Oh, huzzah, Ogged. You will love it. The French Laundry. I can't answer for the sport coat.
Washing the sport coat in the shower is deprecated.
I've been to the French Laundry and it was indeed the best meal I've ever had. I'm really looking forward to going again, especially now that I can take my mother.
Washing the sport coat in the shower is deprecated.
More "common sense" that will be debunked in time by the Times.
Is this from way back when we were temporarily being nice to you? Damn, we got played.
(Kidding! Hope you have a nice time.)
Oh, this is excellent. Hope you and your mom have a great evening.
I missed a chapter. Did we kick you down some appreciation cheddar, or is there an in?
I missed a chapter.
Yeah, me too, but I can't bring myself to contribute now because I'm too consumed by envy.
We gave ogged some money as a sign of how much we appreciated his getting cancer.
Unfogged is like a Choose Your Own Adventure book: A missed chapter is a consequence of your own actions. Go back to the beginning and start again.
Also, "appreciation cheddar" is a google orphan. Good work, Wrongshore.
9: presumably this is all an elaborate scam to get our personal information; he's been kiting checks for several years now, and could afford manny dozens of meals at the French Laundry.
In other news: I bought a sportcoat before ogged did? This is deeply confusing to me.
Right? I own three at this point and I'm still on the shy side of 30.
Actually my sportcoat, which I dearly love, and wore to unfoggeDCon, is now in limbo at the lost & found of a restaurant in LA. I hope my designated representative gets it back soon, but either way I think I should buy another one.
Isn't a sportcoat the same thing as a suit coat, just without the pants?
Trying to shore up your grunge cred, Jesus. Sportcoat.
A sportcoat, also called a sport(s) coat, sport(s) jacket, or a blazer is a tailored coat for men. It is of the same cut as a suit coat, but is designed to be worn on its own and not as part of a suit. Styles therefore may be less restrictive. Compared to suit jackets, sturdier fabrics are used, such as woollen tweed.
I love the illustrative photo on the Wikipedia page.
Weren't some of us adamantly insisting recently that a sport coat was not the same thing as a blazer?
Also: "Today sportcoats are used as semi-formal or business formal wear and is the mainstream coat of choice in North America." Oh, is it now!
I think a blazer is a type of sportcoat.
A blazer isn't a sport coat, and a sport coat isn't a suit jacket, and a suit jacket isn't a blazer. This isn't difficult, Neddy m'boy.
Young Ben understands the power of confident assertion.
21: doesn't really put the "smart" into "smart casual", does it?
A blazer is sometimes considered a type of sportcoat, but differs in having a nautical origin.
Whatever. I'll just keep wearing a morning coat or tails.
Guys, you can't tell us to trust Wikipedia when it says a sport coat is not a suit jacket, and then tell us Wikipedia is wrong when it says a sport coat is a blazer.
Per Leo Green, the difference between a blazer and sports coat is subtle, but very real.
From a functionalist point of view, I suppose one might consider a blazer a type of sportcoat, in that it is suitable for wearing at (some) sport events. However, blazers and sportcoats proper differ in both cut and lineage. Further, there is distinctly more risk of looking twattish in a blazer.
That sentence in 19 had better be edited soon, then!
Even the thing cited in 31 doesn't say they differ in cut.
To be fair, Wikipedia only claims that sportcoats are sometimes called blazers.
Oooh I totally have a topical Ask The Mineshaft:
If one had a formal event to attend, which called for "black or white tie", how would one find something to rent that was not stupidly prom-like, and that fit correctly?
I'd love to do white tie if I could figure out how to pull it off, and I'd love to do something different with a tux (nehru collar? no tie? I dunno) that, again, didn't come off as childish. Thoughts?
Somehow I doubt that by "white tie" they actually mean white tie.
Blazers don't have a nautical origin. Aren't they called blazers because they were originally loudly striped with the colors of one's public school? The navy blazer for yachting was later.
I'm no expert in the finer points of men's tailoring, but the pockets and buttons, at the very least, are different.
"black or white tie" is not, as you might think, presenting the choice between black tie or white tie. That would be phrased "black tie or white tie". For an event described as "black or white tie", you need to wear a tie whose color changes depending on the angle at which you view it, so that it may be either black or white.
40: It was easier back when they were clear about these things. Is it that hard to say "hologram tie"?
Please please do not do a mandarin collar, I beg you, as a special favor to me.
42: done!
37: I think by "white tie" they mean "white tie formal" as in "actual formal" which, from what I know of it, which isn't much, did actually mean a white tie, yeah.
Somehow I doubt that by "white tie" they actually mean white tie.
If that's true, all the more reason to actually show up in white tie regalia. That'll show those parvenus to use terms they don't understand!
Somehow I doubt that by "white tie" they actually mean white tie.
Really? I think "white tie" is not a dress code that people toss about frivolously.
43: The requirements of white tie are compatible with the perfect outfit. Make it happen today!
36: Buy something, and justify the expense by wearing it frequently and inappropriately?
If you're going to rent, I'd pick up your nearest metropolitan phone book, look under Formal Wear, and compare ads for someone who looks like they're marketing to adults with an interest in clothes rather than prom night or weddings.
I'm pretty darn certain they are saying what they mean.
With evening wear, I think your best bet for doing something "different" is to think small. It's so traditionalist that tiny innovations are the only way to be elegant. Alternately, you might consider that the truly unusual thing to do under the circumstances is to strive to be utterly, scrupulously correct and perfectly turned out. Alas, such a project seems to me to be difficult to reconcile with renting. I forget where you live, though -- you might find someplace that rents fabulous vintage suits, or something of that sort.
Please please do not do a mandarin collar
I don't know, Sifu could be The One.
Sifu, it might be a typo for White tee.
50: yeah this is the problem I was having. I think looking really, genuinely, good, and owning it, would be spectacular. I just don't know if that's feasible. Rental vintage, hm.
The Wikipedia entry goes on to say that national dress is permissible at white tie events, so you could wear a kimono, kilt or lederhosen as well.
54: does a ninja outfit count as formal military dress?
"Why pay mall or Harvard Square prices?" is somehow extra endearing.
The Wikipedia entry on national dress says American s can wear Jeans, a Cowboy Hat, or Native American clothing.
The entry on Wales is entertaining.
Although I feel like they might be trying to trick me. Sheesh.
So how much is one of these bad boys to buy?
ME: Some people can pull off a blazer just fine. If you look really WASPy, or...
SNARKOUT: Or really black?
ME: Really WASPy, of whatever race.
SNARKOUT: You mean really preppy. You can't be WASPy and not white.
ME: Yes you can!
SNARKOUT: ¡Sí, se puede!
I think you really have to go with the national dress. "What do you mean, you can't let me in? I'm Chaman. This is the garb of my people."
"White Anglo-Saxon Protestant" does seem to stack the decks against you, rfts.
White people take "white" too literally.
And I'm forced to admit that Snark's use of "Si, se puede" as a sarcastic optimism-deflater/impossible-point-outer is perfect.
I know rfts says no Mandarin collars, but who doesn't want to look like this?
70: shouldn't that guy have a rapier with an elaborate guard? Something like this except flashier.
Is that what you're calling it these days.
62: I bought a tux coat at Keezer's when I was in grad school. As I recall, it was about 50 bucks. Maybe not even that much, because I didn't have much. That was 15 years ago, though....
Did Jackmormon ever tell us whether her honey liked what she bought for him there?
He liked it, but it would've had to be taken in like four inches around the waist, so he took it back and got a sweater. Which he likes. However, since my goal was to get him PANTS, I consider the outing a bit of a failure.
The easiest thing to do is not to go.
If I bought a floor-length dress for this shindig that wasn't even my idea, you'd better bet Sifu is on the hook.
A dress as long as the floor does sound like an imposition.
And what if there's a raised dance floor?
It is indeed. You should see her try to walk in it. I'm thinking a tailor could make some kind of a spinnaker from the excess fabric.
Depends on what floor.
Come on Ben, what would you have had me say? If I said 'ankle-length', you'd have said that ankles are not generally very long, and you thought white tie called for a more formal dress than that.
1. What is this, sliding scale formal? You don't say "black or white tie." White tie is white tie, period.
2. Everyone in this thread is a racist.
3. There is but one choice for Cap'n Sifu.
I wouldn't have you say anything.
Even "full-length" is open to the objection that, after all, no dress is shorter than it is.
But what would you have had her say?
84.1: I wonder if they mightn't have said White Tie if they thought they could get away with it. The theme for the evening is "Gilded Age".
Good thing it's not 'state decorations' and I'm not married:
Where "state decorations" are to be worn, they are on a bow pinned to the chest, and married women wear a tiara if they have one.
90: if you wear a tiara I'll give you a dollar.
The theme for the evening is "Gilded Age".
Well, in that case:
Alva Vanderbilt's 1883 costume ball was rumored to have cost $250,000 for costumes, catering, food, champagne, and decor, which included transforming the second-floor supper room into a tropical forest luxuriating with potted palms and orchids. One wealthy animal lover gave a banquet for his favorite dog, culminating in the gift of a $15,000 diamond collar to the canine guest of honor. In 1905 James Hazen Hyde, heir to the Equitable Life Assurance fortune, hired famed architect Stanford White to create a court ball in the style of Louis XVI. The state suite of Sherry's restaurant became a replica of the salons of the Grand Trianon Palace, graced by guests in elaborate period costumes. Mrs. Stuyvesant Fish, bored with the usual social affairs, hosted a formal dinner party for a mysterious "prince," who turned out to be a pet monkey in white tie and tails.
Maybe I should dress as a penniless bootblack, just for the full flavor of the social fabric.
The theme for the evening
Guys, I realize it's Saturday night and there aren't a lot of folks around, but Sifu needs to catch a lot of grief for this. Going to an event with a Theme? Are you kidding?
(Blume, make sure somebody takes a picture of you guys, though. 'Cause if you're going to go to all that bother, it's nice to have a photo.)
95: oh, people are on that one. I'm sort of a lost cause, really.
After the ball the authorities promptly raised Bradley Martin's taxes quite out of proportion to those paid by anyone else, with the matter only being settled after a long dispute.
Watch out, sifu. You might not think the current government would raise anyone's takes, much less rich people, but they might hate nerdy internet dweebs.
'Cause if you're going to go to all that bother, it's nice to have a photo.
And 'cause we're pretty much playing prom for grownups here.
Should I be embarrassed by just how great I think it is that all those old NYT articles are freely available?
Nah, why should it be embarrassing? Most of us get excited about cool stuff that is freely available. And criticizing somebody else's idea of cool is, IMO, Not Very Cool.
I'm a little bummed now that I think of the times that I was dating someone who would really have gotten into the costume-party thing, because it never actually worked out that there was a party opportunity during the relationship. Bah.
Witt, if you think thinking somebody else's idea of cool is uncool is not very cool, you're not very cool.
Awww, I hope you and your mom have a good time.
you're not very cool
Phew! It would be a shame to think I had missed my life's ambition by such a margin.
105: that had me puzzled for a time as well. So easy to forget there's a post way up there someplace.
I like the idea of fancy-dress parties, but it just so happens that I look foolish in long dresses. I cannot think of a single style of long dress that doesn't make me look absurd. I can pull off tea-length decently, and have five or six tea-length gowns and dresses in my closet at this very moment. Of course, there is pretty much never a reason for me to wear a gown, ever. You can't even wear that stuff to the opera without looking stupid anymore.
And yes, now with an opera comment, we've achieved full circularity w/r/t fancy-dress discussions.
Boy I really want one of those scarves. I don't have the overcoat (skirt) for it, though. Nor the two .45s, nor the Triad assasin gig.
You know, the scarf I'm imagining. No, one of those white silk opera scarves.
OT: Can anyone explain to me why my Macbook says it has 27% power left, and then suddenly clicks itself without warning, and when I plug it back in and turn it on, says it's at 0% power? WTF, I say? WTF?
The sort of scarf.
113: when batteries get old, it is difficult to accurately report how much charge they actually have. I couldn't tell you the technical reasons behind this.
I was going to say that it's a brand-new computer, but I have had it for over a year now. God, my life is slipping away.
Prom for grownups is so, so awesome. Buy a nice suit, Tweety. If you have it, you'll make/find opportunities to wear it. And Blume really should wear a tiara or *some* kind of tiny jeweled/feathered thing in her hair.
Ogged, I'm glad you finally got around to making those damn reservations. It *would* have been free if you'd made them a jillion years ago, but hey, inflation is the price of procrastination.
115: depending on the patterns of charging and discharging memory effects can become a problem fairly quickly. Still, wouldn't hurt to badger a genius.
116: a tux? I just don't know how often it'll come up.
96: The descriptions of the costumes are great. I hope all of the twenty or so Marie Antoinettes got into a great big cat fight over whose costume was the best. And then there is Chester Arthur as he is only rarely imagined: "Mousquetaire, in red and white velvet and satin, with bucket boots."
They also clearly understood the roots of their wealth:
In order to furnish protection to all this wealth of gems, a number of detectives will be present, employed as supernumeraries and in costume, of course.
Of course.
I've been ripping CDs all day, which might have something to do with it.
118: till, wouldn't hurt to badger a genius.
Yep, they'll be able to ferret out the problem.
A bunch of defective Mac laptop batteries were recalled a little while back.
I think I've found my answer: "coat of pink brocade, embroidered with white jet and lined with pale green satin, breeches, and vest of white satin"
119: The ears really make that image come alive.
"coat of pink brocade, embroidered with white jet and lined with pale green satin, breeches, and vest of white satin"
An argument in favor using semicolons to delimit entries in a list.
It must have been quite disconcerting to have him eleven years dead, though. In this day and age, that'd quite likely bring the mood of a party down.
125: talk to the Times of a century and change ago, Ben.
126: Indeed. Presumably his son, although they give his middle name as "Allen" not "Alan".
Is this an actual high society thing? If so, then I'd say don't try to dress above your station. Take the rental and make obvious what everyone else already knows anyway. If I misjudge you then a thousand pardons. But if you're trying to impress people who don't have to try too hard by trying too hard, then you may as well go with the cowboy hat and jeans.
123: Sorry Sifu, that won't match my blue dress.
I don't know if I can put anything in my hair. It's about an inch long right now. I have been using this occasion to search eBay for vintage jewelry, though. Got the dress on eBay, too, for less than half price. Woo hoo! The other day a friend told me I have great eBay-fu, and I was about to protest when I realized I was wearing three items of clothing I'd gotten there.
Maybe the jaded rich were tired of seeing dead presidents only on money.
130: I'm surely not trying to impress anybody, except perhaps Blume. Just trying to satisfy some internal urge to do a thing right.
Wittiest costume at the Bradley Martin ball: Miss Kate Hardcastle.
eBay has lots of pretty barrettes, and you could easy nestle a tiara in short hair.
133: Well in that case, wear her underwear.
This solves the black or white problem:
Full Court dress Charles I., black and white satin and velvet, jacket of embroidered velvet, slashed sleeves, showing white satin, large cloak of black brocaded velvet, lined with white moire.
That article was great, eb. Now I am on to the sad saga of Sherman Martin following up on this detail in the following story on the family: Three children were born to them—Sherman, who died on Dec. 22, 1894 in this city, of peculiarly sad and sensational circumstances. (their daughter did better becoming the Countess of Craven just past her 16th birthday.)
Sherman died at age 25 of drink. He also got married as a teenager, but to a supposedly illiterate woman in London. For a time young Martin refused to leave his bride, but he was ultimately induced to take a tour around the world in charge of a tutor. Back in the US he underwent a cure for an "inordinate desire for alcohol", but afterwards checked into a hotel, relapsed into drinking and died of "apoplexy of the brain" (although there apparently were rumors of suicide.)
Who needs fucking Dreiser, these people's stories write themselves.
I'm not sure how I feel about this, JP.
Ogged, I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse. I'm a little older than you and I have never owned or worn a suit or sportscoat. I have, however, been to white tie events and black tie events. The white tie I borrowed, the black tie I own.
Waht about them, hmm? Waht about them?
Thanks, all. I'm pretty proud of myself that I managed to get something non-black.
I can only assume w-lfs-n's typo was meant to lead us all here.
145: Part I, Chapter 10
The Pedant Suffers Pwnage From an Unexpected Quarter and Ponders the Implications
So that was Ogged that used my debit card?
What do you wear to work that you dont own a sports coat?
147 was aimed at me I presume? I don't see any reason to interview for a job in a suit if I won't be expected to wear a suit at the job. This has never been a problem, though to be fair most of my jobs haven't been from interviews. At this stage in my career I might plausibly accept a job where suit wearing made sense. That will cost them a bundle, and I'll buy some suits. Otherwise, why?
It's going be a sad day for you when I finish The Sot-Weed Factor, isn't it, JP?
140 is a vastly less appropriate model for that dress than I witnessed wearing it.
You should wear proper white tie, ST. Because you probably won't get another excuse to do so again for years, unless you finagle a diplomatic post out of the next administration. Or go with Ben to the opera.
155: Yes it will be. I'm probably enjoying it more than you are. Thanks for the excuse to pull it out again. Have kind of a love/hate thing with that book (as I do with Barth in general). Actually it works quite well as something to go back and reread bits and pieces of thirty year later. Something for you to look forward to in your dotage.
Unless I hear something else mighty convincing, I think 158 nails it.
158: I was gonna say, reading the Wikipedia entries on formal wear is like being trapped with no reading material but w-lfs-n posts. Sample quote (italics in the original): "Wearing morning dress to a semi-formal or a formal evening social event is sartorially incorrect and a risible faux pas."
158 is exactly what I told Tweety.
Plus, Tweety, your lady's wearing a floor-length gown. Man up already.
Tweety should get everything perfect down to the smallest detail, and also wear a propellor beanie.
Now that I think of it, CaST should go for a propellor beanie as well!
"propellor"?
Ben you're losing it tonight.
And you had the audacity to express reserve about my cake stand.
I've been losing it for longer than that.
I didn't say he should wear a loud beanie.
A finely tailored, black silk propeller beanie would be a pretty awesome thing, actually.
A not-loud propeller beanie would pretty much violate the essence of propeller beaniedom.
If Sifu wears a beanie, does Blume have to go as a sea serpent? (Actually, that dress would probably work for that.)
I'm sorry I don't live closer to you all, because I could loan you my tiara. it's kind of art nouveau-style, gold with rubies, from russia. it's really hard to come up with opportunities to wear it, though I did wear it to my wedding rehearsal.
139: Three children were born to them--Sherman, who died on Dec. 22, 1894 in this city, of peculiarly sad and sensational circumstances. (their daughter did better becoming the Countess of Craven just past her 16th birthday.)
Martha Nussbaum: Nussbaum's "aristocratic" lineage derives from her mother's family, which traces its roots back to the Mayflower. Her father, George Craven, was a conservative Southerner who became a prosperous lawyer in the trusts and estates division of a large Philadelphia firm.
Re the "Bradley Martin Ball": in Burrough's "Mr. Bradley Mr. Martin" is a repeated theme, having something to do with a death dwarf star which will bring civilization to end in a supernova. Just in case everyone didn't know that.
For all their aristocratic pride, the Cravens (ha! the joke writes itself) have no forebears on a par with Michael, Elizabeth, and Hannah Emerson.
For all their aristocratic pride, the Cravens (ha! the joke writes itself) have no forebears on a par with Michael, Elizabeth, and Hannah Emerson.
Denied a literary career she found more success in returning to her old profession, and acted as the procureress of young women, eventaully dying in poverty in 1846.
But not hanged, and no Indians killed.
bah I elided some stuff up there--it's garnets that look like rubies, obviously, it would be worth a zillion dollars otherwise.
172 makes tiara wearing sound fun! Totally different story when your tiara is from Russia, and not Claire's at the mall.
I also just realized this shindig will be a good opportunity to wear the cape I sewed in high school. (It's more like an I-wanna-be-a-Victorian cape than an I-play-D&D-cape.) I've only worn it two or three times, because, as I think Jackmormon has pointed out before, cape-like outerwear is highly impractical when you're carrying a bag.
It will be a fine time to wear my old high school wizard hat, real silk top hats being kind of tought to find.
Huh, Victorian capes are nothing like I imagined. Where do you hide your broadsword?
171: Someone seems to have watched the same cartoons during childhood that I did.
140: Oooh, that'll be gorgeous.
173: Her father, George Craven, was a conservative Southerner who became a prosperous lawyer in the trusts and estates division of a large Philadelphia firm.
I'm thinking 'probably not', in another interview she mentions that her father worked his way up from a poor background. But it would not surprise me if all Cravens trace back to that line one way or another.
At the time of the wayward son's death there was speculation as to whteher or not his lower class London wife would attempt to claim an inheritance, but I have found nothing else on that. The 4th Earl of Craven (who Cornelia Martin had married at 16), died in 1921 when he fell off his yacht in the middle of the night off of Cowes, Isle of Wight. In the police description of Lord Craven it was stated that his family crest was tatooed on his breast. Their uncle, Frederick Townsend Martin, was the author of The Passing of the Idle Rich and once said: "We are rich. We own America. We got it, God knows how, but we intend to keep it."
One last vignette, then I'll stop:
Esmond Bradley Martin died in 2002; his NY Times obituary said "He had an astonishing mind, alive with dynamism and originality that knew no horizons." An alumnus of Princeton, he was, among other things, a brilliant chess player, a discerning philatelist, a well-known orchid cultivator, a collector of fine watches, books, and English antique furniture, a talented amateur tennis player who once bested Pancho Gonzales, a world fly-fishing record holder for Atlantic salmon and excelled in his financial affairs,
It will be a fine time to wear my old high school wizard hat
And your robe? Keep in mind that you'll be in public.
i like brown colour too, they say it's a warm, earthly colour symbolizing refinement and sophistication
just it'd be a sign of trouble when one starts to buy almost every clothing item brown :)
i knew someone who liked so much purple that everything she used was purple, but she was almost blind, - 18 dptr, she underwent the laser operation on her retina to fix it, hope she still sees
i suspected that may be purple is the last colour to be visible, but may be not, it was just her random colour preference
70: Does "looks like a young Steven Seagal" really qualify as "model-quality"?
