Progress, evolution, call it what you like.
"I don't remember seeing any men with back hair before about 20 or 25 years ago.
An unusually chaste life? I suspect that a smaller percentage of men have back hair today than in the past.
Where is your mom seeing this, anyway? Not in any popular media that I know about. It seems that people get hairier as they get older, so maybe "Bingo Night" is looking different nowadays.
maybe "Bingo Night" is looking different nowadays.
If shirtless bingo is now standard, it certainly is different these days.
3: Maybe she watches a lot of comedies. The hair sweater seems to be a stable of slapstick these days. Does she quote lines from various Will Farrell projects at you, Becks?
Turns out that the people who claimed that masturbation causes hairy palms were only half right.
Clearly a sign of the coming ice age. We're genetically wired to feel the water stalling in the Atlantic.
8: Kotsko makes the claim that we masturbate more today than we did in the past. Personal experience is not data, Kotsko.
I, too, doubt that the actual incidence of back hair in the American population is higher now than it was 15 years ago.
I wonder if 5, in its way, has it right. Perhaps there is just more shirtless-ness now than in the past.
Hey, since when do you have a foodless blog, red?
Indeed, there is probably a bit less (modulo demographics) since some men seem to have taken up waxing.
I'm still wondering where the hell your mom is seeing this. What aren't you telling us, Becks?
Furthermore, we're in the top ten results for do jews like oral sex?
Did your mom grow up around a lot of hairless white guys, Becks? Maybe she's just seeing a broader swath of humanity.
13: For about a year and a half, but until recently I didn't link to it from anywhere. As you can see, I run hot and cold with posting anything there. Nice redding.
I'm not hairy! I'm actively-follicled!
Furthermore, we're in the top ten results for do jews like oral sex?
One vote for "yes".
It's all the Iranian immigrants.
back on the veldt ...
oh, sod it.
21. Lenny Bruce was emphatic to the contrary. This is perhaps a recent thing?
Lenny Bruce never got it from me.
16: I can't say, but Congregationalists, Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox seem to relish it. Ladies...
I'm with Gonerill. It's an age thing.
That said, I've never dated anyone with back hair. Not as a choice, just never ran across it.
Back in the seventies, at least, men used to have those hott little terrycloth lounging shirts to match their swim trunks.
Men, I really recommend that you pick up something along those lines. I think the young Sean Connery wore one in Goldfinger. Scrumptious.
I went out for a bit. I think she was talking about at the swimming pool. She also noted that, while my father is Italian and has dark hair and is otherwise a hairy dude, he doesn't have any back hair, in contrast to all of these other similarly-hairy men with back hair these days. She was perplexed as she thought you'd see less back hair these days, what with the waxing and increased grooming standards and such.
I'm just relaying the information. I don't know what dudes' backs looked like 25 years ago.
Also, I feel the need to link to this because I saw it in the SkyMall the other day and it made me chuckle. It does fulfill a need (and is much better than the skeevy guy I went to college with who would try to pick up girls by asking them to come back to his room and shave his back) but the mental image of the contortions that would ensue are pretty funny.
Hairy-backed men used to stay inside?
If hormones and other chemicals in our water supply and our consumer goods can cause massive epidemics of breast and prostate cancer, plus earlier and earlier menarche, maybe they can cause increased back hair in men.
Gotta be an age effect, she's hanging out with hair-sprouting old farts.
the skeevy guy I went to college with who would try to pick up girls by asking them to come back to his room and shave his back
Did this ever work?
Fuck, I thought ogged had posted this and I had soooooo many quips from which to choose.
MANGROOMER.
In grad school, I did have to wax a friend's back. But there wasn't much there; he was just prissy about it.
Was 36 as much fun as it sounds?
Wow - following on from the "Do Jews like Oral Sex" link, I came to a page by this skeevy rabbi advising his congregants to get to it with their wives that contains the most wonderful piece of Talmudic misogyny:
"R. Yochanan b. Dachabai said, 'People are born lame because their parents had sex in a nonmissionary position; dumb, because they kiss that place [the genitals]; deaf, because they converse during intercourse; blind, because they look at that place.'"
Shaddap with the 'darling' already! YOu want our child to be born deaf?
I think 33 is on to something.
Hormones and spillover antibiotics, at a guess.
36: Eh. Not as un-fun as getting dragged to the Leather Stallion afterwards. That was a bad summer.
Back-waxing is the new leg-shaving? Men, I feel for you.
I go for the age hypothesis, though. The pool I use at the physical therapy place (as a cheap substitute for an actual gym) is full of not just sagging flesh but hairy men. It's marvelous to encounter the panoply of humankind. Something like that.
39: That is pretty old school. Frazer tells us that in the old times magic could be worked through the marks of a man's tread, or through places where his shadow had passed, and that some magicians explain the need for bits of hair, fingernails or possessions, by saying that the world has been leeched of much of its magic by the wickedness of men.
some magicians explain the need for bits of hair, fingernails or possessions, by saying that the world has been leeched of much of its magic by the wickedness of men.
I don't understand the reasoning here. What does the wickedness of men have to do with therefore needing personal bits?
The magic isn't in the air any more, so you need to get the dehydrated concentrated magic available in personal bits. Just add holy water & spellcast!
There's more back hair today because there are more Iranians in this country. Becks, does your mother happen to go to Ogged's pool?
39: posts like that require direct links. You are banned.
I guess we could tell whether Jews like oral sex by counting the number of mute Jews we know.
36: I have waxed a back or two in my day, as well. These backs belonged to gay men, who were on their way to the clubs for the evening. I was usually tagging along, face elaborately made up by said gay men, supposedly in exchange for the back waxing, but really to up my fab quotient to make me better boy bait for them.
Oh dear. I just went through all the comments so far with the misreading that Becks' mother was talking about there being more men around with black hair nowadays. Re-reading the post makes the previous 51 comments make a lot more sense.
It's because the Muslim hordes are invading. Someone must do something about this.
Serious response: there are probably more men in their 40s and 50s at swimming pools now than there used to be.
I don't even know what philology is.
I assumed 56 was directed at Blume's close textual analysis.
I have persistent but countably few back hair(s). So, I pluck. It takes some gymnastics but I can reach them all—although (laydeez) when in longterm relationships the girls has helped with this task.
the girls has helped
That undifferentiated mass, eh wot?
What's the big deal with back hair? You don't have to look at it that much (I guess you would if you were into pegging, though) and it feels kind of nice. Hair is soft, you know.
George has small amounts of hair that sprout on his back in scattered little truffula patches, each no more than two inches by two inches. Most of his back is hairless.
What's the big deal with back hair?
One does wonder.
When my mom brought this up, she wasn't making a judgement on back hair, just noting the phenomenon. I've never dated someone with back hair, at least to the naked stage.
Aha! What your mom means is that she's seeing more naked mens, and she just ... never knew!
Comfort her in her newfound awareness, as the scales fall from her eyes.
The Great Awakening, by Becks's mom
To Have and To Hold, by Becks's mom
When will there be a post about nipple hair on women?
Hey, I've been waiting for the right moment to submit this to the Mineshaft, and this seems like as good a thread as I'm going to get. Here goes:
There's a young man who works at my firm, but on another floor, so I don't even know him to say "hi" to. However, I have occasion to walk by the cubicle he shares with three other people on a daily basis. He is, to all appearances, an utterly average white, 20-something office drone. But for this: on his wall he has an 8 1/2 by 11 inch promotional photo or magazine ad, with no writing except for the HBO logo in the lower right hand corner. The image is a close-up (from about mid-thigh) of a beefy white guy with dark hair, wearing black pants and a grey A-shirt. The guy is standing at a bathroom vanity, or perhaps at a hairdresser's counter, with a large mirror above it, 3/4 turned away from the camera. He's holding a black blowdryer, and curling his arm so that his bicep flexes.
So, two questions:
1. Does anyone know what HBO program or promotion this image might refer to?
2. Isn't that kind of a weird image for anyone, male or female, gay or straight or bi, old or young, to have up at their cubicle at work, especially without any other context?
Guessing it's a comic book thing.
3. Isn't that poster entrée enough?
I fail to see the back hair connection.
There isn't really a strict back-hair connection, although the man in the image is relatively swarthy. It's more a question of representations of the male body. And spectatorship.
So, wait. What are you asking, minnea?
The poster has personal meaning in some way, at a guess. I don't know cubicle culture, so have no idea how weird it is. Maybe he knows the guy; the promo quality of the picture speaks to this. If he shares this cubicle with other people, they may have asked at some point.
Maybe it's his brother! Maybe he designed the blow dryer!
I dunno, why can't he just put up a picture of his favorite sportsmen like all the other guys? Nothing weird about that. No siree.
This is why I'm guessing there's a new show based on a comic book coming out. The only arena in which guys who are trying to pass for straight get openly ogly about dude's bodies is when talking about comicbooky things. And the HBO logo in the corner means he's probably hoping someone will ask him, "So, is there a new show coming out on HBO?" and he can be all "ZOMG NEW ADAPTATION." I say ask him.
After all, there might be a really cool new comicbooky show coming out, which would be fun to know about.
If anyone wants to know how the annual parade down Hollywood Blvd on the Sunday after Thanksgiving is going, I have primo seating.
How's it going, WS? What is it a parade of?
So far I've seen Bob Barker, the girls of Deal Or No Deal, and two different high school marching bands. Did you know that high school students look younger and generally less sextastical than they are generally portrayed in film and television?
It is the Hollywood Santa Pararde. The mayor just passed by. "How do you like my grandson, Los Angeles?"
Yeah, I always forget how small and soft and hairless teens are. They're so misrepresented in the media.
Yeah, I always forget how small and soft and hairless teens are.
Easy to clean, and good for fricasseeing.
Don't forget funny-looking. It is an awkward time of life.
The "T-Squad" just passed me. A young boy shouted something boyish. "You like the T-Squad?" I said. He stared at me.
Marching bands have good posture.
Fred Willard just came by. He is a funny funny man and it's too bad he doesn't have a microphone.
You know, Eliot Ness and them guys.
I don't know, but the kid behind me seemed to. Someone Google it. This parade hasn't really drawn the A-list for a while.
The Marine band looked very clean.
Following the Marines was the "fueled by the fallen" car. A '63 Chevy nova in desert camo with the names of the Marines lost to Operation Iraqi Freedom.
After which, Rip Taylor.
"fueled by the fallen" sounds gruesome.
Later we'll be hearing from Efren Ramirez of Napoleon Dynamite, Casey Kasem, High School Musical, and gay thriller Dante's Cove.
What's the big deal with back hair?
I don't know man, but speaking as someone with back hair, every time I see a guy in the locker room with back hair, I think, "that's so gross, you ape." Because I'm a spoiled only child, I don't go on to think that my own back hair is gross, but let's not pretend that everyone else's isn't.
The Disney car just went by. The little kids behind me *loved* them some Mickey.
I'll confess. I had some hair on my back. I had it removed. It was free. I wouldnt have done it, but it was free so I figured there wouldnt be too many women who were bummed that I didnt have back hair.
Has I'm Not There been discussed here yet? Because that sure was terrible.
Hollywood High School has a stompin' rhythm section.
Destroyer, you're in new jersey, right? I've been meaning to recommend that you go get yourself some DeLorenzo's Pizza from Hudson Street in Trenton. Best in the world. Hamilton Street is good too.
I could take the train to Trenton, but I usually ride it the other way to New York.
"Best in the world." As a tourist destination, New York is somewhat preferable to Trenton. As a pizza destination, trenton holds its own aganst the Colossus.
destroyer, are you serious? It was trippy, yes, but I thought it was extremely good. Not very accessible if you don't know the basic arc of his career -- I would think that would make a lot of the scenes just incomphrensible and pointless.
Since we saw the photo here, I was interested in seeing Cate Blanchett. I thought she was the weakest, mostly because she looked just enough like Dylan to make me think she was, and then I'd get distracted by the incongruity of the voice (Australian, I think), walk/mannerisms (feminine), and hairdo (modern). The other five were so different that you never for a second thought they were Dylan, and could just relax.
but let's not pretend that everyone else's [back hair] isn't [gross]
Peh, I'll fight this 'til the cows come home. Whatever that phrase means.
As for the Dylan movie, I read a review in the DC City Paper that made little or no sense, and got the impression that either the reviewer was garbled or the movie was.
The Miniature Horses of Orange County are awesome. And speedy!
105: Wasn't my review, for the record.
Everyone was overacting, and every scene that involved a Dylan character talking to someone else (rather than just monologuing) was terribly written. The entire Richard Gere sequence was meaningless and tiresome. The invocations of 60s culture (our marriage was deeply related to the Vietnam war: montage!) were trite.
106: Don't you love mini-horses? I grew up near a mini-horse farm, and my dad still drives my mom past there when she's mad. Ain't no one can stay mad with miniature horses in sight.
fueled by the fallen
They continue even in death to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Semper Fi, brothers!
Were you in the District, parsimon?
Hm, I guess it didn't strike me as overacting because the whole thing seemed designed to be larger than life. I didn't see that anybody was scenery-chewing.
Also, I may have had lower expectations. It was less annoyingly self-conscious than I was afraid it would be.
109: nor Menudo, for similar reasons.
The kids behind me were really excited to see the stars of High School Musical.
Speaking of hair and Marines, last night a Marine told me he wanted a beard like mine. I told him thanks, but I needed him to shave—for my freedom. He laughed and then we talked about Marine grooming requirements. No idea what the policy on back hair is.
111: I was there for the day this past Wednesday, down there from Baltimore. I had to read something on the train back -- and no, of course it wasn't your review of the Dylan movie, I'd have noticed.
114:
He just wanted to blend in with the terrorists.
Listen apologists (I'm looking at you, LeBlanc and Parsimon): back hair is yuckky. Why? First, because our lack of it differentiates us from the animals. Second, and more importantly, it's because back hair tends to be both dark and sparsish, even on fairly hairy guys, so the effect is kind of like, ew, look, there's some random mangy-looking black hair there scattered around on dude's pale skin. Ick.
First, because our lack of it differentiates us from the animals.
Oh come on.
B can't help being northern europe-centric.
Hey, B., let's talk about leg hair next!
Or rather, everywhere where people tend not to have back hair-centric.
Everyone has leg hair. Back hair, everyone does not have. And for a very good reason.
I'm surprised at B's comment, because her back hair is pretty hot.
i don't have leg hair
what's wrong with me
I'm back and ready to troll shoulder-to-shoulder with you, bitchphd.
Just as women in underdeveloped nations have learned to subsist on leaves and dirt paste, they have accommodated themselves to their gross and hairy men.
Everyone has leg hair.
Are you absolutely sure about this? Do people with indigenous heritage (who IME often don't have facial hair) have leg hair?
Back hair is one of those deal-breakers that you unfortunately don't realize broke the deal until you're already naked and about to have sex. This, like gross hairy legs and armpits are to men (I imagine), is one of those things that just make you shudder at the sight touch (and really, avoiding embracing during sex makes it near-prostitution, as does trying not to look at the person) and have not-even-morning-after coyote ugly regret.
It is gross, and so get your backs waxed, gentlemen. If I have to obsessively shave my legs every time, you should remove your alpaca cape.
like gross hairy legs and armpits are to men
Uh-oh.
Do people with indigenous heritage (who IME often don't have facial hair) have leg hair?
I've been trying to figure out if I have an answer for this, but I don't think I do. Another comparison group would be East Asians.
I knit my back hairs into my girlfriend's armpit hairs each night for warmth. Haters.
Unshaven armpits can be hot, ladies.
I wonder whether hairfulness/hairlessness really correspond to ethnicities or if it's just random genetics.
I'm Southeast Asian and I have leg hair, which I duly shave for my boyfriend every frickin' time.
However, I have very little arm hair, and my sister and mother hardly have leg hair. My Japanese guy friend has no chest, back, or facial hair really, but I haven't paid attention to his legs. I suspect they are hairy, as most Asian guys' legs are.
Ben, when I was visiting your undergraduate college I met someone who was growing out her armpit hair, because her boyfriend "had seen it in a movie and thought it looked hot."
Outside of films: not so hot.
I have less direct experience of hairy-legged womans but imagine it, too, could easily be a matter of indifference or better.
I'm just defensive because I have incipient back hair immediately around the area directly beneath my neck.
Another comparison group would be East Asians.
Who are you including in this group? Because boy, was I taken by surprise when shopping at a Japense grocery store. I had no idea there were special razors for women's arm hair, for eyebrows, for every conceivable area on the body that might have an unwanted hair.
Destroyer, when I was attending my undergraduate institution there was a girl in one of my classes, whom I called (not to her face, of course) Beautiful Durkheim Girl after the subject of the class, who had unshaven armpits. I admit that my only contact with them was visual, and yet I also am forced—forced by the truth—also to say that, as Derek Bailey might put it, it did her no harm at all in my eyes that she had hairy pits, and in fact it probably enhanced her appeal.
She was really beautiful. Damn. She sure could set the bull-roarers to swinging, if you take my meaning.
135:
w-lfs-n, you are an aberration. Perhaps you are thinking of the feral, unkempt sexiness of unshaved armpits. I notice you didn't say that unshaved legs are sexy.
I don't get the hotness, although maybe that's because I have been socialized into thinking it's gross. And not just by you Westerners: (TMI) my mother and all of my Vietnamese female friends and siblings and I remove armpit hair painfully (by plucking), until it's way smoother than anything you could get by a razor.
I think you are remembering how hot Tang Wei is, and generalizing to the wider female population. This is a sampling error.
I have incipient back hair
It only gets worse, young Ben.
I think we've been over the leg/armpit hair on women thing. It's a totally socialized taste and plenty of guys think it's fine; it's not like there's a fact of the matter.
Also, I am also compelled to do some other things also.
I wonder whether hairfulness/hairlessness really correspond to ethnicities or if it's just random genetics.
I suspect there are general tendencies between ethnicities, but a lot of internal variation. If Asians tend to have leg hair, then Native Americans probably do as well.
138:
Ehhh, that's not so bad. One time I was with a guy who basically had a sweater and it tufted from the shoulder blades. It felt itchy and gross. I went through with it to my chagrin, but clicked "ignore" on his phone calls the next day and thereafter.
Ah, right. Tang Wei: also extremely hot, also unshaven as to the pits. A friend of mine in high school also didn't shave her pits also and also was quite attractive, also.
The source of the Derek Bailey reference, for the curious. I highly recommend that even the incurious listen. It's not his normal amelodic stuff; Loren Connors and Jim O'Rourke play kind of hazy stuff in the background while Derek talks about guitars and the name "George".
And now Belle Lettre has closed off my next troll avenue of arguing that guys find Asian women hot because they're naturally hairless. Way to go, BL.
Sometimes seeing something you didn't think you were attracted to as a feature on someone who blows your mind makes that other feature incredibly attractive in a way that can be applied to further lust-objects.
Who are you including in this group?
Roughly, everyone with ancestors from the area east of India and north of Australia.
Quo' Derek:
When my partner and I first got together ... I tried to persuade her to change her name to George. I said, "You got used ... to the name Karen, but why don't we use George, for a while. You'll like it."
She didn't want to know. And, when we were first making love, I would sometimes, in passion, cry out, "George!". It caused a certain amount of difficulty ... even when I changed it to Georgette ... she wasn't happy. So ... so dropped it. But now sometimes I think ... hmmm.
But we were talking about ... the guitar. My guitars are all called George. Yes. No problem for them, being called George. They don't give me any kind of ... argument ... at all.
147: I thought it was supposed to be the submissiveness. A willingness to painfully pluck hair to meet male standards could be rolled into that.
IME, members of the group described in 149 tend to be noticeably less hairy than Native Americans, but this might be due to greater social emphasis on depilation rather than any inherent physical difference.
remove armpit hair painfully (by plucking)
Ow, ow, owie, owie.
No problem, Ogged.
The sheer amount of hair removal products, devices, and tortuous methods passed down from mother to daughter (threading, sugaring, plucking, ow) in Asian stores (not to mention all the bleaching products!) should convince you all that Asian women are not naturally hairless, although we are indeed hot.
Yellow fever creeps me out. I once had a guy say that Asian women were appealing because of their "fragility." I wanted to bitchslap him. Another guy kept stalking Asian girls and saying "hi" in what he believed to be their "native language." Creepy transplants from the East Coast who encounter their first mass experience of hot Asian girls on the West Coast are trouble. Add the fact that this was law school and so they had yellow fever _and_ were assholes.
Armpit hair on women is totally hot. Partly this is because hair in places that are generally kept covered is a sexual signal (think pubic hair); partly it is because armpit hair, unlike back hair, is thick enough not to look mangy.
a lot of internal variation
This, for sure. Siblings can vary dramatically, per 136.
IME, members of the group described in 149 tend to be noticeably less hairy than Native Americans
But aren't Native Americans, in fact, members of the group described in 149?
tortuous
Torturous, unless you mean they're twisty.
And yes, many Indians and Asians (all my Filipino boyfriends, for instance) have very sparse hair below the knee. But sparse hair is not no hair.
I like Asian women because their assimilation issues are poignant.
That's ok, right?
I'm kidding. I don't like Asian women.
But aren't Native Americans, in fact, members of the group described in 149?
I was thinking of the area as being bounded by the Pacific as well.
You pedant. Yes I meant the latter. I also mean "and" whenever I type "adn." Glad you pick this stuff up.
We don't like you either, Ogged. We go for whiteys.
armpit hair, unlike back hair, is thick enough not to look mangy
Not all armpit hair is made equal. Some people have very sparse armpit hair, but I'd hardly call it mangy. Cough.
Damn you, w-lfs-n, for maknig me pwyn myself!
whiteys
The preferred term is "honkies."
We go for whiteys.
This is where 9/10 Iranians would proudly tell you that "Iran" and "Aryan" are related.
JM, don't stress about your armpit hair; these people are mere vessels forthe tastes of 21st century consumerist America. Only an Iranian can love you up properly.
I'd hardly call it mangy. Cough.
That sounds like kennel cough to me. You might want to have that and the sparse hair problem looked into by a vet.
We go for whiteys.
Woohoo! Suck it, Shi'a!
Armpit hair on women can indeed be hot. But nipple hair is unattractive. So is out-of-control pubic hair that sprawls all over the inner thighs and lower stomach. There, I have spoken.
Also, I hate it when women use the feminist I-cannot-be-submissive thing to avoid grooming they don't like. This is often in the very next sentence after asking me to shave twice a day because my facial hair scratches, or some such thing.
Was there ever a thread determining how groomed pubic hair should be on Unfogged, or would asking this cause you all to smack your foreheads?
Also, I hate it when women use the feminist I-cannot-be-submissive thing to avoid grooming they don't like.
Shaving does cause ingrown hairs, though. Painful!
I predict that Ben will attack the grammatic imprecision of the above in ten seconds.
This is where 9/10 Iranians would proudly tell you that "Iran" and "Aryan" are related.
She means real white, not technically white, Shi'a.
I keep calling myself a lurker and then succumbing to the temptation to comment lately--o the hypocrisy--but since I know my stomach would be churning if the genders would reversed I thought I would note that, while I don't know if there was more to the story than what was told, rejecting someone who's calling you after sex by ignoring them, and justifying that method of rejection to yourself because you didn't like something about his body, certainly sounds quite callous and rude. I just thought someone should say it, because when that kind of thing passes uncommented on it becomes normative.
In general, men have as much a right to have non-standard bodies as women do, and have no obligation to follow someone's rules for how they should look.
She means real white, not technically white, Shi'a.
Guess that means Jews are out too. It's probably for the best; we're pretty hairy.
Tia is reifying the patriarchy.
partly it is because armpit hair, unlike back hair, is thick enough not to look mangy
Unfortunately not always. In my 5+ not-shaving-anything years, I'd still shave my pits in the summer, because the only stuff I could grow there was wispy and gross looking.
rrromantic instrument, electric guitar..
that's what, though i could not listen to it till the end
really good old movies, but the disinterested please watch it with sound off
True that no one is obliged to follow others' rules. But as with any social rule, one should not be surprised if not conforming to the tastes of others leads to phone calls not getting returned, etc.
Also true BL was rude, but that kind of behavior is not uncommon in either sex.
I thought I would note that, while I don't know if there was more to the story than what was told, rejecting someone who's calling you after sex by ignoring them, and justifying that method of rejection to yourself because you didn't like something about his body, certainly sounds quite callous and rude. I just thought someone should say it, because when that kind of thing passes uncommented on it becomes normative.
Thanks, Tia. I was thinking about saying something like this, but then I figured everyone would just assume I was being defensive about my hairy back.
179: Post 9/11, Jews are whiter than Iranians.
177:
There was more to this story.
It's fortunately a non-issue now, because he stopped calling me after the one time he called the next day, sent one email when he went out of the country for a few months, and now I have a boyfriend. So actually, apart from the one phone call I rejected (but I called when ready to talk and left a friendly voicemail wishing him a good trip) and the email to which I also responded (saying glad you are having a good time in Spain, there was no contact to keep up, so I'm actually not sure who rejected whom.
Not that I would require anyone to conform to any physical standard to be with me, but if I don't want to be with someone I was with for one night, why am I obligated to? I responded friendly-like but with no lead-on promises for more, and are not women entitled to have one-night stands and keep them that way as much as men are?
one should not be surprised if not conforming to the tastes of others leads to phone calls not getting returned, etc.
Um, wait, what? People who can't get their act together to admit like a grown-up that they don't want to see someone else again are justified in being rude (borderline obnoxious)?
(Yes, I realize you didn't actually say they were justified.) Just -- sheesh. This is not the world I live in, nor want to.
(And thanks, Tia and Teo.)
Motherfucker.
Well, at least New England won't cover the spread. Moral victory!
188 crossed with 187, which is clearly not the type of scenario I was describing.
The story as first told sounded like "I slept with him but stopped returning his calls because he was hairy."
I figure if you're sexually attracted to someone, nearly anything ancillary can be incorporated into that attraction. If you're sexually attracted primarily to some idea of hairlessness, no hairy person is ever going to fit the bill for you. Some people are fetishy about their hair requirements. For me it's not a thing, but largely because of what I said in 148. You have really hot sex with a guy with a chest-pelt; chest hair becomes attractive. You also have really hot sex with a smooth-chested person; hairlessness is equally hot.
For those who are picky about hair, does it have something to do with the trends of your previous sex life, that everyone fit a certain pattern and so you don't associate sexiness with anything but that?
If I read 192 correctly, AWB is saying "sex can be hott", and I wholeheartedly agree. Body hair as a dealbreaker baffles me, but hey, you people are crazy.
This is not the world I live in, nor want to.
If you're single, you do live in this world, at least until you've established a base of trust and committment with an individual. It's sort of dog-eat-dog until then. Frankly, I don't think there's much difference emotionally between having someone call you up to tell you they aren't interested in seeing you again and having them simply stop returning your calls.
Some people are fetishy about their hair requirements. For me it's not a thing, but largely because of what I said in 148. You have really hot sex with a guy with a chest-pelt; chest hair becomes attractive. You also have really hot sex with a smooth-chested person; hairlessness is equally hot.
Totally pwned by Glaucon, that erotic man.
People have different dealbreakers. Back hair, height, weight, cup size, etc. Who cares? Nobody's owed. And I feel certain that someone's sleeping with those hairy-backed motherfuckers.
193: Sorry, I didn't argue that well. I guess I meant, like, say you don't think of yourself as someone who's into, uh, like a huge bush. But there you find yourself with the most exciting lady on earth, and she's got a huge bush. Afterwards, you just might develop a sort of thing for huge pubic hair, or at least be more open-minded in the future, thanks to the most exciting lady on earth.
Because I am not the most exciting lady on earth, I feel the need to keep all that under control. But man, if I was all super-gorgeous and awesome? I'd rock it. Big time.
Republic, 474d-475a:
"It was proper for another, Glaucon, to say what you're saying," I said. "But it's not proper for an erotic man to forget that all boys in the bloom of youth in one way or another put their sting in an erotic lover of boys and arouse him; all seem worthy of attention and delight. Or don't you people behave that way with the fair? You praise the boy with a snub nose by calling him 'cute'; the hook-nose of another you say is 'kingly'; and the boy between those two is 'well proportioned'; the dark look 'manly'; and the white are 'children of gods'. And as for the 'honey-colored', do you suppose their very name is the work of anyone other than a lover who renders sallowness endearing and easily puts up with it if it accompanies the bloom of youth? And, in a word, you people take advantage of every excuse and employ any expression so as to reject none of those who glow with the bloom of youth."
I don't agree with 192. I've had technically good sex, good performance with people who I didn't find physically attractive, and that didn't make them suddenly physically attractive to me. In my experience, physical preferences are set pretty early on, and they are hard to change. Falling in love (which is quite different than just "good sex") can make you attracted to features you wouldn't otherwise have liked, but only within a range.
Always seemed to me that women had greater flexibility in their physical tastes based on emotional attraction, but I might be influenced by stereotypes here.
Frankly, I don't think there's much difference emotionally between having someone call you up to tell you they aren't interested in seeing you again and having them simply stop returning your calls.
What? I think there's a huge difference between knowing definitively that it's over and never being sure.
198:
I actually always would give almost any guy a second date break, unless seriously creeped out or whatever. I always give a call or email to say thanks, but haven't always received one.
Dealbreakers are ones that might prohibit any longevity going forward: if I'm not attracted to long hair, back hair, or a guy's personality, I doubt I could keep dating him for long. If it's something I could get used to, a second date is in order. If not, I don't see the point in pretending, and so it's a relief to not have to get to the point where you tell someone you don't want to be with them and they ask why and you can't say anything. Better to stop the process early.
I say, conduct yourself with politeness, but don't feel obligated to change your own inclinations if you aren't likewise requiring them to change themselves. No one should have to compromise so much in the beginning. Attraction is what it is and comes in all forms, just like human bodies.
In 192 (and its predecessor, 148) AWB speaks the truth.
technically good sex
Now that certainly sounds like the apotheosis of hotness.
202:
Oh, you're sure, after a week or two of no contact.
It lacks closure, but then again I'm not sure people always want to know why they are not liked enough to be asked out again.
I really liked one guy I went out with this summer, but he never called, despite me telling him a few days after our first date that I wish he had kissed me. Oh well. So much for "let's do this again." All the end-of-date palliatives mean nothing sometimes.
Is anyone saying that we shouldn't have our preferences? (Of course, you can be called shallow for the preferences that you have, but there are worse things to be.)
It is gross, and so get your backs waxed, gentlemen.
No one should have to compromise so much in the beginning.
205: yeah, RFTS, I stuck that "technically" in there to connote the peculiar double quality of good sex with someone you're not that physically attracted to. It's hot in one sense, not that hot in another. One of the many odd pathways that promiscuity can lead you down.
207: I tend to think of all my own "preferences" as something more like "but this is all I know!" Obviously, I fall into certain patterns of attraction, which are weird and mysterious to me, but they feel provisional, as if, any day, I might start become violently attracted to entirely different groups of people. Who can tell?
But I'm young. Maybe the older crustier types among us will come out and say, "Oh, no, after 40 years of sexual maturity, I realize I'm still into the same C-cup size 6 redheads with leghair that I liked when I was a lad."
208:
If you want to date hair-sensitive women, which are potentially a large segment of the female population, especially in urban environments. If you don't, don't wax, and don't change yourself.
But if you don't change, neither will I, and I can't try to be attracted to something I'm not.
I hate it when women use the feminist I-cannot-be-submissive thing to avoid grooming they don't like. This is often in the very next sentence after asking me to shave twice a day because my facial hair scratches, or some such thing.
Must point out that "avoiding grooming one doesn't like" =/ "scratching someone else's face."
Also, I am sorry, but the right of men to have non-standard bodies is hardly a major social problem.
I can't try to be attracted to something I'm not
I'm mostly with you, BL, but I think some attractions are more changeable than people think. My guess is that the more precise disavowal is "it's not worthwhile for me to work on changing this thing that I am/am not attracted to."
Attraction is indeed pretty changable. All you have to do is pay attention. For instance, I have at least once in my life assured a gentleman that his back hair was a complete non-issue, and in his case, this was true.
212: Fine then, switch scratchy facial hair with any of the myriad other things that your partner asks you to do to please them. Like changing dressing styles, cooking and eating habits, etc. Most all of which I'm glad to do -- pleasing each other is a big part of what relationships are about.
213:
Yes, thanks for putting it more precisely.
My boyfriends were all free of back hair. I don't know whether it would be gross in bed, but dark wiry hair on pale skin always skeezes me out if it pokes out of the collar of a T-shirt. Downy hair or blond hair doesn't bother me. It's a good thing my mother's family immigrated from Sicily.
Obviously, I fall into certain patterns of attraction, which are weird and mysterious to me, but they feel provisional, as if, any day, I might start become violently attracted to entirely different groups of people. Who can tell?
Huh. My preferences are not fixed and eternal, but they seem to vary within some pretty constant limits.
218: Our mutual admiration of one another's back hair brought us together; alas, it was not strong enough to form a lasting bond.
210: "What do you look for in a woman now, granddad?" "Patience."
219: But you're married! So this is probably best.
Also, I am sorry, but the right of men to have non-standard bodies is hardly a major social problem.
I can't believe you didn't put the phrase "The poor dears!" in this thread somewhere.
I am intensely aggravated by this discussion in general.
Aw, Ned. I'm sure your fiancee adores every follicle of your back carpet.
We'll wax your back for you if you come to UnfoggeDCon, Ned.
I am somewhat aggravated by this discussion, but mostly because I was already upset about something else (discussed in another thread).
I'd describe most of my physical preferences as easily overridden. Ask me to describe my typical knight-in-shining-armor, and I can probably name a few things, but if I look at who I've actually dated or crushed on, there's not a whole lot of patterns beyond "broad shoulders."
219: mrh has, perhaps unintentionally, settled it for me. PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful is the marrying sort, and when he finds his perfectly trimmed madam, his eye shall no more rove. All you picky types, in fact, have a thing you're looking for, and may find it, and then you'll know you're done, and you can settle in. Eh?
But you're married! So this is probably best.
Obviously, my peerless and incredibly beautiful wife is the focal point around which my attractions orbit.
All you picky types, in fact, have a thing you're looking for, and may find it, and then you'll know you're done, and you can settle in. Eh?
You do too, you know. Just haven't found it yet.
230: Perhaps, but I'm the marrying sort and my preferences are much more like yours, so the correlation doesn't go both ways.
232: Right, everyone has a perfect soul mate out there. Keep on believing that.
I was about to say something like 233.
Scrabble inquiry: roommate is inquiring on the use of "polloi" (as in "hoi polloi"). I, being the one not currently playing and thus the arbiter, vetoed, but she cited the rules, which allow "words of foreign origin" (that is, not specifically "English words of foreign origin"). What sayest thou, Mineshaft?
236: No dice, roommate loses a turn.
236: It's not in the official dictionary.
Cala's 221 is so true. As is 217, come to think of it.
Also, on the peculiar doubleness of hot / not hot sex: the weirdest is very bad sex with someone really beautiful. Obviously not hot, yet also hot in a way that makes you realize you are a slave to desire.
I'm clearly working up the inspiration to write a Modern Love here.
the weirdest is very bad sex with someone really beautiful
I'm not quite willing to sign on to "weirdest," but I'll definitely cast a vote for "very weird" and also "very disappointing."
What a thing to say about your wife, mrh.
237-8: I concur. Some asshat just tried to pass off "lazer", too. Jesus.
243: Obviously the various scrabble players are all following the same non-rules, so you can recuse yourself.
You can arbitrate with this, Stanley.
Actually, the official Scrabble dictionary sucks ass.
Oh but last night did I destroy Susan and catherine in a game of Scrabble.
248: We normally use the shorter OED, but I'm not breaking that out for this amateur hour.
I gave all my back hair to kids with cancer.
That's a lie; they didn't have cancer.
Can someone explain the photo at the top of the link in 247? Did they recently change the recommended ages for Scrabble?
I played my first timed Scrabble game this week and it really unnerved me. I've been playing terrible Scrabble ever since.
B is right about the official Scrabble dictionary and about 232 ("Right, everyone has a perfect soul mate out there. Keep on believing that."). Harsh truths, but suck it up. Ben is right about 'lazer,' so basically this is one fucked game of Scrabble.
251: Fair enough. I'm a big fan of OED scrabble, but Mr. B. will insist on a rule that you can look things up *before* playing them, which means the game stretches out for hours as he flips through trying to find every possible word that contains all the 10-point letters.
Mr. B. will insist on a rule that you can look things up *before* playing them
WTF? Isn't that totally contrary to the spirit of the game?
256: My great grandma used to do that but under the guise of challenging people! She was slick.
257: He argues that it allows him a handicap, since he's a pretty crappy speller and otherwise I would beat the crap out of him.
Stanley, I want to adopt your family.
We tend to use the permission system, not the challenge. We also adjust for alcohol consumed; after so many beers, all that matters is that a simple majority of judges agrees that XLMOP is a sensical contribution.
Not a medium-sized or even a large mop, but an XLMOP?
Stanley, I want to adopt your family.
Do we have to shave our backs, or will you take the family as-is?
258: You've played Scrabble with your great-grandmother? Either 253 is right or you've got some damn short generations there.
256: there is no other word for that but CHEATING. CHEATING!
Perfect soulmates is such obvious hogwash that once you have some experience you can hardly believe anyone gives it creedence at all. But relationships themselves are so particular and provisional that it might be true there's a possible one for every person. I know a couple who have been married for 26 years and lived in the same city for a total of about 6 months, despite every opportunity.
263: You definitely fall into the "has no flaws, by definition" category, Stan.
241: Yeah, I wouldn't even call that "weird". Just because it involves a bit of cognitive dissonance doesn't mean it should be bewildering.
You've played Scrabble with your great-grandmother?
Ayup. She had my grandmother at sixteen. My grandma had my mom at sixteen. Great grandma passed away when I was in high school. Grandma is rather young and quite spry. Last time Grandma and I played Scrabble, she said "Fuck!" when I beat her.
67: Actually, I'm rather surprised when someone extremely beautiful is good in bed. It's neat, like they did a cool trick or something.
259: He gets extra blank tiles then.
267: Cognitive dissonance is my operational definition of weirdness. But I'm basically a pretty cognitive person.
268: Whoa. All my great-grandparents died long before I was born.
Yeah, but cognitive dissonance occurs a lot. You think someone's standing to your left but then you hear their voice coming from your right. OMG! But not exactly memorably weird.
You definitely fall into the "has no flaws, by definition" category, Stan.
Aw, shucks.
He gets extra blank tiles then.
Great grandma also liked to turn over letter tiles and make them into blank tiles. "Wait a minute. There are nine blank tiles on the board?!"
My grandmother used to turn over tiles to make blanks. It was pretty funny when she got away with it at first and then someone discovered that, wait a second, there's another blank!
shivbunny is fucking evil at Scrabble. He makes the damned board look like a crossword puzzle.
None of my great-grandparents would even have shared a common language with me.
That'll teach me to preview. Back on the veldt, people previewed so they could club people who would pwn them word for word.
I am an evil bastard, at Scrabble and pwning.
Back on the veldt, people who knew the word "veldt" did better at Scrabble by a small but reproductively significant margin.
273: It can't be dissonances that are resolvable quickly once a simple error is realized. I groove on the kind of pseudo-profound cognitive dissonance that goes to fundamental life conflicts and provides an excuse for bad poetry. Physical beauty is rich, compelling, and attractive...yet mysteriously empty! Both completely true at the same time!
All my great-grandparents died long before I was born.
I think the last one of mine died 10 years before I was born. I was born in 1982 and my one great-grandmother was born in 1876.
My mom was the age of the grandmother of one of my friends from the church youth group. But she was 33 when I was born, not exactly Elizabeth Edwards.
My tribe is quite fertile and active. I pity all of you.
Physical beauty is rich
Expensive, yes, but rich? I'm like eh on it. It's sort of a novelty, sometimes, but rarely important.
The entire history of Western figurative art makes no sense if 283 is true.
On the other hand, AWB is a literary intellectual and not an art historian.
284: Fine, but we were all born in the 20th century, an era of near-complete aesthetic dissociation of value from harmonious loveliness, except in kitsch. Most of us have more interesting taste in music and art than the superficially lovely; why not more interesting taste in people as well?
I prefer my people assonant and brick-wall limited.
My tribe is quite fertile and active. I pity all of you. And hairy. Oh, the humanity!
Most of us have more interesting taste in music and art than the superficially lovely; why not more interesting taste in people as well?
If I actually know somebody and think she's beautiful, it's not just because of the way her face looks in photographs, it's more like a total sensory experience of beauty, containing her facial expressions, body, walk, body language, etc. I wouldn't call it superficial. So I think there would be some cognitive dissonance when the few aspects of her that are hidden from view turn out to not fit in with the rest of the picture.
I only care about how she comments? Is that superficial? Very well, then I am superficial.
There is one question mark too many in 289.
Okay, clearly I was raised on snakes and spiderwebs, but all the stories I grew up with were usually about beauty and grace hiding at best emptiness, and at worst malice. So while I can be open-minded about the possibility of a gorgeous person harboring a heart of gold, I certainly don't expect more of the good-looking, and especially not in bed.
There is one question mark too many in 289?
285: I'm afraid I'm one of the boring people who clog up your world, AWB, full of stereotypical tastes. Like most people, I would benefit if the rigid and undemocratic standards of physical beauty had less influence than they do, but I have to admit they influence me.
But actually I would argue that the 20th and 21st centuries have been just as worshipful of "harmonious loveliness" as any previous period -- but you need to look to fashion, television, movies, and other popular arts. True that there has been a weird split with the avant-garde that was not present in other periods, but that is perhaps because the avant-garde has become more intellectual / conceptual and less sensual.
My last great grandparent died the year I was born. My daughter, though, played Scrabble with her great grandmother. We play hardass rules around here: you have to be able to say what the word means, especially those fakey two letter words.
As noted earlier, I liked the Dylan movie, but don't think hardly anyone under about 50 ought to be going to see it. I liked Cate Blanchette the best I think, and while I didn't think the Gere segments ultimately worked, evocation of the Peckinpah movie, and of Rolling Thunder, was an interesting experiment.
289-90: "Show me your comments!" is what he meant.
291: sometimes the ugliest people have the shiniest genitals.
I only care about how she comments[.] Is that superficial? Very well, then I am superficial.
This was the theme of a post which, since it consisted entirely of a cartoon from the New Yorker, I can no longer locate.
296: It's not an accident that Emilio Estévez didn't take on the Sheen family name.
all the stories I grew up with were usually about beauty and grace hiding at best emptiness, and at worst malice.
Cinderella is still beautiful, even if badly dressed, and the witch still has a wart. Glinda is blonde and lovely, and the Wicked Witch is, well, green.
There are of course stories that emphasize the external/internal beauty split, but I don't think that's particularly 20th century...it goes back at least to Christianity and its suspicion of pagan values.
I only care about how she comments
This is why I can't believe people like Sifu and Apo don't have women *lined up around the block*. Such perfect comments, pithily pwning all around them.
Of course, all this means is that, with the beautiful, I employ the soft bigotry of low expectations in bed. Oh look at you! With your little maneuver there!
291: YMMV? I've known lovely people who turned out to be quite lovely.
AWB and PerfectlyGoddamnDelightful might as well be having a conversation about George Condo. I can't speak to all genres but I think there is still a great deal of "sensuality" to be found in visual art, even when beauty is the subject (and is the subject of scrutiny).
Shorter Armsmasher: "Just because I'm DC's Hottest Media Type doesn't mean I'm bad in bed, people".
I would fuck some visual art in the ass, without paying, even.
299: Yeah, as I implied, there wasn't a lot of Cinderella or Wizard of Oz at the Bear residence.
301: I'm of course speaking of contemporary art from the privileged position of one who does not know what he is talking about. But we represent the majority!
Helmut Newton seems to be getting some artistic respect lately. He had a pagan fascination with beauty.
P.S. you all have my permission to refer to me as "PGD" for ease of typing.
I would fuck some visual art in the ass, without paying, even.
I would let non-visual art give me aural.
all the stories I grew up with were usually about beauty and grace hiding at best emptiness, and at worst malice.
You're right, although that concept shows up a lot less than the princess who is beautiful and is sweet and kind too.
But I think that would apply to beautiful people whose beauty is accepted by the conventional wisdom, or people who everyone agrees are beautiful. It would be a different issue if Person A honestly and independently finds Person B to be beautiful, and therefore feels like the logical thing to do is to assume that Person B must be unbeautiful underneath. That's the only way you could get to a point where you actually expect somebody's physical appeal to be negatively correlated with their actual goodness.
303: Near Lucca, Italy, I met an artisani who showed me a piece that Jeff Koons had commissioned but neither picked up nor paid for: a marple sculpture showing the artist anally penetrating his (now former) wife. Along the lines of this work. The artisani said he was really sore about it for a long time because he'd gone to lengths to make it lifelike.
a point where you actually expect somebody's physical appeal to be negatively correlated with their actual goodness.
No sillier than expecting it to be positively correlated with actual goodness. I'm not saying I expect greater evil from beautiful people, but why expect greater good?
Thank you, 'smasher, for reminding me just how much I hate Koons and his work.
308: lube ameliorates soreness.
309: It's way sillier, AWB. Greater arousal should lead you to expect you're going to have greater sex, not worse. Why shouldn't being very aroused by someone's appearance lead you to think, even if mistakenly, that you're going to have some hott sex? If you haven't had sex with someone you're in a bit of an all-things-being-equal situation, anyway—the thing you can dependably predict going in is how amped you'll be about teh sex, and that affects both your expectations and your perception. Maybe I'm just shallow, but I don't see how being pretty ought to be a sexual strike against a person.
309: I don't think it's a cognitive thing, it's more that we instinctively want it to be so. The unity of the good, the true, and the beautiful, that kind of thing.
Beauty is a symbol of the good, you sublime terror of the Arctic.
313: Ah, the Romantic thing. I've never really understood the Romantics at all.
312: I get aroused by other things. It's not just loveliness that turns everyone on.
Listen, I will happily sleep with good-looking people. I don't turn them down out of spite. And I am open-minded about their potential qualities! It's just not like a thing for me. I've had very good and very meh sex with extremely hot people, and I didn't find the latter was a source of cognitive dissonance for me, is all I'm saying.
Ben, you're letting us down. This is a situation tailor-made for Plato quotes. The Phaedrus or some such. The soul needs lubrication for its wings!
And don't worry Armsmasher, we don't hate you because you're beautiful.
I've never read the Phaedrus, and if you think I'm letting you down, it's obviously because you either don't recognize the Kant allusion or you have a mistaken opinion of its value.
No need to get huffy, I have the greatest respect for your philosophical skillz. I've read the Critique of Judgement. Just saying that Plato is a better hand with the elaborate metaphors and elevated rhetoric.
OK, I'm off to get my beauty rest. Be well, all!
Phaedrus 250d-e