer to B's question of why people respond to her in a certain way, and what could be done to make that happen less. I guess I also think that people do cut her a fucking break (even more than!) once in awhile. But I'm sure more fucking breaks could also be reasonably cut.
I really enjoy flicking shit at B, but I don't feel that I'm actually attacking her. I definitely enjoy the combative aspect of blog commenting. Harm is not necessarily intended.
You've reduced me to tears over and over again, John. You heartless bastard. I will never love again.
My pity **loves** to be spurned. Mmmmmm!!!!