Re: I'm not unfaithful, but I'll stray.

1

I've implemented a strict bedtime of 10 pm, since school started. Depressingly, I'm still exhausted when Hawaiian Punch wakes up in the morning. I'm either going to have to move it even earlier, or maybe not co-sleep. Or just be tired.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:26 PM
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How old is she? Four months or so? This is actually a pretty good time to think about quitting co-sleeping. You don't have to; she won't take any harm from sleeping with you for a long time.

But you do have a window of opportunity now; she's old enough that she probably doesn't wake up too often in the night, and young enough to make the transition without noticing it much. If you leave her in bed with you much longer, it might turn into a real project to get her to sleep in her own bed. (Not to comment on your sex life, but having a toddler/pre-schooler expecting to co-sleep is brutal in that regard, I've heard.)

And you'll probably sleep better.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:30 PM
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Sex is fine, thanks! Because we just screw in front of her because we put her down in her crib, and then transfer her to bed when we're getting ready to sleep. But you're right - she's the reason my sleep is so terrible. Little miss squirmy even in her swaddle.

I think I need to wait until I adjust a little more to being a working parent. Right now I'm co-sleeping mostly because I miss her.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:41 PM
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If you're limiting your intake of coffee, you might as well be precious about it so that you're drinking stuff that's actually made to your liking.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:45 PM
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Sex is fine, thanks!

Not to be the voice of doom, but now's not so much the problem. The problem is if you're still co-sleeping next year or later. I know an alarming number of couples where the family sleeping pattern through the pre-school years turned into one parent in the parent's bed with the kid, and the other parent, unable to sleep under those circumstances, on the couch or in the kid's bed.

At four months you still have plenty of slack, but you want to think seriously about this before eight or nine months.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:49 PM
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Sex is fine, thanks!

Cream or sugar?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:50 PM
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I love that song.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:51 PM
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5: Oh, I just meant that she's always going down for the night in her crib, which presumably is a permanent pattern. But yeah, the getting out of bed and into Mom and Dad's bed would be a problem.

Cosleeping is kind of bizarrely novel to me, because I never, ever would have gotten in bed with my parents.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:53 PM
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7: Me, too, assuming you're talking about the song I think you're talking about.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:54 PM
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For infants, if you're breastfeeding, it's so incredibly more convenient that I'd be surprised if there were many parents who didn't co-sleep some. But doing it when the kid is old enough to remember is different.

I wouldn't ever have gotten in bed with my parents at night -- weekend mornings, though, when I was little, we traditionally went in and snuggled and kept them from sleeping late.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 2:56 PM
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And while hurriedly trying to get a 3:55pm cup of coffee down the gullet before the cutoff doesn't technically violate the letter of this rule, it certainly feels like I'm cheating.

To the original post, I don't think you're violating the spirit of the law. It's like it's last call. It's fine to buy a giant round at last call.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:07 PM
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But doing it when the kid is old enough to remember is different.

At what age does it become a hanging crime?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:11 PM
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but I'm standing by it.

Posting while standing next to a personal coffee maker, very SW ...um... coastal.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:12 PM
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Maybe I should start drinking coffee after 4:00. I'm lucky to make 8:30 nowadays.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:13 PM
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12: Huh. I can't think of an age at which it would be a problem for the kid, rather than an inconvenience for the parents. Mostly I meant that infant co-sleeping is something that (I would guess) almost everyone does some of, but once you get into older babies, toddlers, and beyond it's more of a distinct choice.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:15 PM
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At what age does it become a hanging crime?

I want to know this, too. With sourcing, ideally.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:16 PM
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Ask and ye shall receive.


Posted by: ari | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:17 PM
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Caffeine is such a pain. I used to consume enough of it that it didn't do anything to keep me awake. The only noticeable caffeine-related effect that I used to see was that if I didn't have any, I would get terrible headaches.

These days I've cut back enough that it can sometimes keep me awake, but I still get headaches without it, and if I have some late enough I might get to sleep fine but then suddenly wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning. I need to find some sensible regime in between mainlining and the stuff and not having it at all, where the effects remain predictable.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:19 PM
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-and


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:19 PM
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7: Me, too, assuming you're talking about the song I think you're talking about.

That which you reference in the post title, of course.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:25 PM
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12: reads 33% more snippy and 25% less lighthearted than I'd intended...

I do think the argument that co-sleeping ruins your sex-life is overwrought. There are plenty of places to have sex that are not the bed. And plenty of parents fail to have sex even though the kid is in another room. I firmly believe if you want to have sex with your spouse, and if that desire is mutual, you do. We don't have sex because of the kids strikes me as a convenient excuse. (See also,ca. 2005, "Oh, UNG and I have separate bedrooms now because of his apnea.")


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:26 PM
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21: That's plausible too. That's what the couples I know blame it on, but that doesn't mean it's the real cause.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:33 PM
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To the OP - Are you lying in bed unable to sleep? I mean, I had to give up caffeine six months ago and I still don't get to bed at a reasonable hour.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:41 PM
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if I have some late enough I might get to sleep fine but then suddenly wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning

Even if it doesn't keep me from sleeping, the quality of my sleep is much worse when I've had a lot of caffeine. I'm on a no-coffee-after-noon plan, but if I've had several cups in the morning I can tell later. It would probably be better for me to give it up completely, but I just don't want to.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:45 PM
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Ψ
OK, I've been looking for this number and it is even worse than I feared (assuming it is correct).

Number of Bush US Attorneys that have been replaced: just five of the 93 Bush put in place.

From Don Siegelman at Kos.
Ψ


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:49 PM
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25: WTF! It's the end of August! Jesus, I had no idea. Christ Almighty what is wrong with Obama?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:52 PM
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Obama is useless.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:52 PM
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That which you reference in the post title, of course

Indeed.

Are you lying in bed unable to sleep?

No. My problem is an overwhelming ability to convince myself that I'm not tired yet. Too much caffeine late in the day stretches that ability even farther.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:54 PM
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Politicians aren't supposed to be useful; they are supposed to dramatize the desires and status anxieties of the sort of people who get a thrill out of attending inaugural balls.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:55 PM
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I haven't been paying attention to this at all. Are Obama's nominees held up in the Senate? In which case it's not his fault, but Norm Coleman, and all forty Republican Senators, should burn eternally.

My instant reaction was thinking he just hadn't appointed people, which would have been his fault.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:55 PM
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My problem is an overwhelming ability to convince myself that I'm not tired yet.

Two hours of biking a day solves this problem nicely. Around ten, I have a tendency to break off in the middle of a conversation with Buck by saying "I have to sleep now". And then I fall over.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:56 PM
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30: I'm trying to verify the number and see if they have been named but just not confirmed. No luck yet, but did find this tidbit, If the first U.S. Attorney selections from Obama do come in the next few weeks, he will still be ahead of Bush's timetable. He proposed his first U.S. Attorneys on August 1, 2001.. So maybe not so out of the norm.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:58 PM
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||

Who says that Republican judges don't let empathy derived from their inform their jurisprudence?

|>


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 3:59 PM
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||

Let me try again:

Who says that Republican judges don't let empathy derived from their personal experience inform their jurisprudence?

|>


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:00 PM
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32: And here's one of the purest examples of concern trolling I've ever seen (but from the WSJ so it's cheating a bit),

"I would caution the Obama administration against making wholesale removals of U.S. attorneys," said Mark Paoletta, who served in George H.W. Bush's Office of Presidential Personnel and in the White House counsel's office. Such a move, he said, "would unfortunately give the appearance of politicizing these law enforcement positions."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:01 PM
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35; I am not-quite-literally-but-surprisingly-close-to spitting with rage at that. What an incredible dick.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:03 PM
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The problem is that caffeine has a pretty long serum half-life, as over-the-counter drugs go, about 5 hours on average -- compare to 3 hours for aspirin, or 2 hours for ibuprofen (or 12 hours for just one all-day Aleve), while at the same time, caffeine levels in coffee vary wildly. A large Starbucks coffee, for instance, has about four times as much caffeine as a normal cup of drip coffee.

The upshot is that if you accidentally ingest twice as much caffeine as you usually do, it'll take an additional five hours for the caffeine levels in your blood to fall to the point where you can get to sleep, irrespective of when you drink it.

My advice is to switch to cocaine.


Posted by: apk01004 | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:04 PM
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Now, about these fancy desk caffeinators... I find that tea-leaves stew in a press. I like the (lower caffeine?) second washings. I used to have a good cheap teapot that lifted the filter into the lid, but I broke it, and it was a no-brand I can't find again. So; am I stuck with lifitng off the hot drippy filter with my fingertips?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:13 PM
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34: Wouldn't it be nice to see that extended to suspects who aren't professional athletes? "The warrant said you could only search for weapons. Sorry, but you'll have to ignore the ppot you find in the same drawer"

3d: "Well duh," seems like a great response.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:14 PM
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38: I think Bodum makes some teapots like you describe for fairly cheap (I got mine at Target for around $15-$20).


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:15 PM
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3d=35


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:16 PM
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At what age does it become a hanging crime?

My friend the babysnatcher who works for Child Protective Services says they start looking real hard at the situation when the kid is 7.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:18 PM
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Huh. Who knew there was an answer?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:21 PM
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Me.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:21 PM
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Two hours of biking a day solves this problem nicely.

This really would help. August has been shit for getting in much excercise.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:24 PM
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42: Did she say why?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:24 PM
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Two hours of biking a day solves this problem nicely.

I can imagine. I still say, that's a lot of riding. When I had a bike commute that was ~40min each way, I definitely wasn't getting much done in the evenings (still didn't completely eliminate insomnia but . . . ).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:27 PM
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40: I had one of the Bodum glass teapots, and although I liked the filter mechanism and the ability to see the tea, I will pass along the warning (previously made here, I'm sure) that after a certain number of uses, the glass teapot will inevitably explode in your hand. You'll be going to set it down gently, or filling it with water or something, and suddenly parts will start cracking and falling off. It's pretty and light, that thin thin glass, but it also gets extremely weak after several months of use.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:29 PM
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No. The way I heard was that a roommate's young daughter occasionally stayed the weekend, and slept in the same bed as him and his girlfriend. The daughter was nine, and my babysnatcher friend mentioned offhand that they considered age seven to be the cut-off for that.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:29 PM
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48: Oh yeah, that's totally true. I'm a light tea drinker, only on the weekends, so it's made it through several years.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:32 PM
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46: Medieval age of reason, surely?

48: Huh. The Bodums I have squeeze the leaves instead of lifting them out of the water. Will look, thanks.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:55 PM
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51: Here's one somewhat similar to what I have, but, if you're a heavy user you'll probably not want something quite so fragile.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 4:58 PM
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||

Mark Thoma says the Bush tax cuts will be made permanent by Obama next year. I am not yet completely satisfied with his sourcing.

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 5:48 PM
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This is the one I had. I liked it and used it every day until, you know.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 6:03 PM
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This thread could have focused on Heebie's sex life and instead it sticks with sleeping?

People!!


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 7:32 PM
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55: Maybe this thread focused on heebie's sex life in our minds, Will. Did you ever think of that?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 8:15 PM
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What is in your mind? I try not to think about that.


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 8:19 PM
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I still get headaches without it.

Excedrin is the answer, or so I'm told. A little caffeine + pain reliever. I don't get caffeine headaches myself.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 8:36 PM
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55: Sleeping and steeping, anyway.

I use this one at work and haven't had any fragility issues yet. You can flip the lid over and it makes a nice holder for the infuser if you're going to drink the pot fast enough that you're not worried about heat conservation (though I usually drink slowly myself).

However, if you're drinking a tea with small leaves or an herbal tea, the holes in the infuser may be too large. I found that out after I got the pot and therefore picked up one of these, which isn't as pretty as the glass-on-glass setup but gets the job done without burning any fingers. I'm not sure I'd recommend buying the Bodum in the first instance if you generally drink teas that wouldn't work with the infuser.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 8:48 PM
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Infusers? Bah. Brew the tea at home in a proper pot with no internal constraints so that the tea leaves can enjoy their agony fully, unfurling freely and gloriously the way God and the Queen intended.

Then, pour the tea through a strainer into a pre-heated thermos and take that to work. You can even add any milk or sweeteners that you like at this stage, to avoid having to have a separate stash at work. You've got excellent hot tea on demand, and no muss or fuss at the office. At home, you can dump the spent leaves onto your compost pile.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:14 PM
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I've had one of the gold filters since the mid-80s, that is, the same one; now bent, cracked, in some places broken, but still useful.

Maybe a Brown Betty and a cozy of nice scraps.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:15 PM
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61: I do love my Brown Betty. I've had her since the late 80s and use her almost daily.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:16 PM
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No cozy, though. Thermos.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:17 PM
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At home, you can dump the spent leaves onto your compost pile.

Then settle in for a nice evening of watching Mad Men and pointing out all the inaccuracies.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:17 PM
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60: but I live on what I must deduce is the *other* ocean, and good tea -- while I agree that it must have room to writhe -- ought to be good for three or four steepings. Can't be leaving it at home, wonderful though it is for the roses (plain mulch, no composting).

A better work kettle and my guywan, maybe.

(Trying to make you feel less precious, heebie.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:17 PM
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That heebie character just gets all the credit around here. Sheesh.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:20 PM
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Stanley is right!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:30 PM
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I admired your post title, Stanley.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:33 PM
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64: I console myself over the lack of cable with cups of really awesome tea.

but I live on what I must deduce is the *other* ocean

I live deep in the heart of Texas. No ocean for miles, although Austin is a blue island in a red sea.

and good tea -- while I agree that it must have room to writhe -- ought to be good for three or four steepings.

Good green tea, certainly. I don't like the taste of resteeped black tea at all. Tastes, literally, fishy.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:35 PM
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You just go right ahead and feel as precious as all get out, Stanley. We'll support you (in e-mail).


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:36 PM
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Yeah, goddammit. That's more like it.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:39 PM
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67: Never mind.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:42 PM
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72: The very wind from my sails.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:46 PM
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The wiry sand from my veils.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 9:48 PM
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How can sand be wiry?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 10:21 PM
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When it's spun into glass?


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 10:23 PM
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My veiny sins and my wails.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 10:25 PM
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Fried venison and snails.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 10:39 PM
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Heinous gin in jails.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 10:42 PM
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I'm not welcome, but I think I'll stay.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-27-09 11:00 PM
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We have one of those Bodum glass tea pots, but the one we have is double-walled. We've had it a year or so and it shows no sign of cracking or getting damaged. On the other hand, the little desktop coffee maker I have [basically identical to the one linked in the original post] fell apart after 6 months.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:11 AM
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78: Yes, please.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:17 AM
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Thy benison enfrails, noel, noel.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:50 AM
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I'm not staid, but I am welcoming.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 5:13 AM
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Laydeez.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 5:13 AM
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I'm not afraid that I'm velcroing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 6:58 AM
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87: I dunno, that ripping noise can be pretty frightening.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:16 AM
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But episiotomies are worse.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:19 AM
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Just put a little velcro down there, you'll be fine.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:21 AM
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Vagina velcrata!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:22 AM
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I'm not veldt bound, but I think I'm prey.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:26 AM
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I'm not a dentist, I just brush a lot.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:28 AM
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Gino thanks you.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:29 AM
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WHAT AM I, CHOPPED LIVER???


Posted by: OPINIONATED DENTAL FLOSS | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:30 AM
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He's just a big cat, not an oce a lot.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:31 AM
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I don't like big butts, I just mix-a-lot.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:32 AM
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I'm not nursing, I just pump a lot. Sigh.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:32 AM
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96: LIAR!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:35 AM
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I don't like boils, so I lance a lot.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:36 AM
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I'm not an anglophile. Such claims are tommyrot.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:36 AM
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I just speak English, I'm not a polyglot.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:39 AM
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Not twatwaffle?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:39 AM
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I can be sold, but I can't be bought.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:40 AM
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I can keep rhyming, but it might be fraught.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:41 AM
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I tend to drink coffee in cycles, and I have for years. (Or at least, I used to.) First I have a little in the morning - from the cafeteria here at work, that's a 12 oz. cup - for a few days, but then a morning comes along when I have a lot to get done or when I was up late the night before and I have a little more - here, a 16 oz. cup. After I get acclimated to having a medium cup in the morning, another day comes along when I need extra and I have a large cup. Then, eventually, I have a soda or iced coffee in the afternoon, more to have something to drink than for the caffeine specifically.

And then, by Saturday afternoon or Sunday, I'll have a dull, constant headache. I think this is because I got used to a certain amount of caffeine and then I haven't had any yet for a day or two, because I usually don't have any on the weekends. This makes me realize I need to cut back to one small cup in the mornings. Caffeine is more addictive to me than cigarettes, dammit.

More directly on-topic, I don't see anything wrong with a cup at the last minute before the 4 p.m. deadline. As somebody said upthread, caffeine has a relatively long half-life, but if that causes problems with your sleep - and I wouldn't think so in the first place - it's just a matter of setting the deadline earlier. If the goal of the 4 p.m. cutoff is simply sleep, why bring guilt and self-denial into it at all?


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:41 AM
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I don't speak twatwaffle. At least not fluently.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:41 AM
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I'm not racist, oh look—Trent Lott.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:42 AM
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I speak Russian, and I don't clot a lot.


Posted by: Alexei Nikolaevich | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:42 AM
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Sorry to break up the rhyming pattern, but my rap skillz are for naught.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:42 AM
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I don't speak twatwaffle. At least not fluently.

You can get by with a few words and lots of gesticulation. Most twatwaffles speak some English and are eager to practice.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:44 AM
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You can get by with a few words and lots of gesticulation.

Also, you can just put a little velcro down there.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:45 AM
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I think this is because I got used to a certain amount of caffeine and then I haven't had any yet for a day or two, because I usually don't have any on the weekends.

This sounds to me like a reason to drink coffee on the weekends as well, rather than a reason to give it up all week.

I have a fairly happy, uncomplicated relationship with caffeine. I drink a lot in the morning, and some in the rest of the day when I want it, and at night when I'm hanging around with my mother or going out to dinner, both 'after dinner coffee mandatory' situations. The deal is I don't mess around with coffee by pretending I can skip a day, and it doesn't mess around with me by affecting my sleep habits, it just wakes me up and keeps me from stabbing people. Everyone's happy, nobody loses.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:49 AM
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This sounds to me like a reason to drink coffee on the weekends as well, rather than a reason to give it up all week.

Exactly.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:50 AM
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I find that even a very minor amount of caffeine will ward off withdrawal headaches on a day when I'm not following my normal caffeine intake regime, as long as I consume it at the first sign of onset of a headache.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:53 AM
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I am _exactly_ like LB, in 112.

I tend to drink a couple of fairly large mugs first thing in the morning, and then I might have another one or two small cups through the day, other than that I don't have any in the evening except for rare 'after dinner' coffee if I'm out. But I stick to the routine at weekends, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:55 AM
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112
This sounds to me like a reason to drink coffee on the weekends as well, rather than a reason to give it up all week.

Indeed, I do that sometimes. But doing so with any regularity would either require buying a coffee-making apparatus of some kind or regularly mooching off my roommates by using theirs. We get along fine and everything, but it's not a habit I want to get into.

114: Thanks for the tip. I guess I could always get in the habit of having a soda on Sundays. Worse for my teeth, I guess, but absent any other changes in my routine at all it's probably the easiest option.

(Also, "give it up" should be "cut back." But anyways.)


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:56 AM
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Yeah, I don't need to drink my normal amount of coffee every day, I just need some, reasonably soon after I wake up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 7:57 AM
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116: Tea? One of those little one cup drip cone numbers (plastic cone that sits on a mug, put a filter in it with a scoop of coffee, pour boiling water through it)? Instant, much as it pains me to suggest? Heck, if you're really resistant to buying apparatus, cowboy coffee is surprisingly okay if you don't mind a little grounds in your cup (boil water in pot, turn off and dump an appropriate number of scoops of coffee in it, let it sit for a bit to settle and pour carefully).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:00 AM
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116: Have you considered tea bags? They don't make great tea, but they do make just one cup without the need for any special apparati.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:01 AM
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118, 119: never thought about it that much. I'm a man of simple pleasures. I also basically don't cook at all these days (I used to, but not so much any more). Don't judge me, SWPL!


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:07 AM
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Clearly I need more caffeine if I'm to have any chance whatsoever of avoiding further LBwnage.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:08 AM
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120: I've got a great recipe for boiled water if you need it.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:08 AM
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Instant, much as it pains me to suggest?

One of the mysteries of Chilean culture that I never fully understood was the near-universal fondness of Nescafé. I spent my entire time there thinking, "People! PEOPLE! Colombia's like right up there. You can do much, much better."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:09 AM
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123: Maybe it's kind of like the traditional English policy of enthusiastically savoring bad food, just to piss of the neighboring French?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:13 AM
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re: 123

Ditto in Turkey. Every place where we went served Nescafe. I presume there were places doing 'Turkish' coffee, but 99% of the coffee offered was Nescafe.

re: 124

You know the whole Americans slagging of British food thing is entirely ill-conceived. Traditional British food is pretty good.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:16 AM
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One of those little one cup drip cone numbers (plastic cone that sits on a mug, put a filter in it with a scoop of coffee, pour boiling water through it)?

I have one of these at work- it's so simple I don't know what I did without it. Everybody else seems to think it's the height of sophistication, which puzzles me somewhat.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:19 AM
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125.1: Same in Greece. You could get espresso drinks, or Greek/Turkish coffee, but Nescafe was wildly popular.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:24 AM
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Ditto in Turkey.

Also Greece.

Traditional British food is pretty good.

Traditional British food is excellent. I was referring more to stuff like the exaggerated expressions of enthusiasm for fried things from the chipshop. Not that such fare doesn't hit the spot sometimes, and not that it's actually only done to tweak the French. It's really more of a yobs vs. snobs thing / class thing I suppose.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:25 AM
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Josh is pwning me now? Oy.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:25 AM
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128: same with South Africa. The coffee on board South African Airways is Nescafe -- even in business class! In the front of the plane they serve it with appropriate ceremony, letting you watch as they carefully tear apart the foil satchel and pour the steaming water over the crystals.


Posted by: KR | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:31 AM
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I'm on parade in the turbo ring.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:45 AM
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Oops, 131 -> 86. Sheesh, you go do actual work for a couple of hours and look what happens.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 8:47 AM
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Coffee is my fondest ritual of the day. I love my morning coffee so dearly. Basically, I function like LB and ttaM above, caffeine-wise.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:07 AM
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133: While I take great pleasure in the drinking of coffee or tea, particularly in the morning, I do actually also enjoy the process of making it, particularly tea. There are all these little tasks and movements involved that, despite the fact that I've done them countless times before, over decades, are subject to ever-greater optimization.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:16 AM
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125:

Turkish coffee was probably more widely available than it seemed, since waitstaff will typically offer Nescafé to foreigners by default (and will sometimes buck if a tourist tries to order Turkish coffee). Outside the touristed districts, and in smaller towns, it's often not available. It's also increasingly the case that it's not offered in good restaurants either, since in recent years it's become a basic plank of the Turkish version of swipple to disdain Nescafé and drink only the real thing.


Posted by: bizzah | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:18 AM
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Stupple?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:23 AM
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I haven't had my morning cup yet so I'm not sure who I'm pwned by, even though I just read the thread.

I like a double shot of espresso in the morning and a single shot in the early afternoon. This is actually a pretty small dose of caffeine, and it doesn't work all the time. Occasionally I will switch over to brewed coffee and get wacky wired.

I really like my espresso maker. God love a bridal registry.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:25 AM
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Constantinpple.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:25 AM
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Was once Istanipple.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:28 AM
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I guess I'm like 112 without the after dinner cup. I was a little pained when I had to admit that it was decaf after 5 except in situations when I wanted to stay up late.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:28 AM
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"Istanipple" recalls to me another Nestle product besides Nescafe. Boycott!


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:30 AM
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When in Turkey, I just add a little milk to my Nescafe from my Instanipple.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:30 AM
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142: I hear that's a good fix for Constantipation, too.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:34 AM
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I now have an image of Glenn Reynolds suckling in my head. Thanks a lot.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:36 AM
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There is no relief from the steady toll of Constantipation.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:36 AM
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M/tch isn't rude, he just thanks a lot.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:37 AM
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"Constantipation . . . it's making me wait"


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:37 AM
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146: It goes hand in hand with being welcoming.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:37 AM
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Hmm. This may be a good place to solicit recommendations. I think my coffee maker is on its last legs. It swallows a cup or more of water each brew -- I pour in water for 6 cups, get 4 cups back out. And if the pot isn't propped in there just so, it backs up and runs all over the counter (it's got that feature where you can pull the pot out to pour a cup before it finishes brewing, but it thinks the pot's not there so then the filter basket fills up, overflows, and what little coffee makes it to the pot is filled with grounds).

What kind of coffee maker do I really want when I replace it? Mostly, I'm just making coffee for me, sometimes Rory, every other year for a holiday dinner...


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:39 AM
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149: If you're only making coffee every other year, you should just get take-out.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:41 AM
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149: For drip makers, I don't think there's much difference in terms of the quality of the coffee -- hot water through grounds and a filter gets you coffee as good as your grounds, and the device is unimportant. So a 19.99 Mr Coffee brewer (the maker of choice chez the Breath household ) works fine for coffee, and anything else you're shopping for esthetics and features, rather than better coffee.

On features, what I've seen lately is no-pot makers, the coffee drips into an internal tank and dispenses one cup at a time. Those look neat.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:45 AM
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Why continue this coffee addiction if it causes such trouble? Why? WHY!?


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:48 AM
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Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:49 AM
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To expand on that -- the mechanism for keeping already brewed coffee hot is a real difference, and I think the internal tank works better than a pot on a heater to keep the coffee hot without burning it. No difference at the first cup, but your third cup might taste better out of a niftier machine.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:49 AM
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Personally, I prefer a cafetiere for home. I have one that's a double-walled steel jug, with a lid with the press on it.

Like this:

http://portal.bodum.com/pic/picture_434/10743-16.jpg

At work I either use a little caffetiere or the drip/filter machine that's here.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:49 AM
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I've got one that drips into a thermos-carafe, rather than a glass-carafe sitting on a burner. I love this feature.

Also I don't quite agree with LB that all drip makers are created equal. I think you sometimes get crappy chemicals in your coffee with the cheap ones.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:49 AM
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hot water through grounds and a filter gets you coffee as good as your grounds, and the device is unimportant

Actually, water temp makes a significant difference, and some models get the water hotter than others before dumping it on the grounds. I usually heat up water on the stove to near boiling before adding it to the reservoir, so that what passes through the grounds is up in the 190 degree range, and the difference in flavor is noticeable.

Also, the one Sir K and I got this past year has a stainless steel vacuum carafe instead of a glass pot. I like that for a number of reasons. One, there's no heating element under the pot, so the coffee maker just shuts off once it's done and we don't have to remember to shut it off. Two, the coffee stays nice and hot and doesn't get bitter due to prolonged heating and air exposure. And three, the pot won't shatter if you accidentally bump it against the side of the sink while washing it or filling it up.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:50 AM
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149: Have you tried running a strong solution of water and vinegar (say, 50-50) through the machine? It might be choked up with calcified deposits, which are dissolved by acid. Don't forget to run plain water through it a couple of times afterwards before you try brewing coffee in it.


Posted by: PP | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:51 AM
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I think you sometimes get crappy chemicals in your coffee with the cheap ones.

? Like, how? Cheaper ones are made of different plastic that leaches into the coffee, or what? If it's different plastic you're thinking about, that seems implausible as a big enough difference to taste. The filter's the same piece of paper, and the water's the same water. Am I missing something?

(Possibly what you're thinking of is that there's a relationship between a coffee maker being cheap and not being cleaned regularly -- someone with a million dollar coffee maker cleans it, someone with a cheap thing doesn't. But that's not the coffee maker's fault.)

155: I've never gotten to like french press coffee -- while I spoke well of cowboy coffee above, I don't really like grounds in my cup, and french press coffee always seems to have grounds.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:53 AM
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152: Such trouble? What are you talking about?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:54 AM
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157: Actually, water temp makes a significant difference, and some models get the water hotter than others before dumping it on the grounds.

Fair enough, but is water temperature a systematic price difference? Might be, but if it was I didn't know it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:55 AM
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161: I don't know whether it's a systematic price difference or not, but I was responding to your "device is unimportant" assertion. When we (i.e. Sir K) were researching what to buy, we found brewing temp info for various models on, I think, Consumer Reports' website.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 9:59 AM
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re: 159

It only has grounds if you use coffee ground for filters or espresso machines [which is a finer grind]. If you buy cafietere ground coffee -- with a coarser grind -- it's fine.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:00 AM
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My French press does not leave grounds in the cup. The key to my liking French press coffee ended up being spending a decent amount of dosh* on a grinder.

*Nous sommes tous Bertie Wooster.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:00 AM
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Or, per 164, if you grind your own, of course.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:00 AM
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Expensive coffee makers, of course, put high-end artisanal chemicals in your coffee.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:00 AM
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Home roasting of beans makes a huge difference. Generates smoke, easy in a pan placed directly on charcoal outside. Fun.

In related news, the CA garage sale includes surfboards

Drip sucks, an option only for offices where easy cleaning is essential. Espresso at home. Seems like a fussy affectation, but is not.

112 exactly correct otherwise.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:00 AM
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I don't know, but my parents bought 2 or 3 cheap grocery-store coffee makers recently that made coffee that tasted awful. Totally chemically, even after they ran vinegar through it and everything. Finally they bought a slightly nicer one, which has been fine.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:00 AM
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163-65: Makes sense. They're pleasingly simple little devices, anyway.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:02 AM
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Yes, 190 degrees is important. I was fully indoctrinated in my time at Peet's (motto: if you don't like our coffee, you're making it wrong).

Back when I drank coffee, the press pot was the best. Now I'm on tea: two cups in the morning, a third one rarely. Little funnel strainer at work and a proper pot at home. Still Peet's, naturally.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:02 AM
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168: Maybe it's the water temperature thing -- the water's too cool, so the coffee tastes funny?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:05 AM
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If you get a grinder, get a burr grinder. Less friction, so the coffee doesn't scorch.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:06 AM
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167: Government issue for the California Surf Patrol?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:07 AM
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171: Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe. (Said doubtfully.)(Because why would cooler water leach more chemicals?)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:10 AM
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174: Out of spite?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:12 AM
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No, I've got plenty.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:13 AM
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Hmmm. Maybe I'll try out this cafetiere idea. I did buy a burr grinder when my old cheapo grinder finally crapped out a couple of months ago. Like LB, I have issues with grounds swimming in my cup, but if it's just a matter of proper grinding, I can do that.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:13 AM
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174: I'm assuming that the leap you're making from "Tastes nasty" to "More (non-coffee) chemicals" is flawed. Water leaches chemicals out of coffee grounds; hot water leaches different concentrations of different chemicals than cooler water. The coffee that tastes 'chemically' might not have anything but coffee chemicals in it, just the wrong ones.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:14 AM
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176: But it's on sale!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:15 AM
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179: Just be sure to get the shelf-stable spite, not the kind that dissipates with the passage of time.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:17 AM
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172: Not just or even primarily scorch. Blade grinders leave you with large chunks and dust and everything in between. Burr grinders give you uniformity. So for press pots medium/coarse and espresso machines (yes, bite me, we have one, and ramekins, and a stand mixer) need fine.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:19 AM
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Is this "burr grinder" the same thing as a "caffetiere grinder"?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:21 AM
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Burr grinder is the new stand mixer.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:23 AM
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183: Someone told me that, but mine made a total mess of cake batter.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:28 AM
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Burr grinders like bananas.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:28 AM
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185: Racist.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:29 AM
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Stand mixers like sandwiches on white bread with the crusts cut off. And Tab™.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:33 AM
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Anyway, I'm not using any kitchen appliance named after the traitor who shot Hamilton.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:33 AM
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SBGL is the new SWPL.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:35 AM
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188: I've never heard of a buww grinder.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:38 AM
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188: I recently got to cite an opinion in that matter as authority for our appeal. Or, rather, the associate who wrote the brief did. We both took an unseemly amount of pleasure in this.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:39 AM
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I'm not using any kitchen appliance named after the traitor who shot Hamilton.

Nonsense! It's named after the star of the television series Ironside.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:39 AM
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I recently got to cite an opinion in that matter as authority for our appeal. Or, rather, the associate who wrote the brief did. We both took an unseemly amount of pleasure in this.

Ah, yes. Who could forget that landmark ruling in which the "no backsies" rule was first formalized, and in which the "missed me, missed me, now you've got to kiss me" remedy was enshrined in our legal system?


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:45 AM
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188: I've pwned upon this subject before.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:46 AM
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I really like the ceremony of tea and coffee but I am both too lazy and too affected by the high dosage of caffeine in both of them to drink them regularly. (A small cup of coffee perks me up, but anything more than a few ounces leaves me shaky.)

So instead I drink Diet Coke all day long, which I am quite sure is terrible for my teeth. But now I'm addicted to my first can of the day. I try to stop around 5 pm so that I'm not up all night, but it can be difficult, so I understand Stanley's pain.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:47 AM
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188 -- Come, on. He totally had it coming to him.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:49 AM
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193 -- I'm not sure even John Marshall could get Jefferson to kiss the former vice-president.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:51 AM
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First as tragedy, second as kitchen appliances.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:52 AM
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That's what a stand mixer looks like? My mom had one of those. She called it a "mixer". Definitely not a yuppie appliance. How else would you make cake batter?

All these years, I was imagining some sort of elaborate espresso-machine-looking thing.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:13 AM
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Come, on. He totally had it coming to him.

Seriously. I mean, did you see what Hamilton was wearing?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:17 AM
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Making cake batter is so swipple.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:18 AM
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197: JOHN MARSHALL HAS MADE HIS DECISION, NOW LET HIM KISS RAYMOND BURR!


Posted by: OPINIONATED ANDREW JACKSON | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:18 AM
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199: That's more the low-end version. Here's the classic (which in and of itself is one of the more accessibly priced stand mixers).


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:21 AM
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199: That's a stand mixer, but it's no KitchenAid.

How else would you make cake batter?

Cakes were known well before electric appliances were invented. Also, there are hand mixers.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:22 AM
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199, 203: Also, even a pricey mixer is a reasonable expense if you bake a lot (instead of buying store food). The SWPL thing is to have one you hardly ever use, like skis, to prove that you could.

I believe there's many a Viking range getting dusty.

I also drool on Hobarts, so, hardly immune.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:24 AM
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Parenthetical is pwning me now? Oy.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:24 AM
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199: Your mom was SWPL before SWPL was... swipple?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:25 AM
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And with a link, no less.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:25 AM
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Cakes were that much *harder* before powered mixers, though, which must be part of the reason we have a hundred years of anxious-newlywed jokes about them. They can't all be references to sex.... Hard-to-control oven temperature didn't help, either.

I used to invite the crew team (v. small) over for waffles after weekend practices and have ports whip the eggwhites and starboards the cream. We had very fluffy waffles.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:26 AM
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205: I agree. I've got my very own KitchenAid. (A reward for surviving my first year of graduate school.) It gets a lot of use.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:26 AM
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205: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING A LITTLE DUSTY? THOSE VILLAGES WON'T PILLAGE THEMSELVES!


Posted by: OPINIONATED VIKING | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:26 AM
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>I believe there's many a Viking range getting dusty.

When I bought my new refrigerator, the salesman explained that Viking is the exact same box as Maytag, Jenn-Air, and something else, with some minor differences in styling. As far as I can tell, the one I wound up with is identical to the Viking I was swooning at except for black versus stainless sides and a few grand in price. I felt so smart. (And, yes, this store won customer loyalty.)


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:32 AM
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206: And so the pupil becomes...the master!


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:34 AM
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It seems like every day I like the Obama administration less than I did the day before. It's like they're *trying* to lose my vote.
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Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:34 AM
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214: The fuck? When did this start?? How is this even plausibly constitutional?! I get the justification for searching luggage, metal detectors, etc. You are getting on the plane and they have a compelling need to make sure you are not bringing dangerous stuff on board. But searching the contents of your hard drive?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:37 AM
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Not just search it, seize it for up to five days (30 days if they're ICE agents).


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:45 AM
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I'm utterly mortified.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:47 AM
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How is this even plausibly constitutional?

Long-standing border-crossing exception to fourth amendment protections. I still think it's wrong, but there is a colorable argument here.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:48 AM
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foolishmortal! How are things? Better?

(After posting this I have to go back to work--where since the great re-servering I can't reach this site. I'm uncouth.)


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:50 AM
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217: There must be something pretty darn racy on your hard drive.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:52 AM
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218: Cite? I'm familiar with the relaxed standards for interrogations/questioning, but this would (in pre-digital ages) be the equivalent of seizing someone's books, letters, diaries at the border until agents could figure out if they contained anything good.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:54 AM
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220: Uncle Sam could find out my pseudonym!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:55 AM
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For some reason I thought that at the border seizing your books, letters, and diaries at the border *would* be allowed; it was just not worth the agent's trouble in the pre-digital era. Being able to copy everything quickly changed the game.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 11:57 AM
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223: So you're saying the RIAA was right all along? My head might explode.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:00 PM
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Right, it's a customs-type power to search -- they can look through everything you have to be certain that you're not bringing contraband (either dutiable material, or illegal material) into the country. The freaky extension of it is defining information as 'contraband' sufficient to support that motivation for a search, and then getting to use anything the government finds so long as it's interesting, regardless of whether it's arguably 'contraband'.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:01 PM
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225: Right. I just can't see how information could be contraband. Sort of a First/Fourth Amendment overlap.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:07 PM
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The first couple of cases were child porn -- the idea was that there might be child porn on the hard drive, and that would be contraband.

It's the same fucked up nonsense as Terry stops that find drugs. The court gives law enforcement a Fourth Amendment loophole for non-investigatory reasons, and then ignores the fact that law enforcement is abusing it right and left as an investigatory tool.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:09 PM
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Being able to copy everything quickly changed the game.

AFAICT the major difference is not merely being able to copy everything, but being able to access such a wealth of private information in one place and being able to search it digitally or even tie it to other databases. Of course, the fact that the feds can copy your harddrive and keep the copy forever under God-knows-what access controls is also disturbing.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:10 PM
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228.1 Ah. I guess that makes sense.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:12 PM
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Take a look at US v. Ramsey, 431 U.S. 606 (1977).


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:15 PM
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230: OR, someone here could just summarize it for us?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:19 PM
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Obama's people are worried that if they loosen any of the absurd Bush era security policies and there is another attack, they will inevitably be blamed for having caused it because they didn't let DHS or whoever perform some unreasonable search or seizure. They know that this argument will be used even if there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the relevant search of the actual terrorists would have been performed in the first place, or if it had been that it would have turned up evidence that thwarted the plot. As is, if there is another attack, no matter how small, Obama will be blamed for not torturing enough people, abridging enough freedoms, and generally not being a bigger and more vicious Dick Cheney.

In my hopey dreams Obama will roll back everything bad that Bush did on the day after he wins his second term, along with DADT. Then the ponycorns will bring me a beer.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:21 PM
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Customs agent opened a suspiciously thick envelope from Thailand and found heroin. The recipient argued that you can't open mail without a warrant. The court of appeals agreed, and the Supreme Court said that no, a sovereign may search and control what crosses its borders, whether you carry it or mail it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:23 PM
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231 -- Stevens is right, but Rehnquist has the votes: they can open international mail to look for contraband. Or a letter you carry on your person across the border.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:24 PM
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If something goes wrong the Obama administration will be blamed for their grotesquely hippiesque lenience even if they ban all travel into and out of the country and make the possession of liquids punishable by firing squad. Preemptively addressing the future lies of liars is not a logical basis for a policy. Therefore I assume that that is not why they are doing it.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:24 PM
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It's the same fucked up nonsense as Terry stops that find drugs.

I can't remember who wrote it, but I read an essay that argues persuasively for a reform based on a strict separation of exceptions: police should be able to avail themselves of an exception to the requirement for probable cause (e.g. border crossing, Terry stop), or to an exception on limitation of scope (e.g. plain view), but not both at the same time. Otherwise you use one exception to pry open another, then another, until you've got a full-blown warrantless search.


Posted by: pain perdu | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:33 PM
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233: So I guess then the question becomes, has that authority been extended to permit the government, having opened the envelope and finding only a letter, to keep the letter until they found someone to translate it for them?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:44 PM
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234: I actually don't have a problem at all with Ramsey -- that Customs can search packages mailed into the country just like they can search you when you cross the border seems perfectly reasonable. It's the extension of the search to data rather than physical objects that bothers me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:45 PM
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Preemptively addressing the future lies of liars is not a logical basis for a policy.

Absolutely true, but a lesson that the Democrats in general and the Obama administration in particular show no sign of having learned. Heck, they still haven't learned to address the lies of lying liars while they are actually being told. I think it is a great mistake to underestimate the moral cowardice of politicians. Even so, the future lies of liars will swing elections, as they have in the past, so they must be taken seriously.

Therefore I assume that that is not why they are doing it.

Your logic is broken. Illogical reactions to insane behavior are a stock in trade of the Dems these days. Witness the fact that we were weeks into the "death panel" idiocy before a major democratic politician grew the balls to point out that it was not just a lie, but a transparent and stupid lie. Witness also that despite being insanely stupid at the herd-animal-with-organic-brain-damage-in-the-late-stages-of-alcohol-poisoning level, the death panel lie has actually affected the political dynamics of the healthcare fight.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:47 PM
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237: Yes. I can't remember the case names, but they were computer/child porn cases.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:48 PM
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I don't know if it's a matter of blame over hypotheticals as it is an executive unwilling to surrender power from his predecessor. Power granted, power seized, what's the difference? Basically, we gotta burn shit down, or Congress or the Judiciary gotta burn shit down. Obama's not going to burn his own shit down, and it ain't gonna burn itself.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:52 PM
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heebie--did you give up coffee when you were pregnant? I can imagine giving up alcohol pretty easily, but doing without caffeine for 9 months seems nearly impossible to me. I don't need to drink it everyday, but if I really need it, I really need it.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 12:55 PM
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extension of the search to data

"Data" may be someone else's property, to held only by valid licensees. Everyone else with the data is a thief. It's the equivalent of a suitcase full of gucci knockoffs.

Hilariously, I just bought a hockey jersey (gift for a friend) on eBay. Shipped from China with a "Made in Canada" label at 20% the cost of the NHL store.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:02 PM
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THAT'S NOT FUNNY!


Posted by: OPINIONATED NHL | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:08 PM
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I think there has to be a purge of weenies and cowards from the defense and intelligence establishments.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:33 PM
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245: But then I'll be out of work, and not likely to comment so much.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:37 PM
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244: It was actually very interesting to me. I tried to cut back and switch to decaf when we were trying to get pregnant, and it wasn't going very well, and I mostly felt guilty that I was still drinking coffee.

During the first trimester, I really didn't have much nausea, but somehow I lost all interest in coffee. It was too acidic. And I didn't have any caffeine withdrawal whatsoever.

Then, in the second trimester, all of a sudden I began having the caffeine withdrawal headaches, and I wanted my coffee back, but much less than when I'm not pregnant - one cup of the dishwater crap from the community coffee maker in our building was plenty. So that's all I had, or wanted, for the rest of the time.

Then immediately after she was born, I craved my old amount - 1-2 large cups of fairly strong coffee.

The studies show that caffeine is correlated with a mild increase in miscarriages during the first trimester, so I fancy that this was some Mother-Earth-hippie-body-knows-best way of making everything turn out right.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:39 PM
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I mean, to 242.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:39 PM
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You're welcome, heebie.


Posted by: Mother Earth | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:41 PM
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249: I picture you as you were drawn on the Smurfs, btw, and you are married to Father Time. For the record.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:43 PM
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I think that was equally appropriate as a response to the NHL's intellectual property complaint, Heebs.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 1:44 PM
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Or you could keep all your data in source control and travel with nothing on your hard drive, if you trusted that encryption. Subversion one way or another...


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 3:31 PM
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252: We wouldn't want customs to git our data.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 08-28-09 10:23 PM
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