Thanks for raising the bar, dude. Now anything I do is going to seem tame in comparison.
So great. When are you going to tell her you love her?
Jesus is premature! Tell her you ♥ her first.
When are you going to tell her you love her?
Probably already did.
I so hope this works out. Sincerely. If it doesn't, it would be kind of funny if she kicked your ass in a bar fight.
Fuck.
That seems a little premature; she hasn't even called back yet.
Such balls! Amazing. I never knew you had it in you.
So how many messages have you left her now?
Better email her just to make sure she got the voice message.
Post the number. I'll call her and tell her that you are relatively safe.
Wait, you have her address? Why are you bothering with answering machines when you could just show up at her house?
Ogged, if only you were a reality TV show. Man, I'd get cable--or whatever fancy TV thing you kids have nowadays...Wait, are you like that LonelyGirl thing? Or some kind of WackyRelationshipAttempt bot?
machine. Don't tell me there's some good way to tell someone's machine that you're a stalker
Do you want a "not" in there?
Why are you bothering with answering machines when you could just show up at her house?
This honestly hadn't occurred to me but my friend, more stalkerish than me, more subtle than you, suggested that I "accidentally" run into her near her place. (He was kidding.)
"Don't tell me there's not some good way," perhaps.
Surely by now you've called her machine to leave a further message apologizing for the initial message.
(He was kidding.)
As was I, mostly, but cf. comment 1.
"Don't not tell me there's some not good not way."
The point of the "don't tell me line" is that nothing I said could erase the impression, left by the immutable facts of the situation, that I was a stalker.
Hell, if you have her address go ahead and send flowers! Or better yet, plants! They live longer than a week, a symbol of your undying love.
Ah! Now that the joke is explained, it is funny.
nothing I said could erase the impression ... that I was a stalker
You mean, you am a stalker.
If you are uncomfortable posting her number, you can email it to me.
Trust me. I'm a lawyer. I'll look out for you.
26: "Hey, you know that creepy stalker guy who left a message on your machine? I'm his pretend internet friend, a divorce lawyer."
PG, I should have sought a woman's advice.
I called last night, but didn't have the nerve to deal with the machine that answered.
But you only called once, right? Because what if she has caller ID?
Or better yet, plants! They live longer than a week, a symbol of your undying love.
Pshaw. Plants eventually die. Send her coal.
Why stop at coal? Go right to diamonds!
I should write a book. 101 Tips for the Thrifty Stalker.
Just once, IA. But do surfer chicks have caller ID? No! They live in ramshackle huts on the beach, which they clamber out of to go surfing, while I loll about and make a breakfast of healthy grains and doorstep seaweed!
28: I'm not sure how letting her know you know where she lives is better than letting her know you know how to call her is any sexier, no matter how floral the medium.
They live in ramshackle huts on the beach, which they clamber out of to go surfing, while I loll about and make a breakfast of healthy grains and doorstep seaweed!
And do they have phones in these huts? I suspect not.
27:
Exactly.
Sadly, this thread is going to end with a thud. She will not call back. Ogged will not ratchet it up for our amusement by calling her again. Boring.
Ogged is even now doodling "Mrs. Old Chick Surfer" on his spiral notebook.
She's the one with the leathery face of an experienced woman? The aged surfer girl?
She has charming wind-blown crows'-feet, John.
Wouldn't the style be to write "Mr. etc.," slol?
The aged surfer girl?
Jeez people. She is 45ish. That hardly counts as old.
37: No, what's going to happen is that surfer girl's surfer guy/P.I. friends are going to find ogged, and beat him up. And then ogged will pretend she didn't call him back, which will be technically true. So if nothing comes of this, assume that.
Ogged is even now doodling "Mrs. Old Chick Surfer" on his spiral notebook.
And poring over surfinglessons.com or some such between comments.
Wouldn't the style be to write "Mr. etc.," slol?
Yeah, but we're all about transgressing the norm, aren't we?
No, no, Slol is imagining that you are imagining what she'd doodle after you married but, in a surprising move, took her name.
Is she the original fabled "Surfer Girl" of the Beach Boys? Ask for her for her autograph!
You also should get her name tattooed on your arm. That totally impresses surfer chicks.
What makes this so great is picturing ogged running over and over in his mind the one moment during his message where his voice cracked ever-so-slightly, betraying his deep, soul-destroying desperation. He hopes she didn't catch it, but knows deep down that she did and will never call.
You people should be encouraging Ogged to do these kinds of things more often. What kind of pretend friends are you?!?!
Bring her to DCon, Ogged, Let me stick my fingers in the crow's feet. Only then will I believe.
OT: I am about to order a Manhattan with rye and Peychaud's bitters, Blume is getting something called a "Mary Pickford", our other drinking companion is enjoying a rye and Moxie, and none of us can remember what the deal with Plymouth gin is. 1. this bar rules, and 2. where's w-lfs-n when you need him?
She has already moved to Sweden, where they don't have phones. She won't call.
You're only trying to make the Iranian lawyer jealous, I know, but you could do this much more easily just by talking in the elevator, either to yourself or others, about the surfer girl you're dating. Actually dating her is a step or two beyond what's needed.
Let's all watch along at home as it unfolds!
57: Since when did you schedule a Boston meetup at the exact time I was skipping class? Bastard.
Hey, that's really something. Hope she calls back.
60 almost has it, but the stalker message is ogged's last attempt at avoiding hitting on the hot iranian lawyer. What we have here is classic example of a fear of a totally iranian planet.
Blessed are they who have not seen, yet laugh their asses off.
I had sort of convinced myself that surfer girl and Iranian lawyer woman were one and the same.
61: Thanks, perfect! I was trying to remember what movie that was from. Although I find it hard to watch all the way through.
63: Wait...light dawns over Marblehead.
Right, right. "Our other drinking companion."
Okay, I was kidding. It's just me, and I've been ordering four cocktails at a time.
You've got BG with you too? Damn, you're putting ogged's potential mack into practice.
I don't think that this is quite as stalkerish, but maybe still somewhat stalkery. Last week while home for thanksgiving i met a girl at b/ord/ers (in the philosophy section, of course) and we proceeded to talk for several hours just walking around the store talking about philosophy and poetry (she's a poet!) How ridiculously pretentious does this sound? Anyways she happened to mention that she works at a s/tarb/ucks and either i asked which one or she said. so we exchange emails, whatever. So I'm in the area of the s/tarb/ucks two days later (and by area I mean it only consisted in walking six blocks out of my way) and I think, well what the hell, why not check it out? so i do make it there, but by that time i have totally lost my nerve (which wasn't exactly strong to begin with). this does not stop me from peeking in the windows (I'm fairly certain she wasn't there), but it does stop me from actually going inside.
So, was this stalkery? Would it have been more or less stalkery had I gone inside? What if I had gone inside and she wasn't there? What if I was inside and then she walked in? The world needs to know!
That doesn't sound particularly stalkery, np. And you really don't have to googleproof the names of national chains if you don't even mention where this took place.
Rye and Moxie? Why doesn't this person just ask to be hit over the head with a chair?
NP, if you talk to someone for several hours, and they tell you where you work, and it's a public place, it's not remotely stalkerish to drop by. Unless you're planning to tie her up and put her in the trunk of your car. That's still over the line just yet.
So did blume and tweety hook up? Have I missed an announcement?
Pure psycho. Try not to kill, cook, and eat someone at UnfoggeDCon, ogged.
Let's not be too hasty. Maybe he'll share some of the meat with the rest of us.
Moxie tastes great. So does Rye. I imagine it is a great combination. (Then again, I am from NE.)
What does tonight's Celtics/Cavs game mean for the Eastern conference race this year?
78: Nevermind that, who's heard from BostonianGirl?
I've talked to her semi-recently, I think. Or maybe I've lost track of time. I can't remember.
So, was this stalkery?
Yes
Would it have been more or less stalkery had I gone inside?
Less
What if I had gone inside and she wasn't there?
No difference.
What if I was inside and then she walked in?
Nauseatingly serendipitous.
84: I'd feel better if you could. If you talk to her could you ask her to shoot me an email (address enclosed in my handle)?
77a: Apparently there is some disagreement with 85.
77b: good to know
85: So what is it about going inside that is less stalkery? Surely it's actually less creepy/dangerous for the girl if she doesn't even know I'm there. (until of course I tie her up etc)
If you're peeking in the windows, she can probably see you, and at that point not going in is creepier than going in, because it leads her to wonder what the hell you were doing.
That said, I don't think any of your behavior so far has been unacceptably creepy, but I'm not exactly known for my good judgment in this area.
and presumably the answer is stalking her rather than just checking out the seasonal decorations.
and presumably the answer is stalking her rather than just checking out the seasonal decorations.
Pretty much, yeah. Assuming she's there and recognizes you.
well in retrospect i'm glad she wasn't there (or if she was she hasn't mentioned it) as we have continued to communicate minus any creepy stalker vibe. Though you never know what kind of spice that could at...
85 is foolish. Worrying about whether this is stalkery is way overthinking things. Go buy a cup of coffee, and ask when she gets off.
You people.
It doesn't seem stalkery at all if she gave out the information and also an email.
I will never understand the modern world.
Teo is correct, the difference is hanging out outside, trying to be surreptitious. If you can talk for four hours, you're presumed to be familiar enough to walk in and say hi.
i don't think that i have ever been accused of under thinking something. But, fair enough. I hope that my instincts would have stopped me sooner if i had really thought it was creepy, but there is nothing like the possibility of teh sex to screw with one's instincts
there is nothing like the possibility of teh sex to screw with one's instincts
So true.
I intensely dislike meeting people I know in public and even I don't think that showing up at a Starbucks when she told you the location is stalkerish. If she really didn't want you to know, she'd've told you she worked for Bunbury Almalgamated, which is where I tell people I work if I don't want them to know anything about me.
Sadly, no one has ever called me out about the name of my employer. Or on my 'church home', a necessity here in the South. I tell people I go to Landover Baptist.
ogged, that is a charming tale. If she does call, you should make a point of telling her you were thinking about dating a lawyer who works in your building, but your internet friends talked you out of it. That will let her know you are a hot commodity on the scene.
Surely, this all culminates when Surfer Rosa sends out a mayday, and ogged enlists the skills of Emerson and BitchPhD. They head out on a nautical rescue mission that ends in disaster.
At the denouement, ogged says, dejectedly, "Pack up the sloop, John, B. This is the worst trip I've ever been on."
93: I was just answering the man's questions. No man in his right mind can talk to a girl for four hours and not have the the thought of asking her for coffee cross his mind. The matter was a question of venue.
,At the denouement, ogged says, dejectedly, "Pack up the sloop, John, B. This is the worst trip I've ever been on."
A true shaggy ogg story.
hm.what kind of response is this?!
fine, it's questionable also who'd run away first in 4D, me or someone else
and i was trying to be a reasonable benign non-creepy kind of
R
Although "drinking all night / got into a fight" sounds about right for the outcome of a trip like that.
98: Bunbury Almalgamated is awesome
AWWWW!!!
Though it's sucky that it was a machine. Dammit.
106: She's probably still on vacation. [/ogged's internal monologue]
The stalkery thing, if any, was not going in.
Goes back to the things I've said several times about how habitually gregarious, sociable people never have to ask themselves if they're hitting on someone. They can hit on someone by accident. But people who think too much worry about everything.
So she was on her way to this thing, right? So no anticipated followup for a while?
Right, Stanley, but he'll need a guitar player. (That's a flac file).
So she was on her way to this thing, right? So no anticipated followup for a while?
No, the thing is next month; she was just headed home for a few days for the holidays, so she should be calling me *any minute*.
so she should be calling me *any minute*.
Well just patch us all in on Skype then.
113: I'm sure he'll post a transcript.
111: Thanks for the link, Nápi. I've been kind of obsessively listening to that song lately.
Maybe he'll liveblog it!
It could be like in the WonderPets. Ogged is Linny. [Sings] "The phone, the phone is ringing ..."
108: Thanks. I guess this means I can leave the creepy stalker thing to ogged.
Re. the Starbucks girl, in real life no, it's not stalkery to go out of your way to the Starbucks where she *practically invited you to come see her*. In pretend internet life, where we give everyone shit, it's totally stalkery.
Peeking in the windows but not going in is silly and if you were really being stalkery, would be much more stalkery than going inside, *not* because she might see you and think what's going on, but because you're deliberately trying to see her without her knowing. Whether she realizes that's what you're doing or not is not the issue, from the "is it stalkery" point of view (though it might be from the "will she freak out" point of view). Just for the record. That said, no, obviously your peeking wasn't actually stalkery, it was just dorky.
Of course, if you keep doing that kind of shit, it becomes stalkery. So next time you stop by go in and ask for her. Duh.
120 is correct, of course. Asking for her though? That would take balls, like, half the size of ogged's. Easier to get coffee there all the damn time. Eventually you'll run into her, and then you can ask her out.
120: When I need clarity w/r/t/ relationships I think I know who to go to now...
121: I am not brave. Sad, but true
74: Stay the fuck away from people who tell you they're poets. I'm not even kidding you.
Unfortunately, there's really two and only two ways surfer chick can react: she'll think you're creepy and not call, or she'll think you're weirdly charming and will. And my experience tells me there's about even chance of either happening (depending, of course, on how well she thought of you in your initial meeting). It sucks, but such is love.
And ninjaphilosopher, two hours? You absolutely must ask for a phone number with that good of a connection. Email says "I want to talk about philosophy and poetry again sometime". Phone number says "I want to talk about philosophy and poetry again sometime, and make out!
Oh sweet jeebus. Nothing ninja did is anywhere in the realm of stalkerish. Unless he had his penis out when he was peering in. In which case: maybe.
124: Oh I don't know, I thought it was sweet and endearing. And I have a fairly good bs meter (it's all that french philosophy) that definitely did not go off.
I don't think it's remotely stalkery, but I'm guessing I don't have credibility here. And DS is totally right about poets, but you're young, and I think this is one that it might be ok to learn from experience.
Rye/Peychaud's Manhattan was awesome.
Part of the relationship-free life involves using telephones as little as possible.
129: Oh, so you're done already? Cad.
NP and Ogged win. If a woman gives you enough information about herself that you could find her, she's being forward in a way, too, possibly hoping you'll do something that will show you have guts and are interested. Guts-having is an extremely attractive quality.
In fairness, she didn't actually give me the info, AWB.
Re. bravery, here's the thing: the woman told you her name and where she works. She took the first step, which was to issue an invitation. Your job, if you are interested (and you are) is to accept the invitation like a gentleman.
This doesn't mean passively hanging around day after day hoping she'll come in to work. It means going in, ordering a coffee, and asking the person on the counter, "is so-and-so here?" They will either say no or they will say yes. If no, don't ask when she's scheduled to work--they shouldn't tell you, anyway. Just say, "well tell her so-and-so from the book store said hi."
That's the forthright, non-stalkery thing to do. You're letting her know that you were there, which gives her information. Having information helps people feel safe. *Not* having information makes people feel either insecure (omg, did he ever stop by?) or scared (what? some guy's been asking for me but he didn't give his name?).
Now again, in real life? People do the lame hang-out-at-Starbucks 'til she's scheduled to work thing all the time. But think about it: her coworkers will notice if you become a regular, and then if/when she shows up and recognizes you, they'll tell her you've been hanging out. Probably she'll be flattered, since this is real life, but potentially that's a little creepy, yes. Or maybe she'll show up and see you but not know if you see her, etc., and awkward mutual pretending-to-ignore each other will ensue, which will make both of you insecure (again with the lack of information: "omg, does s/he not remember me?"). And in any case, once she's there, you'll have to say something. Surely it's easier to say to someone you're *not* interested in, "is so and so here?" than it is to say to someone you are, "yeah, I've been stopping by every day for two weeks."
Do the right thing. Next time you stop by, go in and ask for her. This is the reason Ogged left a message on the woman's machine on the second call rather than just continually calling until she picked up. One drive by/hang up is okay, if it's followed by a message--it seems cutely nervous. Multiple drive bys/hang ups starts to actually be a little weird.
125b: Damn it. I suspected that. Oh well, maybe this situation is still salvageable.
128: It's good to know I'm young
134: Oh, but that's just it. She let you see it. I dunno. Calling her is sorta stalkery, but kinda hot. Most kinda hot things are a little creepy.
137 is one of the strangest things I've seen on this blog.
127: Hey, if you really must, I'd suggest following B's advice in 135. It's your funeral interminable purgatory of a poetry reading...
Oh, and I disagree about "ask for her phone number." She told you where to get in touch with her IN PUBLIC for a reason. It's up to you to follow up on that invitation in an equally open (public) manner. Once you've done that, then you give her *your* phone number.
This, btw, is the first rule of gentlemanly hitting-on-women; always give out your number, rather than asking for theirs. It is not cool to ask someone else to give you private information; it is reassuring to offer yours.
140: Hopefully I will at least get to suffer in verse
(But I suspect 141.2 is completely wrong. I'd be curious to know how many of the male Unfoggedtariat have ever gotten a date by giving a phone number instead of asking for one.)
always give out your number, rather than asking for theirs
Also excellent advice, and I wish there were an easy way of giving someone an email address without having to look for a pen or paper, or some shit. This is more complicated on a plane when you can't turn on your phone and just punch someone in. These are times when it would be nice to be joe@yahoo.com.
I'm with DS. I'd much rather give my number than take someone else's.
143: Well, again, there's the real life thing. That said? I *always* gave out fake numbers when people asked. At least, if you want a real number, you should offer yours first; if she's interested, probably she'll offer hers in exchange.
Business card? Or is that too impersonal? Maybe you should print up dating cards.
Or is that too impersonal?
I thought it would be, plus the spam filter at work is a killer, and uncertainty sucks.
Just claim Rainman status and it won't be any big deal. Then have her teach you to dance.
146: oh, you're silly. I've asked for and used plenty of real phone numbers. As long as she understands you're not a creep it isn't a big deal.
I always give out my number rather than asking for hers. This is not necessarily evidence that this is the right thing to do.
As much as 135 is correct, there's a qualitative difference between hanging up once before one declaring one's stalkerhood, and changing one's coffeeshop in the hope of seeing one's beflirted.
152: drank that cocktail right on down, no spills or anything.
141 etc: see i find this confusing for the following reasons:
Step 1. Meet girl
Step 2. Awesome connection
Step 3. Desirous of continued interaction at some future point.
Step 4. Ask for number
Step 5. Call number for interaction at later date.
If Step 5 is give number, then I doubt that Step 6 will be called for future interaction. This isn't me being old fashioned (I hope) just realistic. It's not that I wouldn't be fine if the called me, rather I don't assume that it will actually happen. Also w/r/t 146 I would think that if the girl was going to give me a fake number then she would equally not call me if i gave out my number.
He does fine, thank you very much,
If a woman gives you enough information about herself that you could find her, she's being forward in a way, too
In the circumstances, this is a stretch.
It's not that I wouldn't be fine if the called me, rather I don't assume that it will actually happen.
I think the idea is that you're gracefully allowing for it not to happen.
So if she doesn't call you, what happens? You die on the spot? How would you figure out which spot to die on?
I got digits twice in my brief single interregnum.
I got offered a card by a rabbinical student at a Purim dance. I offered my phone number in return, and went on a couple fun dates.
I also asked for the phone number of a waitress (after having settled the check -- pursuing service workers is borderline creepy, but I felt that acting after the tip was left was less so). She said, "I'm leaving town soon, so no promises", which I thought sounded just about right. I called the number and got what seemed like her machine, but no call back.
Not all that useful a data set.
157: Yes, but a totally hot stretch! It's not like he called a bunch of times or was (I assume) all like, "I can't stop thinking about that plane ride, and you, and your windblown crow's feet." He's made the only effort he could make, and now she'll decide whether that's cool, or else get his phone blocked. Either way, he tried, which makes Ogged better than most of us chumps.
or else get his phone blocked
How great would that be?
150: Sure, in real life guys ask for numbers and girls often give them out. And yes, giving your number puts you in the position of waiting for her to call and (as AWB points out) that position is kind of sucky (which is why the guys complain and worry about doing it, by the way, AWB, you sexist double-standard bearer).
But I don't like giving my number to strangers. And I *have* had creepy guys take advantage of knowing my number/business address. If you are worried about seeming creepy, offer your number, and as I say, the woman should offer hers in exchange if she's interested.
I just think it's generally a good rule for guys to recognize that it's more polite to offer private information rather than asking for it, is all.
Re. the business card, what you do, Ogged you dork, is you pull it out, apologize that it's a business card, and write your personal email on the back (if you have a pen) or apologize for not having a pen but tell her she can at least reach you there. Probably she won't, but again, it's a code: "now you know my name and where I work, so probably I am not a stalker, and if I am at least you'll know who to file the restraining order against." With that information in hand, most cautious women (me) will feel safe enough to offer their contact info in return.
My experience tracks with Sifu's in 150, and NP breaks it down nicely in 155. And the reason "give number" doesn't work for Step 5 is because it tends to send a "needy" or "nice guy" or (worst-case) "desperate/pathetic" vibe. (Sorry, teo, no offense.)
"ogged@unfogged but don't check that domain, 'k?"
163: It's not a double-standard! It's just that I despise placing phone calls to people for the first time. It's sort of a double-standard if you mean "things I want to do" vs. "things I'd rather other people did." I'd rather risk giving personal info than be the person who has to plan and ask for a date.
Part of that is that I'm extremely open-minded about date activities, and I like to do a lot of different kinds of stuff. But most of the guys I've dated tend to have their "thing" that they like to do, and I hate being told "no" when I ask them, "Why don't we go do [whatever] this Saturday?" just because it doesn't fit into their self-image.
So what about using the phone book and, you know, driving past the house of someone you've just met professionally?
Not stalkerish at all, right?
Ah well, she married me anyway. "Oh, so that's where you live. I had no idea."
165: You could set up a dummy account that forwards to your unfogged account, for extra conniving stalkery points.
(164 before I saw 163, but 163.3 is still daft, sorry. If a proposed rule of etiquette is likely to nullify the whole point of the interaction in most real-life cases, it's not going to catch on.)
Is there a decent domain out there that I could send people to that a)doesn't suck the marrow out of my privacy b)doesn't append ads to my shit, and c)doesn't reveal either my academic or regional affiliation?
141: Whether he gave his or got hers is besides the point, although I agree it's classy to offer yours. In ninja's situation, I think he should have moved a level up from email, if only to convey that he's interested in more of a "you're a cool person" kind of way.
165: "shialover@gmail.com" Except that i'm already using that one. (Nothing says "bad boy" like "possible terrorist.")
I got picked up on an airplane once! Made me feel super sexy.
I was flying home to visit my parents for Christmas. Went on a few fun dates over the holiday, and that was it.
155: No, step 4 is "offer your number" (which is a signal that you want to have further social interaction). Step 5 is that she offers hers in exchange, hopefully. If she doesn't then either she's a big dork, too, or else she's not interested. Yes, by offering you're taking the chance that she won't reciprocate and will never call you. But that chance is going to come up at some point regardless: you leave a message, and she doesn't call back. Or you catch her and ask her out but she says she's busy that evening. Or whatever.
157: Dear god, I didn't mean the woman on the plane; thinking she'd deliberately tried to get O. to look up her number *would* be creepy. I was talking about the Starbucks woman. The Ogged situation is clearly him breaking a rule, and hoping that his affect on the plane, and non-freaky message on the phone, will reassure surfer chick that he knows he's breaking a rule and is doing so not because he's a stalker, but because he thought she was just amazing and has been kicking himself ever since they spoke.
Notice that his way of signaling this was to *offer his number* and then leave the ball in her court.
No, step 4 is "offer your number" (which is a signal that you live with your mom and have never kissed a girl.
The tension between 163 and 164 is both interesting and problematic. I resolve it with my affable personality and winning smile, but there are probably better solutions.
Also, the needy thing is interesting and probably another reason that I tend to thing step 5 has to be ask for number.
Is there a decent domain out there
There's hushmail, but I don't know if it has ads.
pursuing service workers is borderline creepy, but I felt that acting after the tip was left was less so
This reminds me of a question I have. Suppose you're something of a regular at a place where there's a cute waitress who sometimes waits on you, and who tends to be a bit flirtatious in her manner toward you. Suppose further that the last time you were there she comped your drink. Would it be inappropriate next time to write your phone number on the receipt after paying?
166: You think that you are the only one that despises phone calls?? (just kidding of course, but god do i hate calling)
Once the games have begun, I'm all kinds of cyberstalkery. During the Initial Mad Googling of my current girlfriend, I discovered pictures of her at a show that she didn't know were online. The show was from a year before we'd met; I was in the audience too; there was a sequence in which she was standing with two friends, followed by a shot of me in more-or-less the same place with one of her friends in the background.
In another case I stalked a girl before I accidentally met her, which I thought was a novel accomplishment.
But most of the guys I've dated tend to have their "thing" that they like to do, and I hate being told "no" when I ask them, "Why don't we go do [whatever] this Saturday?" just because it doesn't fit into their self-image.
Seriously, wtf is up with these guys?
Okay, fine. My last word on the subject is that the men I hooked up with for casual sex were always the ones who offered me their personal information well in advance of asking mine, that the only dates I've ever gone on with people I met randomly were the ones where I did the asking out, and that lke I said, I never gave out my real phone number to strangers.
Also that, as I think we've established, it's actually really hard to pick up on a stranger, as opposed to starting to date someone you already know socially somehow. Part of the reason for this is that women tend to be wary of being hit on by strange men.
179: Yeah, calling blows. In fact, now that I think about it, I've never given my phone number to anyone, or gotten a phone number from anyone, with whom I didn't already have at least an email correspondence. I don't meet people in person, apparently. I've never been picked up in a bar, so I don't know the first thing about this stuff. Ignore me entirely.
gmail.com counts as marrow-sucking.
extremely open-minded
Hey, AWB, do you feel like backpacking Torres del Paine? The rodents are manageable this time of year.
178: no, it just wouldn't accomplish anything.
181: Are you sure you don't want to hear what [whatever] is before you blame the guys?
Are you sure you don't want to hear what [whatever] is before you blame the guys?
Yes.
Seriously, wtf is up with these guys?
The worst thing is that they're getting more action than you. There is no god.
176.2: Honestly, the needy thing is the entire reason I advise against it. B is mistaken that most guys don't give out their numbers because they fear rejection; the fear of rejection is why we ask for numbers and then don't call. The etiquette of who asks in the first place is, by contrast, tied up with the persisting gender conventions of our fallen world. I personally would be much happier with giving out my number if I thought there was the remotest chance of it working; much less nerve-racking.
Ogged, this is absolutely fantastic. Because being in the game, no matter what, is a lot better than sitting on the sidelines. Alhough the fact that so many of us, including me, got a vicarious rush is kind of interesting and maybe creepy.
And ninjaphilosopher, my two cents, if a girl gives you her email and tells you where she works, at that moment she is hoping to see you. This is a wonderful and cool thing. If you've got any nervousness about this, ask her out via email. This way you'll know if she is still hoping to see you again etc. And then write about it in the first available comment thread at the mineshaft.
The worst thing is that they're getting more action than you. There is no god.
Word.
I think B is asking for people's numbers.
174: Depends on the guy, now, doesn't it?
178: Aha. So this is what Slack's talking about. Yes, it seems needy to do that, because again, it's indirect (and has sort of wannabe playerish overtones--hey, babe, my digits are on the receipt; call me!). You're not even actually *giving* her the number, just leaving it for her to pick up.
What you should do is tell her, "thanks for the drink last time. Can I return the favor sometime when you're off duty?" If she says yes, then you ask for her number and when you should call, and then you call her and make a proper date.
Are we seriously working on getting both teo and ninja laid now? I don't know if I have the attention span for this project.
i think it borders on the creepy (seriously, how long did she flash those papers in front of you? seconds?), but depending on what was said on the answering machine it could be charming in its own weird way. anyways, you've got guts, which is more than most people can say. also i once called ogged for something or other and he's got a very nice phone voice, so that could work in his favor.
183: Hmmm so maybe starting with email wasn't so dumb. Also, what kind of strange people have a 'thing' and they don't do other 'things?' And 'thing' like? they only hang out a coffee shops? or they only go parasailing?
Also that, as I think we've established, it's actually really hard to pick up on a stranger, as opposed to starting to date someone you already know socially somehow.
This is very true, and I really doubt I'll ever be the sort of guy who asks out random strangers.
178: You want cute-waitress tipmongering vs. cute-waitress flirting? Ask a cute waitress my friend. I'm not handsome enough to do the research.
178: Sifu is right. Also, dating the servers at any place you frequent is an even worse idea than dating poets. If it goes wrong, you can never go there again (at least not for a long while).
182.2: Part of the reason for this is that women tend to be wary of being hit on by strange men.
Ya think? It's not like anyone's advising NP to wander up drunkenly to a table and say "you're purty, can I call you?"
Would it be inappropriate next time to write your phone number on the receipt after paying?
Don't do it. Waitresses get hit on relentlessly. If you want to ask her out--and chances are she says no, b/c she really does get hit on a gawdawful amount--ask her out straight up, so that if she says no, she can see that you're fine with it, etc.
184: I'd love to, FM. Seriously, I'm a game sort of person.
By [whatever] I just mean things like going to a particular part of town ("Oh, the Lower East Side? I don't go to hipster bars. I'll be annoyed.") or going to a particular kind of entertainment ("Is this one of those weird avant-garde things? I won't understand it.") or eating a particular kind of food ("Soba? It sounds Japanese and possibly gross."). That kind of thing.
I can't think of anything all this incipient lovin' needs more than a little sprig of audio mistletoe.
Therefore:
Wrongshore's Two-Volume Christmas Mix!
Vol 1: A Aw Yeah Christmas
1. We Wish You A Merry Christmas / The Sesame Street Cast
2. The Christmas Massacre of Charlie Brown / DJ John
3. Jingle Bells / Bleu
4. Who Took The Merry Out Of Christmas / The Staple Singers
5. Christmas Wrapping / Waitresses
6. We Wish You A Merry Christmas / The Ventures
7. All I Want For Christmas Is You / Mariah Carey
8. Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town / The Jackson 5
9. Christmas Time / The dB's
10. Christmas On Riverside Drive / August Darnell
11. I Don't Intend To Spend Christmas Without You / Margo Guryan
12. Back Door Santa / Clarence Carter
13. Christmas Is Coming / Vince Guaraldi
14. Wonderful Christmastime / Rhythm Scholar vs. Paul McCartney
Vol 2: A Uh Uh Christmas
1. Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas / Diana Krall
2. So This Is Xmas / John Lennon
3. The Mistletoe And Me / Isaac Hayes
4. White Christmas / Willie Nelson
5. Christmas Eve Can Kill You / The Everly Brothers
6. Just Like Christmas/ Low
7. Christmas Past / Mike Ireland & Holler
8. Santa Came Home Drunk / Clyde Lasley & The Cadillacs
9. Reindeer Boogie / Hank Snow
10. Last Christmas / Manic Street Preachers
11. Blue Christmas / Esquivel
12. The Christmas Song / Mel Torme
13. Baby, It's Cold Outside / Wrongshore's Nifty Ukulele Klatsch
Graphic borrowed from Forming: The Early Days of L.A. Punk at Track 16 Gallery.
What you should do is tell her, "thanks for the drink last time. Can I return the favor sometime when you're off duty?" If she says yes, then you ask for her number and when you should call, and then you call her and make a proper date.
In that case, fuck it. I don't care enough to bother.
Would it be inappropriate next time to write your phone number on the receipt after paying?
Why not just ask her if she wants to grab coffee sometime? Chances are if you've talked for a while, and there seems to be interest, there's nothing wrong with asking. If she says yes, exchange numbers. If she says no, she'll be nice and probably say she has a boyfriend (which is probably likely anyway, unfortunately).
I had a very similar situation with an extremely good looking Starbucks barista about a year or two ago, though of course it's kinda stupid to ask a Starbucks person out for coffee. Sadly ended up exchanging numbers, and then deleting it after calling a couple times with no reply. Bleh. This whole thread is reminding me of a really disheartening string of cute girls and good initial conversations, no real way of grabbing coffee or food immediately (due to super-late night or something similar), followed by number-exchanging then voice messages with no reply. It had me seriously wondering what was wrong with me for a while in the midst of a nasty dryspell. Oof.
202c: That is incredibly stupid
200: I think is probably good advice, but there is nothing wrong with trying to talk to her. If a conversation gets started well maybe it's ok to ask her out. that said, if you value going to the restaurant, then 202 is probably right.
B is mistaken that most guys don't give out their numbers because they fear rejection; the fear of rejection is why we ask for numbers and then don't call.
That's not why I think men don't give out numbers! I think men don't do it because women aren't taught to ask and because it simply doesn't occur to guys. What I'm saying is that from this woman's pov, being asked for a phone number without having one on hand seems like I'm being asked to put myself at risk--sure, probably the guy won't call, but then again, he might not only call but *keep* calling. Plus, you know, it's awkward to *refuse* to give out a number once it's asked for.
You're right, Slack, about persisting gender conventions and our fallen world, which is why I said before that in real life guys do ask for numbers and most girls do give them. But you're wrong that guys who offer numbers seem desperate; all the men who've offered me their numbers/email/etc. have always seemed extremely pulled together in part because they have the manners not to put me in an awkward position.
199, 200, 201: Okay, fair enough. I've never worked food service so I really just don't know how this stuff works.
193 and 201 are exactly right, and 198 is no reason not to try it. Although before trying it, it might be wise to imagine how a very cool person would handle being rejected and then returning to the coffee shop and his previous cool-patron status, and then to pretend to be that cool person.
And sorry teo, that got really rambley and depressing there at the end.
211: Dude, you don't have to apologize to me of all people about getting rambly and depressing.
In that case, fuck it. I don't care enough to bother.
Then why would you want to give her your number in the first place?
208.2: I completely believe you, B. But I don't think your attitude, commendable though it is, is yet commonplace even among progressive women.
(There may be some regionalized skewing here, what with me living in the Texas of the North and all. But I don't think I'm out on too much of a limb.)
I should report that my initial reaction to Ogged's post was abject horror, while I imagined myself in his shoes, doing something possibly horrendously creepy. But then the second, more important realization followed, which was that, had I enjoyed a couple of hours on a plane with someone I really liked and didn't know how I felt about it at the time but later realized I really did like, I'd be massively impressed if he did what Ogged did.
210: I always try to imagine how a very cool person would do what i am doing. Unfortunately that doesn't always help.
Then why would you want to give her your number in the first place?
Because hey, you never know, and this would be a very low-risk way to find out. Which seems to be why it's a bad idea.
214: Ah, but do you want dates or do you want dates with women as fabulous as me? That is the question.
Anyway, you should try it once or twice. I bet you ten bucks that after you say "hey, can I give you my number?" and give it to her, she'll give you hers back.
I bet you ten bucks that after you say "hey, can I give you my number?" and give it to her, she'll give you hers back.
I think every time I've given a girl my number, she's given me hers in return. I can't remember the details of every time, though.
ninjaphilosopher you wank, you'd better go talk to this chick. Because hours of conversation + giving you her email address + telling you where she works is practically an invitation to make out with her right there in the bookstore.
217: Yeah, "hey, you never know" isn't exactly the best way to go after a relationship. It's not a bad way, though, of accepting an invitation, so if she does decide to ask you out, then hey, say yes. After all, she's the one who seems interested, so feel free to play the "girl's role" in this one and see what happens.
After all, she's the one who seems interested, so feel free to play the "girl's role" in this one and see what happens.
Yeah, I'll do that. I doubt anything'll come of it, but we'll see.
223: No, no, the girl's role isn't to say "I doubt anything'll come of it." The girl's role is to notice the other person is flirting, and flirt back a bit (accept the drink, return to the bar, smile, etc.). You're doing those things. Now the question is merely whether she's got the skirt to ask you out, or not.
224: Yeah, I mean, I have been doing those things, and will continue to. I just, well, doubt anything'll come of it.
Massively impressed was my reaction. But, beware! I was massively impressed, and now I'm on the hook for two tickets to Lima, and then a 24 hour bus ride to Punta Arenas.
What is it with you and South America, FM?
B's opinions on phone numbers sound to me like they were formed in the pre-cell era. In my experience, asking for someone's number always results in you both pulling out your phones and entering each other's numbers. I can't think of any instances where I've had a one-way exchange of a number.
What is it with you and South America, FM?
Age of consent laws?
219 is actually starting to sound fairly convincing, though it might just be the attached prose style. I can sort of see how, if done correctly, might come across as being more confident sounding than needy.
221: Yeah I'm (trying to be) on it. This could all fizzle in long distance hell. I don't exactly live close to 'home,' more like the other side of the country. We have communicated briefly and tentatively set something up for after school ends. Also I'm thinking of sending her a poem.
219: or do you want dates with women as fabulous as me?
Hard to come by, I suspect.
Anyway, you should try it once or twice.
I don't mean to claim there's some hard-and-fast "the digits only go in one direction" rule; of course a more normal situation is that one party suggests exchanging numbers, and you exchange them. But I have, in fact, led once or twice with "can I give you my number," and no, it didn't work.
In my experience, asking for someone's number always results in you both pulling out your phones and entering each other's numbers.
That seems right to me, too.
Also I'm thinking of sending her a poem.
In the general case, poetry is an error. I'm not sure how much this is impacted by it being the center of your first talk.
228: Many of us are still in the pre-cell era. I don't own a cell phone, and about 50-60% of people I know don't own cell phones.
Also I'm thinking of sending her a poem.
You're gonna give me an aneurysm over here.
I don't own a cell phone, and about 50-60% of people I know don't own cell phones.
Sure, in Canada.
Gawd, just reread the post. So wrong, so awesome. Either ogged gets a call back or Home Depot gets an order for home security system.
237: I communicate with my relatives in BC by dogsled.
Dogsled probably *is* faster than CanadaPost; I don't blame you.
238: Hey, if she can handle Bay Area water temps and the occasional GWS, she ought to be able to handle the Horny Scrawny Lur. Also, surfer chicks have great shoulders.
Don't tell me there's some good way to tell someone's machine that you're a stalker, because there isn't.
I am remembering the answering machine scene from Swingers here.
Am I allowed to laugh yet at the fact that Mr. "California is lovely, but Calfornians are crazy hippies and I hate hippies" is crushing on a surfer chick?
Also, Wrongshore, I haven't listened yet, but thanks for the mix! I'm secretly a sucker for Xmas music.
Am I allowed to laugh yet at the fact that Mr. "California is lovely, but Calfornians are crazy hippies and I hate hippies" is crushing on a surfer chick?
I sure hope so, because I am.
Hey, DS! I support your movement against cell phones! I'll send you one US Dollar in exchange for one Canadian dollar in a show of my support!
This thread has reinforced the lesson my poetry teacher gave on the first day, which was (paraphrasing): "Don't call yourself poets until you have a Wikipedia article (you assholes). You "like to write poetry," or you "took some classes on writing poetry," or you "have had a few poems published."
245: You are very welcome. I figured it would have a narrow but intense listenership.
The Diana Krall at the beginning of 1 is one of my favorite performances of any standard. She captures the bitter heart of the song: for "Little", read "Fucking".
227: I don't speak Cantonese. You're right, I really do love South America. Yanqui tourists haven't figured it out yet and they're still dependent upon the dollar rather than the euro. More than that, aside from the Carribean countries, a simple "Que Puta Bootch" is like a political handshake. People in SA are political in the way your average suburbanite isn't. They all have opinions about international finance, and not all of them the way you might think. They might hate me as an "American", but that doesn't stop them about arguing with me about the IMF or Mercosur, or Venezuelan shit-stirring. They're all different, of course, by region more than country, but none of them give me shit over being American, which is is more than I can say for a couple European countries, and they all feed me tasty food (except bolivia, their food sucks).
249: I'll send you one US Dollar in exchange for one Canadian dollar in a show of my support!
You know what this makes me wonder is if the Nigerian scammer guys are going to catch on to the new exchange rate thing as an opportunity to add something new to their repertoire.
"Hello and God's blessings to you,
I hope that I am sending this e-mail is not degrading to you. My name is Brian Mulroney, former Prime Minister of Canada, and I have a confidential financial matter that I would like to discuss with you..."
233: I think that sending a poem, preferably one written about the person it is sent to, is the truest way to express one's deepest emotions....
What the Hell?? Of course it's because of our conversation. There really are people out there who write poetry, it I had said that she was a writer no one (I assume) would have even commented, but because she is a writer who writes poetry it sends some kind of shmaltzy/flaky/cheezy signals. Does anyone here actually like poetry??
253: "While the War on Terrorism was a ridiculous misadventure undertaken on a lark of a farce, US citizens e-mailed more comfortably for several years thereafter. Until the power got shut off."
People in SA are political in the way your average suburbanite isn't. They all have opinions about international finance, and not all of them the way you might think. They might hate me as an "American", but that doesn't stop them about arguing with me about the IMF or Mercosur, or Venezuelan shit-stirring.
To me this sounds like a reason not to go there, but obviously tastes differ.
This would be a bad time to float my "the talented poets I've known were all kind of crazy" theory, wouldn't it?
Does anyone here actually like poetry??
No.
it I had said that she was a writer no one (I assume) would have even commented, but because she is a writer who writes poetry it sends some kind of shmaltzy/flaky/cheezy signals.
"I'm a writer" means "it's my job to write", otherwise it's pretentious. Same standard for poetry. People are skeptical because the professional poet is a rare breed.
Which is not to say that you shouldn't go for it, of course.
254: Does anyone here actually like poetry?
Yes. Hence my wariness of people who describe themselves as poets.
Even among people who write and publish poetry, writing poems to one another is, I'm afraid, a pretty reliable sign of Teh Schmaltz. Sorry.
After my wife moved out last year, she sent me a Larkin poem every day for two weeks. This one was typical:
Counting
Thinking in terms of one
Is easily done --
One room, one bed, one chair,
One person there,
Makes perfect sense; one set
Of wishes can be met,
One coffin filled.
But counting up to two
Is harder to do;
For one must be denied
Before it's tried.
Send Larkin, I say.
Wait, I thought he was just going to send her a poem he liked. Are you going to write one, NP? I wash my hands of you.
261 made me laugh.
hey, unrelated question for lawyer types:
say you file a public version of a motion with redactions on ECF one night, & file the whole thing under seal with the clerk's office via courier the next morning.
say that the judge denies the motion before opposition or hearing on Monday of the next week. On Tuesday, you get a notice from the court that your sealed version has been entered (though it was filed several days before). Does this mean that the judge denied your motion before bothering to read the unredacted version? Or is it just a clerical delay that's unrelated to whether the judge saw the thing?
This has no practical implications--I'm just deciding how many more notches my belief in The Law in Its Majesty should drop.
Stay the fuck away from people who tell you they're poets. I'm not even kidding you.
This is the one perfect, shining, crystalline truth in this thread.
257: Not at all surprising and I suspect not all that uncommon among really creative people. Back when I first started philosophy i used to think that only some of the professors were bizarre, but then eventually i realized that it was merely a question of not who was bizarre, but how well they hid it. Also my brother is a composer so I have quite a bit of experience with wacky artsy types.
258: :-P
Whilst sipping an overpriced tea,
I thought of her grand poetry.
For, lo, did it taste
of the essence of waste.
"What the fuck am I doing here?!"
I've always assumed i didn't get poetry. I can't really say I dislike it if I can't understand it can I? Or are you all running some kind of a game to flush us out?
Or are you all running some kind of a game to flush us out?
Got another one! Hold him down and let's punch him!
I like poetic references, if that helps.
264: Of course I'm not going to write a poem. I hoped the sarcasm was obvious, but the internet can be difficult.
260: This is a good point, but, and maybe i'm just easily impressed, i thought her command over the forms and goals of poetry was both interesting and impressive. If she wants to call herself a poet, who am i to argue.
264: i didn't realize it was possible to be in your field and dislike poetry, but ok--strange.
This would be a bad time to float my "the talented poets I've known were all kind of crazy" theory, wouldn't it?
The first thing my poetry professor did was write 'word' and 'world' on the board.
"Coincidence? Just one letter separates them: 'L.' 'L.' as in love, laugh, listen, life."
271: Or are you all running some kind of a game to flush us out?
Whenever someone publicly admits to not getting poetry, all published poets in the vicinity are contractucally obligated to gather around in a circle and do this.
272: thanks for the help, it looks like I'm going to need back up here. maybe more poetry loving ninjas
I should add that her talent remains in question.
Whenever someone publicly admits to not getting poetry, all published poets in the vicinity are contractucally obligated to gather around in a circle and do this.
Luckily, there are so few published poets that this hardly ever actually happens.
"Coincidence? Just one letter separates them: 'L.' 'L.' as in love, laugh, listen, life."
Arrgh.
274: I have, on several occasions, said some version of 274.2 to myself. In retrospect, the truth of the matter was that i thought her command over the forms and goals of poetry was tits were both interesting and impressive. Data point.
278: I'm not a ninja, but I'll do what I can.
'L.' as in love, laugh, listen, life."
Lame.
"Coincidence? Just one letter separates them: 'L.' 'L.' as in love, laugh, listen, life."
It is your duty as the student to take out said professor at that moment by throwing an object like a rock or unopened can of soda.
i didn't realize it was possible to be in your field and dislike poetry, but ok--strange.
264 is some sort of reference (see 261), but b's specialty is prose.
It is your duty as the student to take out said professor at that moment by throwing an object like a rock or unopened can of soda.
One might say, however, that this is what you get for choosing a school based on how cool its name sounds.
The series mentioned above should be followed by "Lynching"
It is your duty as the student to take out said professor at that moment by
Laughing. Which also starts with an "L."
278 and 284: what is this, the internet?
288: i wondered if that was the case.
283: 'tits' should probably be replaced with 'cute asian girl' and of course that helped.
264 is some sort of reference (see 261), but b's specialty is prose.
My specialty is making unrecognized allusions, apparently.
'L.' as in love, laugh, listen, life.
Lick me, loser.
I've written my husband a poem AND made him not one but two collages.
'tits' should probably be replaced with 'cute asian girl' and of course that helped.
What, she carries one around with her?
The series mentioned above should be followed by "Lynching"
Someone (not me, sadly) was witty enough to blurt out: "List!"
My specialty is making unrecognized allusions, apparently.
No wonder you left academia.
I won a poetry contest sponsored by a regional theater in 8th grade and my poem RHYMED dammit.
My standard date repertoire had included poetry references. The latter part of this thread has made me reconsider them. I do not want to remind anyone of the ugliness that a certain ninja has been through.
305: And people think this blog isn't useful.
and it seems to have worked out for him
All of my comments will have rhymed eventually, but it's up to you to determine the appropriate order.
Hey if I had said she was a 'cute white girl' would that have made me a Caucasionist?
306: No wonder Derrida left academia.
305: Poetry references remain very good; inasmuch as showing off is a small part of flirting, it can be impressive. Original poems are very good between the ages of 12 and 16, and are thereafter high-risk.
If they are funny, the risk is lower. I remember that in college I faxed original poems back and forth across the continent with a girl I wished to woo. E-mail was very young, then.
Hey if I had said she was a 'cute white girl' would that have made me a Caucasionist?
No, just a racist.
Apropos of ninja's romantic problems, it's (almost) fitting to interject with a joke:
Person 1: Hey, did you see that ninja parade downtown today?
Person 2: No!
Person 1: [super serious] No one did.
There's nothing wrong with liking (some) poetry. Talking about poetry is inadvisable. Referring to oneself as 'a poet' is unforgivable.
311: because no one got his allusions? Maybe we need some kind of originary allusion that can happen between the allusion and the alluded.
307: Just because of you I've googled yeats. He's gotta have something sexy. He was prolific!
313: how does that even work?
314 is very funny.
There are good poems. They all end Fuck You Clown.
Look at us--an entire thread about dating, and no fights have broken out.
We're losing our touch.
Look at us--an entire thread about dating, and no fights have broken out.
Yet.
ok all, thanks for the suggestion, both good and bad, but it is 2 am here and i have logic bright and early. good night
how does that even work?
Well, why would you feel the need to mention her race if it didn't matter to you?
It's only midnight here, but I too should go to bed. Good night, everyone.
324: Much too late to argue about this--and here we were about to prove B wrong. Oh well.
Your 323 reminds me that I've yet
to dine, so go and nail your hot poet.
People should always mention race, so that I can refine (but not over-refine!) my comprehensive list of stereotypes.
Wrongshore, thanks for the music. A really nice selection. The dBs and the Waitresses!
OT, I've just been to hear this group, and I'd recommend you do the same; they'll be in NYC December 4. I couldn't take my eyes off Linn F (the red-haired one). Such a good musician, and cheekbones for days. Plus, she did her dissertation on Restoration Mad Songs. How cool is that?
OT: I am about to order a Manhattan with rye and Peychaud's bitters, Blume is getting something called a "Mary Pickford", our other drinking companion is enjoying a rye and Moxie, and none of us can remember what the deal with Plymouth gin is. 1. this bar rules, and 2. where's w-lfs-n when you need him?
At a decidedly non-ruling bar, alas.
ok all, thanks for the suggestion, both good and bad, but it is 2 am here and i have logic bright and early. good night
Posted by: ninjaphilosopher | Link to this comment | 11-28-07 12:04 AM
Now we can start the fights:
I, for one, am sure that Hilary Clinton would make a lovely President. Discuss.
I, for one, am sure that Hilary Clinton would make a lovely President. Discuss.
I, for one, am sure that anyone who suggests bringing back members of Bush's cabinet need a kick to the baby maker.
333: I'm just now listening to the Folk Songs CD, which accounted for most of tonight's program. Really great.
334: Did she do that? Jesus christ.
334: You heard that too? It's too bad and all, but insufficiently incendiary. Bitch at 320 is looking disturbingly prescient.
I'm just now listening to the Folk Songs CD
Ha, me too, now, on Rhapsody.
334: Did she do that? Jesus christ.
Ezra over at Tapped linked to a NY Times article where she talks about bringing back guys like Colin Powell. Sweet.
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=11&year=2007&base_name=comentum#079538
I'm listening to random things on hypem.com (thanks to Tweety) and reconsidering whether Mrs. Clinton would turn out to be a lovely President.
Yeah, she'd probably pull through, not that I trust her. Lovely maintained, in my book.
I've distracted the blog. The noteworthy thing about this thread, apart from the fact that ogged was a pimp in another life, is that very few of us like poetry. Who amongst us does? I got suckered into Yeats in High School with The Second Coming, as I imagine most of you were, but I couldn't get over it. The Rape of Leda the Swan, Sailing to Byzantium, those all rock in my book. Any other poetry though, it bounces off of me. Eliot? Go fuck yourself. Rilke? Well, Rilke does kind of get to me, but Dickinson? I couldn't be bothered. Fuck Frost, too. Etc.
I like Yeats, Auden (especially the early stuff that he later renounced), Whitman.
I try to write it occasionally & still like some of my efforts though there are more I find embarrassing--I never did it much, though, & I did it even less after realizing that I have no ear whatsoever for meter.
I do like poetry. So go fuck yourself, Foolishmortal.
Ogged isn't being creepy, although he's undeniably upping the fun factor for his internet audience. What the hell, you have to get together somehow. What I do find, well...not creepy, but a bit sad perhaps, is how strongly his romantic desires appear to be shaped in opposition to his mother and his family. Although it's understandable and all.
Oh, and I dated a poet for quite some time. It was everything you'd want from dating a poet/artist type. Lyrical, beautiful, and heartbreaking at the end. She in many ways quite inarticulate, but had an amazing gift for language at the same time. It was like she was too expressive for clear articulation.
Trying to publish poetry is generally a money-losing sort of occupation, so in that sense it's closer to a hobby. But a certain type of person who writes poetry just loves to refer to themselves as a "poet", start off sentences with things like "As a poet, I...", talk about the role of "the poet", etc. Fortunately she was not such a person.
Pwned by 315! Who woulda thunk it, except that once a thread is over 300 comments you're always presumptively pwned.
I'm the only person still awake on the whole internets, aren't I?
The problem with poetry is that you need to hear it rather than read it, and most of the people who are comfortable declaiming poetry, especially their own poetry are unbearably pretentious.
But I have a sneaking fondness for BBC Radio 4's Poetry Please programme, which takes requests from listeners. Yes, this means most of what you get to hear is relatively conservative, but does get you a good overview of still popular classic poetry.
Maybe my problem is that I read everything, and my ratio of spoken to read word is insufficiently high. For instance,
I do like/
poetry/
So go fuck yourself/
Foolish mortal.
demands a final clause to my ear, if not a continuation..
I've figured it out! Here's the verse:
I do/
like poetry/
So go fuck yourself/
Foolish mortal/
you're stupid/
illiterate/
and glib.
Lest you wonder why I don't like poetry.
Do I have to read the whole thread before jumping in with "Yay Ogged!"
I will wait anxiously to find out if she called back or called the FBI, but Yay!
Okay, now having finished (skimming) the thread...
Katherine: I'd assume clerical delay. Though I have also reached that stage in the career that having a judge deny my motion without reading it wouldn't surprise, either.
Poets: Did the woman in question say "I'm a poet" or did she say "I like to write poetry" which NP condensed for us into "she's a poet"? The former does seem a little unusual, the latter sounds appealing.
Digits: I'm with B -- I would feel better to get someone's number before (or at least simultaneously with) giving out mine. Part of that's a control thing -- giving out mine and sitting around waiting to find out whether he's going to call just seems so helpless and annoying. Granted, that's probably what I'd end up doing even if it was a mutual exchange because, at heart, I am in fact helpless and annoying. Just getting his and being the only one who could possibly call would seem empowering. (This is all theoretical speculation on my part, though, as I believe I have given out my number for romantic purposes all of once in my entire life. He didn't immediately volunteer his, but I got it a few hours later when he actually called.)
Way to raise the bar, bro. You're one step from "I search her garbage for old pantyhose to keep as pets."
This is mostly OT, but all those people upthread talking about how they hate making phone calls, taking them, etc.? My advice: get a different job. I used to HATE phone calls, but three months into my job, after having to make calls to and receive calls from all manner of government people, insane ex-cons, and people I can't understand, the phone no longer seems daunting to me in the least. It's just a box that voices come out of. They don't really exist.
Ogged should hire Di Kotimy to deliver the salient points of a given thread to a client's email. What such a condensation should be called is left as an exercise to the reader.
Wait, surfer chick is a prospective client? I apparently really missed the salient points of the thread...
Wait, surfer chick is a prospective client?
Absolutely. She is looking for lawyers who handle protective orders right now.
354: I love taking phone calls. I particularly like taking angry phone calls, and talking them down from their fury. I'm good at it, too. It makes me feel like a guru, "Yes, Mr. Pissed, our customer service does rather suck, but if I show you that I'm a human being, you'll be embarrassed to be that pissed off, given that I've never done anything to you" I'm ridiculously good at this maneuver, like, 30 seconds good. If there were a spec ops CSR school, I'd be a trainer, and they'd deploy me to handle "special cases".
356: Don't let them fuck with you. The prospective client in 355 is the unfogged reader who couldn't be bothered to read the thread, and would thus rely on your services.
358 comments because Ogged made a phone call, which may or may not ever be returned.
This blog is so much better than Modern Love.
267 -- Katherine, I wouldn't draw that inference at all. It may well be that the judge read the sealed filing before giving it to the clerk for filing. It was clear from the redacted filing that the unredacted thing was going to be there, right? Of course.
As for Majesty, clap harder.
357 -- And although it's not perfectly clear from the post, it seems more than possible that some significant part of the claim here arose in Illinois.
Will and ogged's mom are in cahoots. You heard it here first.
360: 358 comments because Ogged made a phone call
Well it could have been worse.
Robert Clayton Dean: What the hell is happening?
Brill: I blew up the building.
Robert Clayton Dean: Why?
Brill: Because you made a phone call.
I love poetry.
I congratulate ogged on his bravery. This poem, by Sharon Olds, I post in honor of Mrs. Old Chick Surfer:
THE OLDER
The older I get, the more I feel
almost beautiful - not my face, plain
puritan face, but my body. And I will be
fifty, soon, my body getting
withery and scrawny, and I like its silvery
witheriness, the skin thinning,
surface of a lake crimped by wind, ruched
wraith, a wrinkle of smoke. Yet when
I look down, I can see, sometimes,
things that if a young woman saw she would
scream, as if at a horror movie,
turned to a crone in an instant - if I lean
far enough forward, I can see the fine
birth skin of my stomach pucker
and hang, in tiny peaks, like wet stucco.
And yet I can imagine being eighty, made
entirely, on the outside, of that,
and making love with the same animal
dignity, the tunnel remaining
the inside of a raspberry bract.
Suddenly, I look young to myself
next to that eighty-year-old, I look
like her child, my flesh in its loosening drape
showing the long angles of these strange
bones like cooking-utensil handles in heaven.
When I was younger, I looked, to myself,
sometimes, like a crude drawing of a female -
the breasts, the 1940s flare of the hips -
but this greyish, dented being is cosy as
a favourite piece of clothing, she is almost
lovable, now, to me. Of course, it is
his love I am seeing, the working of his thumb
over this lucky nickel - five times
five years in his pocket. Maybe
even if I died, I would not look ugly
to him. Sometimes, now, I dance
like shirred smoke above a chimney.
Sometimes, now, I think I live
in the place where the solemn, wild drinking
of coming is done, I am not all day coming
but all day living in that place where it is done.
All is forgiven. You're one of like, one, non front page posters who could have gotten away with that Fleur.
366-7: see what minivet did?
370 Don't encourage her, dammit.
And although it's not perfectly clear from the post, it seems more than possible that some significant part of the claim here arose in Illinois.
Under the circumstances, I suspect that she will be able to get a protective order wherever she lives.
Given Ogged's actions now, I am certain that DC Unfogged will be under surveillance. With Ogged (suspicious activity on a plane toward a woman), Napi (suspicious orderer of cheese), and a woman with close ties to Eygpt, I am starting to think that DC Unfogged is the fed's version of the ND sheriff's Ozzy ticket sting.
At least I learned a new word: bract.
two tickets to Lima, and then a 24 hour bus ride to Punta Arenas.
That is one dangerously fast bus, especially considering that the roads aren't paved for most of the last thousand miles.
I'm pretty sure now that will is in cahoots with all our moms.
369
"Here...in...the liver. Stab...the...liver."
374: Oh, it's mostly desert, we'll do fine. The faster the better. Nice try fucking up my date though.
I'll add my encouragement.
My wife often taught Sharon Olds, but I don't remember her talking about that one. I can see it as just the kind of mind-expanding thing she liked to give to students.
Really lovely, and characteristic.
I'm pretty sure now that will is in cahoots with all our moms.
Based on the advice will provides me, I'm pretty sure he's not in cahoots with my mom.
Who isn't suspicious of cheese?
I like poetry, but music more. And in combination, the best. I just listened to Boz Scaggs' Baby's Calling Me Home, from the Last Days of Fillmore record. Those horns really get you thinking about what might have been.
Based on the advice will provides me, I'm pretty sure he's not in cahoots with my mom.
Your mom only said "Not Ogged." She was fine with all of the other men.
Actually, if you take the 2,800-mile route, it's mostly ocean. Desert will cost you an extra 300 miles or so.
Wait, my mom doesn't like Ogged?
Hey there, Ogged... [bats eyelashes]
OT: Happy Birthday Apo!!!
40, right? Welcome to the club. The old people will be talking about wine and cheese today.
Happy birthday Oldpostropher! I... I love you.
The old people will be talking about wine and cheese today
...specifically, their impact on bladder pressure and bowel function, respectively.
Is it really 40? Apocalpyse now motherfuckers. We should paint the main page black.
Mr.Sifu: Is your blog permanently dead? Does Mr. The Editors no longer give a shit?
Sorry, guys, but I'm only 39. Thanksgiving Day, 1968.
If Fleur is still reading, I'm wondering if her pseud is in part a reference to Rilke's Rose poems, written in French.
391
"C'est toi qui prepares en toi
plus que toi, ton ultime essence.
Ce qui sort de toi, ce troublant emoi,
c'est ta danse."
Forgive my inability to type properly in French.
391: A little after I first saw Fleur commenting, I found myself singing "Fleur bleue" to myself. I take unconscious cues like that a lot.
Forgive my inability to type properly in French.
Hey, if English typography was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for this place.
If Fleur is still reading, I'm wondering if her pseud is in part a reference to Rilke's Rose poems, written in French.
That would be cool if, because I seduced her* in part by reading to her from that book (which she had given me for Christmas), on a day when she was having a really bad day.
*this attributes more agency to me than was probably really justified by the circumstances, but I like to tell myself that
I take unconscious cues like that a lot.
Fleur, you want to regale the crowd with my embarassing stories in this regard?
396: Oh, I hope that's it, because then we can all share in the reflected romantic warmth. Fleur, even if that's not true, please lie to us and say that it is!
You can claim all the agency you want on that on....
Oh Knecht, I love you! (sorry, wrong thread).
(sorry, wrong thread).
There is no such thread.
397
Gladly!
Before everyone here thinks that it's all wine and roses at the Ruprechts- When we were dating Knecht and I were in an airport in the UK waiting on a cheap flight to Ireland. I was feeling very amorous about the upcoming weekend away.
There was a lovely young (as in younger by Fleur by atleast 10 years) lady in the waiting area with us who was sporting a skin tight, very flattering, tee shirt. Across her beautiful, pert breasts was the world: PERFECT. Knecht was not paying attention to my flirtations, and when I asked if he had anything on his mind his eyes glazed over and he mumbled, "No."
A few moments later, he broke out into a rousing refrain of the song, "It's got to be-e-e-e, PERFECT."
I am such a geek. Sorry again!!!
401 was me.
I claim Apocalypse Later as a band name/handle. It would kind of rock as either.
403: you're a little late to that party, foolishmortal
402: I've found the community to be much more forgiving when tits are involved. Bitch would have my stripes for this but it's true.
404: Am I really? Who beat me? Is there a commenter/punk band that I've missed?
There's Apocalypse Later On, but your version is more concise.
Also, Hopkins can suck it. This is poetry.
Wrongshore @ 203: you seem to have reached your 1Gb limit. Any chance of uploading the mix again?
(But I suspect 141.2 is completely wrong. I'd be curious to know how many of the male Unfoggedtariat have ever gotten a date by giving a phone number instead of asking for one.)
I think it's completely wrong. Maybe it's true for picking up middle-aged divorced women.
I wish there were an easy way of giving someone an email address without having to look for a pen or paper, or some shit.
Fleur gave me one of her checks. But she was smart enough to write "VOID" across it.
No, just kidding. But she really did take one of her checks and tear the corner part off with her address and give it to me.
It's all a state of mind, Di. Good attitude.
I'd be curious to know how many of the male Unfoggedtariat have ever gotten a date by giving a phone number instead of asking for one.
This one, at least.
Happy birthday! Sorry the baby's ill. Little kids are such germ factories. It's really a pretty bad design flaw that should be covered under their warranty.
As a co-manufacturer (we presume), I don't think Apo can be making any warranty claims.
Maybe it's true for picking up middle-aged divorced women.
Ned, you poor thing. Middle-aged divorced women are the creme de la creme. Don't turn your nose down on them. One day, you will realize how much better women are at 35 plus than they are at under 30. (no offense HG, AWB, Cala, and other youngsters)
re: 409
I have. Twice, I think. However, in one case I ended up phoning the person to apologise for giving her a wrong number.*
*we swapped numbers but she promised to ring me as, for various reasons that was most convenient for both of us. I had just moved into a new shared house, and had misremembered my own number, etc, etc.
(Is someone going to tell Cala that 414 is in the wrong thread?)
416: With one caveat: recently divorced people are often crazy.
413: I have, several times. Including unmarried women under 25, so Ned's off too.
406: Try google, there's a band I think, and album, and I've seen it as a handle elsewhere.... probably a bunch of stuff.
416: With one caveat: recently divorced people are often crazy.
caveat or bonus?
With one caveat: recently divorced people are often crazy.
Perhaps, perhaps. But soon-to-be divorced people are just, wild, sexy things.
420: caveat --- you want to avoid the depressed, bitter ones. The crazy ones are better in bed, remember?
421: Of course they are.
361: thanks.
It was a total long shot thing that we basically knew would be denied. It's just that there's a pattern of The Law magisterially denying most of our motions without full briefing, & never, ever doing so for the equivalent motions from the other side. And there's not a damn thing we can do about it: we're actually lucky to have this judge, & the appellate court is worse.
a bit sad perhaps, is how strongly his romantic desires appear to be shaped in opposition to his mother and his family
oh but it will just heighten that delicious moment x yrs into a relationship when he realizes how deeply one of these intrepid, outdoorsy women resembles his mother in some totally unanticipated fashion.
349-350: Line breaks make everything sound like semi-profound free verse. This is actually one of my primary suspicions of free-form poetry. Here's your classic from upthread:
poetry though/
it bounces off of me./
Eliot? /
Go fuck yourself. /
Rilke? /
Well, Rilke does kind of get to me, but /
Dickinson? /
I couldn't be bothered. /
Fuck Frost, /
too. Etc.
Also, will I be booed off the thread if I say Fleur and Knecht should maybe get a room? I think of Unfogged as a place where bitter, damaged refugees from the romantic wars can carp and whine in peace. With only the occasional polite dissenting murmer from the happily married to give us hope that a happy ending is possible.
428: what if they started fighting?
427 is true. Any prose written in a remotely poetic or flowery way can be turned into free verse that is often more appealing than free verse which was intended to be free verse. When I had literary friends they were much impressed by a project I started that involved choosing a passage from each chapter of this book and using certain patterns of line breaks to turn it into poetry.
429: That might work, but I'd be torn. I don't really want to think that marriage is a depressing squabble-fest, because I'd have to give up some of my own romantic fantasies. On the other hand, those two are really rubbing my face in the fact that my life lacks a (we are assured) very beautiful and loving woman who quotes French poetry and makes witty blog comments. That's why I settled on "get a room" as a good compromise.
Also, will I be booed off the thread if I say Fleur and Knecht should maybe get a room? I think of Unfogged as a place where bitter, damaged refugees from the romantic wars can carp and whine in peace.
PGD, you clearly missed the run-up to our current state of comity.
PGD seems to be assuming that the purpose of Unfogged is to not be depressing. This is very much not the case.
427, 430. Don't forget this. The presence of free verse in our midst has been noted long ago.
408: I'm on it. Will report back shortly.
I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but I have an interjection to make about phone numbers.
On a day or night when I'm out and about and looking kinda pretty and receptive to strangers, I can, if I want, collect a handful of business cards. (These things happen all at once or not at all.) They all get stacked up in my bedroom where they sit for about a week before I throw them out. If somebody asks ME for a phone number or email, if I'm interested at all, I'll say yes, and give them the real one. And then, by and large, I'll expect to hear from them. If I'm not really interested in the guy, I'll demur---"no, I don't feel comfortable doing that; why don't you give me yours?"---and the guy knows he's basically lost, and it's all over.
Anyway, that's how I deal with that part. Other women may see it differently, and I do remember that when I was *much* younger (ie inexperienced about sex and living with my parents), I handled a couple of encounters rather poorly.
AHHH! Please believe the warnings about self-described poets are meant in earnest, ninjaphilosopher. I quite like poetry itself, but a poet REALLY fucked up my life there for a little while.
As for this---
269: Also my brother is a composer so I have quite a bit of experience with wacky artsy types.
I am now dating a composer. He is freakish, of course, but HE IS A MODEL OF SANITY AND RESPONSIBILITY COMPARED TO THE GODAMNED POET.
So where's Ogged? Having hot sandy sex or in jail?
In defense of the poets, not that I date them, but one of my dear friends in college was an MFA poetry student, and she hooked up with this other MFA poetry guy, and they are both delightful. Not overly dramatic or crazy, just like to sit around and read books, play with their dog, and shoot the shit and watch BtVS. They're married now. Lovely people, really.
I also roomed my first year of law school with another college friend, who was getting his PhD in poetry. Great guy, normal-ish and very nice.
So they're not all trouble. Granted, I didn't date any of these people, but still.
My mother used to write poems, fairly good sestinas even. I think she might even have referred to herself as a poet once. Enough said.
I really think that you need to be a Seamus Heaney or Ted Hughes before you have a right to call yourself a poet. (Larkin obviously too.) The current Britsh Poet Laureate Andrew Motion is such crap that he shouldn't be allowed to call himself a poet, even though it's in his job title.
434: OFE, the first one is quite believable as poetry. I can read it aloud and temporarily forget the voice of the man who spoke the words. It has meaning beyond its author's intention. Really, it's the best of the bunch, although all of them are amusing.
Getting a Ph.D in writing poetry is a new one for me. Most of the poets I've known got MFAs and then attempted to use their MFAs to get a gig teaching other aspiring MFAs.
Jackmormon gets business cards by going out carrying a bowl with a sign that says "Win a Free Lunch."
443: re 434, when I first heard that bit being talked about, I hadn't heard him say it, just read a transcript somewhere. I remember wondering if some script writer was just fucking with us, and then wondering if so, were they a frustrated poet?
443: I really think that you need to be a Seamus Heaney or Ted Hughes before you have a right to call yourself a poet
Okay, that's a bit much even for me. I'll settle for a person having published something, where self-publishing or publishing with a friend's basement press does not count.
444: Getting a Ph.D in writing poetry is a new one for me.
Few universities offer them. A big deterrent would be counting the number of notable writers who have come out of such programmes (thus far, AFAICT, zero).
Wrongshore's Xmas is back up.
we apologize for delayed merry
447; Okay, it was a bit of hyperbole. But I ask you: Have you read any of Anrew Motion's stuff? Ugh.
434/443/446: The funny thing is that my dad had made very similar comments years before Rumsfeld. Keeping in mind that there are things you don't know that you don't know is actually a decent tool for keeping humble day to day. That is, when it's not a stand-in for "you can't blame us for anything, ever."
446: I can't play sound now, but search YouTube for 'rumsfeld knowns' - I'm pretty sure it's there.
449: Yeah, Andrew Motion isn't even the half of it. I believe I've linked to Russell Edson here before...
As disciple, if one can be a disciple having followed the precepts and teachings prior to exposure to them, of Master Emerson, can I express a general, affable, beneficent, complacent, and ultimately unhopeful goodwill towards the endeavours of Messrs Ogged and ninjaphilosopher (10/1 and 3/2 against respectively)?
Moving on, and making no claim to anything, but frankly admitting that I have committed poetry - That there were a deity to preserve me!
Really, what happened to the various forensic sensibilities around here? Like/Don't Like - all poetry, everywhere and at everytime? It's a human activity, so there's going to be a little variation here you know? Some gives me goosebumps, some gives me hives, most is most, and so, not "excellent".
Oh, and it is necessary to hear poetry, but it is best heard by reading with the ear.
Involve a real live poet and things can as easily go good, as bad, as indifferent. While for actors reading poetry, my experience is that there is a far, far better than evens chance that they'll suck - exposure to Poetry Please generally results in sadistic fantasies (no sex, just good ole violence) at the very least of practical instruction in putting the stress just where it bloody well ought to be.
Then again, Laurence Olivier gave a beautiful reading of Lay your sleeping head, followed by frankly admitting that he thought it non-sense; so, spectra.
And, while it's too late, it should still be said:
To Wystan Hugh Auden, Thank you.
I was going to put in an Ezra Pound poem a boyfriend once sent me, but I'm not ready for anyone to mock it, I still kind of cherish it.
While for actors reading poetry, my experience is that there is a far, far better than evens chance that they'll suck
True, unfortunately.
What? Oh weird, I wanted to link to this poem , and look what turns up.
It's Unfogged all the way down.
I'm Unfogged all the way down?
No, no, that's not right. I censor my naughty bits.
(With boxes.)
(Blurry, blurry boxes.)
