Modulo lips and nose-bridge, they don't look all that dissimilar as to the face.
Wait, how do we know that the girl in the poster is a model?
Everyone is going to jump down my throat for that, I can tell already.
Why wouldn't we believe you were looking for naked pictures of Jared Deter?
We know, Stanley, because the theory demands it.
Unbeautiful victims would be an impolite intrusion by the real.
come on, Leni Riefenstahl's Africa is smokin'.
7. Oh, is that his name? Some annoying spots star who she dates/dated, is what i meant.
Jared Deter was a genuine mistake? Hahahahaha! That's awesome, Michael.
In all seriousness, it's an interesting campaign. Seems like more of a publicity stunt than an attempt to solve the problem, but it's a publicity stunt I could get behind.
12: Yeah. High-quality camera, perhaps. But I don't think she's a model either. We're allowing ogged a bit of delusion this evening, as his brain is short on oxygen after all the dog-paddlin'.
Tribeswoman does have a strangely "nostalgic for colonialism" connotation, but I wouldn't have noticed it if SB hadn't flagged it.
Is "tribeswoman" now dispreferred by the guardians of righteousness? Is there a list somewhere?
The rest of the thread is for bickering. Go!
"Tribes(wo)man" does have colonial overtones, but there isn't a good substitute for it. Maybe the whole concept is colonialist.
Oh, so ogged fetishized the anthropological other? Next thread, please.
I, too, noted "tribeswoman", but thought, whatever.
Dude, my grandmother clearly belonged to a tribe. She was a tribeswoman. Is that, like, unmentionable? Also, have people noticed that SB has taken on the little bitch role, or is that unmentionable too?
Is "tribeswoman" now dispreferred by the guardians of righteousness?
Maybe I'm just an insensitive whitey, but it doesn't seem like a crazy term considering it's a part of the world where in rural areas the local government is often whover runs the tribe.
I burned through all my good comments last year. Pace yourself, noobs.
1. Orientals are a queer lot.
2. Criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot.
∴ Either queers are cowardly and superstitious or orientals are criminals.
It's not too surprising that the subjects in these sorts of photos aren't necessarily models. The guy who took the National Geographic cover photo of that Afghani girl back in the 80's has apparently made a whole career out of taking pictures of visually striking "natives".
whover runs the tribe.
But Dyson runs the freemen.
26: Yes, but what did ogged really mean? Clearly, we're supposed to be discussing who's hotter and why, and yet, we're not allowed to talk about it. It's all very complicated. SB's blogging about it RIGHT NOW.
Yes, but what did ogged really mean?
"Is that professional hot chocolate , or tribal hot chocolate? Do I care? Should I care?"
She's quite pretty, but I don't think she's a model. This ad is several degrees less annoying than the (perhaps related?) AIDS campaign that's suddenly ubiquitous, feat. the likes of Gwyneth Paltrow in colored face paint with the supertext, "I Am African." I want to give that woman a good shake: Actually, Gwyneth, no you're not.
A friend of mine once made a drunk girl cry by vociferously, stubbornly, and without any real justification arguing that all of Angelina Jolie's charity work is just for the publicity purposes. I assume Ogged was trying to see if he could do the same thing.
Jesus. Look, it's not verboten to mention that people belong to tribes ("tribe" is kind of problematic as a classification, but that's on a higher level of abstraction and doesn't really matter here). The problem, such as it is, is that the specific words "tribesman" and "tribeswoman" carry overtones of colonial otherizing or whatever. It's like talking about "the natives." Not exactly offensive, but the connotations aren't great. Like I said before, though, there aren't really any good alternatives.
We gather from the photo that she's a poor African woman. OK, how do we know that she belongs to a tribe, other than by a presumption that non-white Africans tend to belong to tribes? From this, I gather that "tribe" is a roundabout way of saying "black" or "aboriginal". But even if "tribe" did mean just "tribe", and it turned out she did belong to a tribe, such a detail would be immaterial to your point, and so gratuitous-seeming.
Upon reflection, I am such a little bitch.
Ogged should just have called her a "female autochthon".
What if ogged had said "villager"? I don't think that would be problematic, but it does seem to assume she lived in village rather than somewhere else.
"Villager" seems okay by the standards of what I said in 35, but it doesn't quite fit standpipe's 36. Maybe it's okay just because "village" doesn't have the same connotations as "tribe."
The ad campaign also suggests that she has AIDS or will, very soon.
It is so very typical of this blog that we're going to discuss this. Not that I'm complaining. Try reading what's written in the third paragraph as "You idiot, that's not really [what you're supposed to misperceive it as being.]" I submit, my dear little bitches, that "some poor African tribeswoman" is precisely what you're supposed to think.
Also, for issues of familial honor, I reject the contention that "tribe" is pejorative.
"You idiot, that's not really [what you're supposed to misperceive it as being.]"
The irony, of course, is that it is.
Of course we're all autochthonous, are we not, with respect to that place as whose earth we are the same? So even using "autochthon" would not really help relevant matters—or would it? For is not the most relevant matter of our times the degradation and meretriciation of our language, as observed, and helped along, by such notorious drunkards as Christopher Hitchens? What better corrective could be sought than a revival of the word "autochthonous" and its substantive attendant?
Let's all talk about how awesome 30 was now.
You guys think the woman of tribe is >>>scarlett? she has the facial features of a 5 year old.
Who said "tribe" was pejorative?
Um, you? Doesn't "the specific words "tribesman" and "tribeswoman" carry overtones of colonial otherizing" kind of take us in that direction?
she has the facial features of a 5 year old.
I reject this infantilization of Africans.
No. I didn't say anything about the word "tribe" (well, I did, but not in the bit you quoted). I was just talking about those specific compounds.
"Tribe" doesn't actually mean uniformly rural or primitive, it's more of a generic term for various ethnocultural groups. One can be in a tribe and also live in the city, say. The "wild jungle man" connotation is all a western thing.
Right, it's that connotation that's the problem, not the word itself.
Although labeling various ethnocultural groups "tribes" is of course also a western thing.
I vaguely remember the long-ago day I learned you could use "gather" epistemically. That was a good day.
And the equating of "tribe" with "poor, primitive, agrarian group" (such as in the case here) creates that connotation. At least in the handful of sub-Saharan African countries I'm familiar with, effectively everyone can be considered a "tribesperson" (likewise, I can be said to belong to the Norwegian "tribe".) It has only very limited meaning.
Would anyone really call Norwegians a tribe, though? That's kind of the heart of the problem with the classification generally.
I'm beginning to fear that this post was too sophisticated for my public.
59: That's a common fear among the Lur. But they're very photogenetic, so we forgive them.
Not Norwegians in general, but Laplanders (and other such sub-national groups) probably fit the bill. That's the whole problem with the word--definitionally, it applies to all of those types of groups, but in practice it's only used to describe ones that are perceived to be inferior.
Stop oppressing me, whiteys. I don't think it connotes inferiority, and the I'm the least removed from a tribe.
I'm beginning to fear that this post was too sophisticated for my public.
Word. Enough nerdiness already. This post did make me ask myself who immediately springs to mind when I think of hot black actresses, and Gabrielle Union is definitely on that list.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Gabrielle+Union
Anyway, and again, the word needs to be read in the context provided by 42.
Yes, yes, we get what you were saying, ogged. We're just discussing the word in general.
Oh, right, of course I'm not implicated at all.
What tribe does she belong to?
I think IMDB said she was from Nebraska.
Someone mentioned Penelope Cruz in a similar context recently: to me, dear S.J. seems kind of plastic in any stationary shot, but after seeing Lost in Translation I'd kill all of you for her.
re:tribes, I suppose in the loose definition we're all members of one or the other, but I can only tell who is one of mine by who gets my jokes. I am skeptical of any other metric, and anyway I'd kill them all as well for a shot at aforementioned S.J, depending on her sense of humour.
Although labeling various ethnocultural groups "tribes" is of course also a western thing.
"ethnocultural" is such a whitey word.
It is so very typical of this blog that we're going to discuss this.
better than the computer-nerdistry thread below.
One can be in a tribe and also live in the city, say.
cf. "The Noizy Tribe". They're back. Wicked.
Dude, she is hot. I don't think I've seen anything she's been in.
(I fear this comment will prove too sophisticated for my public.)
As to the substance of the post, it's the same sort of thing as those adopt-a-child charities that send you photos of and letters from one particular person. People stop caring if the concern is too abstract; this puts a face to the problem. So sure, use the attractive refugees in the promotional campaigns. That's how you get attention.
I'm going to bed. Try not to otherize anyone while I'm gone.
74. Not too sophisticated for me. I know what you meant. You meant "G'DAMN! THAT GURL IS OFF THE HEEZY!!"
Off the heezy, indeed.
teo and standpipe might get together to start organizing some kwanza teach-ins. best to start early.
My reaction to that photo seems like it's in the opposite direction--trying to get less meta, not more. Much more thinking is about who's paying for what, where the money is going, and what the physical (financial/medical/action-causing) effects of the campaign will be. Cultural elite, symbols, manipulation, games, propriety, imposition, beauty, status, construction, personal identity--in the end, aren't these all just intellectual tools for helping us organize our lives in a way that better deals with getting ourselves and others food, shelter, clothing, medicine, justice, options, safety, contentment? Living life?
So, in this case, we have this charity, FXB, which seems to be pretty slick with the PR, so that's potentially good (more informative) but potentially bad (waste of atoms on bits). The more I click, the more I'm convinced that they really are going to spend this money on these things, and that they are doing it in a way that will make these things work. So the chances of me giving me money increases--increasing the chance that these things get done. So Ms. Johannsen has done a good deed by making me click. And she has done so through you, Ogged, albeit convolutedly, so good job. But yes, not the time to be getting bogged down in the semantics of "tribal," I think. The FXB site alone is worth a rich discussion, much hive swarming, and perhaps even a lot of unified fundraising.
Bits to Atoms! Bits to Atoms! But in the end, for all that I'm an abstract thinker, I don't do very well with the meta and the cultural critique, and you all are miles ahead of me---which is why I'm usually a wall flower here. So maybe it's just to each his own.
I don't think I've seen anything she's been in.
I ended up a bunch of Bad Boys II one night on HBO because she was running around in a swimsuit in it. She's also in that HBO movie with Mos Def, "Something the Lord Made."
It is almost always much better not to use the word "tribe" when the context is Africa. It will infallibly lead you into saying stupid things about ethnic politics; the fact that African newspapers and politicians regularly talk about tribal politics is a "false friend" here.
The Wiki article on the Lurs is a stub. This seems like a good chance for some Lur tribesman to aggrandize his ethnicity by posting some wildly exaggerated claims.
In the Lurestan article it says "A number of nomadic Lur tribes continue to exist in the province. Amongst the settled urban populace the authority of tribal elders still remains a strong influence, though not as dominant as it is amongst the nomads." There's also some shit about the Lurs being less sexist than other Muslim Persians, but obviously the Lur PR agency placed that.
I have a premonition that I will come to regret my part in the birth of the new, tribal Ogged. On the other hand, if the tribal elders get their hooks into him, he may regret it too.
I don't think I've seen anything she's been in.
She was in the best giant spider movie ever, Eight-Legged Freaks (I'm deadly serious, it's a great movie), and 70 is 100% correct about Lost in Translation. All of you, with a song in my heart and a smile on my lips.
to me, dear S.J. seems kind of plastic in any stationary shot
I thought, You've seen strasmangelo jones?! But I had another thinque coming.
That's pretty screwed up right there.
84 comments and nobody bothered to note that at least two of discussants (probably more) are themselves tribesmen?
who immediately springs to mind when I think of hot black actresses
Thandie Newton springs to my mind. And while she only has one black parent, her mother was a member of the Shona tribe. So there.
For a tribesperson, Ogged is oddly reluctant to marry his hott cousin.
87.--I'm glad you pointed that out, Clown. I'm of the tribe of Ephraim, myself.
Clownae can be forgiven for not knowing that ten of the tribes fled the Middle East and only survive in the US, as Native American descendants of the refugees. His provincial tribal background has concealed the truth from him.
87: 'Sides, we're pretty much down to 2, aren't we?
94: Only if you don't count the Boo-Yaa T.R.I.B.E.
Of course, in the Mormon world, the "Tribe of Ephraim" basically means "Whitey's Tribe" anyway
If Scarlett Johansson let herself be felt up for charity, she could raise virtually unlimited amounts of money.
Totally off-topic: a comparison of today's front covers for New York Cities two major tabloids is instructive: (1) (2 -- the Post doesn't put its front cover online but the image is the same as the one currently on the home page.)
America's oldest continuously published daily piece of bullshit.
Oh... is this the totally OT thread now? Awesome, I need vocabulary help: what is the grown-up word for "extra-curricular activities"? I could say "extra-vocational activities", but I don't think anyone would know what I was talking about.
Hmm, maybe. Although I was wanted to emcompass things less leisurely than that.
Hobbies. (What you're talking about may also include professional activities -- does it?)
Although Alexander Hamilton was clearly the rulingest Founding Father of all, yeah, the Post is teh suck.
John Hancock, bitches! He's the guy with the sig.
105- potentially. I want to cover anything one does outside of one's day-to-day work. "Hobbies or non-work-related professional activities" could work, maybe, but I'd like something less clunky than that.
I'm not sure leisure isn't the word you're looking for. It doesn't necessarily mean R&R; it means free from the constraints of work or duty.
Scarlett Johannsen and Natalie Portman are the official pinups of the Atheist Society.
I personally would like to do a study of Giselle Bundchen to analyze her way of combining grossly stereotypical Germannitude (she could as well wear dirndls and yodel) and grossly stereotypical Brazilianity (being hott).
Feeling-up would be a necessary part of the study, but preferably -- out of concerns for Giselle's dignity -- in a more private place without all those cameras around.
According to one of her ex-employers, she's a stoner who slept her way to the top. It strikes me that being able to sleep your way to the top, with all the other models competing with you, is a pretty reasonable criterion for top-modellness. Being a stoner, not so much.
We can't answer the question unless we know what you're writing. If it's a resume, which is my guess, the category is 'Interests' and you should leave it off. If it's something else, (bio for a company website?) break out the professional activities into a category separate from hobbies.
If someone was an adjunct professor, or served in an advisory role on the board of a non-profit corporation, in his or her spare time, do you think they would offer that in response to a question asking about their leisure activities? (Maybe, I'm genuinely asking.)
No more help, Mineshaft! You've done more than enough for me. I feel vaguely guilty about asking the question in the first place. Let's talk about something else now. Thanks.
A fine resumé category would be "Obsessions".
she's a stoner who slept her way to the top
This is my approach as well but, strangely, it hasn't gotten me anywhere near the top. I must be doing something wrong.
There's no shame in sleeping your way to middle, Apo.
116: I also like, "_____ is sexy; ______ is sexier".
108: Please. A-Ham was the man.
Work experience
Education
Obsessions
I submit that making distinctions between words that are pejorative and words whose connotations are pejorative must result in said distinction-maker being thrown into the stinky pot.
Back to the 'tribeswoman' discussion, nervousness along these lines led me to refer to people resident in Samoa as 'locals' for lack of a better word. (although 'tribespeople' wouldn't have been applicable. Extended families (aiga) are important, but they're much smaller than what I think of as tribes -- say 20-200 people.) I realized after a bit that I'd reinvented the word 'aborigine'.
I submit that making distinctions between words that are pejorative and words whose connotations are pejorative must result in said distinction-maker being thrown into the stinky pot.
That's what I was thinking, but then I got sidetracked by the hot actress thing.
Then we'll have to amend the by-rules. I trust we all remain in favor of hot actresses, so that rule can stay the same.
124 -- what?! You've got the stinky pot and have been holding out on us? Give us a toke!
In actual studies of tribal peoples the word "tribe" tends to disappear. You end up with clans, sub-clans, clans differently defined and called something different, superclans variously defined, and confederations which are not really organized by kinship and mostly exist for military purposes.
Usually kinship further back than 3-4 generations is significantly fictionalized.
You also have clans/ tribes defined by a distant common ancestor even though no one has any idea what their actual connection to the ancestor was. It's as if all the Dutch-Americansl believed that they were descended from Peter Stuyvesant in some unknown way, and worshipped his memory.
I have heard Jewish Americans unsure of another person's Jewishness routinely, if wryly, ask if that person is in "the tribe".
the word "tribe" tends to disappear. You end up with clans
If you called ogged a clansman, I don't think he'd take offense.
126: The Boo-Yaa T.R.I.B.E. are Samoan-Americans.
You end up with clans
The Foot Clan, for instance.
Give us a toke!
Text made it pretty clear what one must do in order to gain access to the stinky pot.
the only one who has gained entry thus far is in greatest need of it; don't get greedy.
You end up with clans, sub-clans, clans differently defined and called something different, superclans variously defined
Where's the indigenous representative of Clan McGrattan?
Here.
But there is no Clan McGrattan.
I would also like to explore Laetitia Casta's strategies for negotiating the complexities her dual Norman-Corsican heritage, preferably also in a private space where we could feel relaxed and disuncumber ourselves of unnecessary restraints and conventions.
Will no one mention the level of crazy indicated by ogged's knee-jerk deconstruction of pictures within pictures?
Here's a question. Is Scarlett a talented actress? And for that matter, how talented are the superhot actors we throw Oscars at each year? Do we immediately lower the bar for them when we see how fucking perfect they look? I think I do. I think many people do. We're beside ourselves when perfect physical specimens (your Angelina, Charlize, Scarlett) can put two sentences together. We resent them if they have just one extraordinary gift (beauty). But with two extraordinary gifts! Or even one extraordinary gift and one mediocre one ("acting")*! We forgive all sins.
* Not that acting is a mediocre gift, but that our biggest movie stars are, at best, only talented in a mediocre way, acting-wise.
In the late 1800s, among those who believed in cultural evolution, "tribe" explicitly referred to a simpler, earlier, less developed, more primitive form of social organization.
From the wikipedia entry on sociocultural_evolution:
2 There are a determinate number of stages between "primitive" and "civilised" (e.g. band, tribe, chiefdom, and state),
Some people still use it that way, saying e.g. that tribalism is preventing advancement to the ultimate form of civilization (global capitalism) in Africa. Of course, not everyone recognizes that the tribe of Windsor is simply inherently more civilized than the tribe of Corleone. And some still hew to the tribe of Charles. Stuart.
Do we immediately lower the bar for them when we see how fucking perfect they look?
Yes -- this is a pretty commonplace understanding, right?
140/142: and not just actors, but everybody right? If you're teh smokking sexx machine you get a lower bar for just about anything you do.
[sob] Don't disparage my accomplishments, Brock!
But we still fall for it every time. Even fancy critics fall for it. You'd think that logic would eventually overcome hard-wiring, but nope.
Scarlett Johannsen and Natalie Portman are the official pinups of the Atheist Society.
Damn, and I was already in love (OK, lust) with Scarlett Johansson. Other actress pinups in their pantheon are Julianne Moore, Diane Keaton, Janeane Garofalo, Jodie Foster, Uma Thurman (agnostic), Phyllis Diller, and Angelina Jolie (agnostic); porn stars Nina Hartley, Brandy Alexandre, and Asia Carrera; and the late Katharine Hepburn and Marilyn Monroe (not sure what they base their claim she was an atheist on -- they cite no evidence). (Julianne Moore is probably SFW (major cleavage); Uma Thurman and the porn stars are not.) They have many more cool atheists in their pantheon -- Marie Curie, George Clooney, Christopher Reeve, Dave Barry, etc.
But in acting, isn't it kind of legit? You're not assessing actors based on their desert, you're assessing them based on their ability to produce an emotional effect in the audience, and that emotional effect is assisted by incredible beauty. (Anyone purporting to assess lawyers based on their looks should be shot, but looking at the partners around here I don't think it's an issue.)
. . . Uma Thurman (agnostic), Phyllis Diller, and Angelina Jolie (agnostic) . . .
[sings] One of these things is not like the others . . .
Anyone purporting to assess lawyers based on their looks should be shot
Except for courtroom litigators, who by the logic of your second sentence should be judged in part on their appearance.
Yeah, there are a lot of unusually attractive lawyers at my firm.
Is Scarlett a talented actress?
No one cares except thespians, jealous bitches, and theists. (My answer might seem to imply that perhaps I think that she might not be terribly talented, but that conclusion would be almost entirely unjustified.)
Do we immediately lower the bar for them when we see how fucking perfect they look?
We're in simple answers to simple questions territory now.
To go further, from my unique non-dating non-relationships perspective, a lot of movies are just no fun for me because they're date movies. There's a tremendous overrepresentation of very attractive people even in movies which try for realism. Movies with unattractive characters are an obscure niche market. And often the date-movie aspect screws up the stroyline too -- the old Hollywood happy endings where they get married are just one example.
And sure, lots of top actresses do ultimately take a homely or fat role now and then, but only after they've established themelves as beautiful. An actress who started out homely and stayed that way would be second-rank by definition ("character actress").
I think it's perhaps more true of actresses than actors. You just need to be a pretty face who can cry, which is why it's so daring or shocking or whatever when a beautiful actress packs on 30 pounds for a role. Men's roles seem to be more substantial.
A lot of the big name male stars are actually pretty funny-looking. For example, somehow Nicholas Cage became a sex symbol.
But there is no Clan McGrattan
It was explained to me when I was young that the major Scottish clans had affiliations, there were "Cadet" clans, and that each major clan had a dozen or so variant names and names associated with it. It's complicated, and I don't really understand it.
But with two extraordinary gifts! Or even one extraordinary gift and one mediocre one ("acting")*! We forgive all sins.
Don't we all more or less admit that this is true? That beauty is one of the big trump cards in life? But I'm not sure what follows.
(Anyone purporting to assess lawyers based on their looks should be shot, but looking at the partners around here I don't think it's an issue.)
Wait, they may not purport to, but don't they? The partners at your firm have succeeded because they're talented, in spite of their looks. I don't think it's at all implausible to suggest that a very attractive lawyer could be equally succcessful with *less* raw legal talent. Courtroom litigators are obvious. But even corporate lawyerss' success is built on client relationships, which are based on trust and percieved competence, etc. We trust people more, and perceive them as more competent, when they're very attractive.
Men's roles seem to be more substantial.
Is that a polite way of saying that most of the male stars strike you as fat?
149, 150: I think I've told it before, but the most impressive courtroom lawyer I've ever seen is a little blandly ugly guy, named D/an We/b/b. The story I've heard is that when he was in the US Attorney's office, a superior wanted to fire?/not promote?/not hire? him because he "looked like a farmer." So, yeah, there's selection for looks going on there -- being a big stalwart looking white guy doesn't hurt.
somehow Nicholas Cage became a sex symbol
Which is ironic, since his only good movie was Adaptation wherein he plays a schlub.
149, 150, 155: These are all correct -- I was being rude about my superiors and defensive about my looks rather than making an actual claim of fact.
I also think that hott actresses are trick to get husbands to take their wives to mivies the wife actually wants to go to. "You just wait for Scarlett to take her clothes off, honey, while I watch this thoughtful, sensitive story about three generations of women and how their lives intertwined."
Sure, some guys like moviesas such, but they're all gay.
153: Okay, not any more -- he's gotten older oddly -- but Moonstruck-era Nick Cage had me making little happy growling noises when I looked at him. I don't know if he was objectively goodlooking, or what that means, but he was certainly to my taste.
158 -- when I was on jury I voted against the lawyer who was a big, stalwart white guy. (Wll not really. But, he was the defense lawyer and I voted to convict. So draw your own conclusions.)
159: What about The Rock? I think it's a cult classic.
The right kind of homeliness is sexy in guys, and excessive facial good looks is suspect.
(He was totally trying to intimidate the frumpy female prosecutor with his body language. Maybe mostly because the substance of his case was so lousy.)
164: Funny to watch (for its ridiculousness); not a good movie, though, IMHO.
Then again, I have an extreme and irrationally visceral reaction to Nick Cage, so I'm not a good data point.
159: Leaving Las Vegas?
Not a particularly sexy character either though.
I read 165 as "the right kind of homelessness is sexy in guys" and was trying to figure out what that meant when I reread and realized John is just talking himself up.
169: Overrated. This is fun. I'll take this thread to 200 easy.
172: Oh, right. That, definitely. Okay, two good movies. I'm not budging any further.
172: "Not unless round's funny."
I was being rude about my superiors and defensive about my looks rather than making an actual claim of fact.
(I'm going to assume this is means something like, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.") I think the thing is that, much though we don't always care to admit it, beauty is a bit like height or speed--it can't really be taught. (I'm not claiming that beauty is easily measurable in the way that height and speed are.) Sucks, but there it is. The nice thing is that there really aren't that many people at the far positive end of the curve, so it's not like you have to go into most competitions or what-have-you worrying that everyone's just going to defer to the Jolie lookalike.
I couldn't enjoy The Rock, even though Sean Connery will always remain one of the sexiest men alive; they fucking trashed San Francisco. Yeah yeah yeah, it was a model, it was only a movie--WHATEVER.
(I was also deeply offended on behalf of the .10-scale reproduction of the Louvre that was destroyed in the opening sequence of Team America.)
(Actually, I was aiming for self-deprecating. But "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful" works just as well through a text-based interface.)
beauty is a bit like height or speed--it can't really be taught.
Actually, I'd dispute that. Granted, the spectacular natural beauties are a category by themselves, but a LOT of the people who turn heads have figured out how to maximize their good points. After the somewhat more amorphous notion of style, it's all about accessories and attitude, both of which can be acquired.
Have we talked about how I'm going to Amsterdam tomorrow? And then to Berlin and Prague?
Have we talked about how I'm going to Amsterdam tomorrow? And then to Berlin and Prague?
Cool. What's the story?
After the somewhat more amorphous notion of style, it's all about accessories and attitude, both of which can be acquired.
I guess I think of that as a description of the various ends of the mushy middle. In a sense, you can teach speed by teaching technique and diet. But there are a class of people I would never be able to keep with, no matter what my effort. (In my specific case, several classes.) Also, I think the "attitude and accessories" thing might work better in your twenties and such than later on, but that belief might be either (a) idiosyncratic, or (b) born out of the fact that most people I know dress and behave in pretty narrowly proscribed ways.
180: It better be as some sort of rent boy.
180 -- excellent! Have a good trip! What will you be doing and for how long?
Dude, Amsterdam is nice. The one time I was there, I found myself wondering if NY was still Dutcher than I'd realized -- something about the rhythm of interaction with people was very homey and familiar.
It's pretty much for debauchery purposes. Ostensibly to celebrate our impending Off-Broadway production/nascent film.
re: 154
I suspect that's largely bullshit. There's so much faux-Highlands bollocks about -- both among descendants of Scottish emigrants and actual native Scots -- that it's hard to tell what's true any more. Everyone wants to claim some kind of clan affiliation for themselves.*
However, as far as I know, McGrattan is an Ulster name and only dates back a couple of hundred years in Scotland.
* I hate all that crap. There's loads that's great about Scottish culture, both highland and lowland, without everyone rushing to claim the culture of one particularly backward rural branch as the 'true' Scottish culture.
Someone take a look at the Gr. here:
http://maydaymystery.org/mayday/texts/06-dec6.html
And tell me if "joy in the day's work" might work for a translation. Small Greek, etc.
Amsterdam is nice. Great to just walk around in, and the Van Gogh museum is pretty awesome (the Anne Frank house is also worth a visit). Haven't been to Berlin or Prague.
Also, you're going feel really short in Amsterdam.
189.--Everybody knows that the true Scottish culture migrated to Canada.
The longer version is, it's my director/best friend Ryan and my fellow songwriter Eric taking the trip. We're starting in Amsterdam, doing Amsterdam things, going to some party in The Hague on Sunday night, then renting a car. Eric was on a European tour with some show not too long ago, so he's going to drive us around. Euro road trip. Plus, the car will make it much easier for us to load up on Amsterdam things and take them elsewhere (but not back to the states, obvs, since that's pretty much insane).
We're driving to Berlin, and probably stopping in one of those picturesque little German towns along the way. We stay in Berlin a night or two, and then it's on to Prague, where we're going to get in as much trouble as bribes will allow. Then, sadly, home. A 9-day trip in all.
Joe, that sounds like an awesome trip. Having been to all three cities, I recommend Berlin the most. In Amsterdam, eat some Indonesian food. Yummy. Don't bother with the sex museum; it's boring (but do check out the torture museum in Prague!). In Prague, if you're not a vegetarian or whatever, you should eat those sausages that are literally inserted into a cored-out baguette. No condiment spillage! Awesome! Also Prague: if you really want to experience Prague's magic castly-quality, go to the Charles Bridge early in the morning, like, 7:30 or 8. There will be no one there, and it will be beautiful.
I could keep writing about this stuff all day. My favorite thing in Berlin was the EastSide Gallery. Also, I stayed in Prenzlauer Berg which has all the best restaurants; get off at SchönhauserAllee and just walk around. I don't know if you're budget-y or not, but if you are, a fine meal is shawerma for about 2.50 euros. Filling, cheap, yummy.
My son liked Berlin a lot. He says it's sort of low key compared to London, and as I remember, cheap and convenient.
Nevermind what I said Joe, I see you're just looking to get laid.
re: 180
Congrats on the trip. Prague is great. Will be nice this time of year too.
Lots of good things to see. Good bars and clubs too.
194: If you don't live-blog it, you're just a dick.
The Hague is rad. I haven't been there in years, but I used to love to go to the little beach town that's right next to it, Scheveningen, and walk on the beach. It's like a Dutch Boardwalk, abandoned in winter. I even put my toe in the North Sea once in January. Very cold.
I hate all that crap. There's loads that's great about Scottish culture, both highland and lowland, without everyone rushing to claim the culture of one particularly backward rural branch as the 'true' Scottish culture.
I hate it too, and it's always seemed pretty phony to me. And even now I have friends who've tried to construct an identity around this stuff, who'd like to get me involved.
What seems more authentic to me are accounts of Scottish immigration to the new world, and how their culture and disposition expressed itself here. Examples are the recent Canadian novel No Great Mischief, about Cape Breton, or Ivan Doig's memoir This House of Sky, about Montana.
"doing Amsterdam things" s/b "getting high"
I'm excited to see if the respective cities will be decked out for Christmas, as well.
183.--I think what I was suggesting, SCMTim, is that a whole lot of the people we think of as very attractive have been extensively buffed and polished, even when they haven't had plastic surgery. Cosmetics, flattering haircuts, movement training, well-cut clothing, a good use of color, regular spa visits--this shit goes a long way.
It represents a hefty investment of time and money, of course.
I hate all that crap. There's loads that's great about Scottish culture, both highland and lowland, without everyone rushing to claim the culture of one particularly backward rural branch as the 'true' Scottish culture.
This makes sense. I had an interest in what my "tartan(s)" was/were at one point, but felt stupid about explaining it to people. Then I found out that my ancestor through whom I am descended from those two potential "clans" was a soldier in the Confederate Army, and I thought "well heck, why not just become a member of Sons of the Confederacy or something? That's a lot more relevant to the present day. In fact, why not forget all this "identifying with your ancestors" stuff entirely."
SCMT, I'll pop in when when I can. Do they even have the internet in Europe, though?
Do they even have the internet in Europe, though?
Everywhere except Sweden.
Also Prague: if you really want to experience Prague's magic castly-quality, go to the Charles Bridge early in the morning, like, 7:30 or 8. There will be no one there, and it will be beautiful.
This could conceivably happen, but the more likely scenario will be on the tail end of a night rather than at the beginning of the day.
183: My sense is that if we were to take most actresses considered beautiful, and dressed them in cheap clothing from K-mart and didn't allow them fancy make-up or expensive salons for their hair, most of them would look very average, maybe even dowdy. There's exceptions of course: the truly beautiful. But a lot of what we consider beautiful seem to be marks of status.
re: Prague -- the sausages in a cored-out bun are called 'parek rohliku'. And they can be had with czech mustard which is nice.
There'll be a Christmas market at the top end of Wenceslas Square (Vaclav Namesti) and in Old Town Square (Staromestke Namesti), I think. Can't remember when they start. Early-ish December, I think.
Anyway, they serve really good hot mulled wine from stalls -- which has a big shot of cheap and nasty czech rum in it. They are great.
207: I'm expecting comments like
X: "This stuff is awesome.."
X+10: "No, seriously...AWESOME!"
X+20:"AWEsome. aWesoMe. Asso-me. Ass-Me."
189: I know what you mean. I was borne scots (or scots/english depending who you want to ask) and still have citizenship but I've never really lived there other than short visits to family. In north america I've run into more than one person who wanted to emphasize that though, which I always found kind of weird.
`No great mischief' is a great little book, and from what time I've spent there really seems to capture something (that's rapidly being lost) about the area.
Hrm. I doubt that, kinda -- not that grooming doesn't make a difference, but that at equal levels of grooming, professionally pretty people will remain remarkably pretty.
The hyper-skinny thing is a confounding factor here, in that you're going to get some women who are pretty in pictures but odd looking in person because they're so far outside the norm, but that's a different thing.
re: 207
In Prague, there's a couple of big internet cafés -- the Bohemia Bagel 'chain' -- that seem to be entirely inhabited by US backpackers.
Guys, thanks for all the suggestions. I'm noting all of them.
One thing we're certainly going to do is explore significant landmarks of the Velvet Revolution in Prague, since the three of us are fascinated by that moment in history.
If you want to experience Prague's magical dive-bar quality, Jaroslav Hasek's grandson has opened a bar somewhere in Prague.
To return to a slightly earlier point: I am annoyed by "all movies must have beautiful people and most novels must remind us (a la Paul Auster) that their main characters/main female characters are really hott" mostly because it makes things boring to me. I don't find most famous actresses attractive (Never mind the actors! Yuck! Generic greasy-looking cloddish lumps like Mel Gibson or Tom Cruise?). Now, I wouldn't mind looking like, say, Julianne Moore, because it would make my life much easier...but I'd rather look like Alison Bechtel, the handsomest cartoonist alive.
The thing is, the iron law of the boring marketplace means that if I want to watch movies I have to watch a lot of small-nosed lollipop-heads, many of whom are blond; ergo almost all are unattractive to me. I often have to watch them play roles which require them to convey intelligence; most of them can't do this even if they're fairly smart underneath it all because everyone has always interacted with them as Hott and not as, you know, Smartt.
It's BORING! That's what's wrong with Hollywood and with most mass-production. Where's my movie with Elvis Costello expands his acting career to play Theodore Adorno in pre-war Germany? Or what about the one where Daniel Day-Lewis plays an activist demoralized by the failures of '68 but it's not stupid and doesn't reaffirm crappy bourgeois values? Where is the actress who looks like the Most Beautiful Girl Ever who was in my Pre-Columbian Americas class and who had long curly dark hair and a big nose? I mean, if we're going to see movies with attractive people, I have just as good a right as anyone to see someone I actually find attractive, no?
219 -- I think it is called U Ceské Koruny Public House and Penzion.
at equal levels of grooming...
But that's sort of the point. The level of grooming that comes with being a professionally pretty person is way beyond the income and available time for most humans. Obviously, since the professional groomers know their trade, there's a one-upsmanship effect when it comes to models and actresses and whatnot: you find naturally pretty people and transform them through grooming into radiant gods and goddesses. But the grooming effect can be huge for ordinary mortels.
(I'm not claiming that without her makeup and clothes and regime, Kate Moss is no more attractive than ten random grocery-store checkers. That would be silly.)
Joe: sounds like an amazing trip. Have fun. Report back. Sure wish I could tag along.
I think you owe it to the unfoggedetariat to get trashed in a very seedy east berlin club full of locals and loud music. I hear they are in top form these days.
To paraphrase Labs, no matter how much I groom, J/m, I'm never going to be remotely as hott as Christian Bale.
re: 221
Reading the website for the place, it's not in Prague, and is the place where Hasek wrote.
I think you owe it to the unfoggedetariat to get trashed in a very seedy east berlin club full of locals and loud music. I hear they are in top form these days.
This will almost certainly happen.
226 -- perhaps you will meet a singer there and move into her apartment, and spend your time teaching English and trolling for boys.
Prague has some good jazz places. And a lot of pretty sleazy clubs. Depending what kind of place you like, I might be able to recommend somewhere [or have no clue at all, depending]...
228 - I think we're going to try and be as spontaneous as possible. It'll probably be a case of, this place looks cool, sounds good, let's go inside.
Woo Joe! I'm totally envisioning your trip like the 5-minute European vacation recap in Rules of Attraction.
And a belated Woo! to m. leblanc about her job, which I never got to woo her about because I was busy.
Definitely do some of the Christmas fair stuff. Berlin should have a Weihnachtsmarkt in some public square, and probably there'll be a bunch of them across the city.
I really enjoyed the big Berlin classical art museum; lots of gorgeous Dutch school landscapes.
re: 229
Cool. As good a way as any.
There are some dodgy places where I personally wouldn't go without locals with me -- but those are pretty out of the way, i.e. not in the city centre -- but you won't wander into one of them by mistake anyway as they look like crappy/dodgy bars anywhere else.
I'm totally envisioning your trip like the 5-minute European vacation recap in Rules of Attraction.
Yes! That's what I want. That was the best part of that film.
I never got to woo her
You can woo me anytime, Becks.
ttaM:
Judging from the four or five of us who've checked in on this thread, a lot of us in No. America, aware of Scottish descent and that it helped make us who we are, are nonetheless sensibly aware of how the whole subject is shot through with nonsense. How does it look from over there? Is ancestor tourism and the enthusiasm for Highland stuff seen as a mostly No. American thing? I know that it was a vast cult on both sides in the 19th C., with Ossian and then the Waverly novels having got the ball rolling, but there still seems to be plenty of it over there, what with Monarch of the Glen etc.
There's a Twain? (I think) essay, blaming romantic Scottishism on the American South clinging to its antebellum past.
Huh. I always figured the antebellum society grew out of the British aristocracy.
Plus, McClellan fought for the Union!
Really, really crappily, I might add.
but I'd rather look like Alison Bechtel, the handsomest cartoonist alive.
Should be Bechdel. I wouldn't comment except it seems like an unfortunate misspelling.
Also, I will note, that the TLS recently gave her graphic novel autobiography a nice (brief) review.
237: Specifically the Waverly novels, yes.
There's a Hugh Trevor Roper essay tracing the history of Tartan, that shows it's a very recent development, adopted more in the spirit of gang symbol than anything else. Pleases me to think of middle-aged tourists of some distant future wearing parkas backwards or having their jeans fall off.
IDP, it seems pretty variable to me in north america, too. There is a big difference between some random middle class 5th-generation north american MacWhatever hosting robby burns nights and wearing a kilt on sundays and on the other hand a cape breton islander, say.
There's some scots culture on the east coast of canada, anyway, that's just sort of seeped into the place (much less so now than a generation or two ago, from what I hear). For example, I've met a native gaelic speaker there (granted, she was in her 80s).
According to what I've read, that's a fantasy -- remember Scarlett's last name was O'Hara, not something Norman and classy sounding. The plantation 'aristocracy' was a bunch of broke losers like the rest of us immigrants until they got here, but in the early 19th C went off on an archaic chivalry kick, motivated largely by a fashion for the novels of Scott. And then they stuck with it out of longing for their own past after the war.
(This is a half-ass synthesis of stuff I've read different places, particularly that Twain essay but other stuff as well. I do not vouch for its accuracy.)
This being the topicless thread and all, I'd like to direct your attention to this:
I took a brief look at [the Iraq Study Group report] and I applaud their assertion that we need to have a real debate and cooperation in order to determine the proper course in Iraq - this would mean, at the minimum, that Democrats stop it with the "Bush LIED!!!" meme, ya know? The other thing I took out of it is something I dispute - the report asserts things are deteriorating in Iraq: to me, this is just conforming the report to the phony story of Iraq produced by the MSM. I think it was more of a, "ya know, if we tell the truth about all the good things that are happening in Iraq, no one will believe us because the MSM has spent the past two years broadcasting enemy propaganda".
Now that is some special kind of crazy.
It may have been mostly Sir Walter Scott-icism.
Vancouver BC has a large and vocal Scottish population.
A friend involved in Celtic music say that the West Coast Highland Games events verify that Scots really are stingy. Scots potlucks are no fun, she reports.
210 and 222: I was going to agree with you, but then I remembered that I've heard that Uma Thurman looks divine no matter what she's wearing.
Here's a bit of the Twain on Scott thing I was talking about.
An anagram of this post's title is "O Bin Ogged".
243 -- I thought her last name was Johanssen?
247: There are people who are just flat out beautiful and/or photogenic (think of the Afghan Girl photo). And there are people who work hard at it and spend a lot of money ... I think Cala was saying that the hollywood set contains a lot of the latter, not that the former don't exist.
240: How true! And I even thought I should check the spelling, but then I started thinking about how I would script a movie about Theodore Adorno and I just...hit...post.
Fun Home is fantastic, although I am fonder of "Dykes To Watch Out For" because it's had such a long run in which to build up characters and settings.
243 is my impression as well.
245.--apostropher, you are aware that the Blogs for Bush people are all Balloon-Juice spoofers, right?
"O Bin Ogged"
It's clearly supposed to be "Oggedbino", the pale, red-eyed equivalent of Ogged.
253: Really? No, I wasn't aware of that.
re: 236
Scots themselves are pretty bad for this -- Billy Connolly used to say that Scots are the only culture in the world that buys their own shite tourist paraphernalia . It's not just a North American thing, we do it ourselves too.
The thing that always pisses me off is that Scotland is a deeply urban country. It might be 90% rolling hills and lochs but statistically speaking nobody actually lives in those bits. Yet the Scots heritage 'machine' relentlessly markets the culture of that more or less empty 90% of the country as the 'real Scotland'.
This is where I'd slip in some analogy, but apparently they're banned.
You may get some lip-service paid to Scottish achievements in science, engineering and the humanities but it tends to take second place to the tartan bollocks.
the tartan bollocks.
I had no idea. You have to admit that's unusual.
Yet the Scots heritage 'machine' relentlessly markets the culture of that more or less empty 90% of the country as the 'real Scotland'.
Just like the US!
re: 258
Its an unfortunate side-effect caused by the combination of the cold weather and the kilts we all wear. All the time.
I kind of like kilts actually (without all the associated nonsense), they are comfortable. I don't think I'd wear one because of the associations.
You're an Unbifurcated Garment man?
did none of you people notice that chun the unavoidable posted in this thread at 191? thechun the unavoidable, man!
191: "Wrath against the day of wrath", Romans 2:5 (KJV). Google is your friend.
