My partner last night, after reading my handful of comments on the Yoo thread, just said "You waste way too much time on this."
My flirtatious, randy banter with all comers here is more or less the way I talk in real life, so I never worry about getting in trouble because of it. The missus would be more likely to get suspicious were I being all proper and observant of boundaries ("Just what are you trying to hide, mister?").
Mr. B. knows about most of the people I've slept with from here.
And, like the enormous hypocrite he is, he gets ticked at me sometimes for ignoring him while I'm online.
My wife knows I comment on the odd blog [actually mostly just Unfogged]. She also is broadly familiar with what a blog is. When I've met up with people from Unfogged, I've told her I'm going to meet people I know via Unfogged, so it's not as if it's a big secret.
I also meet up with friends from an on-line music thing -- we meet both for general social stuff and occasionally to make music -- and my wife sometimes comes along.
She's generally not interested in what goes on on-line. So we never really discuss it.
Oh, lordy.
It's okay, Ogged. That one time is still our little secret.
My wife thinks that Ogged and Jake are very nice people. Charmingly overprotective, perhaps, but very nice.
My wife reads and comments on blogs, mostly parenting sites, so she knows about the whole dynamic. She'll check the site when I tell her there was a thread about something she'd find interesting. Meetups were more of an issue (and DCon moreso) no so much because of meeting anonymous people- she goes to book clubs etc. that were formed from email lists- but because we already have pretty limited time together. As I said in the other thread, dumping the kids on her for a weekend is not good, and that would take away time from being with the kids as well. At least meetups are when they're sleeping.
I wonder if people just mentioning that they frequent a site where they "hang out with a bunch of people" is enough to inoculate them from suspicion: it's that site I mentioned way back, remember? Or do they have to mention that it can get a little bawdy?
All my school friends think having internet friends is mysterious, weird, possibly dangerous, and obnoxious. But my school friends drive me nuts.
Past boyfriends were initially curious about it, but then didn't care.
I had no issues and find LB's neuroses completely bizarre.
The SO doesn't read Unfogged, but she's looked at it a few times, and I sometimes tell her about one or another amusing thing that comes up, or any more significant events like Ogged's cancer. She's got her own imaginary friends, though, who she's been talking to for far longer than this place has been around (not to mention her LJ page, the planned Typepad site, etc.), so it's no big. We both were into various long-term listserv groups before blogs took off, so even though we're too old for a lot of the newer stuff, it's not so alien. I just wish I knew as much about .mp3 blogs as she does.
Oh my wife would not understand at all. "You mean, you are not working your ass off 100% of the time so that you can buy more presents for me? No sex for you, slacker!"
find LB's neuroses completely bizarre.
You say the sweetest things, pumpkin.
No sex for you, slacker!
Fine, then. I'm going to go post that on the internet, bitch.
So, Apo, how's that spycam working out?
Funny, just this morning my wife was yelling at me about wasting time chatting with imaginary people I'll never meet in real life.
Unfogged doesn't know about my wife.
My wife is very aware of the blog, and often reads it. She has got mad in the past about disclosures she feels ought not to have been made. Mostly she finds the discourse, and certain of the people, very annoying. And she associates the discourse with her undergraduate years, and regards it as appropriate if at all to those years, to that stage of development, and something she feels would normally be outgrown.
This doesn't apply to all discussions here, nor by any means to all the personalities here, some of whom she thinks come off well.
She's basically concerned and a bit protective, that the absence of nuance and non-verbal cues can make hurt feelings—she means mine—and worse a real possibility.
18: You really need to move that shampoo bottle out of the way of the fake one, TLL. All I can see is a shoulder and an ear.
Unfogged doesn't know about my wife.
What makes you so sure?
Oh my wife would not understand at all.
So she doesn't know? Man, that would make me nervous to be keeping something like this from an SO. The potential for finding out and misunderstanding seems really high.
Confession: I've given Landers and Ruprecht shit for letting their wives' ignorance of Unfogged become an issue, but I've never mentioned the blog &mdash or any blog, including my own, back when I maintained one &mdash to my wife. Note the careful wording: I give myself an out because I haven't let it become an issue.
Mostly, it's circumstance and personality. My computer and the Internet are essential to my work, and I'm interested in and comfortable with this kind of technology. My wife needs a computer only for email, and she'd prefer to steer clear otherwise. (She's older than I am, and in some respects there's a generation gap between us.) There are other issues at work, but that's territory I should probably steer clear of.
The SO doesn't read Unfogged, but she's looked at it a few times, and I sometimes tell her about one or another amusing thing that comes up, or any more significant events like Ogged's cancer. She's got her own imaginary friends, though.
This describes my situation as well. I'll forward her the occasional thread, and she's even commented once! What a glorious day that was for our household.
So she doesn't know? Man, that would make me nervous to be keeping something like this from an SO.
Me too, in a big way. But then obviously Snarkout and I are both very thoroughly accustomed to interacting with people online. (Weirdly -- to me -- so is my mother, who has taken to blogging in a big way and has met many people that way. I do not want her to be a part of my online life, though she's aware of the fact that I have one.)
25: Again, that would give me the screaming heebie-geebies. Never mentioning this place to Buck would have been perfectly easy (actually easier than twisting his arm into reading it), and harmless given that I'm not actually doing anything exceptionable related to Unfogged. But the fact of the secrecy would seem terribly problematic to me if I got busted somehow.
24. She knows that I comment on blogs. She sometimes remembers my handle. I don't spend much time on line at home, but have a window open at work all the time. If she thought that my productivity was comprimised, she really would be pissed. Me, I treat Unfogged as mental sorbet, cleansing the palate periodically.
I have spent months carefully arranging my activities to prevent my wife from discovering my life online.
My girlfriend, who would have normally been confused and a little squicked out by the concept, was prepared by a social event early in our relationship where a friend of mine related to her a story of my Usenet days, when I used to hare off to random meetups with people from the newsgroup.
When I mentioned DCon, she was like "you know, I'm glad I already got used to the idea of you hanging out and doing stupid shit with sf/fantasy types from an internet chatroom, otherwise I'd think this was a little weird."
I can totally understand the anxiety, and also how the nondisclosure comes about. I still mostly just read, but I can see how the transition from recreational use on the weekends into a full-on habit is gradual rather than sudden, and the point at which this would be something that Needs To Be Talked About might not be totally clear.
I've mentioned the site to my wife once in a while, in an offhand, general way, to try to lay the groundwork should more ever be necessary, which is made easier by the fact that she is fully internet-savvy herself. In fact, I think I even told her about Brock's little situation a while ago, with the thought explicitly in my mind that I hoped to avoid anything similar myself.
I would have told my wife more about unfogged a long time ago, but I can't because I'm embarrassed about my cartoonihh pseudonym.
I found that the term "secret internet friends" was a just-embarrassing-enough means of explaining it to my girlfriend. She gets annoyed that I spend time at the computer instead of by her side when we're together. I've told her where it is, and she's said she's interested in what I write just to see my writing, but I haven't explained that I'm not writing anything that would stand on its own for consumption.
I found it useful to explain the analogy ban to her, although we haven't instituted one.
I've told her where it is, and she's said she's interested in what I write just to see my writing, but I haven't explained that I'm not writing anything that would stand on its own for consumption.
Yeah, this sounds like she's got the same 'content pusher' model of websites as Buck, rather than the conversational model that fits Unfogged better.
Magpie and I originally met through a Usenet group and associated mailing list, so there was never an issue explaining Unfogged to her. Mostly she started reading and commenting because she got sick of hearing about stuff that went on here second-hand.
It also doesn't hurt that we both work in tech.
that would give me the screaming heebie-geebies
If it were anything I had to make an effort to conceal, I'd feel the same way. But it's not, and introducing her to Unfogged is pretty far down on the list of home-front priorities at this point. If and when the time comes, it would probably be easiest to do it by first having Emerson over for dinner sometime when he's in town. Think upon that.
35: I suppose I should just find an interesting thread to get her clear on the concept, or at least one in which people are nice to me.
I feel guilty about the time-wasting; I hope I'm not the only procrastinator here. That's the biggest source of potential tension, as my wife would be delighted if I devoted more energy to household maintenance rather than playing with my kid or working. "I yakked, then worked frantically once I realized that my data wasn't going to take care of itself, and now I don't feel like tidying." Interesting and occasionally sympathetic chat is nice, but hard to justify; I'd have the same issue if I went for drinks with strangers, or indulged a chess compulsion. It's low-grade selfish behavior for me; at least I'm not coming home with odd smears of body glitter on my person.
I would have told my wife more about unfogged a long time ago, but I can't
Hey man, no judgment here. I was all pity, no censure while that was going on, and just hoping to learn from your misfortune.
I think I missed the thread with the denouement, too, so I'm glad to see you're still alive and, apparently, still married.
I'm not in a relationship right now, but I have found it weird trying to explain to my godparents or other friends how I know somebody at X institution.
I was kind of sheepish telling my shrink about it, because I sort of thought it was weird, and I didn't want to be judged. I couldn't bear to give him the url, though, but we discussed that.
Unfogged is awfully weird. I sometimes think that it would be great for networking except for the fact that everyone knows how much time we all waste.
'content pusher' model
This is a wonderful way of trying to make "writing that's actually about something" sound bad.
I hear ya, LB. I have a lot of the same issues. I chat with The Missus about this stuff occasionally, but I'd be a bit happier if she read here every now and then.
At the same time, I don't want to assign homework.
Seems to me like the older academic types would be more wedded to the idea of random meetups between people they've never met before but for whom they have affection and respect - doesn't this describe the ALA convention or any some such puppy puddle?
And from what I have heard, the MENSA gatherings in South Carolina used to get pretty crazy back in the day.
Not that I get the chance to completely embark on the unfogged journey (though it is a fascinating place), I'd feel like meeting anyone from here would be like going to a MOObash or a munch or something, though less sex and more drinking. And much funny.
shivbunny, as I have said, is not a fan of Unfogged. He and I met online, in a galaxy far, far away, so he knows that the potential for an online thing becoming a real thing is there. And it's particular to Unfogged, too, not the whole internet or any real-life colleagues: a lot of intelligent educated people, says his neuroses, like the ones your wife should prefer having out with over you.
We deal with it mostly by him not reading it. And me showing him the funny links and relating the story of the flophouse nearly burning down.
42: Oh, you know what I mean. Content pushing is obviously likely to have more substance than this nonsense, but it's just not a good description of what goes on here.
Neither my wife nor anyone I've ever met in person knows anything about the existence of MAE.
I find it hard to talk to my mother, who only knows the blogs I write under my realname. I spend so much time with internet friends here in NY that when she asks what I did this weekend, and I say, "Oh, my friends and I did X" and she asks who was there, I always bobble a bit. She just wants to know who the main characters in my life are, but I have a hard time keeping track of what lies I've told her about how I know Becks and Bave.
That said, at first I didn't understand the "My partner doesn't know" thing, because I can't imagine dating someone who was weird about the internet, but I'm guessing this is particularly the case for those people who only started developing online relationships after they got married. You Usenet types can always claim you were married to it first.
Well part of the non- disclosure is that my wife is non political. She doesn't like political arguments at all, and is happy being June Cleaver. At parties our set still segregates by sex, men talking politics and history and women talking about whatever. Not that anyone is excluded, just drifting to one's interests. Pretend internet friends would not compute.
"having" should be "hanging."
Though "having out with" is a good, vaguely british-sounding euphemism for sex.
I feel guilty about the time-wasting; I hope I'm not the only procrastinator here.
I used to read Unfogged to procrastinate my job. Last month I quit my job, and now I'm procrastinating my whole life.
I hope I'm not the only procrastinator here
[Snort.]
the story of the flophouse nearly burning down
Where was I? I was here for when the flophouse almost got poison gassed, and I was at Megan's when her place almost burned down.
A few years ago I went to a few meetups of a non-unfogged online gang of imaginary friends. Once my wife came, but she didn't like the group much and didn't want to go to the next one. At one meetup, a married guy hooked up with another member, and ended up leaving his wife for her (no kids). It didn't involve me, but I knew both parties, and it was sufficiently unsettling that I left that group. It's also one reason I won't be at Unfoggedcon.
51: That's why I refuse to buy their cars.
Was it Megan's? Whatever occasioned the serious warning about smoke alarms.
This is a wonderful way of trying to make "writing that's actually about something" sound bad.
Actually, this is key for me. I used to call it 'writing,' but a lot of my work is just 'content,' joyless newspaperese or similar just-the-facts prose constricted mostly by lack of space. I don't comment that much here, but I constantly need to remind myself that a person can write something without worrying about going over word count or, god forbid, slipping in a humorous aside.
My wife knows what the website looks like and probably, if pushed, would say "What an enormous waste of your fucking time." Otherwise, she couldn't care less. The closest to an exception was the slight possibility of my attendance at UnfoggedCon 2.0, which would have raised logistical issues. But that's not happening, so no. Of course, as a mere commenter I am not in quite the same position as LB, as she posts away and flirts madly and reveals secrets about her family to strangers and so on. I can see how the issues she describes might emerge and grow to the point of weirdly embarrassed etc.
it would probably be easiest to do it by first having Emerson over for dinner sometime when he's in town. Think upon that.
Wow, this just reminded me that I had an Emerson-centric dream last night.
a lot of my work is just 'content,' joyless newspaperese or similar just-the-facts prose
"Me: [interrupting]"
56: I think she's referring to Megan's, but assumed it was at the flophouse, since Becks didn't mention the location of the party in the post.
My wife knows what the website looks like and probably, if pushed, would say "What an enormous waste of your fucking time."
Actually, by cast of mind and dint of professional training she would likely avoid ambiguity and say "What a fucking enormous waste of your time."
63: Okay, B. You have to tell.
59 - It was Megan's. A fact I skipped over because I thought some people might make assholish comments I wouldn't find funny.
...this is particularly the case for those people who only started developing online relationships after they got married
Very true. Opportunities were limited before 1980. Mrs OFE knows I comment on blogs but she doesn't know or care which ones. She doesn't really approve, as she's a staunch believer in the maxim that no man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money. I don't think she'd like this place - it would offend her second wave sensibilities; sometimes it offends mine.
My wife refers to you all, collectively, as my "imaginary friends."
My wife knows what the website looks like and probably, if pushed, would say "What an enormous waste of your fucking time."
She didn't recently go in on a Sunday to free up "just in case" time on Monday, did she?
Of course this post comes up when I'm on the road with my boss. Short answer--yes, this place occasionally puts a little stress on my marriage, especially meetups.
I don't think she'd like this place - it would offend her second wave sensibilities; sometimes it offends mine
Oh, yeah.
My wife refers to you all, collectively, as my "imaginary friends."
Well, we can't become real friends, baa, because you'll never come to a meet up.
My wife refers to you all, collectively, as my "imaginary friends."
Individually, we have names like "snookums" and "diddle cakes."
"Me: [interrupting]"
Sometimes I also offer professional assistance.
She didn't recently go in on a Sunday to free up "just in case" time on Monday, did she?
As it happens, this Sunday we were both in our respective offices for about six hours.
Okay, B. You have to tell.
I think it's more fun if I just let you guys imagine it.
"I'm seeing a friend tonight, mom."
"An internet friend? [doosteh interneti]"
79: No fun at all. When I imagine it, it's mostly yelling.
Well, we can't become real friends, baa, because you'll never come to a meet up.
You won't set up the assassination that easily...
my husband knows, doesn't really care. I was really weird about the real blog with him for a while--didn't tell him at first because I thought it was stupid; then I didn't think it was stupid but felt guilty about not telling him before. Eventually I got over it, he was annoyed but it was less of a big deal than I thought, I show him when I write something substantial but generally it's not his thing.
Individually, we have names like "snookums" and "diddle cakes."
I think she's thinking more along the lines of Snuffleupagus.
Here's a picture of Fontana meeting my niece.
It's weird how easy it is to think of someone as (pseudonym) online & how much of an idiot I feel saying them aloud. Hence my clever alias.
83: Why would we assassinate you when there are re-education camps to which you could productively be sent? (Someone's on top of setting up the camps, right?)
85: Really your niece? That must have been so much fun for her.
If my fiancee can hang out in 4chan all the time, I guess I can be here.
But I would feel bad about revealing personal things here if I knew any of you personally.
It's weird how easy it is to think of someone as (pseudonym) online & how much of an idiot I feel saying them aloud
Becks is Becks both online and off. Her real name sounds weirdly formal now.
30: Did that for a few years, finally burned all the bridges and dynamited my entire life, and moved 2K miles away.
I'm happy with the results but not at all proud of how I handled it.
89: I haven't said anything here I wouldn't say to friends, at least under the pseud.
topical: mine knows about this place, but has her own online diversions. She's met the few people here I have.
84: You have a real blog but you don't share?
I am the cat who reads by himself, and all blogs are alike to me.
85: Snuffleuphagus as played by Humbert Humbert. I think I see desire in those eyes.
94: for a while. This was years ago. Not recommended. I can be really insecure about my writing with him for some reason.
I waste too much time here and that can be a problem.
She was happy that unfogged found a poem for my kid to recite.
LB's Suggestion here:
http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_6570.html#520088
My daughter made it to the finals but tripped up by forgetting which verse she was on. In retrospect, I should have taught her the method of loci which would have worked well with this poem.
57: wow.
F'real? The story in 57 sounded much like one from the aforementioned Usenet group/associated mailing list I used to be involved with. I kinda assume that that sort of thing goes on with every online group.
I ended up putting a lot of somewhat awkward effort into insisting that he read the site some
This doesn't read too well with me. You might be asking Buck to forgive your insecurities. And 'dragging' him to a party might work...or it might not, in which case you'll have an awful lot on your hands. From what you've written, you've told him about it and he doesn't care. But you are demanding that he care, and care in the way you want him to. Quit while you're ahead.
99: She read that one? Excellent: I love that poem. I still exhort my children to be self-reliant, you know, like Isabel.
101: A fair reading of the post, but not actually a good description of what was going on. The arm-twisting to read it some was purely to successfully convey the degree of personal interaction, which I wasn't managing to get across through description -- I'm not demanding that he keep up. And I'm not actually dragging him to the party, he's psyched.
100: oops, my wow was at the fact that he wasn't attending because of that incident.
Do you exhort them to write upon the lintels of their door-post "Whim"?
Oh, ok. Just asking the Shaft about their experiences. Got it.
"Whim" is one of PK's favorite words/ideas of late. So awesome.
Everyone gives me shit about talking about partners here too openly, but I remember Max sort of sitting me down to ask me about Unfogged, and what I thought was going to be a "What are you doing with these people?" conversation ended up being a "OMG share all the gossip with me" conversation. He was fascinated by it, in part because he sort of saw it as something like a novel that we were all contributing to.
The guy I dated after that was aware of my bloglife, and met a couple of my blogfriends, but really never seemed to think about it much, and he never sought out my blog, even though I told him about it. At one point, I found a hastily-stashed World of Warcraft extension pack box thrown behind his computer, though, so I'm assuming we were just on a don't-ask-don't-tell basis.
Hey Matt F., I'm imagining less sex because it makes my heart feel fuzzier. Esp. in the context of the spouse/SO-related questioning. Far be it from me, however, to prohibit the single/polyamorous/open relationship folks getting it on. And then posting pictures or giving a blow-by-blow. But me personally, I'm unnerved by the keeping secrets of a drunken hookup - those kind of things should be arranged in advance. (Things I Learned From My Fraternity 101).
Maybe you ought, LB. Then you can have them read "The Decay of Lying", which is actually where I encountered the phrase, though apparently it has its origins in "Self-Reliance".
104: I'm not concerned about temptation. It's more that the situation was personally unpleasant, made more so because I didn't feel comfortable talking about it with my wife or my online group aftewards. It made the whole concept of meetups a downer for me.
But have fun folks!
"OMG share all the gossip with me" conversation
That's the entire point of this place. To provide gossip fodder for me and Mr. B. I mean, after 15 years, we've kind of exhausted the subject of our mutual families.
At one point, I found a hastily-stashed World of Warcraft extension pack box thrown behind his computer, though, so I'm assuming we were just on a don't-ask-don't-tell basis.
This cracks me up.
Snuffleuphagus as played by Humbert Humbert. I think I see desire in those eyes.
Note that the picture is titled "Snuffy don't eat"
(and it's not my niece, actually)
CYRIL. Well, you need not look at the landscape. You can lie on the grass and smoke and talk.
VIVIAN. But Nature is so uncomfortable. Grass is hard and dumpy and damp, and full of dreadful black insects.
If my fiancee can hang out in 4chan all the time
Oh my.
VIVIAN. Oh, The Tired Hedonists of course. It is a club to which I belong. We are supposed to wear faded roses in our buttonholes when we meet, and to have a sort of cult for Domitian. I am afraid you are not eligible. You are too fond of simple pleasures.
CYRIL. I should be blackballed on the ground of animal spirits, I suppose?
VIVIAN. Probably. Besides, you are little too old. We don't admit anybody who is of the usual age.
CYRIL. Well, I should fancy you are all a good deal bored with each other.
VIVIAN. We are. That is one of the objects of the club.
Discover Wilde again—for the first time!
Incidentally the sort of stuff LB describes in the post is precisely why I don't post under my real name. Too much opportunity for mischief brought about by the odd googling.
OT: Shameless bleg for the Chicago area contingent to consider attending a Lung Cancer Awareness walk which a good friend is a big part of organizing. Saturday in Lisle -- registration starts at 8:30, walk starts at 10. You can safely show at 9:30 without missing anything. Showing up hungover is okay. Showing up with a cigarette in hand is frowned upon.
www.walkforlungcancer.org
Now that I think about it, Max's perspective was that this was a space where anyone could say anything, as long as it was basically intelligent, because the relationships here were not "real." So you could be hurtful, confessional, honest, jokey, or whatever, in a way that you can't IRL. He didn't read it much, but was fascinated by the reactions that kind of interaction produced, to his eye, which didn't see the history of the thing.
What he didn't ever really get was that the people here are very real, and that a lot of them were my friends, and that what's said on the blog directly affects IRL friendships and relationships. I thought that made it more interesting because of the higher stakes. Max thought it was more interesting to think of blog-relationships as their own sphere, free of IRL complications and limitations.
28: the screaming heebie-geebies
There's more than one?
Lady Bracknell. Exploded! Was he the victim of a revolutionary outrage? I was not aware that Mr. Bunbury was interested in social legislation. If so, he is well punished for his morbidity.
The Importance of Being Earnest
122: Damn. Much as I adore Heebie, I do continually want to use her name as a common noun, and end up having to write around it. And sometimes I forget.
(Question for the audience: If 'heebie-geebies' is a word I find myself continually in need of, does that indicate any sort of problem?)
124: Not as much as riding around in a van with four hippies and a talking dog does.
My wife is vaguely aware and doesn't take any particular interest, other than the time-suck factor. She's not thrilled about that part but mostly used to it. The only content stuff she'd dislike would be certain sorts of personal revelations, so I try to stay away from anything I'm not prepared to defend on "my life too" grounds.
Ben, did you read the thing on my side about analytic Algernon, Aunt Agatha's cucumber sandwiches, and analytic philosophy?
It won't be a big eyeopener for you, I'm just noting the coincidence.
86: It's weird how easy it is to think of someone as (pseudonym) online & how much of an idiot I feel saying them aloud.
I'm just the opposite. Even the people I've met I still am more likely to refer to by their pseuds. C'mon, Katherine (M/M/ and I actually refer to you as "Katherine with a K" so as not to confuse you with "catherine with a c"), let us call you Da Torture Buster. OK, maybe not.
Only Velma says Jinkies on the show, a point lost on my son, who earnestly says this to express surprise.
LB, "the fantods" can be substituted for Ms. Geebie if a comon noun is needed.
part of the Facebook/Myspace/Twitter/Whatever generation where everyone's used to conducting their social life online
As a member, I suppose, of the "online social networking" generation, what I've always found baffling is the fact that people in my age group are alarmed by the "imaginary friends" concept. It seems obvious to me that a community like Unfogged is fundamentally different in nature from a social networking site like Facebook, though one could say that both help constitute one's social life; however, there's something about Facebook/Myspace that apparently seems safer to people--quite possibly because of the literally formulaic nature of those sites (fields for sexual preference, favorite books, so no one has to do any actual social work). I do think it seems rather counterintuitive that a group of people for whom Facebook-stalking is an acceptable way of learning about someone would be alarmed by the concept of having "imaginary friends" on the internet. But every time I mention real-life meet-ups with people I've met online (which doesn't happen all that often), members of my peer group sort of blanch.
With my older friends no-one bats an eye. What all of this goes to say is that I'm still not sure how the generational differences really play out here--but I do think that younger people hold some weirdly conservative views about the internet that don't always true with their Facebook-loving ways.
I was kind of sheepish telling my shrink about it, because I sort of thought it was weird, and I didn't want to be judged.
This is funny because it's true. The blog came up tangentially once, and I had to spend a good chunk of time explaining the concept of a blog to the therapist...
I don't think the ex ever knew about Unfogged, though I did occasionally point him to good posts over at B's. I don't think he was ever very comfortable with that...
I can't fathom Rah not knowing about a website I read. It's not like we don't have our own lives and interests, I just can't fathom hiding one. It would be like pretending I'd never read a certain book for fear it would offend him. Maybe it helps that we both work or have worked in technology, we were both active on listservs back in the day, he already read blogs actively, that kind of thing. I dunno. We frequently compare notes from threads one has read but the other skipped. It's kind of like a TV show we both watch but at different times.
I can think of things I wouldn't disclose here but they're things I wouldn't disclose anywhere. I tend to be something of an open book. A simple, open book with colorful illustrations and large print.
37: Jesus, maybe I should bring my cute nieces along to disarm your wife.
cute nieces along to disarm your wife.
Trained in unarmed combat, are they?
No, no, not "Incoming!" More like "Um, hi! Let me straighten up a bit -- it's usually much tidier around here."
It's curious for how many people website-reading is a topic of conversation or interest among peers or SOs. Most people I know couldn't care less what sites I do or don't read (except for wanting to know if I'm on Facebook -- first social-networking site I know of that's become as ubiquitous a reference point as one's phone number), and it would never occur to me to tell them. I've never talked to an SO about blogs; when I'm offline I prefer most of my conversation to be about offline things.
Does this signify an impending pastrylanche?
With my older friends no-one bats an eye. What all of this goes to say is that I'm still not sure how the generational differences really play out here--but I do think that younger people hold some weirdly conservative views about the internet that don't always true with their Facebook-loving ways.
Hypothesis: this is a instance of a more general phenomenon of younger people being conservative about social matters, in the sense of working hard to hew to the norms of their social order as they understand it. Proposed explanations: haven't yet gained enough experience of life to recognize that violating the norms of one's group generally doesn't wreck one's life after all; stakes are higher in the earlier years of forming adult relationships because relationships formed in early adulthood often last a long time.
140: You have a higher opinion of his commenters than I do, it seems.
Does this signify an impending pastrylanche?
Not necessarily; he's linked before without triggering one.
It's curious for how many people website-reading is a topic of conversation or interest among peers or SOs.
Isn't "who your friends and acquaintances are" a pretty ordinary topic? The issue I had was that 'reading blogs' sounded to Buck (I got the impression) like watching TV -- an activity without other people involved, rather than socializing. So the point of disclosure was successfully making it clear that it was socializing.
143: Hypothesis: most of the younger people's facebook friends are people they know in real life, even if they're just acquaintances from a drunken party. The online world ends up being an extension of the real one.
Speaking of sharing online activities with SOs/family members, this is possibly one of the most disturbing and unpleasant things I've read on the subject.
147: Isn't "who your friends and acquaintances are" a pretty ordinary topic?
Maybe it's that "pretend Internet friend" is in such an ambiguous place on the "friends and acquaintances" scale that it doesn't occur to me to think of it in that context.
My wife wasn't uncomfortable about UnfoggedCon, but my lunch date with Kevin Drum bothered her.
my lunch date with Kevin Drum bothered her.
She thought he'd put the moves on you?
She thought he'd put the moves on you?
Political types can be wily.
Christ, reading the link in 149 was not a happy-making act.
My SO knows generally about Unfogged. I've generally got the laptop right next to her. We were going to meet up with CharleyCarp once (work got in the way) and Stanley once(decided he was entirely too creepy with the beard, despite having a cute ginger gf).
149: That's heartbreaking and maddening. What kind of sick fuck...?
154 gets it exactly right.
149 is awful, awful. I hope the parents who did it are aware of what they've done every instant of their lives.
Yeah, it's hard to imagine adults doing that kind of crap. I remember kids doing that in elementary school and junior high, but, luckily, kids are bad mimics and the victim immediately gets that it's a trick and an insult, which is bad enough. You get adults pretending momentarily to be boys who like you, you're going to have real feelings and pain. What's wrong with these people?
Oh, that's terrible. Can you imagine having to live down the street from the people who had taunted your daughter into killing herself?
I can't imagine not greeting them with a shotgun blast.
Re: 149:
Are we still taking nominations for "First Up Against the Wall"?
158: From the article, sadly, it seems they're justifying it by saying that see, the girl was depressed before anyway. It wasn't their fault.
You know what depresses me about this? I'm sure that all the kids who made fun of the girl in question (and they had to have been legion; being fat plus ADD...well, probably less fun than just being fat) have now learned the wonderful lesson that if you're cruel enough, yes, you can drive someone to suicide...and that's a real laugh riot. Because really, what kind of junior high bully wouldn't be thrilled if the bullying really worked and the poor weak kid in question just couldn't take it any more?
Plus all the adults will be all sanctimonious about it, which will make things worse.
And "The world would be a better place without you in it"? That's something I wouldn't say to my most formidable enemy. To a depressed kid who probably sometimes agrees? That's barely even a remove from stringing her up themselves.
but she did not feel 'as guilty' because at the funeral she found out 'Megan had tried to commit suicide before.'
God. It is amazing that the Meiers took a sledgehammer to no more than the foosball table.
149. Not exactly Cyrano de Bergerac, is it? There is a deep part of my lizard brain (no offense LB) that understands wanting to protect my child, which might involve finding out what gossip is being spread. My guess is that the daughter shared the password of the fake account, then it was mean girl overdrive.
You know, I am a huge fan of victim-offender reconciliation, but only led by a skilled mediator. Short of that, I'd want to put the offender completely out of my mind. If I were reminded of them every day, I think I would consider every day that I don't kill them a great accomplishment.
166: I never figured out what bullies want. Isn't it just to see you a little smushed around the edges? I didn't think it was to see you dead.
It is amazing that the Meiers took a sledgehammer to no more than the foosball table.
God, no kidding. I'm pretty certain that if I were the father, I'd be in prison right now.
171: Unfamiliar with the concept of the will to power, eh?
Bullies don't want to see the other person dead. They were just playin', see? Plus, you can't taunt someone who is dead.
166: what kind of junior high bully wouldn't be thrilled if the bullying really worked and the poor weak kid in question just couldn't take it any more?
It's probably fairly rare for bullies to actually get a thrill out of their bullying having real-world consequences. The more common reaction is likely to be an imitation of the responsibility-dodging the adults engaged in, looking for reasons why the outcome wasn't really their fault.
169: Given that (according to the article) they were sending out messages to keep the account secret the same night she killed herself, it seems reasonable to believe that they were on top of what was going on.
173: But in child bullies? Really? I guess when I was little, I thought if I killed myself they'd be sorry. Then again, I suppose I had a little too much faith in humankind. Not even the adult guilty parties here seem to be sorry.
148: Extension of, yes, certainly--sometimes half a replacement for the social life they'd otherwise be developing in real-time; but always something that they can link to their real lives in a more or less concrete way.
143: I do think that the phenomenon has something to do with peer norms & social pressure, but I'm not sure it's just as simple as that. My friends who were around for the early days of the internet seem to have a much easier time conceiving of it broadly--accepting the idea that relationships formed on the internet are no more nor less valid than those formed first in real life--whereas members of my peer group, despite having grown up immersed in the internet, as it were, tend to think of it in a far more prescribed way.
Also, wow, 149: really upsetting.
171: I usually feel that bullying isn't really about the individual who's bullied; it's about how bullying stabilizes and shapes social relations. It's not that the bully (or the section of the group who enthusiastically make fun) really wants the suffering of a specific person ; they want someone to suffer, to be weak, to be ridiculous. Which is why showing that bullying hurts only makes it worse; getting upset enough to kill yourself is only really, really showing that it hurts. And yes, at my school there was a suicide attempt which was met with ridicule...some poor sap even lower on the pecking order than I was.
Because really, what kind of junior high bully wouldn't be thrilled if the bullying really worked and the poor weak kid in question just couldn't take it any more?
I don't agree with this. The parents who bullied the girl into suicide are monsters. I don't think most bullies are this pathological.
Off-topic: Ron Paul is absolutely insane.
Because it wasn't their fault, see? She was already suicidal. You know, if it had been apo's child, and I were on the jury, he wouldn't be in prison because no way we're not applauding.
181: And is nonetheless the best of the Republicans running.
I found Unfogged through Apo's site, which Mrs. NCP first told me about. She knows about Unfogged, she catches the occasional thread, but (AFAIK) she's never commented. I can see how some weirdness might creep in if I were a front-pager, but the ebb and flow between frequent commenter and lurker doesn't raise any real issues for us.
It's probably fairly rare for bullies to actually get a thrill out of their bullying having real-world consequences.
That seems wildly untrue to me. They might not want permanent consequences that others decide reflect badly on them.
179: it's not that the bully (or the section of the group who enthusiastically make fun) really wants the suffering of a specific person ; they want someone else to suffer, to be weak, to be ridiculous.
Bullying is all about establishing who's on the inside and who's outside, and engaging in it is about making sure you don't wind up on the outside. Meeting suicide attempts with ridicule is, I suspect, bravado for the most part.
I usually feel that bullying isn't really about the individual who's bullied; it's about how bullying stabilizes and shapes social relations. It's not that the bully (or the section of the group who enthusiastically make fun) really wants the suffering of a specific person ; they want someone to suffer, to be weak, to be ridiculous.
I do agree with this.
And yes, at my school there was a suicide attempt which was met with ridicule.
And this is pretty horrible too.
177: You were wrong. Bullies might know enough to profess stunned sorrow over the victim's wretched fate, but they would never be sorry.
185: They might not want permanent consequences that others decide reflect badly on them.
Well, yeah. Or that they might feel actual twinges of conscience over. Basically the likeliest reaction of bullies who've actually killed someone seems to me to be pants-wetting fear, not "what a rush!"
My guess at the minds of bullies:
I think the person who gets bullied becomes not only her own awkward self (annoying! deserving!), but also a reminder of the shameful things the bullies have done. Once that has happened, bullies don't necessarily want her dead, but they do want her to not exist (move away, vanish somehow) so they don't have to be reminded of their own bullying behavior.
176: That could just be fear, too. I've witnessed a woman flat out lie wholesale knowing that her son was likely to be charged with a felony. Didn't help, and cost her most or all of her friends and social group. The instinct to protect your children even when they screw up can override any sense you may have, it seems.
Here's a thought: "bullies" don't actually form a single psychological category, and come with a range of underlying motives and reactions.
God, no kidding. I'm pretty certain that if I were the father, I'd be in prison right now.
Yeah, I generally let stuff go even when I shouldn't, but I'm not sure I could walk away from that one. When somebody's petty, stupid, ugly intervention in teenage social life kills your kid and destroys your marriage, what's left to lose?
I've witnessed a woman flat out lie wholesale knowing that her son was likely to be charged with a felony.
Just like that Sheriff did for his son on Friday Night Lights!! Burn that car baby!
187: It was pretty horrible. Most of the really bad bullying that went on was class-based; the kids who were picked on were working class, and while the actual heavies among the bullies were also working class, the audience and enthusiastic chorus were the richer kids. There was a strong but unspoken sense that working-classness itself was ridiculous (clothes, mannerisms, etc)--most of the school was middle or upper middle. And I say this as someone who is middle class and managed to move from bullied to merely ignored when I was about 15, so my last couple years of high school were outside the fray. (I remember walking down the hall and feeling this physical sense of nauseated dread that someday I might end up back in the lower ranks, so to speak.)
188 is definitely true in some cases. Some people feel sorry about being caught, or at being censured, but definitely not sorry for the damage they caused. They don't believe the recipient to be worthy of that.
Well, yeah. Or that they might feel actual twinges of conscience over. Basically the likeliest reaction of bullies who've actually killed someone seems to me to be pants-wetting fear, not "what a rush!"
It must be sunny where you live.
194: I don't know about Friday Night Lights (tv show?). This was a case where three teenagers ended up with life, no parole.
197: And when one is thirteen, whether bully or not, one is pretty much caught up in the dreadful Lord of the Flies world of junior high, probably without too much space for reflection, charity, regret, etc. Just getting through the day in a junior high school is tough enough, and why this should be true in a fairly wealthy country with quite a lot of "think of the children" rhetoric I am not sure.
196: You're talking crazy talk
I know! I know. Back to discussing the Universal Bully Template.
198: It must be sunny where you live.
But don't the rather craven actions of the adult bullies in this case testify to just that? It looks that way to me, anyway.
179 seems to be assuming that everything a bully does is driven by some kind of urge to dominate, and that they don't have any other motives you could appeal to. As if they were a different species entirely.
On a terribly self-centered note, happy birthday to me! I am now on the Emerson/carp/Idontpay/BitchPHd side of 40.
192: or maybe bullying as a behaviour has a lot of sources, `bullies' as a personality type are very similar to one another.
200: It's true because we collectively can't figure out what the hell to do with teenagers. So we put them in minimaly supervised day care, and hope for the best.
181- I barely know what Ron Paul represents, but I do know that his supporters are from the same fanatical ilk of Ross Perot. I'm on an international blog where US ranks about 4th in users. And this Texan is blogging for everyone to vote Ron Paul....in caps. Where's that sledgehammer?
192: I'd go farther and say that I would guess that everyone of us has been a bully at one time or another.
Here's another thing my wife wouldn't understand: How a blog post about spousal disclosure tuns into an analysis of bullying. Hmm, maybe related after all.
I don't know about Friday Night Lights (tv show?). This was a case where three teenagers ended up with life, no parole.
That is never fun to see. My firm do a fair amount of death penalty work. You see a lot of people who have destroyed their lives.
I just had the weirdest sense of deja vu reading Frowner's 195. Any chance you've posted, um, that exact same comment somewhere on a previous thread?
Also, agree with Apo, Ned, Cala, everybody about the amazing restraint in destroying only the table. My reactions to this have ranged from "a shotgun wouldn't be satisfying enough, only my bare hands would do" to "death is too good for these people, they need long term pain." I don't like this side of myself.
205: `bullies' as a personality type are very similar to one another
Or at least, seem similar to one another when engaged in the act.
202: In junior high? Well, it's all anecdata, but the desperate, amoral urge to survive is more how I'd characterize it. If someone else suffers, hey, at least it isn't you. Although I was a wet blanket and not a bully, I sure remember desperately keeping my distance from the weird-looking, fat, high-functioning Down Syndrome girl whose last name was similar to mine. I didn't bully her, but I didn't stick up for her either, and it was because I was terrified that people would compare me to her--we were both fat, both weird-looking, both had thick glasses, etc. Fear. I don't think I've ever been afraid with such intensity in my life as I was at that time, and I'm pretty good at the old fear, anxiety and depression.
Welcome to the dark side, will. Happy Birthday from pretend internet friends.
I would guess that everyone of us has been a bully at one time
Nope. I didn't have enough power to bully. Sometimes, though, I don't live up to my exquisitely rigorous guilty feelings about how I should be really, really nice to everyone. That's as close as I get to bullying and it feels bad enough.
sure remember desperately keeping my distance from the weird-looking, fat, high-functioning Down Syndrome girl whose last name was similar to mine. I didn't bully her, but I didn't stick up for her either
My son almost got into a fight by sticking up for such a child. He is very protective of others. I am happy that he wants to stick up for others, but we have had to discuss why fighting isnt the option.
207: Each of us has done things we ought not to have done, and left undone things we ought to have done, but I'd speculate -- I'd hope -- that few of us have been participants in longterm, recurrent, intent torment of a peer or almost-peer who made the easy mistake of not wearing the right shoes, or not knowing the right songs, or smelling bad one day, or just being a four-eyed gay dork.
Welcome to the dark side, will. Happy Birthday from pretend internet friends.
thanks Tassled.
192: I'd go farther and say that I would guess that everyone of us has been a bully at one time or another.
Especially ogged.
And when one is thirteen, whether bully or not, one is pretty much caught up in the dreadful Lord of the Flies world of junior high
I read this a lot here, and elsewhere on other blogs. Thank fuck my school really wasn't like that. Shites and bullies like anywhere, but school in general, really not so bad.
I only really encountered really nasty, systematic bullying in the workplace.
210: Nope, my perspective is marginally more nuanced now. Notice that I didn't lead by accusing you-all of being bullies in disguise. But yes, this is a topic on which I am not entirely rational--I know I shouldn't read stories like the one linked in 149, just like I shouldn't read stories about fatal diseases that initially manifest themselves with tiny, barely-noticeable symptoms.
149 is so terrible that I can't comment on any of the rest of it. Sorry; tht's not clever. But if anyone had driven my daughter to suicide like that, yes, I think and hope that I would try to kill them.
209: This was very pathetic. It's an internationally known case, easy enough to find I guess but I'll avoid too many particulars. One high school kid, a sociopath, managed to convince another couple of kids to help knock off members of his own family (for inheritence). The parents of one of the other kids proceeded to construct a fantasy world where their kid wasn't involved, a victim of sorts, and then proceeded to live in it. They've been occupying this fantasy world for many, many years now --- pretty much cut off from any friends and some family. Protesting, attempting press releases, getting thrown out of court for contempt, the whole 9 yards. I guess it was easier than admit your child could do something like that.
219: I'd speculate -- I'd hope -- that few of us have been participants in longterm, recurrent, intent torment of a peer or almost-peer
Depends on what you classify as being a "participant" in "torment." Suppose your participation mainly consisted of occasionally laughing along with someone else's cruel joke at the expense of the easy-target geek in the hallway, and that the rest of the time you were just indifferent to them. From their perspective, would you be distinguishable from the people who tormented them relentlessly day-in and day-out, or would you all merge for them into more or less a single category?
And re: 207, no, I don't think so.
Like Flippanter in 219, I'm sure I've done things that I in retrospect weren't the best, but really bullying someone? No.
In re 149. I guess it will be pretty unpopular to say so, but I think Me/ier's parents hold most of the blame, not the bullies, and it's not fair to say that they "drove Megan to suicide." "Ron says Tina was as vigilant as a parent could be in monitoring Megan on MySpace." This is just not true and it's irresponsible to suggest it is.
I think the important lesson is, if your teenage kid with a history of suicidal ideation and depression is ever "sobbing hysterically" over something someone told her online and then runs to her room, you shouldn't just say "everything will be OK" and then go make dinner and forget about it.
227: Let's leave the casuistry of abettors and accessories for our next "George W. Bush is Cyborg Satan" thread.
An awful lot of kids have a history of suicidal ideation & depression.
DS clearly participated in getting someone to suicide. What do you want, a pat on the back?
Also, "alternating between being friends and, the next day, not being friends," it sounds like Megan had the capacity to be something of a bully herself. Which just goes to show that the "bullies vs. not-bullies" worldview is too simplistic.
229: I think the important lesson is, if your teenage kid with a history of suicidal ideation and depression is ever "sobbing hysterically" over something someone told her online and then runs to her room, you shouldn't just say "everything will be OK" and then go make dinner and forget about it.
Come on. She hadn't been suicidal in the recent past. The implication of your comment is that it's irresponsible of a parent to allow a depressed, upset teenager to ever be alone in a room, which is simply unpractical.
233: I think you kind of left out the "pretended to be a teenage dude on myspace" part of the story.
I'm going to put on my ESP hat and divine that m. negra is not a parent.
Thanks Tim.
If you want crazy, at my birthday party this past weekend, my ex-wife ended up crying on my current gf's shoulder while my ex-fiancee looked on with bemusement.
227- As a point of reference, I grew up with deaf parents, so I got a ton of abuse. I never distinguished between the two types.
229: I don't know about unpopular, but wrong as hell.
232: I just want someone to think about my pain for once, Tim.
233: it sounds like Megan had the capacity to be something of a bully herself
I don't see why you adduce that from the text you quote.
There's no need to argue. Parents just don't understand.
If you want crazy, at my birthday party this past weekend, my ex-wife ended up crying on my current gf's shoulder while my ex-fiancee looked on with bemusement and then they all made out with each other for my amusement.
Fixed.
228: I don't think everyone is operating from the same definition of `bullying' here. I'm not talking about schoolyard taunting, in/group out/group dynamice, stupid popularity contests. Bullies identify the weak points of the weakest people and go after that as hard as they can. They only stop due to outside influence or sometimes disctraction by a different target.
My personal experience of bully related incidents includes a couple of actual suicides, a bunch more attempts, one kid who broke his own arm to get out having to go to school any more, one girl who was literally beated to death, another who was only half dead from her beating, inumerable small injuries (broken fingers, teeth, etc.) and serious thefts, etc. I think the process becomes worse with disadvantaged kids. Partially due to lack of supervision. Partially due to more exposure to violent acts (but still lacking a real understanding of the consequences).
238: I never distinguished between the two types.
And that makes total sense to me.
Re: 243 - Goddamn, I guess it really is sunny where I live.
Not at all. The girl described herself as neglected, and just from that very sympathetic article it's pretty clear that both of her parents were neglecting her that day.
But I don't want to beat up on them; mostly my point is that it's unfair to say the bullies "handed her a loaded gun." And the lesson is definitely not that MySpace will make your teenagers kill themselves regardless of what you do.
Bullies identify the weak points of the weakest people and go after that as hard as they can. They only stop due to outside influence or sometimes disctraction by a different target.
I think it's probably a little broader than that, but that actually seems like a really good definition of "bully."
Perhaps I have recounted this anecdote before, but a relative of mine once taught at a private school for wealthy children from disfunctional families and one of the bullied girls was sexually assaulted in a particularly grotesque and violent manner by her female peers, an incident whose details I cannot even bring myself to type out. But it was gross and bodily invasive.
addendum to 243: I don't want to suggest I was a disadvantaged kid (I wasn't) but I did know a large number of them. And it's not like these things were every day occurances --- the young girl beaten to death for example was national (and probably international) news for a while. I knew some people peripherally involved in that case, not the kids themselves. The others were all people I knew personally, though. No news cameras for them.
237. Chicks, man. Can't live with 'em...
Seriously, although my ex and I are cordial, birthday party attendance is not on.
I think you kind of left out the "pretended to be a teenage dude on myspace" part of the story.
It was kind of hard to miss. But my point is that it isn't nearly as crucial to the story as they made it out to be.
I don't see why you adduce that from the text you quote.
Nor am I sure of it, but it does sound like the (awful, cruel) mom of Megan's ex-friend thought of Megan as having been "not very nice" to her daughter and that quote from Megan's mom seems to speak to the same point.
My brother and sister-in-law spent about two years watching every day for signs that their plumpish daughter was being bullied. They knew the kids in her class very well, and knew who the bullies were and who the victim of the moment was, and they could see the arrow starting to move in my niece's direction when one of the victims transferred out.
Happy ending -- my niece had been planning all along to go to a different school (MLC, Jesus) and she made the move before she was targetted. Her new school probably is safe.
Huh, I don't think I was a bully by these definitions, and I certainly never wanted to see anyone dead. Maybe to see them cry a little, the little shits. But nothing ongoing targeting someone consistently.
But I don't want to beat up on them; mostly my point is that it's unfair to say the bullies "handed her a loaded gun." And the lesson is definitely not that MySpace will make your teenagers kill themselves regardless of what you do.
Which might be relevant if someone had made either of those claims. As it is, you're working awfully hard at being contrarian for no apparent reason.
251.2: OTOH, it could just as easily be that it was the woman's daughter who initiated the periodic friendings and unfriendings; people prone to that kind of unstable love/hate relationship are known to exist.
252: So, that was actually the Reena Virk case? Seriously? Or just similar to it?
Gotta say I'm thankful I never had to deal with violence in that league at high school.
both of her parents were neglecting her that day.
Leaving a fourteen-year-old alone in the house, with repeated phone contact, while you take your other child to the orthodontist is not neglect by any reasonable definition. Obviously the article can't establish that it wasn't her parents' fault, but there's really no reason to think that it was.
254: ...and there's no one left to say different.
253 is creepy, Emerson, in a sort of dreadful-inevitability way.
How did your brother and his wife keep tabs on all of this? How did they know when the dreadful moment had arrived?
20: 'Smasher jokes, but what he doesn't remember is that I really married him (to someone else) while he wasn't paying attention was passed out.
so late and off-topic. classic lurker, always fucking things up.
Did you not read the article? The "loaded gun" quote is from the end. And the general tone of the comments (here and at that site) is that the bullies made Megan kill herself, and I just don't think it's constructive to see it that way. And I especially dislike the idea that there should be new laws making bullies culpable for the acts of their victims (which is also called for in the article).
252: Yeah, that case. Like I said, I only know peripheral people in that case (from a couple of directions). I knew a couple of people involved in a similar situation a few years earlier, but the victim didn't die, and the other teens all did a few months juvenile detention.
253: This was happening to an awkward kid of friends of mine, ages ago. For totally unrelated reasons, I went to pick him up from school on my bike one day with a few friends. I guess half a dozen loud bikes pulling into a grade school makes an impression or something. His folks told me the bullies decided that day he was a bad target. I'm certain they found someone else, though.
Is "the mineshaft" a pun on gemeinschaft? If so, and if the one or two other meanings I had read into it earlier were also intended, that makes it the Greatest Pun Ever.
261: OK, you're right on the "loaded gun" bit. I don't like that wording, but it's accurate to say that the general tenor of the comments is that the kid was goaded into committing suicide. I think that's absolutely an accurate reading of the information we have. Why do you think it's "not constructive to see it that way"?
The second part of the quoted bit was pure straw. I didn't and won't read the comments on the linked bit, but nobody here is blaming MySpace.
I agree with you that new laws against bullying are unlikely to be a good idea, but again, no one's arguing that here.
Someone else on the site (Biohazard?) had a similar "showing up on a motorcycle and putting off kids who'd been giving your kid a hard time" story. I'll have to remember to keep our one friend who rides a bike in reserve in case anyone starts hassling Sally or Newt.
What a timely topic for the Mister and me.
I had my first introduction with Unfogged this past Saturday. After my initial surprise of how clearly he belonged in this place (you mean Knecht wasn't working on those projects in Germany late nights and on weekends???), I was really glad for him that he has all of you to banter with.
I was not happy to read his opinion of me in the archives of 10/17-well that would be a huge understatement as that it was only the arrival of my daughter's school bus the stopped my book burning in the driveway of our home.
What a timely topic for the Mister and me.
I had my first introduction with Unfogged this past Saturday. After my initial surprise of how clearly he belonged in this place (you mean Knecht wasn't working on those projects in Germany late nights and on weekends???), I was really glad for him that he has all of you to banter with.
I was not happy to read his opinion of me in the archives of 10/17-well that would be a huge understatement as that it was only the arrival of my daughter's school bus the stopped my book burning in the driveway of our home.
266: This, now this is one of the services that Unfogged could provide to commenters--those of us with dramatic-looking friends can gather at strategic points nationwide and intimidate the enemies of other, less colorful Unfoggers. Maybe we could have some practice runs at UnfoggeDCon.
If you want crazy, at my birthday party this past weekend, my ex-wife ended up crying on my current gf's shoulder while my ex-fiancee looked on with bemusement.
This doesn't sound crazy at all to me, Will. Familiar, yes. Crazy, no.
Oh yay, so nice to meet you Mrs. Ruprecht. My personal belief was that you were reading other sites and commenting about how much smarter/ some other quality you are than your husband.
Maybe we'll get to try his tarte some day.
Mrs. Ruprecht, sometimes things are said here more for the funny than for the truth (at least a couple of us have had some offline explaining to do in the past), and anyway, the things we give Knecht a hard time about are being a weenie about being mean to right-wingers, and for bragging about how hot you are.
259: My sister in law volunteered in the school, and she had known several of the kids from daycare. This was about 5th-6th grade. They had tried to talk about the mother of the leader of the bullies about how she had been treating the girl who transferred out, and found that the mother was oblivious.
Mrs. Ruprecht sells herself short. We've kissed and made up now, but this morning she was ready to throw me out of the house and throw my belongings after me.
Important lesson, kids: don't try to keep unfogged seekrit from your spouse.
I was not happy to read his opinion of me
The first rule of Unfogged is that nearly everybody is joking nearly all of the time.
Maybe we'll get to try his tarte some day.
Hey, let's not be too forward, now...
I recall Tweety saying, as I was debating whether/how to come clean to Mrs. Ruprecht, something to the effect of "Once she sees how abstruse the buttsex threads are, she'll just feel sorry for you.
Leaving a fourteen-year-old alone in the house, with repeated phone contact, while you take your other child to the orthodontist is not neglect by any reasonable definition.
All right, neglect is apparently too strong a term, and probably one that, legally, fits the bully mom better for giving the password out to other children for the purposes of inflicting emotional distress. But I see the crucial opportunities to turn things around being missed by her parents.
I guess I empathize with Megan because I remember being 13 and sobbing hysterically at what people said to me over the computer too. And from this point of view I'm grateful that my parents reacted the way they did, instead of the way Megan's parents did.
the kid was goaded into committing suicide. I think that's absolutely an accurate reading of the information we have. Why do you think it's "not constructive to see it that way"?
Because it lets the other responsible parties off the hook. Look, plenty of people get bullied and told worse things than "the world would be a better place without you" without killing themselves. Other things were going on, you can be sure of this without knowing specifically what.
I don't think the bullies should be let off the hook either and I wouldn't say they shouldn't feel responsible for what happened, for what that's worth. But I don't think they should be held responsible for it, especially since it sounds like the cruellest messages were left by other children.
The creepy thing about the MySpace bullying was that an adult was a major part of the story. The kid part of it isn't unusual, but the adult really has no possible excuse.
275: That's also the second, third, and fifth rules.
276: he's only gonna bring it on himself, really.
I have had no problem revealing Unfogged to the various boys I've dated over the years, but for some reason I can't bring myself to come clean with family. I went to DCon 1.0 just a couple days after visiting my sister in LA, and she was all like "why are you leaving so soon?" and I was like "you know, I want to get back home..." I did mention that I was meeting up with Bitch and w-lfs-n and DE, but somehow, taking an actual flight to meet up with people seemed like too much.
And Bitch is absolutely right re: the gossip factor. I totally share all Unfogged gossip with my boyfriend and it provides hours of entertainment.
Now my co-workers know about Unfogged too (at least some of them, anyway). I'm just lucky that no one is bored enough to search all through the archives for all the totally weird and personal shit I've posted here.
"Don't think the bullies should be let off the hook" = "society should treat them they're very bad people". "Don't think they should be held responsible" = "no criminal charges." Please, I don't mean to contradict myself.
Happy Birthday will! Sorry I won't be seeing you tomorrow at the march.
I didn't write 124, but could have. We don't talk about it.
I didn't have much trouble over DCon last year -- I was asked if there would be attractive women there. I said the only woman I knew would be there and had seen before was Hilzoy. The wife is not threatened by my consorting with ethicists.
274: Yow. There's one data-point in favor of 'awkward full disclosure'. And Mrs. R. -- sorry (on behalf of the site) to have been a partial cause of stress, but do comment sometimes. We strive to be moderately entertaining.
"Honey, Hilzoy is an ethicist".
"She's not one of those postmodern ethicists, is she?"
278.2: Possibly some of the difference in perspective here is coming from age/life stage. It's not crazy to think that her parents could have done more, but it's a large leap from "could have done more" to "their fault," particularly when you're talking about a vicious assault on the kid's weak spot led not by other kids but by another kid's parents. There would have to be a hell of a lot more story here than can be reasonably extrapolated from what we have before I'd back away from thinking that such behavior directed at my kid with that outcome would be in the very, very small class of things that could cause me to get seriously violent.
Happy birthday, Will! I'm sorry that you're old now.
Ah, now I know why I lurk. Lurking Unfogged- it's just must-see TV.
not by other kids but by another kid's parents.
It seems odd that m. negra is consistently minimizing this aspect of the situation.
Everything I have to say pwned except:
Happy birthday will, but you're older than one person on your list.
Contrarianism is the last legal high, Not Prince Hamlet.
The thing that made it awkward for me to be more upfront about unfogged with my spouse was not, in fact, the witty repartee or the flirty banter, but like lw in 39, I was embarassed to acknowledge the slacker aspect of it. In fact, this whole episode has been a wakeup call for me about the need to slack a little less and to be a little more forthcoming with Mrs. Ruprecht.
I'm dull: My early courtship with my wife was mainly done online, and essentially everyone in our social circle is on livejournal, so there's nothing particularly enweirding about me spending time on unfogged. I relay particularly amusing comments to her from time to time; she's not a regular reader.
293 -- Clean up on aisle 2, there, will.
295: Next time you decide to be forthcoming, though, try to time it such that it's slightly more difficult to research the exact extent to which you are a jerk.
Here, here, to forthcoming... Bostonian Girl, his tarte is sublime! Mr. Ruprecht would make a great house husband if it wasn't for all the alleged slacking-
295: Yep. I'm in the clear on that -- Buck watched me get myself through law school with the most godawful workavoidant set of habits (the only serious piece of writing I did took an exorbitant amount of time, mostly spent sitting at the computer not working, interspersed with vocal self-loathing). So my inability to do anything in a focused fashion has been out in the open since well before we were married.
It's a relief that Mrs. Full Of Eels is a good sport.
Forthcoming tarte? Sounds good to me.
You have to like lard. He uses a lot of it.
266: Yeah, that was me. It's one practical application of the "I'm crazier than you are" style of negotiation.
You have to like lard. He uses a lot of it.
Why Mrs. Ruprecht, please leave our private bedroom behaviors out of this discussion!
And with that, it's really back to work for me.
A variant of 300 could be written by almost everyone I've ever known to write a thesis or dissertation.
303: I don't know why people get so squeamish about lard in pastry. It doesn't end up tasting like pork at all.
You have to like lard. He uses a lot of it.
We don't have any vegetarians in the Boston contingent, do we?
304: In the particular case I mention, one of the guys was riding a 126 ci twin, so I'm also pretty sure the entire school heard us, even if that wasn't the intent.
People get squeamish about lard from a flavour standpoint? I thought it was more a "fear of clogged arteries" thing (the fools!).
It doesn't end up tasting like pork at all.
And even with that marked disadvantage, it still makes good pastry.
307: It doesn't end up tasting like pork at all.
That's actually my main problem with it. I'm always so disappointed.
310: Well, that's just silly. Fat's fat, and of the fats you can make pie crust out of, lard's probably less problematic than the others.
311, 312: NC does, in fact, represent.
I'm just glad, Knecht, that she didn't read the archives from early '01.
Mmmm, frybread. Speaking of lard-based pastries.
314: unless you're a vegetarian, i guess.
Damn, that was dismissive, wasn't it. And insensitive to those who keep kosher; those who keep halal; moral vegetarians; religious vegetarians; heart patients... did I miss anyone?
The smell of hot fat makes me gag. I'm a laugh riot at dinner parties.
320: well, if you did, they'll probably speak up, this being the internet and all.
heart patients
The type of fat makes a difference for them?
317: That stuff is wrong. We have a Native American festival in the park near my apartment in the summer, and they sell fry-bread with strawberries and cream on it (yeah, which I'm sure is inauthentic. They also sell it without the stuff on it). Sally and Newt end up making audible "Nomnomnomnom" noises as they scarf it.
323: IME, they often seem to think it does.
There must be many people who have the reaction that Flippanter describes in 321. But always when I read a comment like that which is also true of someone I know, I have a moment of panic / excitement: omigod Friend X reads unfogged!
"Authenticity" is an overrated concept in general, but especially so when it comes to frybread.
ever have a proper devonshire cream tea, LB?
Yep. I'm in the clear on that -- Buck watched me get myself through law school with the most godawful workavoidant set of habits (the only serious piece of writing I did took an exorbitant amount of time, mostly spent sitting at the computer not working, interspersed with vocal self-loathing). So my inability to do anything in a focused fashion has been out in the open since well before we were married.
Similar, and yet somehow it is still suggested from time to time that I maybe ought to get a little more focused.
I was embarassed to acknowledge the slacker aspect of it.
Like LB, this was way out in the open beforehand. The SO stayed with me through the year I was unemployed and not looking for a job (although towards the end it was close); posting comments to blogs isn't going to faze her.
328: Depends on the standard of propriety. I've certainly had scones with clotted cream (which, very nice).
The wife checked out my Flickr a couple months ago. Why have so many people clicked on that basket of eels?
It doesn't end up tasting like pork at all.
I made a pie crust the other night using a tablespoon of bacon drippings in place of a tablespoon of butter. It did not suffer pork flavor deficiency. Whether this was fortunate for the chicken pot pie in question is still a subject of some debate.
308, 314: AFAIK the only exception to my sister's vegetarianism is my mom's pie crust.
329: Oh, wow, an opportunity to open up and explore an entirely new area of oppressive gender roles. But I have to leave for parent teacher conferences soon, so probably a poor idea.
333: Ooh, that sounds nice. But bacon grease is much porkier/less purified than lard.
331: oh, nothing too stringent, I didn't mean `in cornwall' or whatever. Just that the scones have to be real scones, and the clotted creme from unpastuerized milk, not faking it with milk and whipped cream.
yummy! But that stuff must be 60 % or so fat content.
This place does a nice cream tea if you're in NY, and isn't exorbitantly expensive.
338: Afternoon tea for one is $30.00? Is that a typo?
dob wins the pork prize. That sounds fantastic.
335: Nah, not particularly gender-based. She likes working better than I do and is generally happy about that. But every now and then she gets herself overwhelmed and burnt out and thinks she wants to quit, or she thinks it would be nice to have the sort of material lifestyle that would be possible if I were putting more of my mental energy into income-generating pursuits (e.g. staying in private practice and doing the partner thing). There's some gendered element to it, but mostly it's just us, and most of the time my bumping along as I do is provides an element of balance. If I wanted to be really flippant I'd say that we have complementary bipolarities.
But you can just buy the scone & the tea for less than that. I've never had finger sandwiches, but how good could they be?
bragging: I had cream tea on the 7th floor of the Tate Modern in London last week, & came home with two big tins of Fortnum & Mason.
328. I spent a year going to school in Taunton, Somerset. Clotted cream for everything!
339: It can easily be 2 or maybe even 3 times that, given a fancy pastry chef & location.
Of course, you can make scones and buy (if you can find it) c.c. for a few bucks.
344 was probably unclear. Often those expensive packages are really a meal, with fancy pastries too. I'd assume just a cup of tea and a scone or two isn't exhorbitant.
I'll make finger sandwiches for bridge sometimes because it feels all 50s housewifeish. Do you know what is totally fantastic? A sturdy white or wheat bread, hummus, shredded carrots, thinly sliced cucumber, and olive spread (with the crusts cut off, of course). I only made that as a "eh, I should probably have something for the vegan" concession but DAMN I loved it. I've made that for myself for dinner many times since.
I was pleasantly surprised by the phenomenon of clotted cream in my one encounter with it, in the Land of the Tea Cozies.
Translate the $30 into pounds and it doesn't seem so bad.
I actually didn't look at the price when I linked -- I hadn't been there in years, and was thinking it was cheaper than that. But still, it's less than you'd pay lots of places.
349: but more than the 3 course prix fixe at many of NYC's finest and chichiest restaurants.
That's a more involved take on "afternoon tea" than I'm used to, so there's that to take into account, I guess. Just seems strange.
Yeah, I really wouldn't have linked it as reasonably priced if I'd looked.
352: It doesn't look exorbitantly expensive to me. I guess I'm used to the NYC prices.
I want some beans on toast.
I wonder if this is a good time to hijack the thread to ask for advice on finding somewhere to live in New York. I'm looking for something in the range of what people on a humanities grad school stipend could rent (although I'm not in grad school anymore). I really don't know the neighborhoods, having spent probably less than 15 days total in the city in my entire life.
351: In north america, some places make a really frou-frou deal of it, as it is unusual. You'd think more like $10, wouldn't you?
Why yes, it would be a bad time to hijack the thread. I remember having afternoon tea on some family vacation in British Columbia that turned out to be somewhat expensive in the way that restaurant's tea for one is expensive: that is, more than you'd think for something called "tea", but it included pastries and stuff.
eb, I recommend Brooklyn. Consider Williamsburg, although it can be really irksome. Cobble Hill/Boerum Hill/Park Slope/Fort Greene/Gowanus/Prospect Heights is another big chunk of livable territory, surrounded by other neighborhoods that are also fine. You can find workable rent if you look hard.
OTOH, if what you mean by "grad school stipend" is what I lived on in grad school, you'll need to look farther out. Elmhurst and Jackson Heights in Queens are neighborhoods where you can find cheap rents and which I consider perfectly enjoyable.
Feel free to email me if you have questions about specific neighborhoods, etc. My pseud at the domain in my link will reach me.
Eb, when are you moving? how much time do you have to find a place?
356: Wasn't at the Empress hotel by any chance?
eb, check out Bay Ridge (Brooklyn). I grew up there, and my sister lived there post-college. It's not hip, and it's a fairly shitty train ride, but it is both decently nice and decently affordable.
355: Yeah, or like, $30 for two would make more sense. But I guess I shouldn't complain -- that's like, three Canadian dollars anyway, these days.
357: Thanks, I'll probably be in touch.
358: I'm aiming for the week after Thanksgiving, so that's not too much time. On the other hand, I could sublet for a short time and keep looking when I get there. I don't know if I'll be in New York past the spring.
that's like, three Canadian dollars anyway
[Cries, bangs head against desk with more-than-usual hopelessness]
361 may be slightly exaggerating the recent fluctuations in exchange rates.
356: Wasn't at the Empress hotel by any chance?
It was in Victoria, but that hotel doesn't look familiar. It was maybe 20 years ago, so I was pretty young. I've been to Victoria a couple of other times (but never had tea again) and those memories seem to have pushed out most of the older ones.
365: Well, it was an obvious choice. Victoria has a `little bit of Olde England' tourist schtick going on, and that Hotel particularly would be the sort of place for a snooty high tea. Couple others, too.
364: Yes, but some of us liked the 65 cent loonie just fine.
bad time to hijack the thread
Sorry, then.
My wife doesn't know about Unfogged, but I am newly delurked. That said, I did wonder how I would explain to her that I wanted to attend a brunch of imaginary internet people this past weekend, but was relieved of having to do so by our excessively packed schedule. Next time, though ...
And, ZOMFG, that article about the girl and myspace. I was bullied in elementary school, mostly. Much less so later. Now, I have a son in second grade who has a rather exotic visual impairment, which is difficult enough for us, his parents, to understand and accommodate. He is not being bullied yet that I know of, nor do I know of bullying as a phenomenon in his second grade class, but I fear it is in his future.
I vividly remember when, in the fourth grade, I had been a victim for a year already, and there was a boy who moved in with a family on my street as a foster child. We were friends, but I was too self-interested to stick up for him during school, having been the victim so long myself.
Mrs. H-L and I honeymooned in Victoria. We didn't manage a high tea, but it was otherwise lovely.
I had tea at the Empress. $30 a person for a fancy and filling delight is not unreasonable. The effect can be reproduced at home for much less, but most places that do high tea do it really well.
I faced some minor bullying when I moved into public school in 8th grade. My dad was representing members of a criminal biker gang, and proposed having one of them pick me up at school. Shoulda followed through. I got through by not understanding what it meant to be "called out", and eventually becoming less friendless.
$30 a person for a fancy and filling delight is not unreasonable.
Come to think of it, the Banff Springs charges about that much for high tea. I just think of the Banff Springs in the "expensive, chi-chi" register, is all.
370: Wow, had almost forgotten about being "called out". I think I had the same defense against it as you. What's that? You're formally inviting me to be beaten up? Let my check my calendar... nope, can't quite find time for that after school today!
"Called out" = pistols at dawn?
Happy birthday Will! You're older than I am, so nyah.
I'd go farther and say that I would guess that everyone of us has been a bully at one time or another.
Truly, no. I was always the person who stood up for the kids being bullied and told the bullies to knock it off.
More like fists and grappling 15 minutes after the school's-out bell.
"Called out" = pistols at dawn? shirts over heads by the bike racks at four?
374: Male bullies and victims?
And omg, that link in 149--it wasn't the *kids* who drove the girl to suicide. It was *parents*.
Yeah, I'd probably be in jail, too.
Yeah, Bay Ridge is worth considering. A friend of mine lived in Bensonhurst for a while and didn't mind it as a neighborhood, although the train ride was fairly punishing.
I've also heard that people live just across the Hudson in places like Hoboken, although I've also heard that near-in Jersey isn't nearly as cheap as it used to be.
I think I had the same defense against it as you.
I showed up to my first one of those when I was 12 and beat the hell out of another kid in front of like 30-50 other students.
Not a solution for everyone I guess, but "fighting isn't the answer" isn't necessarily true.
That's where she got her handle.
380: I used to get bullied by a couple of kids in Hebrew school. One day I was waiting for my mom to show up, and they started in on me; by the time she arrived, I was really upset and just wanted to get the hell out of there, but she wouldn't leave. She insisted that I stand up to them... so I got out of the car, marched across the lawn to where they were talking to one of the teachers, and just started whaling on them. It ended up being a draw, but I didn't get any shit from them after that.
Wikipedia says Welcome Back Kotter was set in Bensonhurst. I'm ok with longish train rides as long as there aren't too many transfers. I should look up the address of where I'll be commuting to.
Brooklyn's great, eb. Prospect Heights/Crown Heights area is really accessible, cheap, and getting fun.
I was bullied pretty relentlessly from 4th-6th, which was, not coincidentally, the time in my life when I was actively suicidal. For a long time as an adult, I tried to figure out what my imbalance was that I was depressed during those years, but I finally figured out I wasn't depressed; I was just fucking miserable about school.
The worst was the bullying I got at church during those years. Some girls figured out I was "funny" when I got mad, so they'd tease me about boys they imagined I liked until I yelled at them. When I once lost it and told them to "fuck off," they began a campaign to try to get me to rededicate my life to Christ so I would leave off my evil swearing. Assholes.
In seventh grade, I learned that calling people out was a good way to get them to stop bullying me. I'd just turn around, look them dead in the eye, and threaten to beat the shit out of them. It worked, in that I never actually had to fight anyone and the bullying finally stopped.
Kensington's pretty nice, and still cheap. It's in central Brooklyn, it's residential, if you can get a place on the Q/B it will be a reasonable commute into Manhattan. Email Bald Lurker Chris for his opinion. He has a very nice apartment there.
381: A rare instance of female privilege at work!
by the bike racks at four?
Surely I've told the story of having this arrangement with a kid who not only didn't show, but was in the principal's office the next day when they called me in, explaining that "his lawyer" had advised him not to get into any more fights? Wow, did I live in the suburbs.
388: Now you're just making shit up.
387: To some extent, yes. I did get hit a few times for it, but since I learned early on to radiate disdain towards those worthy of it, mostly the way things worked, somehow, is that I'd just say/act like the bullies were being idiots, and they'd leave me alone. I remember one lunch in middle school where someone threatened to beat me up, and I said, "okay, fine, but wait until I finish my lunch." I was scared, so I dawdled. Apparently my false indifference made the bully feel stupid, and she (in this case) sort of just wandered off.
Heh, I just remembered another good story from middle school: one of the resident drug dealers offered me some pot, once, and I said, "what would you do if I said yes?" He laughed and said, "it would be on the house, girl."
You know, if B had stayed in Bakersfield she would have been somebody there.
I got expected harassment for being the smart girl with giant nerd glasses (basically the same model as Little Miss Sunshine), but honors track saved me from the worst of it (there was one jerk in my homeroom class in junior high). My problem was more excessive shyness & crappiness at making friends due to fear of rejection--worst was 8th grade, when my best friend moved away & I knew no one. This thawed gradually during high school but I always was lousy at taking things from friendly-chats-at-school to actual friends, except w/ the school newspaper. There were people who were the super-nerds even in the honors classes; I wasn't one of them, just sort of socially invisible.
I'm still terrible about introducing myself to strangers. I was just saying to my husband: our lives are this really strange combination of impressive & glamorous, & totally pathetic.
I was supposed to get beat up twice more in high school, both times by the same football player. The first time was for spreading rumors about his girlfriend's sister -- a dumb move.
The second time was more creative. Two friends of mine wrote an unsigned essay explaining that penis size and IQ were directly correlated. It referred to "the power-seeking, paranoid, small penised clan: the smelly, stupid jocks." They gave it to me to distribute.
Somehow I managed to miss that appointment as well.
393: This was in Stockton. But yeah, basically same thing.
First one's always free.
In the funniest of all possible worlds, Ogged's story would be true. Ergo, it is true.
First one's always free.
Yeah, probably, but in context it was pretty clear that what he meant was that he'd be so surprised and pleased that he'd waive the usual charge. In any case, I didn't take him up on it.
It's a true story. God, that was an absurd time. The kid was well over six feet tall and I was in the principal's office pleading my "I'm not the bully here" case. "Height doesn't always make might, Ogged." God, what a bunch of bastards they were, and how this kid could sit through the humiliation of having it explained to me that maybe he really is a big wimp and I could have hurt him, I don't know.
From about 3rd grade on, I was in the 85th percentile for height and 99th for weight, so I didn't get "bullied" (except in a very few isolated incidents) so much as taunted. But a lot of it was pretty merciless taunting -- at school, around the neighborhood and at church. There was a week at the beginning of 4th grade when some older kids jumped me and my friend 3 times in a row after school. The final time, they got chased away by a teenager, and we didn't have any real problems after that. I was lucky to go to a small, laid-back K-8 school for jr. high, otherwise I'm sure I would have been eaten alive during those years (it was bad enough with the taunting, even given that a mainstream jr. high would have been ten times worse.)
It's kind of an odd experience to be much larger and older than younger boys who are trying to bully you. I was having a problem at my bus stop in 5th grade, I think, with this little 8 year-old shit who came there with his grandmother ferchrissakes, who always stood by and watched when he hassled me. After a few days I got sick of it and threw some sand in his eyes. He went away sobbing and his grandmother was all "You shouldn't do that, he's smaller than you!" The fuck? I'm pretty sure I came back with something along the lines of "If you didn't like it, you should have stopped him from messing with me."
Like I've always said -- wholesome as shit.
401: B, that is. Not Minneapolitan.
I didn't really get in many fight-fights in school, despite the frequent threats.
Last day of one year in middle school, as I was walking my bike out the back way, a guy came up with a 2-liter soda bottle filled with water and said "I'm going to pour this on your head." I said "okay." He did. I said "thanks." (It was about 90 degrees out.) He said "you take all the fun out of being mean." I went on my way.
I was such a social pariah in high school that in a P.E. class, a guy punched me in the jaw rather than have me as his doubles tennis partner. I kinda wish I'd hit him back, but I just went to the coach and got repartnered.
A frienemy slammed me up against a wall of lockers once when I disparaged his performance in a recent Physics exam in front of my current girlfriend who just happened to be his ex-girlfriend. I totally deserved it.
399. That puts me in mind of another incident -- there was a guy in my drafting class who was endlessly giving me shit. Passing him in the hall one day I casually reached out and slapped him hard in the chest. Later in class he tripped me as I was going by; the teacher sent us both to the VP's office. I explained what happened, and the VP said to me "are you sure you didn't just trip and fall by yourself?" Why, yes, since he's from Los Altos, and has friends, and I'm from Mountain View, and have no friends, clearly he cannot be a bad person. I am so sorry to have bothered you. I will return to class now.
398: I didn't take him up on it.
Funny, I'm trying to think of a time in high school when I didn't take someone up on an offer like that. Nothing comes to mind. Oh, except twitchy guy who tried to talk me into taking acid with him.
399 makes me laugh and laugh.
400: "If you didn't like it, you should have stopped him from messing with me."
Assuming he's still around, I wonder if that kid now tells that as an "I was bullied in school" story.
School administrators are basically the lowest form of life (after John Yoo). Around the time of the lawyer incident, they called my mom in and had a not much longer version of this conversation:
"We think Ogged is a discipline problem."
"I think you're a bunch of racists."
Of course, she came home and let me have it, explaining in good minority style that they were looking for an excuse to get me, and I couldn't give them one. So I shaped up immediately, and they were so shocked that they called me for a conference, and with all the subtlety that middle school administrators are known for, tried to get me to say that my mom hit me. "And what does you mom do when she's upset?" "A lot of yelling." "Anything else?" "No, just a lot of yelling and screaming." "Are you sure?"
Of course, she totally hit me, but the Iranian way was none of their damn business, and my schoolwork was stellar so they had nothing to go on there. God, no wonder I hate school so much.
I used to stand up for the picked-upon. This made my parents proud and me a social pariah, and the target of a few attempted beatings, but I knew how to hit back and really had no qualms about doing so so it didn't happen too often.
shivbunny has a story of being a short picked-upon kid whose bullies were put in their place by his bad-boy older cousin who wore a knife to school picking them up and throwing them. Then he had a growth spurt and didn't need his cousin's help any more.
Our children are going to be holy terrors.
with all the subtlety that middle school administrators are known for, tried to get me to say that my mom hit me.
Holy shit. Okay, I don't feel so victimized by my high school VP now.
Wow, you're all doing such a fine job of making me feel guilty about sending my kid to private school.
My middle school years were unpleasant in a totally PG way. In high school I had friends but was way too nerdy to take full advantage of it.
she totally hit me, but the Iranian way was none of their damn business
But this is the soft bigotry of low expectations, no?
But this is the soft bigotry of low expectations, no?
She feels horrible about it now and I don't think you should hit your kids (other people's kids, on the other hand...), but they weren't asking out of concern for my welfare, so fuck 'em.
Of course, nowadays they'd just waterboard you til you admitted that your mom was molesting you.
Assuming he's still around, I wonder if that kid now tells that as an "I was bullied in school" story.
I doubt it: the other cops would make fun of him.
Thanks people!
Happy birthday Will! You're older than I am, so nyah.
Bitch, I thought you crossed before me?
406: No, that was 7th grade. But it's true that I never smoked pot until college, and then only a couple times.
There is no such thing as a fight anymore.
Your options are:
1. Two people both committing the crime of assault and battery.
2. One person battering the other who has the defense of self-defense. (Very, very limited.)
I had one guy argue it was self-defense because the other guy swung first. I said, "But, you ripped your shirt off and circled around him shouting 'BRING IT ON MOTHERFUCKER!!!!'"
421: Slightly.
420: Unless one of the people happens to be a minor and the other their parent, in which case wale away.
383 reminds me that my worst bullying was also in Hebrew school. I had an embarrassing Hebrew name, and they never let me forget it. I ended up picking a new one, which was, frankly, pretty much an admission of defeat.
My sister hated Hebrew school. No physical violence, but the kids in her class were mean, mean, mean. My class was a lot better, so I didn't mind it as much.
416: I was just taking the piss in 415. He's probably an insurance adjuster or something and I pass him every day in the skyway at lunch.
The only real delayed instant karma story I have is that the guy who was one of my closest friends in 7th grade, who then betrayed me at the end of the year in a particularly galling and hurtful way, wound up spending the next 17 or 18 years of his life stoned out of his mind on anything he could get his hands on. The last several years he was in thrall to methamphetamine. I guess he finally cleaned up his act a couple of years ago, but I doubt he even remembers half of what went on in that time. (We wound up being friendly again in HS, but by that time he was pretty much checked out, so it was like being friendly with a goofy, semi-coherent zombie.)
408: Ogged is a credit to his people.
424: Schmuel Motherfucker, I assume.
Agreement re: religious-school bullying: I was far more ostracized in my religious/private junior high than any other time in my long career of being the perpetual new kid (I switched schools pretty much every year or two until high school). In high school my only trouble was with authority, which just irritated me & which I yanked around by being the smartest kid in a rural public school (the only time test scores ever mattered!).
427: I was just taking the piss in 415.
Ach, should've known it was too good to be true!
429: Can't be, that's an awesome Hebrew name.
Actually, "Schmuel" is Yiddish, I think.
So's "motherfucker". (Little known fact.)
What was the embarrassing Hebrew name?
Mendel.
Which isn't really a Hebrew name, it's Yiddish. My full Hebrew name is, believe it or not, Menachem Mendel. I was too young when I first started Hebrew school to realize that I should have said "Menachem" instead of "Mendel," because that's how my uncle (who suggested the name, apparently) always referred to me.
Here I was wondering why my attempt to pick a fight with the first sentence of 411 got no reaction, and then I got far enough into my catching up to realize that you already had the education-management thread yesterday.
So, it was embarrassing just because it was Yiddish?
Schmuel Motherfucker, I assume.
I wish. I know what I'm naming my first-born son, though.
So, it was embarrassing just because it was Yiddish?
No, because it rhymes with "mental," I guess? And is just basically nerdy sounding? I never really got it, but I got teased.
(My wife, by the way, and to pull the thread back to the original topic, has just vetoed John's suggestion.)
(My wife. . . has just vetoed John's suggestion.)
Not to worry, I'm sure one of us can make use of it.
What exactly is meant by "my Hebrew name"? Is this one's everyday name translated into Hebrew? Or is it an extra name, taken for religious purposes?
Really dumb question, I know.
Unless one of the people happens to be a minor and the other their parent, in which case wale away.
Not so much anymore. A parent's ability to beat their child has been greatly restricted. Often, no tools can be used. All marks must disappear before the police arrive.
Actually, "Schmuel" is Yiddish, I think.
No, it's Hebrew for "Samuel."
What exactly is meant by "my Hebrew name"? Is this one's everyday name translated into Hebrew? Or is it an extra name, taken for religious purposes?
The latter.
Actually, "Schmuel" is Yiddish, I think.
No, it's Hebrew for "Samuel."
That "c" is what's making it look Yiddish. Shmuel? Shmuel.
That "c" is what's making it look Yiddish.
I don't know about that. That's German orthography.
Because Emerson's a Nazi, of course.
Don't argue with me, teo. Josh already admitted I'm the messiah.
We get religious names for some reason when we're confirmed as Catholics. You had to pick a saint's name and then do a report. And then you never use the name again.
We use ours quite a bit. They're given at birth.
And given that we're all thirteen when this happens, it's a good thing that there aren't any Saint Raven Skylars or Jack Bauers.
My son (3) called me when he got home from preschool today:
"Something happened at school that made me sad and I cried."
"What happened?"
"XXXX pushed me"
"Why did XXXX push you?"
"Because I said I like the Yankees."
XXXX is probably 4, it's a mixed age classroom. My wife, of course, blames this on me for telling him we like the Yankees and says it's going to happen the rest of his life that we're in Boston and why is society (and you) so obsessed with stupid sports, etc.
And bringing the thread full circle, I told her I might post this story on here because the topic had turned to bullying, so let's see if she finds it.
442 etc. It's great isn't it --- you can't punch someone too hard if they assault you, but in parts of the country you can just shoot them if they wander onto your property by accident, or looking for help.
Also, nearly all women saints are 'virgin, martyr, or founded order of virgin martyrs.'
455: or so they'd have you believe.
Lapsed Methodists get to have sex and ham sandwiches.
sou biscuit:
My comments do not apply to Texas or Florida where you apparently can shoot people relatively easily.
sou biscuit:
My comments do not apply to Texas or Florida where you apparently can shoot people relatively easily.
telling him we like the Yankees and says it's going to happen the rest of his life that we're in Boston
Are you crazy? Didn't you see The Departed?
Only Methodists think that ham sandwiches are among the advantages of their religion. Also, no cool special names.
Only Methodists think that ham sandwiches are among the advantages of their religion.
Seriously. Of all the fantastic applications of the pig, surely we can agree that the ham sandwich is the least fantastic.
461: 457 was alluding to an old joke involving a priest and a rabbi and was not meant to be taken particularly seriously, but yes, such humor value as the joke possesses lies in the pwnage of the priest by the rabbi on the issue of how big a deal ham sandwiches are in the universe of things one's religion might forbid.
Also, nearly all women saints are 'virgin, martyr, or founded order of virgin martyrs.'
And some of them died quite gruesome deaths.
I was genuinely shocked the first time I saw (or noticed) the lower-case virgin applied to a regular person, as a descriptor that had something to do with sex. It's not that I didn't have a very dim awareness that the upper-case term had something to do with sex (or lack thereof), but I really thought it was only meant to be used for saints.
Of all the fantastic applications of the pig, surely we can agree that the ham sandwich is the least fantastic.
I'll grant that the ham sandwich is pretty uninspiring, but most days I would take it over pickled snout.
Most days.
417:
Happy birthday, will!
I thought you crossed before me?
Oh, so this is the new term for reaching (or passing) 40? "To cross"? Y'all are a discredit to your cohort. Sheesh.
464: That's funny. The first time I came in contact with any Catholic stuff, I was appalled that they kept talking about virgins and stuff. It all sounded really pervy and obsessive to these Baptist ears.
She feels horrible about it now
My mom also has guilt for hiting me when I was a kid. When I started having kids she said something about not spanking.
Me: (laughing my ass off) "This from the woman who took a belt to me a couple times."
Mom: "I feel really bad about that! Don't spank your kids."
some of them died quite gruesome deaths.
Has anyone seen the movie Millions?
I had fromage a tete (aka headcheese) on Saturday for the first time. It was phenomenal.
471: Yeah, I've never understood why people get fussed up about that. Basically ham jello that you can put on a sandwich, right? What's not to like?
I had fromage a tete (aka headcheese) on Saturday for the first time. It was phenomenal.
I took a meat processing class in college and headcheese was the one thing that we made where the making of it made me not want to eat it.
468:
My mom says the same thing.
Parsimon: I was kidding. 40 is no different from 39.
Thanks for all the Brooklyn recommendations. That helps me narrow things down quite a bit.
441-444: It's often, but not always, an equivalent of your given name. My name comes straight out the bible, so my Hebrew name is the direct Hebrew equivalent, followed by "ben-Yosef", or "son of Yosef", which is a rougher equivalent of my father's less Biblical given name.
473:
40 is no different from 39
Ha! So you say now, now that you're called to account. (You are aware that I, uh, 'crossed' a couple of years ago?)
Anyway, the Catholic name-adoption: me, Teresa, or Theresa. I've no memory of which saint she was, but I was apparently taken by her when I was 13. Either that, or just picked something out of a hat, under pressure. I must have written a report on her, as Cala notes, but damned if I can remember a bit of it. Age, you know.
476: Yeah, the patronymic is an important part of it.
475: But don't overlook Queens. At the cheapish rent level (there's no cheap rent in NYC), I'd say that Queens (eg, Astoria, Sunnyside, Woodside) has quicker access to Manhattan.
St. Jadwiga of Poland .... is venerated by the Roman Catholic Church as Saint Hedwig (Jadwiga) the Queen. She is the Patron Saint of queens, and of United Europe.
At age 12 she was married to the 36 year old King of Lithuania Jagiello, the last pagan ruler in Europe.
So, no virgin.
cheapish rent level (there's no cheap rent in NYC)
I will shortly need similar advice for Palo Alto, America's Most Expensive College Town.
Oh, so you're not going to move the family in with me? Fine.
But don't overlook Queens. At the cheapish rent level (there's no cheap rent in NYC), I'd say that Queens (eg, Astoria, Sunnyside, Woodside) has quicker access to Manhattan.
Very true. All good neighborhoods, as is Jackson Heights, which has all kinds of great food, some good places to live, and is only about 15 minutes on the E train from mid-town.
Oh, so you're not going to move the family in with me? Fine.
Attractive as this is, right now the budget says moving the family for the year entails a deficit of an astonishing $45K. So they may not be coming. If you can secure an advance from the TV studios maybe could change.
All good neighborhoods, as is Jackson Heights
All I know is that traffic jams in Harlem back up to Jackson Heights.
481: But you'll be living with Ogged and his mother, right?
Don't they have university housing? Or perhaps some kind of sublet from a faculty member who's going abroad on a sabbatical or something?
480: Not every marriage is consummated, Emerson. Though in that case, not a real marriage, so....But anyway, virginity is not a requirement for saintliness. And she gets extra points if she converted her pagan husband.
All I know is that traffic jams in Harlem back up to Jackson Heights.
I also hear that there's a scout troop short a child, and that Khrushchev's due at Idlewild.
Also, upon further reflection, 120 isn't entirely off-topic in that I am indeed a frequent commenter here but did not use my "real" pseudonym because, while there is no shame in you all knowing that I have a cool RL friend who organizes cool events, and even though I would love if swarms of you and your loved ones showed up, I would feel weird if you all told one of my RL friends or neighbors or colleagues I sent you.
She did convert her husband, and she did have a child eventually.
And you know, pagans. They consummate their marriages.
I've told you I know a nun who had 12 kids, didn't I?
481: As someone who lives in Palo Alto, yes, it can be a bitch. But there are definitely areas that are nice enough & cheap enough; & there's always the fact that you can live elsewhere on the peninsula & commute, though that can get tricky.
Also, if you can, try moving here in the off-season--during the summer, sometime, after classes go out of session, or well before or after classes go back into session in the autumn. I don't know how soon you are moving out here to The Fantastic Biodome, but if you want a lengthier discussion of places to live in the area, feel free to email me.
If you can secure an advance from the TV studios maybe could change.
"And his wife is also an academic, see. It's going to be craaaazy!"
It shouldn't be hard to find a place for one person. Stanford has off-campus housing listings that are available only to affiliated folks, and those tend to be pretty good, so get someone with an affiliation (like that unhelpful wretch, Ben w-lfs-n) to hook you up. Also what IA said about a faculty sublet; you might be able to score a nice place that way.
Don't they have university housing?
In my case, no.
Or perhaps some kind of sublet from a faculty member who's going abroad on a sabbatical or something?
Sure, but expensive. It'd be doable, but the real problem is having to still pay the mortgage at home (HOA covenants forbid sublets), together with substantially increased childcare costs, and do all this on about 75 percent of present income. Increased costs plus decreased income = immediately unsustainable budget, if you are not a large country.
there's always the fact that you can live elsewhere on the peninsula & commute, though that can get tricky.
This is not an option either, unfortunately.
right now the budget says moving the family for the year entails a deficit of an astonishing $45K.
Holy crap! You (you in the singular, I mean) should definitely move in with Ogged, and do chores for him in exchange for a reduction in rent. He might make you write blog posts, though, and I hear he's a bit fussy about lentil cookery.
This thread isn't called "married to the mineshaft" for nothing.
492: No car? If that's it, then there are still ways of managing it. If some other reason--well, I've just found that persistence with the craigslisting works out all right. Even though I'm also an affiliate of the university, I've never really used their resources to find housing, though it's always worth sending an email to whoever runs the mailing lists for your department; some people seem to have luck with that.
We get religious names for some reason when we're confirmed as Catholics. You had to pick a saint's name and then do a report.
I didn't; I used my given name, which is totally not a saint's name. I had a cool priest.
Gonerill, if you take the family, can't you sublet the house you currently have and hopefully cover (most of) the mortgage that way?
Oh, you said you can't sublet. Never mind. Your HOA sucks.
492: No car?
No, no (and thanks for the advice above). Sorry, I don't mean to be coy: without saying enough to strip all the layers off my already thin pseud, accepting the offer to go there entails living right in or very close to town. As I say, a room or small place for myself will be no trouble per se. It's moving the family that's turning out to be impossibly expensive.
498: Of course (hence mentioning email); & yes, as someone who's never had to find housing for a family here, I can imagine that that would be shockingly expensive, especially given that the move isn't permanent. Good luck, in any case--!
For eb -- you really need to know where you're trying to commute to. My neighborhood (Inwood or Washington Heights) is as cheap as lots of Brooklyn or Queens. The question is just where you're going to need to get to. Look at this map, and figure out where you're going to need to get to, and which subway line it's on. Then ask for advice about cheap neighborhoods on that line.
The subway map is key. Once you know the line you want, it'll narrow things right down.
I went to an RC school where the two predominant ethnicities were Irish and Italian. What I remember about Confirmation (and admittedly, this remembrance does not reflect well on me) is being envious of the Italian kids, because they got serious money. Yeah, my uncle gave me a card, with five dollars. And my friend Madelena? her uncle gave her a card...with the equivalent of a dowry.
I was just kidding in 501, of course. The subway map is just what I need; now I just have to find out the exact street address.
503: Jews are more like Italians in this respect. Bar mitzvah time can mean some serious cash.
My sister and I went to a sort of "Chinese school" on Saturdays and for a week or two in the summer for a while as kids. It was more cultural stuff than anything else. I was much, much more left out of social things at that school than at regular school (but bullying was never a problem in either place). My sister wasn't very happy either and after a while we convinced our parents to stop sending us there. Looking back, both of us think our unhappiness with the place was at least partly related to our not being "entirely" Chinese(-American), while most kids had two Chinese or Chinese-American parents.
505: Duh, that's because you have all the money.
506: There's a Japanese school down the street from our house that's been there since God only knows when. We sent my son there for a couple of years, but he lost interest when they started actually trying to make the kids learn Japanese.
eb, I'd also recommend using Hopstop as you start finding addresses of places you might want to live. It might not be readily apparent to you how you'd get to one place or another, and Hopstop really helps figure out transfers, bus routes, walking routes, etc., especially if you futz with the preferences. Plus, the time estimates are surprisingly accurate, at least during the week.
I'd like to think that I'd have been more interested if there had been a serious chance of learning Chinese. We did some calligraphy things - leaning to sign our names - but that was about it.
Duh, that's because you have all the money.
Yep. And intend to keep it, by G-d.
Hebrew school tends to really suck, because most of the kids don't want to go to another hour and half of school once they're done with regular school, and it's usually just their parents who really care that they learn Hebrew. They don't generally learn Hebrew so much as learn the Hebrew alphabet and enough basic vocabulary to recite the prayers accurately for their b'nai mitzvah without necessarily understanding any of it. It can be really good with good teachers, though.
I recommend that you not move to hell on earth New York, eb.
I went to an RC school where the two predominant ethnicities were Irish and Italian
Heh- I went to a Jesuit HS for my freshman year. there was a Black Student union, a Hispanic Student Union, and an Irish Student Union. Pictures in the yearbook and everything.
The "married to the mineshaft" post title is disturbing indeed.
503:
What I remember about Confirmation (and admittedly, this remembrance does not reflect well on me) is being envious of the Italian kids, because they got serious money.
I guess I'm thankful that I grew up as a military brat, moving every 3 years until I was 12, so that the Confirmation ritual I participated in didn't have any of this overshadowing: I barely knew the other kids at that point, and wasn't cognizant of the fact that family ties or heritage resonated so deeply with people.
And I don't think I understand Gonerill's situation well-enough to be able to give helpful advice, but I did know a grad student with a family a few years ago (during the tech boom) who found a reasonably-priced place in East Palo Alto.
I know what you're talking about LB.
This morning at breakfast I was trying to get my partner interested in the Academy argument (or the run down of it, anyway).
I keep bringing up Unfogged so that I won't be being secretive, but I don't think he's that interested. He's pretty concerned about personal information getting leaked though. I have a feeling my pseud might get googled. (If so) Hi, partner.
Suppose your participation mainly consisted of occasionally laughing along with someone else's cruel joke at the expense of the easy-target geek in the hallway, and that the rest of the time you were just indifferent to them. From their perspective, would you be distinguishable from the people who tormented them relentlessly day-in and day-out, or would you all merge for them into more or less a single category?
IIRC, this was almost worse because they'd appeared indifferent, therefore safe. To have them side with a bully increased the feeling of the world as an insane place. So no, no merging for me.
I am so sad after reading that link.
East Palo Alto? Even now, not for everyone.
When littlest calasis was attending CCD classes in preparation for Confirmation, she had a very zealous and passionate instructor. He decided to go on at length about the powerful faith of the martyrs, and for emphasis he had an apple and a knife. Would you have such faith? he asked. Could you die for it? And he stabbed the apple.
And held it out meaningfully. To get the kids to ponder martyrdom. In front of my sister. Who plucked it off the end of the knife and took a bite.
The fact that the poor man is my father's best friend only makes that story better.
In east Palo Alto, born and raised.
On the playground is where I spent most of my days.
He said something about one side of 101 being a lot better than the other.
Anyway, I'm taking the advice in 508 and ignoring 511.
(And by 101 I mean the freeway. Anyway, I never saw the place. I remember being surprised, as all I knew about East Palo Alto was its poor reputation.)
He said something about one side of 101 being a lot better than the other.
That's true. The strip of liquor stores formerly known as "whiskey gulch" has been replaced by a huge new Four Seasons, and the town is definitely gentrifying. Still and all, best to be careful in East Palo Alto.
Anyway, I'm taking the advice in 508 and ignoring 511.
Someone had to at least gesture in the direction of total rejection.
The Megan story (149) - Gawd. How can that not be illegal? And how the HELL could this unnamed adult couple who decided it would be the screamiest fun to taunt and harass Megan manage to excuse themselves of all guilt by "Oh, she tried to commit suicide before, so the fact that she did it after we bullied her systematically doesn't make it OUR fault?"
My favorite recent bullying story: a 12-year-old boy who was sending nasty e-mails to an 11-year-old classmate got a visit from the police at home (the victim's parents reported it, the police traced the e-mails). The police explained to the boy and his parents that sending bullying e-mails is a criminal offence and the boy needed to stop, now, or else he'd be prosecuted. Basically a Stern Warning, delivered in a serious way which compelled both boy and parents to damn well listen.
Did it work?
Maybe it worked on the boy: the boy's parents, however, talked to a local newspaper and were full of: "Oh, our boy was just joking around sending those e-mails! He's a wonderful boy, not a bully! The police TOTALLY over-reacted!"
I'd like to send them a link to Megan's story and ask them if they'd really rather be getting a visit from the police to let them know their wonderful boy is going to be appearing in court because the boy he sent those e-mails to killed himself.
My favorite personal bullying story: the time in class when I realized I'd been maneuvered into sitting in front of two girls who liked to punch me and hit the back of my head, inconspicuously, if I was sitting in front of them. No teacher had ever noticed. So I hesitated conspicuously between the two seats - both girls were saying brightly "Come and sit in front of me" and then, with the teacher glaring at me to sit down, I said clearly "I'm just wondering which one of you I want to have hitting me, since one of you will."
That did it. They never hit me again.
(Though they did complain to me, a couple of days later, that my "telling" on them had got them into real trouble - "the school even rang our parents!")
Back to topic: The Biophysicist reads Unfogged; I don't think he reads any of the other blogs I frequent. I read Dooce to him from time to time and occasionally he links me to photos on the photography forum he hangs out at. Otherwise, our blog paths don't really cross. He's met B and Mr B, but hasn't come to any other meet-up. We have met other people from other fora, [When he was divorcing his wife and was in couples counselling, the therapist kept insisting that the imaginary friends were, in fact, imaginary. My ex-BF felt much the same.]
Re: Bullying - I got beaten up by the girl I replaced as "smartest girl in the class" in fifth grade. She topped me by several inches and 30 pounds, which meant that it wasn't very pleasant. However, it did contribute to my running skills, which made me a great field hockey wing. By junior high, her family had moved and there was a coterie of smart kids who looked out for each other.
The Offspring got into trouble in fifth grade for socking a bully. The bully had been chasing a smaller kid around the playground, calling him "faggot", which was frightening the little kid to tears. As the Offspring put it: "I tried telling him [the bully] to stop, because what he was doing was mean, but he wouldn't, so I said I'd hit him if he didn't stop, and he didn't, so I did."
519, 20: Yeah, the west side of 101 EPA is better because it's basically still Palo Alto, but being technically EPA drives down rent. I hate how neatly the peninsula herds its minority populations into terrible neighborhoods right next to extremely rich ones. Which is, of course, to be expected, but makes me angry whenever I start thinking about it.
523 Good for him. I'm sorry he got hassled for it.
Teo, I'm glad your Facebook friend is ok.
Which is, of course, to be expected, but makes me angry whenever I start thinking about it.
That understates the starkness of the PA/EPA split, at least as of about four years ago, when you could drive over the little bridge at whatsimatsit creek and go in literally twenty feet from totally posh to totally sketchy.
and wasn't cognizant of the fact that family ties or heritage resonated so deeply with people.
I grew up in a backward-looking backwater, where the motley family ties had not yet, or not quite yet, been pitilessly torn asunder.
But that was then, and this is now. These days, we're all working for Citibank, or its equivalent. All hail the death of the family (or its equivalent)! We're finally free!...well, I mean, aren't we?
Proud of you for looking up the name of the creek. BTW, how are the new FEMA maps for your city working out for you?
526: No, it's still like that--possibly somewhat more gentrified now, but driving over the bridge still constitutes a pretty stark experience. One really notices it, too, in the Redwood City/Atherton split (Atherton is truly horrifying: they refuse to let the Caltrain make weekday stops in Atherton, presumably to discourage commuters from taking public transportation). As a former resident of Redwood City, I can say that there are some neighborhoods where it almost seems possible to believe that some of the places lack running water, so decrepit are the areas around the railroad tracks. San Francisco has its really poor neighborhoods, too, but there seems to be more of a transition from wealth to poverty--on the peninsula it's like flipping a switch.
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. I'd really like to be able to help my dad out of a bad situation, but can't do or say anything useful, a situation I'm not used to.
how are the new FEMA maps for your city working out for you?
Hell if I know; I'm a total girl when it comes to reading maps.
Well, if anything on those maps matters to you, you'll find out at the time. No reason to worry your pretty little head before then.
No reason to worry your pretty little head before then.
I've always loved hearing that.
526: I lived right on the menlo park/palo alto/e palo alto border for a bit around '96 or '97 or so. It was pretty stark then. A few years before EPA had the nations highest per capita murder rate (it is pretty small). A couple years after this a new prof at the uni. was shot and killed by some kids from EPA, outside his apartment (in PA proper). He'd only moved there a few months before and everyone was shocked, I remember. So there was definitely still some rough parts.
The bay area was (is?) weird that way. With a good arm, you could throw a baseball across about an average 150k/year income divide
535: I did know about the murder rate statistic, but not the professor shooting--desultory googling attempts don't turn it up, so I'll be wondering about that one for a while. Weird.
536: I think I'm remembering the details correctly, but it was 10 years ago nearly. Perhaps a post-doc? I can't find anything with a cursory google either, but that doesn't say much.
I just did a Nexis search for a professor killed in palo alto between 1996-2001 and found nothing.
now this is going to bug me too. Must have been in 97-00 range. Might have been post-doc, not prof? maybe menlo park rather than PA? I remember a bunch of discussion about it, so can't imagine I just misremembering place or time.
Here you go. It's the last one on the list.
Ah, that must be it. I've got most of the details screwed up, I see. I must be remembering that from a summer I spent down that way, not when I lived there.
That's bizarre. You PA people do know you're living in the south bay equivalent of piedmont, right?
Piedmont Middle School was a never ending source of jokes - or to be precise, one joke - when I was in a rival school.
Did you grow up in Oakland, eb? I thought I was unique in actually having been raised in, rather than having moved to, the BA.
543: In general, PA terrifies me. I derive some satisfaction from the fact that I garner not-infrequent evil-eye stares when walking around in downtown--it's probably the facial piercings & visible tattoos, coupled with the permanent horror etched into my features. But then again, I spent much of my bay-area academic career living in shitty neighborhoods in SF, which mitigated the damage.
Not Oakland, but just north of there. I don't think I ever spent more than a month continuously outside of the Bay Area until my late teens.
What, berkelely or albany or something? It doesn't matter, I'm just happy that I'm not the only one with the dreaded San Francisco values.
If you're from kensington, however, I might have to murder you.
I was in some kids' events - Christmas stuff, maybe something else - hosted at Kensington elementary, but never lived there or went to school there.
Damn. I was this close to justifiable homicide.
San Francisco has its really poor neighborhoods, too, but there seems to be more of a transition from wealth to poverty--on the peninsula it's like flipping a switch.
Start at 21st and Guerrero in San Francisco. Look uphill. Look downhill. Walk three blocks down 21st.
Professor killed in Palo Alto?
Stanford oral tradition version of story. Considering that Stanford is one of the most literate places in the world, it's amazing how much a local story fully covered in the media could be distorted in 22 years.
It's best for all concerned that I never went to grad school, I think.
"I am happy to get out...Stanford treats students criminally. If I express remorse, I would not only be a murderer but a dirty lying dog." When asked if he would do it again, Streleski commented: "As I stand here now, I have no intention of killing again. On the other hand, I cannot predict the future."
Streleski's statement upon his release.
I'm kind of surprised not to have heard of this: my brother was an undergrad at Stanford then.
You know, I don't think that people there at the time appreciated the story the way I do.
Emerson, I'm not sure people today appreciate the story as you do. NTTAWWT
OT, but speaking of stories that Emerson might like, whenever I read about women who love convicted felons too much, I have to wonder what is the appeal. It must have to do with the combination of "tough guy/bad boy" and "rendered powerless and behind bars"?
The criminally misanthropic are hott because they only love you. Plus, if they're in jail, you don't have to compete for their attention.
There's too much prejudice against people who assault others with feces and urine.
Corrections officers (like immigration officers) are not usually the sharpest knifes in the drawer.
Additionally, it's impossible for him to get jealous about how you spend your time because all he knows is what you tell him.
My family has worked in prisons for generations, and the appeal has always been clear to me. Not for romantic relationships, but as a work environment? Hell, yeah.
557 -- Did she know he loved her because he flung shit at her? Or was it because he flung shit at her rival?
560 -- The city fathers of Deer Lodge, Montana were famously given the choice, at (or near) statehood, between the state prison and the ag college.
552: That happened just before my thesis defense. I posted a newspaper clipping in the bulletin board. I passed.
563: True, but not at Yale. My ex probably remembers it. I think all the committee members are dead by now.
It must have to do with the combination of "tough guy/bad boy" and "rendered powerless and behind bars"?
Plausible, but what accounts for men who correspond with women in prison? Fantasies drawn from straight-to-video movies?
When my mother was a prison social worker, one of her duties was censoring mail and intercepting letters that appeared to come from "pen pals", which were forbidden. I think I have mentioned in this forum before that some of her inmates were pretty notorious female criminals. Some of the fan-mail type letters are probably explicable by the quasi-celebrity status they enjoyed.
Best Nigerian spam EVAR. I have immortalized it.
I am headed to my job interview. I don't know why I'm so nervous about it.
Good luck, AWB.
If that spammer wants people to read his shit, he's going to have to learn to use paragraphs better.
566: That is lovely.
I'm trying to think of some linguistic analog to your use of "Nigerian" here. I wonder what other phenomena have become so inextricably linked with a country that we think of them in those terms regardless of the purported origin.
Knock 'em dead, AWB. Or just impress the hell out of them, whichever seems appropriate.
There are dozens of examples in sexual contexts -- start with French kissing and go from there. And plenty of slurs.
574: dozens of examples in sexual contexts
e.g. the "Nantucket Sleighride"
570: Nah, he's just trying to bedazzle people.
I don't know why these guys don't just start out, "I'm a crook, but I trust you even though you're a total stranger, so you can trust me too! Here, give me some money now and than I'll give you a lot more later."
I do know a nice straight-arrow tech lady and mother of five who got scammed for ~$5,000 by a total stranger and obvious crook she had no way of checking up on. It was like she was saying "I've been good all my life, but where's it got me? Crime is free money! I want some!"
There are dozens of examples in sexual contexts -- start with French kissing and go from there. And plenty of slurs.
Also: plenty of examples from gastronomy and fashion.
Sullivan isn't that fat. Just a bear.
The key thing is you need the harpoon to hold on.
566: Very funny, but best EVAR? No colourful tales of former African presidents' fortunes and their dulcet wives desperately trying to move the cash? No deceased client Generals in Iraq? I look to my scammers to bring some drama into my grey little life.
OK, how about "New Directions in Nigerian Spam" or "Nigerian spam goes upscale"?
It's certainly a more literary effort than the norm, I'll give you that.
People who fall for the Nigerian scams garner less sympathy from me than the naive types who get taken by regular old fraud. "Congratulations on winning the auction. I'm currently traveling in Europe to visit relatives, so go ahead and just wire the money directly to this Latvian account."
546: It should, it's a strange place. I used to get the same sort of looks....
This thread seems to be the [in]appropriate place to link to this Facebook friend request.
The creeping hand of totalitarianism is harshing my mellow. I just tried to access urbandictionary.com, and my company's network blocked access ("this site has been identified as non-work-related"). Just the other day I tried to click on a link pointing to a myspace page and was blocked. One of the joys of working here used to be that there was no obvious censorware on the network. The appeal of this company in the labor market to the much sought-after slacker intellectual segment is headed rapidly southward.
587: I really just don't understand how these guys ever take anyone. They might as well be writing "Hello, dear friend, my name is General Obi-wan Kenobi, and I have recently come into a substantial sum of Republic credits..."
Funny, from the second link in 552:
The few grad students I know seem just like undergrads only older and with fixations on WB shows like "Buffy" or "Dawson's Creek."
God, the amount of time I spent in grad school avoiding (or more often, failing to avoid) conversations about "Buffy." It really boggles the fucking mind.
You're unlikely to find "Nantucket Sleighride" on urbandictionary in any case, Knecht.
592: I really just don't understand how these guys ever take anyone. They might as well be writing "Hello, dear friend, my name is General Obi-wan Kenobi, and I have recently come into a substantial sum of Republic credits..."
Send that out enough times and I guarantee people will take the bait. Haven't you ever heard stories about scammers who get women to strip or whathaveyou by explaining that they're aliens sent to Earth and need to do research or send messages back home or some such?
593: Haven't you ever heard stories about scammers who get women to strip or whathaveyou by explaining that they're aliens sent to Earth and need to do research or send messages back home or some such?
Hmmm, no, I hadn't heard this. Tell me more.
You're unlikely to find "Nantucket Sleighride" on urbandictionary in any case, Knecht.
No, actually I was looking for a reference to "rodeo sex", which, according to the "Top Tips" feature of the British magazine Viz, consists of (paraphrased) "taking your Missus from behind, then shouting some other bird's name and seeing how long you can stay on."
590: Wait, Knecht. Your company blocks urbandictionary.com as "not work related," but yet you are still getting through to Unfogged?
Your company blocks urbandictionary.com as "not work related," but yet you are still getting through to Unfogged?
That one slipped through the cracks, apparently. If anyone thought to analyze my network usage I'm sure they would quickly rectify that oversight.
I have an ace in the hole, though: they issued me a 3G wireless card that apparently circumvents the network. Bwaahhhaaahaaahaaa.
The definitive Viz resource is the Profanisaurus. Which contains more euphemistic terms for sexual practices both vile and mundane.
598: Good work, Brock. Were you also able to keep your cowboy hat on for the whole eight seconds?
And since I pretty much missed this thread yesterday...
The story in 149 is insane and I'm with those who would likely have acquitted if Megan's parents had gone ballistic on more than just the foosball table.
The bit about wanting to promote laws to hold people responsible for bullying a 13 year old to death struck me as odd. No, it's not the criminal law, but the whole intentional infliction of emoitional distress tort that's come up here a handful of times seems entirely apt. How do you read that story and not exclaim, "Outrageous!" in relation to the conduct of grown adults? A civil lawsuit seems a very fitting way to hold those people responsible.
589- Hey, that's funny. I got the same requests last week. I had to choose one because those two just do not get along at all. The first guy is all is all 'Don't do this, don't do that' and the second guy is so much more fun.
A civil lawsuit seems a very fitting way to hold those people responsible.
Sort of, except that a lawsuit in those circumstances isn't likely to be good for the parents' mental health and ability to recover as best they can. I'd put it in the category of really bad things the law can't adequately address. But my version of that category is pretty large.
Sort of, except that a lawsuit in those circumstances isn't likely to be good for the parents' mental health and ability to recover as best they can.
Maybe, and I guess that comes down to each individual's unique healing process. Personally, I would find it very therapeutic to make those other parents explain themselves under oath. Whether or not I got a judgment wouldn't matter nearly as much to me as being able to make them look me in the eye and answer the questions I would inevitably have.
Getting a judgment that forced them to sell their house and move far, far away from me would also be very therapeutic.
Start at 21st and Guerrero in San Francisco. Look uphill. Look downhill. Walk three blocks down 21st.
551: I'm a lot less familiar with that area, so I'm not surprised that there are places that don't fit my general assessment; living in SOMA, Hunter's Point/Bayview, & Lower Haight meant that the transition into "being a really terrible place to live" really did seem more gradual (though Lower Haight's not really a good case, what with the divide at Fillmore between the projects & the "hair salon district"). I'm just interested in how this kind of class/race mapping happens; I suppose that the mere fact that SF is urban while the peninsula's suburban accounts for the (possibly only perceived [by me]) differences.
Re: 567, that really did not go well, but I don't think it's my fault. The situation was equivalent to being asked to come up with a syllabus on pornographic films for Oral Roberts U.
"The fourth text on here--our students really can't be asked to read that."
"But it's, like, the definitive text for the class you've asked me to teach."
"I know. But really, you obviously don't know our students."
"They're conservative?"
"No, they're traditional. They're open-minded, but don't respond to confrontation."
"Ah. So why do you want to offer this course?"
"Hrm."
That's too bad, AWB.
Never a good sign when you talk your prospective employer out of hiring anybody for the job you're applying for.
I'd put it in the category of really bad things the law can't adequately address.
I put pretty much everything that the law is asked to address in this category. A lawyer once offered an assessment of my chances of prevailing in a legal matter, including the personal costs to me in pursuing it, and I said, basically, "Look, once things get to this stage, everybody is a loser, automatically."
Which is true - though my lawyer bridled at my seeming dismissal of his profession. Certainly I'm glad I had the opportunity to avail myself of a lawyer's services.
606: Damn.
Sifu: they'll hire somebody, all right.
"Look, once things get to this stage, everybody is a loser, automatically."
Probably a pretty good assessment of the legal profession generally. BUT, the fact of the matter is that things do get to that stage not infrequently in every area of the law and it can be quite helpful in such situations to have a professional there to help minimize the extent to which you, personally, are the biggest loser. Lawyers cannot create a perfect world; the best we can hope for is to salvage something livable from the chaos.
(And I say this less in defense of any work I've done myself protecting the poor, weak insurance companies from the big bully injured people and more in recognition of the comfort I personally have in knowing my own lawyer has my back.)
610: I know someone who taught herself enough law to successfully represent herself against a harasser who was himself a jailhouse lawyer who knew a lot of tricks. It wasn't time-efficient but she enjoyed it.
606 - was this a school in the NYC area?
605: Right. Data point: Circa '97 or so, room to rent in a house. MP/PA border ~$400/m EPA one block away (across overpass on 101), $50/m.
The situation was equivalent to being asked to come up with a syllabus on pornographic films for Oral Roberts U.
If anyone could do it, AWB, you could.
pornographic films for Oral Roberts U.
Oral You.
610 seems sensible. Particularly in some areas (e.g. divorce) it seems to me that really, really often people enter into a legal process that will objectively be worse for everyone (excepting the lawyers, usually) but psychologically they can't just let it go and minimize damage.
His brother Anal's university probably would have hired you, but unfortunately ...... [complete this sentence]
595: The term is "Bronco Style".
"No, they're traditional. They're open-minded, but don't respond to confrontation."
Uggh, that sounds terrible.
It can't be a good sign when your interviewer starts talking to you exclusively in euphemisms.
604: Maybe, but my impression of how those things generally work out in practice is that the litigation ends up being mostly a way of prolonging the denial stage for several years and putting off dealing with the fact that your loved one is really, truly gone. And people who go into court seeking justice and redemption tend to come out disappointed when they realize that the best they're going to get is money and they're going to have to tolerate a bunch more hurtful stuff from the defense side to even get that much.
But everybody copes differently, and if a wrongful death suit really is what someone wants to do that's fine with me.
Incidentally [and commiserations on the interview] what was the book that triggered them off?
612: Yes.
607, 614, 619: Thanks!
621: The Monk. Admittedly, it's pretty sick stuff. Also, they objected to a passage from de Sade, but it's not a porny passage--just aesthetic theory that would be very useful. In the end, I'm not angry about it, but I feel like, when dealing with religious conservatives in an academic setting, I never know whether to overcompensate or undercompensate. As a teacher, I usually overcompensate in such a self-conscious way so that I can tease my kids into asking me for the more salacious stuff. And I can happily discuss that situation with other faculty members, as I did today. But this was an interview with college-wide admin people who were particularly wary about my ideology/pedagogy. The department folks loved the class I proposed.
I'm a little surprised that college-wide admin people knew The Monk.
pornographic films for Oral Roberts U
The Body and the Bud"
The Second Coming
Thy Neighbor's Ass
Couldn't you just select some of the nice, cheerful Gothic novels?
re: 622
Ah, I've not read that. I have read about it [and it was repeatedly mentioned in a recent TV adaptation of Jane Austen].
IIRC AWB's experience with Baptist youth groups would make her ideally suited to teaching porn at Oral Roberts.
pornographic films for Oral Roberts U
The Ten Cummandments
The Action of the Christ
Jesus Christ Pornostar
Sorry to hear it, White Bear.
Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Jimmyhat
DisRobe
The Best Temptation of Christ
Bend-Hur
Left in my Behind
The Last Penetration of Christ
Veggie Tails
Cleft Behind
628: Godspooge
Bend Her
Lie on the Witch in the Wardrobe
Cleft Behind made me laugh out loud.
For They Shall Be Comforted
The Empty Tumescence
In Accordance With the Strippers
She Laid Him in a Manger
Oh Come all Ye Faithful.
It Came upon a midnight clear.
Sorry, AWB. Usually when people say you're well out of it, it's a horribly unhelpful cliche, but in this case it sounds as if it might actually be true.
If they made you an offer after all, would you take it now?
It's a Wonderful Wife
The Testicles of Narnia
The Fantastic Four-Way
Actual Christian family film titles needing no alteration:
Love Note
Senior Year
Late One Night
Another Perfect Stranger
this stuff nearly writes itself, doesn't it?
Sorry to hear it didn't go well, AWB.
Land of Milfs and Honeys
Thy Rod and Thy Staff, They Comfort Me
Call to Whoreship
Is The Fantastic Four considered a conservative / evangelical movie in the first place?
Actual Christian family film titles needing no alteration:
The Passion of the Christ
The Greatest Orgy Ever Held
Also needing no alteration: The Agony and the Ecstasy
646: Not in the first place, no.
"Taking patriarchy seriously: Noah and his daughters".
That's more like a counseling book than a movie.
"The Father is the head of the family: learning from Noah."
You know, if you played your marketing cards right, I'm sure you could sell a series of `historical' porn-lite to evangelicals for `educational purposes'. Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.
651: You could do lots of mock-horrified stuff about the corruption of the Renaissance papacy, lingering long and lovingly over episodes like the Banquet of the Chestnuts.
Meat Me in St. Louis
The Long-Donged Christmas Donkey Nestor
The Nutcracker
Yes Vagina, There Is a Santa Claus
Sorry about your interview, AWB.
Actual books of the bible needing no alteration:
The Revelation of Christ to John
The Acts of the Apostles
Well, I have a career-related question, since I have such a screwy resume. I'm working on the vague, "I had some family difficulties and parental illness to deal with," which is true. I'm unsure on the how to explain my leaving WF, since I was fired. I could just say that it wasn't the right fit for me, and I didn't see myself going down that path, but I'm not sure that I'd be very convincing. How do people get jobs after they've been fired?
I could just say that it wasn't the right fit for me
"I really didn't enjoy the job" seems reasonable enough.
BG, there's a couple of routes you could take. Given your educational credentials, you could easily laugh off the WF stint as something you did just to pay the bills, and left as soon as you could. It's not unthinkable that your future employer would ignore it and not ask for a reference. You could even list it on your resume as "various retail jobs", as if to devalue it, though that could be risky if they start asking questions.
A non-defensive way to explain this is that because of parental illness you knew you would not be able to devote your full energies to your career, and you therefore deliberately chose to take menial jobs that would pay the bills and where you could focus your attentions on important family stuff.
Land of Milfs and Honeys made me giggle.
The "First Sons" trilogy:
Cain's Able
Abel's Cain
Caining Abel
613: $50/mo? That's completely insane. But then again, compared to what rent is like now, $400/mo for a room isn't so bad, either.
& "Abel's Cain" s/b "Abel's Cane," obviously.
667: I didn't actually go see that room, just the ad for it. I can imagine though. If you can maintain that sort of price differential in easy walking distance, you know something is going on with the neighborhood.
Joshua Fit the Butthole of Jericho
Samson in Delilah
Blow Job
The Garden of Get Some In Me
Thing of Things
The Sign of the Cocks
Needing no alteration:
The Godless Girl
Needing no alteration:
The Godless Girl
Needs no alliteration either.
Some of these, of course, could be combined, eg. The Godless Girl 2: Call to Whoreship.
Which circle of Hell is reserved for blasphemers?
Every comment is now under 6 words. Did ogged start charging by the word? Ogged, you bastard! I'll never pay! Never! Okay, here's my credit card...
Cum, They Told Me . . .
Parumpumpumpum!!!!1!!!
Walt that's ridiculous. Comments can be
In Fields They Lay
Good King Wence's Ass
The Chotch in the Wildwood
OK, here's the simple form: "Noah's Daughters".
How Great Thine Is
703: Perhaps "Crotch" or "Cootch" would be better.
637: Yes! Gladly, I'd still take it. Hopefully this is just AWBish self-loathing and paranoia, which usually sets in about ten minutes after the interview/exam, during which I felt quite happy with my performance. Some of my colleagues here have suggested turning the syllabus into a proposed class for the college where I'm teaching now, which could be fun if this doesn't work out.
These Christian porn titles are cracking me up.
Labia in the Vinyards
The Promised Glans
After 709, all further Christian porn titles are superfluous. Nevertheless...
Garden of Eatin'
Cum Thou Fount of Every Blessing
Dude, You're On To Me
708: I'm glad to read that, and comports more with my sense of how these things go, although I was willing to believe in the buyer's market for literature instructors that they might have been minded to eliminate you on syllabus faux pas alone.
My wife has had some odd interviews over the years.
Good luck, AWB.
686- I was going to say Doo doo right on me, but it's more of a fetish flick.
Hooray, I killed the thread with that one. Sorry for the imagery, above-mentioned 3-yr old comes home from school every day talking about poop and such.
3-yr old comes home from school every day talking about poop and such.
On a hotdog?
