that's right, I'm the new poster! ogged (PBUH) really felt strongly about using the 'hide more' feature for long posts, you know.

You make good points. One difference I notice between alcohol and opiates is that it takes much longer to get physically addicted to alcohol. The physical effects on the brain take longer to happen.

But yeah, alcohol reduces inhibition meaning people may rage. I've seen an alcoholic rage and it is awful - imagine the most out of control vicious raging maniac possible.

By comparison a heroin addict nodding off is no threat at all.

Still while I think it is useful to discuss the real effects from drugs I am not convinced it helps much to try to compare them in terms of which one is 'worse.'

Of the two, heroin's the only one somebody in my house ever died using, but I guess there's still time.

Which is worse, HRC addicted to heroin, or Obama addicted to alcohol?

Or Ron Paul chugging cough syrup?

I remember seeing this chart (the first one) when a relative was in rehab for both alcohol & heroin, and thinking: "wow, maybe heroin wins the all around title, but alcohol makes a strong showing (whereas marijuana barely rates)". And you can argue that the "dependence"/likelihood of addiction measure is social as well as physical--that the legality & social acceptability of alcohol make using in moderation in a way that doesn't screw up your life far more likely.

ogged (PBUH) really felt strongly about using the 'hide more' feature for long posts

He was a grower, not a shower.

I agree with Alameida's broader point about the relative harm potential, and I think the argument for legalizing heroin is pretty persuasive for those same reasons. But I suspect (without really knowing the neurobiology behind it) that there is truth to the belief that addiction is a more likely outcome with H than with booze.

There is the speed with which one can become addicted (as TtC points out), and there is the buildup of tolerance, which steers the user toward ever higher doses. And finally, there seems to be some kind of genetic proclivity to alcohol addiction, in the absence of which a person can drink moderately every day for years without developing any physical dependency, which can't be done with opiates.

Thanks for this post Alameida.

I have been talking to Friend 1 for the past few days about concerns/suspicions that Friend 2 has a drinking problem. (She quit following treatment several years ago and is drinking again based on the conclusion that she never really had a problem -- so my insistence on using words like "concern" or "suspicion" with respect to the problem are clearly my own denial... )

Friend 1 called me this morning to say that she realized that she might have a problem. She's finding a program immediately.

This is not a problem I really know much about and helping feels like something I'm not equipped to do. Your post is some encouragement.

I'd more or less agree with this, that bad alcohol use is worse than bad narcotic use. Maybe it's easier to be a casual drinker, though. I'm pretty un-keen on the 12 step stuff but I am impressed this woman can keep up while living w/ a using husband. My impression (gathered from all sorts of sources) is that usually the hardest part of quiting drugs (or probably problem drinking) is that you usually have to quite your life-style. You can't keep the same friends, hang-outs, etc. Those things as much as the drugs themselves are what make you go back and at least in most cases are really what have to be given up. Once you can do that the rest isn't so bad. So, I'll be surprised if she can make it and pretty impressed for sure.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again,* junkies are kind of arseholes in ways that just go beyond the petty crime. Self-centred, ignorant, and self-pitying in ways that can make them total shites to be around.**

The social consequences of heroin (not including property crime) -- needle-sticks, children raising themselves because their parents can't be fucking bothered, etc -- are massively less damaging than alcohol but, nonetheless, it's pretty easy to build up a dislike for heroin users.

All possible good wishes to someone trying to stop using, of course.

* and really, seriously, no offense intended to anyone here. There's no easy way to talk about this without it sounding like insults are intended, but they really aren't ...

** of course I realize that a lot of people are using because their lives are already intolerable in other ways but that still doesn't make them any easier to deal with as people.

it's my feeling that the husband is either going to get his shit together or end up back in jail, so I hope this terrible half-way thing won't go on much longer. I agree that it doesn't take very long to get addicted to dope vs alcohol, but it's not true that there aren't people out there using heroin only on the weekend for a long time and then giving it up completely. I knew lots of people like that, but because it's illegal and massively frowned-on, you're not likely to hear from someone that they do this. I think there's some element of self-selection, too, I mean, what kind of dumbass starts using heroin? someone really committed to getting wasted at any cost, right? but yes, the user/addict ratio is worse with dope. I'm not even so committed to 'alcohol is the worst' as to 'alcohol is a much, much more dangerous drug than its current societal status would indicate.'

junkies definitely are self-centered assholes of a peculiarly whiny and annoying type, so no offense taken, ttaM.

mean, what kind of dumbass starts using heroin?

Someone I used to know started using on a simple cost-benefit basis. He reasoned that a ten-quid bag would get him higher than ten-quid's worth of pretty much anything else. He was pretty smug about his logic, too.

alcohol is a much, much more dangerous drug than its current societal status would indicate

Yeah, definitely.

junkies are kind of arseholes in ways that just go beyond the petty crime. Self-centred, ignorant, and self-pitying in ways that can make them total shites to be around

Yes. And that can make one less-inclined to want to help. Friend 1 was trying hard to convince me that the things I have been pissed off at Friend 2 about are the addiction and not the person and should not cause me to turn my back. In retrospect, I understand now why this was such an important point to her and feel like kind of a shit.

I also think it's very true that different people have different affinities for different drugs; some people find opiates leave them cold (so to speak), some people never have much of a taste for alcohol, some people enjoy the all-you-can-ingest buffet. Just depends.

you shouldn't feel bad, di. being an addict does mean you're often unable to control your actions, but that doesn't mean it's not your fault when you act like a dick. other people aren't in any sense required to overlook it when you act badly, even if they accept that it's a disease in some important sense. it can be helpful to hear of other alcoholics acting the exact same way, just because that does make it clearer that it is often 'the disease' doing a lot of the asshole work.

I think that there are many patterns of alcohol use and abuse, not just two or three. One book I read listed moderate drinker, heavy normal drinker, everyday alcoholic, non-alcoholic problem drinker, and binge alcoholic. This is in approximate increasing order of severity. The everyday alcoholic and heavy normal drinker don't necessarily have dramatic problems coming out of their drinking (arrests, lost jobs, auto accidents, etc.), though they can have miscellaneous health problems, underachievement, unsatisfactory family lives, etc. The problem drinker isn't an alcoholic at all, in the addictive sense, but impulsiveness and repressed anger cause him to act out when he drinks.

Yeah, her ability to stay clean while her husband's using impresses the shit out of me. I started smoking again while visiting the boyfriend (and yes, I quit when I left and it's been fine). I couldn't manage to not smoke while watching someone I was living with doing it.

I might've tried a little harder if it had been heroin rather than cigarettes, but the point stands.

Someone I used to know started using on a simple cost-benefit basis. . . . He was pretty smug about his logic, too.

A heartening libertarian "just so" story.

17: this is my drug personality idea! I was thinking I could write a book, with quizzes, to help each person discover the drug that's perfect for them! like that goofy color theory about bein a 'summer' or whatever. "mostly a's: you are a cokehead! you love the sound of your own voice, can't stand to be overweight, and you are always on the go! bad matches: taurus, opium-eaters.

good night all!

The people I've known with the worst problems mostly or all had serious exacerbating issues such as loss of a parent, confused sexual identity, a schizophrenic parent, a history of being bullied, etc., and also spent considerable time in social environments where substance abuse and acting-out were accepted and even admired.

Is this woman Chinese?

18: Huh, I wonder where the weekly-to-monthly major drinking binges that are pretty common among the early-20s set would lie on that range. Hangovers about half the times, maybe enough to lose some memory every few months, yet never really interfering with anything apart from Saturday or Sunday mornings and the liver.

17: I think this is true of mental illness, too (as I was trying to explain to PK yesterday). And that in both cases, probably, you can't blame onlookers, friends, family, for deciding that they can't hack it--whatever's causing the asshole behavior--and pulling away.

OTOH, people who hang in there are definitely to be appreciated.

22: e.g. unfogged.

21: yeah you sort of can tell, can't you? "Little bit ADD, mellow but can never quite get your shit together? Try meth!" "Depressive and borderline alcoholic, but don't much like the taste of alcohol? Try Ecstasy!" "Goofy and non-too-motivated in the best of circumstances, but more self-conscious than is at first apparent? You'd make a great pothead!"

Someone I used to know started using on a simple cost-benefit basis. He reasoned that a ten-quid bag would get him higher than ten-quid's worth of pretty much anything else. He was pretty smug about his logic, too.

I've heard that rationale used as a rationale for drinking cider over lager. Not quite so convincing when it's heroin that's being talked about.

24: It would probably be in the heavy normal drinker / binge drinker area, unless accompanied by acting-out leading to objective problems.

The point of the typology was to complicate things, but things are probably more complicated yet.

That pattern probably is not stable in the long run, and will probably eventually settle down in a more generic mode.

24: there's a great quote from (I think) the guy who wrote Leaving Las Vegas along the lines of "Most people pretty much stop drinking at 25. Most of the rest pretty much stop at 30. The rest are lifers."

Too much money and too many friends? Coke is for you!

25: Yeah, I find that "the illness" explanation is useful but only gets you so far. It certainly makes it easier to forgive someone after the fact for asshole behavior that they really can't control, or at least can't control as someone else w/o the illness. But when you're in the thick of it, it doesn't help that much, especially in the many conditions where being in the thick of it correlates very strongly with resisting treatment. And it's not always easy to sort out what's within someone's control and what isn't.

My problem with cider is that in terms of planning an evening, you don't actually want to get falling-down-drunk as quickly as possible. Is it max ETOH for the buck, or is it best experience for a buck?

30: bored with your staid existence, but committed to convincing yourself you're keeping up appearances? Try prescription painkillers!

I have no idea what it feels like to be on heroin. Is it possible to do normal things? (Or meth or anything else for that matter. Pot & hallucinogens, clearly not.) Because it occurs to me that you can drink and still function at your job (hopefully it's not heavy construction work); to wit, the 3-martini lunch. So maybe that can push the addiction along faster as well as give one more of an "my drinking isn't that bad" kind of excuse.

Does your voice unnerve people with it's rumbly bass line? Try helium!

In terms of the "illness" part, one problem is that if it's an illness you're obligated to accept treatment and follow the doctor's orders, and even ordinary patients (cardiac, diabetic, etc) often resent that. But on top of that, it's not your body that's sick and has to be treated, but you, or your "soul", so that until you're treated pretty much everything you do is wrong. So being declared "sick" isn't significantly better than being declared "bad".

Yeah, I find that "the illness" explanation is useful but only gets you so far.

"Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. 'Goddammit Otto, you're an alcoholic. Goddammit Otto, you have lupus.' One of those two doesn't sound right."

-Mitch Hedberg (who died of an overdose in 2005)

35: does your high, squeaky voice and ability to focus on simple tasks like sitting up impede your progress in the world? Try nitrous!

So heroin is readily available in Singapore despite the reputation for draconian penalties? Or is the reputation undeserved?

Pot & hallucinogens, clearly not.

With time, it becomes second nature to do normal things on pot.

With time, it becomes second nature to do normal things on pot.

With time, laying around the house dreaming of the cereal aisle at the grocery store seem normal.

21 would be an awesome book. From the description, I'm afraid I'd end up being a cokehead, though, and apparently no one likes them.

Having smoked pot like three times in my life (and never actually getting high), I didn't know you could get past the "Wow, that's, like, my hand, man. Cooool." stage.

32: I had a really tough time in England until I realized that etoh content in lager and cider varied considerably.

The stuff I got at the liquor store was clearly labeled and it seemed to range from essentially nothing to 10.5% (maybe more, I am open to correction on this).

My problem was that the pubs don't list that kind of thing and I think there can be a certain amount of 'surprising' the new guy. I should have suspected that Elephant beer and Copperhead Cider were very strong.

40: I dunno, I've always found programming when baked to be very complicated. I know people who can do it pretty easily, but not me.

I didn't know you could get past the "Wow, that's, like, my hand, man. Cooool." stage.

You've never met me un-stoned, Kraabie.

45:
I dunno, I've always found programming when baked to be very complicated. I know people who can do it pretty easily, but not me.

My personal off-the-cuff assessment is that a regular buzz drops me about 30 IQ points.

Some people are functional on pot. "If you study on pot, take the test on pot". As my son and I decided, drugs usually make you more the way you are than you are already, so if you like to study, pot makes you want to study more.

34: I've known plenty of people who functioned very well at their jobs despite high marijuana consumption during or just before work. Mostly in the restaurant and video rental businesses, but still, pot's not really that debilitating for a lot of tasks.

I believe that ttaM reported that some prostitutes he knew preferred to work stoned, though he didn't name the drug.

"Goofy and non-too-motivated in the best of circumstances, but more self-conscious than is at first apparent? You'd make a great pothead!"

If weed didn't make me want to vomit, I could've been a terrific pothead.

does your high, squeaky voice and ability to focus on simple tasks like sitting up impede your progress in the world? Try nitrous!

My little brats stole the whipped cream canister out of the fridge once and hid behind the couch eating mouthfuls of it directly out of the can. Thing is, they weren't savvy enough to realize that you need to turn the can upside down, so they were getting major doses of nitrous oxide with every little mouthful. I figured out what they had been doing when their prancing around and laughing seemed a little...different than usual.

bored with your staid existence, but committed to convincing yourself you're keeping up appearances? Try prescription painkillers!

Been there, done that, felt like shit for a month with a lot of work piled up for later. I don't recommend it, as if that will change anyone's mind.

I like to think of your brain as an egg. And then, when you do drugs, it's like you have cracked the egg and dumped it in a sizzling pan, a la delicious breakfast.

My problem with cider is that in terms of planning an evening, you don't actually want to get falling-down-drunk as quickly as possible. Is it max ETOH for the buck, or is it best experience for a buck?

For the people I was thinking of, the goal was elevation of blood alcohol level as cheaply as possible. These were British students in the late teens/early twenties stage.

52: I think nitrous is like crack - expensive, very short high, want more real soon.

49: ditto for me, except the field was software engineering. I've never been one of 'em, though.

Thing is, they weren't savvy enough to realize that you need to turn the can upside down, so they were getting major doses of nitrous oxide with every little mouthful

Maybe they were rather more savvy than you imagine.

50: every bike messenger I've ever known preferred to work stoned on something or other.

55: sheesh, it's like they never heard of the ol' turkey baster trick.

56: it's not that expensive.

54:

I like to think of your brain as karst (limestone with cracks). Drugs are like water which temporarily fills in the cracks but erodes the rock even more when it recedes.

46: Many mysteries solved.

It's all about having practiced so you know how to do it right.

Or Ron Paul chugging cough syrup?

There's clearly a candidate-and-drug matching game waiting to be made. I'm thinking:

Kucinich <--> candy-flipping
Huckabee <--> meth
Romney <--> the hidden shame of Frappuccino

and so forth.

60: no kidding! I was wondering who had the weed at uDCon.

heebs, are you commenting high? Because 54 cracked (get it?) me up.

re: 50

I don't know any prostitutes. Never have, afaik. Well, I know one person, but she'd stopped doing it before I met her.

In retrospect, I'm not sure why I put "because" in that sentence.

Knew one person, I should say. They died ages ago [not drug related].

every bike messenger I've ever known preferred to work stoned on something or other.

Um, I'm guessing, given their line of work, that they preferred to work stoned on a bicycle, Sifu.

66: high people are funny, that's why!

What, wrong thread?

68: you'd think, but no.

64: and she's wearing space pants as well.

heebs, are you commenting high?

Let's just say I've been huffing scotchguard since the breaka-breaka-dawn.

re: 51

That's a transitional phase. Lots of people 'whitey' at first.

50: every bike messenger I've ever known preferred to work stoned on something or other.

Now that's one of the last jobs I'd ever want to do while stoned, though I have been fairly consistantly amazed at how coordinated one can be at an almost automatic activity when drunk. Our university frisbee team used to have indoor practices at 10 pm on Tuesdays (when we could secure the gym space, natch), so there were a reasonable number of times when I had a formal hall (dinner with shitloads of wine) beforehand and showed up fairly drunk, yet I still had little trouble making fairly dramatic catches or sprinting and turning at full tilt. If anything, my throws were improved.

Still... just doesn't seem right.

The only times I've scored well at the Competitive Promiscuity Tournaments is when I've been a tad tipsy.

65:

I don't know any prostitutes. Never have, afaik. Well, I know one person, but she'd stopped doing it before I met her.

Oh God there is so much a "Yo' Mama" joke in there but I'm not gonna say. Cause I'm too nice for that. Minnesota nice.

71: dude. Never huff Scotchguard.

Stick to Glade.

re: 75

Heh.

Mitch Hedberg

Man, totally forgot about him. That was a shame - some of the things I read by his fellow comedians were kind of heartbreaking.

73: biking after smoking weed is fun as hell, [ standard caveats sorry alameida didn't mean to turn this into that sort of thread ]. It's like a video game.

Kucinich candy-flipping
Huckabee meth
Romney the hidden shame of Frappuccino

Giuliani: Lithium
Richardson: Dexatrim
Fred Thomson: i.v. Aqua Velva
McCain: Metamucil
Edwards: collard greens

It's like a video game.

Holy crap, that's exactly what the drunken sports were like. I mean, I would feel like I was physically sprinting and turning, but when it came to anything with my arms, like catching errant throws or releasing a flick, it felt like I was just watching it happen. My brain would only just gear up to process "hey, there's a disc flying insanely fast about 3 feet to your right", and I'd already have it in my hand. Very odd, but pretty cool.

That's a transitional phase.

Yeah, that's what I've been told for years. Yet, every time I've smoked it or eaten it in food I've regretted it. OTOH, sweet delicious booze and I have an understanding: I don't drink too much and it doesn't make me puke.

The only times I've scored well at the Competitive Promiscuity Tournaments is when I've been a tad tipsy.

Isn't alcohol banned as a performance-enhancing substance by the governing body of that sport?

every bike messenger I've ever known preferred to work stoned on something or other

Many of my fellow messengers did, mostly on pot. Seemed crazy to me—riding a bike stoned can be pleasant enough, just not when you're zipping pell-mell through downtown all day. Plus, the forgetfulness thing. The one time I worked stoned, I remember riding up to some office building and thinking, Uh, what am I doing here?

re: 82

Regular use, rather than intermittent use is what's required. Not that I am necessarily recommending it, of course.

One of the other Brits knew the prostitutes, I guess, not ttaM. They all look the same to me.

84: oh, ditto. I don't know how they manage it.

H.R. Clinton: Concerta
Barack Obama: Weed, sometimes a little blow
Edwards: Cointreau and phenobarbitol
Giuliani: truckstop speed
Huckabee: oxycontin and peach schnapps

81: My bowling, pool, and foozball skills are all improved by alcohol consumption. Particularly with pool, I can make shots much more instinctively than I can while sober.

H.R. Clinton: Concerta

Heh. I was going to say Premarin, but thought it might not be received well.

improved by alcohol consumption

Darts too, but there's a window, and diminishing returns set in quickly once you move past it.

Alcohol also improves my score in the Game of Love.

Laydeez.

91: Yep, exactly. Enough to get you to relax and stop thinking about doing it and instead just do it (Alcohol: Your Own Personal Yoda).

But not so much that you lose major coordination.

Tancredo: PCP.

91+93: Quod videt.

Goofy and non-too-motivated in the best of circumstances, but more self-conscious than is at first apparent? You'd make a great pothead!

Brilliant. This is the kind of comment that reflects years of musing on the topic.

As my son and I decided, drugs usually make you more the way you are than you are already, so if you like to study, pot makes you want to study more.

Right. I know someone who wrote his dissertation stoned, another guy who used to step out for smoke breaks on his neuroscience tests. Because, you know, he naturally grooved on neuroscience. Like Tweety, I can't imagine it. My intellectual speed on pot would be, like, reading the same aphorism from Nietzsche 27 times.

93: you can get the same effect with acid, under the right circumstances.

Also, on the main post, I don't think it would have been at all controversial in, say, 1900 to say that alcohol was a much worse drug than opiates.

I also think it's very true that different people have different affinities for different drugs; some people find opiates leave them cold (so to speak), some people never have much of a taste for alcohol

Hi there. Walking the dogs yesterday a guy walks out of his house with a cigarette held fire end toward the palm, looking all nonchalant. I 'bout tackled him, but just sniffed hard and walked away.

With all the caffeine & nicotine & cold medicine, I still keep my pulse over 110 24/7.

86: It was OneFatEnglishman.

Fred Thomson: i.v. Aqua Velva

This one line means I will forever giggle at promos for Law & Order.

99: see, never been able to pick up cigarettes. Different physiology, different drugs.

never been able to pick up cigarettes

They barely weigh anything, you pussy.

We hired a husband-and-wife plumber team to do some work in the house we just sold, and yesterday he told me that the street I'm moving to is where he used to buy his pot. "Was that where we used to buy our pot, honey? Or was it [other street]?"

He assured me that they like to smoke a few bones [sic] now and again but they never get fucked up, or anything. Just like to mellow out and watch the stars. He did muse wistfully about his former friends who kept drinking after he quit and how much older they look than he does.

||

Howie Klein on Obama and the Blue Dog

His National Security Team was bad too.

I have to admit that I expected the bad news to come a little later than it did. It's not like my expectations were sky-high. I guess he decided to make things clear right off.

Klein mentions one of the Obama true believers laughing off his earlier warnings. But we can't assume that the Obama fans will necessarily feel betrayed now. They may be hardcore center-right themselves, for all I know, in which case all the things that bother us will be unproblematic.

|>

103: I'm too fat to smoke!

This thread is just making me want to score ....

107: It is a sexy, sexy thread.

I used to enjoy reading while stoned, but the short-term memory impairment really diminishes the intellectual returns. Cleaning the house, however, goes great with a little green.

One reason alcohol abuse is tolerated by society is that it has been around for so damn long. First thing Noah did after the flood is plant grapes, make wine and get drunk. Really drunk.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/noahs_insobriety/gn09_18-19.html

The Prophet, pbuh, banned alcohol for a reason, and it wasn't that Arabs get drunk like Indians.

Am I the only fucking tweaker in the house? Even a dietpill abuser would make me feel less lonesome.

105:I really don't want to hear it, Emerson. You were on me too hard for my Obamacriticism for months, and it serves no useful purpose. You just dragging me back down to my lifelong rage addiction.

111: I've done plenty of speed, in various incarnations. Don't like it much, though.

109: Not if you have guests coming over. The one time I smoked weed in the last 8 years, the neighbor kid smokes me up about an hour before I have a dozen guys coming over, and the house was a mess, and I had to finish the appetizers. Top 5 worst paranoid jag of all my many many years of weed use.

105: Clinton's "more progressive voting record" my ass, but I'm not surprised by this after Lieberman--though you'd hope that Joe's impressive loyalty would make Obama regret THAT endorsement. I get really tired of even the better half of the Democratic caucus--Pelosi, Obama, etc.--treating their liberal supporters as ATMs & then ignoring our priorities on policy. For a strong comments-supporter, I haven't donated to Obama this calendar year, or done much of anything to volunteer, because I am so very, very, very disgruntled about how impossible it is for an unconnected-but-perfectly-well-qualified person to do ANY policy related volunteering (and having the proper email address to send the earnest memo that then gets ignored would count as "anything" in my book, but there has been no opportunity to do this for A BLOODY YEAR AND A HALF).

112: Yeah, I don't need *any* help not getting enough sleep, thank you very much.

Regular use, rather than intermittent use is what's required.

Sounds like work. If I were that motivated I wouldn't be trying to get stoned.

I actually like the staying up, but not the feeling cruddy. Ritalin, sure, yeah, bring it on.

The drugs-and-alcohol discussions have a way of making me suspect that my life is as boring as I think it is, but, on the other hand....

I actually like the staying up

Yeah, but I do that already without amphetassistance.

115:I hate sleep. Don't much like eating either.

I used to spend days alphabetizing, though.

re: 116

Yeah, I think you have to like it enough [the feeling] to put up with the nausea for long enough that you stop getting the nausea, if you're one of those people that whiteys easily.

I've decided the only thing I like doing regularly is drinking. I like drinking, a lot, but, luckily for my liver, I don't like being really drunk.

119: For example, between yesterday's and today's workdays, I slept from 8:45pm-10pm and 4:15am-6:30am.

Crooked Timber is having a Perlstein thread. I have seen blogs look at Obama and say, well, time to work for progressive congresspersons. What 60s studies should be about is neither the Presidents or the streets, but how America got those wonderful Congress from 1964-1974.

Like I said in another thread, I think one of Obama's goals is a better class of Republicans. But that leaves the left out, in a totalitarianism of centrism. So WTF else is new?

79: never tried biking, but biking stoned is a blast.

122 - christ! Is that insomnia or devil children? I'd soon die on that sort of schedule.

skiing stoned, dammit. Of course I did nearly die once, but it's still fun.

124: commenting stoned is fun, too, eh?

91: this is true with darts and pool, sure, but oddly the more I drink the better I bowl. I don't know why.

Is that insomnia or devil children?

Insomnia, though I'd have slept longer in the morning had children not come bouncing off me. As is often the case, I don't feel tired at all today, though I notice I haven't gotten much work done either.

Swimming stoned is nice, as long as the pool's not busy.

127: yes, commenting stoned is a blast, and a nice distraction from practicing law stoned.

There are no things that are not good stoned! I think we've had this conversation before.

I crack myself up more easily when commenting stoned.

Crooked Timber is having a Perlstein thread.

I've been resisting being all braggy, but humility and non-name-dropping be damned. I'm in the acknowledgements, though my role was so minor that it really doesn't warrant it. Rick's nice like that.

But I don't smoke anymore because I LOSE MY MIND.

131: I hear that's fun too, though.

Delurking to share:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc&feature=related

133: I tend to be much more random and surrealist when commenting stoned.

91: this is true with darts and pool, sure, but oddly the more I drink the better I bowl. I don't know why.

The tunnel vision you get right before you pass out is probably helpful in bowling

134: I'm in the acknowledgements too!

Sorry again about writing my name in your book, honey. You would have laughed if you'd been stoned.

re: 132

I can't possibly imagine what it'd be like to step into the ring, gum shield in, gloves on, but stoned. Not good, though, I'd bet.

It was a joke, Sifu. I'm not actually stoned right now.

Relevant link.

134: Too cool, Kraabie.

142: oh, I know you aren't! (wink, nudge, gently shove, kick under table, tap nose, *cough*)

141: maybe not good if you want to win. But maybe not bad if you're willing just to lie down on the mat in forfeiture while laughing at the silliness of stepping into a ring to hurt and be hurt by someone you neither know nor dislike. And maybe that's not a worse result in the end.

I'm in the acknowledgements, though my role was so minor that it really doesn't warrant it.

You are? Sweet! I read through them when I finished the book and totally missed it. I'll have to go back and look.

146: Um, she's not in there as "Sir Kraab", Josh.

But if you send me your copy, I'll put my name in the acknowledgements for you.

147: Contrary to the spirit of this thread, I wasn't actually stoned/high/drunk/tweaking when I read the acknowledgements.

Although reading the book did not infrequently make me feel like I needed a stiff drink.

Getting back on crank & weed would be certain to stop my commenting and starting a blog. Even I would be too embarrassed to post the 50k word underground notes I used to write in my journals in an unfogged thread.

But it's a silly thought, because a week at 180 pulse near age 60, well, it wouldn't be a week.

Not if you have guests coming over.

That's why you need to smoke up your guests. A friend of mine got stoned for the first time at a party and disappeared, which kind of freaked people out until it turned out he'd wandered off to clean the bathroom for a couple of hours. It wasn't even his house.

141: Ask Nick Diaz. Also, 136 to 135.

Very cool, Kraab.

Regarding Obama and the Blue Dog, it's possible that the more interesting thing going on here is the pushback that he's getting from some corners of the netroots. If it's severe enough, he may think twice next time.

re: 145

Worse than that; it's sometimes people I know and like.*

* it's also not all-out 'hurt the other person' stuff anyway. Still wouldn't want to do it stoned, though.

154: Yeah, throwing up in the ring is bad form.

throwing up in the ring is bad form

But not the worst violation of decorum.

That's why heroin is preferred to speed by four out of five boxers who use drugs.

I recall reading an interview with the kid who murdered my high school American History teacher.

The kid had been put up to the murder by my teacher's wife, who was his teacher at the juvenile detention center, and with whom he was having an affair.

In the interview, the kid describes how he dropped a tab of acid a few hours before committing the murder, with a shotgun, "because I needed to be messed up to do it."

That's completely at odds with my (fairly extensive) experience with the stuff. Usually all I could manage was sitting in a dark room listening to Pink Floyd.

PCP never gets any love in these discussions.

kid who murdered my high school American History teacher

Christ almighty.

I keep hoping I'll find a bottle of Adderall in my desk drawer, but it never happens. Back when I used to do plenty of drugs, they were not in the direction of enhancing academic performance.

Apo is a profoundly evil person; by a train of coincidence too troubling to be easily credible he is responsible for my daughtr asking just now me whether I would be happy to share a bed with a very fat transsexual literary critic of our acquaintance. Well, it was her retaliation for the noise I made when reading the link whose punchline is "I beat the crap out of him".

That's completely at odds with my (fairly extensive) experience with the stuff. Usually all I could manage was sitting in a dark room listening to Pink Floyd.

I must say, the wildly unpredictable results of tripping were the primary thing that kept me from trying it in college. All my friends did it, and generally spoke well of it, but there were enough stories to which my response was, "Wow, glad that wasn't me" that I just kept to the square and narrow.

Although none of my friends or acquaintances committed murder while tripping (AFAIK). So maybe I shouldn't have been so judgmental.

I keep hoping I'll find a bottle of Adderall in my desk drawer,

One time I went to fill a prescription, and when I got home, I realized the pharmacist had given me someone else's prescription for Adderall. Later I discovered that I get miserable emotional hangovers from using Adderall recreationally.

17 There's a passage in Malraux's La Condition Humaine where a wealthy Chinese opium smoker makes that point, only in a positive way. He suggests that everybody needs a drug for a happy life, and the European problem is that with alcohol as the only choice too many Europeans end up fucked up.

He did muse wistfully about his former friends who kept drinking after he quit and how much older they look than he does.

I quit drinking entirely about a year ago, and it's the improved skin that's been one of the biggest pay-offs. That and all the money I've been able to divert to more fun things.

all the money I've been able to divert to more fun things.

Like Oxycontin?

I quit drinking entirely about a year ago, and it's the improved skin that's been one of the biggest pay-offs.

Either "biggest" is supposed to be "unexpected", or that sounds totally not worth it.

My skin glows! Especially now that I diverted money from alcohol to pricy skin-care products. Anyways, I like it.

How much did you used to drink??

He suggests that everybody needs a drug for a happy life

Given that Lew Welch was Huey Lewis' step-father, I'm not surprised to learn that his songwriting was influenced by La Condition Humaine.

Oh, some. Enough that quitting was the bright thing to do.

My skin looks awesome now. It's not an entirely controlled experiment, though, considering that since I moved in with my honey I've also been getting a regular 8 hours a night, 2-3 meals a day, and whopping daily servings of organic vegetables. I haven't had a real pimple for months.

I bet all those thing matter more than the alcohol.

Huh. I've started drinking more in the last year or two, but my skin seems fine. I do have a zit on my cheek. But I'm starting to be all "damn, I'm 40 and I still get zits. W00t!" It's better than the drying crepe-papery skin that I fear. Plus, y'know, I'm used to it.

I am in favor of enough sleep, though. And expensive skincare crap. And living somewhere that doesn't have harsh winters.

My 60 year-old mother still gets pimples. After she hit menopause, she started to get blackheads in a more serious way, to her frusteration, as she can't really see well enough to get at them. Her daughters helpfully point them out and demand offer to extract them.

176: Have you told your mom to lay off the sauce?

176: Blackheads = exfoliate. That I should be able to manage. The zit in question is really just a function of having changed climates (and sleep, makeup, and eating) habits for 10 days while I was in Minneapolis. It's almost gone now. I just have skin that's awfully touchy about transitions.

Yeah, well, she's a livelong teetotalling Mormon, but I'll be sure to suggest it.

One of shivbunny's co-workers smokes a lot of pot, and it doesn't seem to affect his job performance. His employers know, and they don't care, because while pot use is fairly rampant (what else are you going to do in Northern Ass Nowhere, AB), pot use + a competent driller is rare.

178: Probably some dehydration on the plane, too.

The bad thing about going off the pill is the return of one or two zits per month, but when I whined about it, my best friend rolled her eyes at me. I got lucky in the complexion department.

158: Acid is really not a violence enhancing drug. It'll get you messed up though, so I guess it did the trick for him.

PCP is just bad news.

180.---One guy in the special effects crew my ex-boyfriend worked with was this Corsican hashish-fiend who rolled the strongest spliffs I have ever beheld and worked harder and better than any of 'em. The couple of days I spent on a shoot with that crew, I took a hit or two off one of his spliffs in the morning and was useless for the rest of the day. He'd work twelve hours, smoking the whole time. Everybody knew he smoked, but he was good enough that nobody cared.

Really, as an employer worrying about off-the-job pot usage doesn't make any sense unless there is an external risk. It's far less problematic than alcohol for employers.

181: Oh right, maybe going back on the pill didn't help. Doy.

Yeah, well, she's a livelong teetotalling Mormon, but I'll be sure to suggest it.

I think you need to hold a full scale intervention.

If I could access YouTube right now I'd link to a generally funny series of "Stop It!" episodes by the same people who brought us Planet Unicorn.

since I moved in with my honey I've also been getting a regular 8 hours a night

Eight hours of what?

182: Yeah, that's why the interview really stuck with me. (At the time I read it, I was tripping about every other week.)

I can completely imagine someone thinking, "I'm going to commit murder, I need few drinks." Or, "I'm going to commit murder, I should do a few lines first."

But I just can't imagine thinking, "I'm going to commit murder, I need to drop some acid."

187: Facials, obviously, what with the glowing skin.

Ain't no facial like an Iranian facial!

188: I can see it working with a lowish dose, especially if it's a speed-tainted variety, i.e. messed up enough to feel disassociative but not so fried as to be debilitated.

190: Ogged's used that line on me before, too. I still don't believe it.

I'm sure that if you ask nicely, ogged'll give you the first one for free.

191: also depends how habituated you are. You can become quite functional on a thousand mics after you've been doing it every few days for a while.

194: True. I've known people like that. None of them were murderers, AFAIK, but they were highly functional despite taking acid way too often.

4-5 days weekly high-dose use for 6+ months and I was pretty functional (on it or off it) except unable to talk very well for a few months. Might not just have been the acid.

196: It was probably the gaping head wound.

191 and following to 190, obviously.

Is no one going to mention the famous Doc Ellis no-hitter on acid ?

You are.

It was a rhetorical question!

Really, as an employer worrying about off-the-job pot usage doesn't make any sense unless there is an external risk.

Oh, this is on the job usage. (Plus, with them traveling to be at work, they're at work almost all the time.) Guy's fifty, doesn't seem to affect his productivity, and if they fired all the drillers that used pot, they'd be left with...shivbunny, and his cousin.

This does mean that their 'random drug samples' they have them take tend, uh, not to be random.

The kid was in a reform school with murderers and psychos, and he was being brainwashed by psychologists and cops. He had been disinformed about the effects of LSD.

I quit drinking entirely about a year ago, and it's the improved skin that's been one of the biggest pay-offs.

My skin is fine with heavy drinking. No need to quit.

Bob, I understand that many do not find sullen resignation a tempting mode of being. It really works, though.

what i observed today
after lunch i was so sleepy can't keep my eyes open when was listening to my colleague explaining me a new assay
then i recalled how cats rub their ears in the morning to keep themselves awake and i rubbed my ears, my eyes opened just like after having a cup of coffee, i got so alert and concentrated
surprising

204: Huh! Good idea! I find that when I'm in the middle of an interminable lecture and I'm losing my concentration, I find myself tugging hard on my earlobes. I wonder if it's the same principle.

couldn't

this question was asked way above, but you can perform ordinary life activities while high, or rather, low on heroin. I can remember going on the nod in an aristophanes seminar once which was no good, but provided you're not just shit-faced you're perfectly competent, you just feel a profound physical sense of well-being. as for dosing before committing murder---sheeit, that would be the worst idea ever. sex on acid is weird enough.

I always found sex on acid pretty great. Never did try murderin' nobody.

My friend who talked to me about his heroin experience worked as a logger for ten years while going on and off heroin. I have no idea whether he worked loaded but I rather doubt it.

can perform ordinary life activities while high, or rather, low on heroin.

See, e.g., jazz.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SEX ON ACID

But what about shrooms + alcohol?

Jeffs Dutson says he doesn't remember fatally shooting his 15-year-old girlfriend, Kara Hopkins, in the back of the head at a party last year. He says he doesn't remember taking off his clothes and ripping off hers while telling her he intended to have sex until she died. Or humping the floor and then a police car after he was arrested.

jesus, that would be a horrible way to die.

Re: work and opiates

One point of reference - opium has not only the codeine and morphine but also many uppers as well. It may mess with your sleep so much you'll end up chronically sleep-deprived and then similar to someone with narcolepsy.

Nodding off throughout the day is terrible for job performance and dangerous when driving.