You're just too zany for the world of photography, Stanley.
I was just about to post about posing for photo IDs and such. Want to do the Unfogged First Ever Stackable Double Poster Entry? I could just paste my paragraph right below.
Otherwise I'll wait for a week and everyone will be like, "Didn't we just have this thread?"
2: That's nothing compared to the Zaniness That Is Stanley.
3: whatever you do, it will be right. Feel free to edit away.
I could just paste my paragraph right below.
Wow, heebie made it onto the cover of the Rolling Stone!
4: well, I guess now-a-days they've got photoshop, and don't have to count it out.
still, out-zany Dali?
4: YOU HAVE NO IDEA. ZURRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
DOUBLE MEGA SECRET STACKABLE POST ACTION!
Stanley's so full of zane, they can only film him in black and white (to minimize the riot of crazily colourful that is otherwise Stanley, of course).
"Serious" and "casual" strikes me as a tight rope to walk. And there's definitely something a bit awkward about that self-consciously candid (but actually somewhat to highly staged) shot for which one is now expected to pose (but without seeming to pose, of course). What I love are the old studio portraits where everybody put on their Sunday best (or perhaps rented the kit from the photographer), and nobody was supposed to smile, and nor were they urged to look relaxed and "natural" or anything like that because it was all meant to be so serious and formal.
My latest ID/passport picture has some optimally slicked down hair/no-collar shirts, for a very Dieter look. This is an improvement over unshaven in a beaten leather jacket look. No smiling in either one.
Yeah, I totally hear you on this. How anyone can, on command, "smile naturally," is beyond me. Grade school picture time was a significant source of trauma every year. I really was trying, dammit! I didn't mean to look like I was grimacing in that picture—a picture I'm pretty sure I sort of got in trouble for, and one that I remember being laughed at when we were at grandma's house while I was sitting there. And then there were the stupid xmas card photos, for which we (my sis and I) went to a portrait studio. I swear; we were trying to smile nicely!
For so many pictures as a kid it really did feel like I was getting in trouble for supposed deliberate recalcitrance when I honestly was trying my best. Fuck smiling nicely.
For a while I thought I had come up with a solution in the form of a closed-mouth half-smile, but it turned out I was scrunching my face up such that my right eye was half-closed, and now there's a whole series of pictures of me like that.
Do the men of Unfogged smile in their ID photos?
If you can't pull off Cowboy Stoicism or Keanuesque Blankness, then there's always the sub-Grantian aw-shucks-wot-me-a-charmer grin.
"Serious" and "casual"
I was asked to do only one at a time. But I suspecting you're funnin' me, anyway. The nerve of your funnin'.
10.latter
Thing is, this is the photographers job, not the subjects. If you're not hitting the right tone, it's their look out.
or anything like that because it was all meant to be so serious and formal.
If you go back far enough, the lack of smiles isn't formality, it's a side effect of being asked to stay motionless for a really long time.
10.latter
Thing is, this is the photographers job, not the subjects. If you're not hitting the right tone, it's their look out.
or anything like that because it was all meant to be so serious and formal.
If you go back far enough, the lack of smiles isn't formality, it's a side effect of being asked to stay motionless for a really long time. You can't hold a smile long enough.
I realized the other day that one big difference between my "bad" photos and my "fine" photos is whether or not the corners of my smile are turned up or down. If I do my smile where the edges turn down, and it makes it look like I'm smelling something awful.
Dunno how the double post happened.
How anyone can, on command, "smile naturally,"
You can't. Better to laugh, really, even if faked.
A brief check of the two photo IDs in my wallet reveals one picture of a grim surf nazi, and another of a wanly grinning probable schizophrenic. Kind of a wash, I'd say.
Yeah, I totally hear you on this. How anyone can, on command, "smile naturally," is beyond me.
The eyes are key.
I grin like a maniac in my ID photos, but only because it feels like the polite thing to do. Registries aren't usually particularly cheer-inducing environments.
Stanley's so full of zane, they can only film him in black and white
Just call him Zane Grey.
I can't do a fake smile that looks remotely plausible. It's only in the past few years that I've even begun to try to smile for pictures, and the results have been mixed. I'm pretty good at Cowboy Stoicism; maybe I should go back to that.
heebie's addition is entirely fitting, because my ID photos are almost always an "I'M IMPOSSIBLY HAPPY TO BE HERE!" face.
I grin like a maniac in my ID photos, but only because it feels like the polite thing to do
You are no longer permitted to grin or smile for your Canadian passport photo, DS. I kid you not (though Stanley I do fun).
Actually, I think the US may have also recently introduced this no-smile for the passport policy?
23: I was serious above; try a chuckle instead, it works better for most people. By which I mean, the result looks natural.
25: smiling fucks up the computerized face recognition.
Yeah, I've figured out that laughing is the only way to get a good-looking smile. I have a hard time laughing on cue either, though.
smilingpretty much everything fucks up the computerized face recognition.
nice job on the strikethrough, soup biscuit.
Actually, I think the US may have also recently introduced this no-smile for the passport policy?
They've recently introduced a "smart paper" chip that can embed video, and now require you to not only to not be smiling, but also be singing The Star-Spangled Banner. Alternatively, your current FaceBook profile photo + status will do fine.
29: it's better than ever before!
The computers hate our happiness.
Alternatively, your current FaceBook profile photo + status will do fine.
"teofilo is very patriotic and not at all a terrorist."
32: so far, asymptotically approaching hopeless!
"heebie is in the mood for freedom fries."
On my driver's license I somehow pulled off looking mildly amused, which looks a lot more natural than past photo IDs where I had obviously fake smiles.
In my passport photo, I'm for some reason looking up and to the right, and look wistful.
35: hey, given a passport-style neutrally lit photo with no particular facial expression, it works pretty darn well.
and now require you to not only to not be smiling, but also be singing The Star-Spangled Banner.
As a green card holder, I'm still debating whether or not to take the citizenship exam, which somehow does seem like a pretty big step. I'm pretty sure I could pass the exam, but am I dedicated enough to the pursuit of happiness to truly qualify for US citizenship? So that's an interesting point to consider, thanks.
You are no longer permitted to grin or smile for your Canadian passport photo
Huh.
"heebie is in the mood for freedom fries."
Like a true patriot, and a mother-to-be of the republic, heebie eats for two.
Huh.
"A considerable number of photos are rejected due to common, avoidable errors." Don't let it happen to you, DS!
Applicant must show a neutral facial expression (no smiling, mouth closed) and look straight at the camera.
40: A quick search indicated that the rule is in place in at least the US, Canada, Germany and the UK.
Terrorists just can't help smiling. It's their achilles heel.
OT: Chocolate-chocolate-coconut cookie recipe posted.
The camera doesn't love me, and the feeling is mutual, so I generally look hostile in photos. I had a good school pic in second grade, but that's about it. Nice thing, though, is that I share my name with some British landscape photographer, so a Google image search turns up pretty pictures, and none of me.
How anyone can, on command, "smile naturally," is beyond me.
Sifu is absolutely right in 20 about the eyes. If you crinkle the corners of your eyes while you smile, it looks much more natural. Photos of me before and after I realized this are the proof in the pudding. If the pudding were a series of photographs.
OT, though related to photos, maybe people who post in the Flickr pool with a different pseud than their Unfogged pseud could make a note in the comments or something? It would be nice to be able to match people up with their photos.
51: Dude. It's Flickr. Not Stalkr. (And yet I share your position.)
46: I tried the link, but I don't have the password. Who do I need to pester in order to gain access to that site?
51, 52: Oh, I'm glad someone else asked. Please, everybody? (She says, being a prime violator herself.)
53: The recipe wiki belongs to A White Bear. For a long time you could get in with a general admin password (wmybsalb) but now I think PB Wiki upgraded and is making everyone register with an individual account. It takes two seconds (e-mail and password only) once you get an invite. Sorry.
I can't quite get over the smiling thing, even though I know it's not cool. My driver's license photo has a lopsided half-smirk.
I thought my band photo was serious-looking, but on review it's merely casual.
I got my driver's license renewed just yesterday after realizing it had been expired since the end of November, and received the shittiest ID photo I've ever had.
I accidently smiled for my ID photo and I will say, never ever ever again.
At what age do boys get trained to stop smiling in their ID photos?
They don't. They all just turn spontaneously grim around 14, otherwise they are not 'cool'.
max
['Why this would be so, I do not know, but it is the truth.']
56: Well I hope you've learned a valuable lesson from that, apostropher.
56: heh. I love being an accidental criminal like that.
I realized the other day that one big difference between my "bad" photos and my "fine" photos is whether or not the corners of my smile are turned up or down.
For me it's whether the smile includes my eyes. Fake smiles make me look uncertain unless I remember to make sure my whole face smiles, if that makes any sense.
I have just enough of an overbite to make closed-mouth serious poses awkward as hell.
I smile in ID photos and look hella dippy.
51: Dude. It's Flickr. Not Stalkr.
iPhoto's new automatic geotagging and face-recognition software + flickr/facebook integration pretty much make it Stalkr now, I think.
I'm alive and back in Brooklyn, so feel free to ask for access to the wiki and I'll add you!
♥Poindexter just drove by Mary Sue's house for the third time tonight.
I recently mentioned how creepy it was to see a couple of high school friends hash out the worst parts of their divorces through FB status updates. I mentioned it to Tonks when I saw her this weekend and she mentioned one I missed. "[Divorcing hs-buddy husband] is finally buying a gun."
Apparently his wife wouldn't let him have a gun in the house with his 6- and 8yo kids, so moving out enabled him to do so, but in the midst of "[DHSBH] cannot take this shit anymore and is moving the fuck out!!!!" it must have been extra-disturbing.
Also, I am frighteningly unphotogenic and nearly fetishize the few photos of me that make me look like something other than a homicidal maniac or a wild-eyed wolverine with bared teeth. On IDs, I go for homicidal maniac, given the choice. I have weird asymmetrical eyes.
I'll never trade in the ID I carry in my wallet. I look dead sexy in this picture. Also: younger!
67: at this point I look basically nothing like my picture on my license. It's kind of awesome!
68: So what name have you appeared under at awfulplasticsurgery.com?
A man who knows how to smile naturally in the most uncomfortable situations.
66: this is not true -- your photos from UnfoggeDCon II last year looked great. I think they are still on Flickr.
71: Those are uncommonly good for AWB party photos. I have several here at home in which I appear to be about to gleefully chomp out someone's throat.
gleefully chomp out someone's throat
It's the glee that really puts the whole thing over the top. You really shouldn't undersell it, AWB.
Every now and then I think back to my 9-year-old self saying, no, mom, I don't want braces because I think my teeth have a lot of personality, and I weep.
I look ticked off in my ID photo, but that's because the person taking it had like three miscues, so by the time he finally took the photo, I was mid eyeroll.
Still, it's a pretty accurate photo. You don't need to smile for people to know it's you. Hell, when you're trying to get into bars or through airport lines, it's not very likely that you're smiling anyway.
One of my cow-orkers says my driver's license photo looks like I just got back from dumping a body somewhere in Jersey.
77: There is, but we're trying to negotiate for teo before we give it back. It's best to keep this all hush-hush.
In case no one else mentioned this, Josh's SFcon T-shirt was really cute and funny and I've described it to several people since.
81: He was, but we're trying to negotiate for the shirt before we give Josh back. It's best to keep this all hush-hush.
80: Thanks! Apparently I'm 2-2 on Bay Area meetup apparel.
84: In addition to zany, I'm sweet. The latter is just hard to catch on film.
And this thread reminded me to finally sign up for the Unfogged flickr pool. If 'smasher would be so kind as to approve me, that would be super keen.
hey, given a passport-style neutrally lit photo with no particular facial expression, it works pretty darn well.
sure, as long as it's straight on, head an shoulders, one person, plain background, no obstructions ... and .... not too large a database
83: I don't remember complimenting you on what you wore to the Explora-Bore-ium, Josh.
89: Why so he is, what a benevolent internet overlord.
This is pretty awesome, it's like my every drunken wish has been granted this evening! I should hope for some productivity before my Saturday class.
91: you should liveblog your reactions to the flickr pool. Like, who knew charleycarp was 8 feet tall? Or boy is that neckbeard a weird look for W-lfs-n. That sort of thing.
Don't tempt me. I'm clicking through it right now, and it's kind of amazing to see all of you who weren't part of the three or four I've met in person yet.
Also, holy crap have you people procreated a lot.
94: I know, right? Lucky bastard.
It works either way?
Wait... No. It doesn't.
So nobody cares about the "hard cyc"? It really was neat. Jerks.
Oh wait, me too! Beflickr me too, Armsmasher!
Do the men of Unfogged smile in their ID photos?
New EU rules means we're not allowed to smile when posing for ID pictures. Also, our head cannot be too big.
I smile if they force me to look head-on instead of allowing me to provide a smoldering three-quarters view which looks good without a smile.
This guy David Leonhardt on the Colber Repor right now is balding in an absolutely unique way.
So nobody cares about the "hard cyc"? It really was neat.
I'm quite willing to believe that, but I have no idea what it is.
One of those walls that's curved at the bottom.
I went to a party in some lofts once where one of them had one of those. We kept running up it, until somebody yelled at us.
104.2: They're very awkward. Until you realize it's there, you keep tripping over it. Once you realize it's there, you just want to do that Singing In The Rain bit where you do a backflip. Except, instead of a backflip, you just paralyze yourself.
If you go back far enough, the lack of smiles isn't formality, it's a side effect of being asked to stay motionless for a really long time.
re: really long time ...
[by way of clarification rather than disagreement]
You have to go back quite a long way to get to the point where exposure times were _really_ long. The emulsion speed of glass plates wasn't actually anything like as slow as popular myth would have it*, a lot of people think it was many minutes which is inaccurate. It was a few seconds, though, so you are right that smiling naturally for those few seconds would be quite hard.
Although if you look at Lewis-Carroll's photographs -- Alice Lidell, etc -- they are sometimes smiling. Ditto some of Julia Margaret Cameron's [or at least the facial expressions look natural rather than forced]. So emulsion speeds were already quick enough [in strong light] by the late 1850s/1860s.
* although the actual speed varies a bit between processes, etc.
I usually look stern and bloated in ID photos.
My wife, on the other hand, who (in general) takes both good and bad photographs (as in looks both good and bad in them) always looks amazing in ID shots. Her ID card and driving license shots look like they were shot by some portrait photographer.
No smiling allowed in the UK. But my US passport photo, taken when I was about 19, I guess, is also smileless. We don't need training. I stopped smiling naturally in photos at about 12.
I smile in photos. While there will always be exceptions, in general I consider deliberately not smiling in photos to be an affectation, as if the subject is saying, "look at how stoic and tough I am".
OT, can someone explain something to me? This NYT article says Israel is stopping journalists from entering Gaza. Why don't journalists just enter Gaza via the Egyptian border?
Because the Egyptians follow Israel's lead, and/or Israel has a habit of targeting unlicensed journalists...
Israel has a habit of targeting unlicensed journalists
To be fair, that seems to be standard operating procedure these days ...
Btw, I noticed the BBC reporter prominently crediting their local stringer, i.e. repeatedly mentioning him by name, in his reports from Gaza.
We are supposed to have a 'neutral expression and mouth closed'. Judging by the samples one is allowed to smirk, but not smile. I enjoy smirking anyway, so that is no hardship.
#111: Israel has a habit of targeting unlicensed journalists...
True. While the IDF claims to forbid its soldiers from targeting any journalists, licensed, or unlicensed, this is of course a lie.
In fact, Israel has long maintained a central list, updated daily, with the names and passport photos of those journalists licensed to report on its military operations. Each Israeli soldier is issued a copy of this list before heading into battle.
In the middle of active fighting against Hamas or Hezbollah, if an Israeli soldier spots someone on the field of battle who looks like a journalist, his standing orders require him to check whether the journalist in question appears on the list, and if not, to open fire.
Israel cunningly adopted this secret policy because it knows that nothing gets you good media coverage like shooting at reporters. Claims that any such incidents are the unfortunate yet unavoidable consequence of civilians wandering around inside an active war zone are not to be believed.
Glad to see we share the same opinion of each other.
118 made me laugh, despite myself.
no, mom, I don't want braces because I think my teeth have a lot of personality, and I weep.
Oh man, AWB my teeth were never so bad that a dentist said that I had to have them, and my parents weren't about to spend the money if they didn't have to. The dentists in college didn't push them. My sister saw a private dentist when she was in college in Southern California who told her to go to the orthodontist.
I lust after invisalign braces, but I've heard that they only work for minor stuff. iBraces look like the next best thing; they sit on the back of the teeth so you can't tell from the front. I don't know whether they cost a lot more than the traditional ones. I'm not sure when I'll be able to afford it.
Why don't journalists just enter Gaza via the Egyptian border?
Presumably walking past the smiling border and immigration desk, hindered only by the traffic jam of trucks carrying food and medical supplies? Have a guess, why do you think they don't enter Gaza via the Egyptian border?
hash out the worst parts of their divorces through FB status updates
After friending somebody I knew from high school but hadn't talked to since, I watched the following status updates over the span of a week and a half.
XXXX changed their relationship status to in a relationship.
XXXX changed their relationship status to engaged.
XXXX changed their relationship status to it's complicated.
XXXX changed their relationship status to single.
XXXX is relieved.
Have you looked into Clear-Rite, BG?
Although if you look at Lewis-Carroll's photographs -- Alice Lidell....
Perv.
GB should fuck off.
As I understand, Israel occasionally tagets licensed journalists too. GB's Dilemma is thus evaded. But unlicensed journalists are even more likely to be targeted.
123 looks promising, apo. Seriously the reason that I lust after invisalign is that you can take them out to eat, so you don't have to give up apples for years. It's also much easier to floss without having braces on. I don't care so much if people can tell.
"Captain, a New York Times stringer was caught in crossfire and killed."
"Are you sure he's dead?
*BANG*
"Yes".
re: 124
Afaik, there are no clearly pervy photos of that type in existence.* I might be wrong, though.** All the Dodgon/Carroll photos I've seen have been fine.
* although the famous photo of Liddell that everyone knows does look a tad suspect to cynical modern eyes.
** I am wrong, wiki tells me that half a dozen or so nude photos have turned up [not of Liddell, photos by Dodgson]. That said, that sort of photography wasn't uncommon then. Julia Margaret Cameron's portfolio is full of it.
A perv civilization.
We have nude photos of most of my brothers and sisters as toddlers. My brother has pictures of his daughters dressed only in mud. People have actually been prosecuted for this kind of thing.
Those are uncommonly good for AWB party photos.
I take complete credit for the fabulous AWB photos.
re: 139
People have actually been prosecuted for this kind of thing.
Oh yes. The UK is a bastion of paranoia about that sort of thing.
Every so often there's a big media kerfuffle, too, about the work of people like Sally Mann and Nan Goldin.
131: And Blind Faith. (But I think it was in the US where they went to the alternative cover.)
113: I like the understatement of "Full face not visible".
Back on the OT: Like many kids, I started having a really fake photo smile when I was ~6; by the time I was in HS, I was tired of always having this stupid grin in my pictures, so when I had to have ID pics taken for summer college, I just looked straight at the camera. I wasn't trying to look tough but, as one friend said, "If I got that picture in the mail with a demand for money, I'd send the money." So I stuck with that for awhile. It was particularly noticeable with me because I'm a very animated person who is generally laughing/joking/smiling.
I just checked - I smiled on my 1996 driver's license, so at most my serious face phase lasted 8 years.
A lot of rock kids thought the Blind Faith cover was out of order at the time. It wasn't just the usual suspects. Peoples' snaps of their toddlers on the beach are a completely different question.
Iris has this ridiculous pursed-lip smile that she really seems to think is appropriate for pics - no idea why. It's made getting pics of both kids nigh-impossible: Kai only takes 1 good picture in 5 (he's otherwise whipping his head around or spitting up), and that pic inevitably shows Iris lip-pursing. At Thanksgiving I took literally 2 or 3 dozen shots of my dad with them both, and not a single one came out well.
135: John, he's very cute. Adorable!
whipping his head around or spitting up
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
138: He doesn't have much capacity yet.
He's the only kid for nine adults in the family, so he's grown to expect adoration.
Oh, and if I'd gotten here earlier, I would have asked what a hard cyc was, and then been impressed.
Just for the record.
re: 136
Yeah. There are some 'art' photographers whose stuff I think crosses the line.* If there's not an attempt to titillate in a very unsavoury way, there's definitely an attempt to court cheap controversy.
For example, the big Taschen 20th century photography book contains a couple of things that I, personally, found pretty unsavoury. [It's a cracking book, though, loads of really great photographs and a pretty good selection of stuff]
* just not some of the ones who tend to attract media attention.
My passport photo (now lapsed nearly as long as it was good) shows me with an expression of terror and mirth, like I am about to be stampeded by ducks or die in some similarly farcical way.
My drivers licenses used to always be taken just as I was abandoning that particular look. I guess it's still true: we don't have that color work shirt here anymore.
When I got my passport photo in... '94? Yes. Anyway, I was advised against smiling because the places I would be going on that trip were, I was told, distrustful of people who grinned in photos (I've always assumed this was just a weird form of subtle exceptionalism - those fur'ners don't even like folks who smile! - but whatever). Prior to that I'd had a variety of uncomfortable portrait smiles I tried and saw fail. The act of sitting there without having to smile was so liberating that I've not even bothered in a single official photo since. When Rah and I have our pictures taken together, or I get snapped at a party or something, I'm usually grinning like an idiot but when someone says, "Hey, sit down so I can take your picture," especially if it happens in a government office someplace, I wear serene disregard like a favorite old bathrobe.
All of which is to say, to heebie, that I learned to stop smiling for IDs when I was 20.
On the topic of Facebook, as an aside, I've now been friended both by the much-loved mother of a close friend from high school and by a cousin and thus the age of the internet being awesome is well and truly over. I can never cuss in my Facebook status again.
I just checked my Driver's License picture. I look like a child molester. Damn it.
149: The first two people I showed my ridiculous DL picture to made the following comments:
1) "Did you even look at your hair before you went to the DMV?"
2) "Dude, this looks like a DUI mug shot."
"People have actually been prosecuted for this kind of thing."
"Oh yes. The UK is a bastion of paranoia about that sort of thing."
Most famously, a British newsreader was arrested when she had photos of her daughter in the bath developed. I think the charges were dropped, though.
They say that Australians thought Jimmy Carter was a fag because he smiled so much.
/authentic homophobic vocabulary
How anyone can, on command, "smile naturally," is beyond me.
Yes. And anyway, how likely are you to be grinning when you have to prove your identity?
||
Get rid of Reid. I don't see how he could have handled the Burris appointment worse. It's a rather small issue that was allowed to blow up.
It's not as though Reid has counterbalancing strong points.
|>
Yes. And anyway, how likely are you to be grinning when you have to prove your identity?
I mentally prepare myself for ID pics by thinking, "What seems to be the problem, Officer?"
The last time I got my driver's license renewed, the woman took the picture, looked at the digital image on her screen, then shook her head, "Oh no. We need to do this again." She took another, looked at her screen again, looked at me with pity, "Well... We can keep trying if you want."
122: technically only the last of those is actually a status update.
Thanks for clearing that up, CN.
154: First I was reading that although the Senate doesn't have the constitutional power to refuse to seat Burris, they have fairly broad power to expel him once seated. Now somehow everyone in Washington is behaving like if he's seated, he's made it. What gives?
154: Reid needs to go. He's barely even a Democrat.
156: passport photos should always look horrible, because they will only ever be compared to the original (ie: the front of your head) when you have just got off a plane and are looking and feeling horrible. Mine looks like the sort of post-mortem shot they show to recalcitrant witnesses in order to shock them into speaking out.
I mentally prepare myself for ID pics by thinking, "What seems to be the problem, Officer?"
I imagine agonizing over the best response to "Do you know how fast you were going?", resulting in a vaguely panicked look.
For passport photos, substitute a CBP officer asking "Are you bringing in any alcohol or tobacco?"
For passport photos, substitute a CBP officer asking "Are you bringing in any alcohol or tobacco?"
In that case the default passport photo expression should read as, "Well, duh!"
In that case the default passport photo expression should read as, "Well, duh!" "Fuck, how big a cut does this guy expect?"
"Reasonable and proper, Officer! Like everything I do!"
By the way, Knecht, I realized after our discussion that the (seriously) correct answer to "Do you know how fast you were going?" or "Do you know why I stopped you?" is to ignore the question and say, "Here are my license and registration, officer."
I realized after our discussion that the (seriously) correct answer to "Do you know how fast you were going?" or "Do you know why I stopped you?" is to ignore the question and say, "Here are my license and registration, officer." "Unless you've got probable cause, you'd better let me go, Pig."
Pictures of suspected rapists - at least in UK - always seem show the suspect wearing a woolly hat and what used to be called a donkey jacket.
Is there a rapists outfitters somewhere?
It must be the same place that IRA and UDF terrorists got their gear.
