I was lecturing about something tonight and ended up making a REALLY SHOCKING statement about Renaissance bestiality paintings that made half my class turn purple. I meant it, but it was a little, erm, mechanical. The whole thing was, indeed, because of poetry. Thanks, poetry!
Renaissance bestiality paintings
I had no idea this was even a genre.
You know, Zeus not being able to fuck like a regular person.
Of course you've seen these popular examples.
Actually I hadn't seen any of those.
Leda's pretty bizarrely proportioned, isn't she?
Allow me to clarify that the seemingly incorrect translation oudemia supplied was not her work.
SHE HAS TO BE TO GET THE ANGLES RIGHT!
It was something of that nature that I gave as the reason why Renaissance painters enjoy doing Zeus-fucking-as-animals scenes. It proves you can do some pretty weird shit with fucking-angles. This proved to my students that I have thought a great deal about this problem. They blushed, I assume, because they've thought about the problem too.
Of course, her head is way too small for no reason I can discern except making Swan Zeus look less ridiculous.
But look at her head. Imagine her standing up. This is someone getting the angles wrong.
The whole thing makes a little bit more sense -- the antithesis is more complete -- when you realize that "bluestocking," though it makes for a rhyme, isn't really the right translation. "Diserta" simply means "learned" and doesn't have the always pejorative connotation of "bluestocking."
At the risk of being horribly explicit, the "solecism in a translation of a poem about solecisms" subtext is nice.
If I said my education had been shocking, I'd mean it was bad, not good.
The word bluestocking always makes me think of the Momus song.
The translation is Michie's, recently reprinted, with an intro by Sh/di B/rtsch.
How about:
Why won't I marry you, Galla? You've wisdom.
And cock often brings us to solecism.
or
Why won't I marry you, Galla? You've been schooled
Cock often makes us speak like fools.
I'm with Asilon on her understanding of "shocking" here, given that Michie was an Englishman born before WWII.
Why won't I wed you Galla?
You're already a PhD,
While I'm still fucking up with my dick
Pretty regularly.
I see my error and the OFE's merit. 'Nostra' is our, not us. Oops.
Why won't I marry you, Galla?
You speak Greek.
My cock very often misspeaks.
Taking a further measure of poetic license:
Why won't I marry you Galla?
You are schooled.
While I by my little head am ruled.
Why won't I marry you? You've been to college,
While my dick's still lacking some basic knowledge.
oudemia should now publish in this thread the rest of the material she sent to Ben, so the assembled multitudes can have a crack at it.
You ask why I won't wed you? You've done your dissertation --
My little man has doffed his cloak and missed his education.
(I have an unnatural love for poulter's measure. Also, I felt the word "diserta" deserved a wink.)
Why won't I wed you Galla? You've graduated
While my cock is still working on breadth requirements.
Why won't I marry you?
The reason is because of my cock.
Won't get wit cha Galla cuz you did the whole grad school/plus my dick's all limp from bein' swum in the wrong pool
Wed education?
Shocking lack of the other
No cock left behind
Michelangelo is dabbling in Mannerism, you see! The elongated form allows him to attend to certain details that would be obscured in a more realistic expression. Leda may be sleeping, but those curled fingers look awake to me. The gourd shape of her figure cinches the composition--she's interacting with the swan's face on one plane and on another he's reaching for that suspiciously tucked fold of red velvet with his oddly placed tail feather. I've been thinking about this image a lot recently, because I am a pervert.
"i am x something shocking" means "the manner in which i am x would shock you"
why it will shock will depend on the sensibilities of the "you" about be shocked: viz it might mean "i am very very x" or "i am not remotely x" depending
(tho the "very very" reading does feel the more usual) (of course if it's a solecism it doesn't matter if it's wrongly used as the underlying point will be the same!)
the tricky bit about the original translation is this: is the speaker using his cock as a metonym for all of himself = the speaker is shockingly educated, meaning (to a bluestocking) BADLY educated? or does he mean -- to a frigid old bluestocking -- that it really is his COCK that's highly educated ie he knows too much about fucking and wd be bored w.her and her bookish ways?
Now in free verse:
I wed thee not, dear Galla, for you own
a sheepskin testifying to your ken
my cock by contrast knows it's prone to err
and thus prefers the lambskin to the gown
Why won't I wed you, Galla? My pecker is a chicken.
Your quick and lively mind makes him refuse to thicken.
28 made me grin.
Your educated ways don't make me cum
Cuz Galla my dick is straight up dumb.
I forgot the current status of "cum" versus "come", but believe I went for the non-approved option. I do not care.
You need to translate "cum" out of the Latin, sir.
I like it when people give me charity I don't deserve. It makes me feel entitled.
I forgot the current status of "cum" versus "come", but believe I went for the non-approved option.
Indeed. Deprecated.
No, Gala, we can't get hitched; you're a bitch PhD,
and my cock's just a little bitch.
i like translation threads
so which one is the dirty word, all look so scientific
Why will I not wed you, Galla? You are classy enough for the ball,
But my cock produces only a thick southern drawl.
Tangentially, I'm lolling at the new "Can Matt Y go long?" blogads.
so which one is the dirty word, all look so scientific
'Mentula.' Lewis and Short say it means 'membrum virile,' which doesn't even seem to count as a translation out Latin. Wikipedia has a little argument for why it should be translated as an obscenity.
i thought it should be saepe vs facit, counted both words until 10 and the guess fell on facit, other words' meanings i thought i can guess somehow, wrong
mentula sounds pretty word for its meaning, a flower name like
forgot to include, sorry
Thank you, Mr. Beamish.
You need to translate "cum" out of the Latin, sir.
cum laude, vs. come loud
or something.
Forgive me, Gala, I've felt no desire
Since you critiqued my dangling modifier.
it's the second time i read Gala as Cala
when i read CN it becomes CN(N) and have to erase the (N) afterwards, something wrong with my eyes
i applaud to all and i liked best many
47. oudemia will correct me if I recall wrong, but Catullus uses mentula to refer to one of his enemies, as in dickhead.
My ignorance of the coarse, much less the fine, points of Latin allow me to speculate on two very different meanings.
1. Because you are a slut. (Schooled in what exactly?)
2. Because I am an unlettered dick. (Mentula as a general insult rather than the object itself per 32, I have no idea if it was ever so used.)
Either what he's saying literally is that the girl is educated, but his cock often makes mistakes. In that case meaning he doesn't trust himself not to cheat on a refined wife.
Or, that she has learned plenty of good tricks, but his dick regularly lets him down. Take your pick.
Why won't I marry you, Galla? You finished cum laude, and my cock can only make you, at the finish, come loud.
Gala you are wicked smart
My cock just doesn't have the heart
58: thanks, I was too lazy to work it out.
No nups for us Galla your education
excepts a wang what's no good for cogitation.
Marriage, Galla? You're all class.
but this stupid dick seeks only fine fine ass
Possibly the nastiest poem in antiquity:
Das Parthis, das Germanis, das, Caelia, Dacis,
nec Cilicum spernis Cappadocumque toros;
et tibi de Pharia Memphiticus urbe fututor
nauigat, a rubris et niger Indus aquis;
nec recutitorum fugis inguina Iudaeorum, 5
nec te Sarmatico transit Alanus equo.
Qua ratione facis, cum sis Romana puella,
quod Romana tibi mentula nulla placet?
Although that rapey Archilochos ode is close.
So the virgin/whore dichotomy predates Christianity? Huh.
63: Fuck it, Oudemia, stop that cool classicist superiority and give us a translation.
Yes, that's extremely nasty, and should be quoted at all the tosspots who go around saying "Oh the Romans weren't racist". More Martial? Wasn't something they gave us at school, oddly enough.
So geeky classicists get their Phds so that they can talk about naughty poems?
Why didnt anyone tell me this before I went to law school?!?!
Yes, more Martial. I'm doing an independent study on ancient invective with a kid who is a working stand up.
It's super racist! And sexist! And kind of anti-semitic! A hat trick of nasty!
I'm a lady.
Oudemia gets too hungry, for dinner at eight
She loves the theater, but doesnt come late
She'd never bother, with people she'd hate
Sweet Galla, curse thy erudition,
which brings my humble cock to falter.
Lamentably, in this condition,
we'll never stand before the altar.
So geeky classicists get their Phds so that they can talk about naughty poems?
Early modern English writers used to put the dirty bits in Latin. This was to encourage kids to study. Locke's Essay has a Latin passage discussing a man who only has sex with donkeys.
75: a translation should never improve upon its source material.
73: KR's version brings to mind Randy Newman's "A Wedding In Cherokee County" on the perils of going through with it.
I will carry her across the threshold
I will make dim the light
I will attempt to spend my love within her
But though I try with all my might
She will laugh at my mighty sword
She will laugh at my mighty sword
Why must everybody laugh at my mighty sword?
I'm a lady.
All the dicks love educated ladies around here.
hate to disagree, but I find 73 too flowery and British, lacks snappiness.
63: Fuck it, Oudemia, stop that cool classicist superiority and give us a translation.
D.R. Shackleton Bailey renders it:
You give your favors to Parthians, you give them to Germans, Caelia, you give them to Dacians, nor do you despise the beds of Cilicians ands Cappadocians; and to you comes sailing the fornicator of Memphis from his Pharian city and the black Indian from the Red Sea. Nor do you shun the loins of circumcised Jews nor does the Alan pass you by with his Sarmatian horse. Why is it, since you are a Roman girl, that no Roman cock is to your liking?
hate to disagree, but I find 73 too flowery and British, lacks snappiness.
The problem with "snappiness" is that it always leads to using dated slang.
Good old Shackleton Bailey. I guess I'd want to translate the very last bit, "What? Are Roman dicks not good enough for you?" Just to get that extra touch of thuggishness.
This whole thread brings to mind Catullus's 16.
Just to get that extra touch of thuggishness.
But isn't the preceding actually not very thuggish? "et tibi de Pharia Memphiticus urbe fututor / nauigat, a rubris et niger Indus aquis"—good lines! And rhetorically even a bit high-flown.
87-88: You don't get slang much dateder than that.
Seriously, whenever there's a new translation of some epic or classical work, and the reviews all say it's more relevant to today's world than ever before, or even just that "it's more readable than ever before, but retaining all the brio and energy of the original"...what that means is that it is full of stuff like "Yo, Alcinous! This is one swell shindig, and your dancers are hot stuff!"
I don't think Martial is confessing weakness, but just crudely rejecting a plea for marriage. I think 'disertus' means eloquent rather than educated.
Why don't I want to marry you, Galla? You're eloquent.
My cock often commits solecisms.
I think that's a pretty literal (if prosaic) translation.
Is there an English word for "solecism" that would make sense actually spoken by one person to another casually?
God you are a bunch of literalist philistines. I would stretch a point and use a less cliched metaphor, summarising the same sentiment as:
"Bye, bye, its been a sweet love, though this feeling I can't change;
But please don't take it badly, 'cause Lord knows I'm to blame."
by the way, bastards, does anyone know if the film "Iron Man" has the song "Iron Man" on its soundtrack? I'm fucked if I'm going to see it if it doesn't.
Actually, 93, the theme song is Phoebe Snow's "Poetry Man". throwing the viewer for a loop in that decadent inj-oke way.
93.last: the ads certainly do, so I think your odds are good.
God you are a bunch of literalist philistines.
Dsquared doesn't get the post title; dsquared doesn't get the post title!
By the way, the half-Latin, half-Middle English couplet:
"non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli"
is the earliest known use of the word "fuck" in the English language.
96: of course I did you ridiculous little man. An alternative translation would be;
"If I stayed here with you girl, things just wouldn't be the same;
For I'm as free as a cock now, and this cock you cannot change"
A cursory search reveals no evidence that "Bitches Ain't Shit" has been translated into Latin. This surprises me a bit.
100: Yes, the great anthem of the exhiliration of finally acting on latent homosexuality.
Is there an English word for "solecism" that would make sense actually spoken by one person to another casually?
'Talks wrong'?
I would use "solecism" in casual conversation and so would my dad, so there.
54 i can translate it into my language, but you won't understand
i recalled an old joke
a little boy asks his father why the monks at the temple chant in a foreign language (Tibetan)
the father answers that god does not know Mongolian
dsquared knows Lynyrd Skynyrd?!? Wow.
guitar hero/rock band.
D^2: Yes, the song is featured, near the end. Not as prominently as one would hope, perhaps, but it's there.
And the movies is tied with Batman Begins for best superhero movie to date.
Batman Begins is way better than Iron Man. But Iron Man isn't bad.
Iron Man in the soundtrack = special effects involving explosions
Carmina Burana in the soundtrack = special effects involving mythical creatures and/or dismemberment.
In all other respects, these movies hereby described are interchangeable, if not indistinguishable.
In all other respects, these movies hereby described are interchangeable, if not indistinguishable.
Knecht is Anthony Lane? Who knew.
read in 107:
the father answers that god does not know Mongolian
That's really funny.
Oudemia, Jesus, w-lfs-n, Alameida: Even in the twentieth century explicit sexual passages and dirty jokes were translated into Latin. Von Gulick's "Sexual Life in Ancient China" did that, though a second edition may translate them. So does Budges translation of "The Laughable Stories" by Bar Hebraeus, a Jacobite Bishop in Mongol Persia. Here's an opportunity to put your rad language skills to practical use.
Someone should give me a good Latin dirty joke for my alternate dissertation.
114: Old school lexica worked thusly: Greek naughty bits were translated to Latin, and Latin naughty bits were translated to either different Latin, or, more interestingly, Italian.
E. M. Forster's novel Maurice begins with a group of young men translating, um, some Plato, maybe the Phaedrus in a don's office. As one fellow is reading along, the don interrupts him: "Omit! A reference to the unspeakable vice of the Greeks!"
Any dirty joke about philosophy would be good. All dissertators are whores or some such.
Not Latin, but Marx is best here: "Philosophy stands in the same relation to the study of the actual world as masturbation to sexual love."
Geez oudemia it would have been really handy to have that quote at hand when I was baiting analyticphilosopher.
123: Oops! You really were a one-man tour de force that day though. Bravo!
123, 125: I've been around here long enough now that the direction of that discussion was not a surprise, but the seeming depth of bitterness and repressed (and expressed) fury were still a bit statling. Not wishing to rekindle, I'm sure I can find it all on Standpipe's blog (or some specific place in the Archives?), but just saying.
Did you hear about the Analytic Philosopher Coyote?
Chewed off three legs and still thought it was making progress getting out of the trap.
If only someone had shown it out of the fly-bottle.
