I think this is more like inciting others to make fun of him on the internet.
It doesn't seem to be working. Incite harder!
Maybe this was my crappy post. Good to get that out of the way, then.
Well, if you're trying to get him to vote for Obama, the way to go is "You know, all nigers are not the same".
Unless he's an actual Republican who never votes for Democrats anyway OR a self-professed non-racist who inexplicably hates Obama.
Your thread was doomed. I spent an hour trying to drum up interest on the other thread with pictures of 600 lb. catfish. No luck. So I went on a 40 mi. bicycle ride, watched the antique tractor parade, came home, and the whole goddam site has about 10 new comments.
Motherfuckers.
Plans are afoot to make the pestiferous Lake Winnepeg carp into biofuel. I'd pay a premium for that, just for the "This vehicle powered by renewable carp energy" bumpersticker. I'd even buy a car.
He's in the oil industry and likes tax breaks. He was never going to vote for any Democratic candidate.
You probably should have head-butted him. Under the circumstances you could probably expect some clemency plus head-butts communicate a more personal message than other means of physical assault.
Then just tell him that you know that he's not a racist, but just wrong about everything all the time for other reasons, and thank him for the worst president in American history.
If something were to happen to him, God forbid, how much would Jammies get?
If something were to happen to him, God forbid, how much would Jammies get?
Nothing, probably, 'cause Republicans believe in bootstraps. Oh, and the Death Taxing libs are gonna steal it all.
Did you realize that Obama's middle name is Hussein? I object to that, simply because it's such a commonplace name in the Arab world. The rest of his name is so interesting -- why does his middle name have to be the swarthy equivalent of "Smith"?
Heebie, everyone loves you, but try not to post on weekends when the weather might be nice. And I mean LOVES you. But they're off doing the carnal desires thing.
Jammies' dad smells bad!
Oh, I like this. It makes me feel better about the generic "hippies smell like goats" remarks that go round here.
but try not to post on weekends when the weather might be nice.
Well, the weather can't be nice everywhere. What about our Southern hemisphere commenters, in the darkest days of a bleak, gray winter?
@ 11
That's absolutely wrong. 'Hussein' can serve as first name as well as last name. Smith usually does not. So they are not equivalent.
Heebie, what was the context? Did he try to make a joke or [inclusive] was he merely passive-aggressive?
15: I think he'd have been entertained if I'd gotten riled up.
14: in the darkest days of a bleak, gray
Isn't that what the NoCal folks are having?
Smith was a fairly common given name until about 1930: Link.
Heebie, you can bring him to the hog farm. That will show him.
OT: Remember me? Update: Two months later or so, no change. He's still not sure how he feels, and he has a hard time figuring out what love is, means for him, and can see himself as a father before he can see himself as a husband. WTF does that mean? What does it mean to love and be in love? I told him that it doesn't mean you change color. It's a feeling, not unlike the ones he expresses for me now (cares about me deeply, misses me when I'm gone, is concerned about my family issues and defensive of me against my mean dad, takes my problems as his own, can see a long term future with me and wants to be with me more than anyone else, past, present, foreseeable future...)
So, Unfogged people who gave me such good advice last time (or at least made me feel better about sticking it out and waiting for a while longer, and I am sticking it out until at least the next calender year): what is love? What does love mean to you? In the words of Billie Holiday, what is this thing called love?
I know what it means for me, but I don't know how, when, or if ever he'll figure out what it means for him. If he doesn't feel it now, after 9 months, does it mean that I'm just not (I hate this phrase) "the one" to bring out love from him? Again, he's never felt love before. Again, I speak from a place of a slightly bruised heart, after yet another difficult conversation. Sighhhh.
In that case: what merganser said.
20: Abby, I've heard a lot from men, even at the earliest dating phases, about how they don't know what they "want" and so they freak out. What I keep wanting to say is that no one knows what they want, but at least one can try to make decisions to choose things that make one happy, as opposed to choosing things that make one unhappy. Knowing what makes one happy seems a lot more useful than knowing what one wants. If I waited until I knew what I wanted from everyone in my life before having any kind of relationship with them, I'd probably never have any friends and never date at all.
Of course, that may not work in your case, since you do seem to have a clear idea about what you want. I never do, so it seems like a bullshit reason for someone to act crappy.
I don't have anything funny to say, heebie. I'm sorry about. But, I can empathize, if that helps.
I'm visiting my family right now. And my brother-in-law, who's a really wonderful guy in many ways, has become increasingly conservative through the years. Which is odd, because he used to be a bigwig in DSA. Now, though, he thinks that Obama's pander on FISA "was the right move. He has to get elected, you know." Which is all well and good, I suppose (though: not really). But the thing is, b-i-l always couches this stuff in political expediency and pragmatism, explaining, as we argue, that he used to work in professional politics in Chicago (true) and understands the cruel realities of the game in ways that I can't possibly (perhaps -- but so what?). And so, he's not really becoming more conservative, you see, but smarter.
What makes all of this especially annoying is that b-i-l also occasionally admits, in different contexts, that he's become increasingly fearful about "Jihadists", that he thinks that a little phone tapping isn't such a bad thing in service of national security, and that still, even at this late date, he sort-of supports the Iraq War ("Saddam was a tyrant. The world is a better place without him."). In other words, he won't just own his rightward lurch, but insists on claiming that he's the same leftie he used to be -- just older, wiser, and more experienced.
Because there are no hogs close at hand, I'm seriously considering punching him the face. What do you think? Really, though, I think I'm going to tell him that I don't want to talk about politics with him any more, as I prefer to think of him as a great father to my nephew and niece, a wonderful partner to my sister, and a genial guy. But if that doesn't work, I'll probably punch him in the face.
Say "If the people who voted for Bush in '04 had any pride, they'd recuse themselves from politics for the rest of their lives, at the very least." That's what I tell my Republican relatives. And then they return the favor by stiffing me at Christmas.
20: In my experience, a relationship with staying power is fairly transparent. You talk and share pretty openly. You're not constantly guessing. It sounds like you're doing that with this guy, which isn't good.
From what you say, he's holding back for whatever reasons, and that is not a good sign. You asked: "What is love?" There's no answer, silly. It varies. But you have to communicate.
21 -- I'm just back from the Austrian embassy, which provided beer, brats, and a number of big screens. Too bad we got outplayed for 90 minutes. I'd mention Europeans in sundresses as within the swipple range, but that would bring down the tone of the thread.
I bet Jammies' dad wouldn't look very good in a sundress.
I hate to be a party pooper, but if a guy stays undecided that long, he's probably never going to turn. Maybe he's too chicken to be the one that breaks it off. Maybe he likes what's happening on a month to month basis but not in terms of long term commitment. All bad signs.
I am, as everyone knows, the worst adviser possible on these questions.
21: W00000! Go Espana!
Noticed that on the US TV score they showed Spain as ESP, while for Germany they went with GER rather than DEU. Too many negative connotations?
Not sure what negative connotations there'd be--the US tv audience for soccer is rather on the young side.
Abigail, given the confusion that seems to come from talking about things like love that are legitimately hard to understand, I suggest you focus on specific and tangible questions. It kind of doesn't matter if he "loves" you as long as you are both getting what you need from the relationship. So if you need commitment, ask for commitment. If you need to know he cares, ask if he cares. But the love questions is so poorly defined, and many guys are so confused about what it means, that you aren't likely to get an answer that will satisfy you on that one. Just my 2 cents.
29: 9 months is not that long to decide on a life-long commitment, but probably long enough to know whether love is in the works. I don't know or remember whether Abigail is looking for the first.
And I'm not clear whether people here distinguish between love and a decision to marry.
Abigail, I'll say the same thing to you that I just said to a friend: Watch the feet. People can talk and talk about what they want and what they value, but if you look at what they actually do, you can get a pretty accurate (if rough) measure if what they're prioritizing.
In your case, he's clearly OK saying things about how much you matter to him. Does he live up to that? If he's regularly putting his own interests aside to accompany you to a family gathering for moral support, interrupting his important work deadlines to call you and check in on YOU (not complain about his work), making an effort to schedule time with you (coming home on time for dinner, suggesting a weekend away) and otherwise behaving like an equal partner who values and will sometimes put his partner in front of his own immediate needs, I'd be comfortable giving him a few more months.
Otherwise, I think parsimon and Emerson are right, and it's probably time to cut your losses.
Abby, a good starting question is "Am I happier with you than I am without you?" There is advanced work you need to do, but that can get the ball rolling.
[Oh, and "coming home on time for dinner" doesn't mean "expecting you to make it for him" -- I don't have any idea whether both or neither of you cook, nor how you've chosen to divide up the shopping/food preparation responsibilities. It just means "making it a point to get home from the office early enough to spend time together on weekday evenings," whether that is over take-out or microwavable frozen dinners or a gourmet meal.]
what is love? What does love mean to you?
Love Is I'm sure these have been collected in book format. Spend an evening with the dude flipping the pages.
34 is a terribly measuring way to articulate the matter. It sounds like it's talking to a child about how to judge relationships if you've never been in one. How weird! But fair enough.
Sees self as father more than husband seems to me to run against the grain that Witt is looking for, and strikes me as a little frightening. Is he saying he might just settle, so he can get started on offspring? Is he thinking that parenthood isn't an intensely coupled activity (or that his ideal isn't so)?
This is why people must live together for a while before they get married.
Because there are no hogs close at hand, I'm seriously considering punching him the face.
I'm seriously considering punching Yggles in the face, or maybe go bowling.
a terribly measuring way to articulate the matter
Yes, well, it's partially intended as a corrective for how easy it is to let our emotional responses (Oh my God, she said she loves me) or our own dearest wishes (I want him to be the father of my children) to blind us to what is actually happening.
It may not be valuable to Abigail, of course; it came after seeing several different friends suffer from years of being strung along by promises that someone was "not quite ready" (to divorce the first wife, to think about having a second set of children, to marry). In some situations, watch the feet is a much, much better predictor of what will ultimately happen to the relationship than anything that anybody says, or even believes.
watch the feet is a much, much better predictor of what will ultimately happen to the relationship than anything that anybody says, or even believes.
Agreed. Someone who acts with love is much more important than someone who says he loves or thinks he loves. If you're asking so intently for a verification of the second as proof of the third, is it because you don't have the first?
He's a wonderful partner, in terms of actions: he does value seeing me, spending time with me and on me, and makes me a priority. But he also values his own space and separate life. He spends as much time with me as he can, and it's more than he spends with anyone else or anything else, save work. He does set aside his own needs to be with me, and I do the same. That I don't have a problem with. He is just verbally undemonstrative and less typically affectionate than I am. He says that he shows his affection by spending time with me and having "little adventures"--and we do, wonderful little mundane ones, and we even have a secret joint writing project that started during a road trip.
But I guess I am just missing the certainty of his affections. In his actions, he shows that he cares for me deeply and is committed to being with me, and we often talk about the future as if there is one. But in his own head, and his articulated words about his feelings, he just doesn't know what he feels and whether this is "it."
He knows he likes kids and can imagine being that naive conception of a camp counselor type father. But he doesn't know, having never been close to it before, what it is like to be with someone long term (remember, longest relationship was 5 months in college), love someone with commitment, and spend every day with that person. I think it's the quotidian mundanity of marriage and commitment that he is not sure about, having spent most of his adult life as a free agent, more often single than dating, and dating only very casually.
I guess it's also that we're both at the age at which we'd marry, and so this relationship is already more serious than we expected it to be--the stakes are higher. I do want to have kids within the next decade. We were both surprised how good things are: comfortable, romantic, a true intellectual and physical compatibility, similar values, etc. So the question is, if after investing a year and half into this relationship (and we're at month nine)--do I bolt if things aren't headed in the direction that we both think this could? Do I bolt, saving myself the pain of investing another year in a dead-end relationship, and try to find someone new?
A friend says that it only takes a year to figure out if you love someone and want to be with them for the long-term. Is that a correct time frame? I know I could be with this man, but he is not sure about me, and that hurts like a motherfucker. It hurts because I love this man and want to be with him, but if he doesn't make it easy for me to stay, then I have to do the hard thing of leaving to spare myself the pain of loving someone who does not love you back.
44: I think I freak out when he acts unaffectionate, which is rare and particular in form, and more my definition than his. Again, he shows his affection by spending time with me and on me, but not by say, holding hands. And sometimes he doesn't seem to get that I want to see him really often, and so he doesn't inform me about his "I am busy and I can't see you" other plans until the last minute, making me feel like I'm the last priority. He's willing to work with me on this and value my schedule and time with me, and so I am feeling a little better. But occasionally, the small slights of scheduling and pulling away will make me feel like "you just don't care/and you don't love me anyway" and link back to this larger, deeper issue between us.
What is he waiting to find out? What does he say he's waiting for?
It sounds like you have very specific desires that he doesn't meet. Seems kinder to both of you to find someone who will give you the affection you want rather than expecting him to change. IME, those are things that make people compatible or not; the other things make you friends.
That is, if after nine months, a lack of hand-holding and love-saying is something you can't live with, I'd say there's a problem. As someone who doesn't hand-hold or love-say, I see my friends who do as these people who are lucky to have found the partners they've found, but I know I'd never be happy in a relationship like theirs.
43: Again, my own pattern has been that if you're not inclined to move in together after a year or so, there's a problem. You'll tend to have an honest conversation by then whether it's 'happening' or not, whether it's serious, and expect an honest answer. I can't imagine being "strung along" for several years in limbo. I don't view marriage and children as the ultimate goal, though: the question is whether you wish to be partners.
48: I keep wondering if we can compromise and find some joint resolution on this. A throwback to my MUN days. Like, is compatibility compromise or matching exactly? I don't know what to do. I love him and am happier with him than without him. It is hard to think of leaving. Maybe I have to think about this.
If you're both in your ready-to-marry years, which I'm guessing is your early-to-mid thirties, yes, you should be able to figure it out in a year. Put it this way: If you've been together for a year and you don't know, one of you needs to change either your mind or your habits for it to be right.
And every day you're with the wrong person, you're probably not meeting the right one.
I say this from a perspective of being recently very lucky in love. My advice in 35 was good when I was 23 and wondered if I should live after college with the woman I'd been dating for the last three months of senior year, but if you want to lock in a life partner, it's only a very early starting point.
51: Compromise would be great, but haven't you discussed this with him before? What are you willing to compromise on, for the sake of the relationship? What is he? Will either of you really be tolerant of that compromise, or is it something either of you would do grudgingly?
47: I don't know. Like I said, it is just not coming easily to him as it does to me, and I really wonder if he thinks that falling in love is so spectacular that you change color or something. He shows love, but cannot define it for himself.
Napi's got a good question, but I don't know if it's one you can get an answer to. If the answer to it is that he's waiting to be sure that he doesn't meet anyone who really is "the One" before he settles for being with you, you probably need to flee. If, on the other hand, he needs to reconcile himself to the mundanity of life (that is, getting married means admitting to himself that he's not going to lead that Antarctic expedition or whatever), eh, I don't know. Maybe people get over that sort of thing.
If you're happy on a day-to-day level, I'd give it more time and think about what you want longterm, and at some point you'll make a decision to leave or not.
Geez. That was helpful. Indefinite, much?
53: we are making progress on the scheduling and physical affection, and meeting in the middle. We are good about compromise. In fact, we can imagine building a life together, and are talking about which states we'd move to for my first teaching job, and how we'd raise the kids, and who'd shoot who first in the twilight years of senility. It's the larger, seemingly intractable problem of his not knowing what love means for him and not knowing whether he feels it for me that is hurting so deeply.
Holy crap, this guy sounds exactly like me. And if I may speak for him, it may be that he's happy with the relationship and sees things progressing well, but is a) afraid of commitment and b) very introverted in the Myers-Briggs sense of being much more comfortable when he's alone. The former makes it difficult to talk about love, since this constitutes a kind of promise, and the latter makes it difficult to spend every day together.
If any of this is true, you basically need to be patient, but decide when you need a hard commitment from the guy, and if it doesn't happen by then go find what you need elsewhere.
Women in their early to mid-thirties oughtn't be planning to start having children 'in the next decade.' Adopting a shorter horizon lowers the risk of learning some hard lessons.
55.1: I think it's the latter. I think he wonders: "is this it? all of my friends are married. they're all in these relationships where you can't go off to Antarctica anymore. Am I ready for that?"
I have made it clear that I just want love for now, but that I do want marriage in the future. But I don't want to get married tomorrow. I could wait a couple of years. But I think that he may think that saying "I love you," with someone so compatible, who loves you, and with whom you could build a life together, means "forever" and the death of independence.
Oh, that was crossed with a bunch of comments that all seem more useful than mine.
Something general -- a lot of reasonably happy relationships seem to fall into a lover/beloved pattern, where one person is sort of basking in the other's adoration, but isn't as demonstrative in return. That sounds unequal when I put it that way, but I've seen it work fine. How does he feel about your affection, whether or not he returns it in kind? Is he soaking it in, or does he wish you were more distant?
I guess I always imagine some day far in the future, when the excitement of thinking about the future is gone, when you're just in the day-to-day grind with a partner, am I going to be looking at my partner still saying, "God, I still wish you treated me like I asked you to"? Or will I look back and think those things I wanted from the relationship that I could never get were silly things? Will I look at friends who have the things I originally wanted from the relationship and feel jealous of them? Or will I be thinking, "How glad I am to have this particular person and not my friend's partner who does all that stuff I used to think was important?"
Abigail, why don't you move in together?
62 -- That was my read, but I was reacting to 52.
But I think that he may think that saying "I love you," with someone so compatible, who loves you, and with whom you could build a life together, means "forever" and the death of independence.
Yes.
60: He soaks it in. He doesn't mind my affection, and he does enjoy spending time with me, and it's a lot. Not moving-in a lot, but every other day at least, and weekends.
61: I used to want love letters and mix tapes. I have friends who get them, as well as frequent verbal demonstrations of love, fawning compliments, lots of PDA, etc. But I love _this_ man, and I can imagine a life without love letters and mix tapes, and I am learning what it means to trust in love and feel in love, not prove the love. So, thus far, given the other ways we are compatible, I'd rather be with this particular person.
My fiancee: "My advice is to back away from him and see what happens." Which is really hard to do, "especially for most women", but it's the experiment I want to know the result of too: does he want to be with you? "Did you negotiate him into a relationship that he would have backed away from, left to his own devices?"
The question of What Love Is is the kind of rabbit hole that smart people find themselves down. He needs to chill the fuck out on that point. It should be easier for him.
63: He's not ready to.
65: I know this can't be the real Mr. Adams, since he's sailing somewhere.
One of the things that different my fi from my wife and the women I courted between the two of them is that I haven't made her any mix tapes and I never really wrote her any of those pyrotechnical peacocky emails.
67a would be my advice, too. If he doesn't know whether he really wants to pursue this or not, give both of you some time off. If it makes him realize his life is unhappier and that he wishes he could pursue a relationship with you, then great. If not, better for the both of you. It sounds like you're stuck doing all the emotional labor in this relationship, and that's a shitty place to be in.
70: Back away emotionally? Or take a break? How long of a break?
This hurts so badly. I know I'm an emo former English lit major, but really, like a fucking library of sad poems and songs coming to mind right now as I ponder a break.
Backing away to see if he's really serious is the standard woman's tool, and I've always hated it. It comes off to me as emotional blackmail. Do you like me enough to jump through hoops for me? I realize it generates useful pieces of data, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
It sounds like the guy might OK with commitment, marriage and kids, but not with living together and I Love You.
My mom lived with a good but unromantic marriage for 40 years until death did them part. There were some rough spots but I was amazed at how positive her memories were. She did have a principled habit of forgetting bad things, though.
73: that makes no sense to me, but I am glad that your mom was happy.
What does it mean to have a break. btw? No contact until a defined meeting point?
72: We've had this discussion before, F. It's not about hoops, it's about the fact that that AA, who is a human with free will, is unhappy in her relationship. Her boyfriend doesn't want the things she wants. I've never done a trial breakup, but it's been done to me by guys who needed time to figure their shit out. It's not a "woman's tool," you shithead.
66.1, 67: If he's soaking it up, then I think pulling away some (not trying to be colder when you spend time with him, I can't see that working, just trying to spend a lot less time with him) is the way to go. The idea is that you'd be waiting for him to realize how necessary your being around and loving him is to him, and for him to therefore come around wanting to move the relationship forward. Or, he won't, at which point you know where you stand and can move on.
I dunno, maybe having a talk and saying "I think we'd both be happier if we moved this back to 'dating', rather than what we've been doing. Seeing each other on weekends, maybe a weeknight, but not together all the time." That might trigger either drifting apart in a reasonably timely, low conflict fashion, or his figuring out that he really does want to be with you in a committed fashion.
76 crossed with everything after 70, but I agree with Bear. As I said in 76, I don't think you need to break up even temporarily, moving back to a dating model where you don't see each other unless you've made specific plans would do the same thing.
Having only dated women, I've only been exposed to it in that regard, but I'm perfectly happy to admit that men may end up using this tool too. Still irritates me though.
If AA isn't getting what she wants, she should get it, either by coming to an agreement with the dude or by leaving and finding it from someone else. Passive-aggressive let's-see-how-he-reacts-to-this testing rubs me the wrong way.
76: but then that would make _me_ unhappy to spend less time with him. I can contemplate taking a week or two apart to think about the relationship, but reducing the amount of time we spend together is not the direction I want to move. I want him to figure things out, not spend less time with him.
There is one woman's tool here and that is Abby's boyfriend.
"Taking a break" is very hard to define, however. LB seems right on, although it seems as if a likely outcome is that he will be OK with a lessened situation, and you will have to realize that your mission is not to increase contact to ease your suffering, but to end it because he's not going to.
Or he could decide that boundaried dating is not enough for him, and it could be clearer to him why he wants you around all the time. I'm sorry it's hard for you, but the fact that it's so hard is a sign that it's not working.
Married people can go to Antartica. It gives them a chance to write love letters and give mix-tapes, which aren't really how post-newlyweds act. You just have to be willing to present a justification that makes sense.
Unless this is a euphemism of some kind.
79: The thing is, you know what you want, he doesn't -- you can break up with him because he doesn't know yet, or you can try to change the situation so he does figure it out. I know you don't want a more distant relationship, the question is whether he does.
If you make the relationship more distant, he'll either realize he misses what he had, and try and move things back to or beyond your current footing, at which point everything's probably good, or he'll be happier with the more distant relationship, which is your signal to fade off into the distance and go find someone who loves you.
82: But acting distant seems forced, not me, and not what I want or how I want to act. It seems like a ploy.
80.2 before 79, but addresses it, however uncomfortably.
I really think the "I need to know whether I'm in love" bit is adolescent bullshit. What if you weren't?
Self-obliterating giddiness should not be your overall objective at this point in life. It may happen here or there, but it should yield to something mellower and stronger. "In love" may cease to be a useful category. The great romances are written about fourteen-year-olds.
83: The ploy is if you pretend it's what you want. If you say "I need to set boundaries because I'm going to injure myself if I stay attached to someone for whom I'm merely convenient" is not a ploy.
86
That's really the key. If you do some kind of pull back, it needs to be communicated well. If not, the potential for misinterpretation is huge.
83: Yeah, I think trying to act emotionally distant when you're together isn't practical or likely to be successful. I was thinking of an explicit, discussed, "From the stuff we've been talking about, I think we both need more space, howzabout we drop back to a Saturday night date rather than spending all our time together." You're not trying to manipulate him, just looking at different models of relationship to see what makes him happier, and if it's a dealbreaker for you or not.
F is really full of shit. There's nothing wrong with trying to force the guy's hand. His dragging his feet is the problem here. Pulling back can either be step one of cutting it off for good, or a strong message to him that he's losing her, and to piss or get off the pot*. It would be up to him how to interpret the message.
I actually propose more than a scaling down. I think a real separation so both people can think things over, no real contact, with him knowing that it might really be the end. If he takes the initiative because he doesn't want it to be the end, that solves it. If he doesn't, that solves it too.
However, 74 tells me that it's more likely to end up with the thing ending. To me guys who are fearful of romance and intimacy seem even less likely to change than the ones fearful of commitment, and Abigail is completely uninterested in my mom's kind of marriage.
Heh. 88 crossed with 86 and 87, but we all seem to be on the same page.
The perfect solution would be for Abby to go to Antarctica, or some kind. The break isn't at risk of being misinterpreted (a real risk of the break option with this inexperienced guy) but he'll have some quiet to see what he thinks he likes best. Obviously it's hard to fit such things in, but, you know, you may never get another chance to take that West Coast/Yellowstone/Costa Rica/whatever trip. With a girlfriend, aunt, cousin, etc.
Too bad life doesn't often play along.
From my experience, having a break where you get to fuck other people leads to the relationship ending.
Remarkably, this was not immediately apparent in my case. Took about six months, and even then she wasn't willing to admit it should be over.
79: You have to prepare yourself for not spending much or any time with him, because that's one of the long term solutions. A trial period might be painful, but it might just be the beginning of a permanent separation.
If you're unwilling to pull away seriously, and he's unable to make up his mind, this could last as long as Cheney's Iraq War.
On the other hand, I just talked to a woman who got married at age 55 to her boyfriend of 20 years or so. Neither wanted kids and they liked doing things together. They got married because her job dropped her insurance.
89
Yeah, I like to force the hand of people that I love and care about. I've said it before: if AA needs commitment or affection, she needs to ask for that commitment or affection. If he can't agree to that, DTMFA, but one would think that communication could only be a good thing.
87: My uncle ruined his marriage on this sort of a gambit. Of course, he is a sociopath (like diagnosed and everything).
I later found out that, when I was in high school, he used to do drugs with a group of my friends (who met him through some person who was not me). This was long after the divorce, and he was on his way to bigger and better mistakes.
94: I have the impression they've been talking about it -- Abby's quoting him in relationship conversations where she's been conveying what she wants. The problem is that he's not saying yes or no. She can dump him for that, or she can work on how to get him to figure out if their wants are compatible or not.
Yeah, F, the way to get commitment and affection is to directly ask: "Please give me a few units of commitment and affection". It's sort of like getting some cheese at the store. Just say what you want! Communication! Honesty! Straightforwardness! magic words that turn lead to gold!
I think that that phase is past. Thay've talked about it. She's not willing to go on they way things have been going, but would be happy to go on in a different way. He knows this, but has no incentive to make up his mind.
So basically she has to steel herself to the possibility that things are over with, send out a signal that that's what she's doing and why, start moving away, and see if that makes him decide that he doesn't want to lose her. It's not "manipulation" if it's a first step in the direction of a real separation.
93: My cousin Bernie broke up with her boyfriend of 15 years or so and dated another guy for a year. Then they broke up and she got back together with, and married, the original boyfriend. She had her first kid at 42.
This all sounds more likely when you add in the fact that the original boyfriend was a nice Irish Catholic boy from Queens who was still living with his mother in his thirties. And I seriously wouldn't take any life lessons from this story.
95: sounds like pretty much everyone was better off when your uncle ruined his marriage, except anyone new he met.
With Witt and Emerson and Wrongshore.
I think 'he can see being a father before he can see being a husband' means that he wouldn't mind being a sperm donor for you, but he doesn't want to be trapped in a marriage with you. I'm pretty sure he likes you, but you ain't It; and he's too chicken to leave the sure thing for it.
And really, (cutting the guy massive amounts of slack and assuming it comes down to nothing more than chemistry that just doesn't work for him) you don't want him to be trapped in a marriage with you. You love him and want him to be truly happy and (please God) you love yourself and don't want to be trapped in a poisonous marriage.
It's vaguely possible if you split up he may get his head straight, and the relationship may work after rebooting, but the only way you get there is to head this thing off at the pass before the contempt kicks in.
max
['Ja!']
I guess we'll agree to disagree, John. I find those tactics to be manipulative and if they were used on me, I'd be hurt or pissed off or both. I actually think the advice above about watching what someone does and not what they say is the best I've heard. Frankly, it's probably doomed just because people don't really change much after their mid-20s.
I would look at Abigail's problem differently than many here seem to be. The question is not, in my view, to assess what is wrong with her boyfriend or how to change him, but to ask herself whether she could see a future with him as he is now.
Assuming he stays like he is, what would you do? If the answer is that you still want to be with him, flaws and all, be with him. Problem as solved as it needs to be right now. But do not expect him to change.
If the answer is that you could not bear to have a long term relationship with him the way he is now, tell him. Since he appears to mean a lot to you, let him know where things stand and what makes it so hard for you. I would not couch it is what is wrong with him, because it is not about something being wrong with him, I would submit. And he likely would be more willing to try if whatever you have to say is presented in terms of what you need, not what is wrong with him that needs to change.
The advice of looking at what he does, not what he says, is excellent. See what he does. Ultimately, people does not change a huge amount, no matter how hard they try--or how much they love you. So ultimately, it comes down to whether you are happier with him than without him.
But I'm on my third wife and generally have had a tumultuous personal life, so take the above with many grains of salt.
102: It's not like that's bad advice, but she seems to have followed most of it already. I understand her to have decided that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with him long term unless he wants to marry or otherwise permanently commit to her -- something dragging on undefined indefinitely would make her unhappy. So we're already at the "He changes his behavior or she's gone" stage. And they do seem to have talked about it a fair amount -- not that she's given him an 'ultimatum', but from what she's said, he knows she's unhappy, and knows what would make her happy. So that's done.
The point she's at now sounds to me like a decision either to leave without further ado, or to see if there's anything she can do to clarify in his mind whether he can meet her needs.
99: Agreed, mostly. He did have a serious relationship at a point where the lives of both had been painful enough that they were so happy to have each other.
They were planning their wedding when she died from a brain aneurysm.
After that, he really went off the deep end.
F, you haven't said whether you play "I'm not ready to commit" games, but if you do, it wouldn't be manipulative for your semi-significant other to give you a pretty strong nudge. As far as that goes, even if you don't play those games it wouldn't be manipulation for someone to try to figure out where you were coming from by putting you to the test.
"Everyone should communicate their needs directly and clearly" is not a magic formula for happy relationships, but in this case we have one party (not Abigail) failing or refusing to communicate. So the other has to take steps to find out.
Based on what I've read, this looks hopeless. Abigail wants romance, and Mr X seems doubtful about romance, especially not with her. So what I've suggested is that she move out in the expectation of it being permanent, but leaving a window open for a month or two for him to decide that he loves her madly and wants to live with her forever. A very small but not infinitesimal possibility, in my opinion.
re: 103
I see your point, and if you are right, maybe this is time for Abigail to leave.
But I wonder if she has really asked herself the important question, which is not whether she wishes her boyfriend would change or whether she would be happier if he were different in some way--of course she would--but rather whether she is happier with him as he is than without him in the long run. There was talk of "settling" above. Whether you want to call it settling or not, loving someone long term is about accepting the parts of the relationship that are not exactly what you want in order to have the rest.
But if the answer is as you suggest in 103, then maybe it is time to tell him that she loves him but she cannot be with him anymore.
Eh, I mostly agree with your last paragraph. Since I really believe that people don't change, if AA decides that lack of romance really is a deal-breaker, it's practically over already. I would suggest, though, that the problem is not that AA-partner is not communicating, it's just that he isn't saying what AA wants to hear. Also, "not ready to commit" isn't a game when it's communicated clearly, unless he's otherwise leading her on by implying that this will change when it really won't.
BR's father, sister and mother are all Republicans. The sister and mother dislike all those minorities and welfare moms getting stuff for free. For some reason, they do not appreciate the irony that the mother is still receiving spousal support after 20 some years and the sister has gone on unemployment under some suspicious circumstances. The free money they get is different.
The father is slightly more thoughtful but not by much.
"Not ready to commit" is a game when it means "I know what you want and I'm not going to give it to you, but it's fine with me if you hang around, which it seems that you might do since you seem to be stuck on me". There doesn't have to be active deception.
In this case, it seems that neither side is willing to make the break, for different reasons.
My mom "settled", and during the last 40 years of her life she was very happy. During the preceding 15 years she'd had some bad times.
"Settling" is very unpopular today, but people seem to overestimate the success rate of the other strategies.
Taking a "break" but still seeing each other in a lessened form is a flat-out unworkable idea. Don't waste time trying it. Relationships of this intensity only break up if you go absolutely cold turkey -- no calls, no emails, no contact whatsoever. (If you do that, he may wake up and try to win you back, saying he's been a fool, etc., but of course you shouldn't count on that).
Give it six months. You're not ready to go cold turkey anyway, so if you tried to break up with him now over your fears it probably wouldn't "take". Tell him occasionally you're worried, you're concerned, and you want to see some progress toward at least living together with an eye toward marriage. (Better to define progress as concrete action than saying stuff like "I love you". Bullying him into saying those words won't make any difference).
Make sure he's warned and he's thinking about it seriously. Get clear in your head that you will have to leave after a certain point if he doesn't show motion toward you. But other than that, try to be mellow, have fun and enjoy each other. Don't turn the whole relationship into an anguished exploration of the possibilities of the relationship. No fun for anybody.
Based on what's been said, I don't see the need for a Friedman unit. She should just cut it off, and say something like, "If you decide that you love me madly after all, I'll be around until I find someone else."
"Settling" is very unpopular today
All the bad-mouthing of "settling" often seems to be a form of egotism.
111: the six months is as much for her as it is for him (and it might help for him too).
John, you're too far gone in post-relationship serenity to understand how difficult these things are to break off.
I am breaking my own heart.
I think, based on all of your (again, great, thank you) advice, that a separation, trial or indefinite, may be in order. He needs to think about what love means to him, and what life would be with or without me, and whether he can imagine a life with me. Think about my emotional needs and whether he can fulfill them. Right now, we have a great relationship on the surface, and that can continue, but not indefinitely, if I don't feel emotionally fulfilled. So perhaps a break in our relationship, to focus on the emotional issues, would be helpful to us both.
So tonight I'll say we should take a break, tell him to think about stuff and figure out whether or not he can imagine feeling for me what I feel and can imagine being able to at some point in the future fulfill my emotional needs, and that he should contact me after he has thought about this sufficiently with some resolution one way or the other.
He is a good guy, but perhaps he is not right for me. Maybe it's the case that we're good company, but not emotionally compatible. It is hurting too much to feel so much for someone who has not thought about what his feelings are and is not sure what he feels for me, and whether he will feel anything more than this basic level of caring regard.
I really want to cry right now. I imagine that I will. And tomorrow I will try to save the world from legal discrimination and life will go one, slightly more painfully for a while. I predict reading lots of literature and poetry, because externalizing the study of the human condition and such questions important questions of love and life (which I think he has never interrogated) will comfort me in my own private misery.
Any literature recommendations, AWB?
legal s/b "illegal," but fuck, give me a break, tears dripping on keyboard and all.
Well then. I guess she is ready.
Sounds like he's in danger of losing a good one.
Here's the thing. People *do* change, at least with respect to how comfortable they feel about particular life-paths. It's not just possible, it's the norm: type-A career guys who have never given any thought to how relationships, love, and commitment fit into their sense of selfhood find their friends (especially female friends) marrying off one by one; find expectations among their social set for how one spends weekends, etc., changing; and eventually moving in together, or getting married, just doesn't seem that big a deal anymore.
The problem is that this typical path involves very little in the way of autonomous choice and enthusiastic endorsement; it's a recipe for midlife crisis twenty years later, when all those same friends are getting divorces.
So: you can't speed up this standard process, because the main factors--his other friends, the nebulous sense of what people like him do, etc.--are totally outside your control. But you could, perhaps, try to encourage him to *actually put time into* understanding how relationships and commitments fit into his life. Assign reading, require reaction essays, etc. A 30-page research paper at the end of the Friedman Unit.
Yeah, of course people change after their mid-20s. And they especially change around readiness for committment, isn't that pretty standard?
It's just that you don't know the timeline and don't have forever.
I am so emo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=924HeQeHutY
Nothing less than 6 straight Tour victories will do it for Cheryl.
My point, though, is that the reason it's so hard to predict, especially for guys, is that they typically don't *work at it*; it's all about what happens around them. It's a passive thing. But it needn't be. Figuring out what relationships mean to you isn't about just sitting in your armchair; if you want to do it right, you need to *actively* seek out stimuli--novels, philosophy, whatever--and study how you respond to them.
(Or, of course, *have a lot of different sorts of relationships*, but that is obviously not a helpful course of action in the case at hand.)
119: Just stay away from Exile in Guyville.
This guy doesn't really seem like a fear-of-committment guy so much as a fear-of-intimacy guy. And lo! he found an emo girl.
Well then. I guess she is ready.
She asked twice.
And lo! he found an emo girl.
Ten bucks says her Dad is sorta unemotional and distant!
John, you're too far gone in post-relationship serenity to understand how difficult these things are to break off.
Hah. I'm pretty sure this is something that you learn from getting your heart ripped out of your chest, and fed to vultures which are then killed and cremated. Multiple times.
And this is the part where you're supposed to say: 'I'm not sure of the exact words to say, but I've been there and done that and it hurts like hell, but sticking around hurts a lot worse in the long run. It's the difference between being stabbed and being afflicted with cancer. On the upside: you're young! Lots of fish in the sea! He's not the only one that will ever love you! Promise!'
And then: heavy drinking!
max
['It's just one at-bat! It's not the whole game!']
I actually did not have multiple hellish experiences, but I had a series of relationships which failed to work in completely different ways, and I also came to realize that part of the problem was that there were things I wanted more than relationships.
Awww, Abigail. I wish I could do more than send you a virtual hug.
How about a song?
A friend says that it only takes a year to figure out if you love someone and want to be with them for the long-term. Is that a correct time frame?
Honestly, worrying about what's a "correct" timeframe isn't helpful because there ain't no such thing. (Josh and I didn't move in together until almost 5 years in, which is an unbearably long timeframe for lots of peope but worked just fine for us.)
What does matter is that you and he are on roughly the same timeframe together, and you're not. If it's hurting you to wait for him, and he's got your head all twisted up with poetry and philosophical musings about The Nature of Love and why he can't express it, then you've waited too long. Take a no-contact break or cut him loose.
It sucks and I'm sorry you're in this situation.
Pwned by 114 -- let us know how things go, Abby.
(And apparently Josh being a pedantic fuck (as he grammar/typo-nitpicks my previous comment) is not a dealbreaker for us.)
114: I am breaking my own heart.
Hey, you're breaking my heart. If you're still there (probably not).
I predict reading lots of literature and poetry, because externalizing the study of the human condition and such questions important questions of love and life (which I think he has never interrogated) will comfort me in my own private misery.
I'm not AWB, but rather than reading misery-inducing stuff, read whatever will utterly absorb you, whatever you remember has always intrigued you. That you've found yourself coming back to again and again, even if it's been a while. This way you're reminded that life is still out there, yo, and is fascinating. If your boyfriend has never showed interest in these topics, perhaps remind yourself that others are.
Aww, Abigail, I'm sorry. However you choose to handle it, this is a hard part of the road to travel.
What max said, with more earnestness.
ask herself whether she could see a future with him as he is now.
This is exactly right. Assume he won't change, then decide whether that's acceptable.
And in the tie it took me to catch up on the thread, it already moved on. Analogy.
Thanks, all. I am still here, just not commenting anymore, and being all emo and shit by listening to sad bastard music.
what i recalled, a joke
so a couple's having a stroll by the river banks and she asks: - honey, do you love me, would you rescue me if i jump?
- would you jump if i say yes?
sorry, AA, just thought it's like funny
Did you realize that Obama's middle name is Hussein?
When I'm sad for relationship-y reasons, I like to listen to this song.
I'm so sorry, Abigail. You're young, and things will work out for you somehow, but that doesn't make this sort of thing hurt any less.
Max, you kill me sometimes.
125: Ten bucks says her Dad is sorta unemotional and distant!
Where does this come from? Because I suppose I also could be called emo (to the extent that I understand what the term means), and yeah, my dad, &c.
Also, triple to ask herself whether she could see a future with him as he is now.
I once read an otherwise ridiculous women's magazine quiz about the man you might marry and have children with, and up came the question: "Would you be delighted to have your children grow up to be just like him?" Oh, my. I took this as code for: do you like him, very much, just as he is?
Read is worse than me, and I mean that in the best way.
i just meant to lighten up AA's mood, not meant the joke itself of course
i recalled another one, but it's kinda violent and maybe non-feminist so'll refrain to write it here
what i think about AA's situation, why people recommend to like ruin what sounds nice
just give the man some time, he'll understand his luck and there'll be happily thereafter
Where does this come from?
Pop psychology based on her being in love with an emotionally distant guy. It works about as well as most rules of thumb like that, which means sometimes but not always.
144: Hm, yes, that seems clear. I hereby dismiss it, since my dad was, or actually my parents were, distant and as a result I go for emo communicative people.
134:Now, sad bastard music and I could contribute to the thread. Townes van Zandt, John Martyn, Nick Drake, Merle, R Thompson, John Gorka...gots a million drunks, cheating divorcers, & lonely losers. With female equivalents. And then tha Blues.
They speak for my entire understanding of the relationship love thing. The Love thang.
Aw, I was going to pile on with advice, but at this point, it seems better to just say, "I'm sorry, Abigail."
I'm sorry, Abigail!
But where's Tripp to say:"Sad, so sad?"
Oh man, Abigail, I'm sorry to hear that this limbo has dragged on, (and sorry that I missed the thread.) Please let us know what happens tonight and how you're doing afterwards.
I once read an otherwise ridiculous women's magazine quiz about the man you might marry and have children with, and up came the question: "Would you be delighted to have your children grow up to be just like him?"
I wouldn't be delighted to have my children grow up exactly like me. Perhaps why I've never been married -- I'm sure women can sense that.
OTOH, I've met many assholes who would be delighted to have their children grow up exactly like them.
Actually, who would want to have their kids grow up exactly like them? That would be a little fucked up. I'd like to have my kids grow up like whoever they are. Unless they're a natural axe murderer or something, in which case highly aggressive socialization is called for.
My sister wants me to name my firstborn "Hateface Mazltov". "Hateface" is a name that she and I made up; it is pronounced "Hot-uh-Fah-cha."
That kid will grow up much, much better than me.
This was one of my most painful experiences, and I survived heartbreak 2001, the attempted suicide of my brother in 1998, and that same brother's in 2001 (sucky year) and general abuse at the hands of my dad (lifelong). And other stuff, but I won't bore you.
The physicality of the pain is always astonishing, each time. Sometimes it comes numb, other times it comes queasy, and still yet as a sharp punch to the gut. This was more like body wracking sobs, heaving things that made me feel like my lungs were going to explode and I felt at times like I was drowning. I don't know why, but this feels like a new sensation. I am sure I have sobbed before in my life. But perhaps I forgot what that felt like, and thus a moderately functional life can lull you into a state of complacency, and I kept thinking, as I was sobbing, "this physically hurts."
I am too old to think this, but each time, it feels like I am the first to feel this way, and to be taken aback at the sheer intensity and the new form the pain comes in. How is one to expect pain, and be ready for it, if it keeps changing its form? It is a chimera, and each time I think I have survived one painful thing, yet another comes and I realize myself just as vulnerable rather than inured to the pain. The thing about survivors of ___ is that once having survived something, they think they can take anything else that comes their way. True and false. I can take a lot, but each time, it still hurts like a mother. I think the thing about surviving a lot of pain is that it makes you deal with it better each time. So, you know, you might half-heartedly attempt your own life the first time, but the second or third time, you realize that you can live through this, and that it will suck hard for now, but eventually, you will get over it. It doesn't make the pain easier to bear, but it makes the pain easier to deal with.
That extremely dramatic set up to say: we are not broken up yet. But this trial separation is already hurting so much that I can anticipate the pain of a real break so forcefully it scares me. I know, based on past experiences, that I will bear this one and relatively well, but if we really do break up, that it will hurt so bad it will be like one of the aforementioned milestones of pain. I don't know what's worse: not having ever experienced true pain and being surprised at it, or knowing what real pain is like and thus having a reference point and spectrum, knowing that right now this it ___ amount bad, but that horribly dreaded outcome would be ____ amount bad. Like, you can imagine what it feels like to have this bad thing happen, but you don't know really until it happens. I am one of those people to whom pretty damn bad things have happened, and so it's not hard for me to imagine intense pain and I can easily anticipate it.
This is not to say that hearbreak _is_ equal in measure, force, or feeling as nearly losing a sibling or whatever other tragic things have happened to me. But what has always surprised me is how it _feels_ the same. What made me angriest about heartbreak 2001 wasn't just how badly things ended, but that I was hurting as much, if not more than, all of the fucked up shit I lived through. I was angry at him for making me feel as bad as nearly losing a sibling or enduring abuse. But you know, it's all the same, and that's one of the life lessons I've learned from living through insane shit.
Not to say that this is insane shit. But again, I am surprised that this is hurting as badly as it does, and while not as bad as the other shit, it hurts pretty badly. I have a reference point, and I'd say right now I feel about 6 out of 10 on the scale of least pain I've felt in my life to most. But 6/10 doesn't feel bad, if you know what 10 is, and so I'm almost optimistic.
In pain as I am, I am optimistic because the outcome is not so terrible, which is why I only hurt 6 on a scale of 10.. We are taking a break. It is not a break-*up*. Apparently, he is not so far away from me in terms of feeling, at least how I define my feelings. The problem with talking to everyone else but each other (or rather, him not talking to anyone at all), is that we were both under certain key misapprehensions. I made it clear that I don't want him to change his fundamental self, and that I love him as he is. His occasional appearance of lacking affection or regard are but symptomatic of my biggest issue, which is not knowing how he feels about me, and feeling dismissed for needing to know. I made it clear that I did not want to get married tomorrow, or have babies next month, but that I wanted him to see that as a possible future, which is what I see. I make no promises of the future, for I have no epistemic ability to know it. However, as a free will person, as AWB says, I can choose to be with him, and to live a life with him under mutually agreeable conditions. And that is what I am ready for, and when I say I love you, I mean that I love him as he is, will give him time if he needs it (and if time is going to help), and make a daily choice, always necessarily renewable, to be with him through thick and thin. I made clear what I wanted from him (to define his feelings, articulate them, envision me as part of his future and work towards that goal), and that it wasn't the precise articulation of "I love you," but that he could conceivably in the abstract and the particular feel for me what I feel for him, and that our goals are one and the same.
So, he's cool with that. And apparently, he is fine with the abstract idea of marriage, commitment, intimacy. He is just just sure that this is it. Yeah it hurt like a mother to hear that. But I told him that like any attempts at clairvoyance, it was an epistemic fallacy to determine what is and isn't "the one," if such a thing exists. How can one know until the very end of life that this is/was the one? I always think of love as a daily choice, a daily commitment, and a state that is actively engaged rather than passively lived. So I don't know if more time with me is required for him to figure out if he can imagine a future with me in particular, or if he feels for me his definition of love. If it is time, I will give him time, because my definition of love, while not extending to the point of self-abnegation, will allow for the sublimation (albeit temporarily) of my own self-interest if he needs me to.
So where are we now? After we had this talk, we held each other for an hour and I sobbed in his arms, and he cried, and we talked and made each other laugh and then we cried again. I told him what a break meant for me, and that he was to come to me, but that I would not go to him. I told him to take all the time he needs, but if it was too long I would move on. He told me to call him if he was being a moron and taking more than a "reasonable" amount of time, whatever that means. I told him I wanted him to take that responsibility. I sobbed again. I told him that I loved him enough to be with him despite how much we occasionally have to work to meet in the middle re our emotional differences, and that I loved him enough to want him to be happy, even if that meant that he'd be happier without me. I told him that us not working out doesn't mean that we're bad people or that this is a bad relationship (far from it, it is the best either of us have ever had). I told him that if we got back together at the end of this, I wouldn't resent him for this break or the time he needed/still needs to take to get to the same emotional place as me. He has promised to really think about things, think about his definition of love and whether or not I (in particular, not abstract) can fit it with time, and what he wants out of a relationship. He has promised to read books, listen to music (say, my mix CDs) and their lyrics, and actively use this time apart to ponder his feelings. He has promised to really feel what this time apart is, rather than distract himself from it. Life without me, for however long this will take, should suck for him, and suck hard. He says that he hopes that it does, and that he really wants this to work, but is just not sure if it will (the epistemic problem of not knowing) and can't promise that it will (the agency problem of not being able to ensure an outcome). I told him that I don't need a final resolution--I just need to know how he feels, what he could feel, whether we are going in the general direction of building a future together, are committed to being in a relationship together and allowing love to grow, and that we would always try to work at this and try to be together, and by try I mean actively working at this relationship.
So, now that I know that he is not incapable of the abstract idea of love, commitment, and the idea that this relationship could be all of that, and that he can definitely envision a future with me (in abstract and particular) and indeed even wants that, I feel a good deal better. Perhaps this time apart will be productive and useful. Perhaps he will figure out that he really wants me in the particular, and what that means for him.
But fuck, this still really fucking hurts, and we took a half hour to walk to my door and say goodbye, since I kept sobbing and he also cried and we kept clinging to each other. And people, this is just a break. Like I said, the pain I feel now is nothing to the pain I can envision. But this particular strand of pain, which is akin to being in limbo, will end one way or the other. Either it will end happily, or we will end and the pain will transfigure itself in intensity and form, like the chimera it is. Right now I feel like we're Paolo and Francesca, drifting and not being able to reach each other. At some point, we may be reunited or we may be always apart, and that will be a different kind of hell.
So what I am going to do now is try to chug on, as I always do and have done before. Because this is not so bad a painful episode and not exactly a tragedy, especially by my standards, I think I may better weather than before the whole work/sleep/eat thing. I am usually good at working, crappy at sleeping and eating. Maybe I will run more. Read a lot of books. I am thinking that I will withdraw from society, and perhaps should take a trip somewhere, even if I don't have money. I am thinking I should stop listening to Bonnie Rait's "I Can't Make You Love Me" on repeat.
This is insanely long, but I wanted to give a good enough summary of what happened, although every time I attempt to I feel like I'm getting something wrong about the situation, my own feelings, and his. It's lost in translation. But I couldn't have done this without you, and what I love about Unfogged is how everyone sets their own personal experiences aside to help a stranger's particular needs. I have been talking about it occasionally with friends, but they are supportive in the sense that they don't tell me what I need to hear. Hearing you tell me that I sounded unhappy made me realize how unhappy I really was. I lacked critical distance, even if I have as much introspection and narcissism as the next blogger. It is amazing how strangers who do not know your fucked up tragic life and romantic history will still be able to intuit your pain, say that your needs are natural and not unreasonable, and support you to do what is best for you, even if it hurts in the short or long term. Thanks, guys.
This is going to be it for me for a while though, but I'll be reading comments, but not chiming in. But if something changes, I'll come back with an update. Thanks again.
"this physically hurts."
Ugh. I remember that sensation from my divorce, where it felt like I had a 10-gallon jug of water on my chest and even just breathing hurt. Take this time to lean on your friends. I found that awful period very clarifying as to which friends were the ones I felt comfortable turning to in a crisis, and which ones I just enjoyed being around in happy times; I was often surprised which ones fell into which camp. Remember to eat (soup is the easiest) and, though I never tested the theory myself, nearly everybody says exercise is the best antidepressant.
I should stop listening to Bonnie Rait's "I Can't Make You Love Me" on repeat.
Heh. I remember a break-up of friends in college that was followed by the woman playing Sinead O'Connor's "Nothing Compares 2 U" 24/7 for weeks. There were serious discussions of breaking into her room and stealing the CD (for the preservation of our mental health, not hers).
Best of luck with it, AA.
I should stop listening to Bonnie Rait's "I Can't Make You Love Me" on repeat.
Better than setting it up to play, preceded by Sheryl Crow's "If It Makes You Happy" and followed by Joe Jackson's "We Can't Live Together (But We Can't Be Apart)", when your senseless beloved comes over.
At least the last one has a awesome bass line.
There were serious discussions of breaking into her room and stealing replacing the CD with the Mountain Goats `No Children'
fixed that for you.
Abigail, sad to hear you are hurting. I missed the original discussion but although it sounds like you're doing the right things, this stuff is hard.
15: The point of analogy was its commonness, not its place in the given-middle-family name system.
To which I might add: you douche-cock.
153:
Abigail,
So sorry. I've had my share of losses and you are totally right. It is big time bad. In my experience the breakups hurt more than my sister's death, but I have "abandonment issues" so that makes sense I guess. The breakup pain faded but the sibling death pain remains to come out infrequently. I imagine you are feeling pain, maybe some anger or rage, and maybe even some responsibility and anxiety.
Grieving sucks, no doubt about it. Getting through it is about all you can do. God bless you.
AA, sympathies. I always try for regular exercise and making sure to keep minimally groomed when I feel especially bad. Eventually feeling good and looking OK soak inward. Also, Chopin's nocturnes for sad music.
it's scary how much influence people can exert on someone they'll probably never meet
the comments shouldn't be this strongly influencing one's life decisions imo
i mean do not harm should be the first principle of the internet interaction too, no?
AA, best wishes. You may be right, a trip may be in order, a reminder of the life still out there. And silly as it sounds (and as hard to execute), yeah, exercise can help because strength of body really does contribute to strength of mind. Oh, but you said "Run more."
Funny that Unfogged can be helpful; I always think we sound like a bunch of platitudes in these cases.
154: Cripe, I always found that album of Sinead O'Connor's soothing, though I feel I must listen to it secretively. Go figure.
My sympathies.
That AA has the strength to move from 79 to 114 and follow through is impressive.
AA, I'm impressed by your stance and ability to choose the route with the immediate pain but longterm payoff. It sounds excruciating. I hope you tune back in and keep us posted as this unfolds.
Funny that Unfogged can be helpful; I always think we sound like a bunch of platitudes in these cases.
I know what you mean, but on the receiving end the platitudes work. I think that's how they became platitudes. Grieving has been with us so long our comforts have become platitudes. Which speaks volumes about the human condition.
I've kept minimally groomed for decades, but it's intimately connected with the no-relationship policy.