you obviously never tried out that place on john street that was supposed to be the "best bar to rock out with your cock out." [yawn.]
In fact, they're usually completely phoned in,
Like everything else in the press.
It's all bullshit.
We'll reserve your table at Cynicism Cafe right now!
max
['One extra-large Pie of Bile comin' up!']
It's a comfort to learn that appearances in these lists are not actually paid for by the businesses listed, as I'd long suspected.
3: Except I've heard that our city's eponymous rag will give you "Best of" once, but not twice, if you don't buy an ad.
3: I have personally witnessed a publisher dumping ballots for a "Best of" issue in order to dictate the winners based on his perception of who would buy the most advertisements if they won.
Also, the reader-judged choices are often skewed by businesses (especially restaurants) instructing their employees to vote for their employer (especially restaurants which feature a large yellow letter as part of their logo.)
4: the Herald, the Globe or the Phoenix?
a publisher dumping ballots for a "Best of" issue in order to dictate the winners based on his perception of who would buy the most advertisements if they won.
That is exactly what happens.
They solicit advertisements first, then count votes.
7: while we do live on the globe, I'm going to guess Boston Magazine.
9: I must have eaten the stupid candy this week. Of course, duh.
And I had thought that restaurant reviews were the last refuge of integrity and truth.
In this light, the practices described in the post seem charmingly naive. Not unlike the faith of young journalists in the power of Truth . . .
BG, what a dreary day it is in your fair city.
It is, and we had beautiful weather last week. I felt kind of sorry for the Orthodox Christians whose Easter was this past Sunday. We had lovely, summer-like weather mid-week, and then it turned cold once the weekend hit.
(I was here last week as well. This is the first time I've ever been here in the rain (I've never seen rain when in London -- I lead a charmed life that way)).
13. Serve 'em right. That'll teach them to reject dual procession!
Strangely, our local free weekly used to (I haven't been reading it since it got bought and all the columns outsourced so I don't know how it works now) give two awards per category in "Best Of" lists--there was the one people had actually voted for and then there was the one the paper liked. Seldom did these overlap; the paper liked hipsterish things, but I suppose, per this post, not hipsterish enough. We did win "best local pirate radio station" the year I was doing pirate radio, although that was pretty easy since we were of course the only local pirate station.
6: Seeing the golden arches win "Best Fries" in the reader-voted best-of awards in the local alt-weekly in western mass ("behind the Tofu Curtain", as the radio station put it) was my clear sign that there was no real best-of judgement going on.
Experience Maximizer
Great descriptive phrase.
Tyler Cowen has a chapter on restaurant experience maximization. Also film experience maximization. "How to be a cultural millionaire".
17: As I recall, Pittsburgh has earned scorn on several occasions when Pizza Hut has "won" some of the votes for best pizza. These results are partly due to cluelessness, and partly due to a lack of normalization in the votes when people stick with local neighborhood favorites.
Fresh arches fries are a guilty pleasure that even the hardiest hippies had the salty goodness of soaked into their hindbrain as 80/90s children. I'm not surprised they would win a vote.
I was in charge of counting the ballots for a business magazine's best-of restaurant list in my hometown, which was considered the most important restaurant award you could get in that city because business people are the ones who really know the restaurants. I counted them fair, and made sure they went in as counted (I was 18). The sales people would try to stand behind me while I did this, or even take me out to lunch, so I'd give them leads on whom to attack for advertising.
All in all, the magazine had a really craven attitude toward ads supporting content, but usually, the content was invented at least a few moments before ads were sold. This might have been because, as it's a business magazine, buying the ad was, in most cases, a no-brainer.
I counted them fair, and made sure they went in as counted (I was 18).
So could you get a job counting votes in the election? Or are you as corrupt as the rest of them now you've turned 21?
I think this is just an instance of the general rule that any time you read a news story or feature where you have some familiarity with the events or topic, it turns out to be riddled with errors and misrepresentations.
25: no, this should be a case in which the "story" practically writes itself, literally, based on user-generated content processed objectively into a pre-designed end result, the rules for deciding which were established in advance. And no reporting, or even reporters, need to be involved. and there are no concepts that need to be put into the writer's own words. no concepts more complicated than "Tessaro's: 45", that is.
And they still get it wrong! because this time, it is out of malevolence rather than incompetence.
I've mentioned before that I know a vegetarian restaurant reviewer who takes his friends to dinner and writes up their reports for them.
FWIW, I can attest, more or less, to the sanctity of Pgh's alt-weekly Best Of process. It's a reader vote and, while I can't swear that 6/8 doesn't happen, I know that senior editorial staff doesn't think much of a lot of the perennial picks.
I would also note that we don't slam many restaurants (we avoid the ones we expect to be bad, and I'm a bit of a softy), yet both of our two most recent slams continue to advertise heavily.
I can also testify how hard it is to write up a Best Of piece on a really mediocre - but venerable - Italian place that our stupid readers voted for.
And I had thought that restaurant reviews were the last refuge of integrity and truth.
They are!
At least, mine are. As I said, I usually try to put a positive spin on things - I hate to think of driving an innocent, if not exceptionally well-run, restaurant out of business - but it's usually in the form of a positive closing, not lying about undercooked fries or tinny tomato sauce.
I also think that "Experience Maximizer" is a great succinct descriptor. It does not seem to be a common term on the web (Unfogged reference is 12 of 76, many of which are not relevant), but I was intrigued that it was used in pretty much the same way in a Time article from 1965 on summer vacation reading habits*. Has it been burbling along for 40+ years as a very apt, but generally unknown phrase?
*One of the most ardent of all literature luggers is the Experience Maximizer, who seeks to extract every ounce of significance from his travels by boning up on the history and folklore of the place he is visiting.
peter, are you in Pittsburgh now?
Has anyone heard from Ned?
All of JRoth's reviews contain the similar lines:
"Although the food does not please me like a Primanti's Number 2, ...."
Has it been burbling along for 40+ years as a very apt, but generally unknown phrase?
If so, very interesting. I don't know whether I've seen it before, or it's so apt that it's instantly recognizable.
Shit, all this reminds me that I need to get out 2 reviews before leaving town Thursday PM. Grumble.
At Evil Editor Weekly, advertisers had no sway in the process, but we didn't have readers vote either (ha! do you know how much extra work that would be?). So "best X" actually meant "X that someone on staff likes for no particular reason." Totally phoned in.
33: How did you know?
Actually, the other night a bartender who'd been told who I was identified me as the tougher reviewer, which is not how I think of things. As the cook in our family, I'm probably more prone to having specific objections, although I'm far more omnivorous than AB (who, for instance, is grossed out by Primanti's; it doesn't help that, the first time she ever went, some gory crime occurred there - a stabbing, maybe?).
I am here.
I can also testify how hard it is to write up a Best Of piece on a really mediocre - but venerable - Italian place that our stupid readers voted for.
Let me guess, Lombardozzi's.
Also, you should change your pseudonym here to "DOOM".
The other newspaper in my town gives awards to everyone with a street address. I don't mean just a certificate saying "Best Restaurant" hanging near the entrance to the classy place in town, I mean certificates saying things like "Best Barbershop."
The thought occurs that you might actually be D//M. In that case, googleproof the first instance, please, someone.
37: Same side of the street, other end of the neighb.
Not DOOM. I could hardly be less discrete when I post here on this subject.
Fun fact: There is no M/nch. M/nch is a floating pseud used by a variety of P-G writers who do the low-end food reviews. Which is part of why it's so schticky - the schtick is the unifying "personality."
Knecht, calling Knecht - I just wrote back to yr pit BBQ questions on the other thread.
AB (who, for instance, is grossed out by Primanti's; it doesn't help that, the first time she ever went, some gory crime occurred there - a stabbing, maybe?).
Please do not tell me that she doesn't like the White Spot either!?!?!?!?!
Fun fact: There is no M/nch. M/nch is a floating pseud
No! First Kevin Young is named in the Mitchell Report, and now this!
I really like Best Of issues. This doesn't change that. If Rick's Auto Body is good enough for one alt-weekly writer, it works for me. And it has.
It's of a piece with my combination of laziness and vanity. Hey, I enjoy staring at someone's face in the mirror, and that one's not going anywhere.
I suspect this is also true of fluffy style trend pieces. 'What are the young men doing? Fuck if I know. Wait, my two guy friends went out for dinner last night. A trend: the man-date!'
I don't, however, like the Roxy Music album "For Your Pleasure". Is there a better one?
I suspect this is also true of fluffy style trend pieces.
Oh hell yes.
The problem with "experience maximizer" is its total non-specificity. There are "experience maximizers" who try to read guidebooks very carefully before foreign travel, using highlighters on relevant section and visiting all the top attractions in rank order. At the other extreme, there are "experience maximizers" who want to try every form of human debauchery before they die. The two types would have very little to say to each other.
49: unless one were to assume a guidebook to orgies.
What about the personality/relationship quizzes? When they're well done, these are absolutely my favorite part of a magazine. Are there specialists at doing these?
from the link in 50:
Victoria Vantoch is an award-winning sex historian and journalist. Her writing has appeared in The Washington Post, U.S. News & World Report, the Los Angeles Times, and many other newspapers and magazines. She is currently a Fellow at NASA, where she is researching the sex lives and gender roles of airline stewardesses in the 1950s and '60s. She's currently living in a threesome.
I suspect this is also true of fluffy style trend pieces. 'What are the young men doing? Fuck if I know. Wait, my two guy friends went out for dinner last night. A trend: the man-date!'
Also true of political reporting:
"McCain is a great guy!"
"People are questioning whether Obama can win!"
Also, Roxy's albums seem more like slices of music rather than unified entities; you could do worse for Roxy than picking songs. Last.fm would be one place to go to see what other folks like, many songs streamable free.
53: "We're all talking about Reverend Wright! There we go again!"
"Avalon" is great. It won't make you feel old like a senior citizen, just world-weary in a langorous and sophisticated way.
56: I found "She Sells" here and could never get it out of my head, and people love RM, but I've never found my way back in. I like your fighting technique.
(I assembled all but three of those 50 tracks using LimeWire and dial-up. I think the 56k era was the prime of discovering new music for me, because there was some challenge to it so I listened avidly to what I was able to find and download uninterrupted.)
I like 60 better than 61, pedantry be damned. The languid elderly, flouncing about in their sophistication.
I think the 56k era was the prime of discovering new music for me, because there was some challenge to it so I listened avidly to what I was able to find and download uninterrupted.
Yeah, DSL has been an unexpected net loss for me in terms of music consumption. I've downloaded so much indiscriminate crap that I can't be bothered to listen to it and weed through it all.
The key is to get on torrent sites that do a good job of pre-selecting for you, so that you're excited to hear whatever you turn up there.
64: Yes, I was going to point to Stranded and Country Life as the top of their game from my perspective, although the comment on just going for individual songs is pretty valid. (But take it with a grain of salt, even I have no confidence in my musical taste.)
Avalon? Pfft. s/t; For Your Pleasure.
70: (As you can see, still slightly bitter after having troubles with Soulseek last night. Oh for the days when all the V0 vinyl rips of limited-release EPs and 12"s were at my fingertips!)
Oh, wait. Wrongshore just said he doesn't like "For Your Pleasure".
That's just sick.
As I recall, Pittsburgh has earned scorn on several occasions when Pizza Hut has "won" some of the votes for best pizza. These results are partly due to cluelessness, and partly due to a lack of normalization in the votes when people stick with local neighborhood favorites.
Accenture used to come on near the top of a list of the most desirable employers (based on a survey of business students) for roughly the same reason, and with roughly the same justice.
68: Let us know what you do, and how it turns out.
partly due to a lack of normalization in the votes when people stick with local neighborhood favorites.
Quite certainly true. That said, I'm surprised that neither Mineo's nor Vinnie's wins, because those are the two iconic places. The former, IMPO, is overrated, but the latter is pretty much all it's cracked up to be.
The strange thing is that the infamous Pizza Hut votes happened a long time ago*, before there was "good" - as in, beyond pizzeria-style - available. Now I think you'd be hard-pressed to get any consensus between Sh/rp Edge, P/ccolo Forno, Il P/zzaiolo, and a few others, let alone the aforementioned classic pizzerias.
* Not that it doesn't still happen, but that it was stranger before
I'm having trouble with the idea that good pizza is "beyond" pizzeria-style.
I was at first disappointed by the info in the post, but on second thought I'm not sure why that would be a problem. Take a Best Of issue, New York Magazine's Top 101 Cheap Eats 2006, por ejemplo. The point of this list isn't its objective correctness, it's that a lot of these are places you might not have heard of which sound interesting. They could turn out to be mistakes, but it's not as if there's some other system for picking out new restaurants to try which is foolproof.
She is currently a Fellow at NASA, where she is researching the sex lives and gender roles of airline stewardesses in the 1950s and '60s.
Now there's some mission creep for you.
I think that framing is a really important part of going out. An OK blues band somewhere not fashionable is great compared to the multiplex or to catching up on laundry. But while browsing the whole universe of possibilities, it seems like aiming low to choose that. The magic of a best-of list, or of a food or architecture glossy, is that it encourages lofty goals.
Of course, wishing is cheap, and without follow-through, indulging is a sort of junk food for the spirit, OK in small portions taken irregularly, but terrible as a steady diet.
Sh/rp E/ge is known for its pizza? I've always found it to be as disappointing as all the rest of their food, except the fancy burgers which are good.
78, that's why ""good"" was in quotes. "good" meaning a nice sit-down restaurant with a liquor license and a variety of food, not a take-out place with a cooler.
Two things occur to me: why did Becks replace "is" in the post with "--"? Second, why aren't we demanding that her roommate who might have been involved in a best-of be dishing the real best-of (the places he'd rather not get too crowded) to us here?
THERE IS ONLY ONE DISTORTION IN THE MARKET LEFT IN THE UNITED STATES
SELFISH PEOPLE REFUSING TO USE THE POWER OF WORD OF MOUTH TO DIRECT MORE BUSINESS TO BUSINESSES THAT DESERVE MORE BUSINESS
HOW SELFISH CAN YOU GET, WANTING THE PLACE TO STAY UNCROWDED? AT THIS RATE WE WILL NEVER REACH UTOPIA
84.2: Because they're in D.C. and hence irrelevant to my life 99.9% of the time?
86: oh like you don't want the inside scoop.
A long time ago I had a favorite restaurant (La Casa de Rios) that never got a good rating. It was a cheap Mexican place run by a big mixed honky/Mexican family, and totally jolly good homemade generic Mexican food. Perhaps they forget to make the payoffs.
where she is researching the sex lives and gender roles of airline stewardesses in the 1950s and '60s
Sex in Outer Space, or making sure the Patriarchy gets to Mars.
Will polygamy be commonplace on the outer worlds, or mandatory?
I am sure this has been discussed at length elsewhere on the internet.
88: Even at Evil Editor Weekly, it was never about the payoffs, but it's true that places like Casa de Rios, once they fall off the radar of the local food press, almost never get written about again.
I think most readers would be surprised to learn how many contributors to papers' annual restaurant guides have no background in restaurant criticism, and that their evaluations are often based on a single visit.
89: I can ask her, if you'd like. I bet NASA has.
I can ask her, if you'd like. I bet NASA has.
The concept of NASA engineers salivating over future John Norman type slave girls on colonized planets is probably a dated one. But when I take the kids to the JPL open house, the boy/ girl ratio seems a trifle one sided. Just sayin'.
78, 83: Exactly right about the quotation marks - I struggled for the right word there. A wood-fired Margherita is plainly not trying to be the same thing as a pizzeria pie.
I'm surprised you don't like Sh/rp Edge pizza - thin, crispy crust, good quality ingredients... It had a good rep even before they redid the place. We live around the corner, so it's our go-to pizza. We're a bit tired of it after 7 years, but it's taken that long.
M/neo's is too greasy/salty for me; I prefer A/ello's for pizzeria pie. Hearty, crisp, well-balanced.
Roxy Music is one of those bands, for me, that I expected to like, based on liking that style of music, but that I just don't.
I want more than just style.
The concept of NASA engineers salivating over future John Norman type slave girls on colonized planets is probably a dated one
cf. the scene in Dr. Strangelove where the post-apocalypse repopulation of the planet is discussed.
NickS! You're wrong about Roxy Music, but I still love your mostly rock mix.
95. A Boy and His Dog also.
Somehow, only the pretty girls and the male nerds survive. I wonder how that happens?
That guy in A Boy in His Dog wasn't a nerd. He was an anti-intellectual stud.
A wood-fired Margherita is plainly not trying to be the same thing as a pizzeria pie.
I meant more that a wood-fired Margherita is a pizzeria pie. You can get pies like that at, you know, pizzerias. There are many kinds of pizzerieas.
You can also get pies like that at snooty restaurants that will charge you an arm and a leg for your bistecca alla fiorentina, but that's neither here nor there.
A wood-fired pizza would have hit the spot last night, what with all the pizzerias near my house lacking gas service.
90: I used to love to read Zus/man's end-of-year pontifications just to savor his self-satisfied obnoxiousnous. He reminds me exactly of Jann Wenner of Rolling Stone, who also does end-of-the-year pontifications. There's something classic bout those two guys,
Well, General "Buck" Turgidson wouldn't qualify as a nerd, either. I was implying the relative comliness of the female survivors in the genre. The male is incidental.
NickS! You're wrong about Roxy Music, but I still love your mostly rock mix.
Thank you. And my opinion about Roxy Music isn't a judgement, just an expression of frustration at feeling like I'm not getting it.
94: Oddly, Roxy Music is a band I'd expect to hate, because of the style, but I sort of like. Maybe they're some sort of left-handed anti-band with reversed chirality.
Another group I like which I should hate is Fleetwould Mac, specifically Rumors. Stevie Nicks was so cute, and her lyrics were so loopy.
Actually the only Roxy album I've heard is Avalon, which people say is atypical.
Dr. Strangelove
I just watched this again a couple of weeks ago. What a great movie. Then, yesterday, my dentist tells me that the unreasonable effectiveness of flouridation has affected dentists nationwide.
Another group I like which I should hate is Fleetwould Mac, specifically Rumors
John, you've got to let go of the Clinton hatred!
Another group I like which I should hate is Fleetwould Mac, specifically Rumors. Stevie Nicks was so cute, and her lyrics were so loopy.
In which Emerson confesses his boomer bona fides, after all.
Then, yesterday, my dentist tells me that the unreasonable effectiveness of flouridation has affected dentists nationwide.
They must be used to it by now.
78, 99: The pizza fascist who runs Una Pizza Napoletana in the East Village agrees with Ben entirely. There is even a manifesto involved. Suffice it to say, what he makes is pizza, and if one makes something pizza-like through other methods, that is not pizza.
I haven't been there in while. Nom.
Then, yesterday, my dentist tells me that the unreasonable effectiveness of flouridation has affected dentists nationwide.
Specifically, it has pushed them into cosmetic dentistry. It's more profitable, it's paid for out of pocket (so no insurance reimbursement hassles), and patients are eager to get the procedure done as opposed to dreading it.
Having grown up in a milieu where the water wasn't flouridated and sweetened soft drinks were considered appropriate infant nutrition, I've seen in my own cohort that access to proper dental hygiene can be as big a barrier to socioeconomic advancement as lack of access to higher education. A mouth full of rotten teeth is a more unmistakeable (and indelible) class marker than obesity or unfashionable clothes.
See, Fleetwood Mac is post-Sixties disco era shit.
They must be used to it by now.
Just who do you think is behind all this "super white" teeth bullshit? The dental- industrial complex that's who. Now that EmmaJacob has no cavities, just how are they supposed to make the payments on the Jag? I mean really.
Boy, I could really go for some manifesto-style pizza, but I don't think any is made in these parts.
Hollywood "Hotel California" shit. The worst stuff in the world. I should hate it. But I love "Rumours".
IF you're not into relationships or jobs, you don't need very many teeth. I have 13, all on the bottom. I can't eat carrots or nuts.
You might be interested in the document linked from this post, oudemia.
115. Is the top of your head flat? Do you live above a liquor store? There are people for whom your no relationship policy would be but an impediment.
116: The page won't load! Is it the manifesto? The first thing I did after eating at UPN for the first time was scan the manifesto and send it to everyone I know. I just sent it to rfts!
Is it the manifesto?
Nah, it's the very detailed adventures of one guy (Jeff Var/asano) to approximate proper pizza in a home oven.
It's not a manifesto, and the page loads for me fine. Maybe it's not redirecting you properly? Try here. It's the story of one man's quest to make the perfect NY-style pizza in his home oven (on which he broke the safety lock).
He's got rankings of many pizzerias at the bottom of the page. Una Pizza Napoletana is fourth; his own is fifth.
Suffice it to say, what he makes is pizza, and if one makes something pizza-like through other methods, that is not pizza.
sounds like a bit of a gnocca to me.
120: Oh, nom. CA will enjoy that immensely.
I meant more that a wood-fired Margherita is a pizzeria pie.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Is this one of these stupid CA things?
I would rather go without Margherita for the rest of my life than go without American-style pizzeria pizza. They're different beasts, and I like both, but to pretend that one is authentic and legit, while the other is declasse and to be deprecated, is the kind of food talk that makes me seethe with rage.
Literally.
Seething.
JRoth is so incandescent rage that he fails to realize that w-lfs-n's quoted comment made the exact same point so vociferously defended in 123.
Now that I've settled a bit. I'll note that the latter part of 99 may misunderstand me; of the 3 "good" pizza purveyors I mentioned, only one so much as approximates "snooty;" one is pretty plainly a pizzeria, but a nice one - one where bringing a bottle of decent wine wouldn't seem stupid. But I'm not even sure if they sell anything other than pizzas.
But as I said, it's not the same as the approximately 1,000 other pizzerias in the city, all of which make pies that are more like each other than they are like Margherita.
I'm not seeing how Tweety's 124 is true. There's what I'm calling "pizzeria pie," of which Ray's Original* is something like the type specimen. There's wood-fired Margherita, which is made on cracker-crisp crust with bufalo mozzarella, fresh tomatoes, olive oil, and basil leaves. They are not interchangeable. That the latter is available at some pizzerias doesn't make it pizzeria pie any more than hand-battered cod on a hoagie roll is a Filet o' Fish.
* Not actually an endorsement; if I ever had Ray's, it was ~15 years ago
They are not interchangeable.
B-but he wasn't saying that. He was saying that they could both be purchased at pizzerias, an assertion which you were kind enough to point out is literally true.
The fact that you were using an undefined and fairly iconoclastic definition of the term "pizzeria pie" was neither more here nor more there than the above-mentioned overpriced bistecca.
Whether there is one ideal of pizza.
In the US, every truly great pizzeria has one neckless employee (that is, profile is head-ears-shoulders). In Italy, this is not true. There must be two distinct entities
called Pizza.
On the contrary, spherical tourists do not notice the difference between food served in the US and in Italy, except for portion size.
I answer that higher prices for hops have cut runs of some of my favorite brews, but not raised the prices of the very best.
OK, putting aside what actually is or is not a pizza, I trust that no one here has actually called (or believes that anyone anyplace has actually called) any manner of pizza a "za", which is the putative excuse for it being added (along with "qi") to OSPD-4 (aka Scrabble Dic for Whiners). An article I read claimed that was a West Coast thing...
128: I'm pretty sure "za" shows up in The Preppie Handbook.
I believe "ZA" is in the Scrabble dictionary because it was one of the syllables in the outmoded version of the solfege scale.
Along with "UT".
I knew people who said za. From upstate NY, early 90s. I don't say it, but use it for telephone menus.
fairly iconoclastic definition of the term "pizzeria pie"
There are about 60,000 pizzerias in this country. How many serve wood-fired Margherita? A few thousand, at most. How many serve something rather like Ray's Original? Tens of thousands. I don't see how "iconoclastic" can be used to describe a definition that encompasses the vast majority.
You can get Sicilian pizza a lot more places than Margherita, but you'd get some pretty surprised responses if, in response to a request for a slice of pizza, you handed someone a thick square of pizza.
Shit, next you'll be telling me that a beef patty with mushrooms and gravy should be called a "diner burger" because such an item is served at certain diners.
133: Tens of thousands. I don't see how "iconoclastic" can be used to describe a definition that encompasses the vast majority.
"Music is crap"
"Americans are white"
"Famous philosophers are dead"
109: It's only open four days a week, and pretty regularly crowded on those days, so it's not the easiest place to go to. Though last time I walked by I was surprised by the lack of a line. Maybe I'll try to go this weekend.
None of those are iconoclastic. Other than the middle one - which is offensive for reasons that don't really transfer to pizza - none of them are actually very controversial positions.
Anyway, it seems as if the defense of Ben's 99 is that he was being an annoying little bitch. Bully for him.
Anyway, it seems as if the defense of Ben's 99 is that he was being an annoying little bitch.
Well, yeah.
How in the world was I being an annoying little bitch? You were talking about "pizzeria pie" as if it's just one thing. It's not. The defense of 99 is that it's right.
136, 137: One does not blame the lion for eating the hapless wildebeest, or the locust for destroying farmer's livelihoods. Such is their nature, and it cannot be resisted. It is the same with the w-lfs-n.
139: One does not blame ...
Or the government for creating the AIDS virus.
138, is the definition of "pizzeria" "place that serves pizza"? If so, "pizzeria pie" is unnecessarily redundant. If not, what subset of places that serve pizza are pizzerias?
And are there pizza pies that are not pizzeria pies?
Also, I seem to have left some of what you might call fruit in 98.
138: Oy vey. If - if - there was serious confusion about what I was conveying with the phrase "pizzeria pie" - which phrase I contend conjures up a fairly consistent food-image in the minds of 90+% of Americans - then that confusion would have been long-since cleared up by the time you posted 99. Which is why 99 is bitchery.
141: there are establishments that serve pizza which might describe themselves as "trattoria" or "osteria" or "tex-mex brewpub" rather than "pizzeria".
There are also pizzerias that are not in America, but that is apparently out-of-scope.
142: I dunno I'm pretty confused now. I certainly have no idea what a "Ray's Original" is, except maybe a Radnitzky photograph.
"pizzeria pie" is unnecessarily redundant.
What would you say? "pizzeria foodstuff"?
I believe the best approximator for what JRoth is meaning could be summed up thusly:
If the establishment you are thinking of is in the United States as opposed to Italy, and could and frequently is described as a "pizza joint", it is a pizzeria that likely produces a "pizzeria pie" resembling the tens of thousands of others in the US.
Most places that serve pizza margherita could not be characterized thusly, and any attempt to describe them as such would later result in your friends saying "What the fuck!? I thought we were just grabbing a slice or something! I only brought $6 with me, so you better cover the difference" when brought to said establishment.
141: there are establishments that serve pizza which might describe themselves as "trattoria" or "osteria" or "tex-mex brewpub" rather than "pizzeria".
See, there you go. Not pizzerias. What they serve is pizza but not pizzeria pizza.
145: "pizza".
Picture Sal's from Do The Right Thing. If you. Now picture the place you've been to most similar to Sal's. That place is a JRoth-sense pizzeria. If you haven't seen Do The Right Thing I don't even know why I'm talking to you.
edit to 148:
What they serve is pizza but not NECESSARILY pizzeria pizza.
148: but, see, there are also places that do describe themselves as pizzerias which serve Margher...
My god, this is the number one stupidest discussion I've ever been a part of. I've said that before, but this time I really mean it.
131: UT!
Amen.
max
['Lacks Screwball tho.']
The most exotic menu item in a pizza joint should be the Hawaiian pizza. Save your gorgonzola, spinach and pine nuts for the foodies.
149: There are places that look exactly like Sal's in Staten Islan and Astoria and NJ and even in Manhattan that serve margherita pies. It's not actually fancy! It is just Naples-style. Naples, not fancy either.
Yes, this is silly.
There are real Italian pizzerias -- every bit the equal of your New York joints! -- near my house that will gladly (or at least long-sufferingly) put spinach on a pizza, that would never in a million years serve you a hawaiian.
"Ray's Original"
Ah, I used this because it's perhaps the most famous NYC pizza place/chain. It's mostly famous because it was well-known as Ray's, then another place opened named Ray's, presumably trying to confuse people; so the 1st Ray's became Original Ray's, or Famous Ray's, or Famous Ray's Original - people (I think including Seinfeld, but not just there) have joked about the confusing naming history.
Anyway, washerdryer gets it. As do Po-Mo and Ardent.
Hey guys, whaddya say we go out for some pizza? I know this great place, they don't even clean the tables between customers. Wrap the pizzas in butcher paper. It's awesome.
"pizzeria pie" - which phrase I contend conjures up a fairly consistent food-image in the minds of 90+% of Americans
I honestly don't think I've ever encountered the phrase "pizzeria pie" before. I've encountered "Pizza pie," "pizza," "'za," and "pie," but never "pizzeria pie." If someone were to invite me to get some "pizzeria pie," after I was done making fun of them I'd assume they meant some fancy authentic italian pizza, such as a wood-fired Pizza Margherita. If they wanted to go to a pizza joint they'd probably just iask if I wanted to get some PIZZA.
And, yeah, what oudemia said goes for the pizzerias near my house, too, at least some of them.
Fuck I want a pizza now. I wonder if the gas is back on?
145: "pizza".
Irrelevant. Remember 141?
138, is the definition of "pizzeria" "place that serves pizza"? If so, "pizzeria pie" is unnecessarily redundant. If not, what subset of places that serve pizza are pizzerias?
Yeah, you could call them all "pizza". That leaves untouched the status of the phrase "pizzeria pie".
Sifu is right, though, this discussion is idiotic.
My god, this is the number one stupidest discussion I've ever been a part of.
Records are made to be broken. Look to the future, not to the past.
Arugula is the best pizza topping you've never tried.
Anyway, washerdryer gets it. As do Po-Mo and Ardent.
w/d has no excuse; he lives in NYC. PMP, maybe.
Arugula is the best pizza topping you've never tried.
I have definitely had arugula on pizza and it is definitely great.
I was talking to the real Americans who have never tasted arugula, ben.
First time my Philly-born MIL ever heard of pizza, it was called "tomato pie," and she thought it sounded awful. This would be the mid-50s.
I actually kind of agree with you, Grumps, but I just didn't want to write "pizzeria pizza" way back when. Where I went to HS in northern NJ, we called them pies, so that feels natural to me. But I recognize the usage isn't universal.
It's not actually fancy!
Fresh buffalo mozzarella is fancy (in the US, anyway) by any reasonable definition. Without that, it's not really Margherita. The pizza I'm talking about - which every damn one of you knows, whether you're willing to admit it or not - is actually pretty close to Margherita: replace fresh mozz with industrial, maybe thin the sauce a bit, and you're almost there. Margherita crust is usually distinctly thinner, but not by much.
Yes, this is silly.
Well, yes. But if I weren't arguing with you people about food, I'd have to be writing about it for real, and that's less fun.
164: Fudgems make 'em fun, the corn makes 'em colorful.
I have no excuse for understanding the distinction that JRoth was trying to draw in 76 and that you questioned in 78?
I like pizza places where all you can order is a "pie", in one size only.
Arugula yes, corn no.
Hawaiian is inexplicably common, but pretty nasty. I had breakfast pizza a couple weeks ago: it seemed like a fine idea (scrambled eggs, bacon, maybe one other thing), but almost made me puke. Not sure why.
What about Nutella?
Fresh buffalo mozzarella is fancy (in the US, anyway) by any reasonable definition. Without that, it's not really Margherita.
Now you are adopting the standards of the pizza fascist! Whose standards literally make you seethe! No one believes this but him. And there is a world of difference between fresh non-buffala mozz and the Polly-O hard yellow stuff. The regular places I am talking about, capable of producing a perfectly serviceable if not perfectly fascist margherita have really good sauce and decent Italian ingredients. NJ is positively littered with such places. You can usually choose between fresh mozz and the hard yellow stuff, too. I picked up a pie at one on Sunday night. They have like one table, a cooler filled with weird soda, and pictures of Matterazi taped to the walls.
I wonder if there's an Italian message board somewhere out there where they're having an argument about how "una burger" obviously means a lump of minced pork between slices of Wonderbread and sure, you can get these "burgers loca di burgeri" that are a bit different, but come on people, everyone knows what a burger is!
I think probably not.
Fresh buffalo mozzarella is fancy (in the US, anyway) by any reasonable definition. Without that, it's not really Margherita. The pizza I'm talking about - which every damn one of you knows, whether you're willing to admit it or not - is actually pretty close to Margherita: replace fresh mozz with industrial, maybe thin the sauce a bit, and you're almost there. Margherita crust is usually distinctly thinner, but not by much.
Obviously it can't be the case that only one type of oven can make a Margherita pizza, but isn't it the case that most places that call their pizza a Margherita use a brick-oven, or a wood-fired oven, or some kind of oven other than your typical pizzeria oven? I wanted to bring up this distinction earlier, but was unsure of my terminology. I remain unsure, but am no longer letting that stop me.
173: Although British ignorance on the subject of hamburgers is completely understandable, given the state of that foodstuff on the Isles, but you should try to remember that they are not in fact made from ham.
Argh, eliminate the "but" and the first comma. I suck at the snark.
Now you are adopting the standards of the pizza fascist
What was making me seethe was the notion that only a true Margherita is "pizza," and that all the rest is a poor substitute. I am fully in support of keeping food terminology (relatively) pure. If what you're calling Margherita is a standard, East Coast, thin crust pizza, but made with fresh (white, comes in balls packed in water) mozz, then I'm not really buying it. Calling it Naples-style, or Neapolitan, is fine - it indicates that you're attempting to do something, but not necessarily duplicating an original. But if you're going to use that capital M, I want to see super-thin crust, white cheese, fresh green basil, and either a chunky red tomato sauce or actual cut up tomatoes.
I would note that Neapolitan pizza is a "guaranteed traditional specialty," and that there's a Associazione vera pizza napoletana which defines the dough in great detail.
I would also note that, apparently, "pizzerias" in Rome make more or less what I've been describing as "pizzeria pie," albeit in wood-burning ovens, while other shops - not called pizzerias - sell a variation that's more like deep-dish.
151: My god, this is the number one stupidest discussion I've ever been a part of. I've said that before, but this time I really mean it.
Agree, ratchet/simple machines and ap pwn this. (Actually I liked those two.) The fatuosity caused me to search for what idiot first mentioned pizza in tshe thread ... and Jesus Christ it was me! I had forgotten. (But it was in an on-topic and relatively innocuous way.)
My pizza should be arriving momentarily, you bastards.
It had better be goddamned delicious.
Is it a pizzeria pie though?
180: Me too! Fucking margherita from Totonno's coal oven. I dare you to tell them that non-woodburning oven and non-buffala mozz means it isn't. (Seriously, I wouldn't. They're kind of mean.)
Sausage pie from Ernesto's. It is, like Oudemia's, a pizzeria pie.
I remember having & really liking a Ray's Famous Original slice in the 1980s, but they've proliferated so much that it's become impossible to tell which is the real one anymore. There's one pizza place in Brooklyn called "Not Ray's" as a protest against this trend...It's also possible that the original started to suck at some point, or that my elementary school self didn't actually have such good taste in pizza (considering the other crap I used to eat).
Non-buffalo fresh mozzarella is still pretty damn good & much better than supermarket bricks of it. Lots of NY pizza places have a good margherita slice for about the same price as anything with a topping, but more don't.
The only people I scorn more than those who say "za" are those who would try to use it in scrabble. I have only encountered it in Sassy or possibly Seventeen magazine, not real life.
oudemia is correct. Totonno's is really good, & they are kind of jerks.
187: OK Katherine, so endgame, you're holding 'z' with an open 'a', only place to play it, next player is probably going out. You're telling me that you would eat the 'z'?
Katherine reads "Seventeen"? At the beauty parlor only, I'm sure.
One of my friends used to call it 'za.' Pizza with basil is awesome. And I'm beginning to think JRoth is arguing with himself. Sort how like if the U.S. had to enter into Iraq now and pick a side, we'd end up on both.
189: play it and get challenged and lose, left to cry into your pizza.
192: get challenged and lose,
Hmmm, so what dic do you play with?
The only thing that sucks more than pizza is analytic philosophy.
195: Pizza is Italian like Gramsci or Negri, and thus continental . . QED pwnage!
But if I may wax positivist for a moment? The box my pizza just came in? Totally says "pizzeria" in big red letters. "Pizzeria napolitano," in fact.
The most pointless thing I have done on the Internet.
196: But if I may wax positivist for a moment?
When you get mooned in the eye and you dare not ask why, that's Tractatus.
Now I want to call Vito's and get dinner...
50. In order to qualify as an "orgy", there must be more than three people involved. If one is a person short, the solution is to call out for pizza.
The image and title linked in 197 gets it exactly right.
Dear lord does oud's look a 1000 times better.
203: Totally. Seriously, Tweety, regular old cheese pizza? Not what I would expect.
204: That appears to be sausage pizza. But I may be bamboozled by shadows and air bubbles and cheese brownings.
I think they look equally good. Since I'm not hungry right now, I would prefer oudemia's daintier and more subtle offering to the one designed to be eaten as quickly as possible.
I would also note that, apparently, "pizzerias" in Rome make more or less what I've been describing as "pizzeria pie," albeit in wood-burning ovens, while other shops - not called pizzerias - sell a variation that's more like deep-dish.
In Rome, that's kind of right, but you also get fast-food pizza joints, which output deeper dish pizza things.
But this is the kind of guy that calls Naples Napoli in English...
I stand corrected. Still, oud ftw.
You folks are making me hungry. Now I just have to find some place not affected by the water or gas or whatever the current explanation is.
208: Pushcart Pizza, Salem St.!
205: it is sausage pizza, yes. Good sausage, too.
197 is awesome because I looked at the date on the picture and realized that today was not April 30th.
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Let's hear it for ultrasonic ranging!
Your proximity is no secret to me!
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What was making me seethe was the notion that only a true Margherita is "pizza," and that all the rest is a poor substitute. I
That's kind of weird, JRoth, since absolutely no one had espoused that notion. I'm even less strict than the VPN about what I'll call Margherita!
212: Oh, I know that now; I misunderstood your 99 to be making an substantive claim about food, as opposed to a bitchy claim about phrasing. If I'd read your 99 correctly, the response would've been more along the lines of, "No shit, Ben. But most pizzerias serve pizza that is readily distinguishable from Margherita, for any value of Margherita worthy of the name."
I would also note that, apparently, "pizzerias" in Rome make more or less what I've been describing as "pizzeria pie," albeit in wood-burning ovens, while other shops - not called pizzerias - sell a variation that's more like deep-dish.
I thought I understood you, and that "pizzeria pie" was American-style thinnish crush pizza of varying degrees of success and deliciousness, to be contrasted with both deep dish and pizzas that aspire to an Italian mode, which until recently were all but impossible to find almost anywhere in the US. But Roman pizzerias really don't make American-style pizza, so I'm confused again.
(I also understood that "pizzeria pie" was problematic terminology, since the pizzas I took you to be contrasting with "pizzeria pie" are often found at pizzerias, but thought I had found the correct way to roll with that.)
I've never been to Italy; perhaps the Roman pizzeria pizzas are indistinguishable from Neapolitan, except for the cheese. My understanding from what I read was that Roman pizzeria pizza is midway between American and Neapolitan, but that could obviously be wrong.
Anyway, Sifu's and oud's pictures exemplify what I've been saying.
That is all.
Anyway, Sifu's and oud's pictures exemplify what I've been saying.
Right-oh! What I thought originally, then. Thanks.
In my experience [having been in Rome about a month ago] Roman pizzas are crappy. Mostly served semi-cold, with damp bases and congealing cheese.
I totally came up with the term Experience Maximizer independently. I'm copyrighting it now that you all think it's brilliant.
So Becks is your roommates all mad at you for mocking their craft?
Belatedly, I am listening to Roxy Music right now and am prepared to revise my opinion of them.
I still think they occsasionally errs in the direction of boring, but I will agree that they are good.
