Maybe I should stop referring to you as "Shi'a." Sorry about that, Naturalized Patriot.
You think mere slashes will keep the Super-Google DH5 has from identifying this post? You know they Google themselves like 100 times a day
If Ogged gets disappeared, is it back to arguing about feminism instead of hot-or-not around here?
Two sides of the same coin, aren't they?
If Ogged gets disappeared
How do we know ogged wasn't disappeared, and the new, post-cancer ogged isn't a secret agent, or a robot?
Datapoint: The real ogged would have posted a link to the Jessica Biel's Ass web site last night.
Gloria Steinem looked pretty cute in that Bunny outfit.
How manly of you, Apo, to pose an unrealistic forced choice between two artificial alternatives.
Carol Gilligan: hot or not?
Anyone who writes an entire book about The Birth of Pleasure is hot, no matter what the Jungians say.
Poor Ogged. You know if he gets disappeared, we'll get all upset for a day or two, decide to work on freeing him from Guantanamo as a group, spend a few hours debating what color to make the headlines for posts about the project (I vote lavender) or whether to set up a separate subblog, and then forget all about him.
In advance: sorry, dude.
If ogged were disappeared, it would become a blogospheric cause célèbre: someone would make at least a couple hundred dollars on the "Free ogged!" Cafepress t-shirts!
The Lur are bitter enemies of the Ayatollahs and the core of the resistance movement in Iran. Homeland Security should have figured that out by now.
13: by some accounts they aren't quite certain who is Shia and who is Sunni... or what that means. Do you expect them to be troubled with all these trivial details?
12- Someone could probably make money on that even if the authorities never touch him.
14: I'm surprised they've figured out there are two Koreas.
>If Ogged gets disappeared, is it back to arguing about feminism instead of hot-or-not around here?
Finally, compelling reason to support civil liberties.
Sad but true: I sort of want ogged to get arrested so we can play A-Team. From baa to BA Baracus: sweet. Also, a reason to love Wikipedia is the fact that in the A Team article there's a link on "crime they didn't commit" going to the article on "miscarriage of justice."
Which commenter/poster makes the best Mr. T?
Weird -- I always though Hannibal Smith was played by Steve Martin. Apparently I was mistaken.
Back when I used to track these things, I got dhs hits all the time. Also, some other military intelligence site. Which is why I don't want a new MacBook. Also, I'm turning off my cell phone now. The little red lens looks a lot like a mini-HAL, come to think of it.
Hey, Labs, I got an important ethical question for you: Should professors, when at the office, dress like grown-ups?
Slol, are you ridiculing me in some way I'm not getting? I swear I'm wearing pants right now.
28: Of course, they're these pants, but still...
27: I hope you are not so grievously confused as to think that grown up = `business attire'. Otherwise, well... still no.
I would say that they should, but it's not clear to me that it's a moral "should," unless there's some special circumstance tying it to recognizable moral concerns. Just leave the clown suit at home, dude. Do I get to hear the story behind this?
30: dammit, my webcam really is being controlled by remote!
34: That's a lot of students. Is it a survey class?
I'm invested in this debate, too - what piercings are okay for profs to have? Don't want to alienate anyone who influences my tenure track.
Do I get to hear the story behind this?
Really, this falls under the heading of "slol, get your own blog." I don't really care what my colleagues wear (within reason). But I tend, especially on days when I have meetings or have to give public lectures, to wear a sportcoat or in extremis, a suit. Inevitably, one of my post-hippie colleagues will snark about this. "Looks like a banker," etc. Which of course only makes me want to dress more like a banker, because I'm just that way.
So I thought I'd ask.
Cheek is probably no good.
My lectures are SRO, dude, but mostly for the pyrotechnics.
I'm guessing the serious part of this conversation will end up being about the limits of moral demands, the distinction between moral requirements, professional norms, requirements of etiquette, and so on, and the ambiguities about the boundaries there. Also, what does "like a grownup" mean?
36: Any of these should probably be avoided.
33: To be fair, for me I think it really depends somewhat on what you consider `grown up'. So consider that `no', tentative, and based on experience of what people often seem to mean when they say `grown up'. I don't think it's an area in which form should be elevated above function, or that individualism should be suppressed. I think professors should dress in a way that isn't disrespectful of the classroom, or distracting. That leaves a lot of latitude though.
(I have a lip ring.) So far, first semester on the job, I take it out each morning.
36: ooh, me too. Students seem to like mine, but I haven't made a tenure run, so....
Also probably unacceptable.
43: We're like twins or something. I never take mine out.
Yeah, I guess I asked the wrong question. Really, I should have asked, should professors be allowed to dress as if they were persons of the world. I have a colleague who wears raver pigtails, crop tops, and tight jeans. Which worked better when he was south of 40 but... no, no. Which is fine with me, for her.
I'm just bemused by the resentment against those of us who, you know, resemble The Man.
Hey, Labs, I got an important ethical question for you: Should professors, when at the office, dress like grown-ups?
Depends on whether or not they have tenure.
37: funny, I think that when I teach it's a good idea to show that I take the occasion seriously. Since I move around a lot, etc., when I teach, a jacket is often too warm and too confining, but I go with a shirt, slacks, usually a tie. But I can't bring myself to say that this is a moral requirement since it's hard to see how dressing in a slovenly fashion would be ruled out by a plausible view of the foundations of morality. I guess if reasonable students were known to be likely to take it as an insult, or something.
See, I'm actually of the opinion that the untenured have more license to dress less soberly.
41 -- Man oh man, who pierces their baby's face?
46 - ring or stud? Left, right, or center?
52: someone with photoshop, that's who.
47: What sort of resentment?
Snark, of the aforementioned kind. Which is of course affectionate. And yet not. It bemuses me.
46: center, lower, ring. Tight one at the moment, sometimes a CBR though.
54 -- oh, that's a relief.
I hate that hippier-than-thou shit. It makes it more fun to dress like the man, though.
I think that when I teach it's a good idea to show that I take the occasion seriously.
Yeah, there's some of this. I'm also reminding *myself* that it's a serious occasion. Also, maybe, one's occasional wiseacre remarks carry more weight that way.
50: I completely reject the premise that dressing without a shirt and tie is slovenly.
It seems to vary by institution. At my undergraduate institution, professors tended towards the slacks-and-sportsjacket sort of look. Here, it's everything from studied hipster chic (most of the junior faculty) to 'being a senior prof means I don't need to own anything but jeans' to neat suits.
We usually send people out on the job market with the former sort of look. Tweedy, but not bankery. (What do we do with women job seekers? Good question.)
56 - Mines a CBR on the lower left side. I didn't take it out as a graduate student, but that was in town, and now I'm at Bitty U out of town.
Twins - are you male or female? I realize I don't actually know!
being a senior prof means I don't need to own anything but jeans
Or sweatsuits.
The prevailing sense seems to be, if I wear a sportcoat, it's not just me wearing a sportcoat, it's a comment on your *not* wearing a sportcoat. What's up with that, you hippie?
Some philosopher who has a blog tried to divide the fashion sense in philosophy as between the continentalists (dressed to the nines) and the analytics (schlubbing it.) I don't think this holds up.
I hate the "studied hipster" look almost as much as the "slovenly hippy" look. Dude, you have a PhD, show some self-respect by resisting the temptation to look like you're in GQ. I promise, there'll be time to stop by your hotel room to change into the club clothes before going out.
Of course, they're these pants, but still...
A woman in the front row was talking on her cell phone when Diamond Dave was playing the House of Blues in Myrtle Beach last summer. He took her cell phone, sang to it a bit, then stuck in down his pants, danced around a little, then fished it out and gave it back to the woman.
I'd like to know if it's ethical for instructors to do that when a student's phone rings in class?
FL, you seem to have a lot of fashion anger.
I'd like to know if it's ethical for instructors to do that when a student's phone rings in class?
Here's one way to deal with the cell in class. The teacher is clearly psychotic, but in this case, I support him.
63: that would be telling, wouldn't it ? (I guess you'll have to wait until the meetup to be certain).
CBR gets in the way more in the centre, I guess. I've actually taken a number of them out, now, but not out of any feeling of professional obligation. I briefly wondered about it after graduate school, but decided it was something to play by ear and institution. Not something I'm going to change out social disapproval, of course. If I felt it was getting in the way pedagogically, I would.
more on the general topic: I've noticed that too `banker-y', particularly in young faculty, can come off as trying to hard. Tweedy on the young always runs the risk of falling into tosser territory, I think. If you can pull either of comfortably though, go right ahead.
I believe I'd boil that phone before I held it up to my face after that.
And I have the urge to do what that professor did every time I hear a cell phone ring.
65: See, that's just weird to me.
66: If I recally correctly, the AI folk used to call these the neats and fuzzies.
When I taught college I always wore a jacket and tie to the lecture, but I often took the jacket off before starting. And by the time I was done the tie was pulled half way down, the collar was unbuttoned. Sweat poured off me and when I finally collapsed the TA came and draped my jacket over me. It was like the academic version of James Brown.
Those last two sentences were actually one of two things I wanted to do, but never quite had the guts to. The other was have the TA dress like a member of Security of the First World and have "Clear the Way for the Prophets of Rage" blasting when we walked into the lecture hall.
But the lecture, or class discussion is a bit of theater. How you present yourself to the students matters. So I wore a jacket and tie for both lectures and office hours. Otherwise I was pretty casual. But always neat except when hungover or when I had ended up crashing in the office. Then screw everyone else.
65: See, that's just weird to me.
Which is weird: the evident sense among my colleagues, or my annoyed reaction to it?
Maybe it the way you sneer at your less spiffed-up colleagues, slol, and not what you're wearing.
I do have a lot of fashion anger. In this case, it's more anti-academic anger that's triggered by posturing clothing choices.
I don't sneer at them except here, w-lfs-n.
65: The evident sense. I haven't run into that anywhere (in either direction)
Unsurpringly, I am frosted by academics who dress in a slovenly fashion, or worse, like the Swedish sociologists from the 1970s. You're an adult, you're a professional. Dress like it.
Also, re: 19, here's a brief preview of a scene from ogged's rescue.
I've noticed that too `banker-y', particularly in young faculty, can come off as trying to hard.
But the women graduate students probably think you're hot, or at least a sharp dresser.
I should point out, I guess, that in the case of the interactions I'm describing there's no power differential to speak of (everyone's senior) and they are, really, friendly. It just irks me anyway.
60 -> 84, if that's what you mean.
Different professions have different professional standards, baa.
62: All right, I'm voting for Jan 6th then. Although 85 I think answers my question.
Wow, I totally dress like a Swedish Sociologist from the 1970's. That's so awesome.
I'm sorely tempted to email in a neck-down self-portrait, so we can figure out if I'm wearing anything unintentionally aggressive. This cummerbund, for instance.
You're a professional -- dress like it.
Everybody's crazy about a sharp-dressed man.
Do it, slol! Smasher's already done it, so it's traditional.
Baa, it looks like our last stand arrives a little quicker than we expected, eh? These slovenly dressers have trapped us in this old warehouse and-- wait, what's this? a blowtorch and an old Chevy engine? I love it when a plan comes together! Also, your link is bad.
These slovenly dressers have trapped us in this old warehouse
That worked out poorly for the relatively sharp-dressed Reservoir Dogs, you know.
Your link to my rescue was broken, baa. Unless that was just your way of mocking me with the rescue that never comes.
You're an adult, you're a professional. Dress like it.
But as b-wo points out, what it means to 'dress like a professional' varies.
I pity the fool who wears sweatpants to office hours.
as b-wo points out
Oh and what am I, chopped liver?
baa is all about the broken links today.
Baa apparently pities Ch/ris Bo/bo/nich.
That link's not broken, Clownæ, it's just to a blogger-hosted pic.
That last contains the broken link. It kills me that I botched it, as I've been waiting to deploy ithere for a while.
>what it means to 'dress like a professional' varies.
Maybe across histories and cultures. But in North America, in the context of quasi-white-collar indoor activity, it really doesn't so much. Or at least, the range of professional (for men, at least) is pretty clear. It starts with a collared shirt, it ends with a suit and tie. If you're in that band, you usually are some version of appropriate.
It starts with a collared shirt, it ends with a suit and tie.
And don't forget the shoes.
baa, did you see that Jeane Kirkpatrick died today?
That's a rather wide range. (And completely useless for women.) That's everything from the collared *flannel* shirt to the three-piece suit. And there's just not the same sort of institutional pressures that, say, law firms apply to their young associates to squeeze them into the form of a lawyer.
(All of my friends who are now lawyers look like they went to school on how to dress the same.)
Unless, of course, academia is a counterexample to this claim. Maybe you think that dressing in this white-collar fashion is constitutive of being a professional—then maybe academics aren't professionals.
105 "today" s/b "late last night"
it ends with a suit and tie
So, even tweedy sportcoats are out? Or blazers? For academics? This seems wrong to me.
You see, baa? Your doctrinaire ways are cleaving even your allies in spe from you.
I don't know what "in spe" means, unless you're referring to "one of the true giants of Estonian progressive rock". Which, you know, wouldn't surprise me.
No, Slol, Bad Attitude A is claiming that there's a range of acceptable from collared button-down (don't even try to pretend that you thought a flannel was in this category, Cala) to a suit.
Here's a serious question: how much should a man spend for a blazer?
Is the collared button-down tucked into a pair of jeans?
and/or encased in a dowdy sweater?
But it's a flannel with collllllarrrrrrrr. Seriously, though. There's nothing wrong with dressing professionally. But while the hipster contingent doth irk, it would be a stretch to say that they're not neatly dressed or really inappropriate.
When I taught college I always wore a jacket and tie to the lecture, but I often took the jacket off before starting. And by the time I was done the tie was pulled half way down, the collar was unbuttoned. Sweat poured off me and when I finally collapsed the TA came and draped my jacket over me. It was like the academic version of James Brown.
I had one professor who, during almost every lecture, came in wearing a parka and gradually took it off while he was talking, seemingly unaware that he was doing it. A couple people started keeping track of what time he started to take it off and what time he finished. Finally around the beginning of March he came in without a parka and we were finally able to concentrate on his insanely boring step-by-step lectures about glycolysis and the Calvin cycle.
Yes, I agree that the hipster's problem is a different one.
113- as much as he can possibly afford.
113 -- Goodwill or Salvation Army?
Here's a serious question: how much should a man spend for a blazer?
$6.
Here's a serious question: how much should a man spend for a blazer?
Are we talking standard-issue blue wool 3-season blazer?
I haven't worn a blue blazer since I was in middle school. You're an adult, FL; Blue Blazers are for drinking.
What Slol is neglecting to tell you is that he looks totally hott in that sportjacket look and his co-workers are all sick of him hogging all of the RMP chili peppers.
the hipster contingent doth irk
Wardrobe by Irksome Ilk, Inc.
A couple people started keeping track of what time what time he finished.
Apparently I had this problem in at least one winter class: I would come into class freezing cold, so I'd keep on a blazer and a scarf, but then I'd get hot and gradually take everything off down to a t-shirt. I probably should have been more aware of how distracting that might have been.
how distracting that might have been
As all your students placed bets on when you would not stop at the t-shirt.
To elaborate, you certainly don't have to spend that much to get something that will look passable and wear well. $80? I don't know... haven't priced recently. But it's an item that will last forever, and -- unless you get something funky -- won't go out of style, and the cut and fabric in a higher quality item will make a noticeable difference. And this is presumably a staple item that you will wear with regularity (since you're one of the few civilized professors here). Amortize the additional cost over the life of the jacket and it's really not bad. I think you ought to spend as much as you can afford, and predict that although it might sting for a moment when you step to the register, you'll be immensely more pleased with the jacket for years to come, and glad you made the purchase.
I used to think as Ben in 124, but I have, in the past year, returned to the navy blazer.
I was looking for a blazer a while back. I think anything between $300-$600 will get you a nice one. Can you actually find stuff off the rack, Labs?
he looks totally hott in that sportjacket look
But not in others?
My $80 in 130 may have been low.
The link in 131 makes Brock's $80 estimate seem low.
133: Becks, was, I think, describing the sportjackety look she's seen you in, rather than other possible sportjackety looks. And she's perfectly right.
And she's perfectly right.
Mumble, shuffle. Aw, gee.
Thanks for the clarification, Labs. You're exactly right: I meant an inclusive range from nice shirt up to and terminating with suit and tie. The more traditional academic options (tie/no jacket, jacket/no tie, tie & jacket) in the middle.
On The Blazer Problem. The trouble with simple one-colored jackets is that the fabric needs to do a lot of work. Thus, price and quality are closely linked. I recommend economizing on pants/shirts and putting the savings to work on the blazer.
On Kirkpatrick. Sigh. Has anyone here read "Dictatorships and Double Standards?" Today you can read it for free on the Commentary website!
Today you can read it for free
...They will not pay me to read it? Mm, think I'll pass then.
The link in 131 makes Brock's $80 estimate seem low.
I recall from previous discussions that Labs is relatively price-insensitive on this subject.
Huh, thought you were bigger than that. I think I wear a 42 R.
The blazer in 131 does look like something a banker would wear, though.
College professors who can pull it off should take every advantage of the fact that they are part of the very small subset of people who can work a corduroy or tweed blazer with patches on the elbows. Worn well, that makes me go weak in the knees.
something a banker would wear, though
Strictly speaking, only after hours or at boating events. Bankers should wear suits. On this I have a firm opinion.
What does "a banker" mean, precisely? I am a banker in some sense (being employed by a bank and all), yet I do not wear a blazer. Nor would I.
No way does ogged have a bigger coat size than I do.
I have to wonder what Mr. Home/land Secur/ity agent is going to think of this thread.
147: "banker" = "someone who considers tie tacks/bars de rigeur".
148 -- he's bigger where it counts, too.
151 -- that is a weird definition, in that it does not mention the banking industry anywhere.
Mr. Ho/meland Secu/rity is probably going to feel tremendously hurt.
"44 L, O" and "42 R" are obviously snippets of assembly for the massive internet worm ogged and Labs are writing to bring down the government.
that is a weird definition, in that it does not mention the banking industry anywhere.
The question is, does it get the extension right?
"Banker" in this sense means i-banker or merchant banker.
You could find a nice jacket for ~$100 from the right sale rack (although it seems as if you're more concerned spending "too much" than with spending more than you can afford).
I've trained myself to go shopping about once a month, just to browse, rather than to wait until I am in dire need of a specific item. This allows me to buy everything at absurd markdowns, including dress clothes.
158 sounds like a really good strategy. Maybe I should start doing something like that.
I just checked. 44 is ok, but I think I'd go with 46 and have a little taken in if I were buying now.
I have bad luck with that sort of thing, since my size isn't so common. Do you actually go to various stores monthly?
89: 6th for a meetup you mean? That could work.
Browsing for clothes is something that many women do semi-regularly and that men could probably do rather more. If you look at clothes only once a year to buy a complete new set, you're going to get had.
One thing I think is missing from this thread is an acknowledgement that not only does `professional dress' vary; academically speaking there is variation across disciplines and regions or even particular institutions.
If you're the only man on campus wearing a bowtie daily, that saying something in much the same way as the only one wearing hippie skirts.
The point really shouldn't be any variant of conformism (which is hardly beneficial in this context) but only in how it relates to the environment that you are helping create for students. I find the idea that there is a universally correct answer for this implausible, at best.
once a year to buy a complete new set
Please! I am wearing pants I bought 5 years ago, and a shirt whose purchase is lost in the fog of memory.
re 141: you should read it. Especially given that realism is all the rage these days.
pants I bought 5 years ago
(at a garage sale.)
But in North America, in the context of quasi-white-collar indoor activity, it really doesn't so much. Or at least, the range of professional (for men, at least) is pretty clear. It starts with a collared shirt, it ends with a suit and tie. If you're in that band, you usually are some version of appropriate.
Does the software industry qualify as "quasi-white-collar indoor activity"? 'Cause IME the range you're talking about specifically does not apply to it. (Personally, I wouldn't trust a developer who regularly wore a suit and tie to work.)
For the record, this is the twice-failed link: http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/3841/751/1600/387527/MrTNeighborhood.jpg
It didn't fail the second time, baa. Clownæ just lacks web-fu.
170: It seems that claim is incorrect. There is also a noticeable east-west difference.
172 -- Ah, your mother...
did you see that Jeane Kirkpatrick died today?
Somewhere, a cat weeps.
158 is the way to buy clothes; though once a week is even better if you live near any good consignment shops.
I'm wearing a corduroy blazer today, though without arm patches, sadly.
You'll probably wear a bigger coat than I do when you're all grown up, Ben.
Do you actually go to various stores monthly?
There are a couple of decent malls in Apo's territory which I visit somewhat regularly, including all the usual suspects: Nordstrom, Macy's, Dillard's. Being a youngster, I also browse Banana Republic and J. Crew, where I get a fair bit of Casual Friday clothes.
I wear jeans to work every day, suckers.
I wear jeans to work every day, suckers.
Ditto. It's hard to imagine going back.
The one downside to wearing jeans to work every day is that on the rare occasion you do wear something nicer to work (say, if you're going out after work), your cow-orkers invariably start in with "So, where's the interview?"
Plus, everyone knows you have no self-respect.
180 -- In that situation, if you are in fact dressed up because you have an interview elsewhere, it is a very awkward feeling.
178, 179: I am not really in a position to complain (I wear cotton slacks and comfy loafers), but respectfully: fuck you.
"So, where's the interview?"
More commonly, "You got a court date?"
Plus, everyone knows you have no self-respect.
Perhaps in the shallow world you inhabit, Ben.
>It's hard to imagine going back.
What if you're driven there every day by a liveried footman?
185: Then your footmen don't have to wear jeans. In fact, you can make them wear whatever you want.
naturally. who's going to complain? (providiing nudity laws are obeyed, and hey...even then)
Off-topic for this thread, but never off-topic for this site:
The conclusion of all this scientific endeavour is that about 60% of Indian men have penises which are between three and five centimetres shorter than international standards used in condom manufacture. Doctor Chander Puri, a specialist in reproductive health at the Indian Council of Medical Research, told the BBC there was an obvious need in India for custom-made condoms, as most of those currently on sale are too large.
190. I would dearly love to share that with an India sex therapist (in training) friend, but I'm trying to hook her up with another Indian friend tonight. i guess i'll wait until after i've introduced them.
Huh -- I thought all non-whites were hung.
My Constitutional law professor typically wore plaid Bermuda shorts, a Hawaiian shirt and sandals. I should mention that he resembled Dom DeLuise. It was unnerving and gave new meaning to the phrase "freedom of expression".
The Biophysicist, back when he was teaching at Anonym U, used to wear his typical outfit of black jeans, a shirt and a leather jacket and lurk at the back of the classroom on the first day of class, listening to the new students exchange gossip about him. Being a bit of a sadist, it amused him to watch their faces when he wandered up to the front and they figured out he was Dr. Bio.
One of my youngest professors in law school always wore a suit and tie. I thought it was geeky, but maybe just because he was geeky.
Dom DeLuise as con law prof is hilarious.
I had a Torts professor who: (1) was Marxist, (2) talked a bit like Corky St. Clair in Waiting for Guffman, and (3) always wore jeans, and an Evidence professor who (1) would occasionally come in high, (2) whose warddrobe consisted ENTIRELY of identical black turtlenecks & brown pants to simplify his life, and (3) had us watch all of My Cousin Vinnie to teach us about being a trial lawyer, and the battle rap scene from 8 Mile to teach us how to do closing arguments. In both cases the clothes were kind of the least of it though.
My husband's econ department told their students when they went on a job market:
--buy the most expensive suit you can afford for the business school interviews, and shine your shoes
--do NOT wear that suit to econ dept interviews, and scuff your shoes.
He did not interview at business schools so he just took this as a license to wear Men's Wearhouse suits to all his interviews (but he looks damn good in a Men's Wearhouse suit.)...Teaches in a buttondown, no tie, and khakis or other non-jean-pants, I believe.
I get things custom-made for Husband X, but he is being a loser and refuses to go to the place and get measured (and then come back for a fitting when it's partially assembled). 2 hours out of his life, total, including travel time! but noooo, he's writing important blog posts papers. hmph. also, I am trying to talk him into a chalk stripe suit, but that really says "british ibanker". so hot, though. his loving wife is going to pick everything out and pick them up, but does he want handmade shirts and new pants? apparently not. and he refuses to buy a mobile phone even though he has a line and is paying for it each month, and I can't get it for him b/c I lack an employment pass. I think I'll go complain to him directly, as this is counter-productive.
I get things custom-made for Husband X, but he is being a loser and refuses to go to the place and get measured (and then come back for a fitting when it's partially assembled). 2 hours out of his life, total, including travel time! but noooo, he's writing important blog posts papers. hmph. also, I am trying to talk him into a chalk stripe suit, but that really says "british ibanker". so hot, though. his loving wife is going to pick everything out and pick them up, but does he want handmade shirts and new pants? apparently not. and he refuses to buy a mobile phone even though he has a line and is paying for it each month, and I can't get it for him b/c I lack an employment pass. I think I'll go complain to him directly, as this is counter-productive.
woops, double posted. now I sound really pissed off.
So chalk stripe suits feature bigger pinstripes? I'm never heard of such a thing, and despite owning several very nice suits, I wore ripped jeans to work today and yesterday.
If you can wear ripped jeans to work, why do you own several very nice suits?
200(!): Graduation presents. How were we all to know that Stanley's workplace environment would be "business casual," and that Stanley would interpret the word "business" quite liberally? But boy howdy, do I look dashing at weddings.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question but rather asked another, so I'm marking you down ten points as soon as comment-scoring is enabled.
So, what's up, everyone? Who's Becks-style?
Is there a term for apo-/Clownæ-style?
Luckily for me, inertia and the inherent conservatism of this blog will prevent comment-scoring from ever being enabled.
206: We could vote on it. And then not do it.
Man, I hope I get me some suits when I graduate.
Oh, and hey, m. leblanc! I second your motion to bring in the drunks and make it interesting.
If those interesting drunks don't show up soon I'll have to just go to bed.
212: Don't you have a beer left in the megendary teo six pack? Pound it! Woo!
(Not really.)
205: Hey!! I'll have you know that it's silvana style. I'm going into the hoohole now.
I'm in the hoohole. I can't find it! I hate this hoo and the hole it's in.
Well, my chalk-stripe-suit question goes unanswered, and Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow is gettting sort of silly. This night grows unsatisfactory.
Wish I could help you with the chalk-stripe question, but I am not an expert on suits.
By which I mean I only own one and it's purple.
I had a Leffe Blonde beer tonight. It tasted good. I also had "glogg", which was good, but bought for me by a weird pasty dude with braces that I kind of wanted to get away from. I visited three bars, and went to a concert, and ate fries with curry sauce. A totally satisfactory evening. Sorry, Stanley.
Fries with curry sauce? That sounds good.
222: I appreciate your sympathies. My S.O. and I each got a free drink at a bar in Harrisonburg tonight, so that's something.
I really should go to bed; I've got a long drive ahead of me. Good night, everyone.
I always thought chalk-stripee was just like pin-stripe only the stripes were less closely spaced, e.g. an inch or so apart rather than 1/4 inch or so apart.
jebus. we're still talking about suits? I've had entierlery too much bourbon for that
We can talk about bourbon instead. What kind of bourbon?
unfogged was laggy there for a few minutes for me ... you?
I'm all out of bourbon, but I have some Michter's rye.
I'm all out too, now. A few scotches around though...
what's the Mitchers like, by the way?
Holy crap, and y'all think *I'm* a snob because I think people should dress for the fucking opera.
Wear jeans and a tshirt to office hours if you like. And never, ever snark at people who are better-dressed than you are; that just makes you look like an ass.
Not as much of an ass as Labs, though, who's busy snarking at his more fashionable colleagues.
If you can wear ripped jeans to work, why do you own several very nice suits?
B/c he wants to get laid occasionally?
Hmph. I'm gone for a few days, and when I show up everyone ignores me.
I hate you all.
237: so the suits have talismanic power, or what?
No. Just a man in a well-fitted suit is teh hot. I have a revolting and shameful weakness for suited man/naked or scantily clad woman porn.
I do, in fact, get laid occasionally, ben. So, QED, etc.
Labs is totally busting out the Hickeys in DC.
There's "well-fitted suit" and then there's "go away, preppy."
Perhaps I will wear a suit to the unfoggeDcon…
Oh, Stanley, you definitely should. I'm debating between a teal velvet dress and a gold silk 50s vintage thing at the moment.
Also, now that I'm poking around the "Hickey Freeman" website (jesus, who in the fuck came up with that name?), I have to admit that the nipped waist and three-buttoned front here are quite the nice, despite the rather tweedy fabric.
I was completely honestly about to post that link here, B, and tell Labs he should buy it.
246: Three-button suits are indeed teh hott. Though if you're a portly gent, two-button jobs can be flattering, if not as cool.
That same specific jacket? Awesome. You should get one yourself.
If I had $1,800 to throw around on a single jacket, I might.
248: True, especially if you're really wide. A big guy in the dark-colored long-lapel suit can definitely make an impact, especially if the thing's cut well enough not to look like a sack.
What about the four-button? I confess to being an absolute slave to the trendy narrow suit.
Well, now, come on Ben. How much is it worth to you to look hot and swoon-worthy?
What about the four-button? I confess to being an absolute slave to the trendy narrow suit.
n=2. It's a shame to pay for a nice shirt-'n'-tie combo only to cover it up, but it is hott right now. I'm on board with you, B. But mostly I wear hoodies and ripped jeans as I trudge towards my cube.
I don't need any damn sport coat to look hot and swoon-worthy, B.
Ah, but the profit in covering the nice shirt & tie is that there's something to look forward to when you start unbuttoning the gentleman's suit, you see.
254: Must be why you're such a hit with the laydeez.
To bed! Buenos nachos and all that, everyone.
Indeedy. You know if you don't wear a suit, Stanley, I'm totally going to be disappointed.
4 buttons are too trendy. Three is very nice though, on a trim-bodied male.
In 194, Katherine made *absolutely* unambiguous which law school she attended, at least to any alumni thereof.
Next we should debate whether it is unethical to spend $2000 on a sports coat when there are starving children in Africa. I vote yes, but don't live my life in accordance with that.
You spend multiple thousands of dollars on clothing items? Wild.
(I'm kinda tight with a dollar -- the most I can remember spending on clothing is my leather jacket, which cost fewer than $200 and which I've been wearing upwards of 7 years now.)
Actually, I don't, generally. But the basic principle applies at lower cost points than that, I think.
(Do you own sub-$200 suits, or do you not own a suit? Either way, I'm not going to like the answer.)
And the seven year thing -- there's no question that the only items of clothing worth spending significant money on are those that will last, and be worn, for years.
By any standard, $2000 dollars is an insane amount for a sports jacket. I could walk into central Oxford and find half a dozen men's outfitters and buy an absolutely top of the line jacket, beautifully tailored by serious old-school tailors* and pay 25% of that.
* companies with Royal warrants, and shit.
when I show up everyone ignores me.
You showed up at 4 in the morning, yo.
re. 263: At this moment I don't think I own any suits that fit me properly -- I gained a lot of weight in the past two years. Before that I had two suits. One was purchased for $100 at Fowad, in 1993 or thereabouts; the other was a gift from my father-in-law for my birthday in 2000 and I believe with a fairly high degree of certainty that it cost more than $200. I am reluctant to go out and buy a suit to suit my new body shape because I'm sure (with a fairly high degree of pretend-world certainty) I'll get back in shape and then it wouldn't fit any longer.
re: 266
Been in that exact situation. I had one suit, for years. I put on weight, and couldn't fit in it (not even close). Finally bought a new one, a year or so ago, as I'd been persuaded I'd never fit back into the old one [or any other garment that size].
And now, ironically, I've lost a bunch of weight and my new suit is two sizes too big around the waist.
nattarGcM ttaM: feeding my pretend-world certainty.
My *wedding dress* cost less than $1000 (though it's not like the balance went to starving children in Africa).
Chalkstripe differs from pinstripe in that the stripes are not only more widely spaced, they're themselves wider and fainter. Think 40's gangster suit. I used to have a chalkstripe doublebreasted pantsuit with a nipped waist that I adored, but then had kids and couldn't get into it anymore.
central Oxford
Yes, well, nattarGcM, that's your advantage right there.
re: 271
Yeah, in terms of availability and convenient 'clustering' of that sort of stuff, definitely. But, if I'd so wished, I'm sure I could have found the same stuff in Glasgow -- with a bit more work.
I can't imagine that there's any shortage of shops in, say, New York. Or at least, not such a shortage that paying $2000 dollars for a standard tweedy sports jacket seems reasonable. $2000 is into bespoke price levels.*
* My own, and only, suit is from Marks and Spencers -- so at the opposite end of the price spectrum.
There's no good reason to pay $1800 for a sportcoat, unless you really want to be the kind of person who pays $1800 for a sportcoat. And you better hope you hang with a crowd that'll notice.
Isn't that true of most high-end clothing? Not that I have a wealth of experience (or, um, wealth) with this, but it seems to me that price tracks quality for a while, and then you're just paying so you can be noticed.
The price tracking quality thing can track quite a long way if you are buying something like a bespoke suit, hand made from scratch for you. Ditto with hand-made shoes, etc.
Other than that, yeah. My experience, and I've also never been wealthy enough to buy really expensive clothes, matches yours.
Well, I have lots of $900-$1000 jackets. Even my less dressy jackets still range $300-$400.
Of course, I also shop resale in Orange County, where everything is so last season like, within, days. (And where no one else shops resale, in my experience, except for Mexicans. This place is weird.)
Names? Crap. They're all in the Laguna Beach area. I could describe them, but I don't remember names. (I'm a one-day stand type clothes-horse.)
I do remember the one I go to in Houston's run by the Houston Junior Forum, but that doesn't help you much. When Meg returns, I'll ask her about the OC ones.
(I'm too lazy to go back to look up which comment said that economists interviewing with business schools should wear sharp suits, but that those interviewing with econ. departments should wear something more staid.) A day late and a dollar short, but when I was in college, many of the economics professors dressed like bankers. They weren't necessarily teaching at business schools either. Some of the more academic types wore tweedier outfits, but I think that they were signalling how important they were. You know, at any minute we could be called off to advise the president in Washington or save the world from the next big currency crisis, so we have to fit in with the most elite investment bankers. Or something.
Also, Michael Sandel (philosopher or political scientist?) wears amazing suits and shirts with French cuffs.
LB in 270: Think 40's gangster suit.
I have often wondered about the difference between British and American tastes vis a vis suits. What appears to be the height of conservative middle-class dressing in the UK seems hopelessly flashy and gangsterish to me.
On the subject of bespoke suits: has anyone experience with the Indian tailor shops which advertise on E-Bay that they will make suits to your measurements for remarkably little money? I remember feeling interested in buying one a couple of years ago and then not going through with it.
Clown, I think that Theresa NH wrote up a very positive experience with an Indian tailor she found online. She wasn't ordering a men's suit, obviously.
re: 280
Those suits aren't proper bespoke suits; the bespoke process is complicated and involves several fittings and the pattern itself is a one-off for a particular individual. Instead, with the Indian sutis it's a made-to-measure process that involves altering a standard pattern for a particular set of measurements. Bespoke tailors are pretty vocal about the difference. However, I've heard that the Indian made-to-measure suits are pretty decent for the money.
http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000016.html
281 -- Yeah, her article was what prompted me to look into it.
282 -- thanks for the info.
