It's really 10:30 PM EST on a Tuesday? Fuck that noise.
She'll bring a ticking bomb, to prove he's inexperienced at defusing ticking bombs.
"When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad, 'Where's the beef?'"
That'll kill.
"When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad, 'Say, Buckwheat, salesgenie.com is better than Mecca!'"
Oh, I guess that's just when C-SPAN starts playing it.
Where to watch for free?
"I'm really honored to be sharing this stage with a naive, inexperienced Muslim from Somalia!"
How about audio-only? My cable is choking.
Although I'm having awful buffering problems. CNN was way better.
Man, msnbc's video sucks hard. this is ridiculous. If CNN can give a video feed without problems, there's absolutely no reason that MSNBC shouldn't be able to.
I'm watching Ninja Warrior and pretending it's being contested by the candidates. Gobama! Climb that overhanging ledge! Leap across that chasm!
Damn. I was hoping somebody here was going to have a super idea for how to stream the debate without all the goddamn stuttering.
Msnbc's streaming video seems to be working pretty well for me.
The SNL reference proves that Clinton is humorless.
I wish Obama had come out in a turban.
Are most people now watching on the off chance that there's a car crash?
16: I'm now watching these comments so that if anything happens I can check it out on YouTube later.
I'm still undecided for my primary, but if Obama had followed the advice in 15, he would have locked my vote for sure.
I can't bear it. It's lose-lose for me. I want Obama to win it all, so I don't want to see him flub the debate. But if HRC doesn't win, it may be her last debate. And that makes me sad, as I still like her.
Whew. wkyc.com is so, so much better (especially now that I've turned off the damn page with the non-stop popping chat).
ARG the msnbc site is not fast enough to play the video without it 'buffering' every 3 seconds
21 - The popping chat was incredibly horrible.
Someone appeared to type "Go HILLARY!!!!! YOU GO GIRL!!!!!" every few seconds.
15 minutes in and she gets the crowd to groan a la the "xerox" comment -- "Maybe we should get Senator Obama a pillow...." That, plus the attack on the moderators that is totally inside baseball.... I love it!
ok the local-pandering is much more annoying this time around.
Oh man I don't think Obama should have gone there with that comment about woman drivers.
Obama is doing a very nice job countering Hillary on foreign policy. "Once you've driven the bus into the ditch, there are only a few ways to get the bus out of the ditch."
That question from Russert was the stupidest question ever.
I heard Obama advocated driving a bus into Hillary.
I heard Obama advocated driving a bus into Hillary.
Actually it was "blowing up a bus with Hillary and 20 innocent school children on it."
"What if the the world was totally different, woudl you support a policy that is crazy in the real world?"
"Obama hasn't held committee hearings with regard to NATO in Afghanistan!"
Oh, SNAP.
Can't find the right video. Way to go NBC. You rock.
Try this direct link.
mms://a261.l2233650591.c22336.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/261/22336/v0001/reflector:50591
Bringing up your biggest failure, a failure that deeply harmed the people of Ohio and the nation, is a good idea exactly how, Hillary?
Wow, Obama is wrecking her on healthcare.
it really does seem that they refuse to give hilary equal time. It makes her sound more and more desperate.
I have to remind myself how much I dislike Hillary.
What are we supposed to learn from HRC's tax return again?
what was russert referring to? it sounds like he was just lying about what obama said while accusing obama of lying.
If I ever happen upon Tim Russert on the street, I will punch him in the nose. I will punch him hard. With malice in my heart. Even if it's a nice day.
I'm surprised he didn't emphasize the fact that John McCain's trying to get around the Federal Financing rules. That seems like the real clincher once he said that he really promised to work with the Republican nominee to make sure they're both working within the same system.
update: HillaryClinton.com plug!
even tim and brian can't help but show their sheer dislike for her.
HillaryClinton.com plug!
Yeah, pretty lame.
Farrakhan question!
Race-baiting jackass!
Sista Souljah moment in progress...
Update: I will seek out Tim Russert and punch him in the nose.
Wow. Russert is really pushing this hard.
He'll keep mentioning any religious person who's said good things about Obama and bad things about Jews for the next hour.
Farrakhan stuff continues! "How will you keep the stink of Farrakhan off you! The Jews won't like it!"
Russert is so incredibly horrible.
Also, hasn't this stopped being debate, and just become two parallel Meet the Press interviews?
Ezra wrote that Omar Little should be VP. I think Omar should settle for moderating a debate.
you can watch the msnbc debate streaming at this link to a local affiliate. MSNBC's servers must be overloaded...
http://www.wkyc.com/video/news/breaking
I think Omar should settle for moderating a debate.
I'd pay cash money to see that.
Debate rule for '08, apparently: When Farrakhan is mentioned, drink three fingers.
Surely someone can dig up a former KKK guy who supported Hillary Clinton or something. There's no way that her support is entirely clean of famous crazies.
Obama should point out the the obvious grounds for Black/Jew unity. The Fro.
Russert really is a dick. I feel bad for Clinton--her campaign is so crappy.
Oh Christ, is Hillary saying "I reject anti-Semites' support and he wouldn't"? Is there a difference between denouncing someone and rejecting their support?
Wow, just as I was typing that last sentence, she said "there is a difference between denouncing and rejecting."
Oh Hillary, that "me too" moment was weak. "Let me tell you about the time I didn't cozy up to anti semites".
Does she think she just won a point there?
"I reject and denounce."
Great moment in politics right there.
Did WKYC just switch to a CCTV somewhere?
Wow. I thought Clinton was going to go somewhere classy, calling out Russert for being a tool. But no, it turned out to be self-promoting jerkwadism.
72: And deject and renounce! That's right, I make those people sad!
Some accidentally live camera in the studio?
They cut out for the commercials. It'll come back.
Who are these people in blue shirts?
Who are these people in blue shirts?
Irish fascists.
They don't look like Irish fascists.
Last commercial break they just went to a test pattern. Looks like they're setting up in the lobby for some sort of post-debate chat, probably between the local anchor and political analyst.
the local anchor and political analyst
Tim Russert is a political analyst, and he could be used as an anchor.
Thanks for the live-blogging, folks. I'm bereft with no cable TV and phone-only web access.
4 is very funny.
Slick answer to the Ted Kennedy question. That boy's good.
Obama: "The proof is in the pudding."
The last several CNN debates have been so much better than this one. This is hardly a debate.
Now they're supposed to denounce someone who isn't even in power yet?
That boy's good.
Racist. It was an excellent answer, though.
95: No, no, reject and denounce!
Do you reject Farrakhan and all his empty promises?
During the next commercial break, I recommend clicking on the link in 70.
And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, goddammit.
Oh, Jesus Christ, another ridiculous hypothetical
And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, goddammit.
Therefore by syllogism with teh other thread...the proof of the pudding ain't cheatin'.
Do you renounce Farrakhan and all his works?
I denounce the Farrakhans to heaven...and to hell.
Now they're supposed to denounce someone who isn't even in power yet
Reject and denounce. And yes, someone who isn't in power, like you. I denounce you, Standpipe.
OH LORD WHAT A WASTE OF TIME
"Senator Obama, if you believed Senator McCain were an Annunaki lizard, would you refuse to debate him? If so, would that be out of cowardice or anti-Semitism?"
Half-point to Hillary for essentially saying "what the fuck is up with your ridiculous Russia question?"
Fine, pwned. Anyway, did she just say about the Iraq war what I thought she said?
He was a Constitutional Law Senior Lecturer, not a Constitutional Law Professor.
Damn, the generous praise for Hillary really makes Obama look good. Like they will be friends when this is all over.
113: Tell Russert! He can NAIL Obama next January.
113: The adjunct made good! There is hope!
There's a debate? And mayhap the Last Debate? And me not having watched one debate this basketball primary season? With my critical Texan vote to decide the nomination all by myself?
Oh noes!
Governor Rick Perry called the other day. He wants to have my baby or something.
You know, I seriously like Clinton but between her campaign and the stuff she's saying in these debates, she seems schizophrenic, I swear.
You ain't no superdelegate, Bob.
between her campaign and the stuff she's saying in these debates, she seems schizophrenic, I swear.
The more generous part of me wants to believe that she's just totally not in control of her campaign. I didn't want to say that because I know it will get thrown in the "sexist backlash" pile, but I think it's a pretty reasonable supposition given how much she's paying those fucks to do their dirty work. When you've shelled out countless millions of dollars on campaign strategists, I'm guessing you give them pretty free rein.
"A mother said she had spent 3 million dollars on health care for her family..." Talk about exploitable.
Surely, surely Camp Clinton has something up their sleeve to rattle Obama. It's her last chance. What will it be???
Apparently, it was to insinuate that Obama would not double-dog denounce Louis Farrakhan.
121: I have no idea. Obviously she's got a say in what kinds of strategies they decide to use, and obviously her campaign and advisors are just incredibly shitty, man.
123: That wasn't even her, that was that dummy Russert that brought that up.
Am I the only one who found the "whatever" comment deeply embarrassing? Dude's the President of Russia. Shouldn't our President know what his name is?
"Medvedev" isn't a terribly difficult name to pronounce. Totally phonetic, no? Med-veh-dev?
He's not the President of Russia yet.
Not phonetic - more like myed-vyeh-dyev, if I understand correctly - but even if it were phonetic, Americans would have trouble with it.
127: Med-VYEH-dyef, more like. But close enough, especially for a people who call the current guy POOT'n.
Obammers Organize Tejas ...Kos, via commenter at MY's
128 - Yes, I suppose you're right. But saying "Med-veh-dev" is acceptable in English, I think.
i really enjoy how obama pronounces "Pakistan"
134: Me too. I also like how he says "Taliban." Tollybon!
Oh golly. He's a pretentious geek! One of us! One of us!
He's a pretentious geek! One of us!
Was there ever any doubt?
Zis vill be ze ... final debate for you, I em afraid.
I am glad to see someone already made the joke in 133.
Two things of which I was unaware: that the Internet in Russia has this LOLcats-level "Preved Medved" meme, and that Medvedev is my age. I'm not sure what to make of either.
140 gets it right.
LOL - so much better than "How do I shot web?".
OT: the ads on TalkingPointsMemo are often interesting/inexplicable.
I see there's one now which seeks to lead people to a website defaming the character of former Philadelphia mayor Frank Rizzo (1920-1991). Lolwut?
Not the debate about the debate, Sifu, the debate within the debate.
What's the opposite of "meta" anyway?
So who won the debate?
Russert, obviously. The US is now committed to a re-invasion of Iraq.
What's the opposite of "meta" anyway?
"youta"?
teo? himta guy dat gets it exactly right.
Fred: Maybe you can clarify something for me. Since I've been, you know, waiting for the fleet to show up, I've read a lot, and--
Ted: Really?
Fred: And one of the things that keeps popping up is this about "subtext." Plays, novels, songs: they all have a "subtext," which I take to mean a hidden message or import of some kind. So subtext we know. But what do you call the message or meaning that's right there on the surface, completely open and obvious? They never talk about that. What do you call what's above the subtext?
Ted: The text.
Fred: OK, that's right, but they never talk about that.
Thanks for the thread, guys. I slept through the debate.
Heh, so did I. Not that I had any intention of watching it anyway.
obama won on "sounds good to me" and "renounce vs. reject"
I just read the transcript. Obama's bit at the end, responding to Russert's "what does she have to do to prove herself a worthy nominee?'", saying "she doesn't, actually." was tops. Classy guy.
On a slightly debate-related note, can I just say that this Yglesias post, complete with a characteristically substance-free non-defense defense of a right-wing economic policy, represents everything that pisses me off about contemporary American liberalism? For extra frustration, read the commenters, who are so offended at Obama's badmouthing of NAFTA they consider it the low point of his campaign.
157: Well, he is dating a libertarian. Some of that is bound to rub off.
Well, he is dating a libertarian.
Sez who? I thought Sausagely's GF was a liberal education wonk.
Maybe I'm carrying outdated info. It was true!
158: Is she actually a libertarian? I thought she was just a DLCer. Either way, his flirtation with conservative economic policy goes back to his early blogging days, when he built his rep on being a "contrarian" (i.e., a liberal-bashing liberal). It doesn't come up as often these days, but it does come up. What irritates me is that when it does, there isn't even an argument for the right-wing policy in question; it's just assumed that the dirty hippies are crazy for caring about the environment, workers' rights, etc. and we can just move on to shaking our heads at how sad it is that anyone still listens to them.
I thought it was widely acknowledged that NAFTA had lead to some bad results.
162- Me, too. As Stras mentioned, it would have been nice to read how MY thinks NAFTA is perfectly defensible.
Everyone dates a libertarian at some point in DC. They're fun people!
I got a chuckle out of this Yglesias commenter:
Wow. One often forgets that the netroots is wealthy and aggressively economically centrist, but this thread is a good reminder. Thank god we're not the base.
Everyone dates a libertarian at some point in DC.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Look, there's nothing wrong with fooling around with a libertarian, but your mother and I want you to think more carefully before you decide to settle down with someone. You know how much your grandmother would be hurt if you didn't marry one of our own kind. And honestly, there is a lot to be said for staying in the tribe. It has worked for your mother and I.
You know, I've never "dated a libertarian," as the kids say. But, then, I'm a notorious prude.
I don't think I would ever date a libertarian, seeing as all 15 or so libertarians that I've met have been male. And mostly computer scientists.
Cryptic Ned is unwilling to let the invisible hand explore his sexuality.
170: If you'd read your Rand, Apo, you'd realize that Ned's consent before the fact isn't really an issue to be considered.
It was Matt who revealed to me that free trade was the Holy of Holies of the Democratic Party. (Oddly enough, it was the Holy of Holies of the Republican party, too, before Dubya. In their exit interviews both Bush and Clinton reported free trade as their greatest accomplishment.)
When Stiglitz defected after a few years of hands-on experience helping manage the Free Trade show (and he only defected half way) , Krugman and DeLong started to hem and haw a bit, but there weren't a lot more defectors, and after Jan. 2001 everyone could just bash Dubya.
A common response was to say Stiglitz's book really wasn't all that good, what was he so upset about, maybe he went a little soft in the head.
A lot of the things Krugman and DeLong have been saying qualifying their earlier free-trade advocacy were just truisms for anyone not blessed with high-level economic training. "A high tide raises many but not all boats", "Benefits and costs are never evenly distributed", "Generally better-off people are better equipped to take advantage of changes than worse-off people", "In large areas of the economy native-born American unskilled labor has the opposite of comparative disadvantage".
None of these facts is embarrassing to a conservative Republican or to a Libertarian, because they believe that the unproductive should be punished, but Krugman and DeLong were supposedly liberal Democrats.
The Clinton economists' plan balanced free trade with compensatory measures softening the blow to labor, but Clinton needed Republican votes to get his bills passed, since many Democrats wouldn't sign on. So he passed a Republican free trade bill that stripped out the compensatory measures.
DeLong has admitted something like this, but he has never said that the bill shouldn't have been passed. For DeLong and Krugman, a Republican bill was better than nothing.
I've never dated a libertarian. Except for the lefty-libertarian/libertarian-socialist kind, I usually want to punch them all in the mouth. One by one.
A gentleman never punches a lady in the mouth on the first date.
Yeah, dammit, the donkey punch comes from behind.
My fault, but let's not continue in this vein.
If I were dating a Libertarian, as per impossible given that I don't date and dislike Libertarians, I'd rely heavily on my second cousin once removed relationship to John Hospers, the first Libertarian Presidential candidate (1968).
Hospers was born in Orange City Iowa like my grandfather. Both were native speakers of Dutch. And contrary to Wiki, Orange City is not near Des Moines. Sioux Falls and Sioux City are the nearest places that a coastal elitist might possibly have heard of.
136: My reflex is to be depressed (in general and) at the fact that pronouncing words in a foreign language the way native speakers pronounce it is considered pretentious. Anti-intellectualism, it's unfortunate that knowing anything about foreign languages is a disadvantage, if merely knowing the local name for something is intellectual then the bar is set absurdly low, etc.
But you know, languages do have their own, correct, terms for foreign words. When we speak English, we pronounce the s at the end of "Paris." No one would ever bother saying "Mamlaka al-Arabiyya as-Suudiyya" when they're talking about Saudi Arabia. When I'm talking about Quebec, I pronounce it like a French person would -- but, well, I am in fact a pretentious geek.
And apparently Obama is too. So he's got my vote.
If Megan were a Libertarian, ttaM, you'd be picking your own teeth up off the sidewalk.
re: 179
Heheh. Now who is trolling?
178: I thought I was making a self-deprecating joke. I wrote "one of us!" for a reason.
Nobody pronounces Egypt "Misr" or Greece "Ellas" either, even though a lot of puns could come out of that.
"Alas, the foreign policy of Hellas is mostly dedicated toward getting the Macedonians to change the name of their nation".
"In Misr the misery index was stable this year, neither rising nor falling. But most Misrians remain miserable."
180: Trolling is the lifeblood of blogging. Oged, at least, understands this. If they had their way, the civil, responsible goo-goo bloggers would destroy the thing they love most. But they will not have their way.
http://unspeak.net/as-president-of-the-united-states/
Quite interesting. Re: the debate.
167: A female friend's parents were very far left - when I'd chide them for being Communists, they didn't argue with the characterization. When their daughter married a Republican, they were troubled, but ultimately were able to console themselves: "At least he's an atheist."
182: Oddly enough, no one calls Albania "Shqipërisë", either.
A Danish acquaintance once told me that Danes *hate* to hear English-speaking foreigners call their capital "CopenHAHgen", as this approximates the German pronunciation, and is actually further away from the real Danish pronunciation than is the typical English "CopenHAYgen".
178: Agreed, in that, sure, there are English names for a lot of countries, but the English name for Pakistan is Pakistan, and there is no separate English for Taliban. I dunno. The British are particularly awful about pronouncing everything in the Englishest way possible, IME. They don't "borrow" foreign words like Americans do; they steal them and violate them.
I try to pronounce things the right way, at least as an exercise for myself before going back to how everyone else pronounces them, but "Røyksopp" is too much for me. A dipththong consisting of two rounded non-English vowels? Ninja please.
re: 187
You're kidding, right? You're not seriously claiming that people speaking American English generally pronounce foreign names and place names more correctly than the average British English speaker?*
I'll remember that next time I hear someone talking about 'Glass-cow' or 'Eedin-borrow'.
* note, not claiming that British people have a particularly great record in this score either. It's a pot-kettle situation.
177: Weird--my wife's mother's family is from the Dutch community of northwestern Iowa (before moving to the Dutch communities of Western Michigan).
189: I think that AWB is just pointing out something that is noticeable to us Amurricans. The British pronunciation of things like valettt and hhhherb. Americans seem to have internalized some notion that the British ought to be "more correct" than we are, but somehow we have the more Frenchified pronunciation. And then there is the matter of the British "a," that Americans tend to think of as always being "ahhh," but then are confronted with semi-foreign words like pasta, where we think our pronunciation --pahstah-- will align with the British one, but find out that there the British actually say (I don't even know how to notate this) "paasta."
191: You mean like the American pronunciation of 'pastor' , only without the final -r sound?
The British pronunciation of things like valettt and hhhherb
I'd fight to the death to defend the idea that the American one is wrong, purely because the American pronunciation of 'herb' actually physically irritates me.*
* even though I know that the 'h' was generally silent even if the UK up until the 19th century.
The British aspire to more, oudemia. It's the smallness of American dreams that accounts for our pronunciation.
Wait. Brits pronounce "herb" like it's short for "Herbert"?
re: 196
Yes. Only without the rhotacised vowel in the middle that Americans use.
Well, the r wouldn't be so rhotic among regionally accented New Yorkers or Bostonians. Or Southerners, for that matter. And wouldn't that r be rather lushly intoned by certain flavors of Scots?
We are all brothers!
No, Chopper and I are cousins. Dutchcousins.
John Hospers is our Dutch Uncle.
re: 199
It's not a rhotacized vowel in scots english. The rhotacized vowel thing is quite 'American'. It's a trilled or flapped/tapped /r/ in scots english. English English would generally have no 'r' at all, of course.
200: Well, Chopper's wife and kids are Dutch cousins with Emerson, anyway. All my roots are about 200 years deep in southwestern Ohio.
I did not know that. I guess I thought it qualified as rhotic because it always seemed much r-ier to me. But I guess rhotic is more that flat errrr, which sounds very upper-mid-west to my eastern profligate ear.
I was thinking of the "a" difference the other day, when the BBC reporter covering the American primary elections was rather pleased with his new coinage "Barack-lash," but we (and he) say Bah-rock (like rock of ages) rather than Bah-rack (like rack of lamb).
Wait. Brits pronounce "herb" like it's short for "Herbert"?
Yes, but the British "Herbert". That is, it's pronounced "hub", with a longer vowel than the "hub" we are familiar with.
There are genuinely rhotic dialects in SW England, aren't there? All my reference books on this kind of thing are in my office, and I'm at home.
You know what is amusing? Have an American friend and a British friend who like to cook describe a recipe made with the herbs oregano and basil. Watch the glares.
re: 205
Yeah, I wasn't using 'rhotacized' in the sense of 'r-pronouncing'. People talk about dialects being rhotic, in the sense.
I was using it in the other phonological sense -- referring to a particular 'r-like' vowel colouring that you get in some dialects of English. Particularly American dialects. The 'r' and the 'e' in 'herb' aren't two separate phonemes in GenAm in the way they are in Scots English, for example.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~bras0708/VR0003.wav
Would be scottish.
203, 206: Weird, I heard the r sound all the time in herb during undergrad and from my family. What sort of regional or class accents do you mean by English English? I was mostly used to posh-as-hell accents with only slight regional lilts and the occasional Mancunian, Geordie or Estuary.
I think of "pasta" as one of the five things Canadians say differently from Americans.
Only five because one is "all words containing an accented syllable ending in -out", and another is "all words containing an accented syllable ending in -orr".
re: 211
The 'r' is often [almost always, in fact] silent after a vowel in RP and similar dialects. I'd bet it often wasn't there. Instead the vowel would be lengthened. It's one of those illusory things.
Back to the original thread topic, John Lewis just endorsed Obama!
William F. Buckley endorsed Obama by dying.
In fact, one problem that BrE speakers often have with their American accents is using a full /r/ where a rhoticized vowel is called for.
But in any case, I still thought there were some dialects of British English that include the rhoticized schwa, but I certainly could be misremembering -- probably even on account of the rhotic/rhoticized vowel difference.
re: 217
I think that's also true. Rural south-west, maybe?
That coincides with my misty memories.
187
178: Agreed, in that, sure, there are English names for a lot of countries, but the English name for Pakistan is Pakistan, and there is no separate English for Taliban.
There aren't different names, but there are different pronunciations, just like for "Paris" or "Quebec." I only know like 20 words in Arabic, but I'm pretty sure that a native speaker would pronounce "طالبان" ("Taliban" written in Arabic and Pashto, if the copy-pasting doesn't work) more like you have it in 135 than how I think most Americans say it.
