I think the only time I use "please" anymore is with Rory. And really, "please" has similar effect to using full name. "Please go clean your room now. Rory Margaret Kotimy!"
I am not friendly, but I am relentlessly polite and kind to strangers and tradespeople. I always try to bring a cart in from the parking lot at the grocery store, and say thank you to the sacker.
Because I seem to shop at a speed 2-5 times as fast as most others, I am always passing people in the aisles. Somehow "Excuse me" by itself feels too much like a command, and requires the additional "please" to change the grammar to supplication.
I suspect that is the key. Requests for help are usually in command-form, and take the "please" ending to emphasizr that they are not commands.
"Shut the door." "Turn out the lights." "Help me carry this." ...commands. We too often get around this with ridiculous questions:"Could you turn out the lights?"
I spent years in places that tried to make us conscious of our grammar and when we were being imperious, taught us to give commands, obey commands without question or hesitation, and be very aware of our language. Resistance and argument had separate times and protocols. To this day, I will obey any reasonable command.
"Please" is totally necessary.
No. It is almost inconcievable to me that I could tell a waitress:
"Bring me some more bread."
I don't think I could do it without a "please".
I suspect this is a regional thing. Here in the upper midwest we use please all the time, casually and without irony. Ordering in a coffee shop: "Hi, could I please have a thing and another thing." You could, as you suggest, do it without the "please" but with a polite tone and be just fine. I think it's good reminder phrase for politeness though. Otherwise people start retail conversations with "Give me a..." and that's just obnoxious.
Come to think of it, I almost never say "please." I phrase requests as questions: "Could you bring me some more bread?"
Come to think of it again, sometimes I do say "please" in the affirmative response to an offer. When the waiter at the diner asks me if I want my coffee topped off, I answer "Yeah, please."
I hope that all the times I say "thanks" make up for that.
"Shut the door." "Turn out the lights." "Help me carry this." ...commands. We too often get around this with ridiculous questions:"Could you turn out the lights?"
Maybe this is the key; I never issue commands. I always rephrase it with (ridiculous? me?) questions.
2: Is it really racist? This sounds like an old thread I must have missed. I assumed the origins were playing cards.
Wait! Are playing cards racist?
Is playing cards racist?
and say thank you to the sacker.
This is surely a requirement for a civilised society. I'd be tempted to punch out anybody I encountered not doing so.
I think I use please pretty relentlessly, except with people I know really well, where I revert to the question form, like Cyrus. Not saying please (or some phrase of similar effect), particularly when interacting with somebody providing a service, sounds appallingly arrogant to my ear.
Come to think of it, I almost never say "please." I phrase requests as questions: "Could you bring me some more bread?"
Exactly. Not "bring me some bread," but "when you get a chance, could you bring me some more bread?" To my ear, this sounds less demanding than "Please bring me some more bread."
Yeah, wow, when I try to imagine issuing a command, even with "please", it seems way more authoritarian than I would ever dream of being.
I do say please and still habitually say yes/no sir and yes/no ma'am to people I don't know personally. McManus and I seem to have very similar habits.
I'm with Di and Heebie -- while in theory I want to be polite, "Please" often makes a request sound rude to me, turning it into a parent-to-child or boss-to-underling tone. I preface a lot of requests with 'If you would', which sounds less affected in person than it does on the page.
8: I'm pretty sure he was joking. If he wasn't, then the expression's origins are innocent. (It doesn't come from cards either, though.)
"Please" tends to flow pretty naturally most of the time when I'm requesting something, but you're right that it's no big deal if you drop it. I think all that really needs to be avoided is placing any emphasis on "please", because insisting on your politeness conversely makes your request seem like more of a demand (it's soooo reasonable, and I'm being soooo polite, can't you just do this one little thing?). But so long as the word is a quiet presence at the end or beginning of your request, it has a subtle dignity.
When it comes to "thank you", the one Britishism I picked up from my upbringing and time in college is the tendency to say "cheers" instead of "thanks". It kind of works, but I'm pretty sure some people around here just think I'm very confused about what activities appropriately involve drinking.
I smell gender wars! REGULATORS, MOUNT UP!
I am with McManus and apostropher on this. It seems obnoxious not to say please.
Yeah, I remember an interaction many years ago with a Japanese co-worker whose English was good but not perfect, who once said to me, "Please pick me up at 7:00." I thought it was rude for a second before realizing that if you were learning English, you'd be told that you say "please" to be polite, when to really be polite you have to phrase requests as a question: "Could you pick me up at 7:00?"
I think the only context in which "please" doesn't feel rude is when it's in response to a question. "Would you like some more bread?" "Yes, please!"
The standard format I grew up with was the question AND "please" - in its most perfunctory form, "Please will you..." ("could you possibly..." might excuse the "please"). Saying, "Do this", and he doeth it is reserved for those under authority and having soldiers under them, at least in my world.
On a related topic, when did "Can I get..." start replacing "Could I have..." in American. It sounds hideously rude to my ear. My instictive response is, "Well, you might be able to get it if you asked politely."
16: I don't think it's gender, I think it's North/South, with Florida an honorary part of the Mid-Atlantic coast (and the Brits on their own track). Notice that Cyrus from Vermont is with us, as is emdash.
"yes/no ma'am"
I've had very mixed results with this habit. Some people are quite happy, others are a little pissed. There was a great thread with Teo in a laundromat discussing the proper use of "ma'am" that I can't quite seem to find.
"Sir" just goes utterly unrecognized by younger guys. They hear it said, and assume the preceding didn't apply to them. Counterproductive if you're trying to say "excuse me, sir".
21: Chalk it up to dialectical differences -- it doesn't sound rude at all to me. There's a shade of difference between 'get' and 'have' that makes 'Could I have' not quite make sense: 'have' is a steady state of possession, but 'get' is for obtaining something. If it's grating to you, it's grating, but it's not meant as rudeness.
I try to do both "please" AND a question. Like "would you please get me another beer while you're up?"
Often I forget, and just announce the wonderful idea I just had with no politeness at all. "Oh! Get me another beer!". Then in those cases I try to remember to add many pleases and with sugars to the end of it, but I'm fairly sure it sounds a little off that way.
I think I say "pretty please" a lot. I think it annoys me when other people don't say please in their requests to me, too, although I also don't think I notice it all that often.
Wait, I say please. I'm fairly abject when speaking to servers and bartenders, so I lard my addresses with all the markers thereof, as in, "When you have a sec, could I have some more X, please?" head-tilt-smile-smile-smile.
Just to bring an international perspective: Danish does not have a word for either please or Thank you. For some reason foreigners often think that we are rude and obnoxious. Words fail us.
24: I don't know Po-Mo's region offhand. If he's a northerner, there goes that theory.
||
Biked into work this morning. Worked great, barring the last half mile which was interrupted by construction, crowds of people getting off the PATH train, and one-way streets. Once I figure out that last bit of the route, I'm golden. An hour and 20 minutes, even with walking my bike half a mile at the end, so an hour and ten with no fitness improvement, just a better route.
Of course, the weather is fucking with me. "No really, cool bright sunny days with gentle breezes are perfectly normal New York weather. Honest!"
|>
24: I'm a spy for the grays, sent up here to find out how to bring you northern effete liberals down, but I've been here for so long... I've forgotten which side I'm on. So confused, all that remains are "please" and "ma'am". And sweet tea, always sweet tea.
28: But Norwegian has a word for thank you. What happened to it in Danish?
I use "Thanks" a fair amount as a tag on requests: "Could you X? Thanks so much."
I'm a spy for the grays,
Giant eyes, anal probes and all.
On "sir" and "ma'am" I have an unfortunate tendency to use the wrong one when I use them.
21: No tip for you!
More seriously, I would agree with you that "could I get" sounds more casual than "could I have," but there's a lot of breathing room between casual and rude.
26: Hey, welcome back!
I do gender okay on the fly -- time of day defeats me. I will say "Morning!" to greet someone I'm seeing for the first time that day regardless of what time it is. I figure if I make an exhaustive list of this sort of quirks, I can eventually use it to diagnose the exact location of my brain tumor.
I agree with 20. "If you would please," "If you don't mind," "Please could you," &c.
Saying "Please do X" to someone in person sounds to my ear like I'm asserting authority over that person, and even then like I'm not being as polite about it as I should be.
Thinking about it, I'll use "please" by itself in writing (a letter, or a lengthy e-mail). Usually in that context I actually am either asserting a right to the thing requested or else some authority to direct the person receiving the request.
(For reference, my starting region was the northeast US, but I've spent a while in other places by now, mostly in DC (which is a mix of southern, northern, and other things)).
Just to bring an international perspective: Danish does not have a word for either please or Thank you.
Strange. My grandmother, born in Randers in 1900, used "Vær så god" (Sp?) and "Tak", even "Mange tak" pretty freely. Is this archaic?
Saying "Please do X"
Well, that construction sounds like an employer/employee exchange, yes. Down here, I think it's generally put at the end of a sentence. "Excuse me. Could I get another cup of coffee, please?"
37: When I was in Denmark the only word of Danish I was able to retain was "Tak," which I understood to mean "Thank You." It was a brief visit (~2 days), and I was in the company of English speakers the whole time, so maybe I'm way off, but I certainly got the impression that basic politeness required "Tak" in places where I would usually say "Thank You."
Also, my friend (who lives there) told me the Danes are reflexive rule followers. He once wandered out of a Pub with a group of Danish friends at 2 AM completely all hammered. When they got to a crosswalk on an empty street he just boldly walked across only to find that his friends were all standing on the other side gently swaying and holding on to each other as they waited for the Walk signal, and looking at him as if he had just eaten a baby.
I try to do both "please" AND a question. Like "would you please get me another beer while you're up?"
Same here. "Please" also appears a lot in my speech "yes please," and in written instructions to people, under circumstances where it really is appropriate to be instructing them. If I'm sending an email to my students, it may well say "Please remember to..." do whatever.
Dear collaborators, please take a look at the work site and make sure that your list of tasks is up to date. Dear contributor to this edited volume, please double check all references before submitting your final draft. Please note that this is a firm deadline. Please let me know if you need any additional information from me.
Also: "I'd like the chocolate cake, and a cup of coffee, please."
8: Me, serious? Fogga please. I just wanted an excuse to use the "_____ please" construction.
14: The phrase under discussion is "in spades", not "call a spade a spade". But then I suppose all figures of speech involving "spade" look the same to you. Racist.
Also: "I'd like the chocolate cake, and a cup of coffee, please."
It'll make you fat after all those dhosas...
You're absolutely right that written usage is entirely different (and much more abrupt).
Oh, phew. I was worried I was going to have to ditch my KKK-themed playing cards.
41.2 The expression "to call a spade a spade and not a bloody shovel" originally just meant to use the unvarnished truth and had no racist connotations. Whearas the racist usage, "black as the ace of spades", is cards related. So, sorry Heebie, they have to go.
42.last: Duh. Whoops. I blame the fact that it was 9:30 on a Monday morning.
However, observe (please!) that according to this other Web site I was still right, albeit for the wrong reasons. "In spades" apparently comes from the card suit, just because it's the highest suit. (The suit comes from the digging implement, which is used on cards because it resembles a "leaf symbol that appeared on early German playing cards.")
"Sir" just goes utterly unrecognized by younger guys. They hear it said, and assume the preceding didn't apply to them. Counterproductive if you're trying to say "excuse me, sir".
Not exactly. I get addressed as "sir" on a daily basis. It's almost always by panhandlers, though.
47: I got panhandled just yesterday outside of Whole Foods. The guy said he was hungry, so I offered him some crackers and cookies (I was walking out). He said he couldn't eat the crackers because he didn't have any teeth (though I could plainly see he had front teeth) and said that he knew I was too busy to buy him a sandwich (which would seem harder to chew than crackers), so maybe I should just give him some money. So I just walked on.
"Please" softens, whether for a request or a command. Sometimes you have to give commands. You could at least be nice about. "Please do that for me by the end of the day. Thank you."
The thing, IME, that seems to consistently mess up English speakers learning other languages is that most don't have a phrase equivalent to "You're welcome." It's understandable -- they want to be polite in the way they know how, but someone says "Thank you" and you can't do nothing about it.
45: I have occasion to instruct lots of novices in the use of the digging fork (aka a "garden fork"). Almost everyone invariably calls it a "pitchfork". I wish they would just call a digging fork a digging fork and not a bloody pitchfork.
51: But aren't names for various garden implements sort of local. What you are calling a digging fork, is, I'm guessing, what I would call a potato fork.
(The suit comes from the digging implement, which is used on cards because it resembles a "leaf symbol that appeared on early German playing cards.")
Really? I thought spades were swords as in Tarot cards, through Spanish 'espada' for sword.
I do think it is very useful to understand commands and be able to be commanding, even for civilians. This might be the difference between the person who "takes charge" and is competent in emergencies, and the one who isn't.
"Command-mode" should not be accompanied with anger or judgement. The point is efficiency. I think it is important to be able to say "Get off the train tracks!" with the confidence that it will work.
I tend to obey most commands, if possible, in public places. The commander is either dangerous to some degree, drunk or angry, or knows what she is doing. And it doesn't happen very often.
Continuing 47, my reflexive response upon being addressed as "sir" is "Who the hell is this idiot and what does he want, and how can I make him go away?" And then potentially it may turn out that the person is not a panhandler, and not looking for charitable donations, or a signature for a petition, and isn't trying to get me to buy something, and later on I may realize that the person was being polite.
What apo said in 38. Please at the end of a sentence is natural and lacks any sense of imposition (well, apart from an acknowledgement that your request may be an impostion). And in response to the OP, I'm a habitual pleaser and thanker. I also say "sorry" more than I should, to the extent that I occasionally catch myself apologising when someone else should be.
But aren't names for various garden implements sort of local. What you are calling a digging fork, is, I'm guessing, what I would call a potato fork.
Regardless, what is being referred to is definitely not a "pitchfork". It's like calling a crescent wrench a pipe wrench. Or rain, on your wedding day.
Sometimes my students call me ma'am. Some of my colleagues take offense when they're ma'am/sirred instead of doctored.
I've known young(ish) women who feel that being referred to as "ma'am" is basically the same as someone saying "hey, old lady!" to them.
It is, isn't it?
"I recognize you as someone who I would at one time have called 'miss', but now you have reached the point where I should call you 'ma'am'."
62: I have the opposite problem in that I often get 'doctored' (especially in correspondence) when, education-wise, I should rate only a Mister. I always yell (or write back), "Do I look like the kind of person who could finish a disseration?"
62. Some of your colleagues need to get a life.
I've known two different people from Ohio who said "Please?" when this Northeasterner would expect "Excuse me?" As in:
Oudemia: Blahdeblah blah blah. Mumble mumble.
Joan: Please?
Oudemia: Huh?
64: Maybe it's a southern thing, but I commonly see females of all ages addressed as "ma'am".
Anyway, seeing adulthood as somehow undesirable because it implies one looks "old" is pernicious nonsense. You should know that, ma'am.
I have never heard "Please?" in that situation. "Pardon?" was confusing enough. The first time I heard that, an onlooker probably would have laughed out loud at how I responded. It was like a really stupid comedy sketch.
"Something something blah blah inaudible."
"Pardon?"
"What?"
"Pardon?"
"What?"
"Pardon?"
"Did you say....'pardon'?"
"Yes...I didn't hear what you said."
"Oh, okay. So...why did you say 'pardon'?"
"I don't know...I mean, because I didn't hear what you said, so I wanted you to repeat it."
"Oh. Wow. Um...(tries to remember what he was talking about before this bizarre and inexplicable event occurred)"
68: I use 'miss' if the woman is young enough that I would feel pervy if I got caught doing a G-8 style ogle. Otherwise I use 'ma'am'.
70: "G-8" is something like "R-17", no? I really think 8 is far too young for you to perv on, MH.
I can't imagine a situation in which I would use the word "ma'am".
Also, I'm with the no-"please"-ers. It might occasionally show up as "could you please... ?", but not very often. (More commonly: "would you mind... ?") There's also, e.g., "Could you bring me a cup of tea, please?", but even then it more often becomes a "thanks": "Could you bring me a cup of tea? [wait an instant for some minimal acknowledgement] Thanks."
73: Could you take a moment to figure out the use/mention distinction? Thanks.
I don't think I say "you're welcome" much, either. More likely a "sure" or "no problem".
71: I'm trying refer to either an Obama-ish glance or a Sarkozy-ish contemplative stare.
72: In 72 I couldn't figure out if you were using "use" or just mentioning it.
76: We speak the same dialect, apparently. "Sure thing!" more often than just "sure", though.
On the rudeness of please: I once got an email from a collaborator reading, in part, "Please look over my results and figure out a way that you can make some meaningful contribution to this project." (I might misquote, slightly.)
I say "If it should please you to do so" and "It pleases me to meet you."
On June 29, the day he was installed by Honduran coup leaders as the country's new interim foreign minister, Enrique Ortez Colindres repeatedly used racist slurs to describe U.S. president Barack Obama.
Using the word "negrito," a well-recognized and profoundly racist epithet, whose literal translation means "little black man" or "little black boy," Ortez referred to Obama as "that little black boy who knows nothing about nothing" ["ese negrito que no sabe nada de nada"] and "a little black man who doesn't know where Tegucigalpa is" ["el negrito, no conoce donde queda Tegucigalpa"]. In another case, he told the Honduran newspaper El Tiempo (translation from DailyKos):
I have negotiated with queers, prostitutes, leftists, blacks, whites. This is my job; I studied for it. I am not racially prejudiced. I like the little black sugar plantation worker who is president of the United States.
|>
Needless to say, the blockquote is cockamamie there. It's all ought to be blockquoted.
I also say "sorry" more than I should, to the extent that I occasionally catch myself apologising when someone else should be.
I hate this about myself. If I catch myself in time, I just tack on a "... that you feel that way," to undermine it.
I have negotiated with queers, prostitutes, leftists, blacks, whites.
I like this. It's as though he's Evil Walt Whitman.
I've been trying to replace "sorry" with "excuse me." Feels less reflexively self-abnegating.
"Please" often makes a request sound rude to me, turning it into a parent-to-child or boss-to-underling tone.
Absolutely. Fuck please. I think I only use it when I'm faux-begging for something.
I also think "please" can bring some implied resentment into a question. Like "Could you please do the dishes tonight?" Resentment!
My boyfriend uses please and it drives me nuts. "Hey, I'm going to refill my soda, do you want me to refill yours?" "Yes, please." What, am I your fucking mother? Hate. It.
80: "Sure thing! Oh, and if you don't mind, could you not be such a self-important jackass? Thanks!"
"Please" can be used very effectively as an imperative. It doesn't need to be at the beginning of the sentence either, it's just a matter of using the flattest, "I'm not really asking, I'm telling" tone you can muster.
Some people develop elaborations on this. An old boss I used to have was fond of saying "I really need your help this one, guys." This meant, roughly: "get it done or you're fired."
72, 74, 76: Lords of light, essear is a barbarian!
An old boss I used to have was fond of saying "I really need your help this one, guys." This meant, roughly: "get it done or you're fired."
Proof that words are neutral; it's how you use them that is good or bad.
I've been trying to replace "sorry" with "excuse me." Feels less reflexively self-abnegating.
Another approach is when you catch yourself about to apologize for something, consider whether a "thank you" would be just as appropriate.
"Sorry you had to wash those dishes." OR "Thank you for washing those dishes!"
88: "Yes please" drives you nuts? It seems like it's a pretty common response with no actual implications that you're someone's mom.
That reminds me that in China, it's odd shading into rude to use "thank you" to those closest to you. Friends and family shouldn't have to say thanks to one another, the thinking goes. It's really only people who don't owe you any natural fealty or kindness or help who need to be thanked. In fact the most common way of saying "you're welcome" translates literally as "don't use thank you with me!"
My conclusion from skimming this thread:
- I give a frightful number of commands. Most of the time people seem to interpret them as I intend them, though on rare occasion I have confounded by people who don't understand that "Please X" means "Do X."
- I use "please" constantly, and in a wide variety of contexts including polite requests, commands, and sarcastic remarks.
- I was not raised to "sir" and "ma'am," but have effortlessly adopted it for ease of communication in certain subgroups. It is a huge help. That said, if I hear someone else defaulting to it, I assume they must be: a) Southern, or b) military. Or both.
Like Apo and Bob, I habitually say please and thank you when ordering coffee or at the restaurant, etc. When used within some ongoing relationship it can be a vehicle for passive aggression, I guess, but if you're dealing with strangers or people serving you then be polite, you ignorant boor.
My boyfriend uses please and it drives me nuts. "Hey, I'm going to refill my soda, do you want me to refill yours?" "Yes, please." What, am I your fucking mother? Hate. It.
Huh.
I say "please" a good deal - maybe less so when asking favors as opposed to for physical things. I think that my softener is "could I get," as opposed to "could I have" or "can I get".
These days at restaurants, I sometimes clip to "Some water, please," or some such. Does this sound rude to anybody, assuming the tone is pleasant?
For statistical reporting purposes: raised in the South, to one parent from New England and one from Ohio.
My boyfriend uses please and it drives me nuts. "Hey, I'm going to refill my soda, do you want me to refill yours?" "Yes, please." What, am I your fucking mother? Hate. It.
What? Is there a sentence missing from this anecdote or something?
When someone offers me someone, I always try to say something you'd never say to your mother. Like "Yes, fuck you" or "Dope, skank."
Whenever someone offers me something, that is. Nobody ever offers me someone, more's the pity.
102: "It's about goddamned time."
When someone offers me someone,
A more common event for DS than for some of us, apparently.
95.last: Or martial arts.
Which reminds me: non-Japanese people referring to someone Japanese in English and appending "-san" to the name. Weird, or no?
I am also almost incapable of saying "No" without saying "thank you." It's so ingrained that I have said it in circumstances when it was as manifestly inappropriate as it would be during, say, a mugging.
I've made progress, though, because at first it was "No, but thank you for asking," which was so mercilessly mocked by other kids that I abandoned it as a teenager.
To avoid pissing her off, m. leblanc's boyfriend has to tell the joke thusly: "Take my girlfriend. No, seriously!"
95.last: Or martial arts.
Yep. That's where I picked up Sir and Ma'am. I use them with strangers, find them very useful. They wouldn't otherwise be in my speech.
I go heavy on the pleases.
My friend's well-trained toddler would throw tantrums and scream "NO THANK YOU NO THANK YOU NO THANK YOU!" It was pretty cute.
109:
WITT: Hand over all your money, motherfucker!
VICTIM: Okay, please don't hurt me! Here. Do you want my watch too?
WITT: No, but thank you for asking.
I never managed to actually learn Tamil, but I've been told by multiple sources that "thank you" is deprecated around here - people leave it unsaid, simply showing it in their facial expressions / gestures / etc.
Which reminds me: non-Japanese people referring to someone Japanese in English and appending "-san" to the name. Weird, or no?
In my experience (business + education), certainly uncalled for, but not rude or overtly weird.
Nobody ever says "ma'am" in the UK - it's either "love" if they're being friendly, "hen" if they're being northern, or "mrs surname" or "miss surname" if they're telesales types who have your surname. Men get sirred, though. Most unfair.
Because of this gender distinction I like being "ma'am"ed in the US, and fail to understand anyone's problems with it - and will use "ma'am" whenever it seems appropriate, which is pretty much whenever "sir" seems appropriate to politely address someone whose name I don't know.
I use "Please" and "thanks so much" to strangers all the time - particularly supermarket staff who are required by explicit work directives to say "please" and "thank you" to me. I think the rule there is that if they have to say it to me or get fired, I'll say it to them only more so.
(I also say "Excuse me" and "Would you" .. "Excuse me, could you show me where I can find the tinned tomatoes, as you seem to have moved them since the last time I looked for them?" just seems nicer than "I can't find the tinned tomatoes, where are they?" especially as the shelf-stacker has usually started moving off as soon as I say "tinned tomatoes" to point me at them...)
At work I use "please" and "thank you" a lot, but then what else can you say? "Please will you make sure you have sent this to me to arrive noon Friday" is still an absolute order, it's just nicer than "Deadline noon Friday, or else".
With friends and family, I usually find that asking politely is better than all the 'please' and 'thank you' in the world...
113: Hey, we all know how muggings are supposed to go. There's no reason there has to be so much uncertainty, so much tension. A little politeness goes a long way, and you're both gonna feel better afterward.
99 was quite funny. Thank you, peep!
to politely address someone whose name I don't know.
In China if the stranger is older than you, the customary polite way to ask them something is to address them as (paternal) "uncle" or "aunt". A stranger about the same age or younger is usually called "sir" or "little miss", although "friend" can work too. Occasionally you'll meet an old-timer who will use "comrade" as a substitute for all of the above.
Actually, now that I think of it, it's not "little miss", it's "younger sister". It's all just one big happy family over there. We used to joke that's because to them, all Chinese look alike.
80 sounds like a classic non-native-speaker error to me, especially the way "some" is used.
What do you people use to get the attention of a stranger when, for example, they're walking in front of you and they just dropped something without noticing it? I almost always say "ma'am" or "sir".
120: That would make dating really creepy.
123: A couple months ago, that exact situation happened - stranger walking in front of me on the sidewalk dropped something. I picked it up and said "excuse me," loudly enough that he looked around and saw I was talking to him.
124: "Little miss"? I agree.
I always, always say please. Or some complicated locution that functions like 'please': "if it's not too much trouble could you ..., etc".
Plus many thank yous.
re: 101
Not all martial arts. Mine doesn't go in for any of that stuff. No titles, on formal language.
126: Barbarous French hoodlums.
Wow. I hadn't thought about this much, but I really don't use the word "please" much. I tend to use those Pinker-like constructions like "Would you mind if..." or "When you get a second, could I get..." etc. I do say please if offered something I really want ("Would you like some more salsa?" "Mm, please!") or, uh, during sex I guess.
123: I agree, "sir" or "ma'am". Unless it's a younger guy who dropped something, in which case it's counterproductive to shout "sir" for the reasons in 23.2. Below about 30, it's way easier to say "Hey man, you dropped your ______." Then he responds "Thanks, skank." It's a delicate ballet we young folks dance.
those Pinker-like constructions
I know you read about indirect speech acts in Pinker, but I have to confess that it's kind of killing me to see you attribute them to him.
We used to joke that's because to them, all Chinese look alike.
The place I bought my bike was run by an older Chinese guy (good but accented English) with a couple of younger Asian-American guys working for him. While I was picking my bike up after work, another Asian-American customer came in, and one of the guys working there looked at him and asked "Hey, were you biking around Flushing last weekend? I saw this guy who looked like you from behind."
"Nah, we just all look alike."
"Please" can be used very effectively as an imperative.
Agreed. I use "please" a fair amount, but I use it at the beginning in only 2 (I think) situations:
1 - "Please pass the butter," and then only with family & friends;
2 - When assigning work. It's always followed by "Thanks" and I only use it with someone with whom I have an established and friendly relationship. (Or, in one case, a passive-agressive one.)
131: I just meant because we were just discussing them the other day. I'm aware that he didn't invent them.
122: It was from a native speaker. Otherwise it would have been less annoying. (I checked the phrasing, which I didn't quite quote accurately, but the word "some" was used in that way, which doesn't sound off to me.)
or, uh, during sex I guess.
"When you get a chance, could I get some...."
135: Well, in that case: Unforgivable!
136: Heh. There has got to be some interesting pornographic potential here. "Pardon me, but if it wouldn't trouble you too much, would you mind...?"
There have been several times, in Florida, Michigan, and Texas, when I have been with a friend who I believe looks absolutely nothing like me, aside from general height and stature and being not-blonde, and had conversations with black people who were stunned to learn we weren't sisters. (Different friends in each case.)
I know you know! It's totally my problem that I care at all, and it comes from a long history of being frustrated by Steven Pinker.
140: Once when I was about 26 or so, I took my sisters into my office to show them around. They are 3 and 5 years younger than me. A black co-worker asked me if they were my daughters.
140: I got that in Samoa -- any white woman within fifteen years of my age, five inches of my height, and with hair neither really blond or really black, people would mix us up given the chance. I picked up some good gossip that way.
The use of "please" is fraught because it tends to be the locution of choice for signaling annoyance, impatience, sarcasm etc. So in the construction, "May I have a cup of coffee, please", any deviation from "please" being neutral and unstressed—such as the slightest hesitation before voicing it, added emphasis or change in intonation, in fact anything that makes it stand out at all—makes it generally interpreted as something more than a mere pleasantry by the listener.
141: Steven Pinker has frustrated rfts's family for generations.
re: 142
I was asked once if my wife was my daughter.* She laughed long and hard. It was a very old lady who asked, mind.
* I am older, but not by that much, and at the time I think I was, maybe 32 or 33.
Speaking of ways of giving commands, what the hell does "strongly encourage" mean? When my quasi-boss "strongly encourages" me to try to attend a meeting even if only for part of a day, when I've explained I'll be at a workshop in Italy that I planned to attend prior to the meeting being scheduled, does it mean he expects me to fly back for the day? Grrrrr.
140: People (of various shades) often ask if my sister and I are twins, which I think is a function of our being almost exactly the same height, i.e., freakishly tall. When we're not together, some people have no clue which one of us they're talking to.
re: 148
It usually means they are ordering you to do it, but they are too much of a coward to come out and say it.
Apparently the meaning is important because the "anonymous donor" who funds our institute will be there. Anonymity: you're doing it wrong.
I was with my mom as she was coming out of anesthesia, and the attending nurse addressed me as her husband. Mom laughed and said, "this is my son."
"Oh, well, if your husband comes by this afternoon--"
"That would certainly be a surprise. He's been dead for 22 years."
"Would it be okay if I walked away and came back in a few minutes to start this conversation all over again?"
152: Although it sorta works the other way with "meaning" serving as a reference to the interpretation of "strongly encourage". Don't admit to typos unless absolutely cornered.
I don't think I say "you're welcome" much, either. More likely a "sure" or "no problem".
One of my many reform campaigns is to bring back "you're welcome" to everyday usage. I sometimes say "de nada," "sure thing," &etc., but I find "you're welcome" more gracious.
What I truly, truly hate, though, is "thank you" in response to "thank you." Sometimes it makes sense: in a job interview, say, "thank you for coming in" followed by "thank you for the opportunity."
149: I haven't noticed it happen in a while, but Sir K's niece and nephew used to sometimes call her "Aunt [Freakishly Tall But Not Kraaby]" when she first arrived at their house.
Once when I was about 26 or so, I took my sisters into my office to show them around. They are 3 and 5 years younger than me. A black co-worker asked me if they were my daughters.
It seems unlikely to me that that has to do with race.
re: 155
I usually just say 'no problem', too, rather than 'you're welcome' but it depends on context. It's some fusty humanities scholar who speaks like a PG Wodehouse character, then I go with 'you're welcome'.
150 It usually means they are ordering you to do it, but they are too much of a coward to come out and say it.
That's my guess, but an order would be so much more straightforward, especially as it would give me the opportunity to say "so you'll fund the extra plane tickets and I won't have to take the money out of my research account, right?"
148: Depends on the person, but I'd probably say it's just short of an order in terms of being negotiable.
If your boss won't accept that you're in Italy during that time and wants you to come back, ask for the company to pay for a deluxe flight so that you can actually be conscious for the meeting that it's so important for you to attend.
If your company won't pay for a nice flight, it's a good argument that your attendance isn't that crucial. It should be survivable if you give the meeting a pass. Offer to do a call in if the donor really wants to speak to you about your work, or ask if they can set up a conference call if the donor's giving some speech for everyone to hear.
156: That's in the same category as my calling one niece by the other's name, though, not that they couldn't tell the difference.
157: I find I have more trouble judging age on appearance when dealing with other races. Though I don't think I've even been off by more than 50% like my coworker.
|| Sir Kraab: Dunno if you've seen but I finally got back to your lost-in-transit email ... sorry! |>
162: There was a 30 Rock about this!
An older black gentleman once asked if my ex-boyfriend were my son. That one baffled me, because we were both about 28. And he is fully Filipino. After thinking about it for a few days, I decided to doubt his eyesight.
164: The point is, she made me feel really, really old. Now, that happens all the time, but it was a novel feeling at the time.
which I think is a function of our being almost exactly the same height, i.e., freakishly tall.
I think that's the explanation that works for all the 'All you people look alike to me' problems. People seem to remember unfamiliar faces at least partially by a list of their unusual features -- if someone's really tall, or really short, or has bright red hair, or a whole lot of freckles, the unusual feature is what gets remembered, and the rest of the face isn't as vivid.
And for cross-ethnic IDs, if you don't spend a lot of time hanging around with Asians, straight black hair and however you spell 'epithantic' folds are going to strike you as unusual features, and there goes any hope of remembering the rest of the face. That was what happened to me in Samoa --people saw the skin tone and the un-muscular build, and didn't remember anything else.
"People seem to remember unfamiliar faces at least partially by a list of their unusual features"
Maybe I'll stop my efforts to eliminate 'monobrow' and thus be more memorable.
168: In almost all social circles, a simple facial tattoo will suffice.
I do find that I am somewhat charmed by a phrase I hear (generally from older folks) around here, "I thank you" instead of just "thank you". I believe it is a regionalism (or is it widespread?). It also seems to be a class marker and is probably on the way out of the vernacular, just like "authentic" uses of "yinz/yunz".
I address homeless people as "sir" or "ma'am".
One of my committee members addresses me, and I him, with "sir".
That's in the same category as my calling one niece by the other's name, though, not that they couldn't tell the difference.
In the instances I'm thinking of, they were actually mistaking you for your sister. For example, in once case, nephew saw you across the room and I said "Look who's here!" and he said "Aunt [Tall Number Two]!" and then when I said "no, it's Tante", he did a doubletake and stared at you intently for a few seconds and then said "oh, it is Tante!".
170: I find myself slipping (authentically) into 'yunz' now and then.
155.1: Hm, good luck with that project. "You're welcome" has become much like "please" as explained in 144, I think. The only way it works without arousing suspicion as to your intent is if it's said with a smile, in a somewhat chipper or warm tone with maybe an imagined exclamation point. Otherwise it may tend to sound grim.
Most of the time when people are doing things for one another, it's a team project, if you will, so one person completing a task might be thanked for it, and the task-doer might then acknowledge her or his contribution ("sure", "no problem"), but saying "You're welcome" seem to shift the matter into one of command and compliance.
I'm now thinking that "You're welcome" may be short for "You are welcome to my services." I imagine a person could look this up!
saying "You're welcome" seem to shift the matter into one of command and compliance
Wow, it's like you all speak a different language.
177:...and we're back to 136-138.
What is the proper protocol when someone calls you by the wrong name and it's someone you actually know very well? With someone I've just met, or only run into a few times, it's easy to quickly remind them, "Oh, I'm AWB!" But when it's someone who really should know your name because you're friends or you work together or something, it seems maybe like it's pushy or weird to remind them of your name. I always do, just because I'm always having mental blips of this kind, but it is perhaps unnecessarily embarrassing to be told you said the wrong name.
I think people forget my name quite a lot. Maybe it doesn't suit me or something.
saying "You're welcome" seem to shift the matter into one of command and compliance
Huh? IME it's almost always a matter of tone.* It's like how some people can make "African-American" sound like the most horrible epithet you can imagine. And the default tone for "You're welcome" in my world is utterly innocuous. It can be rude, sure, but the speaker has to do something deliberate in tone to make it so.
*Although I know one person who hates "No problem" because he feels as though the store clerk is implying that your request could have been a problem or an imposition, and they are magnanimously agreeing that it wasn't.
"please" is important, and even "when you get the chance, could you bring me some more bread?" requires a "please" at the end of it.
Plus, heebie, if you use it a lot the kid will pick it up. PK's rudeness in most things is saved by his using "please," "thank you," and "excuse me." And he's much better about helping out if I say, "sweetie, I know you hate it, but would you please take the compost out for me?" than when Mr. B. says, "PK, take the compost out," which just gets his back up over being "bossed."
181: My dad has a big thing against "no problem" too, although I don't think it's for the same reason. It's one of his few "you kids get off my lawn" traits, so far.
someone calls you by the wrong name and it's someone you actually know very well?
If you know them quite well in a friendly way, make fun of them, including suggestions of possible medical explanations for their mental deficits. Someone you have to be polite to? Something like "It's [AWB], actually. People do that all the time." This doesn't make any sense, but it lets them off the hook.
I always say "Will you kids get off my lawn, please."
176: Apo, if you have time, could you give examples of when "You're welcome" is normal and natural, and common? That is, around the house? in a store or eating establishment (though you're presumably the thanker, not the thankee, there)? Or in a professional/work setting?
It's just that the setting and circumstance makes a difference. I can't think of many examples in my day-to-day where "You're welcome" isn't a little unusual.
and even "when you get the chance, could you bring me some more bread?" requires a "please" at the end of it.
Stop bossing us, B.
Huh. I've been one of the rude people here, but I do say "You're welcome." Although actually, I mutter "Welcome" at adults -- saying it clearly with both words is reserved for children who have successfully said "Thank you" without prompting.
My grandmother, born in Randers in 1900, used ... "Tak", even "Mange tak" pretty freely. Is this archaic?
IME both of these phrases were current as recently as the 1980's. Could they really have disappeared?
German has the wonderful particle mal that can stand in for "please" when a bitte would be overwrought, e.g. "Mach' mal so" for "Do this".
Europe is full of the potential for politness conflicts. Lots of nationalities don't really do the 'please/thank you' thing to the same degree as the British, and lots also don't do the 'invade my personal space and I will fucking snap part of you off' thing.
Yesterday, shopping, some spanish kid grabbed my arm and literally pushed me out of the way of the rack. Normally that'd just not fly.
"please" is important, and even "when you get the chance, could you bring me some more bread?" requires a "please" at the end of it.
Er, um, why?
184: I'll often get their name wrong on purpose in return, at which point they'll either realize their mistake, or they'll say "It's Mike, not Mark" and I'll reply "I know. And it's M/tch, not D/ckw//d."
186: Why just the other day, I said "Wham bam thank you sir" and apo immediately replied "you're welcome".
I don't see anything unusual in saying "you're welcome," though more often I'll use "no problem," or "my pleasure," or "anytime" instead. "You're welcome" is also very useful in response to a failure to thank. "Uh, you're welcome"
I confess that I have, occasionally, remarked upon friends' and strangers' failure to say "please" in restaurants, etc. I spent a great deal of time alone as a child.
On the other hand, "sir" and "ma'am" give me the creeps for some reason.
190.2: That would piss me off quite badly. I really don't like invasion of my personal space. I think you should have snapped part of him off.
IME it's almost always a matter of tone.
Right, as I said in 174.1. As long as it's kept so innocuous that it's almost an obligatory place-holder ("Thank you." "You're welcome."), it's fine. I guess I was suggesting that it's falling out of use as such a place-holder.
Motch just looks like a Dockwood, though.
What is the proper protocol when someone calls you by the wrong name and it's someone you actually know very well?
Depends who. If they're seriously old, roll with it. If they're younger and you like them, just look them in the eye and say "Nearly..." If you don't like them, have fun.
187: If you people would mind your own manners, I wouldn't have to.
You're welcome.
179: People are always getting my name mixed up. My previous supervisor - come to think of it, my editor at my previous job, too - called me "Chris" pretty often. A raised eyebrow often was enough to get him/them to notice the mistake.
Correct me if I misremember, I only met you in person once, but don't you share a name with a Stephen King character? If so, maybe they get your name mixed up just because you don't seem like the type.
I'm horrible about names myself. I get the names of some of my cousins confused, and not just the twins.
190.2. I think that would have got bits of him snapped off in Spain, too, as a matter of fact. He was just obnoxious and you were very forbearing.
"Thank you" and "you're welcome" are for city-slickers. A real man says "much obliged" and "aw shucks, it warn't nuthin'" .
202.2: Yes! It's also weird, though, that when people use the wrong name, they always name someone else we both know who is female, white, and overweight. I figure that's one of those "You people all look alike" things.
but don't you share a name with a Stephen King character?
Stop compromising Cujo's pseudonymity!
No one at my work gets my name mixed up. My section comprises six lawyers -- one female supervisor, one male deputy-supervisor, and four female worker bees. Of the four underlings, three of us share a first name and preferred shortening of that name. The fourth is sometimes referred to as "Not-[name]".
Duckwand the Inscrutable, I presume?
...when Mr. B. says, "PK, take the compost out," which just gets his back up over being "bossed."
I would go zero-to-insane in about half a second if one of my kids fussed at me about being bossed. My SIL and BIL have totally screwed their son up because they put up with that crap.
Ummm, no offense.
Apo, if you have time, could you give examples of when "You're welcome" is normal and natural, and common?
After somebody says, "Thank you."
This thread has been about as strange as any I've read. People really think that benign pleasantries are rude and imposing and meant to signal dominance? Really? Do people get pissed off if somebody says "bless you" after a sneeze, too?
I usually just say 'no problem', too, rather than 'you're welcome'
If I know you well enough, I just say "whatever". Some people may find this annoying.
211: Okey-doke. Different culture. I wasn't challenging you, by the way, just really don't encounter it much around here. Sometimes I think it would be nice, but a lot of the time, if someone said it, it would raise an eyebrow.
I might experimentally try this at the bookshop. It will be a bit dangerous! "Thanks for installing that new backup software [which I totally have no idea how to do myself, so I helplessly need you to do it, can you do it for us please?]" ... "You're welcome."
Do people get pissed off if somebody says "bless you" after a sneeze, too?
Of course! As an atheist it makes me feel oppressed.
I respond, "No, thank you! I don't want the blessings of your imaginary god!"
Do people get pissed off if somebody says "bless you" after a sneeze, too?
I PREFER to be damned, thanks much.
212: Now that you mention it, I'm pretty conscientious about saying "bless you" after a sneeze. As an atheist, maybe I should stop.
217: You call Him imaginary, but I figure, why take a chance?
I thought of the sir/maam thing as military and therefore resisted it ... until I moved south (Atlanta is a Northern settler-colony, but with enough Southerners around that you might could learn something). There I picked it up fairly self-consciously at first so as not to be taken for a racist rather than just a rude Northerner.
216: We in Politania continue to be puzzled by your non-punchlines.
If you just say "bless you", you're not specifying the origin of the desired blessing, so atheists are OK there. If asked to elaborate, they should say, "May the random fluctuations of the material universe contingently result in the outcome that you experience a probably illusory and certainly socially conditioned, but nevertheless pleasant sense of blessedness."
"Thank you" gets used as a polite alternative to "goodbye" in many not-really-social interactions. It may sound weird as I and Supermarket Checkout Person exchange four "thank yous" in the space of 15 seconds, but:
CCOP: *hands me card and receipt* "Thank you!" (tr: "Here is your bank card.")
Me: *pocketing card and dropping receipt into my shopping bag*"Thank you!" (tr: I acknowledge receipt of my bank card.)
Me: *picks up shopping bag, about to step back from till*
CCOP : "Thank you!" (tr: "Goodbye!")
Me: *stepping away from till* "Thank you!" (tr: "Goodbye!")
...it is less timeconsuming and more polite and less spooky than the other British alternative to "Goodbye!" which is "See you later!"
Coming from a supermarket employee, that one is downright spooky...
222: Hmmmm, that may be acceptable.
Thank you!
I wasn't challenging you
Oh, I know. It's just been one of those conversations where I suddenly realize that different parts of the country can be really, really different about small things. Like smiling at strangers, which is pretty common here, but apparently comes off as psychotic elsewhere.
222: but then you aren't really blessed, you just feel that way.
225: Nah, we can get away with most of this stuff in Chicago. I think everyone may assume you're hitting on them, though...
208: I have an uncommon spelling for my pretty common first name, but I did once work for a woman who had the same uncommon spelling*. We were then called, shall we say, Big Oudemia and Little Oudemia.
*When I first returned her call about interviewing for my position, I started spelling my name for her secretary and the secretary quickly said, "No, no! Spell *your* name, not *her* name." And then we were both very confused.
225.2: Like smiling at strangers, which is pretty common here, but apparently comes off as psychotic elsewhere.
Psychotic or flirty, in most places I'm familiar with. Occasionally you encounter someone who's just doing it because they're nice and friendly, and that's very cool.
221.2 I don't understand.
222: The commutation of the theistic blessing into a pagan luck-ritual (cf. salt o'er the shoulder) is problematic enough for your friendly neighborhood amateur Christologist without further denaturing.
230: one difference, O atheist, would be that it's possible to have the feeling, but not possible actually to be blessed.
222: alternatively, "gesundheit"
Sacramento is the only city I've lived in where passing on the sidewalk means a smile and saying hello. I like it.
Psychotic or flirty
Or both, which can be quite fun.
I am a Californian raised by Midwesterners, and I unfailingly say please, thank you, bless you, you're welcome. I also do the elaborate, Could you please... constructions. And lots of "have a nice day," etc., but that's because I worked in customer service for a long time.
I do not use sir/ma'am but that is because I have a tendency to misuse the gender, a la Di Kotimy. Plus, I personally don't like being addressed as ma'am.
Other people's habits don't seem to bother me in the least where polite words are concerned; I do think it is all a matter of tone. You can make, "Get me a beer, will ya?" sound like a request and not a command pretty easily.
222: I just put "Bless You" in the same bin as ceremonial Deism. I have no objection to politicians saying things like "God Bless America," for instance. I say "bless you" for sneezes despite having no agent to invoke for the blessing, just out of politeness.
236: The problem with interpreting a smile as flirty is that you could be wrong! Dammit!
Like smiling at strangers, which is pretty common here, but apparently comes off as psychotic elsewhere.
This is common in all small Californian towns I've spent time in. (Not so much SF or LA, but even that depends on the neighborhood).
I nice thank-you variant that I first started hearing when I lived in Texas: 'preciate ya.
I like it. You aren't just thankful; you appreciate who I am as a human being.
233: Well, I agree with you that it is "not possible actually to be blessed", but some might say the feeling of being blessed is a blessing of a sort.
The problem with not interpreting a smile as flirty is that you could be wrong! Dammit!
When I was taking german lessons in Berlin one of the exercises we had to do was learn a bunch of different ways of asking for something, in different grades of politeness, and then go out into the street and try them on people. Unfortunately the only one I remember (aside from just using "bitte" or the obviously unhöflich imperative) was the relatively high-grade "wären Sie so freundlich …". Maybe there was a "viellecht" in there, too.
Can only an all-powerful deity bless someone?
This is common in all small Californian towns most places, it seems.
This sort of things dies of in cities pretty quick, I expect.
241: Did you just misspell "A" as "I"?
Positively Yglesiasan!
I like "gesundheit!" The way I say it, it sounds like I'm sneezing back at the sneezer.
231.2:
I just meant that, echoing apo, where I'm from "You're welcome" would of course be what follows in a situation like that, and so the set up an the ellipses are just confusing.
241: Joke's on you, helpy! "'Preciate" is short for "depreciate".
But actually I don't think I've ever heard "'preciate ya" before. "'Preciate it" is fairly common. Still, it's a big state.
245: Papal protocols and the various "Blessing of the Animals" Sundays at Episcopal and Catholic churches suggest that the all-powerful deity is a master delegator.
241: Did you just misspell "A" as "I"?
Positively Yglesiasan!
I first wrote a sentence that began with "I", but didn't like the way it read, so I rewrote it, but someone botched the rewrite.
My spelling powers really are Yglesiasan. I'm not sure why they let me through college.
I do not use sir/ma'am but that is because I have a tendency to misuse the gender, a la Di Kotimy.
I find this very odd. Are you otherwise confused by their gender, or just whether to use sir/ma'am?
(Butchness, drag, transgender, etc., aside.)
I've also, thankfully, never to date heard anyone use "heaveno" instead of "hello". I don't think I'd be able to refrain from open mocking.
"Have a blessed day" seems like it has high potential to annoy, but the only people I've heard use it have been superbenevolent black women of a certain age, and they somehow pull it off without offending me.
254: No, I know as soon as the sir/ma'am is out of my mouth (sometimes at the very moment I'm saying it) that I've grabbed the wrong one. I find it just as odd as you do. Probably reflects underlying gender issues.
256: Never heard it used in the wild.
237 And lots of "have a nice day," etc., but that's because I worked in customer service for a long time.
Oh, I say "have a nice day" a lot to people at checkout counters and whatnot. I suppose I'm not completely a barbarian.
257 I know as soon as the sir/ma'am is out of my mouth
One would hope you would know the gender of someone who has been in your mouth.
249: I figured that out in the intervening moments.
For what it's worth, my saying "You're welcome" in those circumstances would suggest, around these parts, "Yes, I have done this for you/us as a favor." That cues a whole chain of power relation issues: I did this because I had to, because you abdicated, yet it needed to be done, and I know that, so you forced my hand in some sense, so thanking me for it is a nice conciliation on your part, but let's be real. Etc.
In other words, in the circumstances in question, "You're welcome" would not be the best response on my part. "Sure" or "No problem" would be better.
259.last: Indeed, the bit part after the parenthetical remark ("... that I've grabbed the wrong one") is just as informative.
One would hope you would know the gender of someone who has been in your mouth.
Are you otherwise confused by their gender, or just whether to use sir/ma'am?
Not at all. But like many conventions, this one is so formulaic that I generally end up using either ma'am/sir depending on what I've been using more frequently recently - and so, if I've used a number of ma'ams in a row, I'll likely use a ma'am instead of a sir when the time comes to address a man. So, after a number of rather embarrassing occurrences, I just stopped using it altogether.
259.last: Di lives in a post-gender America.
around these parts
Are you talking about around your bookshop, or some wider area? If, for example, you gave your neighbor a loaf of freshly-baked zucchini bread, just because, and she said "wow, thanks!", would a reply of "you're welcome!" implicate your power relations with respect to said neighbor?
210: Unfortunately, PK has a temper, which he gets from Mr. B's side of the family (no, really), as well as a strong sense of his own dignity, which he gets from mine. It's a bad combination.
I figure I'm raising him to be an adult, not a little kid, so it's not really the end of the world that he is touchy about being ordered around. As long as he responds politely to polite requests, I feel okay about it. (Though alas, his dislike of being ordered does rather get in his way with a lot of adults.)
giving of zucchini products (and come now, you have to admit the superiority of courgette as a name...) can be very aggressive behaviour, M/tch. Granted, not as aggressive as giving the raw produce itself.
I don't use "Sir" or "Ma'am" naturally, except when, say, a stranger drops a phone on the ground. "Hey, You!" is rude and "Hey, Mister" makes you sound like a 1930s newsie. But I do use please a lot, as well as "you're welcome."
But this is all so context dependent. When I (white guy) moved to a heavily African American neighborhood in LA, it became very clear to me that it was just plain rude to refuse to "Ma'am" or "Sir" black folks over the age of about 20. I guess that's just more evidence that African American culture is so heavily southern. So now I often Ma'am and Sir black people but don't do the same thing for white folks. Racist? You be the judge.
Saying hello to people you pass while walking has seemed to me to be commonly done everywhere I've lived.
you have to admit the superiority of courgette as a name
What do you have against Italians, you racist?
"giving the raw produce"
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
What do you have against Italians, you racist?
Nothing! But if you've got a yard full of courgette, you might be able to pass some off on unsuspecting neighbors. No such luck with zucchini.
Besides, the word just rolls off the tongue better.
265: Of course not. I mentioned earlier that circumstance is essential. Professional environment vs. service environment vs. just plain personal life makes a huge difference.
I admit I included the "around these parts" for Apo's benefit. It's possible that "You're welcome" in a professional environment in his area doesn't carry any power implications.
265: I don't, quite, have parsimon's reaction to "You're welcome", but I see it. It'd be fine in the zucchini bread instance, because the zucchini bread really was random beneficence deserving thanks. It gets sticky when what you're being thanked for is normal, expected courtesy -- at that point "You're welcome" can have a tone of "That's right, I didn't have to do that for you, and you owed me that thank you." "It's nothing" or "Don't worry about it" play down the magnitude of the favor or courtesy.
IME, the real factor for determining whether you say hello to someone you pass on the street is not the size of the city you are in, but how many people are on that street right then. In Chicago, if you were in an uncrowded area, you could easily get a "hello." The hello only goes away in places where right then there are too many people to say hello to.
around these parts
I think she was talking about the link in 262.
275 nails it, I think.
In this city of many millions, you're likely to say hello to anyone you meet out walking, as much out of mutual surprise as anything else --- chances are good you'll complete your walk without seeing anyone, unless it's in a park.
On a crowded city street though, it would be odd.
his dislike of being ordered does rather get in his way with a lot of adults
You need to order him around more then, so he gets used to it.
I guess I usually interpret "you're welcome" as pro forma if it follows a "thank you", and passive aggressive if offered up alone.
I really like "que tenga buen dia", which I hear and use as the goodbye form of "buenas dias". It's the subjunctive, which I don't get to use enough of in english. Strict-literally, "that you have a good day."
"You're welcome" can have a tone of "That's right, I didn't have to do that for you, and you owed me that thank you."
Buh? "You're welcome" precisely downplays the (overt, formal) need to thank, by announcing that the person was, well, welcome to request or have or whatever the whatever in question.
268: Racist? You be the judge.
EXACTLY
It's the subjunctive, which I don't get to use enough of in english
You have to make occasions for use, my friend! Would that more people did.
Nothing! But if you've got a yard full of courgette, you might be able to pass some off on unsuspecting neighbors. No such luck with zucchini.
An acquaintance was in his garden when the old lady next door, a keen vegetable grower, leaned over the fence and asked "Would you like some cannabis?" His day was spoiled when he received a gift of calabrese. But he did say thank you.
281: If you're actually thinking about the meaning of the words, sure. But as a formula, it's a stereotyped phrase only used to reply to 'thank you', which therefore carries an implication that the preceding thanks were appropriate and necessary, rather than superogatory. If 'No problem" turns into a similarly one-use stereotyped response to "Thank you" in the future, it'll carry the same implication.
284: I wonder if the correct tactical response in the UK is to call what you have "zucchini" to best foist it off on the unexpecting?
My wife and I were showing her house to prospective tenants this weekend when she noticed the daintiest adidas-leaf plant sitting in a little terra cotta pot in the middle of the front yard. We tucked it behind a bush. I think they may even be legally allowed to grow it for prescribed use, but still, back yard?
which therefore carries an implication that the preceding thanks were appropriate and necessary, rather than superogatory
Or, alternatively, carries the implication that you've responded to a polite but unnecessary expression with the equally polite and unnecessary response.
Thinking of zucchini/courgette ... it's really yummy with couscous
279 - Soup is correct.
Getting annoyed at "you're welcome" is even dumber than getting annoyed at "please," which is a high bar to clear. Polite phrases can be deployed rudely, but if someone simply responds with slightly more politeness than you think the situation calls for and you get annoyed, it's not them that's being an asshole.
a gift of calabrese
I can't remember. Is that broccoli?
That's quite a bait and switch. Like your parents telling you there's a model train set under the Christmas tree for you but what they really meant is "pair of socks".
275 gets it right, I think (though there are other caveats -- e.g., if you pass someone on a dimly lit street late at night, when a "hello" might alarm them instead of seeming friendly). Same applies to hiking trails -- say "hi" to people if you're miles from anything crowded, but not if you're surrounded by tourists near the rim of the Grand Canyon.
In my limited experience hiking in Switzerland, I noticed people didn't do that as much, and the ones who did said something completely incomprehensible to me.
268: Southern, or people providing one another acknowledgments of the baseline respect that is, among white people, silently assumed?
Yeah, I can't see anyone actually getting bent out of shape over a 'you're welcome', just saying that I can understand how it might clang a little. I do, in fact, say it.
I figure I'm raising him to be an adult, not a little kid, so it's not really the end of the world that he is touchy about being ordered around. As long as he responds politely to polite requests, I feel okay about it.
Eh, I'd say a large part of adulthood is knowing when to acknowledge that other people have power over you, and you just have to suck it up. If your boss tells you to do something, you only care if they say "please" if you don't care about having a paycheck next month.
For the first 16-18 years, parents are the bosses. We're just lucky that they're generally very nice bosses with an earnest interest in our career development.
For the first 6-8 years, parents are the bosses.
fixed that for you.
294: Hiking in Switzerland, pretty much every trail encounter merited an exchange of "Grüß Gotts." In Bhutan, greetings ranged from smiles and waves to an Indian army officer's bizarre plea for water. In the U.S., the range has been predictably broader, from brief conversations about destinations, trails and the conditions thereof and equipment ("Now that is a classic external-frame pack!"), to "On your left!" from trail runners in Yosemite.
AKA "broccoli", it seems.
A variety of broccoli - the one with the thick stems and green heads the size of a small cauliflower, unlike the ones with the thin stems and small white or purple flowers or the one that AFAIK you can only get in Italy which is seriously leafy and has tiny green flowers and is used as a pizza topping around Naples.
an Indian army officer's bizarre plea for water
Not only, I assume, did you deny it, you stood over him and watched him slowly die.
292: Getting annoyed at "you're welcome"
Eh, you're misreading. The question is mostly when it's okay to say "You're welcome" yourself, i.e. when your interlocutor will find your utterance problematic.
You might get annoyed if someone offering it to you seems to be deploying it rudely, as you say. But I don't think anyone's suggesting that a polite "You're welcome" is obnoxious (except for m.leblanc upthread, regarding "Yes, please").
299: Hmm. I did hear some "Grüss Gott"s, but I heard some people say something else I didn't recognize. Or maybe it was the same thing in a Swiss accent that made it sound different?
301: A fate befitting the sort of man who leaves it to his much-darker-complected dogsbody to carry not only his pack and his rifle but his canteens up the (not to put too fine a point on it) Himalayas, but the Sergio Leone-esqueness of the scene would have been somewhat undermined by the lush forest in which the encounter occurred. So, no. Next time, though!
298: I know you went to the factories early, but 9 seems a little ridiculous.
285: Yes, there seems to be an interesting interplay going on here with words that are somewhat "semantically bleached" (from our discussion the other day) pleasantries in one context becoming more content rich and emotionally-loaded in related situations with different social contexts. For instance in our house, we try to keep please/thank you/your welcome going for the everday stuff like "pass the butter", as well as for when you really are in urgent need of an atypical favor (but usually acknowledged with a "no problem" or "no big deal"). For routine chores it is more complicated; "please" during the request implies some dissatisfaction on the part of the requestor, a neutral "thank you" is the norm upon timely/appropriate completion (but tonal variations generally indicate trouble) and an acknowledging "you're welcome" is a bit loaded (more than "no problem").
295:
Both. Or rather both Southern, and a response to politeness and courtesies (and not just silent ones) among white folk being refused to black folk. See also the use Mr. and Mrs. as standard titles in the African-American community, especially a generation back.
307: That doesn't really explain the near universal suffixes of "honey", "sugar", from some demographics.
307: Black and white and divided by a common language.
308: Christy Love was a demographic?
I had no idea so many of you people had been raised by wolves.
Mr. and Mrs. as standard titles in the African-American community
All of my children's daycare teachers (who have been mostly, though not uniformly, youngish A-A women) across three different institutions were called "Miss [First Name]" by the children and referred to as such by the parents when talking to their kids. The one exception was a much older woman who'd had a pretty good left-sided stroke and helped in the infant room at Keegan's daycare, mostly rocking and feeding since her mobility was only so-so. Everybody just called her "Sister" and for all I know that might be the name on her birth certificate. I never heard anybody of any age call her anything else and that's how she introduced herself.
309:
I don't mean to be obnoxious about this and I'm guessing you know, but this isn't about language. It's about the way that status is/has been policed and the way that respect is/has been given out or withheld.
to "On your left!" from trail runners in Yosemite.
At trail races around here it is good manners to say "Good job" when passing another runner. Unremarkable, perhaps, except that as in the case of other required politeness, the phrase is often delivered without feeling, and as such, one can end up hearing an odd-sounding string of unenthusiastic "Good job"s when a faster runner passes a long string of slower runners.
314: No irony there? Like "Good job being such a slowpoke"?
314: I like the idea of two runners, neck and neck, coming up to the finish, snarling "Good job" at each other alternately as each draws a nose ahead of the other.
No, trail runners are a friendly and "everyone's a winner" enough lot that I imagine the ritual emerged from a desire to make the passed runner feel like his or her accomplishment is just as worthy as that of the passer. Or at least, that's what I tell myself.
I have an aversion to "no problem" for reasons I can't quite articulate. And yet I recognize, consistent with LB's 274, that it occupies some important semantic real estate (cf. de rien, de nada, keine Ursache).
"My pleasure" kinda-sorta works in those situations, but you can imagine circumstances in which a literal interpretation of that formulation would be awkward.
315: It doesn't do to overthink these things.
in which a literal interpretation of that formulation would be awkward.
See 129, 136, 138.
Yesterday, shopping, some spanish kid grabbed my arm and literally pushed me out of the way of the rack. Normally that'd just not fly.
You were supposed to stab him, ttam. It's expected.
It doesn't do to overthink these things.
Quite. The time is much better spent learning how to breath out a quick "Lo - ser" in a cadence not quite indistinguishable from "Good Job"
"Thanks for the fellatio!"
"My pleasure!"
"No, no, no it wasn't. It was about my pleasure. Can't you get anything right?"
323: Just make sure you say that sincerely and in an innocuous manner. It's a formality, really, so nobody should get their panties in a bunch.
325 works for 324 as well, methinks.
You were supposed to stab him, ttam. It's expected.
like this?
When brain-machine interface technology improves and when we have a better understanding of what activity patterns map onto what subjective experiences, we'll finally be able to put to rest these pesky ambiguities of natural language. You'll just imagine the subjective experience you want what would have once been known as your "interlocutor" to have. Your BMI will then read that out from the appropriate neurons, transmit it to the other party's BMI, and his or her BMI will create the intended sense of being appreciated, disdained, etc. by directing light pulses towards the proper ChR2 transfected neurons.
It'll be a much better world, I tell you.
Looks like one of the gorings from the running of the bulls. You can see what looks like "Pamplona" on one of the dude's jackets.
329: The Goring of the Dumbasses in Pamplona, Spain.
As they do every year around this time, they ran the bulls in Pampolona. Briefly, the bulls were winning, but the game is rigged and it couldn't last.
Pwnage doesn't count if the timestamps are identical.
It's pretty awful to use a photo of a young man being killed as a joke.
It's pretty awful to use a photo of a young man being killed as a joke.
Different guy.
I don't think that bull is joking around, Jimmy P.
All of my children's daycare teachers (who have been mostly, though not uniformly, youngish A-A women) across three different institutions were called "Miss [First Name]" by the children and referred to as such by the parents when talking to their kids.
This is universal, isn't it? Please.
The one exception was a much older woman who'd had a pretty good left-sided stroke and helped in the infant room at Keegan's daycare, mostly rocking and feeding since her mobility was only so-so. Everybody just called her "Sister" and for all I know that might be the name on her birth certificate. I never heard anybody of any age call her anything else and that's how she introduced herself.
A nun?
This is universal, isn't it? Please.
I don't know. I only have the three children. You're welcome, skank.
334: THANK YOU!!!!!!1!!!
A lot of the elderly African-American women manning the phone banks, stuffing envelopes, etc. in the Obama office in East Cleveland I was stationed at last October/November went by Miss [Firstname], regardless of marital status. My favorite was Miss Classie.
At Joey's previous Montessori school, all of the teachers, all the administrators, and all the support staff were "Miss [Firstname]." The only exception was Mr. Adam. The employees all addressed each other this way, even when children were not around. It was a part of their corporate culture, like students calling each other Mr/Miss Lastame at SJC.
Sadly, this is not true for either child's current school.
I should add that all these schools are in an overwhelmingly white suburb of Cleveland, with all white staffs, and a largely white and Asian student body.
I'm actually rather torn about non-related kids calling me by my first name, which would surprise my younger self. There are ways in which I think it's important for kids to recognize dividing lines between themselves and adults (viz. Chopper, above) and it shows a measure of respect that kids should learn. It doesn't have to be "Ms. Kraab." "Miss Sir" is just fine and is how I've generally been introduced to black kids by their parents. I don't know if that's something a lot of Southern whites still do.
I'd never ask other parents to have their kids do this. It's just an idle wish.
I really hate addressing people as Mr./Ms./Dr. Whatever and occasionally risk giving offense by using first names with people who are a little too impressed with their own positions, but I'll make exceptions in the other direction and hope that it comes across as respectful rather than condescending.
344: I don't really care what kids call adults, as long as they can read (talk about idle wishes).
Please pretend that sentence was vaguely grammatical.
women manning
Another sad manifestation of Di & Parenthetical's sir/ma'am confusion.
I'd never ask other parents to have their kids do this. It's just an idle wish.
I'd just casually mention it somewhere where they'll probably stumble across it and make a mental note of it for later.
313: I don't think we disagree, but consider whatever portion(s) of my comment offended you withdrawn.
think it's important for kids to recognize dividing lines between themselves and adults (viz. Chopper, above)
I think you mean "vide Chopper, above", or perhaps "cf. Chopper, above", unless you think that Chopper is the only adult.
think it's important for kids to recognize dividing lines between themselves and adults (viz. Chopper, above)
I think you mean "Everyone except Wolfson".
345: I hate it when it's non-reciprocal, as it often is with doctors and patients, f'rinstance.
That's Miss Punch to you, Kraabie.
Actually I didn't even realize that people insisted that children call them Mr/Ms. Lastname until recently. Now Caroline's BFF's parents are doing it, and it is catching us off-guard.
There are one or two people a generation older that I have trouble calling them by their first name, even though I've met them as adults and we're ostensibly peers.
I went to a open school through grade school, where it was standard practice to call teachers by their first name. I felt pretty strongly about the correctness of this and bristled at being asked to call adults Mr./Mrs.
I was somewhat puzzled by the fact that my African-American neighbors insisted on calling my parents Mr. and Mrs., and it took some explaining on my mother's part to convince me that I ought to follow suit. I just assumed that it was because they were religious, and only later understood that there was some history at play.
360: That's okay, heebie. I don't actually mind that you call me "Mr. M/tch".
My shop teacher in high school called all the boys "Boy" and it really angered some of the black students.
362: I'm just impressed anyone can pronounce the "/"
364: It's pronounced (Mr.) "Dickweed".
363: How truly tone deaf (at best).
363: "But I call everyone 'motherfucker'" is rarely as consoling as it's meant to be.
A little odd that the only time M/lls has a good word for me is when I've caught out his woman in some kind of solecism.
360: Absolutely. It feels so weird to call someone who's over 45-50 by their first name unless I met them in a professional capacity. I still refer to most of my parent's friends by "Dr./Mr./Ms. lastname", with exceptions only made for some of the closest family friends where I slowly moved from "Uncle/Aunt firstname" to just "firstname".
I don't know when I'll be comfortable referring to people my parents' age by their first name, but hopefully it'll happen before I get hitched. Otherwise, I could see some awkwardness with the in-laws.
I'm sure I've had good words for you in other situations, neb.
368: A recondite fetish, to say the least.
re 363, it's a little surprising to me he didn't get schooled on that particular....
359: I figure that if they're old enough to realize that I have a name other than "Nick's dad," they're old enough to use it.
aaaand Caroline just came in and referred to her BFF's mom by her first name.
A little odd that the only time M/lls has a good word for me is when I've caught out his woman in some kind of solecism.
When you find a good word like 'solecism', you should keep it to yourself, not go slinging it around all willy-nilly. This is why M/tch keeps his good words to himself.
374: Are you going to snitch her out to Mr. and Mrs. BFF?
372: I honestly think they may have been embarrassed to speak up about it.
354: Indeed I did mean "vide," Mr. Nosflow. Please accept my sincere thanks for your bringing this error to my attention. Your eagle-eyed monitoring of comments is a tremendous asset to Unfogged. I am sure that other commentors join me in thanking you for this valuable service and in asking you to please continue.
Yours in all gratitude,
Ms. Kraab
I have some perfectly cromulent words that I'm keeping in reserve for when they're really needed.
So if I have this straight:
"Can I have the butter, Mrs. Cleaver?": polite.
"Can I have the butter, June?": rude.
"Please pass the butter, Mrs. Cleaver": rude.
"Please pass the butter, June": really really rude.
I've been doing it ALL WRONG.
As a child I knew exactly one family whose children referred to adults by their first names. The children also called their own parents by their first names. Even the other liberal academic ex-hippies, like my parents, deemed this to be an unbearably extreme affectation.
I definitely got school at one point on saying "May I..." over "Can I..." That one seemed idiotic even at the time.
383: Too lazy to scroll, but I thought there was an assertion upthread that "may" sounds affected.
380: Are you trying to write a screenplay called Last Tango in Mayfield?
381: Real Joey quote: "My daddy is Daddy, or Papa, or Wob."
380: "Could you, Mrs. Cleaver, when you have a moment, and if it isn't too much trouble, see to it that the butter begins to make its way in this direction? Thanks."
384: You say that like it's a bad thing.
Or perhaps just "butter, skank"?
390: We've all seen Last Tango in Paris, NPH.
Dear Ms. Kraab,
I thank you for your recent encouraging comment. Sometimes I wonder whether anyone cares what I do—it is a pleasure to find out that this wonderment is misplaced. I admit, I did more than half suspect that if anyone cared, it would be a fellow stickler (would that we could rid that word of its unpleasant connotations!) such as yourself.
Yours,
Neb Nosflow
The lyrics in 392 are quite something.
A few months ago I made a deliberate decision to start consistently saying "you're welcome" when people thanked me, and I've been quite successful at sticking to it. It's very useful to not have to think about what to say in a situation like this, which for me occurs dozens of times on a typical day. No one has ever objected or seemed to have a problem with it.
392:
"You believe in the touch of viginity
The clammy palms cupping breast milk ...dried
Spread the sticks overheated pots of blasphemy
Burning penis smells of faithful words that...died!"
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. But I think the Butterskank doesn't use Le Creuset cookware.
395: Thanks for your input, teo.
The "ma'am" discussion mentioned in 23 is here.
I detest being addressed as "Mrs. X" or "Ms. X" (the latter being appropriate but for some reason I've gotten to the age where my students automatically call me Mrs.), and especially "Professor X." I dislike my last name and feel no real connection to it; I much prefer that people simply address me by my first, even and especially my students. But this sets an informal tone that can sometimes hamper other aspects of classroom management.
I think as a result of my own preferences I have a hard time remembering that it is polite to use honorifics, except in situations where there is a very, very clear power differential.
and especially "Professor X."
But the awesome mind-control powers! Who wouldn't want to be confused for that dude?
401: If I had awesome mind control powers, I would totally accept the moniker.
386: When I was 5 or 6, someone asked me what my father's whole name was. I said "(Firstname) Daddy Boy (Lastname)" and got offended when everyone laughed.
I have a hard time remembering that it is polite to use honorifics, except in situations where there is a very, very clear power differential
That's when I find it most grating, partly because my experience of people significantly more powerful than I am suggests a fairly strong inverse correlation between being a stickler for honorifics and being worthy of respect.
and especially "Professor X."
Why this especially? It at least has the connection to a particular relationship. I'm assuming you don't run into it much outside the classroom, I guess.
....I am suggests a fairly strong inverse correlation between being a stickler for honorifics and being worthy of respect.
This, definitely.
between being a stickler for honorifics and being worthy of respect.
Agreed, and yet I have noticed that students do react differently depending on how I ask to be addressed. (I get bored and play out experiments with my sections). I get better participation in sections where I go by my first name, better behavior where I go by my last.
408: Try insisting on "Your worshipfulness" or some variant one term, just to see what happens.
405: E.g., Fox News dirigibles ostentatiously vocative Alan Keyes as "Doctor" or "Ambassador."
409 continued ... obviously this should be followed up by a term where you answer only to "duuuuuude", for control.
It at least has the connection to a particular relationship. I'm assuming you don't run into it much outside the classroom, I guess.
Oh, I don't run into it outside of the classroom, not at all. In fact, in the classroom is the only place that I've ever been addressed by Miss/Ms./Mrs./Professor/Dr., unless it's a casual thank you from a clerk looking at the receipt.
I'm pretty sure the aversion to Professor comes from the fact that I do not yet have my Ph.D and even if I am teaching the class I don't quite feel like a 'professor,' so the use of it makes me feel like an impostor. I am just uncomfortable with it and my last name in general; I appreciate students who are polite and am glad they do it.
408: The classroom is a bit different because Mr./Ms./Dr./Professor Whatsit is the conventional form of address, so telling students to use your first name may be conveying the message that you're being permissive generally. That isn't so much the case case among adults interacting in business/professional contexts, at least in the places I've worked.
I haven't had to face the problem of deciding what a class should call me yet (maybe I'll fail to get a faculty job and then I won't have to!). I don't actually remember any classes in college where the professors asked to be called by their first name. But "Doctor" and "Professor" sound so... formal. Maybe I can convince them to call me just by my last name, which I've gone by at various times to distinguish me from everyone else who shares my first name.
so telling students to use your first name may be conveying the message that you're being permissive generally.
I believe so, yes.
Footnote 123 of Infinite Jest, and the text to which it is attached, presents a misleading account of the mean value theorem.
"Mrs. X" or "Ms. X" (the latter being appropriate but for some reason I've gotten to the age where my students automatically call me Mrs.)
I'm a little surprised that there are people who don't always default to "Ms".
Me too, especially among younger people. But I routinely get called Mrs., despite the lack of a wedding ring or any other such signs.
412.last makes sense.
I remember when I was teaching before having a doctorate not knowing quite what students should call me, either. I ended up just introducing myself as [fullname] and letting them work out whatever they were comfortable with, I think. I think the younger you are the more of an issue it may be, and it probably skews to gender too. A fine line between maintaining a professional distance and effective classroom, and coming across as aloof or whatever.
There is a cross-the-pond difference about the titles I've run into people who feel quite strongly that "professor X" should only be used for people who are, in fact, (full) professors.
I ended up just introducing myself as [fullname] and letting them work out whatever they were comfortable with, I think.
I do this too. It is a small problem in that I am female and under-30, so I already skew towards the "to be taken less seriously" side of things. But for all the navel-gazing, my classes generally run exactly the way I'd like them to, so I must project enough authority.
418: but is it because DFW doesn't understand the MVT, or because Pemulis doesn't?
I always introduce myself with my first name at the beginning of my tours. People occasionally address me by first name later on in the tours when asking questions, but it happens rather infrequently and I'm usually a little surprised by it.
I haven't had to face the problem of deciding what a class should call me yet
You've managed to get this far without teaching a course? For some reason that surprises me. Then again, my ph.d program had a teaching component (which could be met other ways, but typically meant a course or two).
(full) professors.
So what's an Assistant Professor to be addressed as? Or does that title not exist in places that have this feeling?
425: Fellowships all through grad school, and an advisor who thought it was more important to spend time on research than to teach a class. (I graded some classes, but never lectured.) And postdocs in my field don't teach. So some day I'll be thrown in front of a classroom with no preparation whatsoever. Fun!
405 -- I am 95 percent sure NPH is talking about judges.
So what's an Assistant Professor to be addressed as?
I presume Dr. X or Mr./Mrs./Ms X as appropriate. I didn't dig far enough to get the details sorted out, and I'm not sure how much overlap there is --- the Assistant/Associate/Full path is pretty north american, afaics.
Here it seems "professor X" is used as a catch all for "person teaching this college course", at least inside the classroom. I suspect that it would be seen as unusual to introduce an adjunct or lecturer as such in a social or professional context outside the classroom, but assistant/associate/full seem to be mashed together.
So some day I'll be thrown in front of a classroom with no preparation whatsoever.
Suddenly, the qualitative differences between the humanities half and the science half of my education make sense.
Pemulis is supposed to be some kind of math whiz, and while the footnote itself is from Pemulis's perspective, the text to which it's attached isn't, so…
I've griped about this before, but conventional lawyer-to-lawyer address, at least in NY, is first-name only: Mr. X or Ms. Y would sound weird. But lots of people don't conventionally use their first names as they appear on their ID: I'm Liz, not Lizard, Samuel might be Sam or might not be, Joseph could be Joe, and so on. Which makes first-naming someone you don't actually know awfully awkward. I end up without a form of address I'm comfortable using -- I really can't call opposing counsel Mr. X without sounding very odd, but calling him Joe without knowing what he calls himself is also odd.
421.last: Yeah, I went off to college assuming that anyone at the front of the classroom should be addressed as "Professor", and as such was flummoxed when I arrived and learned about the passel of academic ranks. It seemed clear to me that a Senior Lecturer should not be called "Prof", but what about an Assistant Professor? I soon realized, like essear (we were at the same school), that no one seemed to care all that much, and that "Dr. X" would cover most all bases. I also developed a feel for what a given faculty member should called. Old grizzled graybeard distinguished chemistry full professor? "Dr. X." Friendly new junior facultyperson? "[Firstname]"
421.3: Yeah, but there are also finer gradations in the titles there than you find in the U.S. At my university, there weren't Assistant, Associate, and Full Professors; there were just Fellows, Lecturers, and Professors (with each of those effectively a subset of the preceding). Only Professors would have Prof. Lastname painted above their door, everyone else would have Dr. Lastname (fellows, lecturers, etc.) or Mr./Mrs. Lastname (grad students, some honorifics).
The really confusing nomenclature is over who gets to be called Mr. In medicine, Mr. was an honorific reserved for surgeons, and it would be a slight for someone who should know that to call them "Dr. Lastname". I think we (liberal arts) reserved "Mr." as an honorific for people who were offered a fellowship before they completed their PhD. It was a pretty damn rare honor, so seeing that above the door of a faculty member let you know they were a pretty heavy hitter early on.
428: Really? IM(Limited)CourtroomE, you'd never know which judges were testy about honorifics and which weren't, because you'd never risk omitting them. "Your Honor" or "Judge" in every sentence, mostly.
431: I do like the phrasing "pure mental reason compels...", and my new goal in life is to slip it into some paper.
428: Nah, I rarely deal with judges outside the courtroom (or in, for that matter), and the ones I know well enough to say hello to on the street are people I worked with before they got the black dresses and still address by first name. I do know some judges who would exemplify 405, but they're not the people I was thinking of.
And postdocs in my field don't teach.
Yeah, I guess I can see how it happens. As noted, it was a (faculty level) requirement to do a bit of teaching in my degree, so we all did it regardless of funding (actually, it was a good deal if you did have an external fellowship, as they just paid you full rate on top, whereas if you didn't it would be just part of your "support"). Overall I think it's a pretty good idea. You got feedback and some help too.
Mr. was an honorific reserved for surgeons, and it would be a slight for someone who should know that to call them "Dr. Lastname"
IIRC That's actually a reverse slight, or a reclaimed slight, in that the lack of "Dr." for surgeons dates back to when they weren't gentry, and weren't entitled to the honorific.
The whole "Dr." thing is only recently a catch all for academics too.
But in the end, who cares? Beyond not offending some nice old faculty member, I'd rather not know anyone who got too stuffy about all that.
It's nice to work in a community where "dude!" is an acceptable form of address.
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I am about to turn this, the bounty of our own personal garden, into pesto.
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And I'll also get through my degree (assuming I do; I passed my adviser crossing the street and he asked for a report tomorrow, so I really shouldn't be posting here) with no real teaching. No undergrads here, so they had us lead about 4 discussion sections for the dental students, and that was our "teaching experience." As Parenthetical suggests, after exposure to this system it becomes clear why college teaching in the natural sciences is of such varied (to put a nice spin on it) quality.
Suddenly, the qualitative differences between the humanities half and the science half of my education make sense.
I believe this is why at [graduate uni] they instituted a teaching requirement!
442: Please register the appropriate amount of jealousy.
442: What is that? Rhubarb? I thought pesto was basil.
I kind of love it that students call me Dr. Geebie. I like the way it maintains boundaries even though we may be palling around.
447: That makes more sense than what I thought.
Especially since the leaves of rhubarb are poisonous.
Having just eaten some chard myself, it was on my mind.
Poison pesto! The kids love it.
I think the only way to guarantee better teaching in the sciences would be to make it an important criterion for hiring, and I don't see any reasonable way to change the culture enough for that to happen.
On the other hand, it was my experience as an undergrad that most of the younger faculty I was taught by were perfectly competent (with one rather spectacular counterexample) while the notably bad professors tended to be fairly old (though the converse was not true; some of the older professors were damned good teachers).
I have many more gripes about curriculum design than about the actual teaching I encountered in science classes.
451: Then what is in rhubarb pie? I thought that was leaves. Of course, I had it once and then never felt like I wanted to try it again, so maybe I was poisoned.
446: Mostly chard and kale, I'm going to go out and get some more basil to put in, to make it taste more traditional. There is also a dandelion leaf or two in there, because when I'm weeding the garden I think "Heck, this is edible. It was originally imported to North America as a food crop. Let's eat it."
455: The stems -- they look rather like pink celery.
455: what are commonly known as the stalks.
I have many more gripes about curriculum design than about the actual teaching I encountered in science classes.
Or perhaps this just indicates that I'm completely out of touch with the student experience and will be universally hated should I ever teach.
I have many more gripes about curriculum design than about the actual teaching I encountered in science classes.
I'm just bitter about the notoriously bad chemistry teachers at my institution; chemistry was horrid until I finally managed to figure out which of the faculty members could teach. Sadly enough, there was only one (and she later was denied tenure for lacking in the publications department). I had to jockey hard to make sure I got her for organic chemistry, and without her I would have been totally lost. (Unlike many things, chemistry is something that I am absolutely unable to learn solely from books - I need it explained).
446--8. Thanks. We didn't eat many different vegetables when I was little.
I think the only way to guarantee better teaching in the sciences would be to make it an important criterion for hiring, and I don't see any reasonable way to change the culture enough for that to happen.
Which is really where the small private teaching colleges do offer an advantage for those who have the means to attend; it's the biggest criterion for tenure at our school.
Then what is in rhubarb pie?
A little bit Megan, a little bit Sherry.
It would be easier if someone conveyed that he wanted to be called "Your honor" by referring to himself as "My honor".
448: I always thought you had a hyphenated first name. Heebie-geebie Punch.
The worst lecturer I ever had -- and I don't have to think twice to decide who that is -- was a math teacher who had the delightful quirk of bursting into a high-pitched giggling fit whenever he forgot the next step in a proof he was working through. Which was roughly once every five minutes, and progressively more often as the end of the hour neared.
463: The SUV was because it was cheapest vehicle we saw with all-wheel drive, side airbags, and room for all of the stuff we needed with the new baby. Gas prices really don't hit us much as we live close to most things. I traded in a 2L econo-box.
465: I can't tell if you're teasing, because I really do have a double first name. But it's not hyphenated, just a run-on one-word double name.
468: Just hassling your Real Murrican-ness.
Sorry, Heebiegeebie Punch. Or "Your most serene majesty"
463: Our other SUV is 15 years old and gets 25 miles to the gallon, so I don't feel that bad out it.
when it's okay to say "You're welcome" yourself,
When someone thanks you for something. Like bringing them a beer, or handing them a pencil, or loaning them a shitload of money. Whatever.
And yes, people who pat themselves on the back for driving Priuses on their 50-mile commutes have some rethinking to do.
Also, hamburger, cream of mushroom soup, a can of green beans, and Tater Tots make a hell of a casserole.
Which is really where the small private teaching colleges do offer an advantage for those who have the means to attend
On the other hand, at least without doing more investigation I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who wants to be a researcher, since most of the researchers I know have pedigrees at top research institutions for both grad school and undergrad. But maybe the rate for people who attend these schools to get into top grad schools is higher than I would guess. (I would guess it's quite low, unless the small private teaching college is Williams or Swarthmore or something of that caliber.)
I haven't seen the phrase "small private teaching colleges" before. Obviously large public colleges are the ones that are non-teaching, but we don't say so.
I wouldn't recommend them to anyone who wants to be a researcher,
Our school is sort of the safety school of safety schools, so these students will have their hopes dashed for more sadly individual reasons.
a fairly strong inverse correlation between being a stickler for honorifics and being worthy of respect
For example, two of the three exceptions to the NYT style guide rule about not using the honorific doctor for non-M.D.'s: Kissinger and Rice. Dr. King is the exception that proves the rule, and I don't even know if he insisted on the honorific himself.
477: "Now, Junior, I know you had your heart set on the University of Phoenix, but you can get just as good an education right down the road at Heebie U."
472: Moby, all of the biographical facts and personal details you have revealed about yourself to date are consistent with the hypothesis that you are my brother. Please state a few more obscure facts about yourself so that I can reassure myself you are not.
442: Rob, chard pesto? Do tell. Tell how you render that into pesto, that is. Cutting it with basil, okay, but otherwise, really? Isn't it going to be bitter? Hm.
I've barely been outside the NE in the US and I always say please, thank you, and even sir and ma'am. I also find it annoying when strangers I'm dealing with in an official capacity address me by my first name, and even more aggravating is that I feel constrained by politeness from saying 'that's Mr. ***** to you' Though the latter probably is the result of spending the second half of my childhood in a French speaking environment. I still remember when I started getting addressed as 'vous' in stores - growing up. On a related note, one of my profs, a fairly old world European, routinely did a thing after orals of telling us grad students that we could now address him by his first name.
478: Mr. Strangelove suggested some strategies that the President might consider, and then, despite the tragic circumstances, ended the meeting on a note of personal triumph.
151: Apparently the meaning is important because the "anonymous donor" who funds our institute will be there.
Will this donor be showing up in a mask? Or just sitting unidentified somewhere in the audience, leaving you all to guess?
will be universally hated should I ever teach
Just pepper your lectures with lots of pleases, your welcomes, and yes ma'ams. People love that sort of thing.
480: Like, for example, if you were to say you smoke grass no more than once per day, that would be a big relief.
http://www.google.com/search?q=chard+pesto
299. The standard Swiss German version of Gruess Gott, is 'Gruetzi'. Gruess Gott is Austrian/South German.
487: Thank you, Apo. I tend to figure that googling for recommended recipes is a non-starter, but I will do that first.
485: And salt them with artisanal sea language.
Also on topic, as a kid I refused to address people in the polite form in Polish. At first that was because I didn't know it - all my parents friends in America were on a first name basis with kids, but later it was deliberate. My poor Polish relatives had to keep explaining to acquaintances, 'he's American, he knows not what he does'. I changed my tune once I got socialized in French.
My mom on the other hand always spoke to her father in the polite form, i.e. third person. (There's variantss - to your father it's 'does father...' , semiformal with an acquaintance would be 'does Mrs. First Name', to a stranger 'does Mrs Last Name...', and to a prof 'does Mrs. Prof. last name' and if in writing the greeting would be 'Greatly honored Mrs Prof. Dr. hab. Last Name' In all these cases, it is routinely shortened to just third person, Mr., Mrs plus honorofic if any. To make it even more formal the words Mr. and Mrs. originally meant lord/lady and only were extended to the bourgeoisie in the nineteenth century, and to other people over the course of the twentieth century.
481, 487, 489: When authorial intent goes wrong.
I give a frightful number of commands. Most of the time people seem to interpret them as I intend them, though on rare occasion I have confounded by people who don't understand that "Please X" means "Do X."
Latest guess: Witt is the CEO of a shadowy organization that secretly runs Pennsylvania. Her staff trembles in terror each time she -- politely! -- issues a command.
480, 486: I never smoke grass. If you are my sibling, you or one of our siblings has just gotten engaged.
And yes, people who pat themselves on the back for driving Priuses on their 50-mile commutes have some rethinking to do.
My problem with SUV's isn't the gas mileage (or lack of it) it's just that most of them are an insult to any engineering sense you might possess. They have got a bit better over time, but not much.
"I never smoke grass" was more than sufficient, thanks.
will be universally hated should I ever teach
essear, I think that basically the "throw them into the deep end" approach actually works. It's probably a rough couple/few terms, but people find their feet. Could it be done better? Sure. Is it a disaster? I don't think so. Departments sort these things out to.
After all, even if you do force your grad students/post docs to teach a course or two, that's still a fraction of the experience your first year would give you at a typical research university..
495: I'm trying to be conciliatory here. Please have some casserole.
But maybe the rate for people who attend these schools to get into top grad schools is higher than I would guess.
I think the rate is quite high for a small number of schools who really are quite good at this. On the other hand, their very design means that they just don't graduate that many people. If your entire undergraduate body is about 3000 students, your numbers are going to be comparable to looking at the top 10% of a 30,000 campus.... so even if you do quite well it's not going to mean we run into them all over the place.
(But I did answer my son's queston about the virtues of Jeeps this morning by explaining that they're mostly useful for adventuring in places where the locals drive 4wd pickups.)
it's the biggest criterion for tenure at our school.
By comparison, the place I most recently talked to is 80% research. With numbers like that, teaching has to take a back seat.
Thank you, Apo.
You're welcome! I had never heard of chard pesto prior to the mention.
Also, hamburger, cream of mushroom soup, a can of green beans, and Tater Tots make a hell of a casserole.
I thought they only ate this stuff in the midwest.
The rural PNW is not free from midwestern cultural influences.
I did answer my son's queston about the virtues of Jeeps this morning by explaining that they're mostly useful for adventuring in places where the locals drive 4wd pickups.
Indeed they are, although they have an unfortunate tendency to flip more often than, say, those pickups.
OT: Does anyone have a scone recipe they're particularly fond of? I was going to make peach-apple muffins for a roadtrip tomorrow, but maybe scones would be better. Thoughts?
502: Perhaps Rob will answer about his chard pesto, because I still wonder about its potential bitterness problems, but I love making pesto, and no, I haven't yet looked at the google results. I don't trust those people. I trust Rob. And I have a lot of chard.
495: My problem with SUV's isn't the gas mileage (or lack of it) it's just that most of them are an insult to any engineering sense you might possess
Damn, I feel badly about this, but is it okay if I drive my mom's SUV, which I have inherited, from now on? It's great for my lower back (my existing car kills my back), and it has numerous neato buttons and stuff for things. I kind of like it. I only commute 11 miles each way.
Seriously, I've been on the fence about this for months. It's a fucking SUV, how can you drive that?! Yes, but. It's free and only has 40,000 miles on it, it won't break down on me, unlike a certain other vehicle I know, it is extremely comfortable, and it makes me feel calm, in part because it was my mom's car. I'm just going to make it my own, I think. Maybe I should decorate it with hippie things by way of apology.
It is absolutely okay if you drive the SUV, parsimon.
505: My comments were not intended as praise. We are pickup people (when such things are called for; here, we're four-door sedan people).
I'm a four-door sedan person myself, and at work I tend to drive the park's Chevy Corsica (which everyone seems to hate) rather than the fancy, new Jeep Liberty (which everyone loves, to the extent that whenever I do drive it everyone else is always clamoring to borrow it).
My personal vehicle, however, is actually an SUV, a GMC Jimmy acquired under circumstances similar to parsimon's. I kind of hate it, but it was a gift from some relatives, and it works well enough for my purposes.
506: This is my go to scone recipe. It holds up well to all kinds of additions.
I hate that my car is painted midnight blue, with matching interior. What the hell was I thinking, buying a dark car as I was moving to 100+ degree climates?
515 certainly delivers what it promises.
516: That you get named King of the Foodies if can pull it out?
517: No, but that'll at least cut down on the baby scones.
Well, I did something, anyhow. I'm not sure if it will work out, but we'll see! That kind of recipe is pretty flexible, I think.
At one point in my life I had an incredible scone recipe, but I've forgotten what I did with it. That's what the wiki's for, dammit!
I like this scone recipe.
I am inclined to trust your taste in such things, but boy is the accompanying photo not confidence inspiring.
Yeah, those are some pretty unappealing scone photos. Ghyeck.
Very fine onomatopoeia there.
In real life the results have always looked much better.
OT: You know it's bad when public employee unions are willing to propose a 5% across-the-board pay cut as something like an opening bid.
Rob's chard pesto is not bitter. It is garlicky. He's still blending batches and I think freezing some. I wasn't watching too closely, but I would bet on a blender full of loosely packed greens, including chard, kale, and basil, add about 1/2 c. olive oil, maybe 6 garlic cloves, throw in some nuts that we have lying around (pecans and hazelnuts have been used), and then cheese, maybe 1/2 c (ok 1 c), grated. Parmesan would be traditional, but we have a bunch of baby swiss to get rid of, so baby swiss it is. Then I bet he turns on the blender, not much happens, then pours in more oil to get the thing to whir around. TaDa!
that's Mr. ***** to you'
And this whole time you've been commenting, I thought you were a woman. Huh. Now I'm trying to figure out why I thought that. Perhaps I converted the first part of your name into "Teresa."
I vaguely recall posting my lemon scone recipe on the wiki ages ago. I like it a lot -- made with yogurt, it's quite moist without being too greasy. Of course I've now lent the recipe book to a friend and I don't want to reconstruct from memory, although I'm fairly confident I could do so.
Something else that affects the first name/last name question is complex or difficult-to-pronounce names. A lot of people will punt and go for the first name if they're sufficiently intimidated by the last (or vice versa, but I've seen that less often).
496: I've heard good things about it. I'm just too old for new vices.
525: Thanks, Molly! I will experiment with it. We have so-called "new garlic" from the CSA, stronger than seasoned garlic. Woo.
Damn, I feel badly about this, but is it okay if I drive my mom's SUV, which I have inherited, from now on?
Of course it is! Don't be silly. The real issues with these things are at the policy level, not the personal, if you will. Sure, there are other general purpose vehicles that often (but not always) are probably better for any given situation if not any budget ... but that's irrelevant to you -- you've got what you've got and getting rid of it won't help anything. Unless it's one of the (relatively rare these days) stupidly high center of mass ones, you've no safety worries unless you do things you ought not try.
If what you're worried about is an environmental impact, well, there's lots of things you can do that will more than counter any excess there, if it's bothering you.
We have so-called "new garlic" from the CSA, stronger than seasoned garlic.
This must be something different than what I call new garlic, as the sort I am familiar with (green garlic) is much milder. I am learning all sorts of things today.
I currently have multiple bunches of garlic curing in my utility closet, as my CSA gave us the year supply for drying over the last few weeks. Every time I see it, I snicker and think of how unpalatable the closet would be to a vampire.
At one point in my life I had an incredible scone recipe, but I've forgotten what I did with it.
Me too. Although I think I probably know where it is, and should seek it out. It produces scones very like the ones common in southwest England. Of course then I'll start jonesing for clotted cream, along with cold, wet miserable weather, for maximum scone +tea enjoyment. I should probably wait for winter to undertake this project.
If what you're worried about is an environmental impact, well, there's lots of things you can do that will more than counter any excess there, if it's bothering you.
You're talking about parsimon pushing it to work, right?
Paren: new garlic is already differentiated into individual cloves with papery coverings, only it's—well—still young, as garlic goes. Green garlic is younger yet.
Actually, sometimes green garlic has proto-cloves as well, discernible when it's cut hemispherically, but it usually doesn't have much in the way of a papery outer covering.
Me too. Although I think I probably know where it is, and should seek it out. It produces scones very like the ones common in southwest England. Of course then I'll start jonesing for clotted cream, along with cold, wet miserable weather, for maximum scone +tea enjoyment. I should probably wait for winter to undertake this project.
Not to undertake the finding and then the sharing, please! I have some extremely appropriate strawberry preserves for consuming with scones of such a type.
new garlic is already differentiated into individual cloves with papery coverings, only it's--well--still young, as garlic goes.
Ah, gotcha. That's what's hanging in my closet. I haven't eaten it yet...but in the past I think I've treated new garlic much like green garlic without noticing an appreciable difference.
That's what's hanging in my closet.
Keeps the moths out while giving your clothes a subtly seductive perfume.
535: Will do, but I think it's in my parents' garage in a filing cabinet serving as a book repository. So at least not until this weekend.
Hooray! Thanks. I sure do like a nice attested proper scone.
539: You're welcome! Or will be, I guess.
and even more aggravating is that I feel constrained by politeness from saying 'that's Mr. ***** to you'
But the problem for me is that if I'm constrained by custom to be on first name terms with some salesman I wouldn't willingly let into the house, I'm deprived of a mode of address which denotes, "Greetings, friend, I am happy that I can relax around you."
Parsi-
On the SUV front, you should feel no guilt at all. Once the silly thing has been manufactured, the environmentally best outcome is that someone who needs a car should drive it (rather than it being junked), but not much, and that means someone like you should own it. Buying one new would be bad because that encourages companies to make bad cars; buying one used would be bad because it supports the resale value of SUVs and encourages other people to buy them new. Driving one without paying for it is the best thing you could do with it if you're going to drive at all.
542: "Driving one without paying for it is the best thing you could do..."
Officer, this is the most environmentally sound way for me to get an Explorer. Can I at least have my slim jim back?
Driving one without paying for it is the best thing you could do
IT'S ALSO THE BEST WAY TO EAT SUSHI!
AND TO READ THIS BOOK!
BUT DON'T FORGET TO COMPOST IT AFTERWARDS!
SUV composting (the actual SUVs are hidden in the middle).
Would you use a pitch fork or a digging fork to turn that compost pile?
