"De re" is Latin for derriere, right? Creep.

That's right, and "de dicto" is Latin for "low-hanging fruit."

She's just bein' Miley, FL. Let's leave it at that.

I shouldn't get nosebleeds from 13-word posts.

I just read this whole damn page and still have no idea what you're trying to say. (Despite, I think, understanding the difference between the terms.) Maybe the problem is that I don't know what Hannah Montana is.

Fontana, are you confessing to liking a particular Hannah Montana song? Or is it just that you like you to wear your Hannah Montana wig and sing?

I'd say being familiar with either one is pretty creepy.

Liking a Hannah Montana song de dicto is creepy. Liking it de re is just bad taste.

End of thread.

Being familiar with Hannah Montana is not creepy if one has an eleven year old daughter. Indeed, it is nearly unavoidable.

Liking a Hannah Montana song is a matter of taste and, you know, other people's tastes are stewpid.

Personally I will admit that I seem to like a number of the Jonas Brother's songs. Yeah, I know, derivative, watered down, done before, blah blah blah.

I like that kind of music and they do a good job with it.

Shorter FL: This is an open thread for "de dicto" puns.

8 seems right to me, but I can't swear to a correct understanding of the question in question.

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Good lord, did I just make some awesome blueberry scones.
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God dammit, I miss Ogged.

A primer on the latest tweener heartthrobs from the LA Times
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/07/06/calendar/ca-kidsrock6

I am only able to understand the de dicto/de re terminology if I think through one specific example and use it as an analogy. I also have to do it out loud. I can't think it through in my head.(*) So I will do it here.

The example "The president of the United States is a moron" is currently a true statement. If you read it de re, it will continue to be a true statement in a year, because Bush will still be a moron. However, it won't be true de dicto, because de dicto the president of the US will be Obama, who is quite bright.

So, is there a change in the world which will separate the meanings of "this Hannah Montana song is good" the same way a change in president separates the meanings of "The president of the US is a moron."

Well, if the *thing itself* is the song, and not the performance, we are fine. If HM sang a cover of "I want to hold your hand" (which seems possible), you could like the song de re, because the song itself is quite good.

This seems like a tendentious reading of de re, though.

Odds are likely, though, that Labs is just hanging fruit low.

(*) I can confess this, because I no longer pretend to be a Real Philosopher.

Also, when Caroline finally made me sit down and listen to HM, my first reaction was "This isn't so bad after all." She's no Dan Zanes, but the music could be a lot worse.

13 is kinda depressing. Since when have kids too old for Barney's modern-day equivalents had their own music to listen to? Shouldn't that be when they start listening to their parents' music, figuring out what they like, setting the stage for the rebellion against it by listening to shitty music in their middle-school days, and the beginning of synthesizing all those influences into something resembling musical taste in their high school and college years?

setting the stage for the rebellion against it by listening to shitty music in their middle-school days

They are still doing this. The only difference is that now the people making music for middle schoolers know they are making music for middle schoolers, unlike, say, Rush, who think they are real artists.

16: this is naturally what happens when you give them enough money to form a marketable demographic.

unlike, say, Rush, who think they are real artists.

Ouch.

I've seen Rush in concert three times, and yet I found 17 funny. Because I am Enlightened.

God dammit, I miss Ogged.

I dreamt that ogged had put up a sports post, but it had been immediately redacted.

God dammit, I miss Ogged.

Shh. Don't let the Lur lurker know. He's thrown us out of the nest and will only return when he sees us fly on our own.

Or some similar metaphor.

Did you hear the thing on NPR this morning about some coral adapting to warmer water and being taken off the endangered list? It lifted my general despair for 10 whole seconds.

Curse that Bass Playing Librarian! There is no longer any joy in Unfogged, and she is to blame!

22:

Only to be dashed quickly with light NPR Obama trashing.

Apropos light Obama bashing, why was there no post here on Jesse Jackson's light Obama bashing? Am I going to have to start reading newspapers to find out what goes on in the world?

24: Is NPR lightly trashing Obama?

I was listening to some right-wing talk radio last night and after only a few minutse I genuinely wanted to set my face on fire. I don't see how anyone has fortitude enough to handle that stuff in large doses. But I guess some people are a lot tougher than I am.

Is there anything to be said about the Jesse Jackson thing, Di? He doesn't like him. I think that's the whole story.

It is just the constant repeating of "People say [insert bad thing] about Obama" as if it is true bc some crazy person says it.

Nothing is happening in the world.

Well, I talked to a friend of mine who works for a hedge fund, and he said that the whole financial system would have collapsed if it hadn't been for the Fed's aggressive intervention. But that's more something that didn't happen than something that did.

27: Dude, the 8 second snippets of hate radio they use for station IDs during Pirates games often grumpify me for hours afterwards.

I think what infuriates me the most is how transparently stupid so many of the arguments are - "if the gov't can set a limit on how much corporations can make*, they can set a limit on how much you make." Really? That's an argument that resonates with the roofer making $28k a year? It must, or he'd change the fucking station to one that plays Lynyrd Skynyrd, like God intended. Dipshits.

* ie, windfall profits tax

27: I'm so with you on this, Brock. The 15 seconds I see/hear when someone posts a clip online is way more than I can handle.

Did you hear the thing on NPR this morning about some coral adapting to warmer water and being taken off the endangered list?

Coral in general is doing really shittily.

Hate radio really does piss me off. The latest one was outrage the Obama wanted to give a speech in Germany. It is so utterly transparently partisan.

What would they say if McCain wanted to do the same?

33: I know. But I did enjoy the 10 seconds.

28: Not really. Unless you're the Fox News watching type, in which case it's Big News! And then those people gloat at how ignorant I am (not that they're wrong) that I hadn't even heard about this Big News. And I think, if I spent less time reading comments, I might know what goes on in the world.

I think I know where unfogged gets a reputation for impenetrable pretensiousness.

Or perhaps it's now post-impenetrable pretensiousness.

Or impenetrable post-pretensiousness.

Or possibly post-impenetrable crypto-pretensiousness.

Yes, I like that last one. I'm pretty sure that I de dicto. No, maybe I like it de re. Crap. Now I have another existential dilemma to overcome on my road to becoming a bodhisattva and kicking some f'cking serious ass.

"de dicto" and "de re" aren't pretentious concepts; they are, rather, vitally useful. Vitally!

36: oh, okay--insofar as your only point was that one ought to be able to get all one's news simply by reading comments here, I agree with you. The non-mention of the Jesse Jackson incident was a failure on someone's part. But I don't think it's an important story. Not as important as the death of the coral.

36: "Big News!" and what's going on in the world have a very small overlap.

Not as important as the death of the coral.

Sure, but that applies to most all politics stories.

I enjoyed the All Things Considered segment yesterday when Kori Flintov or somebody interviewed a group of Latina women who were organizing on behalf of John McCain. Most of it was devoted to them explaining why they supported McCain instead of Obama. One woman said it was because he was old. The second said that it was because she cared a lot about abortion rights and McCain is less anti-abortion than many Republicans. The third said that it was because Obama had left his church after his pastor insulted him, which she seemed to think meant he had left his religion entirely. The fourth said it was because he had grown up in the Middle East and had probably been brainwashed by Islam at a young age, even if he hasn't been Muslim since childhood. They all sounded very reasonable and mature and had clearly been thinking about these things carefully.

What I found interesting was that the interviewer or the host of the show didn't explain to the listener that all these views are not good reasons to support McCain because they are false. (well, except for him being old, that's true) Either the journalistic consensus is now that it would be biased to say people are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts, or the goal of the segment was to presume that the viewer would enjoy condescending to these women's silliness.

40: Fair point. And I did hear about the coral here first!

Either the journalistic consensus is now that it would be biased to say people are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts

Isn't this clearly the case?

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Stupid Apple didn't quite prepare themselves for the onslaught of iPhone Day. Their servers went down, and when I tried to upgrade to 2.0, I ended up with a brick. Shame, since I used to have a phone.

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34: I wonder about the Brandenburg Gate idea. Obviously the wing nuts are nuts, but I wonder if it's a good idea or not to give a public speech anywhere in Europe. Fox et al. would endlessly run clips of Germans applauding Obama as proof of his Euro-French-elitist faggery. What would be the upside?

42: I think I prefer the horrible anecdotal people Matt Taibbi runs into:

I was talking to this woman in Louisiana last week, and she's standing at a McCain rally, she's actually there supporting the candidate in person, and I say, "What is it about Barack Obama that you don't like?" She turns to her friend and says, "What was that thing about his wife? That anti-American thing?" The other one says, "I don't know. Which thing do you mean?" And she's like, "That thing, where she's anti-American." And the other one is like, "Oh, I don't know. I don't know what you mean." And so she says to me, "Well, I heard this thing about her being anti-American." That was as specific as she could be about why she didn't like Barack Obama, because she heard a thing somewhere about his wife.

The real story line for Jesse Jackson's pouting should be "Jesse Jackson resents being old and irrelevant for racial politics today."

If I wanted an actual factual explanation, rob, I wouldn't be on the Internet.

stras: that's an awfully long way for her to say "Hes [black|a Democrat|both]"

37: von, I'm sure the post involves layers upon layers!

Germans applauding Obama as proof of his Euro-French-elitist faggery

What? That doesn't make any sense--even Real Americans can tell the difference between the French and the Germans, right? French people are all cowardly gay womanizers. Germans are machinists.

What would be the upside?

Breaking out of the pattern of appeasing these asshats? Putting some money behind the idea of supporting real dialogue outside the borders? I dunno. Seems like a bad thing to back down on, too.

Either the journalistic consensus is now that it would be biased to say people are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts

I believe they teach this in journalism school.

It is just as well. I try to fight the "fact/opinion" distinction whenever I encounter in and replace it with the "belief/justified belief" distinction. Students come to me with very clear ideas about what sorts of things are "facts" and what sorts of things are "opinions". Anything involving ethics is an opinion and anything involving science is a fact. Thus "murder is wrong" is an opinion and "matter is composed of multi-dimensional strings, rather than particles" is a fact.

I have fantasies about designing a journalism ethics course, but I don't think I would be able to restrain the sarcasm.

You forgot cream-puff-eating.

I think Fox's angle would be to lump all Europeans together as world government types. Or else claim that all the Muslim immigrants came out to cheer for their seekrit brother. Or both.

re: Jesse Jackson. My understanding is Jesse Jackson said he was pissed at Obama and wanted to rip his nuts off. My feeling is, Reverend Jackson, get in line.

Or is it just that you like you to wear your Hannah Montana wig and sing?

In that case Labs would like the song de se.

56: pissed at him for "talking down to black people", I believe.

55: Yeah, but it doesn't matter what he or anyone does. Fox `News' will twist what's there if they can, and if they can't, they'll just make shit up. It's what they do. Being naive about this in 2000 was one thing, but now? He has to campaign under the assumption that Fox News et. al will be lying about him anywhich way they feel will work. This means not giving them easy targets, sure. But it doesn't mean cowering under the bed, either.

I speculated in a late-night thread that maybe a.) Jackson was set up by Fox, who is tilting toward Barack (not impossible), or b.) Jackson self-Souljahed in such a way that Obama didn't have to do anything except graciously accept his apology.

This will only help Obama, in the big picture. People who agree with Jackson for whatever reason won't be much influenced by this particular event, since they were already mad.

58: I'll sign up for that one, too. It comes after signing himself up for unlimited spying privileges, backtracking on Iraq withdrawal, and remaking himself as an Iran hawk, but showing up at black churches and reciting a bunch of right-wing talking points about "personal responsibility" is as good as running around in a "Kick Me I'm An Asshole" shirt.

it doesn't mean cowering under the bed, either

Agreed. I'd rather see him take a stand on, say, FISA, though. Europe already knows he actually cares about the rest of the world. It won't enhance his foreign policy cred at home. He'll say that the world needs to work together to confront problems and that he wants to be a part of that. I genuinely don't see what giving a speech there accomplishes other than giving some people the warm fuzzies.

I'd rather see him take a stand on, say, FISA, though.

I'm curious: how many people really see Obama's FISA vote as a failure to take a stand, rather than a realization that he's very likely to be president next year and therefore massively expanded executive power kind of sounds pretty sweet?

I genuinely don't see what giving a speech there accomplishes other than giving some people the warm fuzzies.

I can see your point. I think it depends a lot on what he says and how it's covered here. `Statesmenlike', if pulled off, could resonate well with a bunch of americans, especially with the rather inept efforts of Bush as the only recent comparison.

"Kick Me I'm An Asshole" shirt.
In a politician at his level, that's redundant information.

In a politician at his level, that's redundant information.

Right, but some people seem to still register surprise at why anyone might express a desire to rip his nuts off.

P.T. Barnum had a pithy saying about people like that.

a desire to rip his nuts off

This is a job for Bobby Jindal!

Since when have kids too old for Barney's modern-day equivalents had their own music to listen to? Shouldn't that be when they start listening to their parents' music, figuring out what they like, setting the stage for the rebellion against it by listening to shitty music in their middle-school days, and the beginning of synthesizing all those influences into something resembling musical taste in their high school and college years?

I think soup biscuit nailed this. Once the post-Barney pre-bubblegum group got money they got marketed to. In general I think bubblegum has moved younger but I'm not really an expert on this. I do my best to avoid it as best I can.

how many people really see Obama's FISA vote as a failure to take a stand, rather than a realization that he's very likely to be president next year and therefore massively expanded executive power kind of sounds pretty sweet

How about there is no real benefit to voting against it? Just like there is no real benefit to talking about that child rape death penalty case.

How about there is no real benefit to voting against it?

In the sense that it would have passed anyway, you mean? Or in the sense that the people who would have been happy with him voting against it are pretty much guaranteed to vote for him regardless?

69: Most of Obama's supporters didn't choose him because they admire his Nixon-like ability to calculate the payoffs of any given stand. They were hoping for something else, and he happened to have promised something else.

Democrats are geniuses at figuring out cunning reasons for knuckling under, but despite their Machiavellian cunning, they lose anyway.

I'd rather see him take a stand on, say, FISA, though.

He already has, no? It remains mystifying.

Anyway, remember that the fight for American votes in the general election has little or nothing to do with the opinions of high-information voters like those here, and everything to do with those people on the street reported in a couple of comments upthread. I'm provisionally agreed with Sir Kraab that the proposed Berlin speech is, let's say, a weird and troubling move.

I'm provisionally agreed with Sir Kraab that the proposed Berlin speech is, let's say, a weird and troubling move.

I'm in a bind; I can see her point but agreeing with it is really depressing.

Actually the Jackson thing was electorally about the most positive thing has happened for Obama in a while.

Here's my elephant in the room: the Obama campaign is absolutely sucking pondwater right at the moment in a scary "lose from ahead against a total fucking idiot" kind of way. They cannot seem to get traction on anything. Germany is a mistake (or at least a high stakes gamble), a good idea in some imaginable RealityWorld, but not good strategy given that in fact the situationally xenophobic right-wing press from hell is setting the agenda and dragging along the ass-sucking moderates like Broder* and Bob "oh really?" Schieffer. Maybe it is just me, have spent the week at home as a pretty sick old guy who is about ready to strangle his family (and you should see what they think about me!), so take it with a grain of salt.

*I want each of you youngsters to pledge to carry on an absolute jihad against the name of David Broder in the years ahead. The name must end up as an absolute insult, his crimes of commission and omission as the "dean" of the Washington press corps must be punished by posterity.

Dammit, people!

I came back from lunch, saw the thread had jumped to 70+ comments, and hoped that I'd find an interesting discussion of personal music taste evolution. Instead, it's just more annoying politics.

But I'll take it, since at least it's not yet another sci-fi/fantasy novel thread.

But I'll take it, since at least it's not yet another sci-fi/fantasy novel thread.

Ha! You must have skimmed right over the part where the aliens sucked out Obama's brains...

discussion of personal music taste evolution
all the songs i like are de dicto, a line here, a tune there, de re some artist are a few

Sorry Po-Mo, I really can't help you. I was born with impeccable musical taste, but so well-bred it's uncomfortable to talk about.

My feeling is, Reverend Jackson, get in linein the back of the bus.

Racist.

I think Jesse Jackson has earned the right to be at the front of the Kicking-Obama's-Ass line

63: I find that hard to believe; that doesn't sound like the kind of perk that Obama would be interested in.

Since when have kids too old for Barney's modern-day equivalents had their own music to listen to?

Since at least the first wave of bubblegum pop ca. '67-'68.

Sorry, Po-Mo. We watched the evolution of the threadjack, we pondered, we considered (briefly) discussion of 'tweener music trends, we shrugged and threw caution to the winds.

Worst Burge paper, I think...

I wholly endorse Emerson's 71.

As for

how many people really see Obama's FISA vote as a failure to take a stand, rather than a realization that he's very likely to be president next year and therefore massively expanded executive power kind of sounds pretty sweet

count me as a cynic, but several people here were very explicit in their position that Obama's fealty to The Constitution meant not only that he would hold the line on FISA and other stances he'd already held, but also that he would do Constitutionally good things (like go after Bushie war criminals) that he'd never talked about.

To suggest that such people might not be wholly objective about Obama's likely trajectory was viewed as a mortal insult, IIRC.

How about there is no real benefit to voting against it?

Greenwald has been over this ground time and again lately, and there's ample evidence to indicate otherwise. There just isn't a huge groundswell of voters in favor of warrantless wiretapping, nor does voting for stuff like warrantless wiretapping get Democrats better press - Democrats were still portrayed as weak and pliant in the media, and McCain attacked Obama as a flip-flopper.

there is no real benefit to talking about that child rape death penalty case

Here's the thing with that one: Obama did talk about that case, and he didn't have to. A lot of SCOTUS cases came out that day: he could've talked about the Exxon case, for instance, which didn't get nearly enough attention. And as you say, he didn't have to.

the people who would have been happy with him voting against it are pretty much guaranteed to vote for him regardless

Well, I'm probably not voting for him now, and I would've voted for him otherwise. I encourage everyone else to do the same, because really, these people don't give a shit unless you demonstrate a willingness to not vote for them.

Since at least the first wave of bubblegum pop ca. '67-'68.

But weren't The Monkees targeted at 12-y.o.s, not 8-y.o.s? I think that's the jump being questioned here. Not that under-12s might not have listened to the Monkees, but they weren't the exclusive audience. Isn't Hannah Montana a 6-12 phenomenon only?

But I could be wrong. Iris still listens to Dan Zanes and Music Together CDs.

18: this is naturally what happens when you give them enough money to form a marketable demographic.

Follow the money does work, and the trend for the bubblegummers has been developing for some time. Although he is describing slightly older "kids", one of my favorite "boomer/youth movement" quotes is from SF music icon Chet Helms. (As supposedly told to Joan Didion per her preface to The White Album ).

... one of only three significant pieces of data in the world today was the large population under 25 and that they got 20 billion irresponsible dollars to spend.

I find that hard to believe; that doesn't sound like the kind of perk that Obama would be interested in.

I don't know Obama personally, so I really can't say what kind of perks the man enjoys. But according to his statement on his FISA vote, it seems to be a perk he plans very much to use:

given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people.

Well, I'm probably not voting for him now, and I would've voted for him otherwise. I encourage everyone else to do the same, because really, these people don't give a shit unless you demonstrate a willingness to not vote for them.

So far my disgust is limited to not putting up a yard sign, which I otherwise would have done by now.

Not to get into this now, but, from everything I've read,
backtracking on Iraq withdrawal
is a media talking point, not the truth. He's always said 16 months, to be discussed with the generals. Now, it may be that he was trying to signal flexibility on this, as part of his stupid, anti-fundraising move to the center, but I've not heard of any substantive change in his position. But I'm happy to be corrected.

But weren't The Monkees targeted at 12-y.o.s, not 8-y.o.s? I think that's the jump being questioned here.

The "first wave of bubblegum pop" was more like the Archies and the Ohio Express.

Someone put up a nice-looking summer mix a month or so ago, but my zip download was corrupt. I can't find it in via google. link?

Oh, JP, via digby, Jake Tapper picked up the McCain pander on the Steelers that you mentioned the other night.

Of course, this is nothing more than further evidence of the man's capacity - nay, right - to lead our nation.

But I could be wrong. Iris still listens to Dan Zanes and Music Together CDs.

Caroline, at 5 1/2 seems to be "growing out" of Dan Zanes, driven in large part by admiration for her older cousin, who is the bullseye of the Hannah Montana target demographic.

This annoys the hell out of me, because I think Dan's music would be great for 6-12 year olds. Like when that tweener boy sings an old drinking song on *Sea Music*. That's awesome.

My efforts to control the music tastes of my children only meet with partial success. I had some success with a mix CD I made for Caroline which opened with the X-Ray Specs.

the Archies and the Ohio Express.

I was trying (but not too hard) to think who, other than the Monkees. Still, though - is it really true that the Archies didn't have substantial numbers of 14-y.o. fans? Maybe so; I wasn't there.

I really like Slack's summer mix. I've been meaning to compliment him on it.

I discovered today somebody stole my yardsign. Others on the block are still there. Whether they want to put it up themselves or are trying suppress the support I can't tell, but in my neighborhood the former is much more likely. I've still got one in the window.

My 7 yo likes ska pretty reliably. Hotel California does OK as a Ska tune. Oh, also Jelly Dancers

Well, I'm probably not voting for him now, and I would've voted for him otherwise. I encourage everyone else to do the same

Way to kill a thread, stras.

I'm with JRoth's 86. I always lumped the boy bands and other bubblegum pop aimed at young kids in with the 12 to 15 year-old "listening to your own crappy music for the first time" demographic, not with the below-12 demographic.

I guess that's what happens when you give little kids money before they can earn it themselves. Who ever thought that would end well?

91: Couldn't help you. The last mix thread I remembered was this one, but it's from April.

weren't The Monkees targeted at 12-y.o.s, not 8-y.o.s?

I think the Monkees were targeted at about 8-12 yr olds, but the Archies, say, or Ohio Express, or 1910 Fruitgum Company were targeted at even younger kids. The Archies marketed records on cereal boxes (one of which I would kill to have). Which isn't to say that Disney doesn't try to market bands to even younger kids today, but I don't think that there's a great deal of difference in either content or marketing between Hannah Montana and the Archies.

Pwned by Fatman, on preview.

I was fifteen in '67, and Fatman's distribution is correct as I remember it. I disdained the Monkees, but they were aimed at people about my age; Archies et al were an attempt to find a younger market and whether it had purchasing power. No idea whether it was successful.

You want to try experiencing "The Summer of Love" on a mono clock radio sometime.

"When the truth is found, to beeee lies, and all..."

Slack's summer mix

Crap, I missed that. Pointer?

Like when that tweener boy sings an old drinking song on *Sea Music*.

Iris will be the older sibling, and so will hopefully stick with Zanes longer than Caroline. She made me very happy a week or two ago when she came into my office and asked to listen to something on my iPhone. The first kid-friendly song I could think of was "Yellow Submarine" (which she's heard before but isn't hugely into or anything). So I played it, and she asked for it a couple more times. By the fourth listen, she was singing along, totally unselfconsciously (she doesn't sing along much, and will often ask us to stop it when we do; it saddens me, but I can't fault her ear - AB and I are terrible singers). Oh, and she also said, "I can hear the ocean!" at the part with sound effects. Kids are great. I should go ask AB if we can have another one.

hoped that I'd find an interesting discussion of personal music taste evolution.

Po Mo,
Yeah. I tried, but not only do I know little on this topic what I do know seems to be pretty non-irritating. Sorry. The best I could do was a "right on" to soup biscuit. Maybe he shouldn't have blurted out the answer so soon. Blame him not me.

The first kid-friendly song I could think of was "Yellow Submarine"

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Every parent has some kid-friendly poppish music in their collection that, chances are, the kid will love. And then when they get older, they'll probably have something they can still listen to!

If some 10-year-old really insists on getting their own music, they should just be pointed toward any reasonably cool college kids who are family friends for guidance. Above all, we must never waver in our resolve to expunge tween pop from this world.

103: It's all good, Tripp. Thanks for trying.

I guess that's what happens when you give little kids money before they can earn it themselves. Who ever thought that would end well? Yes. On the one hand it is beneficial to the parents because they will be able to tease their children mercilessly about it when the children grow up. On the other hand it is just another drip in the deluge that is eroding our cultural heritage.

Yes, I was thirsty while writing this.

hoped that I'd find an interesting discussion of personal music taste evolution.

40 years on, I now like the Monkees. At the time I was into King Crimson & Pink Floyd & Soft Machine, which are no longer on my harddrive.

The first kid-friendly song I could think of was "Yellow Submarine"
I adored "Puff the Magic Dragon" when I was six. I think "I want to hold your hand" is pretty kid friendly too.

I've heard about the regession to childhood before, bob, but I thought it hit a little later....

Well, the Monkees are a bit of a red herring, what with their combination of world-class songwriting and top notch session musicians. The fact that Nesmith had some native talent didn't hurt, either.

IOW, it's no surprise that they've held up; out of any crop of bubblegum, there's usually at least one or two bands/singers who are legit, whether on their own merits or those of their team.

Who would've guessed that Xtina Aguilera would have some staying power?

I think that most recent mix was from Wrongshore.

We sat around over the weekend with my 9 year old and my friend's 2 year old singing Yellow Submarine -- a welcome break from This Old Man. Rory has loved the dvd for years. She moved on from the Beatles to Springsteen a couple of years ago, and then High School Musical happened and she became a 'tween.

AB compiled this Beatles mix before Iris' birth:

Octopus's Garden
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da
All Together Now
Yellow Submarine
I Want to Hold Your Hand
Love Me Do
Martha My Dear
Birthday
Here Comes The Sun
With A Little Help From My Friends
When I'm Sixty-Four
Good Morning Good Morning
Getting Better
Rocky Racoon
The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill
Blackbird
I'm So Tired
I`ve Just Seen a Face

This whole notion of steering or influencing kids' musical tastes seems wrongheaded and improper to me. I've been happy to share my opinions when asked, as my dad did before me, but that's intrinsically part of their own space in my opinion.

107: But Bob, how do you feel about what your parents listened to when you were a kid?

I mean, the first music I listened to as a 12-14 year old was Metallica, Prodigy, and other more embarrassing bands that aren't exactly filling up my CD collection or my playlists these days, even if I can trace my current tastes from some of those early choices. But the music I was raised on: early 70s Motown and Stax, 80s synthpop, and especially the mighty album Violator, those are still beloved today and part of my collection.

Wikipedia's entry on Josie and the Pussycats has an interesting anecdote about Danny Janssen's struggle with Hanna-Barbera to hire Brenda Holloway's sister Patrice for the group.

Who would've guessed that Xtina Aguilera would have some staying power?

*raises hand*

92: Oh, JP, via digby, Jake Tapper picked up the McCain pander on the Steelers that you mentioned the other night.

Oh good, although reading the comments over there depressed me further. The best news is that some of the Steelers chat rooms and Wisconsin papers have picked it up. At one level this is of course a small thing, but then again it is the kind of thing that goes right to his credibility in an area of his "strength". Plus the fair-weather fan, obvious BS aspect of it is the kind of thing that most hometown sports zealots have very finely tuned cheater detectors for. At a minimum I want it to get the play that Clinton's Cubs/Yankees got or Kerry's calling Lambeau Field "Lambert Field".

69: Most of any politician's ever Obama's supporters . . . were hoping for something else, and he happened to have promised something else.

I wish the electorate would grow the fuck up.

This whole notion of steering or influencing kids' musical tastes seems wrongheaded and improper to me.

This is the entire purpose of the 'tween music industry, mind.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you.

116: Me too. Always obvious that Aguilera had something more than Spears and the others she was grouped with.

This whole notion of steering or influencing kids' musical tastes seems wrongheaded and improper to me.

I don't think that there's anything terribly improper about trying to steer a child's interests, as long as you aren't insulted when the child--as he or she inevitably will at some point--refuses to follow your lead.

I wish the electorate would grow the fuck up.

And not expect politicians to mean what they say at all?

I kind of suspect that the biggest reason that we have such stupid campaigns isn't that the media are lazy/stupid/evil, but that cynical voters literally don't believe anything pols say, and so are left to choose based on stupid heuristics like beer-buddyness or Frenchness.

This is the entire purpose of the 'tween music industry, mind.

Of course. I mean by parents, unless I misunderstand you.

107: But Bob, how do you feel about what your parents listened to when you were a kid?

Remembering, remembering...

Well, my dad into the 1980s kept saying that big band music was gonna make a comeback. My mom was into warhorse classical & Broadway. So I guess I am still in rebellion.

My grandparents were into Chet Atkins and 60s Elvis. Nope.

Slipping ever more deeply into country & bluegrass, but hey it isn't any real big step from some of what I listened to in Texas in the 70s.

I don't think that there's anything terribly improper about trying to steer a child's interests

This makes sense, particularly if you are basically trying to counteract some of the propaganda effect they are inundated on. Kids (& parents) these days are heavily outgunned. As you note, particularly if you are happy to let them decide in the end.

Always obvious that Aguilera had something more than Spears and the others

But my understanding was that the "something" was mostly physical voice talent, which doesn't nec. translate into artistic ambition, much less accomplishment.

I guess that the Drrrrty Grrrl (or whatever) stuff made it seem that Xtina's way of standing out was not going to be aesthetic ambition. But since I never listened to her or the others, I had no way to gauge by the actual material, and maybe there were clear indications there.

Oh, I meant to make this joke hours ago:

I hate Hannah Montana, but that Miley Cyrus seems like one to watch.

she doesn't sing along much, and will often ask us to stop it when we do

My ex-gf's son is like this too, complains "I want to hear the singer!" when anyone sings along.

I started him off on this at age five or so (Bob Dylan singing "This Old Man"!), moved onto this and this (w/ cartoons as the hook), and have been feeding him various mixes (Beatles and TMBG go over big) since.

A friend was telling me last night that the musical taste of her 10-year-old son and his friends is being heavily influenced by the songs in Guitar Hero and similar video games.

Well, my dad into the 1980s kept saying that big band music was gonna make a comeback.

And he was only wrong by a decade.

126: It seems almost impossible to avoid hearing about these two this last few years, but luckily (or by design) pretty easy to avoid ever hearing from them, afaics.

129 obviously spoken as someone without children in the demographic

121: Oh yeah, for sure. It's just that when a kid is in their tweenish years, they're just going to latch onto some prepackaged set of heavily-advertised tastes anyway. And they're not yet in a particular rebellion phase against the parents (at least, I wasn't, not so sure about the general case). So why not steer them in a direction that doesn't involve buying new, crappier music?

When they start to branch out into mildly less commercial music in late middle school, early high school, then they can figure out their own tastes.

This whole notion of steering or influencing kids' musical tastes seems wrongheaded and improper to me.

Shaping your kids musical tastes is just the lite version of teaching them your values. What you really want is for the child to grow up and, of their own free will and reason, embrace something like your worldview, perhaps adjusting a few points in ways that you will actually learn from.

Musical tastes work basically the same way valued do, except they are not really important. Aesthetics is just, like, play values. So, shaping your kids musical tastes is like a toy version of teaching them ethics.

124 PS

My dad wanted a bigband comeback because he loved to dance, especially jitterbug. A 5'11" boxer, he was a combination of Rock Hudson with the cool and kindness of Bob Mitchum (I am not exaggerating), but from the far edge of the wrong side of the tracks. My mom probably saved him from jail or death, he stopped getting drunk around 1950. And oh, he could make us laugh.

A total stone stud, the divorce destroyed my mother.

128: Oh god, yeah, swing/rockabilly revival. Now that must've seemed outta left field. I mean, not every day that a revival from a generation ago gets revived.

Fortunately, the stuff was better than the traditional big band music that I've heard, which was mostly slower and fairly dull.

"Two weeks ago Alexandria was listening to Hilary Duff songs. David just leaves the room. He thinks she should be listening to underground music,"

Fox et al. would endlessly run clips of Germans applauding Obama as proof of his Euro-French-elitist faggery Nazism.

I hate Hannah Montana, but that Miley Cyrus seems like one to watch.

Jroth,

Actually I think Emily Osment, the actor who plays Lily, is loaded with talent. She may have staying power. Plus she's hasn't been pigeonholed so far.

132: But you teach values by example, and to some degree by explaining your choices.

Now it happens my daughter's musical tastes are very sophisticated, and have been for years as she's been growing up. I don't remember trying to have her prefer something to something else, nor suggesting she should listen to anything in particular, although I would talk about what I was listening to, sometimes, usually in the car. Is that what you mean?

133: Holy oleo bob. I'm your daddy. Minus the booze and divorce. How've you been?

135: Holy shit, poor David Bowie.

126: Oh, I meant to make this joke hours ago:

What I meant to say hours ago was that this whole blog post rates an 8.4 on the Ben w-lfs-n Memorial "Introduce a Discussion on a Pop Culture Topic While Apparently Attempting to Keep My Intellectual Pretensions Intact but with a Wink and a Nod to the Audience that I Know That You Know that I Don't Really Mean It Although Of Course I Really Do" Scale.

But at least it did it succinctly!

Fortunately, the stuff was better than the traditional big band music that I've heard, which was mostly slower and fairly dull.

You're hearing the wrong stuff. Benny Goodman doing "Sing Sing Sing" at Carnegie Hall is as raucous and energetic as early Beatles, and nothing from the 90s revival topped it. (This is a studio version, 1/6 as long as the Carnegie Hall performance, and a bit muted).

Bunny Barrigan; Bix Biederbecke. Duke Ellington and Count Basie. They rocked.

It's certainly true that the old "sweet" stuff is pretty sappy by modern standards, but the "hot" music mostly holds its own.

Pomo, you miserable troll.

138: By example, exactly. I burn her whole CDs full of examples. My wife makes fun of me for it.

Talking about pigeonholing tween girls is sick. Even pigeonholing between consenting adults is offensive to many.

Actually I think Emily Osment, the actor who plays Lily, is loaded with talent. She may have staying power.

It's interesting: I did a lot of babystitting in the mid-90s, and so was exposed to a lot of Nick shows aimed at tweens - All That, Kenan & Kel, Alex Mack. Several of those kids have gone on to real careers - fomented, sometimes, by the same companies, but also on merit - Kenan (I think) made it to SNL, which isn't in the business of giving boosts to ex-child actors.

I think that, because this industry has gotten so big, and the market so rich, the producers and other show-makers have much more incentive to choose actually-talented kids, at least some of whom will have enough talent to translate into adulthood.

Woot! Pwned Rob by a whole minute!

Good links, though.

139:Are you? My dad was also a compulsive cheater and financial disaster. From a stereotypical Irish horror of a family, his father was a alcoholic physically abusive bum and his mom the classic mass every day doormat. I don't think he ever understood what a family was, or how one worked, or how to raise kids.

How did my mom snag the stud? Well, a) he was dangerous, irresponsible, and without prospects, b) she had brains and big tits, c) she had a solid healthy extended family he took as his own, and d) I don't know, since who knows what she was like 15 years before I could see her. I could see him, cause he never grew up.

Still my daddy?

Plead the 5th, Tripp.

142, 143: Well, yeah, "Sing Sing Sing (with a Swing)" is quite likely one of the dozen best songs of the 20th century (I've got the well-circulated 5 minute version, and used to have the 8 minute version which was a lower-quality recording). The horn explosions in the more raucous versions are just awe-inspiring, as are the pounding drums so sorely lacking in most big band music. Those are really the two elements they amped up in the 90s swing revival that I liked.

Duke Ellington, I've never care for very much, though I've only heard the studio and recorded performances like the ones you linked, Rob. It's just not my cup of tea. Too slow and quiet, with little bass. I disdain subtlety in music.

Way to veer back on topic with 150.2 !

I think that 151 would be extremely cutting, if I actually understood it.

Early Ellington songs are known for their use of growling horn effects. Perhaps that would be more what you are into.

You can't dismiss the whole genre and then allow Sing^3 as a colossal exception. It was perfectly in keeping with much of the music of the time.

But you were trolling, and I should work rather than take the bait.

150: Check out this Bunny Berrigan (with Bud Freeman, and others) - not quite the impact of "Sing Sing Sing," but maybe enough to indicate to you that other swing could also be pretty hot.

But you were trolling, and I should work rather than take the bait.

Now this is taking it too far.

I disdain subtlety in music.

Uh.

Why?

154: I can't click that link as I'm at work, but the Bunny Berrigan "I Can't Get Started" makes me swoon every time. I haven't heard it in years though; maybe I'll dig through my records when I get home and give a listen.

Shaping your kids musical tastes is just the lite version of teaching them your values. What you really want is for the child to grow up and, of their own free will and reason, embrace something like your worldview, perhaps adjusting a few points in ways that you will actually learn from.

My 8 year old daughter told me that "kabaluere" by Antonio Carlos and Jocafi was her favorite song. Good choice, but the habitus of third graders isn't really going to be able to support seventies brazillian funk over Hannah Montana for long.

I am OK with this. If everybody you knew spent as much time talking about vampire weekend as tweens talk about Hannah Montana, it would be kind of silly not to buy the album. And like it, because music is good.

I like tween music, tho -- at least, the tween music that was around when I was a kid. New Edition counts, right? Weren't Ralph Tresvant and Bobby Brown all of like thirteen when "Candy Girl" came out? I liked them then, and I still like them now.

I think you guys have to allow that you now have the benefit of years of hindsight in picking out music of the earlier eras. As someone growing up in the 60s in a not very sophisticated musical milieu (please hold your anecdotal exceptions for a bit), the early 60s comparison was more Beatles vs. Mitch Miller or Como/Sinatra/Martin (as presented routinely on television and radio, not the smoking hottest thing they had ever done over the past 20 years). That contest was easy even without the "rebellious" parts, many of the parents in fact "got it".

So I think you have to allow that one of the functions of revivals is that they do bring up some of the somewhat hidden gems to a broader audience (and in those days hidden really meant hidden for most people) and can seem very fresh for those not in the know (most people).

And I know no one was really trashing revivals.

But you were trolling, and I should work rather than take the bait

Well, I wasn't really. Though I should have been less lazy and said that I liked it better than the traditional big band music that I dug into rather than saying that it was better.

I'm sure somewhere there is other stuff with the incredible impact of "Sing Sing Sing", but I haven't come across it. And I really tried looking for a bit, after first hearing "Sing Sing Sing" in high school and having my mind blown. The song JRoth links in 154 is good, and I probably would have liked it a lot live, but I think a lot of the faster music with more kick suffered from the recording technology of the day.

156: Good question. It just seems to be the case. Nearly all the music I like is very beat- or bass-heavy, or loud/raucous, or fast-paced.

bob,
Irish you say? Shoot. OK. I'm the German version of your Daddy. Well, all the good stuff anyway.

Being serious for a minute it does seem that upper midWesterners of European descent don't have to go back very far to find relatives who had problems with alcohol. I don't know if that is general to the time (I gather most people boozed more in the 1800's) or if it was something to do with who came to America or even something else.

Uhoh, there I go being simplistic again.

Benny Goodman - On the Air 1937-1938 is awesome swing for rock oriented listeners.

That Bunny Berrigan is smoking. And the fact that it is based on the same descending figure as Sing^3 means that PMP is obligated to like it.

||

OT: I just got my new speakers this week and, in my system, they are, literally, better than I would have thought possible.

I was going from two-way bookshelf speakers that had great sensitivity and clarity, and tight bass, but not a lot of body in the bass to three-way speakers.

They have more bass, are more realistic, and more have more clarity and sensitivity than the old speakers.

Quite remarkable.

|>

So what kind are they?

upper midWesterners of European descent don't have to go back very far to find relatives who had problems with alcohol.

Usually you don't have to look back in time at all. But i's important not to be all huffy about what counts as a "problem". Western civilization was built by drunks. Look at wretchedness of the poor, dry, angry Muslims. They are being punished for rejecting the spirit.

They were hand made. They each have two Focal Woofers (an older model that hasn't been made for a while) and a Vifa horn tweeter.

The crossover is completely custom built.

I think I've mentioned before, that I just happen to have connections to someone who is very quirky but a genuine electronic/audio engineering genius.

He works slowly (the speakers are the last piece of a whole system -- amp, pre-amp, speakers that was started on about a year ago. Though work hasn't been continuous, and there was a break of several months to find someone to build boxes, and for me to finish them), but I am completely amazed at the results.

Many would kill to get your system, Nick. Be careful who you trust.

I can put them in touch with the builder to get their own version made. He can use the work.

We can't afford them, Nick. This is your warning.

At some point I hope to post photos of the pre-amp.

It's in a very cute 4x6 metal box, and when you open it up, almost every cubic inch is used -- but it's all very orderly, and he assures me that there's plenty of separation between the channels (and my ears confirm that).

This is so appropriate for a thread called "shameful confessions"

We can't afford them, Nick. This is your warning.

They are cheaper than you would expect. For various reasons, he charges an absurdly low amount for the time that he puts in (he also can be hard to deal and can drive people away sometimes).

Where do you live, Nick? I ask merely out of curiosity.

I ask merely out of curiosity.

<nervous laugh>

Did Slack put up a summer mix? I missed. Mine is here.

or here a la carte.

This is fun, and a warmer kinda trolling.

162:Now me maternal grandparents were of Amish/Mennonite stock. Remember the barn raising in Witness? Remember it well, especially the silence.

Grandpappy used to do his ten hours at the factory, come home, eat a little, then pick up a hammer. Station wagon pulls in the driveway:"What, you work with my son-in-law? Wifes got coffee & pie in the kitchen, kids are playing down at the crick, those 2x4s need to be 52 inches. Beer & cards after sunset." If you went for the coffee & pie he wouldn't even shrug. Next words would be at the table:"Goin to bed."

Always at least 5-10+ people around weeknights, 10-30+ weekends. I can remember summer weekends with 50 in two thousand square feet, kids in tents outside. They had a couple real nice places after twenty years.

I admire the work ethic, and around here I can watch it for hours.

179:I see it as a kinda Tom Sawyer thing. With two ten strapping young men beside him all the time, I can't say how hard my grandpappy worked. Just kinda steady. And it wasn't like he ever went over to anyone else's place, tho everyone was welcome at his. Being silent, he never argued with or offended anyone, and that somehow set a tone. It was the other guys did the joking and playing.

Food & drink & materials just seemed to magically appear somehow.

re: 142

Definitely. The Goodman stuff with Charlie Christian is pretty much indistinguishable from early rock'n'roll and has the most amazing energy.

Lots of the late 30s/early 40s swing has that same energy.

181: There are 2 or 3 Charlie Christian jams recorded by accident (one with Dave Tough drumming) and they're fantastic.

My kids have got all sorts of stuff on their mp3 players, but their current favourite (which one of them found on the internet, and reintroduced to us) is Weird Al Yankovic. The oldest 3 know the whole of Albuquerque off by heart, which shows some kind of devotion.

Duke Ellington, I've never care for very much, … I disdain subtlety in music.

When I think "subtlety in music", I think "Blue Pepper (Far East of the Blues)" and Money Jungle.

142 & 181: Artie Shaw was doing some things, not released in some cases for forty years, which were amazing.

An interesting question is what to make of the most popular music which is not the best. It can be argued that what Paul Whiteman and later Glenn Miller played was not jazz at all, although it familiarized multitudes with the sound of an era, and played a very important role in the culture.

Don't argue that around DS, IDP!

I named those guys for a reason: a lot of swing was of course jazz, and the ones recently mentioned a few comments up are classic examples, although not the only ones. I'm interested in the role of the popular, pseudoes.

My dad worshipped Glenn Miller.

"Paul Whiteman" was, of course, a stage name. His real name was Boogie Negre.

186: It's okay; Paul Whiteman and Glenn Miller didn't really swing.

re: 182

Yeah, I have those: "Waiting for Benny", "Blues in B", etc. I have transcriptions of them, too, for that matter [guitar geek, etc]. Those are studio jams made at various recording sessions before the proper recordings with Goodman took place.

The Minton's Playhouse jams are even more amazing. Particular 'Swing to bop'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLz4vYCW97Y

That's pretty much the Holy Grail of electric guitar playing, right there.

re: 190

BTW, that Youtube link is only a 3 min excerpt from the full jam, which is 9 minutes long and is amazing.

No more masturbating to Tony Snow.

No more masturbating to Tony Snow.

You know, I think that'll be easier to (not) do than you might guess.

193: After having to give up masturbating to Jesse Helms last week, it may be difficult.

No more masturbating to Tony Snow.

At the risk of reinforcing my reputation for having a soft spot for right-wing hacks, I occasionally felt a twinge of sympathy for Tony Snow. [Banned analogy alert] Like a Triple-A League star who finally gets called up for his major league debut, only to realize that he's literally out of his league, Snow was a top decile hack who found himself in a job where only a five-nines percentile hack like Ari Fleischer could do the job properly. Snow's departure for health reasons, unfortunate as it was, probably saved him from a total mental breakdown.

Also, the transition from the job at Fox where he was the star of the show to a job where the boss, however amicable he pretends to be in casual interactions, thinks of you as the hired help and doesn't give a flying fuck what you think, must have been tough.

Rest in peace, Tony. I hope you had a deathbed conversion and end up in a nice place.

There was a sense of humour in Tony Snow I found appealing. I always thought he was laughing at Britt Hume, and I couldn't completely hate anyone who found Britt Hume ridiculous.

RIP

I don't understand the rule of not speaking ill of the dead, but I never developed the animus towards Snow that I so easily do for other wingnuts.

So the news saddened me, but he was a spokeman for policies that are so destructive to Americans and beyond, that I'm not sorry to see him go. That the Adminstration now has such a dimwit in that position is better for us.

Sorry. The hog farm will not be denied. Except that the chemo probably would taint the ham.

Clearly, the creepy implication lies in de dicto, while de re is a matter of bad taste, as another commenter noted. I mean, think, about. The latter is like getting a chewing gum jingle lodged in your consciousness, while the other is like having an underaged teenage girl lodged there.

bob,

This is fun, and a warmer kinda trolling.

I'm not sure I catch your meaning. I'm not trolling. Really. It is something else.

You are a pretty brilliant guy. I admire that you were the first to catch onto me. You ever take a Meyers-Briggs assessment? What is your type?

Regarding work - Many people want to have a purpose, want to feel like they matter. Work is a very good way to achieve that in a positive and beneficial way. Sometimes I wonder if our recent spate of leisure was bad for us as a nation.

I like learning from others. You are a bit farther down the road than I am. What is it like from where you are? What do you want? What do you see?

Did you hear the thing on NPR this morning about some coral adapting to warmer water and being taken off the endangered list? It lifted my general despair for 10 whole seconds.

Thank you for this, Kraab. We saw Wall-E yesterday and it made me want to go lie down and die somewhere.

Thanks for putting the music together and (re)posting, wrongshore-- great tunes for a long drive on a hot day.