how to turn your son into a girl

Wow.

"dsquared male nudity" is what brought me here. Duh.

But all the "slept with gordon lightfoot" is why I stay.

I think "how can i suppress pharmacy records from my ex?" is my favorite.

Attempting carve an ice sculpture with your "weiner" seems unwise.

No, fuck you.

masturbation thinking of jesus

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this...

The funny thing is how many of these are either actual topics of past discussion here or completely plausible topics of future discussion.

I get a lot of wonderful search phrases in which people ask Google if there is sin in doing various things. One of my favorites was "Is there sin in masturbating to pictures of jesus?"

womens vollyball crotch shots

And I'm STILL LOOKING, you fuckers.

I found myself estimating thread length by topic.

npr moral hazard cock up

I would have thought that someone who uses the word 'constitute' wouldn't ask Google a full English-language question.

Anyway, I love "can your dentist tell if you give blowjobs." I'm picturing what she's picturing—Oh no no that's not right, that's a distinctive pattern on the roof of your mouth alright, have you been giving blow-jobs? Sheri, call in her mother, we're going to need to talk to her about this—"question does cum give mouth cancer yes or no"

It only now occurs to me that you know exactly how often I mine the archives for some pearl of wisdom that dropped from my keyboard, i.e. "wrongshore Fermat's Last Theorem". Thank you for not publishing that.

1: I'll take credit for that, thank you.

how to turn your son into a girl

B?

hagis penis meat

Ttam?

gunk hair stop growing

Ogged?

can your dentist tell if you give blowjobs

One of those cases where a single line is as revealing as an entire short story.

masturbation thinking of Jesus

Jesus is hot. He's always half-undressed, every muscle defined.

"Why girls prefer to kick groin"? Does anyone really not know the answer to this??

didn't see 12. I agree completely.

"Why girls prefer to kick groin"? Does anyone really not know the answer to this??

in elementary school they always went for my shins. My lifetime of unpopularity with women began early.

drinking straight vermouth

This was W-lfs-n. He's not the suave cocktail master he pretends to be.

For future search strings, I'd like to register Donita Sparks and the Stellar Moments' "Fly Feather Fly" as the irrelevant-yet-incontestable route to every answer sought in this thread.

flight of the anal intruder

Title of my next novel.

buttsex with keyboard characters

whiskey tango foxtrot?

buttsex with keyboard characters

Did Sifu ever retrieve his "t"?

Flight of the Anal Intruder
Title of my next novel.

Bah! A Hollywood extravaganza in the old-style, starring Brad Pitt, and featuring Ben W-lfs-n, Fontana Labs and a cast of thousands... of butts!

Speaking of which: since the dearly have departed, shouldn't this blog now be Beck'sonLabs? ("Purveyors of the finest quality premium German dildos, designed to deeply penetrate and illuminate. Beck'sonLabs: the Vibes White People Like!")

max
['Honkkkk-TASTIC!']

what constitutes a slut how many dudes does a girl gotta sleep with to be called a slut

Pity the poor soul looking for a straightforward answer to this question who arrived at the site and found a 1,000-comment colloquium on gender roles.

[Pssst, the correct answer is "your age times 1.25, minus 13, rounded to the nearest whole number".]

can your dentist tell if you give blowjobs

It depends on whether or not you give the dentist a blowjob.

what constitutes a slut how many dudes does a girl gotta sleep with to be called a slut

What's a nice word like "constitutes" doing in a sentence like that?

how to turn your son into a girl

Wow.

Maybe that was this parent.

the correct answer is "your age times 1.25, minus 13, rounded to the nearest whole number".

Old people like me need to do a lot of work to regain our slut status.

26: Especially when the question is "how many dudes" do you have to sleep with.

a lot of work to regain our slut status

Also, I think slut status, once acquired, is persistent. It's not a like a knighthood, where you keep it for life, but more like having a bankruptcy on your credit record: expunged only after 10 years or successfully fleeing your identity.

flight of the anal intruder

Actually this is my virtuoso showpiece for solo contrabass. I don't much care for Korsakov, but I love the Rimsky.

is it tacky to bring pizza to a potluck

Not as tacky as it is to sleep with Korn.

26: Hey, if you're a guy, relative longevity helps past a certain point.

flight of the anal intruder

It was great in the theatrical release, but the basic cable version they show on TNT is so heavily edited that you can barely follow the story.

Interesting aside: the dubbed version is German version is called Hintermann: Der Luftjäger hat noch ein Ass im Ärmel.

Also, how much can i cook in a 5quart crockpot

This is a trick question, right?

big emo cocks

apo made this one up.

31 to 30.

Pssst, the correct answer is "your age times 1.25, minus 13, rounded to the nearest whole number".

I am pretty sure the correct answer to that question is in fact 0.

I ran a few of these searches, and it's interesting to me that we show up pretty far down in the results for many of them, like page 4 or 5 or later. Do people click through on the earlier links, not find what they want, and keep clicking? Do they skim the results and think that Unfogged looks the most promising?

When I run a search, I rarely go past the 2nd page of results. If what I'm looking for doesn't come up earlier, I revise the search.

But then I am a professional researcher, you know.

Also, how much can i cook in a 5quart crockpot

This is a trick question, right?

Actually it kind of is. You need to leave some space in a crockpot. And anyway, we don't exactly measure meals in quarts.

Hey, what's house style for distinguishing the text you're quoting from the text the quotee is quoting?

When I look at referral logs at my workplace, I use the client to distinguish between indexing bots, scripts, and actual people. Oddball scripts used to make webpages or other customized aggregations of data generate a lot of traffic. Log analysis IME looks very different after accounting for this.

tH1S iS a tR1CK qUEST1ON, r1GHT?

[...]

Hey, what's house style for distinguishing the text you're quoting from the text the quotee is quoting?

See above.

Sounds good!

29 wins the internet.

what constitutes a slut

A collection of simples arranged slutwise, duh.

what constitutes a slut

The End

FL:
flight of the anal intruder

Actually this is my virtuoso showpiece for solo contrabass. I don't much care for Korsakov, but I love the Rimsky.

Good joke, but I'm pretty sure it is the second movement in Khachaturian's Gayne Ballet suite. Khubrick used it for the space docking scene in 2001. A haunting melody to be sure.

Actually, when I do the math and the appropriate gender changes, it becomes clear that I have never been a slut in my life. Hmpf.

One of my ambitions for old age is to be the one man in a retirement community of women, but at 80, I'd have to sleep with 87 women to be a slut. Do I get to count all the people I'd slept with in those 80 years?

46: All three of them? Sure, why not.

The space docking scene really is haunting.

"What the hell is this in the freezer?! You must be bloody crazy if you think we're going to try space-docking tonight - You know my book club is on a Wednesday."

Oh the drama and pathos hidden behind that dash. If my book club is on Wednesday, you can't stick a condom full of frozen shit into my mouth, because ________.

48: In space, noone can hear you squick.

You're a slut if you sleep with more than five people in four years? Even considering I got a late start at 19, that doesn't leave a lot of room for not being good at long-term relationships. I cry foul.

If I told you which promising young philosopher kept his own feces in the freezer for an entire year, you would be amused.

No, not me, I said "promising."

I swear, young kids today have nothing to do other than sit around and make up revolting fictional fetishes.

52: sweet christ the caption said those were Sugar Plums.

52: You call w-lfs-n promising?

Dammit, Sifupwnd, both chronologically and qualitatively.

I swear, young kids today have nothing to do other than sit around and make up revolting fictional fetishes.

Sing it Sister. Idle minds are a Devil's workshop. Plus obesity. Why we outlawed child labor is beyond me.

I swear, young kids today have nothing to do other than sit around and make up revolting fictional fetishes.

Don't be revolted, B, I guarantee you it's just chocolate ice cream.

AWB The formula won't declare you a slut if you had sex with five people between the ages of 19 and 23. To be a slut at age 23, you'd have to have 16 lifetime partners.

58: No doubt.

Also, do you know what sucks? It sucks that I have had insomnia two nights running--and no sleep last night at all--because I'm obsessing over landscaping on a house we haven't bought yet.

I hate my brain.

61: Instead of worrying about getting shot you're worrying about landscaping? Oh B, you so swipple.

Getting shot? For what?

You wanna know what's worse is, I'm worried about calling my realtor and saying we can't sign the counteroffer because we're sort of getting cold feet and are not willing to go above our initial offer. (The difference between the offer and the counteroffer is 3%.) Because I feel like I'm wasting my realtor's time. That's how neurotic this whole thing is making me.

Wait, how does Jesus fit into the "no masturbating to..." rule?

64: Three-day moratorium.

Why we outlawed child labor is beyond me

Sheer protectionism by adults who can't abide labor market competition. A quirk of the law denies children the franchise, thus legal adults were able to legislate their way into a protected monopoly. As with every attempt at government interference in the labor market, global competition will eventually force dirigiste governments to let the Invisible Hand work its magic.

So you've never actually read the SWPL site then, have you? No wonder you had such a settled opinion about it!

67: I read it; I didn't memorize it.

Wait, how does Jesus fit into the "no masturbating to..." rule?

Falls under the rarely used resurrection exception. However, masturbation fantasies which implicate the stigmata are still strictly proscribed.

Stick to your guns, B. The seller will agree. Heck, take it out of the listing broker's commission. Half a loaf is better than none.

68: You don't remember:

When asking someone about their biggest annoyances in life, you might expect responses like "hunger," "being poor," or "getting shot." If you ask a white person, the most common response will likely be "people who use 'their' when they mean 'there.' Maybe comma splices, I'm not sure but it's definitely one of the two."

That's like basically 94% of SWPL's whole schtick.

66: KR,

Ah, yes, that explains why we haven't yet revoked the child labor laws - we fear the competition.

I knew that we had no qualms about being harsh on the kids. I mean we all fall for the Dr Laura syndrome of wanting to outlaw what we indulged in.

You know, raising the drinking age once we got past it. Creating tougher driver's license requirements. That sort of thing.

59: Wow, AWB is a slut who's bad at math.

No I'm not. I'm just not 23. What I'm saying is, generally, allowing for 5 partners every four years after the age of 13 might work for the young or for people who have long-term relationships, but by the time one gets near 30, the perpetually single person will very quickly become a "slut."

74: the perpetually single person will very quickly become a "slut."

And ....?

but by the time one gets near 30, the perpetually single person will very quickly become a "slut."

I don't need no mathematical formula to tell me this.

I'm okay with that.

That was fast.

Which is the point of the word, to demonize women who fail to conform to the good daughter/young wife/latched knees lifestyle.

Now I feel bad that I said that AWB is bad at math. I'm not really very good at feeling bad, so I would like outsource the job to Ari.

latched knees lifestyle

This must become the name of a blog, or a social movement, or at least a line of t-shirts.

"Yeah, I was a latchknee kid growing up but then my dad decided to stay home with us girls until we left for college."

but by the time one gets near 30, the perpetually single person will very quickly become a "slut."

You say this like it is a bad thing.

Joking aside, personally I think 'slut' is another of those general use pejorative terms like 'lack of common sense' and is simply a way of slamming someone else.

I dislike the term.

Just to be clear - is "latched knees" the opposite of "round heels?" It's really hard to keep current with modern terminology.

Sheer protectionism by adults who can't abide labor market competition.

A friend of mine had a prof at the U of Iowa who claimed that child labor laws were enacted because immigrant workers insisted on bringing their kids to the factory, because they were used to having them with them in the fields all day, you see. So The Powers That Be had to step in.

This sounds so much like a Yes Man performance piece, but, alas, was not.

Does the term slut have much a stigma anymore for anyone past high-school age? I thought it didn't, but I may be living inside the Soup Biscuit YMMV bubble.

Yes Men.

79: Yeah... It's a word that annoys me greatly in most uses, which is why I'll only use it as a self-descriptor. I'm really hoping it gets reclaimed and becomes gender-neutral. The fact that it hasn't happened yet is depressing, since it suggests that society's discomfort with female sexuality and agency is even stronger than its discomfort with the man-on-man buttsex and all the santorum it entails. I've definitely heard "slut" used derisively far more times in the past few years than "queer".

86: I bet it is fairly common for women in their twenties to worry about the number of men they've slept with, and to worry about having to admit that number to their future potentially-judgemental husbands.

I bet divorcees, much less so.

But don't such potentially-judgmental husbands deserve to die unloved and alone?

I recall seeing "slut" used by Graham Greene (in The Heart of the Matter I believe) to mean messy or lazy (and I see that it does have a "chiefly British" meaning of "slovenly woman"). Does this usage still hold there? Exclusively? (And if it is exclusively gendered in that sense as well it is still pretty nasty .)

But don't such potentially-judgmental husbands deserve to die unloved and alone?

And, more importantly, die without reproducing?

Call me clueless but I am becoming enlightened about how many worries females have. Or misled about it. Or hopelessly clueless. (I'm trying to pro-actively nip all criticism - did I miss some?)

Still - so many worries to carry around.

91: Oh, yeah, and in England 'homely' seemed to mean more like a 'homebody' and to not mean 'ugly.'

Call me clueless but I am becoming enlightened about how many worries females have.

This all tracks back to one of the questions which frustrates me most, why are so many women unwilling to acknowledge the damage that the patriarchy causes on their lives? It doesn't seem like other marginalized groups are so slow to acknowledge the ways they are slighted.

What I'm saying is, generally, allowing for 5 partners every four years after the age of 13

With a an extra allowance of 3(.25) on top of that, if I'm reading the formula correctly.

If there is a cap and trade system, I have credits that I could sell you.

[ObUnfogged: IYKWIMAITTYD]

Thanks, TLL! Check your email?

All I'm saying is that "slut" is a pretty useless term that's also especially cruel to the less-lovable among us. I live like a nun most of the time (seriously), but if I want to have sex more than, say, a dozen times in a year, that's probably three different partners right there. Sorry I'm being humorless, but I know that, just because I've had a decent range of sexual partners, a lot of people here seem to think it's funny to call me a slut and joke about what a nympho I am. It's not fun or funny having to look for new partners all the time, just because I have a body and hormones and no one dates me for very long.

FTR, I made up the formula off the top of my head--not completely arbitrarily, mind you, because I wanted it to sound plausible--but without any empirical basis, and with no real personal conviction. And yet it engendered a serious discussion! I guess what I'm saying is, this blog is beginning to resemble my real job.

I apologize, AWB.

It's also a joke, like most sexist jokes, that wears pretty fucking thin when you hear it in enough non-joking contexts. It's one thing if a woman wants to reclaim the term, like the n-word or "faggot," to take away it's power to hurt, but that in itself is an expression of how nasty it is to hear it from people who are privileged enough either not to have sexual desires or to have them fulfilled regularly by someone who cares about them.

its.

I wasn't mad at anybody, Walt. Just throwing in my two cents about how implausible it is to judge sluttiness as an absolute thing in anyone.

91: Barbara Kingsolver mentions this use at the beginning of an essay on housekeeping. It's in High Tide in Tucson, I'm pretty sure.

102: As a non-derogatory term (which probably only exists in my own head and that of a few friends), I picture "slut" as more of an attitude regarding sex. It's a combination of being sex-positive, fairly unconcerned about sleeping with a number of people, and having standards for sex partners that are consistantly different (and probably a fair bit looser) than for relationships.

Numbers alone tell you very little (excepting some of the more extreme examples, of course), whereas the attitude says a lot.

I get the impression the young 'uns don't really view slut as particularly insulting any more, somewhat along the lines PMP describes it. I know I don't. Cheating within an established relationship I do find problematic, though.

105: I do, too, but that's an honesty problem, not a sexual desire problem.

105: It's not "insulting" in the teenage world because girls gain prestige as sexual vehicles through their desirability and desire for sex. Why does all that porn advertise "Wet Sluts 4 U" if the term isn't problematic?

Porn solves all the world's problems. Again.

My barometer is plummeting towards humorlessness.

105: No, it's still definitely a bad thing by-and-large. People may self-describe with it in a more positive or joking way, but pretty much anytime it's used to describe someone else (or as a concern about one's own behavior) it's quite negative. And I have heard it used that way a fair amount, really entirely from people my own age and about equally from both genders.

107: The term is indeed still problematic as evidenced by its sometime being used "jokingly" to mean lack of standards, priniciples or values in non-sexual connotations. (Similar to "I'm/you're so easy" ha ha.) So my use above in 74 was a not very funny joke. (But at least I was first!)

JP Stormcrow is a slut who's bad at comment numbers.

I take PMP's word for it. A shame. I think I always felt pretty sex-positive myself and sought out similar people.

106: right, that's why I make a distinction between the two. They are totally different phenomena, actually.

212: Yeah, I'm easy that way.

AWB: FWIW, I was trying to use the word "slut" in a positive sense out of solidarity with those who want to reclaim the word. I know that never quite works for people who aren't members of the oppressed group (see the n-word.) I thought there might be some leeway to do it here, because we are allowed to do things like address Dr. B as "Bitch"

Christ, now I've made heebie humorless. I'm on some sort of fucking roll today.

I really must live in a bubble. In the circles I travel in, the word "slut" carries almost no charge. It's like "honky". Actually, when I've heard people use the word, it's slightly tinged with envy. The sky is blue in my world, honest.

115: At least you didn't call AWB "my slizzle".

The term is indeed still problematic as evidenced by its sometime being used "jokingly" to mean lack of standards, priniciples or values in non-sexual connotations.

I take its meaning to be a voracious desire for something, a willingness to please and be pleased and the energy to pursue that. As in that website "Bookslut" or whatever; she's promiscuously ready to be swept away by the pleasure books can give. Even obscure unexpected ones.

Since I think a broad capacity for pleasure in life is a key to happiness, I think that's a good quality.

91. Slut in Britain has both meanings, but slattern is primary. An American slut is usually described as a slag.

Tripp is right about "homely" too. The word would be "minger", although it's a fairly recent coinage.

115: As I said, I wasn't mad at anyone in this thread. And this is super-humorless me talking, but there are ways that the "everyone can call AWB a slut because it's so funny" thing around here makes even people who don't know me or care about me think it's a reasonable thing to do in a hostile way under new pseuds. I delete a lot of comments on my own blog, FWIW.

119: I love "minger".

I have an English friend who often says of people he dislikes "he/she could ming for England".

116: Well, most of the times I've heard it in a bad way were either from a couple girls I'm friends with, one of whom is mostly torn between liking sex and caring far too much about a social circle heavily tilted toward misogynistic dicks, while the other is just a very nice and openminded person who for some reason has fairly retrograde ideas about sex outside relationships. When I've heard it from guys, it's really always been semi-random man-on-the-street type utterences, never friends.

So I don't hear the word derisively all that often, but at the same time, no one else I know uses the word. Those who would use it positively or jokingly just plain avoid it because it has so much connoctational baggage.

I think most of my IRL adult friends are people who take sexuality pretty seriously, so although we do have lots of funny, interesting conversations about sex, no one I know in my daily life would call me a slut, even as a joke. Whenever I have heard it IRL, it's been offensive because it's usually from someone who isn't a friend, and therefore lacks the intimacy to make a joke like that.

I remember friends in college joking about sluttiness, but we were all pretty new to sex and had that weird childish nervousness about it that especially-awkward dorks in college have.

I thought there might be some leeway to do it here, because we are allowed to do things like address Dr. B as "Bitch"

We may?!

Even granting that I'm not going to do it.

I respect her right to call herself whatever she likes and I think she respects my right to use language in a mutually respectful manner. No, not a faux-respectful patronizing manner, or a dis-enpowering manner.

Mutual respect is the key.

Man, that Tripp is such a respect slut.

123 was not meant to mean that people who joke about sluttiness are always awkward dorks--different social groups seem to have different rules--but anyone who knows me well knows how seriously I try to take sexual ethics in practice, and how much I wrestle with my choices and limitations. Do I do dumb shit? Of course. I'd have to also give up drinking in order to make 100% wise sexual decisions. But it's not funny to me when I feel I've gone too far or hurt someone's feelings.

So I don't hear the word derisively all that often, but at the same time, no one else I know uses the word. Those who would use it positively or jokingly just plain avoid it because it has so much connoctational baggage.

Yes, exactly. I avoid the B word for exactly the same reason. It has so much baggage.

Mutual respect is the key.

On the veldt, mutually respectful people got more action. That's why people are so mutually respectful today!

127: You shouldn't refer to Bitch PhD as "It", Tripp. It's not very respectful.

M/lls puts out when it comes to reprimands.

94: why are so many women unwilling to acknowledge the damage that the patriarchy causes on their lives?

This must be a rhetorical question: because they'll be accused of humorlessness, or excessive sensitivity or some such if they speak of it. And the easiest route to not speaking of it is not acknowledging it at all. That last is a bit of a hypothesis.

Regarding "slut": still a bad word, to my mind, and not something worth trying to reclaim at all. "Sex-positive" might work, but frankly, I don't see the need for a word to describe this at all. I think that as I've become older, my sexual history becomes less and less relevant to my identity. YMMV!

because they'll be accused of humorlessness, or excessive sensitivity or some such if they speak of it.

No, I mean why are so many women totally blind to the costs in their lives? Why won't they admit it to themselves, or to other women behind closed doors?

'Slut', like 'whore' would only be used jokingly in my circle if referring to something besides sex. (bookslut, camerawhore, etc.)

130: I just can't stop myself. I'm so ashamed.

I love saying "X, you ignorant slut". It's most fun with guys.

134: One good way to visualize your shame is by picturing yourself as a daisy, and your petals are picked off with each encounter, and probably by now you've been stomped on and flattened. Does that help?

With regard to "It doesn't seem like other marginalized groups are so slow to acknowledge the ways they are slighted", one factor I think is the fact that most marginalized groups have ways to spend a significant part of their existence away from the marginalizing group(s), e.g. within their own family or in a neighborhood where they constitute the majority.

This creates more space to form an identity apart from the marginalizers. For women, however, getting away from the patriarchy in any significant or extended way is a much more difficult proposition.

132: No, I mean why are so many women totally blind to the costs in their lives?

Training? Upbringing? An inability to see that there are other options, or that there should be. Being totally blind to it is different from being unwilling to admit it.

I have an English friend who often says of people he dislikes "he/she could ming for England".

My favorite Britishism for which there is no US equivalent is "pong" It means a bad smell. As in "do your laundry, your room has quite a pong".

132: I think part of it is that the entire misogynistic thing is about getting women to overvalue the praise they get from giving men pleasure ("Yeah, take it off! Yeah!") even if it's followed by bad treatment, while making them devalue the kinds of praise they might get about themselves as individuals. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, and it can be a really hard thing to let go of, to various degrees, over time. And, in another sense, the feminine urge to gratify others can be a really good thing that we don't want to lose, but rather to spread beyond the female gender.

That is, what if it's not the urge to gratify that is itself, an evil, but the demands made on someone who has an urge to gratify? Maybe the thing women have to learn is not how to stop wanting to please people, but to identify unreasonable demands, when possible, as those detrimental to self-worth, and to also learn that male gratification is not the only kind worth doing.

the kinds of praise they might get about themselves as individuals

...this being, I think, the kind of praise men are raised to find gratifying.

If I told you which promising young philosopher kept his own feces in the freezer for an entire year, you would be amused.

The answer is obviously the young Kripke.

Aristotle.

Can the Hollywood version Young Kripke in Love be far away?

143: That would be amazing.

There's something peculiar about that Girls Gone Wild dynamic, where praise must be followed by bad treatment. I've never seen it in person, so I don't know how it works.

Studies for his lost book, De Assellandu Animalium.

Wait, that's not right. Assellando?

In this way as in so many, Aristotle was a forerunner of modern philosophical practice--specifically, the practice of wiping your ass and sending it to a journal.

getting women to overvalue the praise they get from giving men pleasure ("Yeah, take it off! Yeah!") even if it's followed by bad treatment,

Especially since the volume on the praise for conforming to the standard model of male pleasure is 100X louder than any other positive reinforcement available to women or men in our society.

I bet divorcees, much less so.

Depends very much on the divorcee and her social circle, I suspect. Anecdotal evidence suggests there are at least some divorcees for whom this remains a concern.

Here's the catch-22. I'm 35 years old. I really have negligible sexual experience. Married my first, etc. Being inexperienced at 35 seems (at least to me) to carry a bit of a stigma at 25. Acquiring experience comes with it's own stigma. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

111: (Similar to "I'm/you're so easy" ha ha.)

One of the first guys I dated post-UNG loved to joke like this. "Ha, ha, ha. You slept with me. You're easy." Ha ha ha. Not very funny. True enough, I suppose, but not very funny. And probably not unrelated to the qualms of a divorcee about the number of men they've slept with.

at 25

146: Unfortunately, that describes a pretty broad swath of different male behaviors, so it's impossible to know what's driving them all. In the GGW scenario, I think it's about homosociality (don't be too friendly with a chick after you've gotten what you wanted or the other dudes will think you're soft). But I haven't run into that much outside of frat houses.

IME, there's usually some kind of self-loathing involved.

Scenario A: Guy gets all hot talking to a girl about sex and asks her to describe what she's done before, sincerely wanting to have sexy conversation that might be interesting for their relationship. After she gives a few details, he gets intimidated by her experience, jealous of other partners, and calls her a disgusting slut.

Scenario B: Guy has a great time in bed with a girl who's open-minded and giving. He asks her for stuff and she does it. He's turned on by her willingness to please him. After orgasm, it sort of freaks him out that she's so willing to do all that stuff for lousy old him. He's not that great, and doesn't deserve her trust and eagerness, and so she must just be really easy. Disgusting slut.

Scenario C: Guy asks girl to do some really freaky stuff in bed. She is nervous about it, but decides to be game and goes along with it. The freakiness is a giant turn-on, until, after orgasm, he's disgusted with himself for wanting something so weird in bed. And she doesn't seem to be freaked out at all! Disgusting slut.

I'm not saying these are all the reasons someone acts this way; I'm sure there are guys who just really love manipulating women and treating them like shit. But IME, that initial desire and pleasure at her eagerness to gratify him seems really real and sincere. It's just that he can't accept it, after the fact, because that would mean that he was somehow special or worthy, or else she doesn't have very discriminating sexual ethics.

It's one of the reasons I seem to get along best, at least sexually, with guys who seem kind of arrogant, as opposed to the emo type. They do think they deserve the things they ask for, and don't have a lot of post-orgasm self-loathing backlash. YMMV.

All three of those scenarios involve a woman who is comfortable with her sexuality outside of male approval, though. I don't think those apply very well to women who are blind to the damage of the patriarchy on their lives.

I think in the GGW situations there is a lot of smelling neediness and desperation in the woman, and maliciously exploiting it to further denigrate her.

153: Oof, yeah, I can see a lot of those scenarios happening. They seem to strike to the heart of a lot of the logical disconnects and conflicting societal messages that people are dealing with regarding sex, and especially with people's tendencies to take internal dissonance or turmoil and try ever so desperately to externalize it.

This is also somewhat related to people just thinking differently when really horny or in the heat of the moment, either wanting to try new, slightly risque things as in scenario C or possibly going to bed with someone you didn't really find or feel like you should find attractive. When you have the post-orgasm lack of horniness, bam, you got cognitive dissonance again and can lash out if you're a bit of a jerk.

I know the first time it happened to me, I ended up just being a dick to the girl in question because I felt so bad that I'd had sex with someone I didn't feel attracted to. The fallout was pretty terrible, but it took that kind of social falling out to make me realize that A) having sex with someone you're not particularly attracted to most of the time is not a big deal, B) being a dick about it really is a big deal, and C) if you made a choice to have sex with someone or to try something new, it's ludicrously stupid to blame the other person for going along with it.

And your last point in 153 is definitely right. Self-loathing makes fun and healthy sex pretty difficult. It's terrible when you're choosing between neurotics and assholes for your lovin' options, but I can see why one would go with the assholes.

154: All three of those happened to me while I was still really addiction to male approval, though. I was being told by the guys that they wanted me to do something and that it would make them happy if I did. And then, surprise!, it made them hate me.

In the long run, it's conditioned me to think of sex almost exclusively in terms of what I want to talk about and what I want to do, in general, and would do with or for any partner, not for their praise or gratification, but for my own. I know that's a "good" thing, but there's a little part of me that sees that girl I was at 19, how trusting and unconditionally giving she was, and I sort of miss her. There was something deeply selfless about that willingness to do something exclusively for someone else's joy. I suppose some people never lose that sense of trust, because they don't feel betrayed by it, or they get it back in a long-term, mutually trusting relationship. But being on one's guard all the time against the possibility that someone says they want something, which you know you could very easily give, that they will hate you for having given them, makes for a pretty serious coldness.

156: addicted

156 helps frame the response I had to 153. Yeah, the asshole isn't going to project his self-loathing on you because he doesn't loathe himself at all. But he's also not going to have any real sense of gratitude to/for you because, after all, you gave nothing more than he deserved anyway. It doesn't strike me as being any more fulfilling a scenario.

This thread is making me sad. In my world, saying "you're so easy" is the gentlest of teasing, a joking way of acknowledging someone is a sexual being. It's about as strong a criticism as "Hot enough for you?" when talking about the weather. Calling someone "racist", as is the house style here, is about 80 times more shocking to me.

159: Sluttist.

It's slatternist, you racist.

156: Oh, hmm.

Maybe there's a distinction between 154 and 153 in the fact that 153 scenarios all occur privately, in the bedroom, and I was picturing GGW as involving public humiliation, at the club during Spring Break.

Well I at least I didn't call you articulate.

159: Yeah, but I bet that rolling off someone right after orgasm, sighing contentedly, then turning to them and saying "you're so easy" is still deprecated.

Between friends, it's pretty much always a joke. But that's also because friends will typically know you well enough to know you have standards, even if they differ from most people's.

Yes, exactly. I avoid the B word for exactly the same reason. It has so much baggage.

You shouldn't refer to Bitch PhD as "It", Tripp. It's not very respectful.

Oh I dunno, have you ever traveled with her? It's like "It wants to take all this luggage?!

Oh I dunno, have you ever traveled with her? It's like "It wants to take all this luggage?!

It's funny, because she doesn't look Druish.

"It puts the lotion in the carry-on."

i like these two old romances very much
she looks like AWB btw, was thinking she reminds me someone, and i recalled!
the music videos i don't like that much, too dramatic poses imo, the clips are from the early 90ies i believe, so it explains the fashion and all, but the lyrics and melodies are just so great if to listen without watching
hope you'll enjoy

Anyway, I meant it was disrespectful to It.

One good reason never to tell someone you've just slept with that they're easy is that there's no response that wouldn't be freaky, insulting, or just dumb.

A) Well, you're just so special and amazing, I couldn't help myself.

B) I've never done that before. (Probably a lie.)

C) Yup, I guess I am pretty easy. I like sex.

D) So are you.

Au contraire, 170.D is an awesome response should anyone tell you you're easy.

I'm difficult.

But being on one's guard all the time

Is hard to avoid. Every morsel of trust is a precious thing.

One of the first guys I dated post-UNG loved to joke like this. "Ha, ha, ha. You slept with me. You're easy." Ha ha ha. Not very funny. True enough, I suppose, but not very funny. And probably not unrelated to the qualms of a divorcee about the number of men they've slept with.

Pardon me but Holy Crap!

No wonder people were taking me the wrong way, at least at first. You've been out with dicks!

This pisses me off. Partly for selfish reasons - guys like that give all guys a bad name - but also because why do people need to be such stupid aholes?!

Yeah, I know - people!

But really. I assume this guy got what he wanted, in general. Why be such a prick later? That is just stupid. If I knew that guy I'd chew his ass and punch his face.

I love that a thread titled "it's been a while since we did this" has turned into a thread about gender relations and so on, because, hey, it has been a while.

I dunno, D) seems pretty funny.

If I knew that guy I'd chew his ass and punch his face.

Chew his ass! Do it!

175: I was thinking that, too.

171: It's the one I've resorted to, but it has drawbacks. One is tempted to add, "Well, you're the one who put your hand up my skirt in a bar."

I'm off for the afternoon. Toodles, y'all.

175: Well the Unfoggedetariat isn't easy when it comes to gender relations and so on, Sifu.

If I knew that guy I'd chew his ass

He says that would make him happy, but he would just belittle you for it afterward.

What makes "you're easy" funny to me, in my little bubble, is that the underlying assumptions that inform it are cock-eyed. As I think we've established in previous threads, everybody has "standards". It's nonsensical. It's like criticizing someone for the number of ice cream flavors they like. They like the number they like -- it's not really a question of standards.

No Walt, the number of ice cream flavors you like is objectively disgusting.

182: flavor-slut.

Pwn's arrow never points one way for long.

Ha! I don't like ice cream at all! I am virtuous, unlike you! You're probably licking a cone right now. With your tongue even. Repulsive.

185 is a rare bit of poetry in a cold and gray world.

182: it's not really a question of standards.

Properly viewed, everything is a question of standards lest we descend to the level of mere beasts.

Walt,

Yeah, and there's also the Marxian "Workers of the world . . . " no, wait, I mean "I won't join a club that would have me as a member" thing.

And Heebie, point me in the right direction and I'm you're huckleberry. A part of me would love to punch an ahole right in the kisser. I really miss being able to legally hit someone as hard as I can. Talk about liberating.

You're probably licking a cone right now. With your tongue even. Repulsive.

As Tom Waits has said, "I've got a cherry popsicle, right on time / I've got a big stick mama that'll blow your mind".

And as Richard Thompson observed, "Girl on the corner with the tight dress on / You know she don't know nothing so fine / Feels so good when you put it in your mouth / Sends a shiver all down your spine / Sends a shiver all down your spine".

And all this talk about chewing asses and punching kissers and skirts and hands is making me feel funny . . .

As I have discovered over the years, women find sincere offers to kick someone's ass unnerving. Chalk it up to the eternal mystery that is Woman.

Ha! I don't like ice cream at all! I am virtuous, unlike you!

"I don't like ice cream" is the new "I don't even own a television."

women find sincere offers to kick someone's ass unnerving.

Tell me about it. And it's even worse when you reach for your pistol and offer to put a cap in someone's ass for her. As the saying goes, you can't live with 'em, you can't live without 'em!

As I have discovered over the years, women find sincere offers to kick someone's ass unnerving. Chalk it up to the eternal mystery that is Woman.

Oh. OK. What if I just sincerely say I want to kick someone's ass. Still unnerving?

You can identify the rot in our society from the fact that strip clubs have no windows, but ice cream parlors have brightly lit glass windows, where just about anyone can look in. And those ice cream trucks that drive down the street! At the prices they charge, they might as well be giving it away.

No, go back to punching someone's asshole with your kisser. That was more vivid.

Perfect ending to a gender thread -- women complaining about guys who done them wrong, and the guys chivalrously supporting them and offering to punch out their enemies.

OT, but here is an autism spectrum test -- I took it and scored well above average (28, when the male average is 17...32 is "very high"). Hmmm. Explains a lot.

http://www.msnbc.com/modules/newsweek/autism_quotient/default.asp

196 to all of you.

I swear somewhere in the archives we've discussed some conservative pundit dude who rails against how disgusting it is that people lick ice cream cones in public. I can't find it at the moment, but I know it's there.

What makes "you're easy" funny to me, in my little bubble, is that the underlying assumptions that inform it are cock-eyed. As I think we've established in previous threads, everybody has "standards". It's nonsensical. It's like criticizing someone for the number of ice cream flavors they like. They like the number they like -- it's not really a question of standards.

That's just it, Walt. The cock-eyed assumptions are that good or virtuous or decent girls don't much like ice cream at all and must be persuaded to eat the ice cream because it is good for them (as a binding agent in the bonds of matrimony) or because the particular cone is so irresistible she just can't help but want a lick.

Not to malign Mr. Easy though. I don't think he meant ill -- just clueless.

195: well, they make up the balance selling crack.

196 to all of you

Di demurs.

199: Somewhere it was discussed. it was Leon Kass U of Chicago bioethicist and chair of the Presidents Council on Bioethics 2002-05.

Worst of all from this point of view are those more uncivilized forms of eating, like licking an ice cream cone --a catlike activity that has been made acceptable in informal America but that still offends those who know eating in public is offensive. I fear I may by this remark lose the sympathy of many reader, people who will condescendingly regard as quaint or even priggish the view that eating in the street is for dogs. Modern America's rising tide of informality has already washed out many long-standing traditions -- their reasons long before forgotten -- that served well to regulate the boundary between public and private; and in many quarters complete shamelessness is treated as proof of genuine liberation from the allegedly arbitrary constraints of manners.

I am exactly average on the autism test. I am the Norm. You must measure yourself against me. Looking a little short there.

I swear somewhere in the archives we've discussed some conservative pundit dude who rails against how disgusting it is that people lick ice cream cones in public. I can't find it at the moment, but I know it's there.

He's no pundit, he's a professor at an eminent university and a former member of the President's Whatever on Bioethics. That's right, it's Leon Kass! There are four posts about him on this page; this is the ice-cream one.

No, this is the ice-cream one. I see I'm well and truly pwned, though.

I really miss being able to legally hit someone as hard as I can.

This was back when you were an L.A. cop?

199: That would be philosopher Leon Kass (U. Chicago), former chair of the President's Council on Bioethics (2002-2005).

I use the term "philosopher" with great reservation.

OK, "Norm Someguy" it is. "The Norm Someguy", that is. Or just "The Norm" for short.

I really miss being able to legally hit someone as hard as I can.

As hard as you could.

or because the particular cone is so irresistible she just can't help but want a lick

A substantial failure of the analogy ban, because while this may often be true in the case of ice cream, it is pretty laughably false when applied to men.

Also, the entire notion of wanting to kick people's asses for women is taking me back to the more unfortunate parts of this weekend. I really can't stand drunken or just plain stupid guys at concerts who don't seem to realize that moshing around, shoving everyone else out of the way, or leaning on everyone else around them isn't a good idea when many of the people stuck in the crush are teenage girls (maybe) half their size. Grrr...

197: I scored 25, but I might have been too generous to myself on questions like "It is easy for me to tell if what I'm saying is boring for someone I am talking to."

"It is easy for me to tell if what I'm saying is boring for someone I am talking to."

How could you tell, unless the person you were talking to said "ok, now I'm bored"?

In Taiwan "ice cream" means "boobs" (because of the scoop shape).

I'm certain I would have scored differently on that autism test if there'd been a neutral option among the answers. People who like solitude aren't necessarily borderline Aspergery, you know, Newsweek.

I scored 28, but pretty much knew what answers went with what, so can't be trusted.

Does excellent archival linkage negate total pwnage?

215: it's a spectrum, dude. If you're under 35, you're not borderline anything.

It's also a stupid, uninformative web quiz that pointlessly simplifies a complex diagnosis, but that's neither here nor there.

The best part about that autism test?

Look at the final credits for where it came from: a 2001 paper, the lead author on which is Baron-Cohen, S.

Ali G can suss out if you're autistic, bitches!

PGD,

Perfect ending to a gender thread -- women complaining about guys who done them wrong, and the guys chivalrously supporting them and offering to punch out their enemies.

Well thank you. (blush) One tries, you know, one tries, but "perfect?" You praise too highly. Really, you do.

Oh. Was I supposed to read between the lines or something?

220: That's actually his brother, Simon.

197: I got thrown by the "I am fascinated by dates" question -- realizing just before I answered that they meant dates, as in "July 21."

213: The preferred locution is "Bored now," said in a sing-song voice.

224: You were thinking of date-flavored ice cream, weren't you? Disgusting.

199: The guy has a point. Did he mention how in America we all dress like peasants?

It's true. I blame the ultra-rich patriarchy.

13. I am the very face of empathy.

the very face of empathy.

Have I gushed about the Exploratorium in San Fran enough yet? There was this one exhibit there where you and a partner each hold a paddle in front of your face with a cut out so you can just see each other's eyes. Then there is a list of six or so questions. The idea is to "ask" one of the questions on the list with only your eyes. Rory read my eyes accurately EVERY SINGLE TIME. (I am not that good, alas.)

215: this is a scientific test written by Borat's uncle, a big professor at Cambridge, so it's not just Newsweek. It did seem like they were basically just measuring introvert/extrovert though, just being somewhat introverted (feeling drained by highly social situations) made you above average "autistic". So that seems off -- I'm an introvert deep-down, but I can even do a reasonable imitation of an extrovert when I need to.

I have a theory that a lot of the "nice guy" resentment is basically just introverted guys who are OK with spending a lot of time alone but not OK with not getting laid, the inevitable concomittant.

216: I could the scoring too, but I really honestly wanted to know if all the rocking in the corner banging my head against the wall and repeating memorized train schedules made me autustic or just a little eccentric. So I didn't cheat.

229: Was one of the questions "Voulez vous couchez avec moi, ce soir?"?

It's also a stupid, uninformative web quiz that pointlessly simplifies a complex diagnosis

We haven't had enough of those lately here either -- they're a cheesy web staple!

Multiply pwned on the Borat thing, and I was wrong about the relationship (cousins).

Don't feel bad, PGD. I was wrong about the relationship, too.

I'm an introvert deep-down, but I can even do a reasonable imitation of an extrovert when I need to.

Interesting. What is that, kinda like "Hiya! Howya doin'?"

I have a theory that a lot of the "nice guy" resentment is basically just introverted guys who are OK with spending a lot of time alone but not OK with not getting laid, the inevitable concomittant.

Oh, yeah, you are onto something. My similar theory is that a lot of guy's problems stem from not getting laid enough. Yeah.

That and the inevitable tension between order and chaos.

Simon B-C is Ali G's cousin, not his brother, and not his uncle neither.

236: Today is a day of pwnage for young ben. Whaddya on dial-up or something?

Cosmo has quizzes archived, but they're terrible and flash to boot. Oprah usually doesn't have quizzes. A well-written quiz is an underappreciated literary genre; I really wish they were bylined; there used to be someone really good at Cosmo in the early nineties.

236: ok, now I'm bored.

That and the inevitable tension between order and chaos.

that's a lot of it too, yeah. The infinite human longing for status, power, and pleasure may also play a role.

Heh- I scored a 9, but don't think of myself as particularly gregarious.

Pssst! Sir Kraab!

You still in your pajamas?

PGD,
240
Wow. You're smart. Does it help you get laid? I'm always looking for tips.

I'm always looking for tips

Just be yourself and you'll get what you deserve seems like the right answer here.

Just be yourself and you'll get what you deserve seems like the right answer here.

That's just directed at Tripp, right?

See the thing is I don't want what I deserve. I want more. Lots more.

I scored 22, high for girls. But I had to strongly disagree with all the savant-type questions: fascination with numbers, train schedules, remembering dates. So that just makes me extra socially awkward, I guess. Is it weird that I said that?

See the thing is I don't want what I deserve. I want more. Lots more.

Yeah, fuck getting what you deserve. That's why be yourself is terrible advice -- you'll likely get as much as the average guy deserves. Fuck that.

||

Does anyone know anything about Ameriplan's Dental Plan? I need to go to the dentist, and I can't figure out if there's some secret reason that it's not a good deal.

|>

PGD

I repeat - you're smart. I want to hear your tips. Email if you must.

That's just directed at Tripp, right?

Sure. Just be yourself is terrible generic advice for socializing with new people. The problem is you become what you pretend to be. It's hard to trust people, so the tendency (mine at least) is to wait too long to open up to new people, who usually make decisions based on a first impression.

high for girls

I did notice that the average score for girls women was lower than that for boys; women are more prone to extroversion than boys?

No, they're just trained to imagine that they like people.

By definition someone asking for advice has already failed by "being themselves."

It is like a yacht. If you have to look a dead horse up the arse yourself or by bus like a banana.

Ooops, sorry, gotta reboot.

253: Got it.

they're just trained to imagine that they like people.

Great sentence.

Yeesh. I got a 35.

I scored an 8.

women are more prone to extroversion than boys?

IANAD, but I think it's a significant misunderstanding of autism to conceive of it as an introversion/extroversion thing. It's more about the capacity for connecting with other people -- reading emotional cues, etc. You can be very extroverted and still totally unable to connect.

259: Of course; "extroversion" was just shorthand.

OMG, where is Will when we need him?

Are you getting divorced?

I got an eleven, with my thumb only slightly on (or under) the scale.

Wow. You're smart. Does it help you get laid?

no, of course not.

Eighteen for me, but I am so extremely self-evidently nowhere near the autistic spectrum that I'm not sure why I even bothered.

Parsi almond curry for dinner tonight!

I don't know what that is but it sounds good!

This, only I made one of the vegetarian variations suggested in the cookbook. (This is the same cookbook that provided the cardamom cake recipe.) The recipe makes an impressive quantity of food, but since it tastes even better once it's had a day or few to sit, that's hardly a problem.

38

In other me-related news, creating the schedule for a conference certainly is a pain, all the more so because one knows the results are sure to produce the same reaction one has had at every conference one has attended oneself: Good lord, what the hell were the schedulers thinking?

20 for me, but it's quite a silly test. I think I would have scored higher when I was younger.

I dont know, maybe I cheated a little. I consider myself empathetic but anti-social, and probably read cues a little better than the answers I gave on the test. But, yeah, I score really great on Augsberger's/Autism tests. Just ace those suckers sometimes.

But there are more syndromes on Heaven & Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Prof Borat.

Is there a syndrome name yet for people who cheat on Asperger's tests to sound more "autistic" but would never seek any kind of medical diagnosis or assistance in learning to navigate social situations?

272:Well let's count symptoms:Does he sometimes feel irrational rage at unjustified and probably imaginary attacks from so called "very nice people?" Probably crazy.

Can we continue this "I have a friend" mode for an entire thread? Doubtful.

Munchausen syndrome maybe
now i feel i like those clips, coz the 90ies, almost 20 yrs, feel nostalgic perhaps and Valeriya is one of my faves
i even had some kind of similar fluffy sweater then

273 that's not about you of course
and besides, what's good to feign autism though
one would better to feign popularity perhaps

one would better to feign popularity perhaps

This should go in the mouseover text queue.

I got an 8. Which means that I'm heebie. Which means that I'm always right! I always ace tests.

better to feign popularity perhaps

You may have meant sociability rather than popularity, but people feign popularity too. Described as "self-confidence" and other ways.

If you want to laid a lot, make money, get elected President, you can fake socialibiity. It's the default mask. I did it for twenty years, and still have a habit.

I got an 8. Which means that I'm heebie.

What does it say about unfogged that the local poster-child for extroverts is a math professor?

Heebie got a 42. She's a mathematician, like Erdős.

Part of the problem I had with the test was what I considered the double negatives and complicated questions.

"I do not get upset if my daily routine gets disturbed"

Strongly agree, slightly agree, etc.

I assume they have a reason for writing some of the questions that way.

If the test were a little smarter, it would have given me a result like "you're not Asperger's, you're just misanthropic!"

266 - It was frigging delicious, maybe 20% more spicy than optimal to appreciate the deliciousness. If I had cut it with a lassi, it would have been perfect.

216: I knew which answer would indicate "high on the autism spectrum" every time, but I was still able to answer each question in a way that seemed honest to me (I scored a 29). This is totally unlike my experience with the Right-Wing-Authoritarian test, where I immediately knew which answers made you an authoritarian *and* immediately felt obligated to avoid those answers, thus scoring a 20, the lowest score possible.

I guess this means that I don't mind be labeled autistic, and can answer honestly, but I do mind being labeled fascist.

Fascists never want to be called fascists, Rob.

278: Bob is smart.

Except Mussolini. But you're no Mussolini, Rob.

I say this as a friend.

284:Since socialization is so highly valued, many of the questions fairly obvious, and a sliding scale provided, I would tend to assume deception (conscious or not) in those with the low scores.

So easy to click "strongly agree" when the truth is really "slightly agree"

My lifetime of experience is that a major portion of the population is like George Bush, who would likely get a score under 15 on that test. Bomb you, smile, and consider themselves people-people.

Oh! Oh! Talking about those valuable "social skills", this is great, from Barry Rittholz.

Fraud

Gary Kafka, former body builder with a long rap sheet and violent past, wrote millions of dollars in mortgages in South Florida without ever applying for a state license.

Fresh out of prison after serving time for bank fraud, he never went through a criminal background check before selling loans. He never took a competency exam.

He never had to...

But I bet he could really talk to people and make them laugh, so he wouldn't need therapy.

My Mexican-American Army-lifer nephew-in-law totally loves "Oh Brother Where Art Thou", which he's watching for the fifth time in the next room. See, the whole world is one. Unfortunately he's a Cowboys fan.

I would really like to apply that test to the legions of maroons who have descended upon the comments section of anyone who expressed a glint of reservation about The Dark Knight.

(For "that test" read "the business end of a 2x4". Really. It's so sad over at The House Next Door.)

I meant it was disrespectful to It.

Unfogged threads always encourage me to learn new things. For example: Until now I didn't know that "Cousin Itt" is spelled with two "t"s. I didn't know that Jackie Coogan, Charlie Chaplin's famous sidekick, played Uncle Fester. And I didn't know that Blossom Rock (Grandmama Addams) was Jeanette MacDonald's sister. This has been a productive evening!

It's more about the capacity for connecting with other people -- reading emotional cues, etc. You can be very extroverted and still totally unable to connect.

Then you realize "Hey, people think I'm emotionally connecting with them, but I'm not!" And become a sociopath/businessman.

||

Why do the special running shoes they select for you at the running shoe store all have to look so damn stupid?

|>

294: it's to signal to people how special the running shoe is. It obviously must be designed that way for important functional reasons, since obviously you would never wear a shoe like that for its looks.

153: AWB, I just want to say how great I find this explanation - it sets out clearly a phenomenon I had sort of been aware of. E.g. a friend of mine's story about a guy she knew. He told my friend that he'd asked his girlfriend if they could do something in particular, the girlfriend agreed, and in his words "That's when I knew she wasn't The One."

296: I must state the obvious, because otherwise I'm going to explode. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. That is so stupid, that I would even be surprised if the next line of the story was "And the name of that guy? George W. Bush."

I don't know how my friend refrained from thumping him. Maybe she was just too stunned. He was her boss at the time, too, if I remember rightly, and this was a drunken confidence. She's a freelancer in the music industry, and I think he was the tour manager for a medium-successful rock band. Lots of misogyny in that world.

Speaking of autism-related news, Michael Savage is pretty much the world's biggest asshole. Apparently what all those autistic kids need is to be told by a stern father to drop the "act." In retrospect, he realizes he might have been meaning to insult kids with ADHD, but figures he was probably right about autism as well.

He will get fired, right? Right?

In related news, Shark-Fu's autistic brother jumped out of a moving car yesterday and was rushed to the hospital. I expect Michael Savage to make a comment about how, with the proper hateful, emotionally abusive parenting, things like that would never happen.

296: Damn. I really hate how there's this misogynistic line guys do about emotional stuff---"Listen, I'm not a mind-reader"---to cop out of being compassionate, when a man's total lack of compassion forces a woman to be a mind-reader ALL THE TIME. He's asking me what I want to do because he really has something specific in mind. He's requesting a specific thing because he wants me to say no to it. He tells me he doesn't want something because he wants me to pressure him into it.

I know every story about how men act when they're dating makes the married guys around here crow about how unbelievable it is that human beings act this way, but it's possible they've forgotten that, really, MOST single straight men act this way. It's not just New York, it's not just my personal social set. Most single men act this way. And most of them have no idea they're doing it, because they're totally unaware of the gender privilege that enables them to do it.

299: I see that AFLAC pulled its advertising from his show in response, and my first question is "WTF was a reputable insurance company doing advertising on this Nazi's show in the first place?"

It's a test, AWB, and that dude's girlfriend failed it. What, is he supposed to grade her on a curve, just because she's not a mind reader? How is that fair to the mind readers among us?

it's possible they've forgotten that, really, MOST single straight men act this way

It's also possible that we haven't dated any single, straight men, so there isn't anything to forget.

He's asking me what I want to do because he really has something specific in mind. He's requesting a specific thing because he wants me to say no to it. He tells me he doesn't want something because he wants me to pressure him into it.

Also, I think of these are particularly female behavior patterns, as they drove me batshit insane in just about every relationship I've ever had.

are s/b as

I'm imagining that the typical AWB relationship goes as follows:

Scenario 1:
AWB: Now before we start getting really involved, I want you to know that I'm aware that all men are assholes, but I don't blame you for it, because you're socialized to be that way.
Guy: You're right, I am an asshole.
AWB: Your honesty is just what I'm looking for.
Guy: Finally, a woman who won't force me to pretend not to be an asshole!

AWB: Now before we start getting really involved, I want you to know that I'm aware that all men are assholes, but I don't blame you for it, because you're socialized to be that way.
Guy: I've never thought of myself as an asshole before, actually. Why do you say that?
AWB: (long explanation of his assholish properties)
Guy: So...you don't actually want to go out with me, right? Seeing as you think I'm an asshole. I can probably find another woman who won't think that.

OK, most people are shitty. I just ticked off that that kind of behavior is labeled as female when dudes do it all the time.

306: Fuck you, you coward.

Sorry.

306 is seriously dickish. Despite 309's apology.

301: Nazi sympathizers have a surprisingly large number of workplace accidents, from goosestepping into the machinery.

300: It's just not true that most single men are like that. I'm not saying that men are not, on average, assholes, or that single men are not assholes in characteristic ways. But the particular behavior is not characteristic in any general way. The behavior is characteristic of a very narrow sort of privilege. (The fact that the guy in emir's story was a tour manager for a medium-successful rock band is telling in that regard.)

A few months into dating the crazy blonde, I had to very forcefully state that anything I ever said to her was meant 100% literally and that if she'd just listen to the words I actually used rather than playing What's The Hidden Message, I'd be far less likely to punch a wall ten minutes into the latest mystifyingly random dust-up. The corollary, then, was that (ahem) I wasn't a mind reader (ahem) and if she wanted to tell me something to just actually say the goddamn words already.

Not to say that stating these two rules made the least bit of difference because, after all, she was crazy and the entire world was a big ball of hidden meanings that only she could decipher.

This behavior seems to be a particular pet peeve of both you and me.

I know every story about how men act when they're dating makes the married guys around here crow about how unbelievable it is that human beings act this way, but it's possible they've forgotten that, really, MOST single straight men act this way.

Couldn't it also be that we are married now because we didn't act that way while dating?

yours and mine, maybe.

314 -> 313? Apo and TLL are married to each other? That was quick.

I don't think most men are like what AWB/emir describes, but they're common enough to be recognizable, if not as someone I personally dated, someone that a friend or a friend of a friend might have gone out with. Some seem to have a milder form of 296: there's the woman they can see themselves ending up with (but who is too boring to date), and the woman they're dating (but who is too whorish to keep.)

Politics aside, Apo and I enjoy the exploring the wilder parts of the internet. It is a bond that had to find an outlet.

311: You know, it's obviously not all straight single men, and I'd agree it's probably not most straight single men. But it's not a demographically distinguishable set (like "tour manager for a medium-successful rock band", or someone in a similar position) of straight single men; everyone I know has run into that sort of thing. And it makes you jumpy and nervous as all get out: "I'd like to have sex [or do something else more specific] with this guy. He is expressing enthusiasm and desire for having sex [or doing whatever] with me. There's a significant chance that if we go ahead, he'll suddenly act revolted by or contemptous toward me. Suddenly, staying home and watching Law and Order seems more appealing than sex."

AWB is using overly totalizing language, and not all men suck (not that she said "all men suck", of course); I'm married to a very nice one, and I know lots of other very nice men who wouldn't do that sort of thing. But I swear it's not uncommon, and that the risk of running into that sort of behavior drives a lot of sexual caution and reserve among women.

313: I'm hesitant to describe it that way, because there are a lot of good, decent people in the world who aren't married, but, sure, there is certainly a lot of romantic failure that could be prolonged by emotionally insensitive behavior.

Contra 306, I go through a very long process of trying to tamp down my fears about each new person I date and not assume the failures that have happened in the past will occur again. Optimism does result in sharper disappointment, but I don't think there's any kinder way to date. I hate it when men assume I'm some amalgamation of their exes, so I don't do it to the men I date either. Talking on a blog about gender is a very different activity from dating, as should be pretty obvious.

Also, having been with really manipulative men in the past has made me assume with increasing clarity that I should take everything a man says as 100% representative of his actual feelings. This also results in disappointment, but I'd rather be disappointed for the right reasons.

312.last: It's a pet peeve for any number of us. Having to play guessing games is absolutely infuriating. It is true that a lot of people (male and female) strongly resist coming out and simply saying, or explaining, things. Didn't the suggestion arise in some recent thread that some people don't do so because they don't actually know what they mean/think/feel?

318: Right, and none of my experiences have made me shy about sex. Having been treated really weirdly, as in my 153, hasn't made me sexually withholding because I'd rather find out that a guy has those conflicted feelings about female sexuality, so I can end the relationship, rather than assume he has those feelings and act in a manner that is unnatural to me. But it has made me sympathetic to women who are tempted to create "rules" about waiting to have sex.

It is true that a lot of people (male and female) strongly resist coming out and simply saying, or explaining, things.

I'll say that my own behavior that has created the most frustration over the years (across multiple relationships) is answering "Would you rather X or Y?" with "I don't care. Either is fine." The honest-to-god truth is that I really *don't * care, and I'm not asking anybody to figure out my secret preference. But that doesn't seem to be an acceptable reality.

really, MOST single straight men act this way

Unfair and really not helpful.

322: I know what you mean. It took me a long time to understand the complaint, which is really "I can't decide, I'm tired of deciding, it's your turn to decide."

322: Yeah, "either is fine" feels to the hearer, often, like they're being set up for having made the wrong decision when they choose without input. If you want a workaround, picking an option randomly and saying "A is good with me, but you'd rather B, that's fine too," gives the hearer a way to stay safe -- if they go with A, you can't possibly come back at them for not having considered your wishes.

Should anyone be this paranoid? Probably not. But lots of people are.

322:

The problem comes when she doesn't care either. Then you are forcing her to take the responsibility for making a random decision, when you could just as easily make the decision.

Since we can't see into each other's minds, we can't tell whether our interlocutor really doesn't care, or is trying to be polite and send secret messages.

322, 324: turns out to be simple enough to just pick something.

322: OMG, me too. I swear, I'm not harboring any secret burning desire. And, if the choice is really 50-50 for the person asking, I will, if needed, choose one randomly. But the case is often:

Date: Well, I was thinking we could either go to a movie or rent one and stay in.
Me: Either could be fun. There's X showing at Y theater, which I would like to see sometime, but it would also be fun to go rent some old movie we haven't seen.
Date: What's your preference? I really want to know which you prefer, and we'll do that.
Me: Either would be great, really. [pause while I decide to just make a random choice] I can't think of anyone else who would see X with me, so I guess that would be fun.
Date: [sigh] I was kind of more in the mood to stay in tonight.
Me: Great! I'll pick up some wine or something on the way over.
Date: But you wanted to go to the movie! And I want to stay in! But I don't want to disappoint you!

There's no disappointment! I just can't tell if it's more irritating to be wishy-washily easygoing or to not be able to guess his undisclosed preference.

AWB,

but it's possible they've forgotten that, really, MOST single straight men act this way.

I concede that is possible. My personal history was liking girls since birth, being afraid/shy through middle school until Junior in HS, then dating but knowing for sure I wouldn't marry yet until I graduated college at age 21. Dated more then, ready to marry at 23, married at 25.

I did a lot of growing up during that time. I was probably a dick at times. I was mostly trying to figure out how to get females to like me. I'm sure I hurt some feelings. Got mine hurt too.

So I concede that I have little idea about how single guys are nowadays and especially how single guys over 25 are.

But you wanted to go to the movie! And I want to stay in! But I don't want to disappoint you!

Okay, actually getting to this step would be unusual in my experience, and would result in my making a pot of coffee for the express purpose of scalding my interlocutor.

The 'I don't have a preference' thing is hard, because a lot of the time it comes up when no one really cares and wants the other person to make the decision. Why don't we just decide, I don't know.

Why don't we just decide, I don't know.

I do! Really, try it, it's fun.

323 is correct, and I apologize. I guess I'm overreacting to something that happens every time there's some statement of experiences that are not 100% positive with men here. On the one hand, there's the rush to assume that the woman must have made the man behave that way, and on the other is the rush to declare that particular man a bizarre outlier with nothing in common with normal humanity. Is it impossible that a lot of people, men and women alike, are jerks when dating, even in ways they wouldn't be in, say, a marriage or at work?

OMG, me too.

Sometimes I wonder whether you're my female doppelganger, you know.

The virgin/whore guy is recognizable type, but it's not most men. The difficulty with generalizing from one's own dating life to the population is that the people you date is never a random sample, even if you are one of the blessed people with no standards.

I'm of course just generalizing from my own experience, and the experience of men I've known, but I can't point to a single man I've known that was a virgin/whore syndrome guy. (I've heard of cases second-hand.) I've been an asshole while dating, and I've seen other man act like an asshole while dating, but the "I must dump my girlfriend because she's cooperative in bed" is a new one on me.

333: but on the other hand, hey, maybe the men here really are less jerky than the ones you've dated. For one thing, they probably skew older, and for another thing, they hang out here.

330: To be fair, that particular dialogue didn't irritate me much, since I think he hadn't really thought about not wanting to go out until I suggested it as the thing to do. He was, for some reason, quite anxious about seeming like a bad, cheap, or boring date, and it was fairly easy to reassure him that I was happy with his preference.

332: That was the solution shivbunny and I came up with actually. Once we'd established that no one was out for passive-aggressive mindreading, we just take turns deciding things like dinner or evening plans.

333: I can see how that's annoying, and I'm as guilty of it as anybody, but I don't have that reaction to any other person's dating stories. You date some weird dudes.

334: I have less of an interest in voluntary genital mutilation than you do, but yes, otherwise we are the same.

for another thing, they hang out here.

Which might correlate strongly to "don't have much dating experience."

I have less of an interest in voluntary genital mutilation

The involuntary kind certainly carries more of an element of surprise, which is nice.

328: Good grief.

Long-ago moment I still remember with chagrin: I was to see some band with a guy I was considering seeing, and he stopped by my house first. We spent half and hour sitting on the floor looking at my albums, then I dusted off my hands and said that it was probably time to get going.

He says: "Oh, we can stay here if you'd rather."
Me: "No, no, that's alright, I'm curious about this new club!"

Off we go. I later realize ... wait a minute. He wanted to stay in, and um, you know, stay in. Me idiot.

335: My sister gets the opposite; she is perceived as unlikely to be a whore in bed, so she gets guys telling her how perfect she would be for them, while they go and date other women. I don't know of anyone personally who says 'wow, she did X, so I can't keep her around', but it does come through in second-hand stories (e.g., 'I knew this guy in law school, who....')

My new (joking) theory is that AWB lives in the world of Secondhand Stories, kind of like Neverland, but creepier.

For one thing, they probably skew older, and for another thing, they hang out here.

Sifu,

Yeah, and I might piss people off with this simple declarative statement but I think most of the men here are a lot less needy.

Because my personal needs are pretty much being met I can relax and enjoy the company here without including all that my needs would bring to the table.

Here goes simple Tripp but sometimes it is easier to get what one wants by wanting it instead of needing it. There is a difference. Personally I'd rather be wanted instead of needed but I know, for example, my Mom is so insecure she really needs to be needed.

He wanted to stay in, and um, you know, stay in. Mme.

More seriously, though, there doesn't have to be an epidemic of men who harass women on the street for the majority of women to have experienced harassment, but the fact that most men don't notice it doesn't mean the harassers are outliers, either, and I think the same thing applies here. Most people aren't privy to other people's dating life, so it's actually pretty plausible that what guys think other guys do and what women run into differs.

get what one wants by wanting it instead of needing it. There is a difference.

Cheap Trick begs to differ. Didn't I, didn't I, didn't I see you crying, Tripp?

My new (joking) theory is that AWB lives in the world of Secondhand Stories, kind of like Neverland, but creepier.

Right. New York.

I'm actually sorry, AWB. I thought "Auto-banned" was a recognizable pseudonym, although it's not the only one I've used.

I have gotten the impression that because you value honesty very highly, your level of respect for people correlates with whether they say exactly what's on their mind without trying to artificially tailor their personality to fit other people's. And men who tend to be extremely honest, in my experience, are honest because they don't care what other people think of them, usually because of arrogance (occasionally because of strong religious faith). The result is that either they are unbearable to be around or they make up for it by being incredibly charismatic.

So my point was mainly that all your attempts at happiness are doomed to failure, which you know already. I'm sorry to have become angry by your generalization and thus revealed myself as being not inaccurately described by it.

347: Good point.

AWB lives in the world of Secondhand Stories, kind of like Neverland, but creepier.

Manhattan is The Island of Misfit Tools!

350: I'm sorry, too, CN. I am particularly sensitive about that issue because I try *so hard* not to be cynical about new people I'm with. I become cynical in retrospect, but I think the kind of treatment you imagined in your comment is really cruel and wrong, and that may not be clear from my comments here.

347: Great example.

apo,

Yes! I have that album. Yes, the vinyl album. I dunno why I don't toss it. I've still got my original Pinbot too. Are you still jealous?

CN,

And men who tend to be extremely honest, in my experience, are honest because they don't care what other people think of them, usually because of arrogance (occasionally because of strong religious faith). The result is that either they are unbearable to be around or they make up for it by being incredibly charismatic.

That is incredibly astute. Sometimes they are unbearable to some people and incredibly charismatic to others. Sometime they are both to the same person at the same time.

You know me so well. Have we met in real life (tm)?

I've still got my original Pinbot too. Are you still jealous?

Of course. I've got Live at Budokan on vinyl, too.

I agree with 347 too, and think of it as obvious, but that's because I take for granted I don't know important things about the lives of others. Many people seem to pride themselves on how much they know about their many friends, which can lead them to feel that something they don't hear about doesn't happen, or not very often.

I don't know if you can ever succeed in trying not be cynical about someone if you are at the same time recognizing that he is similar to the people who made you cynical in the first place.

358: I don't know if you've ever been around here when I am dating someone, but it's all I can do not to comment that he shits gold and walks on clouds. As I've said before, I am bad at grudges and extremely easily charmed, so my cynicism fades pretty quickly.

350: I wish you wouldn't use multiple pseuds. "CN" isn't an easily recognizable variant of "Cryptic Ned" -- that is, the non-email address seems to be the same, but I wouldn't have known without that, and I hadn't even thought "Auto-banned" was the same person. Switching ID's very occasionally, for a gag, is one thing, but maintaining multiple non-transparently related identities is not a good thing -- you get into conversations where you have context the other person doesn't, and the results are bad. (There are occasional privacy related exceptions, but given that "Cryptic Ned" isn't your real name either, that doesn't apply.)

That is, it's only in retrospect that I realize the disappointing fellow is similar to other disappointing fellows in a disappointing way. I am fully and wholeheartedly looking forward to not being disappointed by someone.

most men don't notice it doesn't mean the harassers are outliers,

One of the big realizations for me the first time we had this conversation, lo these many years ago, was that women seldom get randomly harassed when they are accompanied by a man, so the fact that I hadn't seen it happen in years was a useless barometer of its actual rate of occurence.

cynical is bad? Hope for the best but expect the worst, what is the adjective for this state of mind? Since hope and expect shade into each other, failure isn't like going back to smoking, but like sitting with bad posture or maybe procrastinating.

362: Not only that, it seems that women seldom get randomly harassed when there is a man anywhere near them other than the harasser(s). Explaining why I've never seen it happen even to a stranger, let alone someone I know.

I am fully and wholeheartedly looking forward to not being disappointed by someone.

Here's your man, AWB.

365: Oh, I was excited about Jesus until he let me down big-time. He never even called.

You have to call him. He's not a mind reader.

I am fully and wholeheartedly looking forward to not being disappointed by someone.
AWB,
I know. The sad truth is that I am already taken. Sorry. Life is cruel at times. I know.

364: is a man anywhere near them other than the harasser(s).

That's a bit of an overstatement. I don't get catcalled much these days, but the last time was a couple of weeks ago near work: I walked past a guy leaning on a car who said something along the lines of "Hey, mami," with a kissy noise. He was talking in a lowish conversational tone. The street wasn't empty, but the next nearest person was probably twenty feet off. I didn't react or break stride, and I doubt anyone else noticed anything happening.

Just, you know, "never seen it happen" doesn't mean you weren't on a street where it did.

Oh, I was excited about Jesus until he let me down big-time. He never even called.

JESUS: ...so I'm thinking, "she's game," and I tell her "Do this in remembrance of me." And she did it! Body and blood and everything! That girl was nasty, I'm telling you. Fun for the night, ya' know, but not someone you can bring home to mother, IYKWIM.

the fact that I hadn't seen it happen in years was a useless barometer of its actual rate of occurence

Bet you don't know anyone who voted for Bush, either.

The reason I enjoy reading Unfogged is because of the completely different take on so many things. AWB's luck in love does not necessarily reveal universal truths, but certain opens a window on behaviour which to me is alien, but obviously exists.

368: Now you've disappointed her, too. Way to represent the team, Tripp.

369 is true. My daily street harasser has gotten nastier as he gets more subtle, so he can even manage to do it while working with someone else without them noticing.

LB,

Just, you know, "never seen it happen" doesn't mean you weren't on a street where it did.

I think you overloaded my "Not" parsing logic gate there. But - hey! Nice to see you. Sounds like you still got it going on. How've you been?

I don't get catcalled much these days

Aww. Hey baby, do fries come with that comment?

372: Yeah, it is my dang honesty that gets me every. Single. Time. Now I've got to over-compensate with incredible charisma again.

(sigh)

Sorry guys.

Bet you don't know anyone who voted for Bush, either.

It's funny how few people voted for Bush, these days.

375: Oh, I'm still devastatingly attractive; but I got catcalled a lot as a teenager and in my early twenties, and since then it's fallen off a lot. It's either because I'm hanging out in different places or that a thirty-something in business clothes (or on the weekends, a scruffy mom with kids in tow) is a less appealing target than a younger woman.

But I should stop commenting. I'm waiting for a draft brief to get turned around, but it's not like I don't have a whole bunch of stuff that needs doing otherwise.

377: 21% approval rating. David Broder remains baffled.

Oh, I'm still devastatingly attractive;

That goes without saying - and the fact that you correctly use a semicolon - well, you kill me. It is not fair. Not fair at all.

But, yeah, work first, play later. I know.

One of my biggest complaints about Texas and the midwest is the elaborate dance of politeness, where you cannot get acquaintences to express a fucking preference for fear of alienating everyone's delicate toesies.

However, the flip side of this inhibition is that there isn't catcalling the way there is on the coasts. In my experience.

Bet you don't know anyone who voted for Bush, either.

I'd expect most of us do. Family, usually living in a different subculture is one main reason, but so are business associates and a few friends. I'd think the person who didn't know anyone rare here.

you cannot get acquaintences to express a fucking preference

AWB has already established that expressing a fucking preference can be fraught.

382: Phonies vs Jerks

You take the good,
you take the bad,
You take them both and there you have the facts of life.
The facts of Life.

there isn't catcalling the way there is on the coasts

I have very little perspective on this, because I do so little walking outside my residential neighborhood. Street harassment was a constant in D.C.

It'd be interesting (in an it-sucks-but-it's-for-science kind of way) to see what happens in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio. Then again, some sociologist has probably already done the research, so I don't have to. Thanks, unnamed sociologist!

385: Awesome reference, Tripp. Double points if you didn't have to look up the lyrics.

Thank you Sir Kraab.

I live to serve.

Speaking of 80's sitcoms, seems Estelle Getty has died.

Estelle Getty has died.

Awww, man. In some ways she lived my dream. God speed Estelle. God speed.

I step away from the computer, and like all Unfogged threads, it' s turned into a goo-goo love-fest.

Do most men catcall? Over 50%? Is that the empirical claim here? I'm skeptical of that too. I think you'd only need 1% of men to be chronic catcallers to make the streets totally unlivable for women.

Were those serious questions, Walt? Of course it's a very small percentage who harass ("catcalling" is too mild in my book), but most men rarely witness it and sometimes don't notice it when it does happens around them.

It was basically a serious question. I was confused by the word "outlier". Harassers are outliers; it just doesn't take many to make the streets hell.

i would quibble over Cala's analogy, in that it's a long way from "every woman has dated at least one guy with the virgin/whore complex" (which, even that doesn't sound true) to "most men have the virgin/whore complex".

I think most men have progressed from the "virgin/whore" dichotomy to the "girl you date/girl you marry" dichotomy, and have also progressed toward seeking a girl who encompasses both parts of the equation.

393: I also don't accept the "most men" portion of AWB's post. I thought Cala's was useful in pointing out that there can be common behavior that is very apparent to many people while many others are oblivious. I'd put myself in the latter category on the woman you date/woman you marry question. It's not something I've encountered or heard my friends talk about, but several people here say it's not a rare occurence.

I also don't accept the "most men" portion of AWB's post.

I recanted, a few times, above.

I know, and I should have said it differently. I was trying to explain why Cala's example helped me understand what you and others were ultimately saying about how common it is, because I really didn't know that.

378: I'd wager it also has something to do with appearing less fragile and easily intimidated by catcalls. But perhaps you never looked easily intimidatable.

321 sums up precisely why I disagree with the sentiment "be yourself and you'll get what you deserve." be yourself and you'll get shit. Plenty of it. But the alternative is being something that isn't you but that you know to be a role that will work to win affection. Which, you know, you may be able to figure out how to make someone fall in love by being someone you're not -- but then they still haven't fallen in love with you, so what's the point.

Still, it's incredibly tempting to stop being yourself when you know yourself is the kind of person a great many guys rather enjoy treating like crap.

Wow, this blew up.

The number one correlate of being a squirrely, passive-aggressive asshole in a relationship is not really wanting to be there. Just being there for the sex or security but not really being excited about the other person. For a number of reasons, I think young men are more likely to end up that situation than young women. Although it's a phase people grow out of once they learn to firmly avoid sex with people they aren't attracted to.

Yeah, I know "He Just Not That Into You" got there first and had a best-seller with it. Oh, well.

I've gone out with a lot of very sexual women and I don't think I can remember one who said that their previous men had looked down on them for being good/enthusiastic in bed. Dating is all about self-selection, I realize, even at one remove. But still.

On the indecisive mind-reading bit...it does happen that you only realize what you actually prefer when someone else makes the decision and you realize what you're really going to do. Has no one else experienced this? This is, admittedly, annoying to all concerned.

I sometimes flip coins to find out whether I have an opinion between options. But if when someone else insists s/he doesn't care, I'll make the freakin' decision and they can like it.

I don't think I can remember one who said that their previous men had looked down on them for being good/enthusiastic in bed

I do think there are fairly obvious disincentives to bringing up "Prior boyfriends who have rejected or mistreated me for being a slut" in conversation with a current love interest. It's usually not a context in which one wishes to appear vulnerable in that regard.

401: seems fair enough

402: maybe, maybe not. In many ways, new lovers want to be vulnerable to each other. Good pillow talk tends to be highly confessional.

The number one correlate of being a squirrely, passive-aggressive asshole in a relationship is not really wanting to be there. Just being there for the sex or security but not really being excited about the other person. For a number of reasons, I think young men are more likely to end up that situation than young women. Although it's a phase people grow out of once they learn to firmly avoid sex with people they aren't attracted to.

This is plausible and appealing as an explanation, but would you flesh out "for a number of reasons, I think young men are more likely...?"

would you flesh out "for a number of reasons, I think young men are more likely...?"

Hell no. I've been around here too long to play that game.

In many ways, new lovers want to be vulnerable to each other.

I can think of nothing more terrifying.

Well, yeah. Particularly new lovers who have a record of bad experiences with past lovers who they made themselves vulnerable to.

404: A theory. Young men are as familiar with the "men are assholes" narrative as women are with the "virgin/whore" narrative. Young men do not want to be assholes and they think that breaking up with someone will make them an asshole -- you can't possibly be an asshole, after all, if she's the one who dumped you! So rather than be honest when something is not working, they stick with something that makes them unhappy, resent that they are unhappy, and take their unhappiness out one the person who (by not yet having dumped them) has made them unhappy. Bonus, by being a passive-aggressive jerk, they can probably provoke the women into dumping them and since it's passive-aggressive, they have plausible deniability for the jerkiness. They tried their best to make her happy, after all, but then she dumped them.

Not suggesting this is a conscious thought process for anyone, of course.

Not suggesting this is a conscious thought process for anyone, of course.

Other than Bertie Wooster, who was often quite explicit about it.

(Er, that came off more bitter in tone than intended. It's meant more as a tentatively sympathetic speculation at the way guys might be reacting to hangups about gendered role expectations.)

402 is right. I've told a lot of things to guys I'm dating, really private things about my life and experiences, but never, not once, the fact that a couple of guys in college thought I was a slut for sleeping with them.

408-410: Interesting, a good stab at gendered role expectations, although I've never been in that position so I can't say from experience. I asked 404 because I wouldn't have thought about the dickishness—admittedly a gendered word—of being in an unwanted relationship as necessarily confined to men, and it's a hard problem for whomever has it. Breaking up is hard to do. I did it badly but I did it; a young woman once broke up with me with what seems to me now exceptional grace and consideration.

Will you kids shut up and get off my lawn. I already told you, screw relationships.

408: Slightly different theory. Nearly every story about a break-up there is, there's a reason. She cheated! He cheated! He turned out to be gay! She moved to Sweden! And many times outside of the movies, the reason for a break-up is just 'eh, not feeling it' or 'eh, I think I can do better.' But there's no script for 'just not into it' (especially if it's a longer term relationship), so people end up miserable, and then it's a short hop to being passive-aggressive because you can't say why you're miserable.

Not suggesting this is a conscious thought process for anyone, of course.

A man I knew once told me that when he wanted to end a relationship he would do everything he could to provoke the woman into breaking up with him. Then he asked me out, but I was busy.

Speaking of street harassment, when I was in my harassable 20s I was thin, and I got a lot of sort of general cat calls. But I'll never forget the time I was walking down 47th St. with a voluptuous friend, and a man walking by actually leaned over to address to her breasts the words "big fucking tits".

A man I knew once told me that when he wanted to end a relationship he would do everything he could to provoke the woman into breaking up with him.

I considered doing that once, because I thought the woman was emotionally unstable and she'd be better able to cope with breaking up with a guy who had turned out to be a jerk than with being dumped by a guy who she still liked. But then I realized it was offensive of me to assume she would be emotionally devastated by breaking up with ME, of all people, so the dishonest douchebaggery plan didn't go far.

Odd things happen when what pop culture tells you is true of all women conflicts with what appears to be true of women in the real world. But it's hard to overcome the whole "women want commitment/men don't", and "women take breakups hard / men take rejection hard" paradigms.

When I was in high school I had a nightmare or at least an anxiety dream, not recurring but probably more than once, that I was in a relationship with a particular girl, and couldn't get out of it. Utterly helpless, march-to-the-scaffold sort of feeling.

So the dread of being seen that way, or that you might be tricked into a situation you couldn't get out of, is definitely in the popular culture. And come to think of it, I've seen a commercial recently where a young man's car loses power and coasts to a stop in front of a billboard showing an engagement ring, which his date interprets as a proposal and immediately calls her mother.

Last night I had a dream that my first marriage was to my high-school girlfriend, whose wedding I am attending on Friday.

That's a funny commercial there in 417.

But there's no script for 'just not into it' (especially if it's a longer term relationship), so people end up miserable, and then it's a short hop to being passive-aggressive because you can't say why you're miserable.

Except, of course, for women there is such a script. Not a flattering one, mind you. But a script. Women are "emotionally unstable" (see G.W. above -- I know, taking you out of context), or fickle, or just plain "make no sense." A woman's perogative and all that -- we don't have to have a rational reason for a break-up because we're just emotional little things. So the guy who has no rational explanation and feels like he can't draw on a girly emotional approach really is sort of forced to goad the woman into doing the dirty work of breaking up.

It just seems like another one of those situations where gender roles and expectations pretty much fuck us all, men and women alike.

A woman's perogative and all that -- we don't have to have a rational reason for a break-up because we're just emotional little things.

Huh, do you really think that's a commonly held idea, even unconsciously? I'd think something like "this relationship isn't meeting my needs" would be the accepted/expected script.

So against my better judgement in 405, I'll add what I think is the missing element to Di's (correct as far as it goes) theory in 408.

For both biological and social reasons, young men are more likely to be the pursuers rather than the pursued in the sexual/romantic game. When you're both driven and trained to pursue, you'll be more likely to end up sexually entangled with partners you'd rather not be with for the long term. (For one thing, you'll have much greater difficulty turning women down on the rare occasions that they pursue you aggressively -- women get lots of practice and support in turning down the frequent passes from men). But this may make you feel like an asshole, and then the dynamic Di describes takes over.

Men grow out of this, but at differing rates. And youth is formative. The experience of pursuit can leave various scars and judgementalism. Just as the same is true for women who are cast in a more passive role.

Just one guy's opinion/generalization.

420: I think "this relationship isn't meeting my needs" sounds much more like an emotional than a rational explanation and is thus more readily available to women than to men under the traditional emotion v. reason scripts.