Um... Let's see... in the past year I've run countless miles. Don't see myself getting lame anytime soon.
Also... this article suggests that running makes you happier. And more tolerant of... pain. So people who don't run need to run so that they can ignore the pain!
17 days or so to go.
I agree with you and all, and you're obviously my favorite Unfogged poster, but this
and there don't seem to have been all that many people lamed by overuse back then.
is rather ex recto, no?
Both of my uncles with "bad knees" that prevented them from going on any real outings now have type II diabetes.
2: LB wrote her JD thesis on personal injury law in 18th century Spain.
5: it's as true as anything else in my comment.
Back a while ago (and I'm quite young and healthy) I started some vigorous daily treadmill running. After three weeks of this, my knees started constantly hurting, and the pain grew slowly over time to worrisome levels. I got it checked by doctors, they said nothing they knew how to diagnose was wrong, and I quit exercising. It took a couple weeks for the pain to die down.
I tried switching to ellipticals, but didn't have any with an adjustable stride available, and I have long legs. On the exercise bikes, I had this tendon in my knee that was rubbing back and forth over some bone projection on every cycle, which became irritating pretty quickly.
I know too many apparently healthy, non-limping people under forty who don't do things because 'their knees can't take it.'
"Can't take it" is kind of true for a lot of people, but it's because they don't regularly exert themselves, not because their joints are worn out.
pdf I wonder if it was the vigorousness and dailyness; the muscles in your legs just didn't have time to recover.
there don't seem to have been all that many people lamed by overuse back then.
Coincidentally, I was wondering what happened to people who tore, say, their ACLs before we could repair them. Were they just lame for life? Or did they get put down? (and ACLs are easy to tear, right? One PE class a kid tore his playing touch football)
I'm going to hell for being mean to people who genuinely have bad knees.)
I find this consoling. I keep trying to bike/run and it just seems to make things worse. Which doesn't mean I've given up. Trying new things. But my knees bother me just walking around the house sometimes.
After three weeks of this, my knees started constantly hurting, and the pain grew slowly over time to worrisome levels.
Are you hugely fat or something? Hippos aren't supposed to do a lot of galloping around.
Seriously though, lots of variety on this stuff. For whatever reason, I'm more prone to knee pain with squats than with deadlifts.
"Can't take it" is kind of true for a lot of people, but it's because they don't regularly exert themselves
I'm hoping this is true. I heard that exercise increases lubrication or something. So my solution might be more knee exercise instead of long periods of rest.
My knees have started hurting abit when I bike a lot, but fuck 'em.
Youse all need to take a page from the book of the now-Governator of California. "My body is Temple...Shuga? Shuga is poison..." From an interview, now dimly remembered, between Ahnold and Merv (I out-trumped the Trump with my property holdings) Griffin. If you don't get this, you're probably a philosopher, or no doubt something equally effete.
Their knees probably can't take it. I have two twingy knees (never hyperextend while showboating on a flying lunge if you want your meniscus to love you), and the only thing that I've found that keeps me from having more severe problems is keeping my muscles in shape. They twinge a little now, but if I stop working out for four weeks they'll start really bitching. Squats seem to help for me.
So I imagine some people whose knees can't take it are telling the truth, but for the opposite reason of what they think.
As someone who's actually got arthritis in both knees (and I've had enough fluid drained from my right one to prove it), I say: phhhhbbbbbbbbbbbtttttttt.
That said, LB, don't you have unusually well-formed feet and ankles? Your knees are likely not a reliable guide because your feet don't suck.
I royally fouled up my knee with an over-ambitious training regimen in getting ready to run a marathon. That was during my first year of grad school. By my fourth year, I was again able to run more than 1/4 mile without profound swelling.
Still gets to hurting if I stand parallel to a slope for any duration.
A hundred years ago average life expectancy for men was 49.5 years, and for laborers more like 40. I suppose apart from getting worn out, laborers couldn't afford to see the doctor so very often.
Anyway, looks like back when people were walking five miles uphill both ways to work each day, they would all die about the time their knees would be wearing out. Coincidence? Perhaps.
Here is a U.S. life expectancy table broken down by sex and race.
10: ACLs are really only important for stabilizing the knee. I think in most cases, you could continue walking on a torn ACL without any significant pain. There was an article, perhaps in the NYT (I'm too lazy to look for it) about how younger and younger children where tearing their ACLs and how difficult arthroscopic surgery on youngsters is, and how the parents are very insistent on it because they see sports as a gateway.
Also, ACL injuries are most often twisting and quick movements, probably not such a big deal in day to day life, and moreso in sports.
Also, a lot of injuries are caused by starting an intense regime without working into it.
Or that average life expectancy is heavily skewed whenever there is a high infant mortality rate. If you made it past age five and didn't die in childbirth or in a war, you had a reasonable chance of making it till 70.
But I do think your general point is correct; people had arthritis back then, too.
Modern times sure have taken a bite out of the perks for whitey. Why, back in the roaring 20's I could have really flaunted my longevity to the negroes, but these days I'm not even supposed to outlive a black woman. Bah.
Is that any black woman, or some particular one, gswift?
Is that any black woman, or some particular one
In Salt Lake, black people are all hypothetical.
A hundred years ago average life expectancy for men was 49.5 years, and for laborers more like 40.
You need to take into account the impact of childhood vaccinations, though (as well as improvements in hygiene and nutrition and etc). Well, fucketty, but where is dsquared when we actually need him?
Until relatively recently, childhood diseases (now vaccinated against) carried off a good third to half of those who had ever been born, and most often before the tender age of 5. But if you had the good luck to make it past the age of 5, you had a pretty good chance of making it to 60 or so, and not just to 40. It's just that all those dead children, factored in, make the life expectancy look like 40 or so, when taken as a demographic average, when in fact, if you made it past childhood, you could actually expect to do a good deal better than 40.
No, no. Once people's knees gave out and they could no longer forage for food, their clan or tribe would abandon them by the side of the road and they would be eaten by wolves, from which they could not run away. It was hard, back in 1908; the fit had to be ruthless to survive.
On the veldt, no-one could hear you scream for Icy-hot.
In a prior life I actually knew something about osteoarthritis and other skeletal evidence of activity patterns in prehistoric people, but that was in another country, and besides, the skeletal populations are dead. I do remember seeing examples of eburnation, the shiny worn areas on the articular surfaces of bones caused by the complete destruction of the soft tissue and resulting bone on bone wear. It is, I believe, painful.
Here's a bit of an article on Atlatl elbow, including notes on its appearance in prehistoric groups. (pdf)
www.worldatlatl.org/Articles/TakochCD/Atlatl elbow.pdf
The article's thesis could be true and yet acute injuries could be fairly common.
I used to jog for exercise. I worked my way up to 6 miles a day, but then after about 2 months at that distance I had to quit because of cripplingly painful shin splints. There wasn't one acute injury; I just developed them over time and they got worse and worse. Now I use an eliptical trainer instead of running.
The article's thesis could be true and yet acute injuries could be fairly common.
That's certainly true. One would expect that people who spent a lot of time throwing spears would be more likely to suffer the occasional acute throwing injury than people who didn't throw spears.
I vaguely remember talk of repeated microtrauma as a possible causal agent, but I'm afraid it's all gone to mush in my memory. There is some literature, but I've lost it and I don't have the brains or the Google skill to find what's out there. I just thought the atlatl elbow article was cool, and cast a bit of context around the statement "... there don't seem to have been all that many people lamed by overuse back then." Of course, now that reburial of most all American skeletal populations is the usual practice, I'm not sure there's much work being done in the area.
In today's world spear throwers are also beset by knee and elbow ligament problems. Also by chronic douchebaggery.
I wonder if that javelin guy from 37 really was a good pitching prospect. Because if he gave that up for javelin he's a real idiot.
Well, he does seem like an idiot.
I think calling his hair a "Breaux-hawk" pretty much seals the deal
I jogged a little bit for exercise, but my knees started hurting so I switched down to walking. Every now and then that gets a little twingey too so I lay off it. Biking more than ten miles at a time, really not that much, tends to produce the same result. Doctors have never said anything more useful that "take ibuprofen" which I'm reluctant to do as a regular course, although I understand there are genuinely useful anti-inflammatory properties, not just pain-dulling.
Now I'm writing (which has involved quitting my job and therefore my health insurance) and getting different pains in my forearms coming and going. A brace is working on my right hand, a little bit. Auugh. It seems like a bit of psychosomatic drama based on my new uncertainty, but it's rather vexing and a little bit scary.
Also, my grandfather had his knees replaced at eighty and my father his at sixty, so I suspect mine won't be much longer.
(The mineshaft has sent quite a bit of advice on the writing pain -- this is just good ol' bitching.)
Huh. I guess I can start jogging then. Dammit.
10: Hines Ward (Steeler wide receiver) has one ACL that was torn when he was 9 and never repaired. Only discovered at the end of his college career.
37
Surely the persona interviewed in that article is really an elaborate and quite committed (à la Andy Kaufman) piece of performance art commenting on just-so stories about the veldt (with specific reference to spear throwing thereon), the construction of masculinity and the generic inanity of the sports profile. A little over the top, unfortunately.
Doctors have never said anything more useful that "take ibuprofen"
GPs always say that. They also always recommend you stop doing whatever sporting activity they think it causing your problems.
I have a torn meniscus in my right knee.* My GP's recommendation was to stop doing martial arts altogether, and take ibuprofen. The physiotherapists I saw, on the other hand, saw absolutely no reason to stop training as it seemed pretty obvious to them that the injury wasn't getting progressively worse over time and, from their point of view, it was dumb to stop training if there was no evidence training was exacerbating it. Further, from their point of view, training was doing strengthening work on the muscles around the knee and, if it wasn't aggravating the injury, was almost certainly helping.
As it happens, martial arts training doesn't seem to make it worse at all -- despite all the high loads and torque placed on bent legs -- but sitting down for long periods of time definitely does. Cycling is also out.
Ditto a back injury I picked up. A sports doctor friend recommended I begin training again as soon as it was possible to do so without severe pain, the GP on the other hand recommended lots of rest, and sure enough, pretty much the day after my first training session back after a 2 week layoff, it felt much improved.
The physios clearly had the right approach, I think. GP's on the other hand ...Rest is over-rated, I suspect [except in cases of severe acute injury, obviously].
* I've not been able to get an MRI as I don't meet the NHS diagnostic criteria for getting one [I can walk, basically]. But three different physios and two different GPs all agree that I've a torn meniscus.
What I recall but can't find a link for right now is that the meniscus (the cartilage in your knee) gets most of its nutrients from the synovial fluid and pumping this fluid around by, you know, actually using your legs is important for knee health.
I agree with 21.2 -- a lot of the injuries in this thread sound like overuse problems. I've had my share of overuse injuries, and I'm not a big fan of doing just one activity for exercise due to the high chance of getting more.
re: 46
The physio explained to me that the outer margins of the meniscus have a good blood supply and can heal without requiring surgery. The inner section of the meniscus doesn't have much of an active blood supply [I don't know if the nutrients come from the sinovial fluid] so tears there more often require arthroscopic intervention.
My own tear is [they believe] on the outer edge and should heal on its own and gradual improvement over the past year suggests this is right.
45: * I've not been able to get an MRI as I don't meet the NHS diagnostic criteria for getting one [I can walk, basically]. But three different physios and two different GPs all agree that I've a torn meniscus.
Oh, thanks for the trollbait, Ttam. Cue Shearer in 5, 4, 3...
10: Isn't an unrepaired ACL tear what they used to call a 'trick knee' -- doesn't hurt, but if you put your weight on it wrong, you fall down? Ex-athlete characters in books written before 1975 or so often have them.
On the thread generally, (this is again ex recto), I wonder if a lot of the overuse injuries come from athletes who don't walk much -- stay in the car for transportation all day, and then exercise hard for an hour or so. I can imagine that that sort of exercise might be fine for muscles and cardio, but too much in intensity and too little in volume for your joints. It'd be interesting if there were an urban/non-urban split there.
* I've not been able to get an MRI as I don't meet the NHS diagnostic criteria for getting one
? I've had two NHS MRIs, one for, yes, suspected knee cartilage injuries, mild, one for back problems that are painful but not desperately. See a consultant -- on the NHS -- ttaM.
re: 50
I suspect it depends where you go. I've seen several people. All of whom have told me that I don't meet the diagnostic criteria for an MRI. That is, there's no recent history of the knee locking or giving way.
To continue, clearly my local NHS trust have a set of guidelines for this. I'd probably have to go outside the area or kick up a fuss.
41 i know a friend who says that shark cartilage helps their arthritis better than anything else she tried, nsaids including
In Salt Lake, black people are all hypothetical.
Or playing for the Jazz.
Don't have time to comment, but the phrase "Wealth Induced Hypochondria" needs to by introduced into the standard medical lexicon.
20 years ago, I was sedentary and couldn't run becaues my knees hurt. I thought it was because I was too fat, so I lost a lot of weight and gradually worked my way up into being able to run.
I spent a decade being very active, but today I'm chubby again and only modestly active. I can, however, still run around without pain.
Also, ttaM, my wasteful American health plan allowed me to get an MRI for what my GP thought was a torn meniscus, but nothing showed up. As I became more sedentary, the meniscus (or whatever it was) cleared up on its own.
So I think I'm living evidence for both ends of LB's argument - that rest can heal acute injury, and exercise by itself doesn't wear you down, but strengthens you.
Of course, I am merely a data point ...
The blog ate my very long and insightful comment. Here is the short version: you fuckers with knee problems probably just don't know how to run. If you strike the ground heel-first, you're going to fuck up your knees over time, unless you have freakishly strong and healthy joints. Modern running shoes with cushioned soles allow a heel-first strike, which is too uncomfortable if you're running barefoot (or in minimally cushioned shoes). Learn to run and you'll be less achy. Learning to run might be hard if you've been running incorrectly--in cushy shoes--since you were a little kid, which many of us have.
49 probably also plays some role.
Granted, being overweight is probably hard on your joints too, even if you run correctly.
re 51, 52, yes; sorry, ttaM, I realise your PCT must have a different policy from my Health Trust (I think Wales doesn't have PCTs). And of course I had to wait for the MRIs -- not all that long, though. (I thought I'd best counter-comment to fend off trolls)
I'd probably have to go outside the area or kick up a fuss.
it sounds as though you'd have to kick up a fuss to be allowed outside. I do know that problem.
BTW the surgeon told me to carry on doing the things that hurt my knee; but he was a real expert and a sports medic.
re: 60
FWIW, I didn't really have a problem with not getting the MRI. The knee's improving and I'm generally OK with rationing in cases where there's no pressing need.
It'd certainly have been nice to know for sure, but, it's less painful now than a year ago, and I'm training harder and more often. So, I didn't see the point in making a big deal out of it.
I have made a big deal about other things in the past, where it was potentially serious. I don't really rate my local health trust, to be honest. My experiences have been definitely mixed, to say the least.
re: 58
Some of us have knee problem unconnected to running, of course. Running has never bothered my knees, although I don't run because I hate getting shin splints, and, inevitably, I do. Some day, I'll work on that, too. But one thing at a time.
58: That's actually a really good point. And you can certain tell the difference between someone running for exercise (heel strike) and someone running in everyday shoes to catch the bus.
That said, when I run, I don't look like the sleek joggers with their heel strikes, because I hit a lot more forward on my foot, and I still end up in pain. The last time I ran I was doing fine and then my right knee sorta seized on the outside, so I kept going, meaning my gait was fine on one side and looked like a drunken elephant on the other. Back to the elliptical.
49: Isn't an unrepaired ACL tear what they used to call a 'trick knee'
There might be other causes of "trick knee", but yes it is one of the results of unrepaired ACL. Without an ACL you lose both some mechanical stability and more intriguingly your proprioception (sense of position of your body parts) suffers as one of its key inputs is from stretch sensors on the ligament. This is a bad combination as the effect of one compounds the other (You come down awkwardly because of the sensory degradation and then lack the mechanical stability to recover from the awkward positioning), which can lead to repeated minor (or major) injuries to the meniscus and ultimately increased chance of arthritis. The deficits can be (partially) compensated for by specific muscle training and things like balance boards for the sensory part, Although physical activities that involve a lot of twisting and unpredictable landings (not a conditon to do a lot of mogul skiing with) are not good, many more controlled physical activities can actually be a net positive.
Huh! I have a trick knee: who knew!
62: Sounds like your ITB: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0814.htm
I second whoever said that if your knees hurt from running, start working on building up the muscles around your knees.
Really, aerobic + weights + flexibility is the happy trio for health and exercising. All in excess until you pass out from exhaustion.
Ask the Gymshaft: so after doing a lot of walking on angled, wet sand this week (including briefly while carrying a commenter) my foot hurts.
Do I have gout?
while carrying a commenter
Blume? how romantic
nice, you deserve no gout
The piggyback part wasn't actually so romantic. I'm quite certain people were laughing at us.
Yeah there was a little too much staggering and flailing for it to really count as romantic, I think.
Do I have gout?
No. Galloping consumption, probably.
Ooh, consumption. That's romantic, isn't it?
I'm gettin' my sallow, waifish figure cradled to-night!
Wait, so you're supposed to run with your toe pad hitting the ground first?
Supposedly, yes. The theory goes that you should run the way you'd run if you were barefoot - bouncing on the ball of your foot for cushion, and leaning forward.
Hence all the new running methods. POSE, etc.
I can't speak for that, but have noticed that martial arts sparring, or playing indoor games [badminton, or whatever] where I'm up on the balls of my feet doesn't aggravate shin-splints whereas (heel-strike) road-running does.
Oh hai, that's how I run!* I always thought I was doing it wrong.
*Which is about twice a year, for about five minutes each time, and often indeed barefoot.
where I'm up on the balls of my feet doesn't aggravate shin-splints whereas (heel-strike) road-running does
Yeah, when I started running I would heel strike and got really bad shin splints. After switching to ball of the foot striking the shin splints haven't come back.
Whenever I jump without doing a little warm up of plié--sauté I get shin-splints. Technique teachers are supposed to be evil about enforcing the "roll through your feet!!!1!" rule. I guess I had always thought that jogging was some totally different form of exercise that obeyed different rules; it was what those other people did because they were crazy.
ehm, denial is a sure sign of something
of what i forgot, but i don't want to embarass you guys
still it's nice enjoying piggybacks, that's the most romantic thing i heard recently, dinners at FL excluding of course
i can see around here two more potential couples but not sure yet, so won't tell
coz i'm good at recognising people's compatibility, i helped for example to meet 3-4 couples in my life, all of course my friends, of which two got divorced when i was not around, pity
still a better success rate than eharmony perhaps
i can see around here two more potential couples but not sure yet, so won't tell
coz i'm good at recognising people's compatibility, i helped for example to meet 3-4 couples in my life, all of course my friends, of which two got divorced when i was not around, pity
still a better success rate than eharmony perhaps
read is the anti-Emerson!
Read vs. Emerson steel cage match!
better yet, absence of denial of denial
why anti? i'm not anti, i'm only pro-happiness
61 I'm OK with rationing too but prefer the kind I face, having to wait for a totally non-urgent scan, to a ban on getting one,
Sorry about your health trust.
I second whoever said that if your knees hurt from running, start working on building up the muscles around your knees.
Agreed, *but* you have to work on building all the muscles around your knees. I jumped right into aerobics class/treadmill/elliptical gymwork once, though I'm not a gym-going, healthy person. After a couple of weeks, I ended up with excrutiating pain in my knees, so much so I could barely walk.
Turns out I had bulked up my outer thigh muscles--quads?--but did nothing for the inner thigh & some other small muscles, and my kneecap was being pulled off-center by the suddenly tight, overworked muscles. Special isometric exercises helped me balance them out, so that the patella would rest in its appropriate groove again. They have some name for the condition, I don't remember what.
In the process I discovered that water aerobics is fun, though. Before I stopped going to gym altogether, because I am lazy.
62: And you can certain tell the difference between someone running for exercise (heel strike) and someone running in everyday shoes to catch the bus.
This may have more to do with prefering speed and acceleration to efficiency. Sprinters run pitched forward (at least when accelerating), on the balls of their feet and with a pronounced arm motion. People catching a bus aren't generally running very far. Most people would find it difficult and unprofitable to run like this for very long.
That said, I've known who have done the Pose technique (and the like) with good results, but there is a big risk of injury if you try maintain your accustomed mileage while making such a dramatic switch.
There are a lot of good comments on this thread. Exercise helps you, except when your body isn't ready for it. What does that say? Fitness is a lifelong pursuit. And it's not a good idea to abandon it for any signifcant length of time. If you do, you have to be really careful about making sure you come back in a balanced fashion. But if you are in good shape, and engage in a diverse set of exercise activities 3 or 4 times a week, you should be okay.
Also note: GP's are worthless for fitness advice. I remember when I hurt my shoulder exercising in college. My GP recommended going with 1/3 to 1/4 my pre-injury weight in the weight room. My question: what is the point? Either I should be stressing the muscle or not.