Pacing is also important when making grilled cheese sandwiches.
"I'd say that 80% of my peers have seen the gas station that they bring their vehicle to, downsize from a full service facility to barely more than self service facility within 2 years of officially forming the partnership."
"Also, you MUST make sure you're cooking her her fair share of open-faced club sandwiches."
If red blooded American males can't make their own damn grilled cheese sandwiches, there's no hope for the free world.
make their own damn grilled cheese sandwiches
OFE is apparently a yoga master.
He's mentioned scoliosis before, but it never occurred to me that you could be bent in useful directions.
Well if she won't make you a grilled cheese sandwich, you could just ask her for a blow job instead.
5: I saw a go-go boy in a nightclub once making his own grilled cheese and he barely had to bend over.
So is there anything new or different or particularly entertaining after the first 25 or so comments?
If this guy knew anything about venue shopping, he'd have asked Dan Savage. As it is, even the G-rated Boston.com seems to be breaking his way.
How about a euphemism? It's my birthday.
I saw a go-go boy in a nightclub once making his own grilled cheese
I've seen Ron Jeremy do it.
9: You might search for Headless Horseman who shows up at 41 and says he is the guy who Asked the Mineshaft sent the letter. Nothing too unpredictable, though.
I was just exchanging grilled cheese sandwiches a few short hours ago, and it just seems like an awfully useful skill to have. Maybe her mother never taught her? What are they teaching in home ec these days? I wouldn't want to live in the fear that someone will ask me for a grilled cheese sandwich and I'd be all "I simply cannot place your order because I don't know how or am squicked by cheese."
They're not really taking about grilled cheese, are they?
Man. You know what I'm hungry for right now?
What are they teaching in home ec these days?
It's true, this is a skill that home ec needs to cover. Nothing worse than knowing he'd like a grilled cheese, really wanting to make grilled cheese, but being wracked with doubts about whether he's really enjoying the grilled cheese. I mean, they can't *all* just be full from having a big lunch.
OK, seriously are they talking about oral or anal?
I love cheese on toast, both making it and eating it.
But the kitchen and the plate need to be clean, and condiments are nice, though not essential.
It seems wrong that "eating grilled cheese" means *receiving* oral.
Wait, what is "17 wasn't a euphemism, btw" a euphemism for?
18: Huh. I always understood that balloons were not to be swallowed.
The euphemism I've seen "grilled cheese" used for in real life is a lot nastier than oral sex, and urban dictionary tells me I'm not alone.
I always understood that balloons were not to be swallowed.
How else are you supposed to get your Mexican heroi--
Um, never mind.
24: It means, that this discussion actually is making me hungry for a grilled cheese sandwich.
Not that I would turn down a blowjob. Laydeez.
Condiments?
Mm, I am right now eating a slice of brown-bread toast with cheddar and an egg, over-medium, in the 100% non-euphemistic sense.
What's more, my Birds Eye frozen peas contained not one single bird's eye!
On May 21, a judge of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of California dismissed a complaint filed by a woman who said she had purchased "Cap'n Crunch with Crunchberries" because she believed "crunchberries" were real fruit. The plaintiff, Janine Sugawara, alleged that she had only recently learned to her dismay that said "berries" were in fact simply brightly-colored cereal balls, and that although the product did contain some strawberry fruit concentrate, it was not otherwise redeemed by fruit. She sued, on behalf of herself and all similarly situated consumers who also apparently believed that there are fields somewhere in our land thronged by crunchberry bushes.
According to the complaint, Sugawara and other consumers were misled not only by the use of the word "berries" in the name, but also by the front of the box, which features the product's namesake, Cap'n Crunch, aggressively "thrusting a spoonful of 'Crunchberries' at the prospective buyer." Plaintiff claimed that this message was reinforced by other marketing representing the product as a "combination of Crunch biscuits and colorful red, purple, teal and green berries." Yet in actuality, the product contained "no berries of any kind." Plaintiff brought claims for fraud, breach of warranty, and our notorious and ever-popular California Unfair Competition Law and Consumer Legal Remedies Act.
This probably bodes ill for my dingleberries lawsuit.
This must be the exception that proves the rule about newspaper comment sections.
Great, now I can't get the thought of Clarence Birdseye in flagrante out of my mind.
I've never understood the obsession USAmerican men seem to have with grilled cheese sandwiches. They're nice and all, but nowhere near as nice as other types of food. Also, anyone who can stay hungry while someone they love is making gagging noises is frankly a bit of a freak.
Plus, if you have a really big GCS you have to be careful about what sweater you're wearing or you'll catch PMS.
Also, anyone who can stay hungry while someone they love is making gagging noises is frankly a bit of a freak.
Your partners make gagging noises?
The comments were funny, but sort of vile given their suggestions to run, run.
35: No, but there are some men for whom the ideal grilled cheese sandwich is constructed in a fashion that leads to gagging noises. Due to actual gagging. From Deep Cheese Sandwich Grilling.
37: I dunno. If GCS is a big deal to the guy and the woman can't (for whatever reason) bring herself to make one, it seems best for both parties to consider whether this is a livable future. Is he going to eternally resent her and be all passive-aggressive about it for the rest of their lives? Doesn't seem like a sweet deal for her, either.
Your partners make gagging noises?
She asked, with intrigue.
39: Sure. Sexual compatibility is important. But they've been together 2.5 years, which leads me to wonder if the issue is more long-term commitment. If she started making grilled cheese sandwiches tomorrow, would he suddenly find something else that just seemed like it would be a problem?
Over the long haul, sexual incompatibility is a much bigger deal than people generally want to admit. Love doesn't actually conquer all except in the movies.
41: Exactly. This seems like a sign of pretty significant relationship problems--not necessarily because GCS could possibly be that important, but because he clearly resents her, not enough to dump her as a GF, but too much to imagine marriage.
41: Maybe, but it's also true that people can suppress strong sexual desires for some period of time (years, even) for the sake of a relationship and then reach a point where the unfulfilled desires become a more acute issue, perhaps something to deal with as the intimacy deepens.
Or so I hear. I've never had a 2.5-year relationship.
The only thing that's ever kept me in long-term relationships was really stellar sex. I can't point to other things about the relationships and say, "Oh, I stayed because he was such a good listener!" (even if he was), because, well, I can be friends with a good listener.
Yeah, you can tell yourself you don't really need grilled cheese sandwiches and get along without them for a good long time. But there does come a point where the low blood-sugar from being hungry all the time just makes you really cranky and unpleasant to be around.
it seems best for both parties to consider whether this is a livable future. Is he going to eternally resent her and be all passive-aggressive about it for the rest of their lives?
Obviously, that's right. A future of resentment and passive-aggression is the worst of all possible outcomes. And if that's what he feels the future holds, then yes, he needs to tell her so and either they'll work things out or separate. But the other option would be to do some goddamn work himself and try to figure out why the hell he's considering dumping a "perfect" woman just because she really doesn't like to accomodate this particular kink? What is it, exactly, that he's "missing" so much? His attitude struck me as fairly juvenile.
I knew I'd eventually be in the minority, but didn't realize I'd be so clearly in the minority by the time I posted the comment...
I'd like to judge him for being shallow, but I don't think I could tolerate a LTR that was missing some key sexual component that I found particularly satisfying, especially if it was on the level of a "kink." Kinks are really tricky that way.
39: I had an extended relationship with someone who was kind of lame in the kitchen. Other factors were sufficient to overcome the culinary deficiencies, and food was not the issue that lead to the split. We all make compromises because our ideal partner doesn't exist, and often can't exist due to irreconcilable conflicts between various desired characteristics.
That said, there are non-negotiable requirements, and if GCS is one of them, it's time to make a graceful exit. It seems weird to me that such a specific and apparently isolated incompatibility would be a deal breaker, but I have my own weirdnesses so I'm not in a position to judge. It's hard to make a split based on just one thing, but if it's the sort of thing that will be a pebble in your shoe for the rest of the relationship it's probably for the best. Ex mentioned above had a multiplicity of shoe-pebble incompatibilities, all of which I was aware of within the first two months of being together, but I sucked it up and stuck it out, leading to horrible misery down the line.
Over the long haul, sexual culinary incompatibility is a much bigger deal than people generally want to admit.
Come on, keep with the game.
47: To be fair to him, though, you can also read it as him feeling insecure in the idea that after 2.5 years, she isn't willing to give it a shot to make him happy. Being with someone who won't attend to your desires till death do you part is... not fun.
I don't think he's shallow, and she might well be better off without him. On the other hand, I am not willing to say something's wrong with her for not caring for making grilled cheese, such that it's only acceptable for her to refuse him if she's been assaulted (as some of the comments over there suggested) or otherwise traumatized.
some key sexual component that I found particularly satisfying
If you really otherwise liked someone, don't you think you'd be willing to think long and hard about what exactly (psychologically? physically?) you found so satisfying about that particular "component", and maybe work on some other ways to meet that need?
I do counsel "running away" (to both of them), not because of the GCS issue itself, but because he felt compelled to write the letter. Get the fuck out of the kitchen now both of you, it was a valiant attempt at a meal, but it will end badly with probability approaching 1.
53: True. Though it does seem like when you find a restaurant you really like, you tend to be more adventurous in trying out different things on the menu that the chef is recommending.
54: If you really otherwise liked someone, don't you think you'd be willing to think long and hard about what exactly (psychologically? physically?) you found so satisfyingdistasteful about that particular "component", and maybe work on some other ways to meet that need
42: Years ago a group of friends and I were off in the woods at a friend's family's camp. We were all drunk and high and goofy and playing a truth-or-dare kind of game (good idea!). One woman was asked some kind of grilled cheese related question and after some hemming and hawing she said that she had never and would never make a grilled cheese sandwich. Another (woman) friend and I fell on the floor laughing, because we were sure she was kidding. Oops. In any event, the subject was changed and the game was continued with everyone staying in great good humor. The weird part came when later the boyfriend of the woman in question took my fellow cracker-upper and myself aside to explain that no, no she was kidding she like totally blows him all the time, ok? And then I felt bad and squicky and complicit in badness.
That comment section restored some of my faith in the wit and perspicacity of my fellow Americans, which had been eroded by too much time in political website comment sections.
I was also going to quote the gas station comment that Apostropher quoted in 2. It's funny that the twice (?) -married Apo was so quick to single that out and quote it here. It's the sort of observation that has helped keep me unmarried for so many years.
I've never understood the obsession USAmerican men seem to have with grilled cheese sandwiches.
agreed. I'm not a picky eater and like every sort of cuisine, grilled cheese certainly included. But I can't imagine one single dish being a dealbreaker. I pay more attention to the general level of heat in the oven.
On the other hand, her unwillingness to make the effort and try a new recipe could be a bad sign generally.
if she's been assaulted (as some of the comments over there suggested) or otherwise traumatized
The letter writer stated in the comments that she had not. But honestly, oral sex isn't a "kink," for crying out loud. It's a staple, one of the most common sexual practices on earth. I wouldn't marry anybody who refused to engage in it.
You disgust me is a pretty bitter pill to swallow.
And I can see Well, it's not all of you, just some of you not really mitigating it all the way away.
52: I agree with that, and it's maybe worth their talking through that point more deeply. But if the answer comes back as "look, I care about you very much as try to accomodate you in many ways, but that's just one particular thing that I really dislike", that ought to be good enough. (And I'm judging mostly because it sounded like they had discussed it and that really was her answer, so his "dilemma" wasn't so much the genuinely troubling "why isn't this woman willing to try and meet my needs?", as much as just simply "But I want blowjobs!")
A few years ago, I had a nice little thing going with a guy who was an enthusiastic and frequent cook, but didn't have the breadth of go-to recipes I did. I was fine with it. He liked spicy exotic food, but mostly just wanted to make Thai all the time, because that's what he felt comfortable with. As time wore on and I tried to show him that if one likes cooking Thai, one might also like making Ethiopian, Sichuan, Oaxacan, etc., he eventually just sort of said he wasn't interested in cooking anymore. I was welcome to cook for both of us, or just for myself, but he lost even his interest in making Thai.
What is extra sad about this story, though, is that while it is euphemistically accurate, it is also literally accurate, and our cooking-together project went south at the same time as our "cooking together."
Last night's beau was very sweet. He hasn't been in the kitchen in a while, but he enthusiastically suggested some recipe neither of us had ever tried. The can-do spirit!
62: I know. I was just too lazy to go back and quote Brock.
that ought to be good enough
"I want blowjobs" is a perfectly good reason not to declare sexual fidelity for the rest of your life to somebody who isn't willing to do that.
Where does one find recipes that both savvy people our age haven't tried?
64: Is this the good, wholesome chef you've mentioned? I'm assuming it wasn't Tony Bourdain...
66: Engineers!
67: Yes, the wholesome one. I hope I didn't break him or anything.
65: Eh. It strikes a "grow the fuck up" chord for me, but I guess we just place different relative weight on the issue. I'd be curious why you'd refuse to marry someone who wouldn't engage in it, but that discussion might be a little too much for a comment thread.
But, like, I'm really asking. I'm not asking for specifics, although I suspect you'd give them, but at our age, haven't you tried most things you've thought of? I guess what I mean is, how is there an untried (and desired) thing in reserve?
66: I had this question too.
He liked spicy exotic food, but mostly just wanted to make Thai all the time, because that's what he felt comfortable with. As time wore on and I tried to show him that if one likes cooking Thai, one might also like making Ethiopian, Sichuan, Oaxacan, etc., he eventually just sort of said he wasn't interested in cooking anymore.
OK, this is where euphemisms become sort of frustrating.
There are certain cuisines whose afficiandos have that obsessive quality that leads them to forget about the chef entirely.
I'd be curious why you'd refuse to marry someone who wouldn't engage in it
This gets into the territory where the answer is itself and can't be stated better.
Because sexual compatibility *matters* in what's supposed to be a lifelong monogamous relationship. There are over six billion people on Earth; the person you're with right now isn't such a special snowflake that you should have to cede one of the most common sexual practices there is. Go find somebody else; women who'll give blowjobs aren't a scarce commodity.
Would you question not marrying somebody who didn't ever read books or who refused to go to church (if reading or church was important to you)?
When I read these comments, I can't figure out if people are fronting or what. Deep-seated incompatibility is a problem, sure, but one partner not being into one flavor of sex-- this is your biggest problem? People routinely stay married after years of hating each other, or stick it out if one partner is deeply unhappy or undergoes physical changes that completely derail formerly held attractions, they stay through infidelity or alcoholism.
My kid is starting to grow out of thinking that complaining more and inventing discontents will get him more, and he's got years to go before he hits puberty. Grow the fuck up-- problems talking to each other and balancing mismatched desires are the issue. Maybe all else is well, and the first point of friction is the bedroom, or maybe the writer is a child who thinks with his dick and doesn't know it.
71: I'm confused at the seeming need for judgment on either side. It all strikes me as very fucking junior high; "No you're the weirdo!", "No, you are." Everyone go read Kinsey again, for God's sake.
All of that said, the relationship is doomed and prudent people would end it.
It strikes a "grow the fuck up" chord for me, but I guess we just place different relative weight on the issue.
It does for me, too, but in the opposite direction. I wouldn't have the time of day for a dude whose attitude was "Eating pussy ... EW!" If the woman had a non-EW! reason, then I could maybe understand.
79: So don't fucking marry the guy and move on. YOU"RE THE NORMAL ONE !!! Jesus Fucking Christ Eating Mary Magdalene's Pussy on the Cross.
There are over six billion people on Earth; the person you're with right now isn't such a special snowflake that you should have to cede one of the most common sexual practices there is. Go find somebody else; women who'll give blowjobs aren't a scarce commodity.
I thought we were presuming he already cares deeply about her, rather than viewing her as a disposable commodity.
not being into one flavor of sex-- this is your biggest problem? People routinely stay married after years of hating each other
In both cases, the proper strategy would be not to have gotten married in the first place, right?
Assuming that Headless Horseman is the original letter-writer, his assertion that he's always ready to grill her a cheese sandwich doesn't actually mean he's any good at it.
Apparently many straight men get their idea of cheese sandwiches from cookery programmes with underpaid actors that teach poor grilled sandwich technique. (Hint: it's not the hole in the bread you need to grill, it's the little nugget of cheese in the middle.)
I agreed with all the commenters that if he really finds her so perfect aside from the GCS issue, he needs to sit down with her and talk with her about grilled cheese sandwiches, some time when neither of them are hungry.
I care deeply about a lot of people, but I don't marry them all.
desired) thing in reserve?
Desire belongs to a pair of people IME. Different pairs, different desires.
he needs to sit down with her and talk with her about grilled cheese sandwiches
As he stated in the comments, he has.
This is getting really close to a post I have partially written, wondering to what degree the average not-Unfogged-level-of-introspective guy who gets married is prepared for his wife's body to change and age over the years. In other words, there are plenty of 25 year old straight males who voice disgust over 40 year old female bodies, and yet want to live the one permanent partner married fantasy. I haven't quite made this question sufficiently interesting to myself yet, which is why it's still partially written. And this comment is probably a further nail in its coffin.
the proper strategy would be not to have gotten married in the first place, right?
Depends on the alternatives, I think. People marry for emigration, to escape poverty, to escape an insane family, to have kids. Sometimes bad is better than worse.
People routinely stay married after years of hating each other, or stick it out if one partner is deeply unhappy or undergoes physical changes that completely derail formerly held attractions, they stay through infidelity or alcoholism.
Wait, are you advocating this?!
I love the argument lw's making. LOOK! Wouldn't you sacrifice BJs to escape a brutal dictatorship?
72: I keep trying to think of a semi-discreet way to answer this question, but one wants a diagram. It's not like, an entirely new act or orifice or whatever. I can't think of anything at my age that I'm all "OMG, I still haven't done ____!" But mechanically speaking, there are all kinds of possibilities that haven't been explored.
Apo: Is the "one of the most common sexual practices there is" part an essential piece of you argument? I.e., are you arguing that sexual compatibility is important, and whatever he wants he wants, and he should find someone who'll provide it (even if that might narrow his options considerably)? Or just that this particular practice is so common that anyone who wants it is entitled to recieve it from a partner?
People marry for emigration, to escape poverty, to escape an insane family, to have kids.
I married someone like that.
87: I don't think the situation is as gender-specific as your comment frames it. Most 40-yr-old men don't look like 25-yr-old men either.
83.2 is very funny.
That said, the quality of his cooking, for this discussion, is irrelevant. You can always help your cook improve, but s/he has to be willing to get in the kitchen.
I actually don't get the judgement on the guy about the 2.5 years delay - obviously, he got into this thinking it wasn't a dealbreaker, but 2.5 years later, he really wants a goddamn grilled cheese, and if he can't get it at home, he's noticed that pretty much every diner in the world offers it.
I wonder if the problem with the GCS aficionado is that he's a head shover. I know women who have been turned of grilled cheese sandwiches because of bad experiences with guys who start out with a regular sandwich and then near the end go for the Deep Grilled Cheese without regard for their partner's comfort. I also know guys for whom this is simply part and parcel of the GCS experience.
83.2 - not to mention that The Goddess gave us fingers for a reason.
It's not like, an entirely new act or orifice or whatever.
This reassures me.
91: I see a new Sophie's Choice.
97: I have to think that if it's a technique issue, she would have told him - he says they've discussed it explicitly.
whatever he wants he wants, and he should find someone who'll provide it (even if that might narrow his options considerably)
Yes, but moreover that it won't actually narrow his choices much at all. The two most common reasons for marriages breaking up are money and sex. You should be on the same page about both before you decide to spend the rest of your lives together, forswearing all others. It isn't more "grown-up" to just gloss over those things, it's setting yourself up for failure.
93: I dunno. If you turned it around, as someone did above, and it was a woman writing saying that cunnilingus is really the way she enjoys sex best, but her boyfriend and potential husband is super-grossed-out by the idea of it, and it makes her feel like her parts are disgusting to him or something, I think the advice would make sense. (a) Try being clean and gentle in suggestion, (b) be patient, as there might be performance anxiety, and (c) if he's truly phobic about mouth+genital action, and that matters to you, maybe it's worth rethinking the permanent relationship thing.
97: Maybe when he's just about to come he starts belting out "Nearer My God to Me" and bludgeoning her about the head. One never knows.
104: Wait, is that deprecated now?
106: maybe that's what really bothers her, his irreligiousity.
95: True, true. The question popped into my mind when being bombarded by perfect female bodies on some media outlet, so I was tying the question in my head to exposure to that sort of thing. In other words, non-straight people have already discarded the family lifestyle as embodied in Tide With Bleach commercials, and many women certainly demand that perfect mom-ness of themselves and obsess when it slips. To what degree are their partners prepared for it to slip?
102: I think there's also a difference between what you should do in response to a change in sexual compatibility post-marriage, where you might have more at stake in working through it, and what you should do before marriage.
maybe that's what really bothers her, his irreligiousity narcissism
AWB: He liked spicy exotic food, but mostly just wanted to make Thai all the time, because that's what he felt comfortable with.
PGD: OK, this is where euphemisms become sort of frustrating.
"Thai" is a well known euphamism for clown make up.
||
They are having some kind of HS talent show on the quad. This is clearly not the HS featured in *Fame.*
|>
110: his narcissism
Of being overly attached to blowjobs!
37: The comments were funny, but sort of vile given their suggestions to run, run.
Actually, I didn't see many to that effect.
I did see someone say "let's not put the mine before the shaft," which makes me wonder if that thread isn't being swamped with Unfoggedtarians.
I think 109 is spot on. Isn't there some saying about keeping your eyes wide open before a marriage, and then shut them once you're married?
108: In other words, non-straight people have already discarded the family lifestyle as embodied in Tide With Bleach commercials
Flatly false. Many non-straight people specifically aspire to the family lifestyle as thus embodied. Why do you think gay marriage is such a hot-button issue?
re: 108
I think people of both sexes are much more accepting of change than they get credit for.
92 - I can understand that there are still minor variants left unexplored.
"Nearer My God to Me"
I want, by God, grilled cheese, I want grilled cheese!
E'en though just a sandwich, it raiseth me,
Still the dealbreaker be. I want, by God, grilled cheese.
I'm in the same situation as the Boston Globe letter writer. After 2 years it was difficult. After 5 years I've forgot what they feel like.
It should only become a problem if some Cinemax scenario occurs in which I am beckoned, nay, ordered, to commit adultery by the world's most alluring woman. Then it might be hard to return to routine.
are you advocating this?!
Not especially, just pointing out that a well-adjusted marriage is unlikely for many people, and a poorly-adjusted one may be the best life choice for many years. Well-educated people from comfortable backgrounds are trained to think of surviving or enduring as a lowered expectation, a path to suffering and weakness, but I think that is a mistake. Attitudes suitable for one part of life (parenting, work, romantic love) do not necessarily translate to others.
Oh, and I know three people who did in fact marry to escape dictatorship, and many who married to escape a village for the city.
115: Oh come on. They want marriage and family but non-closeted non-straight people have had to think at least a teeny bit about rejecting the hetero paradigm.
Props to you for knowing your own priorities, WHH.
116: Oh, probably true. And that is why the post would not spawn a very interesting thread, and should not materialize.
If you turned it around, as someone did above, and it was a woman writing saying that cunnilingus is really the way she enjoys sex best, but her boyfriend and potential husband is super-grossed-out by the idea of it, and it makes her feel like her parts are disgusting to him or something, I think the advice would make sense
Except that they're not really parallel situations, so 'turning it around' doesn't make much sense. Turning it around changes the problem entirely.
121: They also have to think about how to fit into it as closely as possible in order to minimize the freakishness they present to other parents on the block. And roughly speaking, many of the images of domestic bliss they're striving to attain are not that different from the hetero versions; non-straight gender is heavily inflected by straight gender.
re: 123
FWIW, I've been told to shape up a couple of times, due to changes of this type. And I've certainly hinted something similar in a past relationship. But neither situation was remotely a deal-breaker in either case.
Except that they're not really parallel situations
How so?
I once broke up with a girl by e-mail after she gained three pounds. I guess maybe that was mean?
124: How are they not parallel?
What are the two situations you're thinking of?
But evidence of incredible powers of discrimination. That pea under your mattress keep you up much?
Okay. The thing about all this is that it REALLY DEPENDS on why the woman isn't putting the cheddar between the slices. Is it the frying pan she doesn't like? The way the cheese is gooey when it's melted? Or did she have an experience with burnt bread on her GCS that was very upsetting to her?
Seriously, though, it matters. I don't particularly need or want to have GCS prepared for me, so being with a partner who didn't like to make them wouldn't be a dealbreaker in and of itself. However, if that partner's reason was "it's gross", I would be seriously annoyed, even though I don't care that much for them. If it was some trauma issue, on the other hand, that would be fine and he would never have to make me one.
I'm a firm believer that an important component of any sexual relationship is being willing to do the things that the other partner wants sexually, within reason. Grilled cheese is certainly within reason. Participating in group cooking classes is not.
Plus, anyone who doesn't derive some pleasure from doing a thing that your partner really really wants, even if it's not something you are crazy about yourself, is a shitty sexual partner.
But maybe I'm just a sub like that.
Better than texting her, DS. Email shows old-school class.
130: Aha! I knew there was something off about my mattress...
124 is wrong. They are almost exactly parallel.
124/34: Yeah -- they seem pretty parallel to me.
They also have to think about
125: Right - they have to think about it. I wasn't questioning what they want, but trying to target the population most likely to be on autopilot with respect to heteronormativity. People who aren't straight aren't on autopilot.
124: Same question. The non-parallelism I can come up with is that men are heartless assholes who don't care about anyone else's pleasure but their own, and resist cunnilingus out of culpable distaste for women, while women who don't want to give blowjobs are simply resisting sexual oppression from aforesaid assholes. But, you know, that's not true as a general matter, and if it does have some relevance to the specific relationship, the blowjobs aren't the problem.
As time wore on and I tried to show him that if one likes cooking Thai, one might also like making Ethiopian, Sichuan, Oaxacan, etc.
Oh, come on. Those are totally different cuisines! Maybe someone who likes eating Thai would also like eating them, but cooking isn't eating.
If it was some trauma issue
"I am the one who wrote the letter. I constantly make grilled cheese for her. She doesn't say she had any bad experience with making grilled cheese, she just says she is disgusted by it. I, trying to be a good boyfriend, was respectful and backed off. We have gone over it several times through the 2.5 years, but she isn't budging on it. I tried to tell myself that there are more important things than grilled cheese, but I'm starting to feel that she is just selfish when she has no problem taking a grilled cheese I made."
132: Too bad Western Union stopped its telegram service* a few years back.
*I have sent exactly one telegram in my life. I suspect the lifetime count for many (most?) people under the age of 50 is zero (but maybe not).
Participating in group cooking classes is not.
I didn't mean to say that there's anything wrong with cooking in a group. It sounds rather fun, to me. But if someone said "nope, I'm not ever gonna do that" that would be understandable, where as "NO GRILLED CHEESE EVER" is not.
p.s. I want to note that the men in comments saying "I used to get grilled cheese every day!" are annoying. Seriously? Every day? And the other one "most men can't make it 2.5 days without grilled cheese?" Come on.
Anatomic reasons? I've known a number of women who have trouble getting off with a partner through any means other than oral sex.* I've never known a man with that issue.
* These were not partners of mine, I feel compelled to add, although I'm not 100% sure why.
YOU HAVE GAINED THREE POUNDS STOP WE ARE DONE STOP DO NOT CALL ME STOP COW STOP
No, the real reason it's not parallel is that women's nethers really are disgusting.
*ahem*, or so I half thought Brock's justification might run.
I've never known a man with that issue.
The low-hanging fruit that plucks itself (multiply).
But maybe I'm just a sub like that.
Yeah, me too, M. I don't get how one can not be titillated by fulfilling some aching desire in one's partner, unless that aching desire was either (a) reminiscent of some past abuse, or (b) about getting off on one's disgust for the act.
I'd been in a few relationships with guys who pressured me toward anal sex in ways that made me assume that the only reason a guy would want anal is to deny the woman pleasure or put her in a potentially painful situation. In those cases, saying no to something he really wants seemed indicative of some pretty important larger problems. But when I was finally with someone whose desire was very clearly not about wanting to violate me or cause me pain or humiliation, I was all for it.
Someone in this situation seems not to be working in good faith. Either the guy is not demanding grilled cheese in a way that makes her feel excited and pleased to do it, or she is assuming that all grilled cheese is inherently abusive.
But if someone said "nope, I'm not ever gonna do that" that would be understandable, where as "NO GRILLED CHEESE EVER" is not.
Why? What's the difference?
I've never known a man with that issue.
I've certainly known men who found oral or manual stimulation (whether by self or other in the latter case) to be much, much easier at generating orgasm than intercourse.
You just don't know because you aren't having sex with dudes (so I infer).
148: Because of the capitalization.
146: I guess I should have said "heard of" a man with that issue. I don't have a lot of first hand experience. N=1 on the men I've tried to get off.
But if the facts are in dispute, maybe I'm wrong: have any of the women here run into such men?
The reasoning in 138, IIRC, came up a lot in the Twisty Faster blowjob debate. I think Twisty's position was that giving a blowjob meant submitting to the patriarchy. I'm not going to check, though. I'm working. Really I am.
N=1 on the men I've tried to get off.
You've never even tried to masturbate?
The telegram is truly old-timey. Goddammit, I should send somebody a telegram.
I've certainly known men who found oral or manual stimulation (whether by self or other in the latter case) to be much, much easier at generating orgasm than intercourse.
I don't doubt that. Your "or" is part of what I was thinking way back in 54.
People clearly have the right to say no to anything they want to say no to in bed, but I have to admit the whole TF blowjob thing (as well as some of the OMG OPPRESSION OF LAYDEEZ stuff on Sociological Images) makes me say, "Eh, I wouldn't worry about it." There was a time when I got so caught up in the whole radfem thing that I couldn't even come during sex anymore, and even had a really hard time getting aroused. ZOMG is he oppressing me??? If my giving an enthusiastic blowjob allows the patriarchy to win forever, I'll be pretty surprised.
152: okay, let me amend my earlier statements to say: if the Headless Horseman is such a fellow, then all judgments are off. (Except for the "you really should have been more clear about this 2.5 years ago" judgment, but that's a mild one.)
What's the difference?
Is this a serious question? Because group cooking classes may require you to a) perform cooking, which you may not want to do b) cook with people you don't want to cook with. Maybe you just want to cook with your partner.
I could go on and on.
My mom leaves phone messages like it's a pay-per-word telegram. With big pauses to convey extra meaning, ie "Heebie. Mom. Tuesday morning. Will call Wednesday. Not urgent. Love Mom."
153: You were not only submitting to the patriarchy, you were betraying solidarity with the sisterhood, setting up the expectation among men that they could violate women's mouths and essentially making a whore of yourself.
Twisty was usually sort-of-kidding when she used rhetoric like that, but in a way that boiled down to the White Goodman "Just kidding! But not really" maneuver.
157: Plus you're strong enough to break me in half. No, it won't be you.
Also, she weirdly leaves out spaces when writing the subject of an e-mail, so it'll say something like "MomAndDad'sTravelDetailsForUpcomingTripToAustin".
155: Unless they've reinstated it since, from 2006.
By last year, only 20,000 telegrams were sent at about $10 a message, mostly from companies using the service for formal notifications, Chayet said. Last week, the last 10 telegrams included birthday wishes, condolences on the death of a loved one, notification of an emergency, and several people trying to be the last to send a telegram.
she weirdly leaves out spaces
Waste not, want, heebie. You think spaces just grow on trees?
There was a time when I got so caught up in the whole radfem thing that I couldn't even come during sex anymore, and even had a really hard time getting aroused.
I hate to admit this, but I think this was going on for me for a while. May still be.
FEMINISTS ARE TEH FRIGID
But Brock, even if he comes during fucking, he might still want blowjobs a whole lot.
You think spaces just grow on trees?
No, but you can buy it at any gas station for a quarter and easily get enough for an e-mail.
Peak space will arrive before you know it ANDNOTHINGWILLEVERBETHESAMEAGAIN.
Skipping some comments because these threads move too fast for my simple mind, but anyway.
LameInSackEx mentioned above was turned off by blowjobs to the point of letting me know that going to completion was bad bad bad. Her reason? She had a visceral horror at the thought of sperm hiding in between her teeth. Seriously.
164: There was a review on NPR of a book that was a collection of awkward emails from moms to their adult children. here it is.
167: I don't know if this helps or not, but what I realized was going on was that, although, yes, the possibility of getting really turned on by a gentle, thoughtful, totally unoppressive partner of indeterminate gender performance would be nice and all that, I have been raised in a patriarchy, and want what I want, which is quite often not that gentle-equals business at all. What ends up happening, I think, is that it was learning to accept that, hey, this is a big part of who I am, that these things get me hot, that eventually allowed me to think more broadly (and less subbily) about desire. You don't get to the gentle-equals part without admitting that sometimes you come from being subjugated.
168: even if he comes during fucking, he might still want blowjobs a whole lot.
Yeah, I get that--see 47, my first substantive comment in this thread. What I don't get (and have also asked upthread) is why that would be. Or, to rephrase: I'm skeptical that this is a purely physical want, and I'm dubious about the health of its psychological underpinnings. But, now I've implicitly disparaged many of you, too, so I'll stop.
I want blowjobs because Snoop Dogg talks about them so poignantly in his recorded popular music. Isn't that why most people want them?
173: at->are
P.S. thank you for helping me fulfill one of my fantasies.
Lots of women don't love head for the reason that it is their one and only road to an orgasm.
How do we know that? Maybe Snoop was just nonsense-riffing one day and the words "grilled cheese in yo mouth, bitch," just sort of popped out, and he thought to himself: Hey! That's actually a good idea.
My friend worked with Snoop Dogg this past winter. Snoop is not the consummate professional you might expect.
174: That's very smart. I get that on an intellectually level, but have trouble getting past the "what's wrong with me?" part. Although I think you're right that without the shame part, it would probably be less hot. Which is a very funny thing.
What I mean is that it is perfectly easy to imagine a heterosexual couple in which the woman can come any number of ways, but is very fond of getting head. She loves it! She would hate to go without it. It feels great. The man in this couple says, "Ugh, no, I will never ever do that. It just grosses me out. I can't. Sorry, it's off the table."
175: What's really bizarre, Brock, is the idea that your (or my) personal experience ought to generalize well in this way. Inexperience or naivety about this I can understand, but it also goes against pretty much everthing known or surmised about the subject and written down.
I mean, sure, everyone has a natural tendency to think of their own experience as normative and have varying success in countering it. But peoples sexual response is complicated and highly variable, and it's hard for me to imagine how anyone can miss out of this very basic fact except willfully (which is still very common).
182 to 127. Sorry, I don't know what the hell happened.
What I don't get (and have also asked upthread) is why that would be. Or, to rephrase: I'm skeptical that this is a purely physical want, and I'm dubious about the health of its psychological underpinnings. But, now I've implicitly disparaged many of you, too, so I'll stop.
So what we've learned is that for Brock, it is not a physical want.
184 is welcome since 179 is very confusingly phrased.
You hear that, rfts? I am criticizing your ability to make yourself comprehensible in writing.
Not only is the criticism is writing, but it pertains to an ability of yours which concerns writing.
175: I think there can be reasons for wanting sex acts beyond "that's how I come," which is not to say at all that they are bad or humiliation-based reasons. I know I've joked here about cunnilingus being overly used in some of my relationships, especially as it's not my "thing," orgasm-wise, but I find it terribly endearing, very sweet. It says something about a person, and usually something very good. I suppose I'd feel that way if I were a guy about blowjobs. "That's how I come" and "I like to humiliate a bitch" are not the only reasons why someone might find it compelling to have a mouth on their genitals.
I will admit that my attitude toward making grilled cheese for UNG was pretty close to the letter writer's girlfriends -- which seems like plenty good reason to tell this guy to move on. It wasn't the act itself. It was really sort of the thought of having to cook for him while he laid around doing nothing when it had been ages since I'd had the chance to get out for something nice to eat.
And to 175, it wasn't that I never got to eat at all. So I suppose in that sense it wasn't a "physical" want. But after eating nothing but ramen day in day out for years, wanting an occasional grilled cheese sandwich is not an unhealthy desire. Wanting a varied, balance diet is perfectly reasonable.
I'm skeptical that this is a purely physical want,
Dude, I do not even have a cock, and even I know that getting one's cock sucked must feel really really goddamn good.
As for health of its psychological underpinnings, you know, people wanted blowjobs even before there was porn. Sure, porn has made it popular, but wanted to lay back and relax while your partner does something to you that feels really nice and makes you have an orgasm does not mean you are fucked up in the head.
Not only is the criticism is writing
hmm. quite.
I love to humiliate a bitch.
181: I... somehow expected that!
Award for Hip-hop Group to Most Disagreeably Surprise Me in Person: De La Soul.
183: without the shame part, it would probably be less hot
Catholicism FTW!
What I don't get (and have also asked upthread) is why that would be.
You can stay alive and perfectly healthy eating nothing but a vegan-approved diet. Why then would anybody ever want to eat anything else unless they had some unhealthy psychological issues around farm animals?
I concur that 179 is a disaster.
I understood 179 perfectly well, rfts.
It wasn't the act itself. It was really sort of the thought of ...
I suspect there is rather a lot of this --- namely problems with sex acts that don't really have anything much to do with the sex acts themselves, but rather are exposing underlying issues in the relationship that are exercised by this
Catholicism FTW!
What a pity that it is not a sin to drink water! How good it would taste!
189: Not only is the criticism is writing
Neb? Are you Yglesias feeling OK this morning? Whatever you do, don't go to the light.
DiKotimy's 192 is spot-on. I'm an enthusiastic grilled-cheese-maker (laydeez..), but I can certainly see a situation in which resentment towards my partner (sexual or otherwise) would make me be like "fuck that, I'm not doing that."
Snoop is not the consummate professional you might expect.
I think that has been established previously.
201: It's probably a sin to drink from the holy water font.
My friend who introduced me to Jammies used to live with him in college. When he made a grilled cheese sandwich for himself, she'd sneak up and pounce on it with a cookie cutter, and leave him with a snowman or christmas tree shaped sandwich. He'd predictably (and delightfully) get really annoyed and demand that she leave his sandwiches alone.
Let me rephrase once again, and then that's enough, and I'll stop, I think: no, wanting to lay back and relax while your partner does something to you that feels really nice and makes you have an orgasm does not mean you are fucked up in the head. And if his partner wanted to do that, great. But she doesn't. And she's made that clear. I think ditching her over that fact (assuming everything else is just dandy, which he claims) evidences something problematic. Wanting it is fine; wanting it enough to leave the person you love is not fine.
And sure, in a situation like 184 the two hypos are completely parallel. All I was saying is that they're not necessarily parallel, perhaps not even usually.
206 reminds of my youth, before the beer belly, when I used to lock my feet in the bedframe behind my head and get backaches.
207.2: Sadly, not all the world's men are as accommodating and willing to please as we Canadian men are, Brock. Or you Yanks, either, to a reputedly lesser extent.
I sure hope 206 is dropping the euphemisms.
Also, is 208 saying what I think it's saying? Because if so, I'd like to un-read it, please.
assuming everything else is just dandy, which he claims)
But Brock, you're missing the point. If your partner stalwartly refuses to engage in a fairly banal sexual act that you really want for no real good reason (beyond "don't wanna), everything is not "just dandy." It means you have a bizarrely selfish and weird partner w/r/t your own sexual needs. Which does not bode well for the health of your sexual relationship in general.
206: At first, I tried to read this metaphorically.
Laughing so hard at 206. Good one, bob.
I'm skeptical that this is a purely physical want
But it is a very different sensation from any of the other obvious alternatives. It's not entirely unreasonable to suggest that someone go without, but that's different from saying that a chicken salad sandwich is a perfect substitute; it's not.
I'm dubious about the health of its psychological underpinnings.
I don't entirely disagree, but it will depend very much on the individual's experiences/tastes. For instance, if I enjoy food of every style and cuisine, then skipping one kind of sandwich forever might make me occasionally crave it, but it wouldn't be a big deal. But if my entire menu consists of 3 sandwiches, then dropping one from the list is pretty limiting.
206:she'd sneak up and pounce on it with a cookie cutter, and leave him with a snowman or christmas tree shaped sandwich.
This wasn't just after Mermaids came out (1990), was it? Or maybe Jammies roomed with Cher!
wanting it enough to leave the person you love is not fine
Most of us love multiple people through our lives, but marry only one (or a very few, or none). What are the acceptable reasons not to marry the other ones?
What are the acceptable reasons not to marry the other ones?
She wore make-up?
This wasn't just after Mermaids came out (1990), was it? Or maybe Jammies roomed with Cher!
That was my thought exactly.
Right after I got through wincing at the image of a cookie cutter anywhere near my sandwich.
What are the acceptable reasons not to marry the other ones?
Gaining 3 pounds.
Misuse of "lay" and "lie."
Smoking dope on camera for 247 minutes.
219: "I can't marry you because of what apo said."
Yeah, that makes sense.
Unless cookie cutter is also a euphemism.
What are the acceptable reasons not to marry the other ones?
polygamy laws, for one.
224 to 221 and various earlier comments.
What are the acceptable reasons not to marry the other ones?
we really shouldn't be judgemental.
Also, she weirdly leaves out spaces when writing the subject of an e-mail, so it'll say something like "MomAndDad'sTravelDetailsForUpcomingTripToAustin".
I remember when I first started using e-mail in the early 90s while working at a university, and the subject line was limited to, say, 64 characters or something like that, so it was common to drop the spaces in subject lines. Maybe your mom didn't get that memo that more space is available now?
It means you have a bizarrely selfish and weird partner w/r/t your own sexual needs.
Not necessarily. It might also mean there are good reasons that you just don't know and that your partner will figure out after years of therapy and a messy divorce....
arg. 227 has the wrong quote.
preview, preview, preview. not that it was actually funny, anyway.
229: Yes, or that. Either way, there is something wrong..
231: Exactly. If something feels like a big problem, it probably is -- even if you haven't figured out exactly why yet.
216.last: I don't entirely disagree, but it will depend very much on the individual's experiences/tastes. For instance, if I enjoy food of every style and cuisine, then skipping one kind of sandwich forever might make me occasionally crave it, but it wouldn't be a big deal. But if my entire menu consists of 3 sandwiches, then dropping one from the list is pretty limiting.
Yes, this. A couple's sex life is unique to that couple; if you don't like making GCSs, that might be just fine in your sex life with one guy, but not just fine with another guy. It does not mean that you are, objectively, a bizarrely selfish and weird partner; at most it means that you aren't well-suited to those who need to have a GCS.
a fairly banal sexual act
m., my guess is that she does not feel the same way.
m., my guess is that she does not feel the same way.
nor he.
and therein lies the (lack of?) rub.
But if my entire menu consists of 3 sandwiches, then dropping one from the list is pretty limiting.
He did say she was a great chef otherwise, and cooked a wide range of dishes, just not grilled cheese. He said she even likes to "eat in the park," which seemed to be his tortured euphemism for anal.
I dated a guy who wouldn't cook me a grilled cheese, but it was a brief fling, and he was a horrible chef anyway. (Among other things, he couldn't keep the burner lit, even while I was grilling his cheese.) I wouldn't have wanted to be stuck with him as my cook forever.
Still, I admit I thought the LW was a little shallow. He's getting a wide range of menu items; he finds them delicious and satisfying; he loves the cook and the cook loves him.
But if not getting grilled cheese is a deal-breaker, it just is. At least he's not sneaking out to the Huddle House, picking up a side of hash browns too and getting ketchup on his collar.
234: Yes. And it's totally acceptable to be what others might deem prudish. Just as it's totally acceptable not to want to spend the rest of your days with someone you find prudish. In fact, it's sort of cruel to "sacrifice" your desires as if that were some sort of charitable gift to your prudish partner because then the partner has the joy of always being in the one down position. "But I gave up GCS for you!"
Also, despite his claims to the contrary, the fact that he seems unsure why exactly she's not interested makes me doubt the extent to which they've really "talked about" this issue. My guess is "we've talked about it" means "I've pressured her to give me a blowjob".
and therein lies the (lack of?) rub.
Which sucks. Or doesn't.
238: I agree with you on that one. Or at least that she perceived the discussion as pressure.
This thread is way, way underblown.
Although, come to think of it, I'm not sure how you discuss the issue without it coming off as pressuring. "So, can we sit down and talk about why you won't blow me?" seems pretty indistinguishable from "I'd like to talk you into blowing me." The fact that he says she's a great and varied cook otherwise does sort of undercut speculation that it's symptomatic of deep relationship issues.
I'd never truly appreciated the adjective 'blowsy' before
My guess is "we've talked about it" means "I've pressured her to give me a blowjob".
It seems to mean "I tried to figure out why she wouldn't give me a blowjob, and didn't get a clear answer."
236.1: Really? I thought it was a euphemism for "have sex outdoors."
238: "Pressured" depending on interpretation could mean anything from simply asking "so, is there a reason you don't like to do X?" to saying "hey, just hold your head still while I do this... let me just position like so... hey, why do you keep moving your head?" We really have no way of knowing.
Mmm. No one should be pressured into doing anything they don't want to. But a blanket no on oral sex seems like the sort of thing that should either have a simple, persuasive answer (prior trauma, painful muscle spasms), or be indicative of something that means something important about the relationship (your genitals disgust me; I have no interest in facilitating your sexual pleasure). In the absence of a simple, persuasive answer, if I couldn't figure out what was going on, I wouldn't judge someone for leaving.
(Pronouns drifted there, but I think it's comprehensible.)
What are the acceptable reasons not to marry the other ones?
Bigamy laws?
238/245: right, if you ride the speculation train far enough, you can end up just about anywhere
249: For instance, see 97/104.
I KNOW A GIRL WHO THINKS IT GOES
SHE'LL MAKE YOU BREAKFAST; SHE'LL MAKE YOU TOAST
BUT SHE DON'T USE BUTTER; SHE DON'T USE CHEESE
SHE DON'T USE JELLY OR ANY OF THESE
SHE USES VASELINE
if you ride the speculation train far enough
Are we moving on to a new euphemism now?
She thinks it goes, or she thinks of ghosts?
if you ride the speculation train far enough, you can end up just about anywhere
If you run the tape backwards, it looks like the cops are picking Rodney King up off the ground and sending him on his way.
YOUR WAY IS BETTER, BROCK. DAMN YOU.
253: She thinks of ghosts.
You'd think Wayne would remember, wouldn't you?
256: Eh, he's done a lot of drugs.
This was my situation in my longest-term relationship to date (2.5 years), which was also my first relationship. It felt crappy to me because (I think) it reinforced pre-existing feelings of self-doubt about the attractiveness of my body.
245: Me too! He says "She makes every other kind of food imaginable, even the kind you [eat in the park]. But i am just obsessed now with having a grilled cheese!"
And when another commenter is confused by that, he replies ""Eat in the park" was a censored part of my reply that mentioned a "3rd" place to go for dinner."
So I assume anal was what he meant, but other interpretations are welcome. Sex with pigeons watching? Sex on a grassy knoll?
I'm torn between the idea of sending my girlfriend a link to the column (and maybe to here, where there's some less-tortured discussion), and trying very carefully never to mention it at all. 242 is also quite correct.
246 and the earlier comments making the same basic point get it right.
260: definitely send the links from an anonymous email account, and claim ignorance.
260: I wonder if you couldn't effectively frame it in terms of being interested in getting over your hangup about not getting it? "I know it's something that's really not on the table for you, and it's really important to me to be respectful of you and how you feel about it. But it's really bothering me that I seem to find myself thinking about it so much. I don't want to feel like I'm not focusing on us because I'm so distracted by this thing."
a "3rd" place to go for dinner
Ah, that would pretty much clinch it, yes.
Well, sociologist Ray Oldenburg argued for the importance of a 3rd Place.
Two further points on 258:
1. Her reason was that it felt submissive.
2. She was a connoisseur of my grilled cheese, which I also enjoyed preparing for her. But after time, I started enjoying it less b/c of feelings of resentment over non-reciprocation.
263: "I tried to talk to my therapist about it, but I couldn't understand what she was saying, what with her mouth being full and all."
People who don't want to give oral might have good reasons, but when I was first starting out, I had bad reasons that were later corrected. So I can see a scenario where talking about it would overcome her resistance to the act.
(When I was inexperienced, I didn't think that you could stop before finishing (because I am not partial to stopping halfway so I assumed he wouldn't be either); I didn't know you could switch it up with a handjob; I didn't know what depths were effective for him. I swear, the best thing Dan Savage ever wrote for me was "it's a blowjob, not a lease". All of those were readily fixable, but I started off with odd ideas that made the task much more formidable (not disgusting) than it turned out to be.)
Each month is gay,
Each season rich,
When it comes with a
Grilled Cheese sandwich.
Her reason was that it felt submissive.
Just point her to Colossians 3:18 and tell her you're not willing to argue with God.
266: there are lots of fun things you can do to lessen the submissive vibe. She could tie you up first!
But it sounds like this advice is coming too late.
I don't think I agree with 242 at all, at least not if the relationship's healthy. If you can't have a straightforward, honest discussion about an aspect of your shared sex life, then there's a problem in the relationship*. But if it is a healthy, mutually-respectful relationship, then that discussion's not hard to have without it being pressure (except insofar as any request or discussion or negotiation is "pressure").
Shit, Bad Old GF and I certainly didn't have a healthy relationship, yet we were able to have a related discussion that was non-pressureful. Negotiations and love songs, you know?
* Granted that there are millions of uptight yet happily married people to whom this applies. But they're working under a different social contract, one that deprecates grilled cheese.
I love the feel of blowjobs in the morning.
266: I don't think that's a bad reason, necessarily. But the reciprocity issue then becomes important. I think then the question becomes why is she comfortable with you being submissive to her and not vice versa? Trust issues come into play.
But they're working under a different social contract, one that deprecates grilled cheese.
THAT'S UNAMURCAN
270: I think I've mentioned the wedding I attended that involved so much repetition of this verse I wanted to scream. I'm pretty sure there's another verse in there about husbands submitting to their wives, but it doesn't get as much play.
I started off with odd ideas
You know, I've always though that calling it sucking dick is one of your more problematical category errors for the beginner.
being submissive
I have trouble making sense of this. If my johnson is between your teeth, you're the one in charge.
You know, I've always though that calling it sucking dick is one of your more problematical category errors for the beginner.
Not as problematical as blowjob.
P.S. Can't believe I'm the first to claim this POTUS pseud in this thread. Too on the nose?
276: are you thinking of the next verse? (Which is "love", not "submit").
Not as problematical as blowjob.
First do no harm.
Apo, your ability to cite chapter and verse is laudable.
Too on the nose?
You're doing it wrong.
It has to be said that there's no small amount of socio-cultural baggage around grilled cheese sandwiches that just doesn't apply to discussions of your standard salami sandwich. I can easily imagine relationships where lots of sandwich-making discussion was possible, but where the recipe book would slam shut when grilled cheese was mentioned, merely because the cultural associations are so strong. We still don't have very much information from Ichabod's friend about exactly how the "Can has grilled cheese?" "DO NOT WANT!" discussions have gone down in the past. Was this 10 discussions or 3? Were they in the context of a meal in progress? Were the dishes clean, and the socks picked up before the discussion began? What's the couple's understanding on looking at cooking magazines and videos? It's just hard to speculate on what's going on here.
It's just hard. (To speculate on what's going on here...)
284: Despite living in the commie, secular part of NC, I still get the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses coming to the door regularly. The ability to cite scripture makes the encounters about 10 times more entertaining. They're always surprised.
I don't find it hard to speculate at all, minne.
279: The blowing is the function performed by the recipient, not the donor.
That's why I dislike the term - it implies orgasm, but while I do rather like a grilled cheese sandwich, it's pretty much an aperitif, not a whole meal.
289: Well, okay, but to speculate with any sense of the actual issue involved. "It's disgusting" can be read a lot of different ways. We don't know anything about what her assumptions are, or what specifically disgusts her. Yes, we can speculate about a number of reasons why "It's disgusting" would or would not be a valid way for her to look about it, but most of those speculations would probably be wrong.
Oh, what am I saying? That's the whole reason for this blog.
To the anti-DTMFA crowd, I pose the question: how do you feel about going outside the relationship for grilled cheese? If it's only grilled cheese—which is widely and cheaply available from commercial purveyors—and no other foodstuff, that would seem to lessen the chance of bringing home food-borne illnesses, or of the cook showing up later with a basket of little muffins you're expected to pay for.
294: I think you should discuss this with your partner.
That's the whole reason for this blog.
It's not the whole reason!
Don't forget the pedantry, obscure/inside references, academic wankery, UMC navel gazing, troll baiting, swipple reassurance....
And cock jokes.
Also Minnie is right: There's a vast difference between a low pressure getting to know the person you love type of discussion and a conversation in which one person is obviously trying to maneuver the other person into changing their mind. A lot of people (mostly men) simply don't understand the difference, and some who do get the distinction think they can pass off the latter as the former.
If Ms. NoGCS has been subjected to repeated iterations of what is de facto begging and whining dressed up as respectful conversation there's no doubt as to why she won't budge. In that case he'd be doing her a massive favor by leaving.
294/295/297: I actually think the best approach would be to raise the issue in terms of grilled cheese. "Honey, you know I love you sandwiches, but I'm just wondering if you'd mind if I occasionally purchased one from a vendor on the street?" Then, at the end of the conversation, once you've reached some sort of agreement, you can safely explain the metaphor.
Judging interest in the post topics of the past two days:
Insects: 3 comments
Guantanamo: 51 comments
Pistol-packing Christians: 64 comments
Country music: 104 comments
Weed removal: 150 comments
Blow jobs: 300 and rising.
Has the unfoggedbot been decommissioned?
I think you should discuss this with your partner.
But if they're not around when the opportunity arises, you should be aware that fidelity is not without its consequences.
A glimpse into one man's thought process on "to comment, or not to comment."
Insects: What is this, "Wild Kingdom"?
Guantanamo: Yes, we all wish they'd get rid of it, too.
Pistol-packing Christians: Funny, but not ha-ha funny.
Country music: Wow, we must all be pretty busy. Notice how nobody used that as an excuse to start posting their own mixes?
Weed removal: Can't people just write to Home & Garden about this stuff?
Blowjobs: Some poor bastard is having trouble getting his meat masticated! And there's grilled cheese involved. SQUEEEE!
Has the unfoggedbot been decommissioned?
For now. The Twisted OSCAR library is somewhat buggy so it kept going offline after several weeks and I seemed to be the only one using it anyway. I sort of have half-baked plans to rewrite it in Ruby using XMPP.
Minne: "It's disgusting" can be read a lot of different ways. We don't know anything about what her assumptions are, or what specifically disgusts her.
Actually, having caught up on this thread, we do know what disgust her. She's disgusted by the idea of sperm getting in between her teeth.
She (or rather the BF) is describing a phobic reaction. Since it's a specific image it sounds like she got hung up on it at some point (I'd imagine she got the idea stuck in her head as teen) and it became, er, burned into her head. And it drives the BF crazy because it's that one missing piece, when she sounds like a er, goer otherwise. She's so phobic she can't even talk about it which closes the feedback loop of driving the BF crazy.
I think most of this other stuff such as Di described might be relevant in similar situations, but in this situation, you have a simple and difficult to resolve problem.
max
['Not much to be done about it, I think, if she won't try.']
This is getting really close to a post I have partially written, wondering to what degree the average not-Unfogged-level-of-introspective guy who gets married is prepared for his wife's body to change and age over the years. In other words, there are plenty of 25 year old straight males who voice disgust over 40 year old female bodies, and yet want to live the one permanent partner married fantasy. I haven't quite made this question sufficiently interesting to myself yet, which is why it's still partially written. And this comment is probably a further nail in its coffin.
As your expectations for yourself change, so do your expectations for a partner.
Plus, 40 year old men understand that 25 year old women are CRAZY and not as good in bed as 40 year old women.
She's disgusted by the idea of sperm getting in between her teeth.
That's togolosh's ex.
Now will, don't forget that the crazy ones rock in the sack
My friend who introduced me to Jammies used to live with him in college. When he made a grilled cheese sandwich for himself, she'd sneak up and pounce on it with a cookie cutter, and leave him with a snowman or christmas tree shaped sandwich
This comment disturbs me.
308: Yes, but there are plenty of crazy 40 year olds. Or 36 year olds. Fellaz.
Way back in 218: What are the acceptable reasons not to marry the other ones?
Look, you can opt not to marry someone for any goddamn reason you want. And to be clear (again): I don't think he should just "get over it", or pretend it's not an issue. If it's an issue for him, it's an issue for him, and they need to either work it out or separate. I'm skeptical about his claims of having tried in good faith to work it out, but that's neither here nor there. I'm just also skeptical about the commitment level of someone for whom this would be a dealbreaker. Somehow it seems to me that a lack of blowjobs isn't the most trying thing that's going to occur in the course of a marriage, and if he's got trouble getting through this then he'd have a hell of a lot more trouble with other things later on anyway. But, clearly I'm an outlier here and most people seem to think this is a bigger deal than I do, so. (I've got something of the opposite problem, personally.)
Plus, 40 year old men understand that 25 year old women are CRAZY
I try not to generalize based just on Bad Old GF.
But yes.
I surveyed Bob down the hall and he says women aged 18-34 are better in the sack 25-35% of the time than women aged 35-50, but also less interesting than such women 35-40% of the time.
I've got something of the opposite problem, personally.
Your wife won't stop giving you blowjobs? You should leave her.
There are over six billion people on Earth; the person you're with right now isn't such a special snowflake that you should have to cede one of the most common sexual practices there is. Go find somebody else; women who'll give blowjobs aren't a scarce commodity.
Easy for you to say, apparently. You're damn lucky you've found so many possible matches for you in the world. I haven't. The average person knows how many people in a lifetime? Not 6 billion. Out of the thousands we do meet, how many are of the correct gender and sexual identity, are single and sane, have compatible values, compatible desires about kids, are able to accept you, and you them, and dozens of other things? Those are a scarce commodity.
Sometimes I cannot figure out why you people go presidential.
311: I completely agree with your whole comment. It seems like this guy has created a big issue out of a minor one, and the way he's handling it doesn't bode well for how he'll handle the routine problems of marriage.
314: I'm guessing BL is less interested in eating grilled cheese sandwiches than his partner is in making them. I can relate, as I'd much rather make my lover a grilled cheese sandwich than have one myself.
You're damn lucky you've found so many possible matches for you in the world.
And yet I've only married two of them, one of which didn't work. Getting unmarried--even in the most friendly, cooperative circumstances imaginable--was easily the most unhappy time of my entire life. Which is my point: this woman isn't giving him something he very much wants in a relationship, so don't marry her.
And the corollary: there are, as this thread shows, men out there for whom not getting their cheese grilled isn't a big deal. She's going to be happier over the long haul with one of them.
I'm guessing BL is less interested in eating grilled cheese sandwiches than his partner is in making them. I can relate, as I'd much rather make my lover a grilled cheese sandwich than have one myself.
Why can't I find a special snowflake like this?
I sort of have half-baked plans to rewrite it in Ruby using XMPP.
Oh this should be amusing.
323: I am such a snowflake, Di!
Sometimes I cannot figure out why you people go presidential.
I, for one, should have picked a reasonably Google-proof handle a long time ago, but never bothered. So I go presidential whenever it's something I badly don't want attached to my CV.
In fact, last summer, I was briefly dating a guy who was as obsessed with making grilled cheese for me as I was for him, so it was always a sort of game with us. Fine, I will let you make me a grilled cheese, but then, you have to let me make one for you. It was cute.
as I'd much rather make my lover a grilled cheese sandwich than have one myself, laydeez.
. I'm just also skeptical about the commitment level of someone for whom this would be a dealbreaker. Somehow it seems to me that a lack of blowjobs isn't the most trying thing that's going to occur in the course of a marriage, and if he's got trouble getting through this then he'd have a hell of a lot more trouble with other things later on anyway.
I'm not sure this follows. There are plenty of things that would be a dealbreaker in a dating situation that we might expect a committed couple to weather.
If my johnson is between your teeth, you're the one in charge.
There's the whole kneeling imagery, too.
Went to visit the PO Box (not a euphemism) and had some more thoughts. Pace The Other Side post, what would this problem sound like from the Headless Horseman's GF's perspective? I'm going to speculate:
"I've been dating this great guy for 2.5 years, and he really loves me and I love him. Sometimes I wonder if our sex life is okay. We do it all -- fisting, bondage, watersports, you name it -- except for blowjobs, which I've just never liked giving. They disgust me because [I'm paranoid about sperm in my teeth/I don't like the mouthfeel of a penis/My last boyfriend rubbed it on my nose/etc]. He's asked me to blow him a few times in the last couple of years, and I've explained that I didn't like it, and he's accepted that. Given that I'm game for everything else, it doesn't seem like it should be that big a deal. Could he have some deep craving for blow jobs that he's refusing to share with me? I know virtually all men like receiving them, and Dan Savage says it's standard in any sexual relationship, but he doesn't seem to mind much, so it can't be a big deal, right?
this woman isn't giving him something he very much wants in a relationship, so don't marry her
I agree with the general "if it's important to you, don't pretend it isn't" advice, but everyone has to decide what compromises to make in any relationship. Some of your comments (and others' -- I'm just picking on you) read more like: sandwich compatibility is a dealbreaker for me, so it should be for everyone, not just this dude.
That wasn't actually the best apo comment to refer to, but you get the gist.
314: not that so much. (So I guess it's not really the opposite problem.) She just thinks that if she makes the sandwich big enough and cheesy-enough, it will be a satisfying meal in its own right. With no tomato soup on the side or anything. And that if she wants to cook that instead of pot roast a few times a week, I should be happy about that. And I've explained that grilled cheese is a great snack, and occasionally an okay meal (though not really the healthiest thing you can eat), but it's really not my favorite thing on the menu. And we both love pot roast! Which she tends to take as a complaint about the quality of her cheese sandwiches, which isn't how it's intended. So she looks for other recipes ("maybe with a different bread? Or bacon?"), and, look, I appreciate the effort but it's just not my favorite dish. (And look, there's plenty of pot roast too--I don't mean this as a complaint. There's just more grilled cheese than I'm really interested in. Sometimes I get full.)
But this has been going on for about twelve years now, so it's not about to break up our relationship. She's just invested in being a good cook, I think, and is stuck with the idea that a quality grilled cheese is an essential part of that. It's not upsetting, but it does sometimes trigger an odd "would you please stop it with all the damn blowjobs?!" response.
331: Not to pile on, but I was getting that vibe, too, though I don't think apo intended it. Not giving blowjobs when you don't want to give blowjobs isn't a sign of being a selfish lover, particularly, though it might make you an unsuitable partner for someone who likes them.
pwned by togolosh about intimate details of my own life. damn.
Why can't I find a special snowflake like this?
There's two right here on this thread...
I suspect that we (the cheese-grilling elite) are more common than most people suspect. The first man I met who admitted to me that he loved grilling a cheese sandwich for a woman was a gay guy. Couldn't stand the thought of P-i-V sex and found romantic love for a woman inconceivable, but his description of the joys of cunnilingus was pure poetry. Made all the weirder by the fact that his boyfriend was sitting right next to him, and all the more uncomfortable by the fact that sitting next to me was a woman who I very much wanted to serve a grilled cheese sandwich. And a whole roasted buffalo.
325: And yet, still no snow in Chicago....
333: This makes sense to me. Oral sometimes feels like a cop-out if it's being used as a replacement for fucking or doing other things, whether you're on the receiving end (oh no oral sex again instead of fucking?) or on the giving end (oh crap, s/he just wants more oral.).
329.2: To put it another way, there's a reason five-star generals don't use the blowjob as a means of expressing authority.
330 is very funny.
And yet, still no snow in Chicago....
It's a big place. Have you tried Craigslist?
everyone has to decide what compromises to make in any relationship
Of course. I maintain, though, that different expectations and wants around sex and finances, in particular, tend to turn destabilizing and toxic over time. Good luck to anybody who chooses those fields for their compromises.
Not giving blowjobs when you don't want to give blowjobs
...is perfectly healthy and normal. Refusing to ever give them to a partner who does want them? That is not a recipe for happy relationship.
There's the whole kneeling imagery, too.
I get that for sure. But there are other ways of serving grilled cheese. (Just as there are ways of serving a grilled-cheese-equivalent that don't involve sitting on the provider's face--as much as I, personally, love serving said equivalent in said manner.)
322LAnd the corollary: there are, as this thread shows, men out there for whom not getting their cheese grilled isn't a big deal. She's going to be happier over the long haul with one of them.
see
330:We do it all -- fisting, bondage, watersports, you name it -- except for blowjobs
May not be trivial to find her perfect match.
Quick, without getting Presidential, how many here are into watersports? How many of the guys enjoy getting fisted?
I peed on a guy once because he asked me to, but we both decided it wasn't very interesting. I've never been much into trial-and-error fetish seeking, but eh, there was no harm done.
343: Sure. But it really shouldn't come as a surprise that it can feel submissive (especially if one didn't find it pleasant and were doing it just for the other person's pleasure, which sounds...wait for it... awfully submissive.), even when the individual act itself is not.
Why can't I find a special snowflake like this?
I don't know from direct experience, but from the chatting I've done, most of my guy friends prefer giving over receiving. I suggest you look among the DFH.
Nobody's ever asked me to pee on them. I can't decide if I'm glad of that or not.
I've never been much into trial-and-error fetish seeking.
With some of the more elaborate and/or detail minded fetishes, you do have to wonder how the person worked out the details at first. Iterative improvement, I suspect.
Huh, looks like the old movie thread has petered out for some reason.
What about finances? Mismatches on how much to spend, how to defer gratification, how to handle debt. Especially decisions on where to spend-- any misalignment in status interest will turn out to be expensive and generate defensive responses.
He spends too much on cars, she spends too much on clothes.
from the chatting I've done
Always good to have a topic ready for those conversational lapses at the office party.
347: Yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to deny/minimize feelings of submission around grilled cheese of any kind. Obviously I am still somewhat defensive about that past relationship and the issues we had (including but not at all limited to this one).
344: Too late; I am already presidential. For me, surfing (while clothed) and eating in the park are decent fantasy material, but not of the sort that I enjoy acting out.
348: See, you're not even really trying!
353: You mean you've never discussed sexual proclivities with a room full of near strangers? The stranger the better, in some ways.
Mismatches on how much to spend, how to defer gratification, how to handle debt.
Tantric sex with prostitutes???
I can't believe no one has yet made a "man doth not live by bread alone" joke, a loaves-and-fishes joke or a "change these stones into bread" joke. The restraint moves me to tears.
People will tell you anything. I'm always amazed. But yes. At Ultimate parties (and weddings) I used to bring up the game of offering choices that always immediately devolved into sexual preferences. "Giving or receiving" was a standard pair and giving was the more common answer. Yes, strangers and passersby would be drawn in and tell us all the most personal stuff.
Giving isnt about selflessness. It is about power.
misalignment in status interest
That was one issue between me and the ex-wife. Ironically I've since adjusted towards her position, though it's more a matter of social camouflage than of desire. Simply realizing that some level of social camouflage was necessary in getting me where I want to go and tolerable enough that the inconvenience is worth it was a big post-divorce therapy insight. I think most people figure that out in middle school, but I'm special 'n shit.
357: I'm waiting for the right person to just fall into my lap?
most of my guy friends prefer giving over receiving
This is pretty common (though I suspect more commonly reported than actually occurring). I couldn't say that I like one more than the other. Apples and oranges, really.
No watersports experience, but I don't think I could keep a straight face if urine was involved. I'm pretty sure it would just seem ridiculous.
re: 362
Someone I dated was really into the grilled-cheese making, it was the primary focus of her cookery. She definitely got off on something about the role: the power she had, a certain objectification in which she was complicit, and she was really into dicks. The whole attraction, for her, was definitely all about some complex power dynamic in which she was both being objectified and the objectifier, both the exhibitionist and the person looking. It was definitely not about selflessly pleasing her partner. If she had an audience, or could see herself, even better.
I'm waiting for the right person to just fall into my lap?
You have the correct location, but wrong action.
See? Di is willing to cede power to others, being the submissive that she is.
apowned
I purposely referred to his other dealbreaker, could have referred to a comment number, trying for a continuation. Just saying that finances is as convoluted as sex for an external manifestation of odd inner desires. Less fun to get people to confess to, but sometimes just as revealing.
Now, upstairs, I have this collection of etchings....
366: I don't think I could keep a straight face if urine was involved.
Sounds like it would make a great icebreaker, then.
DS made me laugh out loud, without the direct use of watersports.
370: "Hey there, good-looking. I noticed you peed on my shoe. Can I buy you a drink? What? Oh, I'm laughing with you, not at you."
Just as there are ways of serving a grilled-cheese-equivalent that don't involve sitting on the provider's face--as much as I, personally, love serving said equivalent in said manner.
Few women seem to enjoy sitting on a guy's face, which I think sucks, since I like the submissive symbolism there. Very few women are dominant in the bedroom. (Though many are bossy outside it).
I distrust people who make a big abstract deal about whether a sexual position is "submissive". Romantic relationships involve a ton of mutual dominance and submission, or give and take in milder terms, and it seems silly to be outraged by yielding to your partner for ten minutes.
365: My plan exactly! Works great, doesn't it?
I tried the online dating site thing and found it excruciating. I did get some interesting stories out of it, though. Stories I'll only tell if I'm hammered.
There's the whole kneeling imagery, too.
But it's mostly imagery. I've actually never received a grilled cheese from a kneeling waitress server cook. I'm not saying they don't happen, but it's probably no more common than facials, and has not much more relevance for IRL relationships.
Plus it's a pretty lousy angle.
I distrust people who make a big abstract deal about whether a sexual position is "submissive".
Do actual people with whom you might be interested in sex actually make a big deal of this?
I just cannot image a woman that I might be interested in having sex with saying "I dont do it that way bc it is too submissive."
"Hey there, good-looking. I noticed you peed on my shoe. Can I buy you a drink? What? Oh, I'm laughing with you, not at you.Were you circumcised by Lefty the mohel?"
Right, but the question wasn't "is it objectively submissive" but "why might someone find it to be so?" There's plenty of cultural baggage around grilling sandwiches.
And it is indeed a lousy angle.
I don't think I could keep a straight face if urine was involved.
I bet you have a great gay face, though.
Few women seem to enjoy sitting on a guy's face
Is this generally true? I don't have enough experience to draw conclusions either way.
Just wondering.
There's plenty of cultural baggage around grilling sandwiches.
No doubt. I kind of feel like, if you can't let go of that* (at least let go enough to get off) while you're having sex with someone, then perhaps you shouldn't be having sex with that someone. I realize it's not that simple, and can be easy coming from a white male, but still.
When I was still devoutly Catholic, it didn't get in the way of enjoying whatever sex I was engaged in - might have caused me to self-limit, but if I decided that I was going to engage in oral sex (whether intending to confess later or justifying rationalizing it some other way), I wasn't going to get all hung up on "Jesus says no blowjobs!" Tragically, my equally-Catholic HS GF wasn't always able to do this, which broke my heart (not that she wouldn't blow me; that she'd sometimes get hung up about coming herself).
* And by "that" I mean cultural baggage in general - body issues, biology issues, image issues, whatever
Do actual people with whom you might be interested in sex actually make a big deal of this?
no, but sometimes people on the internet do.
Is this generally true? I don't have enough experience to draw conclusions either way.
Well, I haven't yet had sex with over half the woman on earth, but my experience is that it is true.
Of course, dominant and submissive in bed is a funny thing -- it's often the case that the top does most of the work, and the bottom gets to take it easy, so who is dominant? I think women are quite aware of this. Face sitting is a good example -- the top is straining their knees and back and doing a lot of extra work up there, while the guy on the bottom is lying there comfortably.
381: I think we're in general agreement, but I think the human race would have died out if it never had sex before coming to terms with its cultural baggage.
it's often the case that the top does most of the work, and the bottom gets to take it easy, so who is dominant?
Dominance isn't about who does the work so much as it is about who's in control.
374: Quick, someone find a hammer!
Face sitting is a good example -- the top is straining their knees and back and doing a lot of extra work up there, while the guy on the bottom is lying there comfortably
Indeed. Louis would rather mutually exchange fromage chaud while I'm on top, but if I have to be on top, I'd rather serve without receiving. The balance and support issues interfere with the unfettered enjoyment of my warm Brie, to the point that despite Louis' best efforts, my cheese doesn't necessarily get grilled that way.
If someone's making me a sandwich, I need to be able to relax completely, not worry about not breaking their nose.
The whole project of simultaneous orgasm is largely lost on me. Apparently my body has some kind of automatic reaction to perceiving that my partner is about to come that says, "Oh no, you first! Please! Go ahead!" It can happen accidentally, but it's very rare. I think part of me is afraid I'll take much longer (probably true) and won't be able to finish in time and will be horribly disappointed.
387: I long thought it was a myth, but don't stop believing. When you find someone you can actually have one with, it really is just about the best thing ever.
386.2: If someone's making me a sandwich, I need to be able to relax completely, not worry about not breaking their nose.
Seriously. It is a lot of work.
Why do men like the sitting-on-the-face thing? I ask this not because I'm incredulous, but really: is it that the view from there is pleasing, that you don't have to move much, some combination of these things along with something else I'm not thinking of?
Why do men like the sitting-on-the-face thing?
I think it's 'cause it's subby.
Hey, who's the blogger of record for the asking of the mineshaft?
I think it's 'cause it's subby.
On the man's part? (Or the bottom's part, really, whether the bottom is male or female.)
Huh. I hadn't thought of that for some reason. So! Then such persons might also like bondage? And yet I have seen no such correlation.
I will say that I am pleased with partners who understand what m. leblanc and AWB were saying way upthread (174, 183) about the turn-on potentially involved in dominance or submission. Best that two partners switch these things around, of course.
391: Anyone, really. If you send a question to me over the weekend, use the ElizardB@hotmail.com address, not the one at unfogged.com. Mostly, just pick a blogger you want to answer the question (with the understanding that if it's Bob, you may end up waiting sometime.)
Huh. I hadn't thought of that for some reason. So! Then such persons might also like bondage? And yet I have seen no such correlation.
I think plenty of people like to be in slightly subby positions sometimes but not anything that actually rises to the level of bondage.
Indeed. Bondage is a particular thing, not generalized submission. I have some submissive impulses/fantasies, as well as the reverse, and tried having Louis tie me up once to see if I was into it. I hated it a lot. While I'm comfortable enough with him that I stuck it out until the event drew to a natural close, partially because I thought I might start enjoying it at some point, when he set me loose I was really angry at him. Quite unjustifiably, but very powerfully.
41
Sure. Sexual compatibility is important. But they've been together 2.5 years, which leads me to wonder if the issue is more long-term commitment. If she started making grilled cheese sandwiches tomorrow, would he suddenly find something else that just seemed like it would be a problem?
I agree with this. I just don't see lack of grilled cheese sandwiches being a dealbreaker if everything else is fine. Seems like maybe he is looking for things to pick on.
396: Yeah, I was just reflecting on that. Perhaps men who enjoy being subby for face-sitting have given themselves permission to be so, but allowing themselves to be tied up is just a step too far for them. I mean, being tied up doesn't have to entail leather and whips, for heaven's sake, but you'd think so, the way some people respond to the prospect.
Have we talked yet about the effect the watching of pron has on people's turn-on-o-meter? My last affair was with a man whose turn-ons clearly included enacting some of the things he'd seen in the pron he watched. That was ... fine, cute in a way, but would have become tired after a while. He wasn't stupid, and kind of knew this; the turn-ons were very ... gendered, in a way.
In light of 397, I should amend my 399 from "men who" to "people who." Sorry about that.
getting really turned on by a gentle, thoughtful, totally unoppressive partner of indeterminate gender performance would be nice and all that, I have been raised in a patriarchy, and want what I want, which is quite often not that gentle-equals business at all.
I don't buy that it's patriarchal socialization, I think it's natural (well, all psychological stuff has a cultural element, but you know). People like to be overwhelmed and lose themselves in sex, and being ravaged, etc. is a quick path to that. It helps to realize that being a bottom and being submissive are two different things -- lots of bossy bottoms out there.
I have some submissive impulses/fantasies, as well as the reverse
In Soviet Russia, submissive impulses/fantasies have YOU?
m.LB: I think it's 'cause it's subby.
I like the female kind of grilled cheese a lot (to the point of being a little ridiculous about it) including the face-sitting. I like the face sitting because I'd really rather lazily enjoy my meal while concentrating on it than having to think about my knees. (I have had my knees lock up while standing, after engaging in fun intercourse for about an hour. "Excuse me, dear, I need you to move, I have to fall face forward now.")
But then, I really do not understand this whole S & M thing. I can understand dominance in sense of being able to demand lots of sex now, but otherwise I don't see the point. If I actually like someone enough to have sex with them, dominating them seems entire contrary to the point. And being dominated tends to make me angry, so it mostly just doesn't even occur to me to think about it in those terms. Unless my partner at the time brings it up, which tends to result in weird looks crossing my face.
Why does face-sitting or kneeling or whatever necessarily have to be a dominant/submissive thing? Maybe if a person insists on it all the time, but it seems so crudely literal to interpret sexual positions that way generally. Aren't you supposed to, you know, mix it up?
I can understand dominance in sense of being able to demand lots of sex now, but otherwise I don't see the point
Being able to demand lots of sex now? That's very different. I would not be into that.
In my own experience, it's really as PGD put it: People like to be overwhelmed and lose themselves in sex, and being ravaged, etc. is a quick path to that.
I wouldn't confuse mild bondage with S&M. They are not the same at all. The former is about giving up control (with the understanding that you can say that it's not working, cut it out now); the latter goes further. Really not the same at all.
I don't view the frequent women's "being ravaged" fantasy as submissive at all. For the guy, it's serious physical labor jackhammering away for hours on end. If women fantasized about doing all the chores while the guy watched the game on TV, that would be submissive.
For the guy, it's serious physical labor jackhammering away for hours on end.
hours on end = 15 minutes straight?
406: Being ravaged involves being jackhammered, for hours on end, even?
Heh. Total breakdown of understanding here.
I hear you about the fact that serving a woman's (or a man's, for that matter) fantasy to be ravaged involves, well, a courtesy or service to her fantasy. Of course. That kind of thing is best done between partners who understand each other pretty well, unless two relative strangers get lucky in their understanding. I would never expect or demand it of a lover I didn't know pretty well. That would just probably not go well.
That's okay, Will. It happens to everyone, they say.
I've kind of come to dislike the pervasive influence that pron is starting to have on sexuality. Take the weird and artificial jacking-off-on-the-face thing; for porn it makes a kind of twisted sense as proof that Actual Sex Is Happening, I guess, but in real life it's weird and artificial and breaks the flow of things. I'm weirded-out when people ask me to actually do it.
Also the increasing pervasiveness of Being a Webcam Grrrl / Exotic Dancer / Escort as an additional source of income. This gets at my weirdly contradictory attitudes toward sex work, because I don't think shame-based approaches to that whole field are good at all, and yet... I think there's something Really Wrong when too many women feel compelled to turn to some form of it. And also, I guess, there's a prudish corner of me that wants Those Women to remain Out There rather than sitting across the dinner table from me. That second thing I do not like very much, but it's there.
But then, I really do not understand this whole S & M thing.
Dominance / submission games are basically a form of role-playing. They've got a special appeal in a society that increasingly shies away from actual dominance and submission in daily-life roles because generally speaking (within limits) taboo = hot. The more extreme S&M is an extension of that, I would say -- not something I could get into, because it's too elaborate and strikes me as robbing the proceedings of spontaneity -- but the dominance / submission thing isn't that hard to understand at all.
Jackhammering figures in precisely none of my fantasies. Yikes!
Well, occasionally I dream about a strong, manly man who would make the guys tearing up the sidewalk outside quiet down, but that's probably not the right kind of jackhammering.
I've kind of come to dislike the pervasive influence that pron is starting to have on sexuality. Take the weird and artificial jacking-off-on-the-face thing; for porn it makes a kind of twisted sense as proof that Actual Sex Is Happening, I guess, but in real life it's weird and artificial and breaks the flow of things. I'm weirded-out when people ask me to actually do it.
Yeah.
So, you actually sit across the table from people who do the Webcam Grrl/Etc. thing? And this is common? Yeah, well, I would not like that.
Dominance / submission games are basically a form of role-playing. They've got a special appeal in a society that increasingly shies away from actual dominance and submission in daily-life roles
This is exactly it. If I may continue in my confessional role: I spend way too much time having to be in control of things, on top of things, taking care of things. It's exhausting. Someone who's willing to help me let go of that, for a little while, is very much appreciated. The more elaborate forms are, no, not spontaneous, not mutually understanding. But in milder forms, my partner and I are speaking to each other not just sexually but in soul-form. We get that we might want someone else to be the caretaker, for this short time.
I'm sounding like far more of a proponent of bondage than I am, by the way. I just, ideally, wish for a partner who's not averse to grasping the release of control thing.
412: That is UN-Jackhammering! I dream of these men as well.
increasing pervasiveness
This, I find surprising, unless 'pervasive' means less than I think it does. Is sex work really a common way of making some money on the side these days? I suppose I wouldn't know if it was -- most of my friends are monogamously married, and past the peak age for sex workers.
Now, let's not bring the UN into it. They have enough on their plate already without having to jackhammer the commentariat.
That is UN-Jackhammering!
Blue helmets, black helicopters, what color are the jackhammers?
Gosh, now I'm provisionally embarrassed.
Rowr. I am unwilling to take blue helmets and black helicopters off the table.
I, for one, welcome our new pastel-helmeted overlords.
Josh, do you know something about XMPP of which I should be aware?
Xaqeline Massey Posey Paisley is more scary than she ever was in her pre-cyborg days.
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I hate hate hate Windows Vista. Should I try to move to Windows 7, or would that make a bad thing even worse?
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424: The general rule is that MS does it right on the third release, but in this case 7 seems a decent OS. Much better than Vista in any case.
421: Got it!
I will say that some part of the face-sitting desire is sub-by, at least for me - there's an element of "You will pleasure me now." But, mostly, it's really enveloping, it relieves me of any non-lingual responsibilities, and it's (usually) a pretty good angle*. So maybe 10% psychological, 90% physical.
* Also it relieves a bit of the stress of "Am I getting this right?" - she can shift a bit to redirect attention without getting into distracting stage-direction
Xaqeline Massey Posey Paisley is more scary than she ever was in her pre-cyborg days before she decided to stop using her slave name.
So, you actually sit across the table from people who do the Webcam Grrl/Etc. thing? And this is common?
People you'd never expect, either. I was having a drink not long ago with a female acquaintance on whom I was kind of sweet, and she just brought it up out of the blue. Could be that my city is more of a hotbed for this than some other places.
Huh. Thanks to El Pais, I just saw a pic of Berlusconi's semi-erect cock. DO NOT WANT.
Er, or does it belong to Czech ex-PM Topolanek? It is a mystery!
I hate hate hate Windows Vista. Should I try to move to Windows 7, or would that make a bad thing even worse?
I live in fear that I'll get a new job and they'll force me to use Vista and/or 7. Leaving XP is a total dealbreaker.
420: HWLABR
421: Got it!
Do tell!
388: Oh, it's worked before, and is nice. But the attempt to achieve it usually backfires, because if he senses I'm about to come and starts to let himself go, I will still probably need more time than he does. PIV orgasms take me a long time, especially with a new partner.
He Walks Like a Bright Rainbow, M/lls.
435: That can't be right. There's no "M" in "HWLABR".
Huh, apparently that's not right. He Was Like a Bearded Rainbow.
437: I thought maybe it was referencing the Cream song, but couldn't figure out how that related to "I, for one, welcome our new pastel-helmeted overlords."
Now I wonder where I got the idea that it was as you see in 435.
Frankly, I prefer that expansion.
How do people handle the issue of inappropriate empathy? That is, being unable to turn off the little voice that says something is going to feel as unpleasantly stretchy/painful/whatever for your partner as it does for you? Even if he's reassuring you that it doesn't, and he likes it, and you should not imagine that he feels the way you do?
This was an ongoing process with me in a past relationship, and gradually got better because our communication was pretty darn good. But it started all over again with the next relationship. Like: Ow, this would give me terrible foot cramps. I can't possibly keep leaning...ow, he's definitely going to get foot cramps. Oh my God, I can't do this to him. Cramps feel so awful....
Made worse by the fact that intimacy for me is much preferable without any inner monologue.
The thing about face sitting is that it opens you up nicely. I don't enjoy it because of the dominance aspect (though I do kind of enjoy the humor value in looking down at a disembodied head), but because he has access to all of the right places and there's something about kneeling that makes things tight in the right places, if that makes any sense at all. And I don't find it tiring in the least; it may not be quite as comfortable as lying on my back or the like but there's a nice headboard to grip on to and all of that.
Being ravaged involves being jackhammered, for hours on end, even?
Heh. Once, in the throes of passion I breathlessly implored UNG to "dominate me.". He proceeded to jackhammer for 5 mminutes or so and was thoroughly perplexed to discover that this was not what I'd meant by "dominate.". Men are from Mars or something.
Sometimes in order to teach someone what you want from being dominated by them, you have to dominate them first.
440 is causing my imagination to fail in an epic manner. Foot cramps?
Or is that a euphemism?
One of the things that really surprised me when my sex life finally developed was how underwhelmed I was by, um, grilled cheese. It was nice enough, but definitely not as spectacular as it seems to be for a lot of people. Other things were much better.
443: Yeah, I played the dominant role for years -- I guess I should have been providing simultaneous narration so he would pick up my vocab for the dynamics.
445: The first time I had grilled cheese, that was my reaction too -- "So what's the big deal supposed to be?" The second time I had grilled cheese, I was like, "Oh, wow, now I get it!" It may be a matter of asking to have the grilled cheese prepared differently, or (now that the first restaurant has closed) trying out a different restaurant or two.
I have to finish a blow job with a condom, even though I'll start one without. I start to choke hard when sperm shoots into my mouth. Choking and gagging kind of ruin the experience for my partner who doesn't like to see me in obvious discomfort.
439: Now I wonder where I got the idea that it was as you see in 435
I first heard that it was "She Was Like a Bearded Rainbow" back in the early '70s, and always just assumed that that was correct. And my assumed interpretation was along the lines of this thread only reversed (final connection to "our new pastel-helmeted overlords" left as an exercise for the reader, don't overthink it). However, it appears that there is some decent evidence that it was "She Walks Like a Bearded Rainbow", not the least of which is Jack Bruce's website. For bright/bearded, you're on you own, neb.
445. Yeah. But sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
447: Whatever works for you and George, of course, but that seems like a disruptive (and expensive) solution. Would it not be easier just to have him warn you when he's just about to fell the cherry tree, then have him have him cross the Delaware on your chest?
445: I think there's room for a lot more variety in grilled cheese than in some other items on the menu; doesn't mean it's necessarily ever going to be your favorite thing, but it's heavily dependent on the chef.
Back to something Brock said way upthread, about Mrs. Landers being invested in her self-image as a good cook: that's always struck me as a real epistemological problem. Any feedback you get is from people with a strong interpersonal interest in making you feel good -- short of being absolutely terrible in the kitchen, to the point that people were visibly unhappy or unable to finish their food, how would you know how good it was? I thought this through ages ago, and ended up deciding that there really was no way of knowing at any level more detailed than 'good enough to keep your current partner content.' So I gave up worrying about it.
I was wrong upthread when I said Thai food was a well known euphemism for clown make up. Really it is a euphemism for Sex with ducks
451.2: Right. And given that the kitchen can be the poster child for mixed metaphors self-fulfilling performance anxiety negative feedback loops, this is one area to really not overthink. best to go limbic and leave the driving to your inner early furry.
strong interpersonal interest in making you feel good not discouraging future grilled cheese sandwiches.
450: The British are coming!
454: I was crying with you, not because of you.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I98iyEf5a7E
Almost old-skool 'daisy-age' sounding ...
>
re: 458
And (coincidentally) seems to have a 'making cheese' lyric.
451: Another oddity in judging cheese grilling skill is that there is so much variation in what people like in their sandwich. I friend once told me he liked his a little toothy. (!) One could get very good at grilling cheese for one customer but be entirely lost on the next one.
To my mind, the best chefs are really the ones who can quickly sense what the patron wants and adjust the meal accordingly. But this is a skill that not only requires empathy, but a wide range of experience. Many chefs out there would be embarrassed to admit that history.
Interestingly, everything I just said applies not just to grilled cheese, but nearly every form of human interaction.
Foot cramps?
Naw, I was mostly trying to pick an example to show that it was truly about discomfort, not being grossed out or whatever.
But yes. Imagine being a long and lanky type in a smallish bed, with a partner who likes to receive grilled cheese with you in, ah, a crouching type position. Not guaranteed to result in foot cramps, but if you're prone to them....
451: I think it is totally possible to have the discussion before or while actually grilling. What do you want on your sandwich? Is that enough butter, or should I use more? Etc. After the fact, yeah, "How was the sandwich?" is not going to be a very helpful question.
450: (and expensive) solution
Especially given the whole 30 goddamned dicks thing.
462 might want to check out 442 on the inefficacy of communication in certain situations.
450: George is a neat freak who does not like to make a mess. Washing sheets at $2.25/load isn't cheap either. In any case, grilled cheese is rarely the only thing on the menu.
How 'bout I just anonymize that comment for you, Martha?
462 might want to check out 442 on the inefficacy of communication in certain situations.
462 was presuming a partner who is not a complete fucking moron. 442 involved no such presumption.
466: Yeah, you probably should.
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought 462 might involve a man. In a state of passion. The presumption that such is a 'complete fucking moron' is certainly rebuttable, but there's going to have to be some evidence . . .
Washing sheets at $2.25/load isn't cheap either.
per load indeed!
when I was dating someone who was (also) a heroin addict, it used to take him a really long time to come, and I would frequently give him blowjobs that lasted a whole hour. now I look back and think, what the fuck was I doing? but it's basically symbolic of our relative power in the relationship, because he was withdrawn and undemonstrative and I always felt like I loved him more than he loved me. seriously, an hour? I was high, I guess, but still. I would get hella bored.
471: Plus you have to spend money on drying time.
George is a neat freak who does not like to make a mess. Washing sheets at $2.25/load isn't cheap either.
I wonder what people generally do about cleanup after a full meal (without a, um, bib)? Hillary is averse to seepage and insists a T-shirt or somesuch be placed between her thighs immediately after withdrawal (and I mean immediately: if a shirt is not close at hand, great efforts must be made to reach one without slippage) and then sleeps with it there. No big deal, but this has always seemed a little ridiculous to me.
To other folks do this? Do people just accept the seepage and deal with the wet spot? Do ladies retire to the toilet for a few minutes to let the majority of the matter make its exit?
lots of bossy bottoms out there.
Mine's always like "Sit HERE! Now THERE!"
474: We do nothing! Does this make me a slattern? I mean, a post-boffing pee is generally called for, but other than that . . .
474: There's no wet spot generated in the course of dining, before the meal is completed?
475: You have to make allowances for the fact that it's Heebie's ass.
477: Sure there's some moisture in the entire meal, otherwise it would be inedible, but my impression (not that I've measured) is that the greatest volume comes in the last dollop of cream.
478: And so I'm quite obedient.
470 I figure if he is so overcome by passion that he can't communicate "that's good". Or "a little more x" we're probably good.
Giving direction on the topic of domination, on the other hand, kinda defeats the purpose in media res.
I'm sure PGD is speaking from experience, and that he dated a woman who defined "dominate me" as "jackhammer away". Women like all kinds of weird shit.
Domination either requires that the dominant partner is crazy-good at sex to begin with, or that you've been together a while and knows you really well. There's nothing worse than a dominant partner who doesn't know what gets you off.
I do get anxious, however, about having sex with someone the first time and treating it like show-and-tell. It can be sexy and fun if your partner is also into show-and-tell, but, as a sort-of subby girl, it's a little hard to get off while giving directions.
There's nothing worse than a dominant partner who doesn't know what gets you off.
New mouse-over.
I'm my bottom's bottom.
New mouseover. Or a great t-shirt for Pride Week?
The bottom of my bottom is my top.
Do ladies retire to the toilet for a few minutes to let the majority of the matter make its exit?
There are expelling movements you can make with your vaginal muscles that will get most everything out, all but eliminating any seepage. Basically the reverse of a Kegel. Easily done on the toilet when you go for the post-coital don't-want-no-UTI pee.
U! T! I! Pee! You ain't got no alibi, you grody!
My bottom's bottom is
My bottom, too,
And my other bottom's bottom is
My bottom, too,
And if I had another bottom
He would call my bottom "bottom,"
But my bottom still would be
My bottom, too.
I don't get UTIs from sex anymore. I got them the first year after I lost my virginity, so bad I would howl in pain, but never again since then. (Was I using soap at the time? I mighta been.)
(Also, I was dating a filthy European. I think that had something to do with it.)
491: Common, apparently! I mean the got-em-at-first-but-no-more. Older people called it "the honeymoon disease" or something.
I used to get them all the time too. In college we joked that my nickname was "Cutie", ie CUTI, where the C stood for Chronic.
that sucks, because they are so very, very painful. I've only ever had a few, randomly and long after becoming sexually active.
Giving direction on the topic of domination, on the other hand, kinda defeats the purpose in media res.
It's almost like you've never heard the phrase "pushy bottom" or "topping from below".
If you get UTIs a lot, you can try taking cranberry extract pills to prevent them. It's supposed to prevent the microorganisms from sticking to the epithelial cells in the urinary tract.
498: Kobe thinks that sounds more like something akin to a Fleshlight than anything else.
My power bottom practically has rocket lift-off powers when I toot.
And again to 498: Also, is that AC or DC?
I've only heard AC/DC mean bisexual.
AC/DC
Is "You've been . . . THUNDERSTRUCK" the worst possible thing to say after sex?
Older people called it "the honeymoon disease" or something.
e.g., my mother, when I had a UTI about five months after shiv & I were married. Oh, giggle, giggle. The UTI wasn't all that bad after the first few days, but it took about a month afterward for my bladder to get back to normal.
If you get UTIs a lot, you can try taking cranberry extract pills to prevent them. It's supposed to prevent the microorganisms from sticking to the epithelial cells in the urinary tract.
Or you could just, like, drink cranberry juice.
Or you could just, like, eat cranberries.
Or you could just, like, go crazy.
497: Okay, well defeats my purpose then.
504: "I have a confession to make..." *long pause*
Sure I've mentioned that one before.
Variation: "I've heard that infected girls do it better. I've always wondered if it's true. Up for a second round?"
Is "You've been . . . THUNDERSTRUCK" the worst possible thing to say after sex?
514 actually meant to link to this. For historical reference.
nosflow, if you drink enough straight cranberry juice (which you can get at Trader Joe's) that might work, but your typical cranberry juice cocktail wouldn't be strong enough.
Isn't there a positive correlation between one of the spermicides commonly used on spermicidally lubricated condoms and incidence of UTIs? I seem to remember reading about a spike in the incidence of UTIs once spermicidal lubricants started being pushed in the 80s due to efficacy in killing/disabling the AIDS virus.
Responding to various*:
You came to me this morning
And you handled me like meat.
You'd have to be a man to know
How good that feels, how sweet.
My mirror twin, my next of kin,
I'd know you in my sleep.
And who but you would take me in
A thousand kisses deep?
-Leonard Cohen
edited for performance
*I'm only a couple hundred in because you people just can't stay out of my web-filter at work. At least the pornography wasn't Portuguese this time...