Start your own band that sucks even more.

Ask her for a blowjob. Midway through, say "Hey! This reminds me of your band!"

Does her bass playing suck, or just the band in general? Maybe you can still find something to compliment. She might be a diamond in the rough.

Dude, when compared to your blog, her band rocks.

Has she criticized your stroke?

For what it's worth, she may well know this. They may be having fun anyway. And they may be much better live ...

I knew a drummer who typically played in 2-4 bands at a time. Sometimes he'd tell me about a new band, I'd ask how they were, he'd say `ah, they suck. they'll get better. it's a gig'. He just loved playing.

Every band[*] I've ever played in sucked, but it was fun[**].

[*] very, very loosely defined
[**] by fun, I mean an amazingly effective way to get laid, of course

"Is that Freedom Rock? Turn it up!"

"It's not really my kind of music. I prefer Motorhead. Lemmy rules!" [Alter as necessary.]

"The singer's voice isn't my taste. I liked the rhythm section, though."

I'd just tell her. Make it a thing! Fun for everyone. Also, blog it.

an amazingly effective way to get laid, of course

Interesting...

Wasn't there a relatively recent novel that deals with this question?

CUT TO teo onstage at the local megachurch, peering doubtfully at his bass

teo to band: "Are you sure this is going to work, guys? I mean, I'm jewish."

doughy, thirty-something lead singer: "Sure as I kicked horse this morning."

6 is right, of course, but absent her volunteering the "we suck" attitude, I think this qualifies as a must-lie situation.

Let's not stand in the way of a perfectly fine auto-cockblock, folks.

Chick bass players whose bands suck just lie there like Real Dolls. Except that afterwards they tend to be needy and clingy too, and litigious at times. All musicians know this.

I could tell you a thing or two about Tina Weymouth. And not just about her sister-in-law screwing Alexander Cockburn and George Will one right after the other.

Unless you want to be honest about how much her band sucks, ogged, I think a relationship is impossible. Perhaps you could still get laid, though.

13: John, are you talking about the Tina Weymouth and the Talking Heads?

I mean....I don't think they sucked, but you probably do.

Does her bass playing suck or just the band as a whole?

Unless you want to be honest about how much her band sucks, ogged, I think a relationship is impossible.

Don't forget to point out any other imperfections that you might seen in her as well. That goes over really well in first dates.

I can't see it as a problem. The possible issues seem to be:

(1) You won't date people who aren't good musicians.

This seems unlikely, given that you've never mentioned it as a standard.

(2) You won't date people who play music despite being rotten musicians.

Why would that be a problem? Presumably she's doing it for fun -- I do all sorts of things for fun that I'm not professionally adept at, IYKWIM.

(3) It's not the being a rotten musician that's a problem, it's the being so undiscerning that she doesn't know she's a rotten musician.

This one I can almost see, but how do you know she's undiscerning rather than simply having fun being lousy? And is being undiscerning about one's bass skills such a huge sin?

16 was written before seeing 14. I swear.

Only chick bass player I could think of off the top of my head. For the sake of the joke, the Talking Heads suck.

How about that Lally Weymouth, though? The very face of the media today.

19: the issues would be: (1) does he have to go to shows? (2) does he have to pretend to like the band? (3) is her taste in music otherwise shitty? (4) will she inflict shitty music on him basically constantly?

19-1: Effective auto-cockblocking requires the constant invention of new dealbreakers.

Sifu gets it right. I don't care if she can't worth a damn; it's cool that she enjoys it, but....

22.4: Don't both sides of most relationships do this most of the time? I had to listen to fucking Ceca for a while, for example.

"Can't play worth a damn."

"Uh, I'd check out your band, but I really only listen to Norwegian folk music sung by medievalists. Do you do any of that kind of stuff?"

Unf just posted a picture and then it disappeared? Or am I hallucinating?

It's really hard to be with people who make bad art. Sometimes, it's really hard even to be friends with people who make terrible art. I've spent countless evenings on shitty Brooklyn backstreets making polite conversation about one fucked up naked performance piece after the next. Presumably this is even more difficult when it's not just a pal.
But then of course, as lots of folks have noted, her relationship to her band may not be a defining one and it could just be great fun. What kind of band? Please? Tell us!

Did he? I've been waiting for that. He's just trying to re-learn the controls, probably.

Disappearing baby heads! I knew this day would come.

21: for shame, John. Kim Deal, Kim Gordon, Carol Kaye...

9: You have no idea.

Also, I wanted to be able to segue over to Lally.

the issues would be: (1) does he have to go to shows? (2) does he have to pretend to like the band?...

Isn't the answer to both of those obviously "no"? I just figure that reasonable people know that you can't expect anyone to share your taste in music.

If she wants ogged to go to shows even after ogged makes it known that he isn't a fan of the band then . . . that's it's own issue, but why should ogged be obligated to pretend to like the band?

It's really hard to be with people who make bad art. and don't know that it's bad art.

Ogged's just manifesting his doubts in her ability to perform the rhythm method. Dude: don't; it is so not an effective form of birth control.

why should ogged be obligated to pretend to like the band?

Just how many robots comment here, anyway? Raise hands!

Which is why I think he should tell her right off the bat he doesn't like the band. Just cheerfully tell her it does nothing for you. Or, stylishly, tell her the band is fucking awful, but be charming about it.

That's how I'd go.

The Name of This Band is Talking Heads, people. If you're going to make absurd 80s references at least get them right, please.

Yeah, I mean, it all depends on whether she thinks the band is like the awesomest thing ever, or she just having fun with her friends. Also, she might be good and be in a shitty band, and she might not care that it sucks. Of course, if she thought it was no good, why did she tell you about them? When I was in college I was in a shitty band (which I think w-lfs-n managed to get the name out of me once), and I would not have brought it up to people I was interested in dating.

Go out with her! Find out whether she's cool or not! If you date her, you can go to a show, and say "your bass playing is good, but I'm not really into the music." If she's not cool with that, then whatev.

ogged, you spend wayyyyy too much time thinking for hours and hours about all these overly complicated things about dating someone, and eventually talk yourself out of it. Stop doing that.

how do I address the "Hey babe, your band totally sucks!" problem?

Just say they're not to your taste. I bet pretty much everyone here in a long term relationship can point to stuff their SO likes that they find atrocious, whether it be a piece of art, a book, a CD, tv show, etc. Big deal. Look for the true redeeming qualities, like a willingness to write a letter to the school paper telling everyone that you get laid.

32: You know, I have no idea, and I've been in a band for three years now. I realize this is probably due to the fact that between the wife and the girlfriend, I only played one show where I could have conscionably taken home a groupie, but I'm still bitter. Why are there no bras and room keys flung at Wrongshore?

35: SB -- yes, exactly. A useful addendum.

Also, you know what? People who are in bands are used to having others not like their music that much. It's pretty common.

making polite conversation about one fucked up naked performance piece after the next

Aka Unfogged comments, except for the "polite" part.

19: The issue is ogged likes to think of himself as a snob, and therefore someone too discerning to date anyone who falls into the categories you mention, as compensation for the fact that he has no taste.

I'll call those motherfuckers what I want to call them.

No, you will not be told where their myspace page is

Okay, that seems prudent. But tell us this: is there a rock sax or not? That's really all that matters.

I had been married for a couple years before my wife said anything nice about the band I was in when we first met.

Of course, my band really did suck.

So are you going to tell us stories about Tina Weymouth or what?

The true underlying issue here is how this chick perceives herself. If she is A Musician, and takes herself too seriously, the relationship is doomed. The quality of the band is irrelevant.

People who are in bands are used to having others not like their music that much. It's pretty common.

People who are in bands, like people who write short stories or poems, build furniture, draw comics or make suits of armor in their spare time, tend to want the people who claim to like or love them to say positive things about their work.

This is not my beautiful blog.

48: Laura Logic rocked the punk rock saxophone. That was pretty cool.

Sometimes I feel that we get hung up on the question of whether Ogged is doomed when we could be constructing an elaborate and precise taxonomy of the ways in which Ogged is doomed.

Thing is, it is hard for a lot of people (including me) to pursue a project for a while without becoming invested in it. You wind up saying things like "I know we're all still learning, but that one song we do, that was pretty good, right?"

If they've gone far enough to put up a myspace page, there will be a limit to the number of bad things you can say about her band without hurting her feelings.

Anyway, she probably set the whole thing up as a test. She wants to know whether you have enough taste to recognize that the band sucks, enough understanding of her very being to recognize that it's all in fun, enough balls to bring it up, and enough savoir faire to tell her it sucks in a way that communicates that you're in on the joke and think that it, and she, are wonderful. Good luck!

Also, you know what? People who are in bands are used to having others not like their music that much. It's pretty common.

Right. Musicians just love to date non-musicians who think their music sucks.

Being fundamentally indifferent to music is a good way to avoid problems like this.

I realize this is probably due to the fact that between the wife and the girlfriend

I think you might have to work it just a little harder than that. To be honest, my experience is old and skews hard to a) very noisy and b) pretty young.

True story: long haired funny looking gangly 17 year old me walking with ridiculously hot girl on my arm, 18, dressed to kill at 30 paces. We passed a couple of 20-something chets coming out of a club, so the one says to his friend: what the hell is *she* doing with that? She stops, turns, slowly looks them up an down and says: he's a guitar player, you're yet another preppy loser. Turns around and we keep walking. For the next three blocks I was waiting to get jumped from behind.

52: Yeah, but unless it's like, their whole profession, I think it's usually not a total fucking disaster if the person doesn't. Unless they are like "god your music sucks and it grates the ears. It's utter fucking shit."

I mean, think about it, ogged. What if you dated someone who was like "you know, Unfogged isn't that great. I like your writing, but the other posters and commenters bore me and I find them annoying." Would that be a deal-breaker? I think not.

Ogged is trolling. He would never date an age-appropriate lifeguard.

No, I just couldn't. Tina treated me horribly, but I just feel sorry for her now.

Dumped the surfer already, ogged?

56: Knowing you kind of suck doesn't mean you want to hear it all the time. Doesn't mean you want your boy/girlfriend to blow smoke up your ass, either.

60:

Your sister sounds great.

58: But this is pre-supposing that she conceives of herself as a "musician". One can be in a band without being a "musician".

Other important component: is she writing the songs? If yes, then yeah, you're fucked. If not, you can probably finesse it.

Yeah, but unless it's like, their whole profession, I think it's usually not a total fucking disaster if the person doesn't.

You're right. No one invests more of him- or herself in a nights-and-weekends novel-writing, watercolors or D&D miniature painting than a day job. What was I thinking?

My question for you, my dear Mineshaft, is this: assuming that I'm willing to overlook the fact that this woman is clearly more fun and with-it than I am, how do I address the "Hey babe, your band totally sucks!" problem? Hmmm?

You have a number of equally good choices.
1. Call the Iranian lawyer while the band is performing or rehearsing.
2. Call the surfer chick with crow's feet while the band is performing or rehearsing.
3. Choose not to overlook the fact that this woman is more fun and with-it than you. You should only be dating inept, frumpy losers.
4. Passive-aggressively hide your dislike for her music until a few months or years into a relationship and use it as ammunition when you have a major fight. It'll be so much sweeter to get "Hey babe, your band totally sucks!" off your chest after it's been festering for a while.

60 is an awesome story. I suppose my high school years had a lot of guitar-fueled mackin'. Oh well. Now that I'm an unsexable codger, I suppose I should work on having my band not suck.

66: Ha!

Offer to get her a record deal with your cousin ar [some plausible record company with lots and lots of $$].

I would just like to have it established that I am the authority on this matter. Any other women here who have been in shitty bands?

61: It's a huge difference between `has a band on the side' and `trying to make a living at it'.

I know tons of people who play music on the side, often their quite philisophical about the bands shortcomings. `Not bad for a band that never practices', that sort of thing. I've had other musicians comment about pros: `it's amazing how good even the bad ones are. Guess that comes from practicing more than once a month ...' that sort of thing.

66: nice!

68 just falls into the overinvested in bad art thing, i think.

You're right. No one invests more of him- or herself in a nights-and-weekends novel-writing, watercolors or D&D miniature painting than a day job. What was I thinking?

You know what I meant by "whole profession" was not "day job", but "substantial part of time and energy and self-aspiration." Someone could work a day job and conceive of themselves as a musician, or play gigs at night and conceive of themselves as a computer programmer. Or whatever.

73: Not me. Not unless my one-off 8th-grade performance (with two other little girls) of our punk rock protest song "They Made Us Stand in Single File" counts.

30: Um, WTF? Is Unf going through a slow but inspiring recovery from a major head trauma or something?

35: SB -- yes, exactly. A useful addendum.

Pardon?

80: we have a name collision in short form

Other important component: is she writing the songs? If yes, then yeah, you're fucked. If not, you can probably finesse it.

This seems right.

80: Oh, whoops.

It's a negative, sure, but not enough to squelch the whole thing. (compare: will I have to read his blog? will I have to interact with the deviants and lunatics who comment there?) Also, she's the bass player and thus cannot (unless this is an unusual case) be held responsible for the creative vision.

My advice: go on some low pressure/high interaction escapade together (shopping for dinner followed by dinner, e.g.) and see where it goes.

I don't get it: Do the unfogged masterminds keep their site a secret, even from their lovers (either potential or actual)? I can see this blog, and facebook, acting in collusion to destroy otherwise good relationships.
(Scene, a year or two in the future:)

Bass playing lover: "You told the whole internet world, all your friends that my band SUCKS!??? How could you do that?"

Ogged: "I was trying to be honest in a non-judgemental, sensitive way."

BPL: "yeah, so you tell everyone, even the lurkers that my band sucks, and that I'm not talented???"

Ogged: "I didn't mean it that way, honestly!"

BPL "and then you wrote that the women you meet don't have 'mental -whateverness!!! What the fuck are you saying?"

Ogged: "No, no, that's not what I meant. And I wrote the mental whateverness post before I met you. Plus, you have to read the comments for nuance."

BPL: "Yeah, like I'm going to sit here for the rest of my life reading thousands of comments just so I understand the context of your insensitivity? Yeah, let me start doing that right now."

Ogged: (remembering the off-coloured jokes and such posted by the commenters) "No, wait! perhaps the best thing is for you NOT to read the comments..."

(Fade out)

Posts such as these can only spell disaster. Unless your computer is in a hidden cave beneath your home which you can only access by way of a maze-like system of hidden passages.

85: Does the word auto-cockblocking mean nothing to you?

Posts such as these can only spell disaster

You've got it all wrong. Posts such as these allow the possibility of a cockblock at some undetermined future moment. Exploring the permutations of auto-cockblockery is part of the genius of the blog.

Well, fuck me. Again, I blame my children.

Or, Ogged could be offering up his 'love and happiness in a relationship' potential as a sacrificial lamb in order to keep us pecking away gleefully at his auto-cockblockery. Awwww, thanks Ogged.

Is this Myspace page we are not allowed to see indicative of a 'we know we suck, but this is fun' mindset or a 'we are so awesome to be in a band you will now listen to our amazing single' followed by a cheap ripoff of Freebird with profanity directed at the listener?

Because in the first instance it's just a silly hobby like bowling, and in the second instance no one should date them at all ever.

Also, how do you know she's more fun and with-it than you are? Just because she's in a (bad) band? Then all the fourteen year old boys in the world are more fun and with-it than the rest of us and there is no hope for anyone.

There are different kinds of suckage, when it comes to music. Is this a case of:

-Technical incompetence: that is, they don't accomplish what they set out to do because they lack the skill. Or:
-Poor taste: they intend to sound like, say, abba, and they do. Or:
-Pretension? They shoot for deep or innovative, and they fail.

Or is it some combination? But I guess in each case, I'd go with the consensus here and say that the key thing that matters is the amount of self-delusion by your musician.

Pretension and self-delusion are probably the worst combination, but that said, I've known folks in that category who made up for it with other attributes.

You know, if she's doing this as a profession, it's possible that she's happily decided to sell out and play crappy music that gets gigs, rather than trying to play great music no one will listen to.

Which seems sort of in line with your values, no?

As has already been mentioned, she may well know the band aren't great but be having fun with it anyway.

Being in a band is fun. Unfortunately, the one band where I was the 'main' guy and wrote all the songs, sucked badly [admittedly I was 17] and the band where someone else wrote all the songs and I was a hired hand were pretty good. I think there was a lesson in that. Even more unfortunately, a couple of people I knew were in bands that really didn't suck and went on to become well known. That sucked even more.

the one band where I was the 'main' guy and wrote all the songs, sucked badly

See? And who wouldn't want to date ttaM?

If she's in music school this may just be a way to keep working or to get her name out there. Professional instrumentalists can't afford to have too much taste. Especially bassists.

Also, if she's a music student who's only played bass for 6 months, it may be that she's switching over from guitar rather than starting from scratch.

The question isn't who wouldn't want to date ttaM, it's who would want to date someone who sucks badly.

This guy, apparently.

97: And thus full circle--that comment inspired 2 above.

ourobouros

Maybe she's just in a band to get laid?

they intend to sound like, say, abba, and they do

This would be pretty cool in my book.

It can be difficult to be involved with an artist of any sort unless you're one yourself. I've done it twice for years each time. The first, a musician, yes, it was preferred that I go to all gigs, and once I stopped doing that (boredom, mostly), the distance between us grew.

In the second case, a visual artist whose work I liked quite a bit, well, since I'm not one myself, I still had trouble maintaining the attention and enthusiasm he wished me to have.

But none of this is about artists particularly: I register it as a failure in shared interests. I'd certainly date an artist, but personally, if there's not a solid base informing endless conversation over time, it's not going to wind up long-term. Your mileage may vary.

Wongshore is baiting us. Pay him no mind. The bouncer will feed him to the pigs.

Wongshore is baiting us.

With some very low-hanging bait indeed.

Not to rag on O, and his Seinfeldian schtick -- having done so on the other thread -- but one think that strikes me about this discussion is the static assessment of what is very likely to be a pretty dynamic situation. Musicians get better, including with exposure to other types of music. One wouldn't want to lead with constructive criticism, of course, but the idea that this woman is going to be in this band over even a modest term, and that they'll continue to suck, assumes too much, and too little about the influence of the romantic partner.

You can't change people in the way you set out to change them, as we all know, but change them in some way you surely will.

I didn't know about the band. And is this going to be on the final? I only signed up for Ogged's "Intro to Dating in the Post-Postmodern World" because everyone told me it was an easy "A". But what with the Iranian lawyer, the weathered surfer, and the lifeguard/bass player, the reading load for this course is a lot heavier than I had been led to expect.

Next week we get the construction worker and the Indian chief.

the weathered surfer

She actually looks really young; it's just that her hands and the corners of her eyes are weathered, for extra cuteness. But of course she's not going to call and I'll be heartbroken and take it out on all of you.

You should probably go over to her place and explain that you really weren't trying to stalk her. Maybe take flowers and a poem that you wrote for her.

If you slip the lock on her door with a credit card, you can have the flowers set up on her table for when she gets home.

I'll be heartbroken and take it out on all of you
So, more swimming posts, then?

That's really thinking like a stalker, LB.

I shouldn't have said "weathered." I apologize.

I never get calls from unfamiliar numbers. Maybe a few times a year. Today: three times. Not funny.

"Leathery-faced" would have been better than "weathered", IA.

Weathery-faced. Like with hail.

I was the first one to say "weathered", in the other thread. Technically I said "the more weathered woman".

It's a surprisingly insulting word, isn't it?!

The weathereffaced my fine facial features.

I should have said "sun-kissed."

Hoodooed.

"But of course she's not going to call and I'll be heartbroken relieved the universe is still working in predictable ways"

Fixed.

I had to listen to fucking Ceca for a while, for example.

Flippanter was dating a Bosnian Serb paramilitary thug? Or just someone who likes Bosnian Serb paramilitary thugs?

I'm pretty sure describing her as "attractive" is ogged's way of saying "I wouldn't throw rocks at her, but..."

A pretty weak cockblock if you ask me. We can be relatively certain that you crested with the mile high auto-block.