How do you think I get to sleep every night?
Start out with a list of the things I would really need, then a plan of where to go and what to do. But I'm certainly not sharing them with you lot! Too crowded.
I already live with my mom (for now), so if anything goes drastically wrong with my plans for the near future I could always come back for a while and start over with something else. I have a lot of flexibility at this point in my life, so I'm not overly concerned about what to do if that happens. I'd have several options to look at.
Longer-term, there's always the one trading post my family still owns. I've been idly thinking about possible ways to fix it up, and a big unexpected change in my life might be the perfect time to try something like that out.
I keep a bag in my closet packed with a few sets of clothes, a pair of shoes, toothbrush etc., some cash. More out of superstition than anything else. I think I'm the sort of person who would dig a survival shelter if I lived in Montana or something.
I didn't have a specific set of plans. Until now. What's your grandparents' address?
I used to have a specific set of plans, but now I don't need 'em.
I have no idea. I'd say I'd move back to the Bay Area, but all my personal, can rely on for a while, connections are in southern California now. And I really don't like spending a lot of time there. (No offense to southern Californians; I understand the appeal of living there, but it's not an appeal to me.)
Having kids changes your set of options dramatically, of course. I'm supposed to head to the family ranch of my co-blogger Froz when the revolution comes.
That's awesome. TV shows should switch from their current policy of using 555-xxxx numbers for phone numbers to using famous mathematical constants.
4: There are only so many suburban homes near Metra stops. If we map them all out, distribute them among commenters, and start knocking on doors, surely we can figure it out.
Is 3 for real or is Matt F just funnin'? I've led the guy to a decent burrito, so I demand to know.
I knew a guy who had an emergency kit in his trunk at all times, containing a canned food, marine batteries, radios bottled water, fatigues, hunting rifle, shotgun, extra shells and ammo, and I suspect at least one claymore mine.
Kind of a weird dude.
I've led the guy to a decent burrito
When were you guys in CA?
What does "everything went haywire" mean? Like, you suddenly find yourself with no money, and connections that would get you a job fall through? Or you just decide you need to be somewhere else, but nothing financially catastrophic has happened?
What does "everything went haywire" mean?
A fair question. In the context of the conversation, I took her to mean losing job and all financial resources rather abruptly in an otherwise (relatively) stable economy. We weren't talking about the coming revolution, but I'm glad apo's gonna have wine for me when I make it out West to mooch.
That said, she might have also meant something else, like all your nearby friends/family dies in a tragic accident or something. I just though it an interesting thinkpiece.
When were you guys in CA?
I said "decent", man. Cut me some slack.
I have a plan of sorts. I think it's something about being in graduate school; I wonder what I would do when all my skills are declared useless and I have to start over from scratch.
I also used to have a much less realistic fantasy about moving to some central American country and living on the beach in a shack and fishing. That was better when I had a potential partner in mind that would have been perfect for said adventure.
I didn't really just say "thinkpiece" did I? I did. Oh. I see. Crap.
I've got a cache of rich friends myself. Thank you, private high school! All of my grand plans involve CA-MA drug arbitrage.
I wonder what I would do when all my skills are declared useless and I have to start over from scratch.
See, I don't have to wonder about this. And it hasn't worked out so great so far. What I really should have done is take advantage of the grad school "schedule" to get experience as a volunteer or intern or something once I knew I wasn't interested in staying in academia. Now that I know what kinds of things I'd want to do in terms of volunteering, it all conflicts with my work schedule. I think I'm repeating myself from an earlier thread.
Anyway, I had a co-worker years ago whose universal back up plan seemed to be to take his savings and move to a country with a low cost of living and then figure out his next step.
I figured I could maybe ride the rails for a while, get one of those hobo consultant gigs, but it's probably a pretty competitive scene. There's a place I could stay in Paris, but I'd have to fly there, and I can't stand all those goddamn recliners. I dunno, I'll figure something out.
Stow away in one of those containers: Rail => Ship => Rail => Paris.
12: I've got most of that in the trunk of my car. No guns, I don't want to have to explain possession or a stolen one to the cops. If there's a 'quake I'll grab one on the way out.
The car is usually parked on the street so it won't be trapped under the apartment. We can get water from the pool or wherever and I have one of those ceramic camping water filters in the kit. I probably should toss in some more clothes and blankets.
Anyway, lots of people have "Go bags", possibly even some urban liberals in NYC since 9/11.
If everything goes completely to hell? We'll probably head to Alabama to live with my daughter. The food chain is much shorter down there.
23: just double check it's the right container.
No guns
The key difference. His was mostly guns.
one of those hobo consultant gigs
I sense I'm being mocked, and I approve.
No guns
I intend to rely on my smoldering good looks and impeccable grammar to get me out of any potential unpleasantness on the way to the ranch.
24: My parents-in-law are convinced that The End Is Near with all this financial stuff. They've offshored much of their savings (Europe, Australia) and have converted their front room into a cold room for food storage.
They've also purchased plywood for the windows, which suggests to me they think that The End will involve zombies.
The key difference. His was mostly guns.
Never a good sign.
I'm glad apo's gonna have wine for me when I make it out West to mooch.
This seems unlikely.
In the context of the conversation, I took her to mean losing job and all financial resources rather abruptly in an otherwise (relatively) stable economy
Hmm. It's an interesting question. I could probably impose on my parents briefly (promising to pay them rent when able) while job-hunting, but surely there's something more interesting I could do. I can't think of any friends I could tolerate staying with for more than a week, but then I'm misanthropic that way and generally weird about sharing space with other people.
If I were going to change careers, most of the things that come to mind are other academic options, and yet there's no way in hell I would go back to school. (For that matter, grad programs tend not to want people who already have PhDs in something else, don't they?)
Actually I think if I had to start over at this point, I would try to find something to do that's less useless and more in line with my political/environmental opinions. Which I generally feel guilty about anyway.
They've offshored much of their savings
It occurs to me that I am arguably in the midst of executing my plan right now.
||
Oh dear god, I am so sick of grading. All I have left are three papers, likely C's or lower (the late ones oh so rarely turn out to be decent) and I just want it to ennnnnnnnd. I've graded nearly 20 others today, which isn't that many in the scheme of things but sorely tries my patience.
|>
35: well, look, I'm sick of doing homework. Maybe we can make a deal.
Now I feel sort of uncomfortable that I can't come up with a fairly specific plan like yours after a little thought, because I realize I have essentially no practical experience in what it's like to try to get a job outside of my very specialized niche. Somehow I just sort of followed the path of least resistance to doing precisely the sort of thing I decided I wanted to do when I was, I don't know, 16?, and never stopped to give it much thought.
Somehow I just sort of followed the path of least resistance to doing precisely the sort of thing I decided I wanted to do when I was, I don't know, 16?, and never stopped to give it much thought.
This sounds like me too, though my career path wasn't defined so much beyond go to college -> grad school (in some field) -> get a job. And I'm only on stage two, so we'll see. I've some experience working in the service industry but I'd probably go crazy if I went back to that.
And I'm only on stage two, so we'll see.
Yeah, I'm on stage, uh, 2.5? In a temporary postdoc job which is really rather nice but will eventually end, at which point I'll have to try for a faculty job or some other postdoc position. So still at least two opportunities to get derailed from this course. And now I'm troubled by how little thought I've given to exit strategies, voluntary or not.
My backup plan is to get a fellowship to read unfogged comments.
Huh, this is a pretty interesting question. If the revolution came, I'd be pretty near fucked. I don't know anyone in rural areas, there's nothing remotely close to a "compound" until I go back a couple generations and out a couple branches to the Texas cattle ranchers on one side of my mom's family (they were the first generation out of Brooklyn, and they went where?!). It would totally be a wits-and-wiles situation.
If I just ended up having to leave town, or lost everything, but society still held together and I wasn't being tried for major crimes against humanity, I'd be just fine. It'd actually be kind of cool to get shaken out of my cozy nook here, but I'd probably end up in NYC, DC, or London trying to find jobs. Lots of friends whose couches I could crash on, plenty of potential jobs in my line of work, and loads of service jobs if any of that falls through. I don't have any specific backup careers I could hop into, but there are enough jobs in modern capitalism that fit under the nebulous "analyst" title that I could probably get by.
I really should develop a plan B that involves more tropics, though.
I think Apo nailed it when he said that kids change everything. I don't even have a girlfriend at the moment, and my friends are still pretty much in a state of move-about-the-country flux, but this is a level of freedom that can't last for too long. If asked this question in 10 years, I'm probably have an answer much closer to "Fuck if I know."
"I'm probably"? Yeah, I'm real employable. I'll just land on my feet, no worries.
Stanley's backup plan is to make other people super worried about their backup plans. Essear, you're going to make that man a mint.
Tweetface: you're ruining my plan. Shhhhhhhhh!
This thread is actually making me more confident in my backup plan(s).
Tweetface? Really?
Currently about 2/3 through reading The Road which is oddly appropriate for this thread.
47: "At least I'm not as fucked as those poor sad bastards"?
I need a backup for my backup for my backup. It's backups all the way down.
It occurs to me that I am arguably in the midst of executing my plan right now.?
"Ok, I'm a DJ and thus have unlimited pussy. How can I arrange my life such that I may restrict myself to a unique orifice? If I should succeed, I will then flee the orifice for 3000 miles, if need be. Then I will do homework, and bitch."
Brilliant!
My first Plan B is to move to a cottage in Cape Breton, which admittedly isn't very realistic.
My second Plan B is to move to Chicago, which I just visited last weekend because one of my sisters just moved there from Canada, and they're so friendly there! and the sandwiches are so cheap, and people on the trains will actually talk to you, non-suspiciously, if you happen to catch their eye.
Tweetface? Really?
It's a term of endearment!
Whoever's compiling the list of band names can add 'Tweetface Thinkpiece'. Stanley gets to be the drummer.
56: Deal. Who is compiling that list, by the by? Someone should, and my finger is firmly placed upon my nose.
Yo, Jetpack, what good is one Claymore mine? I mean, with, like, six, you can establish a perimeter. But just one? Kind of useless.
As for a backup plan, if you're Canadian you don't need one.
This happened. I remarried. It worked out well.
Speaking of needing backup plans because of the coming revolution, did people see that Obama went to Ford's Theater tonight? Dude's trying to give me nightmares.
I think the line forms behind Megan, ari.
Ok, new plan b: marry wrongshore's new wife.
61: Besides your nightmares, how did he enjoy the play, ari?
Is this the "I'm wasting my life in grad school" thread? Because I am. I am.
As for what I'd do come Armageddon, well, it'd probably be a lot like grad school. Eat a lot of pasta, not have a job, sleep late, move apartments all the time, crash at friends' places, write up equations in LaTeX.
The word sailor looks a bit like a boat.
64: Now that's a plan I can recommend. From personal experience.
I've basically decided to go elsewhere, but I'm still sort of hoping to hear from the Canadian school I've applied to before I'm really completely committed to going elsewhere. (Changing my mind right now is probably still possible, but complicated.)
perimemini: you all are surrounded.
Can a locale's history really dissuade a presidential visit? Dallas misses presidents (except when it doesn't).
70: You asked a question about a Canadian school the other night. Is that the school from which you're waiting to hear? Because if so, that's the most beautiful campus of any university in North America. I used to dream of teaching there, even though being an Americanist at a Canadian university is like, um, [insert apt point of comparison here].
Actually, come to think of it I'm already on plan D if not E.
73: Yes, that's the one. It's a looooooooooooong degree program (largely because the MLS and the archives are done jointly but separately and I don't want just one or the other). Nice place to spend time, though.
75: Is it a well-respected program? Do they have funding? If the answers to those two questions are yes, you should go there. Unless the weather will bum you out. In which case, you shouldn't. I suppose it also matters what your other option is.
75: You were totally clamoring for my ill-informed advice, right? Honestly, I think I piped up because the presence of you and Teo in this one thread is causing me to grapple with all kinds of what-ifs.
I've got my shit correct; there are men on multiple continents convinced I'm Amy Sullivan come again. Teaching english is the way to go: hell, you might turn out to be good at it. Even if you aren't, you'd be better than a lot of these fucks.
I know it's uncouth to request post-title comments, but no one? Really? Nothing? Share we not musical tastes?
It was a complicated allusion to Tindersticks' "People Keep Comin' Around", right?
Share we not, it seems. Unless by "we" you meant you and this Stanley, who seems familiar with the reference.
82: I thought I'd used that title before. Damn.
Spackerman uses the same one six times daily. You're doing fine.
What is this "plan" of which you speak?
85: It's a Built to Spill reference. A good band. Look up and buy their tunes.
Stanley has covered himself in caustic resin.
I'll admit to keeping emergency stuff in the car and the house. (Reading the Road didnt help.)
I have extra water, an emergency radio, cash, food, and my family has a basic idea of where to try to meet up. My problem is that the kids are with me half the time and with their mom half the time, so there is a distinct possibility that I have to make my way to them first.
Speaking of which, anyone see that ted.com video about surviving a nuclear explosion?
With regard to work disasters, the kids complicate the situation dramatically as my first responsibilities are to them. If it were just me, neither my needs nor my pride would prevent me from bumming a sofa or some floor space from a friend.
aw, man, I was just a little too late to give Stanley the song-reckanizing tribute he'd hoped for.
I maintain a wide variety of plans for a various disasters. I tend to think more about social collapse scenarios, because in my head at least, they are fun and adventurous. For some reason, I often imagine people migrating to where we are, rather than holing up with someone else. I suppose it is more gratifying to imagine yourself the provider.
The more realistic scenarios come up sometimes too. If I lost my job, we'd move to back to Canton where the cost of living is low and rely on Molly's income. Maybe raise chickens.
I have a flashlight, but no batteries. I'm doomed.
but mcmc, you have a battery operated bike so you are set when gas disappears!
92: That's true. I can just keep moving, and recharge on the downhills.
CA plans for disasters. He likes to keep a semi-large wad of cash about "in case they close the banks for a week." I tease him about it, but he really is the ant to my grasshopper. In fact, one of his Christmas presents from me was a solar and hand-crank powered am/fm radio/flashlight/cell phone charger. I thought this was hilarious ("so you're ready for the endtimes!"), but he was very pleased with it.
My social-collapse disaster plan involves finding my friend Lee, who can farm and build things and wire things and is the most all around handy person I have ever met.
My only Plan B involves groveling to some awful, gigantic, corporate architecture firm for work if my practice utterly fails. No go bags, no rural connections, and sure as hell no extra cash (well, there is a $2 bill that I hold onto...).
I do have good practical skills, and, if I ever have a couple good years put together, I expect to have some rural property of my own to flee to. But for now....
Oh wait, there's this one: move to Austria to live with AB's cousins and work with/for the one who is an architect. Obviously not a societal collapse scenario.
Invest in grocery chains, the post-apocalyptic Exxons. Canned food + lots of shopping carts = total win (if their management has had the foresight to stock up on ammo and guns). "This time around it's the checkout attendants turn to be on top."
Not so much a plan, but I have my eye on a refuge. I may be too far from any family if things get really bad, so I'm hoping I can crash in my friends' spare bedroom. Although they are currently separated, and he's crashing on my sofa at the moment. So I've been thinking and worrying about this very thing!
The next option is a monastery. I'm more Buddhist than Catholic, but I have more skills to offer the latter. I'm probably too old for Shao Lin. Still shopping for one of those.
I have no plan for realistic disasters like losing my job, other than "Get another job." The kids/family/mortgage thing means that any response would have to be totally disaster-specific, so I'm planning to play that by ear.
For unrealistic disasters like the total collapse of civilization, we go stay with a friend of Buck's from grade school who's a cross between Megan with guns and Cro-Magnon man (in a charming and personable way. Of course, I went to a party at his house once, and every single person there had a major childhood scar, still visible, that was all this guy's fault. Buck's is across his scalp, so it wouldn't show if he had hair.) Big garden, fruit trees, beehives, dead animal heads nailed to his walls, lots of various bows and arrows and guns and such. We've arranged to show up on his doorstop and do stoop labor while he reinvents feudalism.
I have no plan for realistic disasters like losing my job, other than "Get another job."
Ditto.
End of civilization stuff, I don't think I've ever seriously thought about it. My wife's family have a fairly big house and a garden that can grow enough food to support a family. There's always central Scotland -- which isn't that densely populated, is fertile, and I know it. But I can't really say I've ever really thought about it. People with graduate degrees and decent IT skills aren't likely to be in huge demand come the 'end times'.
i think that there is a difference between planning for an event like the one in The Road and some planning and kid educating about what to do in the event of a large explosion near you. (See http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/irwin_redlener_warns_of_nuclear_terrorism.html)
The large explosion possibility seems possible enough that I would want to have done some minimal preparation for it. Not constant, obsessive preparation, but enough planning so that my family has some knowledge of what to do and some hope for surviving for a couple of weeks.
Everything is gonna be alright, Stanley.
94: I also got one of those hand-cranked radio things for Christmas. Not worried about the end times, but old trees, power lines on poles and minimal maintance from the power company. We lose power quite frequently.
Are these taxidermed animal heads, or decaying organic natural animal heads with a big spike driven through the eye socket and out the back?
Well, yes. My actual plan for the end of civilization is Step 1: Starve; Step 2: Die. I don't have high expectations for my ability to survive in the wild.
103: Some taxidermy, some skulls, nothing currently rotting.
I have the option of dying of old age any time I want, which strikes me as the best Armageddon option.
Turn tricks and move into an SRO.
The next option is a monastery. I'm more Buddhist than Catholic, but I have more skills to offer the latter. I'm probably too old for Shao Lin.
If you can make brandy, jelly, or fruitcake, there's a Catholic monastery somewhere that's right for you.
105: Does he have a blank spot on the wall where he plans to mount the head "of the greatest prey of them all!"
102: Hee! Well, yes. That is the real story -- CA's power goes out many times a year. But I like to think that we can still charge his RAZR after the collapse of the capitalist system.
Trappists make good carmels, if that's in your skill set.
109: Oh, I don't think he's all that interested in killing anything he can't eat. Admittedly, the range of things he can eat is broad.
107 is useful because it works for either a personal economic downturn or a near total social collapse.
110: Before relying on the hand-crank thing to charge you phone, check the instructions (mine says 15 minutes of cranking for one minute of talk time) and the plug (mine doesn't even fit). Maybe I got a crappy one.
Admittedly, the range of things he can eat is broad.
The situation in 104 step 1 would show you your own constraints this way.
The first thing we'd do is check to make sure it wasn't me forgetting to pay the electricity/water bill again.
115: hand cranks are pretty limited. Someone should market an exercise bike/personal generator.
I'm (mostly) kidding about the turn tricks part, but I do feel some comfort in knowing the addresses of 4 or 5 SROs in the city that will take you, pay weekly, no questions asked. I advise people not to go to the one where there are no ceilings, only chicken wire. That one's men-only, anyway.
My real plan involves selling my car and anything else I own that's worth anything (guitar, pretty nice bed), and taking some menial cleaning or dishwashing job. Staying with one's parents is nice, but when it costs you over a grand to get to one's parents, not such a great plan.
114: Right, a near total social collapse would probably loosen zoning regulations, making SROs more common. It'd be libertarian utopia! I can't see attempting to turn tricks with a straight face, though. Actually, I can't see prospective customers keeping a straight face. Possibly I could work out some combination of prostitution and standup comedy.
115: Mine came with a little mail-card where you mark your cell-phone model and send off for the correct tip. I got him this one.
otoh m. leblanc, the cost of travel drops precipitously once you reach the point where a) you can carry pretty much everything you own and b) you don't have to be there quickly.
re: 100
I grew up within a couple of miles of a major chemical plant [2 actually]. A couple of times it came close to blowing up and we had the police warnings.* The general advice seemed to be "shut the windows".
* I mean, it blew up fairly regularly,** but it came close to blowing up one of the bits that you don't want to have blow up, a couple of times.
** 50 tonne hydro-cracking towers shooting 500m in the air, etc.
122: Well, I can't really swim across the Atlantic, and boats are still pretty pricy, so I think it's still going to cost me a pretty penny to get to Cairo.
it blew up fairly regularly
I thought Scots were supposed to be good at industrialism and such. Did anyone consider investigating ways to run a chemical plant that might incorporate less in the way of explosions?
111: Caramel is regrettably not in my skill set. And with that, I was enlightnened. Thank you, guru.
121: Thanks. I may have missed something in the box or thought it was just a warrantee card. I'll look again.
126: I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of heating sugar and water to a certain temperature. Bear in mind that Trappists take vows of silence. You can talk if it is necessary (i.e. about how to make carmel, at mass), but not about trivial. Which isn't part of my skill set.
124: Oh, come on. Walk to Alaska, get a small boat across the Bering Straight, walk the length of Asia diagonally, and Bob's your uncle. Show some initiative.
Yes, enlightnened. I've truly lost my innonence.
124: Maybe you could work passage, it might just be a bit 'round about journey. At least, I know people who've done this (typically private, not commercial) but I suspect their particular methods would fall apart with a significant collapse, so who knows.
re: 125
Refineries and cracking plants seem to blow up quite a lot. The plant is enormous, so there's a lot to go wrong.
http://www.take-a-view.co.uk/images/2007winners/AY_0001265.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/5/5476199_851f906954.jpg?v=0
[from the opposite bank of the river]
The one time that things genuinely got hairy, there was a tank fire within 100m or so of the cyanide plant.* One guy died, I think. I knew the firemen who went in, which must have been a scary scary job.
* I worked for a contractor at the plant at the time.
128: Sure it sounds easy. Then you learn that they do it the old-fashioned pre-thermometer way.
That's some dark Satanic mills you've got going there. Very impressive.
134: Come the social collapse, OSHA gets in the neck right quickly.
In terms of things going haywire personally, like losing my job and being unable to find another one due to some screw-up, I'd move back in with my parents in Vermont. They always told me that I was welcome to move back in so I assume the offer still stands, and I still have more personal connections in that area than here, so I'd have at least decent chances of finding a paying job.
In terms of things going haywire economically, like losing my job during another Great Depression, I might move back in with my parents. Again, I assume I'd be welcome, and they have a house out in the sticks. They're nowhere near self-sufficient, but food from the garden two months of the year is better than none. They have a wood stove, plenty of candles, and I think they have a hand-cranked flashlight/radio too. This option will probably be available all my life - they'll probably never sell the house - but five to 10 years from now they'll be old enough that in an economic collapse they'd need help more than I would.
In terms of things going haywire societally, like biological warfare or the economy degenerating to the point of a Mad Max scenario, fuck if I know. I don't have a car, I don't own a car or a gun and my most useful skill is proofreading. On the bright side, I live in the DC area, so I'm either at the epicenter of the initial collapse and it's over quickly for me, or I'm in one of the places best prepared for it.
133: Memo to self: Keep old-style non-electric thermometers well stocked.
re: 134
Yeah, the plant is about 3 miles end to end. Maybe a bit longer.
http://www.emersonprocess.com/home/news/resources/images/bp-grangemouth1_hires.jpg
At night the whole thing looks like it's on fire.
or the economy degenerating to the point of a Mad Max scenario.
In this case, you can always take up punk hair styling or leather tooling.
140: I was actually picturing leather and bandoliers filled with red pens and tape flags. Cyrus, Rogue Copyeditor.
SRO = "Seriously Rat-infested Old" hotel
local food!
Aside to Cyrus, stands for single room occupancy.
My strategy for dealing with the total economic collapse so far has been to keep my job and hope the stimulus package money trickles down to Ohio community colleges.
Speaking of trickle down, it might be good to start to practice the whole 'squat' thing for when the sewers stop working.
144 sounds like the best option, followed by 106.
It's never too late to die of old age.
Tell that to an 19 year old passing the tenth floor of the Empire State Building on the way down.
148: falling in a blind panic ages one, don't you think?
I live far enough from DC and Baltimore to be out of the blast radius, but, depending on the wind, I could be screwed by the radioactive fallout. I think my best bet is to head for West Virginia.
Belated props, Stanley, for the post title. I've had the song in my head all morning, a good thing.
My actual plan for the end of civilization is Step 1: [Rob a liquor store;] Step 1[A]: Starve; Step 2: Die.
In the event of a less, uh, catastrophic, catastrophe, such as losing my job, I'd probably just try to hang on as best I could. Maybe I'd try to get a job with a friend of mine who runs a gardening/landscaping business. Or maybe I'll be that homeless-looking guy I see every morning, the one who sits on a bench with his backpacks and reads blogs on his laptop. (Really. I don't know what that cat's story is.)
Or maybe I'll be that homeless-looking guy I see every morning, the one who sits on a bench with his backpacks and reads blogs on his laptop. (Really. I don't know what that cat's story is.)
He's probably in this thread.
Layoff: Devote all waking hours to learning everything there is to know about Asterisk, as literally everything interesting that's likely to happen in this industry seems to use it.
Movie plot threat: Improvise, adapt and overcome, because in those scenarios none of your prior planning is likely to remain valid anyway. Although I grew up in the countryside, there's no way I'm going back to my home town - I pissed way too many people off.
That's exactly why you'll end up going back there in the movie version, Alex. So dramatic! So many amends to be made!
I was thinking. Just when you think you've successfully restarted civilization, cue the grade-school nemesis.
I was imagining the montage of Alex working together with people he had previously been at odds with (all of whom he'd had prickly encounters with near the beginning of the film, soon after his arrival back home). They're plowing a field, they're getting that old abandoned grist mill in working order again.
They're plowing a field, they're getting that old abandoned grist mill in working order again.
Alex earns new respect when he cobbles together a hand-cranked local telephone system (if I understood the "Asterisk" reference correctly).
154: Asterisk is pretty sweet. Which industry is it taking over?
They start brewing up an herbal potion that gives them the superhuman strength necessary to withstand the Romanslooters (if I understood the "Asterisk" reference correctly.)
When I was a little kid, I and all the other littles took great solace in living near the Earle Naval Weapons Base. We hoped that, when the bombs fell, we'd be gone instantly.
I did not catch the title reference, but now that it has been pointed out, I can't get that song out of my head.
I had a colleague whose wife was intent on preparing for the apocalypse (she was Mormon, is that a common theme in Mormonism or just coincidental?). During the time I knew them, they had 4 different homes in 3 different cities and he spent nearly all of his free time making complicated modifications to each. When I first marveled at this, he pointed out that I probably did not feel the need to provide dry pest-free storage for a year's worth of wheat. Another time he drily noted that, "It is not a hobby I myself would have chosen."
It is a LDS thing to have a year's worth of supplies. I believe that the Church has significant disaster supplies.
Normal LDS people just get a month or two's worth of emergency supplies and feel vaguely guilty about it.
So it's the Mormon Church that has teamed up with Japan to stockpile grain and drive up food prices.
My parents have many cans of wheat in their basement. I don't know what they would do with this wheat in the event of an unspecified disaster and/or the Second Coming. I suspect they don't even have a hand-cranked wheat grinder. But they have wheat.
My plan involves doing whatever I can not to have to move back in with my parents.
Is this an apocalypse thing or the shared memory of being exiled out west and having to survive on their own?
If it is an apocalypse thing, why don't they count on being raptured or God providing manna like ordinary Christians?
164: Just out of curiousity, where to you buy grain in quantities large enough to feed a family for an extended period but small enough that it isn't worth getting your own grain bin? Do they sell 50 pound bags or something?
If you have all the resources of a church, wouldn't it make more sense to run grain farming operations that don't rely on many outside inputs than to simply stockpile grain?
I suppose they might do that as well.
Hey, I have a hand-cranked wheat grinder! I should even use it some day.
Wouldn't flour be more convenient than wheat?
There's a big granary in downtown Salt Lake City that holds some of the church's grain stores.
Individual congregations often organize group buys, and the church owns canneries where members can preserve the stuff.
I think my parents have a bunch of canned pinto beans, too.
I wonder if the survivalism thing is a reaction to LDS history, founding a state in the desert and all that. I generally think of Mormons as yet another scripture-themed PAC, only different from, say, the Southern Baptists in details like ascetism and stuff, but it's a fair point that the group's history is different from most.
An article on it here from the Sacramento Bee.
The Mormon food program has been in practice for more than 60 years, say church officials. No one knows for sure how many church members participate. "But I would say that those active in the church have some kind of personal supply," says Paul McIntyre, public affairs media assistant for the church in the Sacramento area.
Much of the food storage program is based on a verse from "The Doctrine and Covenants," a collection of revelations given to the prophet Joseph Smith and accepted as one of the church's scriptures. In this book, church members are told that, in uncertain times, it is "abundantly clear" to be prepared. "If ye are prepared, ye shall not fear."
175: Theologically, LDS is very different.
It looks like it has been part of the faith since the beginning, the 60 years above may be just the formal program.
Today, the church owns nearly 100 warehouses throughout the country. Church-owned farms and factories produce wheat, dehydrated fruit and vegetables, beans, and other long-term pantry items. Short-term storage items, such as canned chili, cocoa mix and pancake mix, are produced under the Deseret brand, based in Salt Lake City.
Wouldn't flour be more convenient than wheat?
Won't store as well.
The nice thing about being Mormon is, your local bishop can give you some money from church welfare funds if you fall on hard times and let you have some food and stuff from the Bishop's Storehouse, which is like a way-stripped-down Costco. There's your plan, Stanley.
Bulgar wheat probably stores OK and can be cooked by boiling, like rice.
Mormons are heretics! Baptists are just defective Protestants.
177: Oh, I know there are a lot of differences in beliefs, I was talking more about its role in society and stuff. James Dobson and William Donahue probably disagree about transubstantiation and a lot of other stuff, but somehow when they're on TV they're almost interchangeable. (And rereading it, my comment comes off as more dismissive/derisive than I like. I meant to be dismissive and derisive, I admit, but not that much.)
"Dear Bishop: I've been thinking about coverting to your church for a long time......"
I don't know how I got out of the service-in-the-church-tuna-canning-plant that my sisters had to do. Maybe it was because around my age group there were only three teenagers, including me, and that's just not enough to organize a car trip.
There is an LDS/ survivalist store in town. Cool stuff for your go bag/ earthquake/ endtimes preparations.
I've had arguments about theology many times. People not raised as Christians don't understand the Adventists, Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Mormons, and Unitarians are heretical spinoffs of Protestantism, not accepted by theologically orthodox Christians. So Baptists and Greek Orthodox might just barely accept one another, probably not, but neither would accept the five sects I named.
And I don't care about theology, obvs. But nonetheless I always need to say that.
Offer to marry a nice Mormon spinster, John. They'll get you in the water right quick.
My plan is to have people buy me beers while I tell them all about the secrets of the Mormon underwear.
In short, while it makes me sad that, supposing Christianity were the one true religion, and supposing that JM both returned to our ancestral faiths, that JM would be thrown into the Hell of fire for all eternity, and I wouldn't, those are just the facts of the matter.
My plan is to become a seventh concubine right quick.
Adventists, Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Mormons, and Unitarians are heretical spinoffs of Protestantism, not accepted by theologically orthodox Christians.
I've argued with John about this issue before, but I don't actually disagree with this formulation. I think the root disagreement is just that I, as a non-Christian, define the word "Christian" as including Christian heretics, while John defines it as excluding them.
I'm sure there are some hott bishops.
That's OK, Teo. Chinese tend to lump Muslims and Jews and don't realize that Catholics and Protestants are both Christians.
Very few Chinese have any concept of exclusive belief. Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism get all jumbled, and somethimes aspects of Christianity or Islam are blended in.
I think exclusive belief is mainly an idiosyncratic aspect of Western (i.e., Abrahamic) religions.
Aren't there any non-Abrahamic monotheisms? Come to think of it, I can't think of any (well, Zorastrianism, kinda?) but I'd think there must be some.
Zoroastrian, along with everything Persian, doesn't get the attention it deserves. The Persian influence on Judaism, Hellenism, and Christianity was enormous.
197: The Persain influence on the Jews does get some play in the Bible.
Aren't there any non-Abrahamic monotheisms?
Depending on the precise definition of monotheism, many Hindus might or might not claim to be monotheistic.
And at least historically there were others -- like the one Akhenaten tried to impose in Egypt.
JM, you can be my first concubine.
Aren't there any non-Abrahamic monotheisms?
Mithraism?
194.2 is why something as cool as Journey To The West could be written in the Chinese court back in the 1590s, while Europeans were still all about imprisoning astronomers who thought maybe the earth might go around the sun rather than vice-versa. It's pretty sweet.
196: Wikipedia is not immediately helpful, except that it lumps the religions that sort of equate creation itself with the creator (some notions of Hinduism, Sikhism, etc.) in with monotheism. It also waves in the direction of "There were probably some other Semitic tribes that believed in monotheism. We just don't know about them." Really surprising, I hadn't thought much about that before.
185: Where is this place, TLL? I've lately been lax in my preps, I have a shotgun magazine extention tube I haven't even installed.
Really, I don't know which is nuttier, possessing the tools to fix the tools needed to maintain the gear, or playing ostrich. Either way one dies eventually and my kids are grown.
The more I look into Zoroastrianism, the less I understand it. Dualism! Eternal flames! Divine Monarchy! Jumping over bonfires! Seven items that start with the letter s arranged in a household shrine will bring you luck for the new year!
I don't really get how these things fit together.
94: huh, I know a guy like that named Lee, too. Does he go to burning man?
94: huh, I know a guy like that named Lee, too. Does he go to burning man?
Even the phrase "exclusive belief" isn't all that clear. Parts of the Old Testament seem to say that other gods exist, and YHWH is special just because he's the god of the Hebrew people and there might not be anything wrong with people of other tribes worshipping their own gods. In conservative or pre-Enlightenment Christianity, God is unique and the other gods people worship are either delusions or demons. And in some liberal branches of Christianity, belief in other gods might be mistaken in the details but still reflects part of a universal truth. There are mutually exclusive meanings of "exclusive."
The philologist Max Müller coined the term "henotheism" to describe religions that allow for the existence of many gods, but say that only one is worthy of your personal worship.
There is not a single passage in the Hebrew bible that unequivocally supports monotheism and not henotheism.
the term "henotheism" to describe religions that allow for the existence of many gods
Or, depending on context, to describe the worship of chickens.
Hear, O Israel, the Rhode Island Red thy God is one God.
In conservative or pre-Enlightenment Christianity, God is unique and the other gods people worship are either delusions or demons.
I seems to me that, in as much as a demon is a supernatural entity, which isn't really so much different from a "divine" entity, except for its place in the pecking order. So a belief in daemons, (and angels, also) isn't really consistent with monotheism in the frame of "only one god exists." So holy rollers who cast out daemons are a lot more consistent with "henotheism" than with monotheism.
I have a shotgun magazine extention tube I haven't even installed.
I'm pretty sure the mailman will just put your shotgun magazine right in your regular mailbox, even after you extend your subscription.
People not raised as Christians don't understand the Adventists, Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Mormons, and Unitarians are heretical spinoffs of Protestantism, not accepted by theologically orthodox Christians.
I'm not sure I would have included the Adventists on the list, but I was raised Catholic, so even the Anglicans seemed pretty marginal from my POV.
Saturday Sabbath.
When Roman Catholicism absorbed Irish Catholicism, the two big issues were how monks should cut their tonsure, and how Easter should be calculated. The two ways of calculating easter, IIRC, coincided most of the time, but not all.
When the Old Believers left the reformed Orthodox Church, a big question was whether to cross yourself with two fingers or three.
The Old Believers survive in Oregon, among other places.
Little things mean a lot.
Last semester I had a student write a paper arguing that the Chinese Tian was identical to the God of the Hebrews. It wasn't a good paper, but the thesis itself raises issues in reference that I haven't been able to shake from my head.
In some ways the question "is Yaweh the same as Tian" is like the question "are Democritus's atoms the same as Nils Bohr's?" In other ways it is like the question "is Sean Connnery's James Bond the same as Timothy Dalton's."
I get other related questions in my head. "Can we say that Zeus is the same as Jupiter, but not Thor or Indra?" "Is the Marvel Comics Thor the same as the Norse Thor?"
Sadly, I don't know enough theory of reference to begin to sort these questions. My student had definite, if weird, ideas about what would count as proof of Yahweh = Tian. He started with the assumption that the Bible is literally true history, and then attempted to show through linguistic similarities and numerology that the Chinese concept of Tian had a historical connection to the stories of the Hebrew bible.
He seemed to be assuming a Kripkean theory of reference for the names of God, with the appearance of God to the Hebrew patriarchs as a baptismal event, and a requirement that all other names of God be causally related in the right way to this naming event.
Weird.
212: Well, there are polytheistic belief systems that differentiate between gods and other supernatural entities, so I don't see any reason a monotheistic belief system couldn't do the same.
216 has enough internet flameworthy material to be classified as Class F
The Old Believers have some rockin' choral music.
And I don't care about theology, obvs.
That's not at all obvious to me, Emerson, though of course it's clear you don't believe in any of it.
Old Believers, Orthodox, Catholics, Adventists -- don't take it personally. It's not you I hate, it's God. Chill.
Speaking of Catholicism, I had not realized that indulgences have been making a comeback until my wife pointed me to this NYTimes article.
You cannot buy one -- the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 -- but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day.
218. Oh, all to the good. Frex, Why the heck would the Norse God of Thunder disguise Mjollnir as a walking stick, so some lamo MD can become a superhero. Even the writers couldn't figure that one out, so the went into erzatz Norse mythology storylines. So Marvel Thor was not Thor, until he was.
223. I thought carbon offsets were the modern equivalent of indulgences.
That's the hard part. At some level I do care, as though I had learned to judge cattle according to some arbitrary and useless system that I no longer believed in. "No, look! See how one ear is noticably larger than the other? That's ten points right there! And I can see other points off too!)
One of the most common questions I was asked as a missionary in Ukraine was whether Mormons crossed themselves with two fingers or three.
Answering the question was complicated by the fact that the Russian word for "cross oneself" (which Mormon's aren't into) is the same as the Russian word for "be baptized" (which was the whole reason I was talking to these people).
226 - I'm also fascinated by theology despite being a confirmed atheist. There's some really cool stuff to think about, plus from time to time the arguments devolve into brutal violence, which helps keep things interesting.
Right now I'm learning a bit about the theology of Islam, which ought to be helpful now that the country is being run by a secret muslim. I'll be pre-reeducated, so I won't have to go to the camps like you lot.
the Russian word for "cross oneself" (which Mormon's aren't into) is the same as the Russian word for "be baptized"
Awesome.
I was just reading an interesting essay by Immanuel Wallerstein about the connection between Calvinism and the scientific method. Basically, you can't tell if you're saved/right, but you can tell if you're damned/doing bad science.
One of the most common questions I was asked as a missionary in Ukraine was whether Mormons crossed themselves with two fingers or three.
What, not left-to-right versus vice-versa?
What, not left-to-right versus vice-versa?
Some things are beyond the pale.
I started to get into the Eastern churches before I fizzled out. There are two major classifications of Eastern Churches, roughly the one where Jesus has two natures, and the one where he was human and not divine (rather like Unitarianism: Armenia, Ethiopia, South India, and Iraq). Both are a little intelligible compare to the Chalcedonian trinity. But there are all kinds of little variations on each, and many Eastern churches cut deals with the Catholics, Orthodox, or even Protestants. And then there are various mixed sects, and the Mandaeans who honor John the Baptist over Jesus, and so on.
And that's all garbled up.
231: The only difference these people could imagine was the finger thing. Reversing the lateral order was waaaaay too out there.
When I got back to the U.S., I actually ended up asking a Catholic whether they use two or three fingers, and they thought it was a weird question. I guess Catholics use the whole hand, maybe kinda scrunched up?
Mandaeans who honor John the Baptist over Jesus, and so on
Interesting!
Already during Calvin's lifetime French Huguenot pirates were pillaging Spanish American.
The only difference these people could imagine was the finger thing.
Catholics cross themselves like THIS, but Christians who cross themselves like THIS . . . .
Already during Calvin's lifetime French Huguenot pirates were pillaging Spanish American.
IIRC, Dampier thought it was OK to raid the Spanish because they were Papists. The booty was incidental.
Ok, the conversation has completely moved on, but multiple comments on this thread reminded me that growing up next to a nuclear power plant, we were consistently indoctrinated with the idea that any day could be the Chernobyl day. We spent much time in class and PTA meetings and the like making sure we all had family plans of what to do in case of an accident (meeting places, iodine (? I can't remember) pills to protect you a tiny bit, the duck and cover drill, emergency busing procedures). All of us little kids were fairly well convinced that this was just a big scheme to make us feel a little better about the (small) possibility we would all die very quickly without much of a chance to do anything about it.
Then there was the day I was home alone (4th grade or so) and the warning sirens went off. I panicked, thinking I was going to die alone, and then remembered my training and calmly turned on the radio to be informed that it was just a test. Thanks, Mom, Dad, for telling me about that.
242: Reminds me, San Onofre, one of my favorite beaches when I lived in SoCal. I think it was shown briefly in Koyanisqaatsi.
That's OK, M/tch, because I read 238 as the old "White guyys drive like THIS..." bit, and so chuckled.
I guess Catholics use the whole hand, maybe kinda scrunched up?
Post Vatican II, I don't think there was a prescribed method; I mean, I went to Catholic school for a couple years in the '70s, and there's all sorts of old-fashioned shit I never had a clue about. But we went to the "folk" Mass with the acoustic guitar songs. Anyway, what I have seen older Catholics do is to make a loose fist with the thumb out (kind of like Bill Clinton's gesture) and use that thumb. When I was a kid I just used an open hand and more or less all the fingers.
The Huguenot pirates mad a special point of desecrating Catholic churches.
When I played Pope Joan, I wandered around making the sign of the cross with two fingers. That's how all the popes and Jesus and the saints do in in Western European art, anyhow.
245: The Spanish did get their revenge.
That's what the heretic lady would have us believe, anyway.
When did you play Pope Joan, Jack?
One of the more hilarious things about being an Episcopalian is watching people make half-heated signs of the cross in various manners. Like so much else about the religion, it's kind of half-hearted gesture to tradition that no one's really learned the details of or takes that seriously.
2005? It was a production of Caryl Churchill's play Top Girls.
Like the reclining pews
I remember being quite envious of the padded kneelers at my friend's Episcopal church, whereas the RC church I attended as a lad were strictly wood.
No jokes about the man breaking wind in the church, Ben?
I think ben is pretending that he's shooting Catholics with his finger gun.
The philologist Max Müller coined the term "henotheism" to describe religions that allow for the existence of many gods, but say that only one is worthy of your personal worship.
Cyrus Gordon uses 'monolatry'.
Mithraism?
But nobody knows what Mithraism was about. (Except the hints from the symbolism, involving a bull, a lion, a scorpion and man, just like both the Babylonian calendar AND the Merkabah.)
Dualism! Eternal flames! Divine Monarchy! Jumping over bonfires! Seven items that start with the letter s arranged in a household shrine will bring you luck for the new year!
There's the bad dude, who brings all bad things, and the good dude, who brings all good things, and one of the good things is the cleansing fire. Light is full of goodness, and dark is full of badness (when you go to Heaven you cast no shadow). So you keep an eternal flame burning, and the newlyweds do the fire thing. The letter s thing is observed by Zoroastrians, but isn't integral, since that holiday comes (like everything else) from Babylon.
Note tho, all that is sorta smearing over to Manicheanism. (Mani playing the part of Jesus to Zoroaster's Moses.)
Sadly, I don't know enough theory of reference to begin to sort these questions. My student had definite, if weird, ideas about what would count as proof of Yahweh = Tian. He started with the assumption that the Bible is literally true history, and then attempted to show through linguistic similarities and numerology that the Chinese concept of Tian had a historical connection to the stories of the Hebrew bible.
Well, gee. A bunch of Nestorians fucked off to China back in the day, so the modern conception of Tian might be influenced by Christians (or not, I don't know). So he might be on the right track, but totally wrong as to his methods and his time frame.
I get other related questions in my head. "Can we say that Zeus is the same as Jupiter, but not Thor or Indra?"
We can split that one up into four questions: Did the Romans adopt near-identical cultic practices around the worship of Zeus to worship the god they called Jupiter? Yes. Did the practioners of the cult of Jupiter indicate that they themselves perceived that they were worshipping the same entity? I think that gets a qualified yes. Then we have a different question which is whether Zeus exists or not. If he does exist he either is or ain't Jupiter, and I think you would need to ask him. So that's kinda indeterminate. That leaves the the question of the conception of Zeus (or Jupiter) that exists in each praticioner's head. Unless Zeus (/ or Jupiter) is beaming his conception into the heads of his worshippers, then presumably each person's conception is individual, so nobody is worshipping exactly the same conception, even if they understand themselves to be doing exactly that. (Even if Zeus / or Jupiter exists.)
max
['Hackity hack hack.']
"Is the Marvel Comics Thor the same as the Norse Thor?"
I seem to recall a storyline where people are explaining to Thor that he isn't the Norse god because the Norse god had red hair, not blonde. And somehow he meets up with the "real" red-haired Thor. This would have been sometime in the mid-90s, probably? But Google isn't turning up confirmation about this.
essear you could ask the god himself:
http://www.askthor.com/
Plan B (personal financial catstrophe, the rest of the world keeps spinning): go live with my dad or Mr. B's mom.
Plan C (total armageddon in the next, say, ten years): as the boyfriend says, I'm pretty enough not to starve.
Plan D (armageddon after the age of, say, a hot experienced 50 year old): be a millstone around the neck of my smart healthy and adoring son.
Who is smart, healthy and adoring, yes.
At some level I do care, as though I had learned to judge cattle according to some arbitrary and useless system that I no longer believed in.
John, here's what I suspect:
You probably believe that in the long run we'd all be better off if people just gave up on belief altogether. But you're not strident about it, and you certainly feel no call to preach the gospel of atheism to your Woebegone neighbours. And anyway, in its socio-cultural-historical aspects, religion is of great interest to you.
Meanwhile, your socio-cultural-historical interest in all things religious has made you a bit of a theology snob. In particular, you have a palpable disdain for a specifically American version of Christian, which seems rather light on theological content and which also seems to lack a deep tradition or even a sense of history that goes back further than a generation. In the face of the mushy "be happy" and "be the best that you can be" message of the new megachurches, you find yourself oddly compelled to draw some lines and to make some distinctions (even though, of course, you don't believe in any of it!). So Lutheranism (Catholicism/Anglicism/etc) are wrong just because they are religions, but as religions, they can at least give a coherent (if ultimately wrong) account of themselves.
The word sailor looks a bit like a boat.
I quite like this observation.
mushy "be happy"
I got handed a booklet today just outside a metro station that looked like some mushy religious thing and had "happiness" and "life" in the title. I walked away with it but tossed it in a garbage can without opening it.
I was also handed a menu for a restaurant that looked like it was aiming for the take-out crowd. But when I sat down at work and looked at it, I discovered that it was too far from the office and not at all near where I live, making it completely useless.
266: First you want doughnuts, now you want a capsule summary of your attitudes toward the various sects that may or may not fall under the rubric of Christianity? What's next, Ari?! You want me to start reporting the hockey scores for you?
269: oh, it's easy. Jewish Canadian, bam, done.
269: You know what I really want? Calvin and Hobbes to come back. Failing that, a maple donut would be pretty nice.
You know what I really want? Calvin and Hobbes to come back.
Just to be clear: you mean the comic strip, right?
There's more than one variation on Jewish Canadian, Sifu. For example, there's Montreal, and then there are the suburbs (sort of like: there's New York, and then there's Long Island).
No no, identifying somebody as Jewish Canadian is more than enough to establish the entirety of their outlook on other religions.
Whenever someone mentions something in Canada, my first impulse is to look for the microcosm of that thing in Fredericton or at least New Brunswick. Have always wanted to visit there.
Why, are you a member of the Sgoolai congregation? If so, your website is riddled with typos and sentences that have blanks where important information should be.
277. 2: My dad's the rabbi there. No problem, though; the congregation's webmaster is pretty incompetent.
The word sailor looks a bit like a boat.
And choo-choo looks like a train, in particular a pair of 4-4-0 steam locomotives deadheading it back to the yard after a helper run.
279: You must speak to an awful lot of hobo consultants to have that level of specific knowledge.
I was thinking that the people who try to hide in the wheel wells of airplanes might have a unique perspective on the recline/no-recline question.
278: what the... really?
That's the weirdest coincidence of all time.
The least you could do is make fredshul.ca part of the EOTAW network, for pete's sake.
Wait, okay, seriously, what the hell is going on here? Ned, why did you google Fredricton?
277 to 284.
I'm unclear as to whether ari's serious either. Google suggests that no such rabbi shares his surname.
282: Dude. Doooooooood. My dad is a retired psychologist living in Shaker Heights, Ohio. I have, however, been to New Brunswick. Which is more than you can say, I bet.
Why does the wind blow? Why do flowers grow? The guy's cryptic, Sifu. It's right there in the name.
Ned, you may be the only non-Canadian I have ever encountered on the internets who has even heard of Fredericton, much less expressed an interest in the place. I went there once, when I was about seven years old, to visit some cousins (who now live in Toronto). I've always wanted to go back.
All Jews look alike to you people, don't they?
Hey, while the Canadians are around: How is "Newfie" used? I've heard it used seemingly as an insult and also seemingly as an in-group self-identifier.
I'm so confused.
Unlike the other 30 or so women at the conference, [Ilana] Kelman is not married to a congregational rabbi, although her husband, Rabbi Jay Kelman, was spiritual leader of Toronto's Beth Jacob V'Anshei Drildz Congregation for nine years. He is a founding director of Torah in Motion, a modern Orthodox adult education organization in Toronto. Both at the synagogue and with Torah in Motion, Kelman has taken a "behind the scenes" role, mostly helping out with programs."
I thought I googled a Kelman as the rabbi at Sgoolai or like the rabbi emeritus or... so confused.
I've never been to Shaker Heights or New Brunswick. Unless by "New Brunswick" you mean "Maine".
Or in my case, unless by "New Brunswick" you mean "New Jersey."
No backpedaling now, we all know your father is Rabbi Kenneth Zisook.
Learn more about him here. As a longtime US army chaplain, he was recently the only rabbi in Korea.
Hey, while the Canadians are around: How is "Newfie" used? I've heard it used seemingly as an insult and also seemingly as an in-group self-identifier.
So, the N-word then.
290: Well, since it's just us kikes talking, I don't mind telling you that, like many insults, it's used as both.
291: I say again: doooooooooooood. There are no rabbis anywhere in my family. And my family is small enough, thanks to Hitler*, that I'd know if there were.
* ftw.
297: well, okay, fine. Thank you Mr. Hitler. Geez.
Kenneth "Sifu" Zisook was also the officiant at Gaijin Biker's wedding.
Well, since it's just us kikes talking
Not that I mind your in-group camaraderie, but you do that I'm (among other things) of Polish-Catholic descent, no?
Maybe it's your spiritual father?
I wish MC would just end the suspense and explain all this.
The authenticity of sunsets around the world starting in Canada, a photo essay by Ari's dad.
I watched the video of "Springtime for Hitler" the other day. Funny!
So was the Letterman/Phoenix debacle a hoax? Or what?
So anyway, Sifu, what are the Hamas and the Palestinians, according to Hamas? You sort of let that sentence trail off.
It's really immature of me that all I can think of is "Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Torah in Motion," isn't it?
300: Dooooooooood. Yes, I know that, Kowalski. Seriously, I'm having one of those days where all of my jokes are going over people's heads/falling flat.
We're not done talking about Fredericton by long shot.
I've been to Fredericton, in the sense that going through Fredericton necessarily entails being in Fredericton. More important, I've been to Shediac.
I hope it's okay for me to comment in this part of the thread. I'm Catholic, but I've been mistaken for Jewish many times.
That blog is going right in the RSS feed. This is the sort of thing that will cheer you right up when you read it over breakfast.
I'm Catholic, but I've been mistaken for Jewish many times.
The "Jesus" thing pretty much pigeon-holes you as That Jewish Guy or a Mexican.
Most Newfie jokes (and there are a lot of them) are just boilerplate Paddy jokes, with a few of the geographical references changed for local colour. Absolutely, "Newfie" is both a term of disparagement and also an in-group self-identifier. Just watch the O'Toole brothers (Seamus and Jimmy: get it?) reading the news on Codco...
312: My first car insurance agent was a Filipino guy named Jesus.
This is interesting: the beginning of the end of the New England/Mid Atlantic Republicans in the Senate.
What about Drummondville, then? It used to be famous on Croc. Despite the name, it's a French town, apparently populated by the stupidest and most boring Frenchpersons ever.
There's a little girl in my son's class whose name is Heaven. No word of a lie.
I can't find any evidence that there are any rabbis named Jesus in any of the maritime provinces. Why are you changing the subject?
30£ from the government for a Mikmaq scalp - the law is still in effect and who knows how many people are going to take advantage of it in this desperate economic time. Explain that, you barbarians.
There's a little girl in my son's class whose name is Heaven. No word of a lie.
Are you making fun of my future daughter's name?
Careful heebie: these people are anti-Semites.
315: Speaking of which, was there ever an argument in favor of Gregg as Commerce Secretary. With all the talk about the Senate numbers, I can't remember reading or hearing a single word explaining why - aside from the Senate numbers - anyone, Republican or Democrat, or unlikely third party winner, or foreign benevolent dictator taking over the U.S. in a receivership arrangement - would ever appoint Gregg to the cabinet. Not that there was anything against him - aside from party affiliation in a Democratic administration - but was there anything special he could have brought to the position? Skills? Ideas? Pastries?
Much less stupid than Neveah.* Which is the name of some celebrity's kid, I forget whose.
*Heaven backwards. Used as a name explicitly for that reason.
319: Forgive me for my inattention, but is it a confirmed daughter?
fm is trying to make a move on your daughter in utero, heebie.
324: It is! But not named Heaven.
Isn't confirmation an adolescent thing? (I'm not Catholic, so I don't know.)
She is absolutely not allowed to fool around with boys until she is born.
320: You know you're jewish when...
You know you're from Newfoundland when...
- You only know three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup.
- You design your Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit.
- The mosquitoes have landing lights.
- You have more miles on your snowblower than your car.
- You have 10 favourite recipes for bottled moose.
- Canadian Tire on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas.
- You live in a house that has no front step, yet the door is one meter above the ground.
- You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard.
- Driving is better in the winter because the potholes are filled in with snow.
- You think sexy lingerie is tube-socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons.
- You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car.
- The local paper covers national and international headlines on 1/4 page, but requires 6 pages for local softball scores.
- At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant.
- The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun.
- Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof.
- You think the start of salmon fishing season is a national holiday.
- You frequently clean grease off your barbeque so the bears won't prowl on your deck.
- You know which leaves make good toilet paper.
- You find -40C a little nippy.
- The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freeze.
- You can play road hockey on skates.
- You know 4 seasons - Winter, Still Winter, almost Winter and Construction.
- The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus.
Well that just fucks it all up, doesn't it, Sifu.
321: He has access to all manner of granite. And the Obamas are considering redoing the kitchen in the Oval Office.
You know you're jewish when...
...your mother is of Jewish descent?
321: As I explain at my URL, between the Schumer left and the McConnell right Obama has found the vital Specter center.
I thought the idea was to remove a Republican from the Senate and put him in a useless job with no responsibilities. Then they found out the Census was important and Gregg wanted to have some impact on it.
Theodora, perhaps, name-wise?
There's a kitchen in the Oval Office? Geez, it's like you historians know everything.
336: a kitchenette, really. It's where Nixon cooked up Ketamine.
Foetuses are hard to sex. There are a lot of unexpected boys and girls around.
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Sobering news: commuter plane crash in Buffalo. Details still coming in.
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I think the point was to set the NH senate seat up for a Dem takeover in 2010.
you do that I'm (among other things) of Polish-Catholic descent, no?
So what you're trying to say is that your grandparents killed ari's grandparents?
I'm sorry, but I have to, all Emerson-like, object to Neveah as a name, just on grounds of theological stupidity. No doubt Ari (who always wanted to name a daughter Esidarap but who never quite got around to it) will accuse me of anti-Semitism for this principled stance, but sometimes it's important to draw a line in the sand.
Heebie, that's great! Very exciting.
342: Oh, I've known I'm of Jewish descent for a long time now. But thanks.
341: My grandparents lived at the time and live now in Chicago. Although, my grandpa used to be a mail-carrier, so I guess there's an oddball chance of some ricin letter or something. So: maybe.
342: All of my boys are named Ari. We drowned the girls at birth.
So the answer to 321 seems to be "no, it was entirely about Senate numbers." In which case my suspicion that once it was clear another Republican would be appointed, people would be trying to find ways out of the deal seems to have been on the right track. Or would be, if the census explanation wasn't out there. But at least with the census it looks like they're talking about policy and not about distasteful old politics vote counting.
My grandparents lived at the time and live now in Chicago.
That's pretty much what this guy claimed, Stanley.
347: Apparently you didn't hear me mention the granite.
350: Grandpa? Oh well, there goes my Plan B.
eb you don't buy the general left-blogosphere theory that he got leaned on by some GOP somebody-or-other?
341: Coincidentally, I'm talking this very moment to a guy who knew America's first ricin terrorist and his wife. I ahve to drop every name I can.
Foetuses are hard to sex.
Eh, there's no real difference for the first year and a half or so. Eventually the boys develop a tendency to produce smelly socks, which may or may not stem from a biological imperative which favours stinky feet. Nature or nurture?
352: and clearly there's more to the story here.
353: Not exactly. The whole appointment never made sense to me from any angle. So I've been figuring everyone wants to back out with whatever reasons come to hand.
352: Hey, none of that sock puppetry/imitating stuff. It's like the only rule we enforce with some consistency. So I edited.
Plus it's a different grandpa, so nyah!
Plus Polish. Hitler invaded Poland, history boy!
Foetuses are hard to sex.
Also, there's not much room in utero. And their parts are tiny.
I'll be here all week.
(any angle except Senate numbers, but then I don't know why Gregg would have been for that)
359: Like trying to smell mothballs.
358: Um, history boy, the Poles weren't so great to the Jews during WWII. You can look it up in a book and everything. Also, sorry about the sock puppet thing. I thought it was okay in jest, so long as it was clear that the puppeteer was kidding.
Also I hate you and want you dead, Stanley.
It's the only actual, enforced rule.
362: More nuanced history, jeez.
Hitler, bad! Populists, good!
The Chicago/Nazi nexus takes on another, sinister dimension.
367: It's worse than Buenos Aires, isn't it?
Also, sorry about the sock puppet thing.
No worries. Just don't do it again, or I'll sic my Polish grandpa on you.
(Too soon?)
It's never too soon for a Polish grandpa. I've got one myself, you know.
Or Muisyle?
If your going to name your child after a whole grain cereal, I'd just go with Granola.
I read something about Anne Frank recently. It pointed out that she was ambitious and talented and that if she had lived, her diary would be juvenilia and she would be remembered for other things.
Audrey Hepburn lived near Anne Frank and, IIRC, knew some of the same people. Hepburn's birth father was a Nazi and her maternal uncle was murdered by the Nazis. Many Dutch starved during the occupation and Hepburn was undernourished enough to have health problems.
So does that ruin her faery gamine image, or make it more interesting?
Katherine Hepburn was an entirely different story.
One of my nieces has a Polish grandpa. Jewish, even.
So does that ruin her faery gamine image, or make it more interesting?
I wouldn't kick her out of the attic.
I ban myself. On second thought, I blame ari.
362: Yeah, you and Josh are quite right and all, but maybe it's a theme that's altogether too fraught with burdens that nobody could reasonably be expected to assume in a comment thread at a blog named Unfogged and such?
Which I see your 363 nicely, and humourously, gestures toward, so never mind, and forget I even said anything...
Smithers, who is this Oogged character?
The Polish People's Party seems to have joined left wing parties together*, but the National Populist Union seems to have been a combination of right wing parties. I think there might have been a point in the 1920s when Poland had dozens and dozens of political parties.
*Wikipedia says supported the resistance, also supported Mikolajczyk against the Communists.
Boy, ari sock-puppets and gets reprimanded, I sock-puppet and it gets warmly embraced by Mary Catherine. Talk about anti-semitism!
362: Poland in WWII is a bit of an Enigma.
378.1 is confusing me. Is it your view that I really offended Stanley? Or maybe something else is going on?
375 to 382.
There! That clears things up.
380: The record now reflects your knavish deceit. DON'T DO THAT.
Stanley, if I offended you, either with my sock puppeting antics or by impugning your bubbie's integrity, I am sorry.
384: While Unfogged slept, one man, alone and unappreciated, held back the forces of chaos and anarchy through the judicious use of social shaming and the edit function.
385: You didn't offend me, and the sock-puppeting just gets confusing and is thus thoroughly deprecated. Beyond that, you're a snowflake.
Maybe you could use sockpuppet consultants to help the blog run better.
388 is possibly my favorite comment ever—assuming it's really from that Stormcrow fellow...
Oh dear. Now I'm fretting over 382's fretting over my 378.1. Ari! No, I'm pretty sure Stanley's not offended, but if I offended you, I am sorry.
387: dude, the guy hates you and wants you dead.
389: This is a terrific comment. You said exactly what I was thinking but phrased it much more elegantly and graciously than I ever could. Thank you so much for writing it!
"Do you see what happens, Larry?! Do you see what happens when you [pretend to be someone else on the internet]?!"
Children, quiet down! Sit in your seats! You're being impossible!
I was once an innocent masturbatory aid. Now I'm associated with fraud and deception. Damn you, internets!
There's a special warm feeling in my heart every time several people within an hour mock me. You guys really should try harder to make that feeling happen more often. Heartless bastard of a Mineshaft, if you ask me.
Whether or not the administration intended to open up the NH senate seat in 2010 for a Dem win, they seem to have effectively done so. Now everyone hates Gregg, who has decided not to run for reelection. And with NH trending the way it has been, that's clearly good news for the Dems.
Obama seems pretty pissed at Gregg for withdrawing, though, so this probably was not the plan. I have no idea what the plan could have been, though. It all just seems so screwy.
379 Polish People's Party, aka Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe, generally translated as the Polish Peasant Party. Don't quite get the relevance of the comment but it was a center-left party representing the interests of the peasantry. It was Mikolajczyk's party. In opposition and semi-underground in the thirties, in a coalition government with the semi-fascist right in the mid twenties before Pilsudski's coup, moved towards the Socialists afterwards. The central party of the uneasy broad coalition that formed the Government in Exile in WWII, the closest supporters of its first PM, Gen. Sikorski, previously head of the illegal anti-government opposition. Attempted to work with the Communists right after the war, got suppressed and its leaders either fled or got killed. My great-grandfather was one of its top leaders from 1930 on, after its previous leadership found itself arrested right before a parliamentary election. Need more info?
379 The National Populist Union/Confederation (Zwiazek Ludowo-Narodowo was the mid twenties incarnation of the National Democrats, commonly known as the Endecja. That movement started off as a populist right wing organization in the 1890's with proto-fascist elements. By the 1930's it was straight up fascist and extremely anti-semitic. Founded and long led by Roman Dmowski who started off as a very interesting analyst of Polish affairs and political organizer, and then became progressively stupider as his hatred of Jews gradually ate his brain. It or the PSL(s) generally had a plurality of popular support among ethnic Poles during the early twenties. Again, more info if you want it.
Secretary of Commerce really doesn't seem to do anything. At least, the Wikipedia pages for the last four Secretaries of Commerce fail to mention anything they did while Secretary of Commerce
Yglesias seems to have stopped his daily profiles of past Secretaries of Commerce, but they were pretty funny. Basically, yeah, nothing.
So does that ruin her faery gamine image, or make it more interesting?
By her own account it contributed to it, as she claimed that it caused her to be smaller and less, er, buxom than she would otherwise have been.
If anybody called a kid Neveah over here, everybody would think she was named after a skin cream.
I once met a guy whose business card said (inter alia) "Past President of the Young Men's Zoroastrian Association". No word of a lie.
re: 402
There must be a non-zero number of sort of Zoroastrians in the UK, I imagine; given the number of parsi immigrants.
Googling famous Parsi, I didn't realize the first Asian MP was elected in the 19th century, and refused to swear on the Bible [as a zoroastrian], and swore on the 'Avesta' instead.
and swore on the 'Avesta' instead
That would do the American fundies heads in!
I didn't actually meet the ex-YMZA official in Britain. I was living in a house 5 minutes walk from a tower of silence (One tried not to think too much about the odd bits of bone one saw lying around in the road). He was the only person I've ever met with an 8 page business card.
re: 405
My grandfather was in the India throughout the 1920s and 30s. He was a really keen amateur photographer, and in his albums there are photos of towers of silence. Complete with vultures.
Yeah, you get used to them. All the vultures in India are being killed off by some toxin used in agriculture, and Parsi traditions are completely borked.
re: 407
Yeah, they are being killed off by a painkiller. Diclofenac: the stuff in 'Voltarol'.
I guess that I'd move to Canada and get married. My boyfriend's parents are a lot more helpful than mine are.
The Adventists are weird theologically, but culturally they seem less other than the Jehovah's Witnesses.
So, back on topic:
1. If I lose my job: I will pay off my house, which I can afford to do, and survive on what pension funds I have left;
2. If civilisation as we know it goes tits up: I will die in short order;
3. If the world comes to an end: Apparently this is already happening, and my response seems to be to kick in a few quid to Oxfam and MSF. Probably this is not commensurate.
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Meanwhile, we can all stop masturbating to Estelle Bennett.
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I think that Susan Collins might be beatable, though my judgment is off because I had real hope that she would lose last time, but Snowe will only be gone when she chooses to retire.
I think that Susan Collins might be beatable, though my judgment is off because I had real hope that she would lose last time, but Snowe will only be gone when she chooses to retire.
If Collins didn't lose this year, facing a well-funded opponent in a year when voters basically wanted to set Republican candidates on fire, she's not going to. It wasn't even particularly close.
Don't quite get the relevance of the comment
379 was brought up by the discussion of Poland + the reference to populism in 366.
You're right,Gabriel, and Tom Allen was a pretty strong candidate, though his being from Portland may have alienated more Northern voters.
All I'm saying is that Olympia Snowe is more powerful than Susan Collins.
404: The Mehta family (Zuben, the conductor; Bejun, the countertenor, etc.) are Parsi.
Small-state senators are like gold for lobbyists. Small states are cheaper to pork up, and small-state elections are cheaper too. Daschle, Byrd, lots of examples.
